:00:37. > :00:42.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:48.After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas
:00:49. > :00:51.in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not
:00:52. > :00:52.every building that fails will be evacuated.
:00:53. > :00:59.The government promises Britain will be a strong global
:01:00. > :01:01.trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,
:01:02. > :01:04.we'll ask the international trade minister how.
:01:05. > :01:09.As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status
:01:10. > :01:19.with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader
:01:20. > :01:21.We're approaching deadline day, not for one deal, but two.
:01:22. > :01:22.of terror attacks - what can be done to restore
:01:23. > :01:23.I'll be speaking to three of the parties hoping to get
:01:24. > :01:36.And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political
:01:37. > :01:38.pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,
:01:39. > :01:39.Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.
:01:40. > :01:43.They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.
:01:44. > :01:45.First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks
:01:46. > :01:50.across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,
:01:51. > :01:52.following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people
:01:53. > :02:00.According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks
:02:01. > :02:04.has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.
:02:05. > :02:08.The government plans to examine up to
:02:09. > :02:12.600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.
:02:13. > :02:15.The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth
:02:16. > :02:19.as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden
:02:20. > :02:23.and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services
:02:24. > :02:28.Camden has already evacuated residents from
:02:29. > :02:33.650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such
:02:34. > :02:35.as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before
:02:36. > :02:46.When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity
:02:47. > :02:53.and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national
:02:54. > :02:56.system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as
:02:57. > :03:00.muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is
:03:01. > :03:04.striking how every single building they test seems to fail these
:03:05. > :03:07.regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the
:03:08. > :03:12.regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is
:03:13. > :03:17.most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been
:03:18. > :03:20.told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were
:03:21. > :03:24.told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets
:03:25. > :03:28.outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation
:03:29. > :03:33.that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in
:03:34. > :03:38.instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about
:03:39. > :03:42.social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about
:03:43. > :03:47.the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.
:03:48. > :03:51.People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building
:03:52. > :03:56.regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable
:03:57. > :04:00.material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,
:04:01. > :04:06.America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of
:04:07. > :04:10.the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and
:04:11. > :04:14.this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for
:04:15. > :04:20.a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are
:04:21. > :04:24.several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting
:04:25. > :04:27.this stuff into housing associations, where the controls
:04:28. > :04:30.have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is
:04:31. > :04:33.build more homes and every government announces they are going
:04:34. > :04:38.to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of
:04:39. > :04:44.these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a
:04:45. > :04:47.crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,
:04:48. > :04:52.frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second
:04:53. > :04:56.look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had
:04:57. > :05:00.kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in
:05:01. > :05:05.fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national
:05:06. > :05:11.and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about
:05:12. > :05:14.residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm
:05:15. > :05:18.hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,
:05:19. > :05:24.there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the
:05:25. > :05:27.politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which
:05:28. > :05:34.is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the
:05:35. > :05:38.initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to
:05:39. > :05:41.make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the
:05:42. > :05:47.result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils
:05:48. > :05:50.who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national
:05:51. > :05:56.failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.
:05:57. > :06:00.Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been
:06:01. > :06:04.slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge
:06:05. > :06:07.potential for this to snowball especially if we have other
:06:08. > :06:13.buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in
:06:14. > :06:16.the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word
:06:17. > :06:22.austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his
:06:23. > :06:25.targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't
:06:26. > :06:27.take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.
:06:28. > :06:31.Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver
:06:32. > :06:34.a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global
:06:35. > :06:36.trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,
:06:37. > :06:40.David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get
:06:41. > :06:44.a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure
:06:45. > :06:48.from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just
:06:49. > :06:51.the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,
:06:52. > :06:53.French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,
:06:54. > :06:58.you name it. The balance of trade basically
:06:59. > :07:00.is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest
:07:01. > :07:09.in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,
:07:10. > :07:12.on all sides on trade. And I've been joined
:07:13. > :07:17.by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are
:07:18. > :07:19.five main national business organisations in Britain and all of
:07:20. > :07:25.them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the
:07:26. > :07:29.EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a
:07:30. > :07:34.difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is
:07:35. > :07:41.not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with
:07:42. > :07:46.ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to
:07:47. > :07:50.the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You
:07:51. > :07:56.can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to
:07:57. > :07:59.be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they
:08:00. > :08:03.will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade
:08:04. > :08:08.ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is
:08:09. > :08:13.very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.
:08:14. > :08:16.We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,
:08:17. > :08:21.you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the
:08:22. > :08:25.rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the
:08:26. > :08:30.same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you
:08:31. > :08:34.have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at
:08:35. > :08:38.the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like
:08:39. > :08:51.the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The
:08:52. > :08:55.Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the
:08:56. > :09:00.stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to
:09:01. > :09:04.the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the
:09:05. > :09:12.customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a
:09:13. > :09:23.customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the
:09:24. > :09:28.first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from
:09:29. > :09:32.outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm
:09:33. > :09:37.told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a
:09:38. > :09:41.novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.
:09:42. > :09:46.We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from
:09:47. > :09:50.no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To
:09:51. > :09:54.do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the
:09:55. > :10:00.Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single
:10:01. > :10:02.market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a
:10:03. > :10:11.transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get
:10:12. > :10:17.on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective
:10:18. > :10:20.we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying
:10:21. > :10:24.across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard
:10:25. > :10:26.interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want
:10:27. > :10:30.to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to
:10:31. > :10:35.do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able
:10:36. > :10:40.to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this
:10:41. > :10:45.transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it
:10:46. > :10:49.is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by
:10:50. > :10:53.the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition
:10:54. > :11:00.them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with
:11:01. > :11:03.America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at
:11:04. > :11:07.the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working
:11:08. > :11:10.through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current
:11:11. > :11:15.arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week
:11:16. > :11:19.was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk
:11:20. > :11:22.about the current trading relationship, how do we make things
:11:23. > :11:26.better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs
:11:27. > :11:29.work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start
:11:30. > :11:35.thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,
:11:36. > :11:42.can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We
:11:43. > :11:49.can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during
:11:50. > :11:53.the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what
:11:54. > :11:58.we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue
:11:59. > :12:06.between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU
:12:07. > :12:13.will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.
:12:14. > :12:17.Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with
:12:18. > :12:20.trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there
:12:21. > :12:28.is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and
:12:29. > :12:31.as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,
:12:32. > :12:35.what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed
:12:36. > :12:40.country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no
:12:41. > :12:48.tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we
:12:49. > :12:52.give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the
:12:53. > :12:58.EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,
:12:59. > :13:02.despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but
:13:03. > :13:07.the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place
:13:08. > :13:17.with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all
:13:18. > :13:20.the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we
:13:21. > :13:26.are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,
:13:27. > :13:34.since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I
:13:35. > :13:42.have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also
:13:43. > :13:48.called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do
:13:49. > :13:52.you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to
:13:53. > :13:56.harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that
:13:57. > :14:02.people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.
