:00:43. > :00:48.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:49. > :00:49.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,
:00:50. > :00:51.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.
:00:52. > :00:53.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,
:00:54. > :00:55.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.
:00:56. > :00:57.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,
:00:58. > :01:00.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party
:01:01. > :01:10.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.
:01:11. > :01:15.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!
:01:16. > :01:21.And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact
:01:22. > :01:26.Four days to go until the election
:01:27. > :01:29.and the smaller parties say this is their big chance.
:01:30. > :01:30.In London, will the rise in council in the studio in half an hour.
:01:31. > :01:33.In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local
:01:34. > :01:40.authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?
:01:41. > :01:42.And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased
:01:43. > :01:50.to say have so far not been banned from the White House.
:01:51. > :01:54.I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,
:01:55. > :01:57.but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,
:01:58. > :02:08.We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last
:02:09. > :02:12.Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe
:02:13. > :02:17.British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it
:02:18. > :02:21.may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is
:02:22. > :02:27.difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a
:02:28. > :02:32.credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the
:02:33. > :02:35.campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin
:02:36. > :02:39.with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but
:02:40. > :02:44.they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's
:02:45. > :02:47.hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems
:02:48. > :02:53.they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If
:02:54. > :03:00.Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at
:03:01. > :03:05.the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind
:03:06. > :03:09.despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never
:03:10. > :03:14.more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's
:03:15. > :03:19.the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she
:03:20. > :03:24.faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher
:03:25. > :03:28.who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked
:03:29. > :03:35.like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up
:03:36. > :03:41.to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite
:03:42. > :03:46.often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK
:03:47. > :03:50.opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her
:03:51. > :03:55.agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips
:03:56. > :04:00.with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be
:04:01. > :04:05.for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both
:04:06. > :04:09.strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and
:04:10. > :04:14.very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more
:04:15. > :04:19.dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go
:04:20. > :04:22.wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think
:04:23. > :04:27.through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority
:04:28. > :04:30.of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put
:04:31. > :04:34.under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the
:04:35. > :04:42.two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or
:04:43. > :04:44.the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to
:04:45. > :04:49.operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party
:04:50. > :04:53.to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be
:04:54. > :04:57.disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that
:04:58. > :05:02.would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip
:05:03. > :05:07.coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the
:05:08. > :05:13.moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures
:05:14. > :05:16.might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite
:05:17. > :05:19.anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press
:05:20. > :05:26.ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a
:05:27. > :05:29.slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of
:05:30. > :05:34.transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people
:05:35. > :05:38.happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground
:05:39. > :05:42.and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in
:05:43. > :05:46.which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for
:05:47. > :05:47.today. Thursday was a big night
:05:48. > :05:49.for political obsessives like us, with not one but two
:05:50. > :05:53.significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain
:05:54. > :06:01.to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,
:06:02. > :06:06.the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just
:06:07. > :06:10.a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent
:06:11. > :06:14.were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall
:06:15. > :06:18.on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon
:06:19. > :06:24.is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning
:06:25. > :06:26.strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved
:06:27. > :06:29.to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result
:06:30. > :06:31.in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away
:06:32. > :06:35.in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another
:06:36. > :06:40.Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both
:06:41. > :06:47.places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal
:06:48. > :06:50.by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,
:06:51. > :06:52.Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,
:06:53. > :06:55.winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,
:06:56. > :06:57.where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it
:06:58. > :07:01.onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare
:07:02. > :07:05.that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory
:07:06. > :07:13.here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader
:07:14. > :07:19.played down the defeat, insisting his party's
:07:20. > :07:22.time would come. Are you going to stand again
:07:23. > :07:28.as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,
:07:29. > :07:32.don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat
:07:33. > :07:41.the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this
:07:42. > :07:43.weekend who have got But a few minutes later,
:07:44. > :07:49.it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,
:07:50. > :07:53.the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000
:07:54. > :08:04.votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight
:08:05. > :08:08.is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,
:08:09. > :08:10.but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18
:08:11. > :08:22.points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes
:08:23. > :08:26.I think is an incredible The morning after the night
:08:27. > :08:30.before, the losing parties were licking their wounds
:08:31. > :08:34.and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,
:08:35. > :08:38.Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,
:08:39. > :08:44.that era has gone. It's a new era, it is
:08:45. > :08:47.a second age for us. So that needs to be
:08:48. > :08:52.more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,
:08:53. > :08:54.you know, and that will We have to continue to improve
:08:55. > :09:04.in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,
:09:05. > :09:06.we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,
:09:07. > :09:08.is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come
:09:09. > :09:13.here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP
:09:14. > :09:16.for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived
:09:17. > :09:20.in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to
:09:21. > :09:24.Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour
:09:25. > :09:28.leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some
:09:29. > :09:30.theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost
:09:31. > :09:36.a seat to a governing party for the first time
:09:37. > :09:40.since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning
:09:41. > :09:43.looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -
:09:44. > :09:47.could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives
:09:48. > :09:55.who came out on top. No governing party has made
:09:56. > :09:57.a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army
:09:58. > :10:03.of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out
:10:04. > :10:08.here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain
:10:09. > :10:19.on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in
:10:20. > :10:22.Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring
:10:23. > :10:24.conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson
:10:25. > :10:29.warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat
:10:30. > :10:31.seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated
:10:32. > :10:35.south of the border. Well, I'm joined now
:10:36. > :10:50.by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost
:10:51. > :10:54.Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the
:10:55. > :10:59.UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would
:11:00. > :11:06.absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to
:11:07. > :11:09.support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing
:11:10. > :11:13.for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for
:11:14. > :11:16.everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn
:11:17. > :11:19.around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do
:11:20. > :11:26.while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we
:11:27. > :11:30.were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working
:11:31. > :11:34.class communities across the country, but we listened very hard
:11:35. > :11:38.to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm
:11:39. > :11:44.committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is
:11:45. > :11:50.committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in
:11:51. > :11:55.Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even
:11:56. > :12:01.Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will
:12:02. > :12:05.try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general
:12:06. > :12:09.election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm
:12:10. > :12:14.the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for
:12:15. > :12:16.our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish
:12:17. > :12:20.Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we
:12:21. > :12:24.stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity
:12:25. > :12:28.platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and
:12:29. > :12:31.invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also
:12:32. > :12:38.supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to
:12:39. > :12:42.a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together
:12:43. > :12:47.by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the
:12:48. > :12:50.federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that
:12:51. > :12:54.ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional
:12:55. > :13:01.Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party
:13:02. > :13:07.and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will
:13:08. > :13:12.take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party
:13:13. > :13:16.can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide
:13:17. > :13:23.Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.