:14:03. > :14:06.What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make
:14:07. > :14:12.an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will
:14:13. > :14:16.the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to
:14:17. > :14:20.work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the
:14:21. > :14:25.immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK
:14:26. > :14:29.economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of
:14:30. > :14:33.reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the
:14:34. > :14:39.priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs
:14:40. > :14:44.of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say
:14:45. > :14:49.meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more
:14:50. > :14:52.important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to
:14:53. > :14:56.the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital
:14:57. > :15:03.error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer
:15:04. > :15:07.workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,
:15:08. > :15:12.and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a
:15:13. > :15:15.general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or
:15:16. > :15:22.keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a
:15:23. > :15:24.businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of
:15:25. > :15:29.business and the success of our economy that we can afford the
:15:30. > :15:32.social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work
:15:33. > :15:36.through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through
:15:37. > :15:40.Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target
:15:41. > :15:44.of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital
:15:45. > :15:50.changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.
:15:51. > :15:57.Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted
:15:58. > :16:01.to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this
:16:02. > :16:07.morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out
:16:08. > :16:10.the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the
:16:11. > :16:15.principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy
:16:16. > :16:21.or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime
:16:22. > :16:25.Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's
:16:26. > :16:30.speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will
:16:31. > :16:33.be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers
:16:34. > :16:39.and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and
:16:40. > :16:44.there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out
:16:45. > :16:49.of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to
:16:50. > :16:55.say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are
:16:56. > :17:01.two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you
:17:02. > :17:07.what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's
:17:08. > :17:09.aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank
:17:10. > :17:12.you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics
:17:13. > :17:14.in the general election, increasing Labour's share
:17:15. > :17:16.of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use
:17:17. > :17:19.the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy
:17:20. > :17:23.has been finding out. Enjoying superstar
:17:24. > :17:27.status at Glastonbury. Since when did being
:17:28. > :17:31.a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually
:17:32. > :17:37.about everyday life. It's about all of us
:17:38. > :17:40.and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want
:17:41. > :17:43.for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,
:17:44. > :17:52.playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer
:17:53. > :18:02.of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election
:18:03. > :18:05.glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting
:18:06. > :18:12.in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader
:18:13. > :18:21.now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead
:18:22. > :18:23.in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader
:18:24. > :18:29.for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world
:18:30. > :18:39.is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann
:18:40. > :18:42.MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,
:18:43. > :18:45.is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling
:18:46. > :18:48.in the Labour Party, and there are people on both
:18:49. > :18:50.sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing
:18:51. > :18:54.better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his
:18:55. > :18:57.position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential
:18:58. > :19:01.Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress
:19:02. > :19:04.which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says
:19:05. > :19:06.now the party is more In the general election,
:19:07. > :19:26.the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot
:19:27. > :19:28.forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign
:19:29. > :19:31.pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull
:19:32. > :19:35.together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,
:19:36. > :19:38.staying up for the summer #. Before the election,
:19:39. > :19:41.a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and
:19:42. > :19:44.anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked
:19:45. > :19:47.into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine
:19:48. > :19:50.Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,
:19:51. > :19:52.attack the party staff, change the party rules,
:19:53. > :19:54.will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more
:19:55. > :19:57.interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that
:19:58. > :20:01.unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,
:20:02. > :20:05.is led from the top. The way in which internal
:20:06. > :20:10.hostilities would recommend The way in which internal
:20:11. > :20:13.hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return
:20:14. > :20:16.to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts
:20:17. > :20:20.to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors
:20:21. > :20:22.are going to fight If there are attempts to cross
:20:23. > :20:30.a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,
:20:31. > :20:32.again that would cause And if there are attempts to change
:20:33. > :20:42.the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan
:20:43. > :20:45.advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,
:20:46. > :20:48.but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball
:20:49. > :20:51.is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate
:20:52. > :20:54.at conference, though, on what some are calling
:20:55. > :20:56.the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower
:20:57. > :20:59.the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have
:21:00. > :21:06.been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate
:21:07. > :21:09.to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference
:21:10. > :21:20.is finely balanced on that. Because the elections
:21:21. > :21:22.for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge
:21:23. > :21:25.between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those
:21:26. > :21:28.around the 9th of July And then it all depends
:21:29. > :21:35.on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like
:21:36. > :21:38.the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite
:21:39. > :21:45.and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn
:21:46. > :21:57.supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another
:21:58. > :21:59.general election within six months and are remaining
:22:00. > :22:01.in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting
:22:02. > :22:04.new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists
:22:05. > :22:06.in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing
:22:07. > :22:09.new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get
:22:10. > :22:11.involved in the election. Safe to say, they're
:22:12. > :22:13.feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly
:22:14. > :22:18.opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words
:22:19. > :22:20.and have apologised. Look, in the general election
:22:21. > :22:24.campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates
:22:25. > :22:31.in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they
:22:32. > :22:36.stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates
:22:37. > :22:39.who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats
:22:40. > :22:45.for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way
:22:46. > :22:48.we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last
:22:49. > :22:52.till the next election because we all want to
:22:53. > :22:54.win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,
:22:55. > :23:02.staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,
:23:03. > :23:06.but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor
:23:07. > :23:11.to Labour winning power? Before the general election
:23:12. > :23:19.was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party
:23:20. > :23:27.was played out in the election of the general secretary
:23:28. > :23:29.of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,
:23:30. > :23:36.who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,
:23:37. > :23:38.faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour
:23:39. > :23:40.moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,
:23:41. > :23:42.and this week he was sacked from his Unite position
:23:43. > :23:49.as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been
:23:50. > :23:55.the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by
:23:56. > :24:00.that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed
:24:01. > :24:05.for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about
:24:06. > :24:10.nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it
:24:11. > :24:15.showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's
:24:16. > :24:18.a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for
:24:19. > :24:23.misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's
:24:24. > :24:27.because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the
:24:28. > :24:32.evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the
:24:33. > :24:36.union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in
:24:37. > :24:42.relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and
:24:43. > :24:46.no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own
:24:47. > :24:52.independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond
:24:53. > :25:01.parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused
:25:02. > :25:09.of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."