:13:24. > :13:29.Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to
:13:30. > :13:33.carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level
:13:34. > :13:37.is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to
:13:38. > :13:40.prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not
:13:41. > :13:45.to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the
:13:46. > :13:50.point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say
:13:51. > :13:54.there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it
:13:55. > :13:58.and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of
:13:59. > :14:03.this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that
:14:04. > :14:07.happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder
:14:08. > :14:10.people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What
:14:11. > :14:17.evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an
:14:18. > :14:21.English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal
:14:22. > :14:24.regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell
:14:25. > :14:30.you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that
:14:31. > :14:35.here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.
:14:36. > :14:38.What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast
:14:39. > :14:42.that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the
:14:43. > :14:47.north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that
:14:48. > :14:50.Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel
:14:51. > :14:54.remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being
:14:55. > :14:57.exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in
:14:58. > :15:01.because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways
:15:02. > :15:10.it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is
:15:11. > :15:12.leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation
:15:13. > :15:15.of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers
:15:16. > :15:17.to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English
:15:18. > :15:22.context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the
:15:23. > :15:22.English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,
:15:23. > :15:32.correct? It is absolutely the policy of the
:15:33. > :15:37.UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention
:15:38. > :15:41.to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're
:15:42. > :15:45.promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not
:15:46. > :15:50.even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is
:15:51. > :15:53.not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to
:15:54. > :15:58.Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.
:15:59. > :16:02.United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not
:16:03. > :16:07.united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power
:16:08. > :16:31.in this country. It is not united on that
:16:32. > :16:34.issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard
:16:35. > :16:37.yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people
:16:38. > :16:39.like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local
:16:40. > :16:41.Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.
:16:42. > :16:43.Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the
:16:44. > :16:46.whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a
:16:47. > :16:48.conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come
:16:49. > :16:51.onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He
:16:52. > :16:53.wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish
:16:54. > :16:56.nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance
:16:57. > :17:01.yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear
:17:02. > :17:06.yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was
:17:07. > :17:10.saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people
:17:11. > :17:15.and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up
:17:16. > :17:19.living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is
:17:20. > :17:24.forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,
:17:25. > :17:28.it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the
:17:29. > :17:33.consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing
:17:34. > :17:47.under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with
:17:48. > :17:51.ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He
:17:52. > :17:54.said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last
:17:55. > :17:56.minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and
:17:57. > :17:59.reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish
:18:00. > :18:02.nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that
:18:03. > :18:06.even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of
:18:07. > :18:14.nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it
:18:15. > :18:18.is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.
:18:19. > :18:22.Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly
:18:23. > :18:29.refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the
:18:30. > :18:34.SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did
:18:35. > :18:38.not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is
:18:39. > :18:42.divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.
:18:43. > :18:48.Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in
:18:49. > :18:53.Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence
:18:54. > :18:56.question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want
:18:57. > :19:02.to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and
:19:03. > :19:06.no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers
:19:07. > :19:10.lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,
:19:11. > :19:15.your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he
:19:16. > :19:23.referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --
:19:24. > :19:27.and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive
:19:28. > :19:31.politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we
:19:32. > :19:36.are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from
:19:37. > :19:39.saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That
:19:40. > :19:44.is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really
:19:45. > :19:50.struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about
:19:51. > :19:56.being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear
:19:57. > :20:00.that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the
:20:01. > :20:05.length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is
:20:06. > :20:09.what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back
:20:10. > :20:13.together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'
:20:14. > :20:14.time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for
:20:15. > :20:16.joining us. Thursday's win for Labour
:20:17. > :20:17.in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,
:20:18. > :20:20.but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall
:20:21. > :20:22.there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's
:20:23. > :20:33.principal political Welcome to the programme. Good
:20:34. > :20:36.morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,
:20:37. > :20:42.months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip
:20:43. > :20:47.was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting
:20:48. > :20:51.Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of
:20:52. > :20:55.Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to
:20:56. > :21:00.make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in
:21:01. > :21:07.Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.
:21:08. > :21:11.We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment
:21:12. > :21:17.that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.
:21:18. > :21:21.Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.
:21:22. > :21:26.A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out
:21:27. > :21:30.publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of
:21:31. > :21:35.Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt
:21:36. > :21:37.about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well
:21:38. > :21:54.the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of
:21:55. > :21:57.Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are
:21:58. > :21:59.passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the
:22:00. > :22:01.most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What
:22:02. > :22:04.would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul
:22:05. > :22:08.Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic
:22:09. > :22:13.cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip
:22:14. > :22:20.supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was
:22:21. > :22:27.marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip
:22:28. > :22:31.to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning
:22:32. > :22:35.what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is
:22:36. > :22:40.counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more
:22:41. > :22:45.difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a
:22:46. > :22:51.Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against
:22:52. > :22:54.triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the
:22:55. > :22:56.Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It
:22:57. > :23:13.comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.
:23:14. > :23:16.You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,
:23:17. > :23:18.they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning
:23:19. > :23:20.Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso
:23:21. > :23:22.labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,
:23:23. > :23:25.it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a
:23:26. > :23:30.future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
:23:31. > :23:35.Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not
:23:36. > :23:38.recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around
:23:39. > :23:43.campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We
:23:44. > :23:45.believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working
:23:46. > :23:52.class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in
:23:53. > :23:57.Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable
:23:58. > :24:03.to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social
:24:04. > :24:07.solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation
:24:08. > :24:12.and community. We want an immigration system that is not only
:24:13. > :24:16.reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a
:24:17. > :24:21.whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When
:24:22. > :24:26.Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he
:24:27. > :24:33.was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It
:24:34. > :24:37.would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of
:24:38. > :24:40.Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions
:24:41. > :24:43.and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will
:24:44. > :24:47.fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true
:24:48. > :24:51.that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote
:24:52. > :24:56.might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and
:24:57. > :25:00.disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,
:25:01. > :25:05.Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant
:25:06. > :25:11.tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on
:25:12. > :25:15.immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the
:25:16. > :25:18.spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech
:25:19. > :25:25.before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the
:25:26. > :25:31.result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to
:25:32. > :25:35.set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you
:25:36. > :25:41.have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,
:25:42. > :25:46.do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and
:25:47. > :25:49.freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is
:25:50. > :25:54.certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,
:25:55. > :26:00.particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing
:26:01. > :26:03.to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.
:26:04. > :26:09.If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps
:26:10. > :26:14.to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the
:26:15. > :26:17.Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil
:26:18. > :26:23.Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As
:26:24. > :26:26.far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party
:26:27. > :26:30.formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He
:26:31. > :26:35.says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.
:26:36. > :26:41.He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What
:26:42. > :26:43.do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many
:26:44. > :26:48.months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas
:26:49. > :26:53.Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi
:26:54. > :26:59.chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the
:27:00. > :27:05.moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth
:27:06. > :27:08.running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I
:27:09. > :27:12.understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip
:27:13. > :27:17.if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.