:25:10. > :25:12.What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision
:25:13. > :25:18.reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the
:25:19. > :25:22.involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in
:25:23. > :25:26.terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of
:25:27. > :25:31.quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So
:25:32. > :25:35.actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe
:25:36. > :25:42.I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show
:25:43. > :25:47.trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the
:25:48. > :25:51.proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the
:25:52. > :25:56.different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our
:25:57. > :26:00.members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They
:26:01. > :26:04.wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a
:26:05. > :26:12.different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes
:26:13. > :26:15.but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters
:26:16. > :26:20.that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a
:26:21. > :26:25.legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make
:26:26. > :26:30.sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you
:26:31. > :26:35.think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the
:26:36. > :26:38.certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the
:26:39. > :26:44.result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in
:26:45. > :26:47.the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification
:26:48. > :26:52.Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High
:26:53. > :27:00.Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I
:27:01. > :27:03.think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this
:27:04. > :27:09.certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High
:27:10. > :27:13.Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it
:27:14. > :27:17.say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be
:27:18. > :27:25.sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a
:27:26. > :27:31.robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for
:27:32. > :27:36.it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the
:27:37. > :27:40.election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and
:27:41. > :27:44.for most employees if they have had that length of service, some
:27:45. > :27:50.consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been
:27:51. > :27:55.re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.
:27:56. > :28:01.Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a
:28:02. > :28:07.key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've
:28:08. > :28:10.lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general
:28:11. > :28:14.election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about
:28:15. > :28:19.a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the
:28:20. > :28:24.party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an
:28:25. > :28:29.influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that
:28:30. > :28:33.starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the
:28:34. > :28:36.electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than
:28:37. > :28:41.being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what
:28:42. > :28:46.you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the
:28:47. > :28:51.Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The
:28:52. > :28:56.reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the
:28:57. > :29:01.disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in
:29:02. > :29:03.Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically
:29:04. > :29:08.linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a
:29:09. > :29:11.much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a
:29:12. > :29:16.member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed
:29:17. > :29:22.from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?
:29:23. > :29:27.That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?
:29:28. > :29:31.I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear
:29:32. > :29:38.from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have
:29:39. > :29:42.felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's
:29:43. > :29:45.important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure
:29:46. > :29:50.they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being
:29:51. > :29:54.with us. I've been joined now from Leeds
:29:55. > :30:06.by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy
:30:07. > :30:10.Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he
:30:11. > :30:17.use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why
:30:18. > :30:22.would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,
:30:23. > :30:26.if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow
:30:27. > :30:29.Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are
:30:30. > :30:33.vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the
:30:34. > :30:40.man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for
:30:41. > :30:43.the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also
:30:44. > :30:47.wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable
:30:48. > :30:53.decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour
:30:54. > :30:59.member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and
:31:00. > :31:05.that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There
:31:06. > :31:11.will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,
:31:12. > :31:14.when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned
:31:15. > :31:19.against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party
:31:20. > :31:24.reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is
:31:25. > :31:28.a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we
:31:29. > :31:32.will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be
:31:33. > :31:36.clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was
:31:37. > :31:39.previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction
:31:40. > :31:43.in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you
:31:44. > :31:50.say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.
:31:51. > :31:54.He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not
:31:55. > :32:01.going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have
:32:02. > :32:07.got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a
:32:08. > :32:10.piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has
:32:11. > :32:14.changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.
:32:15. > :32:19.The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the
:32:20. > :32:23.many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election
:32:24. > :32:26.campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the
:32:27. > :32:30.new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the
:32:31. > :32:35.changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say
:32:36. > :32:39.this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools
:32:40. > :32:49.and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the
:32:50. > :32:52.leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not
:32:53. > :32:59.going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want
:33:00. > :33:02.that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last
:33:03. > :33:09.couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER
:33:10. > :33:12.They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to
:33:13. > :33:16.listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics
:33:17. > :33:19.has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard
:33:20. > :33:25.Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the
:33:26. > :33:29.problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair
:33:30. > :33:34.years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across
:33:35. > :33:38.the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve
:33:39. > :33:41.them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the
:33:42. > :33:47.last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a
:33:48. > :33:50.problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about
:33:51. > :33:57.that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker
:33:58. > :34:00.for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of
:34:01. > :34:03.these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people
:34:04. > :34:08.and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move
:34:09. > :34:14.to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will
:34:15. > :34:18.see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.
:34:19. > :34:24.Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a
:34:25. > :34:27.long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants
:34:28. > :34:35.to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to
:34:36. > :34:39.express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election
:34:40. > :34:43.it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on
:34:44. > :34:47.the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or
:34:48. > :34:52.the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That
:34:53. > :34:56.is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look
:34:57. > :35:02.carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate
:35:03. > :35:07.will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the
:35:08. > :35:15.Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is
:35:16. > :35:18.suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change
:35:19. > :35:23.it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have
:35:24. > :35:28.different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in
:35:29. > :35:32.action and what happened in the general election showed the idea
:35:33. > :35:35.that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than
:35:36. > :35:43.doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election
:35:44. > :35:48.in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of
:35:49. > :35:57.votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.
:35:58. > :36:03.Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I
:36:04. > :36:07.have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people
:36:08. > :36:12.especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.
:36:13. > :36:17.Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John
:36:18. > :36:20.McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of
:36:21. > :36:25.the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a
:36:26. > :36:30.letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?
:36:31. > :36:36.That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to
:36:37. > :36:38.have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within
:36:39. > :36:44.the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on
:36:45. > :36:50.membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I
:36:51. > :36:55.will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any
:36:56. > :37:02.particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will
:37:03. > :37:06.see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another
:37:07. > :37:09.in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit
:37:10. > :37:13.which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which
:37:14. > :37:21.working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was
:37:22. > :37:26.asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of
:37:27. > :37:32.the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which
:37:33. > :37:36.exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs
:37:37. > :37:40.union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is
:37:41. > :37:45.something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or
:37:46. > :37:51.against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question
:37:52. > :37:58.of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our
:37:59. > :38:05.economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against.
:38:06. > :38:11.The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame
:38:12. > :38:17.for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the
:38:18. > :38:23.same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of
:38:24. > :38:26.Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what
:38:27. > :38:29.happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and
:38:30. > :38:33.I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though
:38:34. > :38:40.something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we
:38:41. > :38:46.can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils,
:38:47. > :38:55.that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the
:38:56. > :38:57.government have sat on the recommendations, like the
:38:58. > :39:02.recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those
:39:03. > :39:10.documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties
:39:11. > :39:14.should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a
:39:15. > :39:18.national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained
:39:19. > :39:23.the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should
:39:24. > :39:27.do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better,
:39:28. > :39:30.but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public
:39:31. > :39:33.inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks
:39:34. > :39:41.for joining us. It's just gone 1140,
:39:42. > :39:51.you're watching the Sunday Politics. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:39:52. > :39:53.in Northern Ireland. As the clock ticks
:39:54. > :39:55.towards Thursday's deadline to get the Stormont institutions
:39:56. > :40:03.up and running again, Sinn Fein and the SDLP say the DUP's
:40:04. > :40:06.negotiations with the Conservative Party are distracting
:40:07. > :40:08.from the process here. There were more talks
:40:09. > :40:10.at Stormont yesterday - so can the parties make a final push
:40:11. > :40:13.and do a deal this week? We'll hear the thoughts of the SDLP,
:40:14. > :40:16.the Ulster Unionist Party And joining me to try and work out
:40:17. > :40:21.if we're on course for one deal, two deals or no deals at all,
:40:22. > :40:23.are Felicity Huston So far this year, we've had two
:40:24. > :40:31.elections, seemingly endless rounds of talks and potential deals
:40:32. > :40:34.on either side of the Irish Sea. But what can we expect to happen
:40:35. > :40:41.at Westminster and Stormont? I'm joined by Nichola Mallon
:40:42. > :40:44.from the SDLP, the Ulster Unionist Party's Steven Aiken
:40:45. > :40:56.and Kellie Armstrong from Alliance. And perhaps they can share that
:40:57. > :40:57.knowledge with all of us. Thank you for joining us.