:27:18. > :27:21.Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and
:27:22. > :27:25.support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate
:27:26. > :27:30.and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,
:27:31. > :27:33.people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the
:27:34. > :27:39.party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You
:27:40. > :27:44.have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it
:27:45. > :27:48.could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too
:27:49. > :27:52.optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'
:27:53. > :27:57.time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the
:27:58. > :28:02.guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a
:28:03. > :28:06.little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get
:28:07. > :28:11.seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will
:28:12. > :28:14.of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a
:28:15. > :28:16.magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.
:28:17. > :28:18.Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often
:28:19. > :28:21.should because this week it was pulled into
:28:22. > :28:22.the global spotlight, thanks
:28:23. > :28:31.Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that
:28:32. > :28:35.had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open
:28:36. > :28:38.Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred
:28:39. > :28:41.and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking
:28:42. > :28:44.about a report he had watched on Fox News.
:28:45. > :28:47.But as if to prove he was onto something,
:28:48. > :28:49.next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb
:28:50. > :28:51.with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas
:28:52. > :29:01.So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?
:29:02. > :29:04.In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second
:29:05. > :29:11.That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced
:29:12. > :29:12.border restrictions and stopped offering permanent
:29:13. > :29:20.Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,
:29:21. > :29:23.although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven
:29:24. > :29:32.Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants
:29:33. > :29:34.have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.
:29:35. > :29:36.Although the country does have the highest reported
:29:37. > :29:39.rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises
:29:40. > :29:44.were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.
:29:45. > :29:46.Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled
:29:47. > :29:52.Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes
:29:53. > :29:56.Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers
:29:57. > :30:08.We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the
:30:09. > :30:10.governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and
:30:11. > :30:26.The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,
:30:27. > :30:30.pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later
:30:31. > :30:35.serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm
:30:36. > :30:40.so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is
:30:41. > :30:45.misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is
:30:46. > :30:49.important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for
:30:50. > :30:52.the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate
:30:53. > :31:01.that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social
:31:02. > :31:04.unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical
:31:05. > :31:11.backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic
:31:12. > :31:15.reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of
:31:16. > :31:23.crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo
:31:24. > :31:28.attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that
:31:29. > :31:32.was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox
:31:33. > :31:37.News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that
:31:38. > :31:41.because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish
:31:42. > :31:47.authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant
:31:48. > :31:50.to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly
:31:51. > :31:56.the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides
:31:57. > :32:02.because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force
:32:03. > :32:07.which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of
:32:08. > :32:11.evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the
:32:12. > :32:14.rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the
:32:15. > :32:19.rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar
:32:20. > :32:23.forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian
:32:24. > :32:28.authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity
:32:29. > :32:34.so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of
:32:35. > :32:40.lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is
:32:41. > :32:45.difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many
:32:46. > :32:50.crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault
:32:51. > :32:55.are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman
:32:56. > :33:03.goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped
:33:04. > :33:08.her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as
:33:09. > :33:13.365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news
:33:14. > :33:16.from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the
:33:17. > :33:22.last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times
:33:23. > :33:28.higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo
:33:29. > :33:32.where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.
:33:33. > :33:36.Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now
:33:37. > :33:43.dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what
:33:44. > :33:48.I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for
:33:49. > :33:52.people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is
:33:53. > :33:57.a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we
:33:58. > :34:01.want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to
:34:02. > :34:06.receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because
:34:07. > :34:10.having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I
:34:11. > :34:16.think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at
:34:17. > :34:21.one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed
:34:22. > :34:31.that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in
:34:32. > :34:34.And there we leave our colleagues in London -
:34:35. > :34:35.welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:34:36. > :34:38.In five days' time counting will be under way to decide
:34:39. > :34:41.who makes it to Stormont - and how big a voice
:34:42. > :34:45.The reason the election's happening, and the issues on which people
:34:46. > :34:47.will vote, vary depending on who you talk to.
:34:48. > :34:50.For some it's all about the RHI controversy, the equality agenda
:34:51. > :34:53.and mutual respect - for others it's about shoring up
:34:54. > :34:57.the Stormont project and securing Northern Ireland's place in the UK.
:34:58. > :35:01.from the Green Party, People Before Profit,
:35:02. > :35:03.the TUV and the Independent candidate, Claire Sugden,
:35:04. > :35:10.who's still serving as the Justice Minister, of course.
:35:11. > :35:14.So just a few days of campaigning left and for the smaller parties,
:35:15. > :35:17.an opportunity like no other, so we're told, to make gains.
:35:18. > :35:19.There's been a noticeable rise in people engaging
:35:20. > :35:21.with the debate so far, but will that translate
:35:22. > :35:25.With me today are Steven Agnew, the leader of the Green Party,
:35:26. > :35:28.Fiona Ferguson who's a candidate for People Before Profit,
:35:29. > :35:30.and Jim Allister, the leader of the TUV,
:35:31. > :35:35.Thanks to you all - and now for a look back at the week
:35:36. > :36:01.Steven Agnew, what have people wanted to talk about? People have
:36:02. > :36:06.wanted to talk about RHI. As the only party that provided any
:36:07. > :36:12.solutions, while others were saying something must be done, the Green
:36:13. > :36:20.Party proposed what we believe could be fair, legal, unlike the proposal
:36:21. > :36:27.which is likely to be proven to be illegal and a publicity stunt. You
:36:28. > :36:32.see giving your number one to a Green Party candidate is not wasted,