:40:58. > :41:02.So what hope have we of a deal at Stormont by this week's deadline?
:41:03. > :41:10.I think if you are listening and taking a sincere message coming from
:41:11. > :41:16.the political parties, then people are willing and ready to do a deal.
:41:17. > :41:21.Ultimately, whether a deal or delete my son and up comes down to the DUP
:41:22. > :41:25.and Sinn Fein. There are no surprises. We are in the final
:41:26. > :41:31.countdown and people are expecting the parties to Act responsible with
:41:32. > :41:38.their mandates. You except that it does that turn to Sinn Fein and the
:41:39. > :41:43.DUP? Of course. The SDLP has been willing and engaged and we would try
:41:44. > :41:46.to provide solutions and ideas to a number of the issues that are
:41:47. > :41:50.outstanding. Ultimately it comes down to whether the DUP and Sinn
:41:51. > :41:51.Fein can reach a deal and deliver Government for the people of
:41:52. > :41:52.Northern Ireland. Aren't your parties in the ringside
:41:53. > :41:54.seats, well-positioned to spectate on the action between the players
:41:55. > :42:00.who really matter? It is down to the DUP and Sinn Fein.
:42:01. > :42:04.The good news is, they are still talking. They were talking yesterday
:42:05. > :42:10.and we haven't heard any talks of issues of crisis or anything. They
:42:11. > :42:13.have been talking for months. I know that. The only people who can solve
:42:14. > :42:18.those are the DUP and Sinn Fein. We're been working on the sidelines
:42:19. > :42:22.trying to input into the process to try and get it going. We're been
:42:23. > :42:25.talking very closely with the two governments. It comes down to or it
:42:26. > :42:29.is down to the DUP and Sinn Fein. The fact is, they have been talking
:42:30. > :42:34.on Friday and yesterday. Hopefully we are going to get something, but
:42:35. > :42:36.it's getting very tight and time is getting pressed. Particularly if
:42:37. > :42:48.they want to have an all inclusive Government going forward. They are
:42:49. > :42:51.talking and have been doing so very long time. Do you actually believe
:42:52. > :42:57.that these two parties actually want to sign up to some kind of deal
:42:58. > :43:03.sooner rather than later? They say they do, do they actually mean that?
:43:04. > :43:05.It does come across as being extremely frustrating. It's
:43:06. > :43:08.frustrating for us. These are the biggest parties with the biggest
:43:09. > :43:11.mandates. They are the people who will bring us forward into
:43:12. > :43:15.Government. At this moment in time, I read getting a very clear feeling
:43:16. > :43:20.from them that they want back into Government? It appears so, but that
:43:21. > :43:23.is all it is. On Friday we were expecting to do a lot more
:43:24. > :43:27.clarification on those stocks, and that was delayed. Perhaps on Monday
:43:28. > :43:32.we might have something more. At this stage, it is down to them. What
:43:33. > :43:34.I have to say is, if they are committed to a multiparty
:43:35. > :43:48.Government, they would have to be including these parties. Book-mac I
:43:49. > :43:52.spoke to a senior figure in the DUP who said that Stormont doesn't
:43:53. > :43:56.matter so much now. We are basically pulling the strings at Westminster,
:43:57. > :43:59.unless Sinn Fein agree to our view of things, we will not go back into
:44:00. > :44:03.Government. Why would we let them back in again when we are in a
:44:04. > :44:07.strong position? I would say to anybody in the DUP, there is no
:44:08. > :44:10.point in going to Westminster and come back with nothing. They will
:44:11. > :44:15.have nothing to shout but there isn't a Stormont Assembly. Their
:44:16. > :44:21.wins, what they have negotiated for the have nothing to come back to.
:44:22. > :44:26.Maybe in the short-term. Sinn Fein at this particular individual is
:44:27. > :44:29.said to me I very much on the back foot and nowhere to turn. A couple
:44:30. > :44:34.of months ago, Sinn Fein didn't really want back into Stormont,
:44:35. > :44:41.according to this individual, and the DUP debt. A week is a very
:44:42. > :44:44.short-term and politics. If he had said a week ago was a DUP and a
:44:45. > :44:50.Conservative Party deal on the cards? You could have said yes. This
:44:51. > :44:52.is a deal between the DUP and Theresa May, not the rest of the
:44:53. > :44:56.Conservative Party. They should have done the deal by now. There are
:44:57. > :45:00.obviously issues that need to be sorted out. We need to get the point
:45:01. > :45:05.where we have a delivery mechanism. I would be delighted if the DUP came
:45:06. > :45:09.back with ?2 billion ?1.5 for infrastructure or health, but unless
:45:10. > :45:13.you have an Executive and an Assembly up and running to deliver
:45:14. > :45:28.it, it's pointless. And it will be delivered by director or ministers.
:45:29. > :45:39.For openness and transparency... Is it the toxic impact? Your party and
:45:40. > :45:45.Sinn Fein said it is knocking this process of the reels. We would have
:45:46. > :45:48.seen the colour and detail of it but for now. There are constant
:45:49. > :45:52.briefings and difference in briefing from the DUP and Conservatives
:45:53. > :45:55.around this. How can you move forward when you can't see the
:45:56. > :46:00.detail of that? Looks like you can sign up to a Stormont deal until you
:46:01. > :46:04.have seen the Westminster deal, is that they? I think anyone who would
:46:05. > :46:07.countenance doing that is quite foolish. They would be doing that?
:46:08. > :46:11.We have been very clear that we need to see the diesel around it. We
:46:12. > :46:18.couldn't possibly sign up to something and mostly obscenely
:46:19. > :46:21.detail. -- unless we had seen the detail. Seven months ago we wrote
:46:22. > :46:26.all with the wonderful Billy shisha between the DUP and Sinn Fein in
:46:27. > :46:30.Government, then we lurched into crisis. The hear all this talk about
:46:31. > :46:34.respect and integrity. Now we are in a situation where parties are
:46:35. > :46:39.briefing, but the key issue is that is not about your own interests as a
:46:40. > :46:43.political party, is about what is in the interest here. That is what is
:46:44. > :46:48.failing. It is the poster that? Its people when they go to hospital,
:46:49. > :46:52.children died the Act to get it in schools and they are the most
:46:53. > :46:53.important people in this. -- children trying to be educated in
:46:54. > :46:55.schools. At the end of the day
:46:56. > :46:57.you have no role regarding the Westminster talks -
:46:58. > :47:00.and the deal at Stormont, if there is one, will be
:47:01. > :47:02.between the DUP and Sinn Fein... Aren't you really just sitting
:47:03. > :47:06.waiting for a deal at Stormont and then the DUP and Sinn Fein
:47:07. > :47:09.to sign off on the return Between them, the DUP
:47:10. > :47:16.and Sinn Fein have well over half of Assembly seats -
:47:17. > :47:18.55 out of 90. Between them they have 56%
:47:19. > :47:20.of the Assembly vote. In Westminster those two parties
:47:21. > :47:26.have 17 of 18 seats - Root those of us have been talking
:47:27. > :47:29.to different parties, bringing different papers, trying to get them
:47:30. > :47:31.over the line. Trying to help them? To help the people of Northern
:47:32. > :47:33.Ireland. Without it working Northern Irish Government we don't have
:47:34. > :47:37.anyone to speak to us and the Dems are Brexit, we don't have anybody
:47:38. > :47:42.fighting for our committee when it comes to hospital waiting lists. Our
:47:43. > :47:45.priority as I party is for Northern Ireland. Is there a blueprint at the
:47:46. > :48:05.moment? Is something you're working towards?
:48:06. > :48:11.We have been working towards that. The DUP and Sinn Fein are bumping
:48:12. > :48:17.heads together. Either compromising on issues like a Bill Rights,
:48:18. > :48:20.legacy, Arlene Foster going back into the Executive office as First
:48:21. > :48:25.Minister or not as Sinn Fein would have it, publicly at least? At this
:48:26. > :48:30.moment in time, all I can say is that those two parties have close
:48:31. > :48:34.themselves away behind doors. Do you believe they are compromising and
:48:35. > :48:40.getting into dotting the Ayes and crossing that he's? I would be
:48:41. > :48:43.absolutely disgusted as a politician if they are not, because if we are
:48:44. > :48:47.not committed to Northern Ireland, why did they stand and get those
:48:48. > :48:50.agreements? We expect to hear if they are committed to a multiparty
:48:51. > :48:56.Government then they will be opening up about that. That will require
:48:57. > :48:59.compromise. That will require both parties who have read lines moving
:49:00. > :49:05.away from those and then then have to sell that to their voters. They
:49:06. > :49:09.will have to come some things. Our understanding is that they are in
:49:10. > :49:13.talks. Both sides are moving now. How much they will move, is it going
:49:14. > :49:17.to be good work, I don't mean any body knows it. I think there is a
:49:18. > :49:22.willingness to some degree to make it work and we as the parties on the
:49:23. > :49:26.peripheral are there to help them get that point, but time is very
:49:27. > :49:30.short. We are in a situation where we are going to have to start making
:49:31. > :49:33.decisions. On Monday, we are having a Round Table meeting, then was
:49:34. > :49:39.having a meeting with the Speaker to start getting things organised
:49:40. > :49:48.moving forward. There is a timetable to achieve Government by 4pm. That
:49:49. > :49:51.is the deadline? We have now heard from Sinn Fein that the deadline is
:49:52. > :49:54.to say, because when saying Thursday, the secretary of state and
:49:55. > :49:58.the DUP are going to vote on the Queen's speech. Is more important to
:49:59. > :50:02.get things done in the time that they need to be done. On Thursday,
:50:03. > :50:07.you need to be electing a speaker, a Deputy Speaker, doing the whole
:50:08. > :50:10.process, first and Deputy First Minister. Wednesday is going to be
:50:11. > :50:15.very difficult to do things, because it is the Queen's speech. We're
:50:16. > :50:21.looking at is it. Worry careers this deadline as we have with every other
:50:22. > :50:26.and we talked next week, next month. We hear that this could be resolved
:50:27. > :50:30.in 24 hours. I had a pound for every time it politician told me that. I
:50:31. > :50:37.now get bigger terrible that we don't have a representative from the
:50:38. > :50:43.and Sinn Fein. To be fair, we wanted to speak to the three of you today
:50:44. > :50:47.rather than to them. I can tell you that at the SDLP, we're been trying
:50:48. > :50:53.to get resolution. We're been trying to resolve difficulties around equal
:50:54. > :50:57.marriage. We have said the need to be a new way of doing business
:50:58. > :51:01.friendly Executive. We have asked for more childcare places, free
:51:02. > :51:07.childcare places... That is not a red line for anybody. Those are
:51:08. > :51:12.important issues for people and they are important for the SDLP. The
:51:13. > :51:16.important for us. If we want an inclusive Executive, then we need to
:51:17. > :51:18.have an Executive that resolves bigger political issues, but also
:51:19. > :51:30.deals with key issues affecting everyday lives.
:51:31. > :51:36.To the big issues are the Irish language Act and whether or not
:51:37. > :51:39.Arlene Foster can come back as First Minister. Do you get any sense that
:51:40. > :51:44.there could be copper mines issues? Whenever I speak to the DUP order
:51:45. > :51:49.Sinn Fein, they are adamant there will be no resigning from this data
:51:50. > :51:56.positions. -- could be compromises. You know very well that they
:51:57. > :51:59.disappear like snow in a ditch. There were very clear strong
:52:00. > :52:08.utterances about the importance of a Bill of Rights, not returning to be
:52:09. > :52:11.started school. We're sitting close to the final deadline, are we going
:52:12. > :52:18.to see those things I will birdie, might as? When you listen to what
:52:19. > :52:23.they say publicly, there are are moving a bit. We can only speculate,
:52:24. > :52:27.come Thursday we will see. By the public but isn't it, positive noises
:52:28. > :52:32.going to be translated into action? As far as opposition versus
:52:33. > :52:36.Government is concerned, if this deal sticks, you would have a right
:52:37. > :52:41.to be back in Government within the Ulster Unionist Party, you would
:52:42. > :52:45.within the SDLP, you might get there, but it wouldn't be as of
:52:46. > :52:49.right. That is the position at the moment. Would you take up that
:52:50. > :52:52.Executive position if the cards fell the way you would like them to fall
:52:53. > :52:56.and we are collecting is bigger and going back to Stormont on Thursday?
:52:57. > :53:05.We need to see what the likely agreement is going to be. But
:53:06. > :53:10.feeling? --. Feeling. Being opposition was a disaster. We want
:53:11. > :53:15.to do what's best for Northern Ireland need to get in a position to
:53:16. > :53:18.do that. We need to see the agreement, we need to the warrior
:53:19. > :53:24.being asked to do. We can go into Government of don't solve the issues
:53:25. > :53:27.of openness and transparency. Your gut feeling must be that you would
:53:28. > :53:32.like to be in Government if he could be persuaded that that was the right
:53:33. > :53:37.thing to do. We want to do is best for Northern Ireland in if we can do
:53:38. > :53:46.that, we will. It makes my queer dissembling. It does. We need to
:53:47. > :53:50.know what's being in agreement. Everybody wants to be in Government.