:36:33. > :36:37.it will be transferred to who you put second. One of the stories as
:36:38. > :36:41.transfers and what people do with second preferences. Who should
:36:42. > :36:47.people put second in The View of the Green Party? "He Is campaigning for
:36:48. > :36:51.people to put as number one. After that it is constituency by
:36:52. > :36:55.constituency. I am not going to back another party. But other party best
:36:56. > :37:01.represents Green Party values? Before I got involved in the Green
:37:02. > :37:04.Party I did not think politics reflectiveness of the only party
:37:05. > :37:09.that reflects my values as the Green Party, but people will make that
:37:10. > :37:14.judgment constituency by constituency, my constituency has a
:37:15. > :37:19.very strong Independent candidate. Jim Allister, from TUV, how do you
:37:20. > :37:25.persuade voters this is an election where it is worth casting a vote? I
:37:26. > :37:28.remind them of the mess that Stormont as Ben and if they do the
:37:29. > :37:36.same again by voting for the big parties they will get more of the
:37:37. > :37:41.season. I ask, is that working? You do get what you vote for. If people
:37:42. > :37:46.are happy they need to show it. There is no better way of showing
:37:47. > :37:54.Disney and discontent than by voting TUV, because TUV has been that thorn
:37:55. > :38:01.in the side but Stormont, and that is a message that resonates, there
:38:02. > :38:06.is realisation that we cannot go on from crisis to crisis. There is a
:38:07. > :38:10.reason why the system is not working. Sinn Fein has never been in
:38:11. > :38:15.Government in order to make Northern Ireland work and any system that has
:38:16. > :38:19.them as part of Government will not work. If we cannot fix that we
:38:20. > :38:23.cannot fix Stormont if we cannot fix Stormont to be a better off without
:38:24. > :38:26.it. The difficulty for TUV is that you have made that case at previous
:38:27. > :38:31.elections and you have never had the breakthrough that you have been
:38:32. > :38:36.looking for. You continue to be, or you were, the only member for your
:38:37. > :38:49.party in the past. While you have support across the country it is
:38:50. > :38:54.spread thinly. In the European elections 75,000 people voted for
:38:55. > :39:00.TUV. If you want to be hard and make a difference make sure you vote TUV
:39:01. > :39:05.number one. He got 75,000 at European elections but 24,000 in
:39:06. > :39:12.2016. People have seen what one determined voice can do at Stormont,
:39:13. > :39:19.and how much more we could do. But the pattern at Stormont as perpetual
:39:20. > :39:25.failure, one crisis after another. You have the squander, the shambles,
:39:26. > :39:28.and of people like that they should not fought TUV, they should vote for
:39:29. > :39:31.the party they have voted for in the past and it will not be disappointed
:39:32. > :39:37.that they will get more of the scene. If you are fed up with that,
:39:38. > :39:41.bought for TUV. Fiona Ferguson from People Before Profit, what are
:39:42. > :39:46.people telling you that they are concerned about. It changes from
:39:47. > :39:51.area to area, but he is that come up daily that have not been addressed,
:39:52. > :40:01.health care, housing, disability rights, that are not being dealt
:40:02. > :40:06.with. Not RHI? RHI comes up but for working-class areas the issues of
:40:07. > :40:09.the day are issues that have been systematically failed, that history
:40:10. > :40:12.people have been failed for the last ten years and they want to know what
:40:13. > :40:16.someone is going to do to change that. Do you accept that the
:40:17. > :40:24.challenge for your party is to go back with the two seeds you got last
:40:25. > :40:28.time? Arguably this election has come too soon. In a shrunken
:40:29. > :40:37.Assembly you would do well to keep to MLAs. This... The establishment
:40:38. > :40:41.parties are terrified of the impact that the public can have in this
:40:42. > :40:46.election, and you can see that in the campaigns that have been run
:40:47. > :40:53.against People Before Profit, leaflets being delivered on Mars
:40:54. > :41:02.across the north, against people before profit. We think we can make
:41:03. > :41:05.gains. People want to see change. Claire Sugden, your decision to
:41:06. > :41:09.accept the position of justice minister was because you told us you
:41:10. > :41:13.were convinced the DUP and Sinn Fein were serious about working in
:41:14. > :41:17.partnership to make Stormont work, ten months later do you feel let
:41:18. > :41:22.down? I feel entirely flicked down. I did ask Martin McGuinness and
:41:23. > :41:29.Arlene Foster to let me do my job and by bringing down the Assembly I
:41:30. > :41:33.have not been able to do that. Uses to meet famously that day, you had
:41:34. > :41:39.no wish list, you made an error. You should have had a wish list, do you
:41:40. > :41:43.accept that? I do not accept that. I was not in any position nor was any
:41:44. > :41:47.other party to have a wish list. The Alliance Party had a wish list. The
:41:48. > :41:51.other two parties would not agree to it, so they are not in the pickle
:41:52. > :41:55.that you are in. I am not in a pickle The. Ten months I have been
:41:56. > :42:01.justice minister, I have been trying to change things but we do in the
:42:02. > :42:06.executive. Granted it has collapsed. That is something I am not happy
:42:07. > :42:11.with. If you find yourself re-elected and in the same position,
:42:12. > :42:15.you originally called them the jokers, ID the jokers again? I did
:42:16. > :42:19.not do a U-turn. I was offered an opportunity to be justice minister.
:42:20. > :42:25.When you stand as a Independent candidate you do not aspire to be a
:42:26. > :42:29.minister, only the justice minister is possible, I took the decision to
:42:30. > :42:36.get a seat at the executive table for my constituency. You told us
:42:37. > :42:41.that the system was no fixed. You said that fair start would work. But
:42:42. > :42:45.you have confidence in the DUP and Sinn Fein. Your own testimony today
:42:46. > :42:50.is how wrong you were and how incapable of working the system is.
:42:51. > :42:54.You tried it. It failed. You cannot go on simply trying to put sticking
:42:55. > :42:58.plaster over a system that will never feel. The reason it is feeling
:42:59. > :43:02.is at the heart of that Government is a party determined that Northern
:43:03. > :43:09.Ireland will not succeed. Do you accept that, clear Sugden, that you
:43:10. > :43:15.are partly responsible for shoring up a system that was never going to
:43:16. > :43:17.work? Are they not accepted the justice ministry last year we would
:43:18. > :43:23.have found ourselves in another election. The people of Northern
:43:24. > :43:28.Ireland want us to do our job, get on governing. I have heard people
:43:29. > :43:33.talking about this election being a referendum for RHI. That is
:43:34. > :43:37.irresponsible. When those responsible and RHI are held to
:43:38. > :43:41.account we still need hospitals, schools, we are responsible for
:43:42. > :43:44.running this country, no really need X-Pac, we are telling people to vote
:43:45. > :43:50.because one party is better than the other. One country -- one party
:43:51. > :43:56.cannot do a better job than another in terms of running the country. If
:43:57. > :44:04.you find yourself in the same position again, offered the justice
:44:05. > :44:08.ministry as an independent MLA would you take it? I want to finish the
:44:09. > :44:13.job I started. To change the lives of the people of this country. I
:44:14. > :44:16.would not turn down an opportunity of my constituency of East London
:44:17. > :44:23.Delhi to have a seat at the executive table. You would prop up
:44:24. > :44:26.the jokers again. Let us move back to Steven Agnew. I want to talk
:44:27. > :44:31.about Brexit. The Green Party said they would protect Northern Ireland
:44:32. > :44:35.from Brexit. What does this mean? It needs to be protected from the
:44:36. > :44:39.consequences of Brexit, which means Northern Ireland is being put at
:44:40. > :44:42.significant disadvantage. Particular circumstances where we have the
:44:43. > :44:47.border with another EU country. But we do accept that is happening. Why
:44:48. > :44:51.I am taking the Dublin case, which will establish whether or not
:44:52. > :44:55.Article 50 is reversible, I believe in arguing that it is, is that we
:44:56. > :44:59.can have a meaningful referendum on the Brexit deal. At the minute we
:45:00. > :45:03.have done is agreed to sell the House, we have not agreed the place.
:45:04. > :45:07.We have seen the ludicrous situation, if somebody said we are
:45:08. > :45:10.offering you ?50 and you see me agreed to sell it because we had to
:45:11. > :45:14.sell, that is the position we are in. If we like the deal we meet, if
:45:15. > :45:19.we do not like the deal we still leave. We have to establish that we
:45:20. > :45:22.have the right to remain and if we do that then we can have a
:45:23. > :45:27.meaningful referendum on the deal. But Northern Ireland for the two
:45:28. > :45:32.main as a member of a European wide party, I have spoken with our MVPs,
:45:33. > :45:36.they knew about issues related to Scotland because their First
:45:37. > :45:39.Minister had raised them publicly, they did not know about the specific
:45:40. > :45:43.issues of Northern Ireland, because our First Minister and Deputy First
:45:44. > :45:47.Minister did not quickly and did not fight our corner, which is why I
:45:48. > :45:51.have taken the Dublin case. You have taken the Dublin case because you
:45:52. > :45:55.like other remainders do not accept the verdict of the people. This is
:45:56. > :46:00.typical of the usual fanatics. Every time they get an answer in any
:46:01. > :46:04.referendum across Europe they want to rerun the referendum until they
:46:05. > :46:08.get the answer they want. The United Kingdom has spoken and emphatically
:46:09. > :46:12.decided, quite wisely, they are leaving the EU, and you would be
:46:13. > :46:17.better serving the interests of your constituents if you joined anything
:46:18. > :46:20.that a success, instead of trying to undermine it. We have agreed in
:46:21. > :46:26.principle to me. We have not agreed the deal. When we see the deal, to
:46:27. > :46:39.give people the choice again. What have you got to fear from that
:46:40. > :46:48.decision. People Before Profit act Brexit. We take our cue from James
:46:49. > :46:53.Connolly. You both at the same position on Brexit, has People
:46:54. > :46:56.Before Profit no being exposed on this issue in the wake of the votes
:46:57. > :47:00.to leave last June, because there are difficulties that people are
:47:01. > :47:04.talking about, there is a discomfort in large part of the community that
:47:05. > :47:08.you would want to be getting votes from on March the 2nd? I do not
:47:09. > :47:13.think there has been an exposure of People Before Profit. People were
:47:14. > :47:17.surprised by the position we took, if so, that is because they had not
:47:18. > :47:21.looked at what we were saying about Europe for years, but fundamentally
:47:22. > :47:24.what needs to happen now, whether people voted remain orderly they
:47:25. > :47:31.need to have a sheep -- didn't have a say in how we shape this Brexit
:47:32. > :47:35.deal. We need to have what Jeremy Corbyn is calling for no in the wake
:47:36. > :47:43.of the result, a people's Brexit. We need to have our demands firmly
:47:44. > :47:47.held. Do you agree with Jim Allister and Steven Agnew, it is being
:47:48. > :47:51.undemocratic and tried to be late history, do you share Jim Allister's
:47:52. > :47:56.confidence that Brexit does not give huge challenges to people in
:47:57. > :47:59.Northern Ireland. This good shape the future of the north and that is
:48:00. > :48:05.why we need to have their views taken. Whether we stay in or out,
:48:06. > :48:08.and we are all quite clear on what is good to happen in the future,
:48:09. > :48:13.there are lies that are still being adults, just like the scaremongering
:48:14. > :48:18.in the run-up to the fort, such as this myth that he could have any
:48:19. > :48:23.sort of hard order, when the EU last Friday said they did not want a hard
:48:24. > :48:27.border. The UK Government does not want a hard border. The Irish
:48:28. > :48:30.Government does not want a hard order. Nor do the bigger parties
:48:31. > :48:39.want to see a hard border. People that keep peddling this mess, who is
:48:40. > :48:46.going to build the hard border? How a soft border could work in the
:48:47. > :48:51.context of the UK. We need to listen to people but what we saw a couple
:48:52. > :48:58.of days ago... We need a solution. Scaremongering. One of the biggest
:48:59. > :49:02.parties, Sinn Fein, hosting a dresser exercise in West Belfast
:49:03. > :49:08.where they have police officers of old with British accents cajoling
:49:09. > :49:13.people across a fake border. Just to be clear you continue to believe
:49:14. > :49:17.that Brexit is good, yes or no? We think the European Union is the
:49:18. > :49:22.right thing to do. You still believe that. Clear sudden, do you see merit
:49:23. > :49:27.in what is happening as regards leaving the EU. No, I was a remain
:49:28. > :49:31.voter, that said, it was a UK referendum and the UK voted to come
:49:32. > :49:35.out of the EU. I except that is going to happen. No really to put
:49:36. > :49:40.out best foot forward. I have been disappointed with the BV have
:49:41. > :49:43.conducted Brexit around the big issues that we will base and the
:49:44. > :49:48.challenges in the border and to do with immigration. We need to ensure
:49:49. > :49:52.that we get this in place because it is coming down the line. It is going
:49:53. > :49:56.to cause significant problems for a whole host of people. Jim Allister,
:49:57. > :50:04.I want to ask you about what you think happens after March the 2nd.
:50:05. > :50:08.If we find ourselves back under direct rule the Assembly should come
:50:09. > :50:14.back and should be used as some sort of consultative checks and balances
:50:15. > :50:19.chamber, how would that work? How credible an idea is that? I'd then
:50:20. > :50:23.what other politicians to tell me if there is minute in your idea.
:50:24. > :50:31.Starbucks does not work, if we cannot fix it we need something
:50:32. > :50:35.else. -- Stormont does not work. My suggestion is that since it is the
:50:36. > :50:40.executive that has failed we will replace the executive with British
:50:41. > :50:43.ministers but we will keep the Assembly to cause them to put their
:50:44. > :50:49.laws through the Assembly so that local politicians have influence and
:50:50. > :50:54.control over the laws of the land. A bit like the Assembly in 1982? That
:50:55. > :51:00.was only consultative, there was no putting of the laws in 1982. British
:51:01. > :51:04.minister in charge of the executive but any laws he wants to make for
:51:05. > :51:09.Northern Ireland needs to go through the Assembly, and the scrutiny
:51:10. > :51:13.applies. In that way we get Government. We have to have
:51:14. > :51:16.Government. We cannot go on as we are with this constant failure. That
:51:17. > :51:21.is your idea. Claire Sugden, you are shaking your head. It is a nonsense.