:53:51. > :53:53.I don't think that is what people are saying, but ever the want to be
:53:54. > :53:58.in Government. Do read the SDLP want to be part of the Executive in the
:53:59. > :54:03.way it was so dysfunctional before aware there was no respect? It was
:54:04. > :54:10.multiparty, but only two birdies got all the credit. Absolutely not. If
:54:11. > :54:14.there is a new way of doing business, then yes. What is your gut
:54:15. > :54:18.feeling about where the Alliance Party would like to position itself
:54:19. > :54:23.if devolution gets up and running? We're been clear, there are certain
:54:24. > :54:27.things that we need to see before we can go back into Government. If
:54:28. > :54:34.there ares can deliver on those then we will not go back in. You're quite
:54:35. > :54:41.happy to be on the Opposition benches holding a Sinn Fein and DUP
:54:42. > :54:45.Coalition to account? Yes. We would prefer that some of the things that
:54:46. > :54:47.we had asked for, if they had accepted them last time, then we
:54:48. > :54:50.wouldn't have had a collapsed Assembly.
:54:51. > :54:54.Well, listening to that, my guests of the day -
:54:55. > :54:57.Chris, does that conversation fill you with confidence there'll be
:54:58. > :55:12.I think it's a difficult situation for the three parties at the moment
:55:13. > :55:15.outside the building, looking in through the windows as the
:55:16. > :55:19.negotiations are going on between the DUP and the two governments.
:55:20. > :55:26.These parties have had difficult elections and the range from
:55:27. > :55:30.disappointing for Alliance to disastrous for the SDLP. A plague on
:55:31. > :55:34.both your houses clearly isn't working when attacking Sinn Fein and
:55:35. > :55:38.the DUP. I don't detect any real sense of urgency that there will be
:55:39. > :55:43.a deal on behalf of the DUP order Sinn Fein this week. You don't think
:55:44. > :55:50.it is a real deadline on Thursday? So. I Think The Dup Wants To Get
:55:51. > :55:56.Westminster Sorted Out And Sinn Fein... Those Parties Will Be Wary
:55:57. > :55:57.Of Any Deal That Comes To Westminster And Will Want To Study
:55:58. > :56:03.Westminster And Will Want To Study At First.
:56:04. > :56:05.Felicity, surely there cannot be a deal to restore the Assembly
:56:06. > :56:14.It's complicated. I think we should be able to settle in Northern
:56:15. > :56:21.Ireland without having to worry about what's going on. But in the
:56:22. > :56:24.real world? I suspect not. I think the two main parties will have such
:56:25. > :56:26.an eye on what's happening in Westminster and who knows whether
:56:27. > :56:30.the Prime Minister currently will still be the Prime Minister next
:56:31. > :56:37.week, etc. There is such chaos there that I think it makes it difficult.
:56:38. > :56:40.My concern is that if the Assembly still isn't organised and sorted out
:56:41. > :56:44.by the end of the month, I think everybody will just forget about it.
:56:45. > :56:45.It will be something that clutters up the place, achieves nothing and
:56:46. > :56:47.is abandoned. You're, broadly speaking,
:56:48. > :56:49.a Conservative supporter - do you think the Tories
:56:50. > :57:02.are handling these two processes I think they are not handling very
:57:03. > :57:05.much in an exemplary manner. If I was doing it, I wouldn't do it like
:57:06. > :57:10.this. You wouldn't start from here. I think that has been the problem.
:57:11. > :57:13.Weird all expected and anticipated the deal at Westminster would be
:57:14. > :57:17.sorted out within a couple of days after the election and for what ever
:57:18. > :57:24.reason, that hasn't worked. I suspect the Conservatives have come
:57:25. > :57:32.up against somewhat wily long experience negotiators and haven't
:57:33. > :57:37.realised. England's problem is Ireland's opportunity and that's
:57:38. > :57:41.what the DUP are doing. What about these guidelines we have spoken
:57:42. > :57:46.about this morning. For example the Irish language Act and Arlene Foster
:57:47. > :57:53.returning. Can the parties, Misal knows without catastrophic loss of
:57:54. > :57:57.face? I think the likes of the Irish language Act, we couldn't, most on
:57:58. > :58:01.that. They are made such an issue on it. The DUP have said there will not
:58:02. > :58:07.be an Irish language Act. Summary will lose out. During the week they
:58:08. > :58:12.said they had a very positive meeting with the DUP and the DUP
:58:13. > :58:16.were described as reasonable, the costs that they had predicted of an
:58:17. > :58:24.Irish language Act. That is one area that Sinn Fein cannot really concede
:58:25. > :58:28.on at this time. What about Arlene Foster as First Minister, easier to
:58:29. > :58:30.concede on that? I certainly think so. There is something they would
:58:31. > :58:39.probably give over on. Let's just pause there
:58:40. > :58:42.for a moment and after another busy week in politics,
:58:43. > :58:53.here's Enda McClafferty A slimmed down Queen's speech, but
:58:54. > :58:58.the DUP said it make sure its influence was felt. I'm delivering
:58:59. > :59:03.on the Armed Forces across the United Kingdom. The SNP says that
:59:04. > :59:11.there is a Conservative deal with the DUP, in Scotland should get more
:59:12. > :59:14.money too. If a Tory DUP deal promised ?1 billion infrastructure,
:59:15. > :59:17.that has consequential effects for Scotland. A former Conservative
:59:18. > :59:22.leader says there is no grounds for that argument. This is not on usual
:59:23. > :59:29.and it doesn't invoke the Barnett. The Shadow another Irish energy
:59:30. > :59:33.services news to him. The Barnett Formula is advisory. For years and
:59:34. > :59:38.years, Barnett was in the Treasury and we were told that that is the
:59:39. > :59:45.basis for funding the provisions of the United Kingdom. It takes a lot
:59:46. > :59:47.of turn the head of best man. Joanna Lumley will do just that.
:59:48. > :59:51.Gareth Gordon delighted to be interrupted by his secret crush -
:59:52. > :00:00.Back to our two commentators, Felicity and Chris.
:00:01. > :00:02.Chris, the other story making the headlines is,
:00:03. > :00:04.of course, Brexit - and the Irish Foreign Minister,
:00:05. > :00:07.Simon Coveney, has made it clear he's arguing for special status
:00:08. > :00:14.for Northern Ireland after the UK leaves the EU.