:51:22. > :51:26.As Jim Allister advocating ministers that know nothing about the people
:51:27. > :51:29.of Northern Ireland, what is right for us? We know what people need and
:51:30. > :51:36.want the Northern Ireland. To advocate for ministers... The
:51:37. > :51:40.executive has collapsed. It feels because of the inability of the two
:51:41. > :51:44.main parties to work together. It may be exactly like that on March
:51:45. > :51:47.the 3rd, after a process of weeks or months, we cannot get an Assembly
:51:48. > :51:50.and an executive backed up and running here under the system that
:51:51. > :51:56.we sought before the selection, so Jim Allister's is positing another
:51:57. > :52:00.idea. It is not an idea that will work. What would you do? The
:52:01. > :52:03.problems is because we have had direct rule for so long and
:52:04. > :52:10.decisions were made on behalf of people who did not know. We have to
:52:11. > :52:14.remember, the United Kingdom is a devolved nation. Scotland and Wales
:52:15. > :52:17.is devolved. The UK Government does not want Northern Ireland to go back
:52:18. > :52:22.under direct rule, it is probably the last thing on their agenda. I do
:52:23. > :52:25.not think they want it, but it may be nothing to do with them. It is
:52:26. > :52:30.either Stormont rule through the field executive auditors direct
:52:31. > :52:33.rule. I am suggesting a modified form of direct rule to give control
:52:34. > :52:39.and scrutiny, to keep it in check, until that is enough agility to form
:52:40. > :52:42.a voluntary Coalition. Could you give that qualified support in the
:52:43. > :52:46.short term? I would never give more power to a Tory Government in any
:52:47. > :52:51.circumstances. We need more power for the people of Northern Ireland,
:52:52. > :52:55.not less. We do not seem to be able to exercise that power, that is the
:52:56. > :52:57.point, we have run into the sand. I agree with the principles of the
:52:58. > :53:03.Good Friday Agreement but 20 years on we need to review it and reform
:53:04. > :53:07.and revitalised. We now need to give power back to the people. Since the
:53:08. > :53:11.Good Friday Agreement politicians have taken power and guarded
:53:12. > :53:17.jealously. We have had Stormont House, St Andrews, Hillsborough,
:53:18. > :53:20.fresh start, all dodgy deals behind closed doors, we now need a
:53:21. > :53:30.constitutional convention where we all review, and get behind what is
:53:31. > :53:35.sustainable. Give me a timescale. If we look at the Republic of Ireland,
:53:36. > :53:38.they had over the course of one year constitutional convention. What do
:53:39. > :53:42.they have in the meantime - direct rule. The party elected as the
:53:43. > :53:47.largest party should get Stormont back up and running in the meantime.
:53:48. > :53:51.But if they do not? They have a responsibility to do so. We need to
:53:52. > :53:55.produce a budget otherwise people will be out of jobs. The onus will
:53:56. > :54:00.be on those parties. People collect the Green Party the first thing
:54:01. > :54:03.we'll be getting a budget. Fiona Ferguson, could you live with the
:54:04. > :54:07.suggestion that Jim Allister is making that we come up some kind of
:54:08. > :54:10.bespoke way to get through in the short term? The majority of people
:54:11. > :54:14.do not want to see and we need to take cues from the majority of
:54:15. > :54:17.people going forward but after the election while I believe that the
:54:18. > :54:23.bigger parties will take a hit in the selection, even if Sinn Fein and
:54:24. > :54:28.DUP sweep through as the bigger parties, with a smaller mandate,
:54:29. > :54:33.Sinn Fein has refused to productive any red light issue and the DUP have
:54:34. > :54:39.welcomed a return to the status quo. We know what lies ahead of if they
:54:40. > :54:43.are returned as the biggest parties. What we need to see is more open
:54:44. > :54:47.democratic system that we have had sticking plaster after sticking
:54:48. > :54:51.plaster. The Stormont House Agreement, to Stormont House
:54:52. > :54:55.Agreement take two. We need to see wholesale change of society rather
:54:56. > :54:58.than sticking plasters over Stormont. That is why we need to
:54:59. > :55:02.bring citizens back into the decision-making that affects their
:55:03. > :55:15.lives. The very thing that has fields.
:55:16. > :55:18.Thanks to you all - and now for a look back at the week
:55:19. > :55:51.I resent the idea that one life is worth more than another. We must
:55:52. > :55:59.ensure that there is fairness and balance in all of this. The Lords
:56:00. > :56:06.discuss the Brexit Bill. If roads are closed vets will attract direct
:56:07. > :56:14.action and that will lead to violence. DUP confirmed it had
:56:15. > :56:17.received ?400,000 from a group of pro-union businesspeople led by a
:56:18. > :56:24.Conservative member. The alliance leader stood by criticism of two of
:56:25. > :56:25.the former councillors. People will be surprised that all I said was
:56:26. > :56:30.believed. Now, while the smaller parties have
:56:31. > :56:35.had their say this morning, the bigger ones had their turn
:56:36. > :56:37.on Thursday night's edition of The View from Ulster University's
:56:38. > :56:50.new Belfast campus. This election was not necessary.
:56:51. > :56:54.Sinn Fein news that they use the RHI issue as an excuse. It was not the
:56:55. > :56:58.reason because ultimately they are more interested in that narrow
:56:59. > :57:03.Republican agenda and they see that this is an opportunity to weaken and
:57:04. > :57:06.people recognise that and the verdict will be cast next week.
:57:07. > :57:10.Hopefully it will be somewhere with good governance that spends our
:57:11. > :57:15.finite resources a lot better than the two large parties have done.
:57:16. > :57:22.Somewhere where policy moves on. Everything from the economy, to
:57:23. > :57:25.legacy issues, we do not just park them in disagreement, we try to move
:57:26. > :57:29.them through and change things. A lot of people choose to go away
:57:30. > :57:34.because they have had enough of that kind of control and they want to be
:57:35. > :57:38.able to make their own decisions, to have a liberal and tolerant
:57:39. > :57:41.democracy, and other people will want to come here, and that it's so
:57:42. > :57:49.rebuild the economy and create good prospects and good of life. It is
:57:50. > :57:52.not only about the mandate, it is about those young people getting
:57:53. > :57:55.involved in the parties that are sitting around this table, and the
:57:56. > :58:01.other parties, to make sure that as a progression and policy. It is
:58:02. > :58:04.about the engagement of the young people here with political parties
:58:05. > :58:09.and the process that starts that change. The decision to take us out
:58:10. > :58:14.of the EU against the wishes of the people of the north is damaging, not
:58:15. > :58:18.just economic way, socially, and politically, it is also damaging the
:58:19. > :58:24.basis of the Good Friday Agreement, upon which our system works. It was
:58:25. > :58:26.surprising that people voted against protecting the Good Friday
:58:27. > :58:27.arrangement in any Article 50 negotiation.
:58:28. > :58:29.Just a snapshot of the debate on Thursday night -
:58:30. > :58:38.and my guests to chew over all that are Alan Meban and Allison Morris.
:58:39. > :58:47.How big an opportunity to the smaller parties have in an Assembly
:58:48. > :58:55.that is shrinking from 108 members, down to 19 members. There will be
:58:56. > :59:02.heavy reliance on transfers for the fifth seat. That will cause extreme
:59:03. > :59:08.difficulty. It is interesting that the main topic of debate, that leads
:59:09. > :59:12.to most tension, as Brexit, and not the issues that led to this election
:59:13. > :59:18.in the first place such as RHI and the sort of things. Jim Allister is
:59:19. > :59:23.probably in his element because this is a very anti-group-mac led
:59:24. > :59:31.election, it came about because of RHI, I do not see how making many
:59:32. > :59:33.games. People suffer from the anti-Brexit stance despite the fact
:59:34. > :59:39.that the candidate that it which is why it is a good idea, they will
:59:40. > :59:43.take a hit on the doors. Is the challenge to hold firm, to
:59:44. > :59:46.consolidate, not a time for growth? It is not a typo growth but there
:59:47. > :59:52.was ever a conference of circumstances that make the people
:59:53. > :59:54.likely to give more support, higher preference to smaller parties,
:59:55. > :59:59.particularly well established candidates, outgoing MLAs, I think
:00:00. > :00:02.most of them will return, even though we are going to five seats,
:00:03. > :00:08.it will be the larger parties that will suffer. You are seeing the way
:00:09. > :00:10.for people to register their dislike some of the bigger parties is to
:00:11. > :00:17.take a punt on some novels smaller parties or Independents? That is a
:00:18. > :00:22.possibility and we had a reasonably article conversation today of those
:00:23. > :00:26.representing those parties. People will take a punt on them. This is
:00:27. > :00:31.the time. Who else do they have for a protest vote? An extra 20,000
:00:32. > :00:35.people on the electoral register, those are people who have registered
:00:36. > :00:40.in the last month or so, they are likely to vote, are they going to
:00:41. > :00:44.vote for traditional parties or try to make some kind of the difference?
:00:45. > :00:48.I think that difference will be for the two main opposition parties, if
:00:49. > :00:53.there will be a bounce it will go to the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists.
:00:54. > :00:57.With all elections, the big party machine, established candidates who
:00:58. > :01:01.are already elected, some of the opposition candidates people like.
:01:02. > :01:04.Some have raised the profile in the last seven months since being in
:01:05. > :01:09.opposition. Those sort of people will benefit from the bounce, not so
:01:10. > :01:15.sure that the Green Party or people from those very small parties will
:01:16. > :01:21.benefit from the antiestablishment vote. There has been focused on
:01:22. > :01:26.three women in particular in this election. Arlene Foster, Michelle
:01:27. > :01:35.O'Neill, Naomi Long, there is a lot at stake. Arlene Foster needs a good
:01:36. > :01:40.result, not to go below that magic 30 number, otherwise the knives are
:01:41. > :01:43.out, it be a swift exit for as leader stop Michelle O'Neill does
:01:44. > :01:50.not have as much to lose. The Commission has happened. She is
:01:51. > :02:01.leader. Naomi Long and they are likely to hold their own. They could
:02:02. > :02:05.accept a small set of losses, but if anybody has not been knocking on as
:02:06. > :02:10.many doors as they should have, that would be Alliance would suffer from
:02:11. > :02:13.that stock I would like to think those female leaders would mean
:02:14. > :02:16.there is a difference in the votes and policies that would help women
:02:17. > :02:24.and reproductive rights. Unfortunately I do not think they
:02:25. > :02:34.are. Arlene Foster is in a position where it is difficult to be...
:02:35. > :02:39.Constant mentions of the IRA wing of Sinn Fein. Arlene Foster is finding
:02:40. > :02:43.it difficult to go against Michelle O'Neill. Another thing that will be
:02:44. > :02:50.fascinating to see the judgment of the electorate is Mike Nesbitt,
:02:51. > :02:54.Colum Eastwood, their respective parties, not necessarily the same
:02:55. > :03:03.thing. This is too soon for the opposition to have done anything in
:03:04. > :03:06.order to get extra votes. We will see some element of whether or not
:03:07. > :03:12.they grow a little bit or whether they grow a lot. It would take a big
:03:13. > :03:17.change in turn out to change the proportions to match. But if people
:03:18. > :03:21.on the doors. We laugh at the fact that politicians may be economic
:03:22. > :03:25.with the truth, voters on the doors are even more economical, we are not
:03:26. > :03:28.hearing from politicians what people forget. Brexit and Trump showed us
:03:29. > :03:33.that we should not listen to opinion polls ahead of any election. It'll
:03:34. > :03:38.come down to what happens on the day. Fascinating few days ahead of
:03:39. > :03:52.Andrew, back to you. us. Thank you both very much indeed.
:03:53. > :03:59.Welcome back. Article 50, which triggers the beginning of Britain
:04:00. > :04:03.leaving the European Union and start negotiations, is winding its way
:04:04. > :04:07.through the Lords in this coming week. Tarzan has made an
:04:08. > :04:14.intervention, let's just see the headline from the Mail on Sunday.
:04:15. > :04:18.Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, my fightback starts here, he is
:04:19. > :04:22.going to defy Theresa May. I divide one Prime Minister over the poll
:04:23. > :04:27.tax, I'm ready to defy this one in the Lords over Brexit. There we go,
:04:28. > :04:32.that's going to happen this week. We will see how far he gets. I don't
:04:33. > :04:36.think he will get very far, I don't think Loyalist Tory MPs and
:04:37. > :04:41.Brexiteers are quaking in their boots at the prospect of a rebellion
:04:42. > :04:46.led by Michael Heseltine. I sense that many Tory MPs are already
:04:47. > :04:50.moving on to the next question about Brexit, and the discussion over how
:04:51. > :04:56.much it will cost us to come out. The fact they are already debating
:04:57. > :05:01.that suggests to me they feel things will go fairly smoothly in terms of
:05:02. > :05:06.the legislation. When I spoke to the Labour leader in the Lords last week
:05:07. > :05:09.on the daily politics, she said she was going to push hard for the kind
:05:10. > :05:18.of amendments Lord has all-time is talking about and they would bring
:05:19. > :05:21.that back to the Commons. But if the Commons pinged it back to the Lords
:05:22. > :05:28.with the amendments taken out, she made it clear that was the end of
:05:29. > :05:33.it. Is that right? That's about right. This is probably really a
:05:34. > :05:38.large destruction. There will be to micro issues that come up in the
:05:39. > :05:43.Lords, one is on the future of EU nationals, that could be voted on as
:05:44. > :05:47.soon as this Wednesday, and then the main vote in the Lords on a week on
:05:48. > :05:51.Tuesday, when there is this question of what sort of vote will MPs and
:05:52. > :05:55.peers get at the end of the Brexit process and that is what has
:05:56. > :06:00.all-time is talking about. He wants to make sure there are guarantees in
:06:01. > :06:04.place. The kind of things peers are looking for are pretty moderate and
:06:05. > :06:10.the Government have hinted they could deliver on both of them
:06:11. > :06:14.already. But they are still not prepared... Amber Rudd said they
:06:15. > :06:19.were not prepared... They may say yes we are going to do that but they
:06:20. > :06:23.won't allow whatever that is to be enshrined in the legislation. The
:06:24. > :06:27.question is whether we think this is dancing on the head of a pin. The
:06:28. > :06:30.Government have already promised something in the House of Commons,
:06:31. > :06:35.but will they write it down, I don't think that's the biggest problem in
:06:36. > :06:38.the world. In a sense this is a great magicians trick by Theresa May
:06:39. > :06:45.because it is not the most important thing. The most important thing in
:06:46. > :06:48.Brexit is going on in those committees behind closed doors when
:06:49. > :06:52.they are trying to work out what the next migration system is for Britain
:06:53. > :06:55.and there are some interesting, indeed toxic proposals, but at the
:06:56. > :06:59.moment Downing Street are happy to let us talk about the constitutional
:07:00. > :07:06.propriety of what MPs are doing over the next eight days. It seems to me
:07:07. > :07:10.the irony is that if we had a second chamber that can claim some kind of
:07:11. > :07:15.democratic legitimacy, which the one we have cannot, it would be able to
:07:16. > :07:19.cause the Government more trouble on this, it would be more robust.