:00:15. > :00:18.Bearish Government is becoming more strident on this and we are
:00:19. > :00:23.beginning to see what is likely happening behind-the-scenes in terms
:00:24. > :00:26.of their own discussions. We heard from David Davis that the issue of
:00:27. > :00:29.the Irish border took up most of the time in terms of the first day of
:00:30. > :00:31.discussions. That gives an idea of how difficult it's going to be to
:00:32. > :00:33.resolve. Felicity, the Irish Government
:00:34. > :00:35.hasn't used language It hasn't gone down
:00:36. > :00:37.well with unionists, Why is the Minister
:00:38. > :00:46.toughening up his language? Don't think it has gone down well
:00:47. > :00:50.with certain European countries, because within the EU, special
:00:51. > :00:52.status is something that causes pandemonium when they start to look
:00:53. > :00:58.at the systems of the other countries. Many Eastern European
:00:59. > :01:01.countries might say why should Northern Ireland get all of this, or
:01:02. > :01:07.Ireland as a holder of the island, when the estate of us, we are far
:01:08. > :01:12.more economically underdeveloped. I think we... That is one of the
:01:13. > :01:15.things. We focus of the time in the British Isles. That friction. We
:01:16. > :01:20.forget about what is going on in Europe as a result of the followed a
:01:21. > :01:26.Brexit and the tensions that are turning up. The taking European
:01:27. > :01:32.agencies away from the UK, they want them to be brought back to mainland
:01:33. > :01:36.Europe. Other countries are getting a look in on those.
:01:37. > :01:40.Will it damage him as he tries to help negotiate a deal at Stormont?
:01:41. > :01:48.He is also involved in helping to note go shake that deal. What's
:01:49. > :01:52.particularly intriguing about this is that the issue of the special
:01:53. > :01:56.status for the night is important to the Irish Government because it is
:01:57. > :01:59.in the strategic interests of the independent Irish state. You have to
:02:00. > :02:01.remember the south has just come through the bailout period, they
:02:02. > :02:06.don't want another destabilising factor like this which is going to
:02:07. > :02:10.be a detrimental effect on the economy. I don't think that the
:02:11. > :02:14.stridency we are seeing from the Irish Government is necessarily over
:02:15. > :02:20.concerned over the north, it's more about the size and its priorities.
:02:21. > :02:22.Gerry Adams has called for nationalists and republicans
:02:23. > :02:24.to adopt a new approach to, "Unlock unionist opposition
:02:25. > :02:31.This that persuade you are not? The best of luck to him. I don't think
:02:32. > :02:37.it will work. He has tried before in the reality is different. Think it's
:02:38. > :02:41.more to do with the combination as opposed to persuasion. The public
:02:42. > :02:42.have to find a way to accommodate Unionists.
:02:43. > :02:45.We will be responding further in the to Andrew in London.
:02:46. > :02:48.We will be responding further in the weeks and months to come.
:02:49. > :02:53.And with that it's back to you, Andrew.
:02:54. > :02:55.What deal will Theresa May strike with the DUP to give
:02:56. > :03:02.Will the Prime Minister get her programme for government,
:03:03. > :03:05.the Queen's Speech, over the first hurdle in a House
:03:06. > :03:09.And who's in pole position to take over from Mrs May if she's
:03:10. > :03:29.A number of stories in the papers this morning about Philip Hammond
:03:30. > :03:34.becoming a caretaker Tory leader with the support of David Davis.
:03:35. > :03:40.What did you make of them? I was dismayed to hear that Tim was coming
:03:41. > :03:45.on the story because I was prepared to rubbish his story. I will go for
:03:46. > :03:50.it. This is great sport, and if I was in Tim's position I would also
:03:51. > :03:56.be cooking up stories, but Tim will say it is based on several very good
:03:57. > :03:59.sources, but my sense from the Tory backbenchers, they are in no way
:04:00. > :04:04.manoeuvring to get someone else installed in number ten, and I'm not
:04:05. > :04:07.saying that Theresa May is secure long-term but I don't sense that
:04:08. > :04:14.there is any immediate threat to her at the moment. I agree partly, but
:04:15. > :04:19.there is a shadow leadership battle. If you look at the fact that
:04:20. > :04:22.ministers have been out on the airwaves, people who I thought might
:04:23. > :04:25.have gone to a retirement home have popped up after the election
:04:26. > :04:30.campaign and are doing media again. People are jockeying, but the
:04:31. > :04:34.feeling of instability is such that they know it looks incredibly
:04:35. > :04:38.self-indulgent focus internally. We have started the Brexit clock by
:04:39. > :04:45.triggering Article 50 Mbits a hard time limit on that. We are in a
:04:46. > :04:51.world where it changes week by week, is it not incredible that there is a
:04:52. > :04:54.plan, to put Phil Hammond in as a caretaker for two years, then he
:04:55. > :05:00.will step down, and then I forget who will take over? Possibly Amber
:05:01. > :05:05.Rudd. The younger generation. This will all be done with David Davis's
:05:06. > :05:09.support, that is rather incredible. I thought it was incredible, as
:05:10. > :05:14.well, but the more calls I put in, there was a lot of chatter about
:05:15. > :05:23.this. What persuaded me that it was interesting, there were Brexit
:05:24. > :05:29.supporting MPs who felt they could stand Philip Hammond in charge. But
:05:30. > :05:32.everyone is taking the view that Theresa May is not going to lead
:05:33. > :05:36.them into the next election, so at what point do they installed the new
:05:37. > :05:41.leader? The sensible time would be in the late summer to get something
:05:42. > :05:46.in place by the party conference. With David Davis and Philip Hammond,
:05:47. > :05:48.pretty well everyone agrees they are the two grown-ups in the Cabinet and
:05:49. > :05:52.if they can come to arrangement with one of them at the top, that might
:05:53. > :05:57.be the way to have a smooth transition. Some of the stories have
:05:58. > :06:02.David Davis to be the caretaker and Phil Hammond to be the number two.
:06:03. > :06:06.David Davis was on the BBC this morning and he reacted to this.
:06:07. > :06:09.Let me be absolutely plain about this.
:06:10. > :06:11.Number one, I happen to think we've got a very good Prime Minister.
:06:12. > :06:14.I know she's coming under a lot of pressure at the moment,
:06:15. > :06:18.I've seen a number of prime ministers in
:06:19. > :06:20.Going right back to Margaret Thatcher.
:06:21. > :06:23.She makes good decisions, she's bold.
:06:24. > :06:25.There's no crisis about this government.
:06:26. > :06:28.It's very very clear that she's a good Prime Minister.
:06:29. > :06:32.Point number two, I want a stable backdrop to this Brexit negotiation.
:06:33. > :06:38.What is your message to those Tories who are already ruffling around
:06:39. > :06:39.in the rhododendrons muttering about leadership
:06:40. > :06:46.Don't be so self-indulgent is my message to those.
:06:47. > :06:53.Of course, he would say that, to an extent. I thought that was quite
:06:54. > :06:57.sincere. I've observed him long enough to know that he is always on
:06:58. > :07:03.manoeuvres of some sort but if he is on manoeuvres now, they involve not
:07:04. > :07:05.being manoeuvres for the time being. If there was credibility to this, if
:07:06. > :07:11.they were really thinking they would have a caretaker and then replace
:07:12. > :07:14.the caretaker with someone else, and then we may do something different,
:07:15. > :07:19.what with the voters make, at a time of national crisis, of huge
:07:20. > :07:25.difficulty, that the Tory party is just playing musical chairs? That is
:07:26. > :07:28.why you have MPs like Ken Clarke who say that this looks very
:07:29. > :07:34.self-indulgent. If anything we have learned from the last 20 years, it
:07:35. > :07:37.is that if you try to have a cooked up thing where everyone knows they
:07:38. > :07:41.are going to be the front man and you are the real brains of the
:07:42. > :07:45.operation, that is a recipe for huge falling out, and people need to know
:07:46. > :07:50.who they are voting for. You didn't say the bit when David Davis was
:07:51. > :07:54.asked if he would go for the leadership, and he said I'm not
:07:55. > :08:00.getting into that. -- you didn't show the bit. Let's move on. He is
:08:01. > :08:07.on quantum manoeuvres. To the more immediate. Tim, where are we with
:08:08. > :08:12.this attempt with the Conservatives to get a deal with the DUP? It is in
:08:13. > :08:19.a mess, but effectively done. People say the confidence side of it was
:08:20. > :08:22.sorted a few weeks ago, but then the fire happened and they weren't keen
:08:23. > :08:26.to do a big announcement and they are still arguing over, not so much
:08:27. > :08:31.the amount of money, but the mechanisms and how it works. I've
:08:32. > :08:35.spoken to DUP sources who say there is no circumstance in which they
:08:36. > :08:39.would vote down this Queen's Speech and the other thing that is
:08:40. > :08:42.happening, the time is meant to be running out on the next stage of the
:08:43. > :08:46.Stormont arrangements and the threat that is coming from the Tory Chief
:08:47. > :08:51.Whip Gavin Williamson to the DUP and one they take very seriously, if you
:08:52. > :08:55.don't vote for the Queen's Speech on Thursday you could effectively have
:08:56. > :09:01.Jeremy Corbyn taking direct rule of Northern Ireland with his old pals
:09:02. > :09:07.from Sinn Fein. That is the threat the Tories hang over the DUP, but
:09:08. > :09:10.the DUP are tough negotiators and if they haven't agreed to an
:09:11. > :09:14.arrangement by the Queen's Speech and they simply abstain, the
:09:15. > :09:20.government will probably still get it through, but the margin will be
:09:21. > :09:23.slight. It's a strange situation. Whether government has greater
:09:24. > :09:27.priorities than forming a government, than forming a majority
:09:28. > :09:31.government, I think they feel fairly confident that they can get over the
:09:32. > :09:35.hurdle next week. And it might be rather marginal, but as long as they
:09:36. > :09:40.can get through it. Simply wresting back on the assurance that there are
:09:41. > :09:48.no circumstances in which the DUP will bring them crashing down. That
:09:49. > :09:51.is enough for now. The long-term situation for Northern Ireland
:09:52. > :09:54.politics is very interesting. This will come under pressure if there is
:09:55. > :09:58.a vote in which the Sinn Fein votes would have made a difference, that
:09:59. > :10:03.is how they squeezed the SDLP and at the same time there is a pressure
:10:04. > :10:06.for them to come back to the Stormont talks, because there will
:10:07. > :10:11.be money flowing into Northern Ireland and they will be acute focus
:10:12. > :10:14.on the areas to which that is going. Labour will put down the memory
:10:15. > :10:22.which will highlight a number of things in the Labour manifesto and
:10:23. > :10:26.-- will put down the manifesto. They may well lose, probably, but at the
:10:27. > :10:30.moment Labour really thinks, if they could cause another election, they
:10:31. > :10:34.think they could win. So there will be all sorts of pressure, lots of
:10:35. > :10:39.votes which will go down to the wire. It is very important, Labour
:10:40. > :10:43.think they can win and fable but votes that can go down to the wire
:10:44. > :10:49.and we will see what the next couple of years will look like -- they will
:10:50. > :10:52.put votes. This is not a world that the Tory MPs like the look of, they
:10:53. > :10:55.have been told they can't take time off, they will be kept late at the
:10:56. > :11:01.House of Commons and that will put stress on the Tory party. The poor
:11:02. > :11:06.dears. The important thing, that they accept the view that the Labour
:11:07. > :11:13.Party has, because Tory MPs also believe Labour will win the election
:11:14. > :11:19.if it will -- if it were to happen any time soon. And so anyone who
:11:20. > :11:23.shares the Labour view on the customs union and things like that.
:11:24. > :11:27.If the government loses a crucial vote, this doesn't trigger an
:11:28. > :11:31.election, but it means the Queen would ask Jeremy Corbyn to form a
:11:32. > :11:40.government. He would say, yes. He might well. What remains to be seen,
:11:41. > :11:42.how effective Labour are now as a machine, Parliamentary machine,
:11:43. > :11:47.because what we saw from the election, Jeremy Corbyn exceeded any
:11:48. > :11:52.expectations in his talents as a campaigner but the fundamentals, if
:11:53. > :11:56.you talk to labour MPs who have been sceptical about him, haven't changed
:11:57. > :12:00.in terms of his ability to manage the Parliamentary party. Nothing
:12:01. > :12:05.that has happened so far in terms of the rhetoric coming out from Labour
:12:06. > :12:09.on Brexit gives any cause for confidence that there is a strategy
:12:10. > :12:16.or even a tone that has been set that is coherent. You heard the
:12:17. > :12:22.Unite union man Gerard Coyne who believes he has been purged from the
:12:23. > :12:27.organisation and he believed that could happen in the party, as well.
:12:28. > :12:30.But if you have achieved what Jeremy Corbyn has achieved, and he is now
:12:31. > :12:35.ahead in the polls, even if they don't matter much will stop he has
:12:36. > :12:39.better ratings than Theresa May now. Why would you not say, this is a
:12:40. > :12:44.winning formula and I will rebuild the party in my image? It is a
:12:45. > :12:49.legitimate thing to do, but Europe is crucial. That is why Labour was
:12:50. > :12:52.like another election sooner rather than later before any crucial votes
:12:53. > :12:56.on things like the customs union and freedom of movement because they
:12:57. > :13:02.held together a much bigger coalition than anybody thought but
:13:03. > :13:08.they did that on the back of angry Remainers. This could factor again
:13:09. > :13:12.for them. When we talk about remaking the Labour Party in the
:13:13. > :13:18.image of Jeremy Corbyn, the question is, is that someone who is sceptical
:13:19. > :13:20.about Europe, and you will see some Labour MPs rebelling on Europe
:13:21. > :13:26.because they know that's the thing the members agree with them on, and
:13:27. > :13:30.not with Mr Corbyn. A week really is a long time in politics, as Harold
:13:31. > :13:33.Wilson said. Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two at noon
:13:34. > :13:37.tomorrow with the Daily Politics, and I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:38. > :13:41.next Sunday at 11am with Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:42. > :14:10.it's the Sunday Politics. BBC Northern Ireland's biggest
:14:11. > :14:13.classical music party of the year,