:07:20. > :07:28.Absolutely. I saw the interview we did with the Labour Leader of the
:07:29. > :07:32.Lords, they are very conscious, of the fact they are not elected and
:07:33. > :07:36.have limited powers. She was clear to you they would not impede the
:07:37. > :07:40.timetable for triggering Article 50 so we might get a bit of theatre,
:07:41. > :07:46.Michael Heseltine might deliver a brilliant speech. It is interesting
:07:47. > :07:51.that Euroscepticism gun under Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party
:07:52. > :07:55.but two offer senior ministers Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the
:07:56. > :07:59.most prominent opponents now but they will change nothing at this
:08:00. > :08:04.point. She will have the space to trigger Article 50 within her
:08:05. > :08:06.timetable. Let's move on. Let me show you a picture tweeted by Nigel
:08:07. > :08:16.Farage. That is Nigel Farage and a small
:08:17. > :08:20.group of people having dinner, and within that small group of people is
:08:21. > :08:25.the president of the United States, and it was taken in the last couple
:08:26. > :08:31.of days. This would suggest that if he can command that amount of the
:08:32. > :08:35.President's time in a small group of people, then he's actually rather
:08:36. > :08:40.close to the president. Make no mistake about it, Nigel Farage is
:08:41. > :08:47.now to and fro Washington more regularly than perhaps he is here.
:08:48. > :08:53.Hopefully that LBC programme is recorded over in the state. He's not
:08:54. > :08:56.only close to the president but to a series of people within the
:08:57. > :09:01.administration. That relationship there is a remarkable one and one to
:09:02. > :09:06.keep an eye on. Will the main government be tempted to tap into
:09:07. > :09:12.that relationship at any time or is it just seething with anger? You can
:09:13. > :09:18.feel a ripple of discontentment over this. We are in the middle of
:09:19. > :09:22.negotiating the state visit and the sort of pomp and circumstance and
:09:23. > :09:26.what kind of greeting Britain should give Donald Trump when he comes over
:09:27. > :09:30.later in the year. There is a great deal of neurotic thought going into
:09:31. > :09:33.what that should look like, but one of the most interesting things about
:09:34. > :09:37.our relationship with Donald Trump is that there is a nervousness among
:09:38. > :09:41.some Cabinet ministers that we are being seen to go too far, too fast
:09:42. > :09:45.with the prospect of a trade deal. Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet
:09:46. > :09:50.ministers, they worry we won't get a very good trade deal with the US and
:09:51. > :09:54.we are tolerably placing a lot of stalled by it. When we see the kind
:09:55. > :10:03.of deal they want to pitch with us there might be some pulling back and
:10:04. > :10:06.that could be an awkward moment in terms of our relationship, and no
:10:07. > :10:11.doubt Nigel at that term -- at that point will accuse the UK of doing
:10:12. > :10:19.the dirty on Donald Trump. If there was a deal, would they get it
:10:20. > :10:23.through the House of Commons? Nigel Farage is having dinner with the
:10:24. > :10:27.president, not bad as a kind of lifestyle but he's politically
:10:28. > :10:30.rootless, he won't be an MEP much longer so if you look at where is
:10:31. > :10:35.his political base to build on this great time he's having, there is
:10:36. > :10:38.one. Given that there is one I think he's just having a great time and it
:10:39. > :10:49.isn't much more significant than that. No? There's a lot to be said
:10:50. > :10:58.for having a great time. You are having a great time. Let's just
:10:59. > :11:02.look, because of the dominance of the Government we kind of it nor
:11:03. > :11:08.there are problems piling up, only what, ten days with the Budget to
:11:09. > :11:14.go, piling up for Mrs May and her government. The business rates which
:11:15. > :11:17.has alarmed a lot of Tories, this disability cuts which are really a
:11:18. > :11:21.serious problem for the Government, and the desperate need for more
:11:22. > :11:26.money for social care. There are other issues, there are problems
:11:27. > :11:30.there and they involve spending money. Absolutely and some people
:11:31. > :11:34.argue Theresa May has only one Monday and that is to deliver Brexit
:11:35. > :11:41.but it is impossible as a Prime Minister to ignore everything else.
:11:42. > :11:44.And she doesn't want to either. The bubbling issue of social care and
:11:45. > :11:49.the NHS is the biggest single problem for her in the weeks and
:11:50. > :11:52.months ahead, she has got to come up with something. And Mr Hammond will
:11:53. > :11:58.have to loosen his belt a little bit. I think he will in relation to
:11:59. > :12:01.the NHS, he didn't mention it in the Autumn Statement, which was
:12:02. > :12:05.remarkable, and he cannot get away with not mentioning it this time. If
:12:06. > :12:09.he mentions it, it has to be in a positive context in some way or
:12:10. > :12:13.another and it is one example of many. She is both strong because she
:12:14. > :12:17.is so far ahead in the opinion polls, but this in tray is one of
:12:18. > :12:23.the most daunting a Prime Minister has faced in recent times I think.
:12:24. > :12:29.Here is what will happen on Budget day, money will be more money,
:12:30. > :12:35.magically found down the back of the Treasury sofa. The projections are
:12:36. > :12:39.that he has wiggle room of about 12 billion. But look at the bills,
:12:40. > :12:44.rebels involved in business rates suggest the Chancellor will have to
:12:45. > :12:48.throw up ?2 billion at that problem. 3.7 billion is the potential cost of
:12:49. > :12:52.this judgment about disability benefits. The Government will try to
:12:53. > :12:58.find different ways of satisfying it but who knows. It will not popular.
:12:59. > :13:01.I'm not sure they will throw money at the NHS, they want an interim
:13:02. > :13:05.settlement on social care which will alleviate pressure on the NHS but
:13:06. > :13:12.they feel... That's another couple of billion by the way. They feel in
:13:13. > :13:17.the Treasury that the NHS has not delivered on what Simon Stevens
:13:18. > :13:22.promised them. But here is the bigger problem for Philip Hammond,
:13:23. > :13:25.he has two This year and he thinks the second one in the autumn is more
:13:26. > :13:27.important because that is when people will feel the cost living
:13:28. > :13:29.squeeze. The Daily Politics is back at noon
:13:30. > :13:33.on BBC Two tomorrow. We'll be back here at
:13:34. > :13:35.the same time next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:36. > :13:42.it's the Sunday Politics.