26/06/2016

:00:15. > :00:21.Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has

:00:22. > :00:26.been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour

:00:27. > :00:32.this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't

:00:33. > :00:37.going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of

:00:38. > :00:44.any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What

:00:45. > :00:51.does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will

:00:52. > :00:56.replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we

:00:57. > :01:02.have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the

:01:03. > :01:11.referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The

:01:12. > :01:19.country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition

:01:20. > :01:22.to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you

:01:23. > :02:04.cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and

:02:05. > :02:08.listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls

:02:09. > :02:37.saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and

:02:38. > :02:44.And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People

:02:45. > :02:48.who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the

:02:49. > :02:52.Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can

:02:53. > :02:57.hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of

:02:58. > :03:01.the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not

:03:02. > :03:07.be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour

:03:08. > :03:11.voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or

:03:12. > :03:15.the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we

:03:16. > :03:20.should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.

:03:21. > :03:25.Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We

:03:26. > :03:30.did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It

:03:31. > :03:35.does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union

:03:36. > :03:37.will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every

:03:38. > :03:44.electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the

:03:45. > :03:50.referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party

:03:51. > :03:54.political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters

:03:55. > :04:01.and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He

:04:02. > :04:06.delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young

:04:07. > :04:10.people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a

:04:11. > :04:15.success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I

:04:16. > :04:21.have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came

:04:22. > :04:24.on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we

:04:25. > :04:29.need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in

:04:30. > :04:33.that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to

:04:34. > :04:37.the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to

:04:38. > :04:41.the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and

:04:42. > :04:46.listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left

:04:47. > :04:49.behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.

:04:50. > :04:56.Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,

:04:57. > :05:00.maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but

:05:01. > :05:05.within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we

:05:06. > :05:09.want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be

:05:10. > :05:13.doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in

:05:14. > :05:17.particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be

:05:18. > :05:21.hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be

:05:22. > :05:26.able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European

:05:27. > :05:30.leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by

:05:31. > :05:35.Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this

:05:36. > :05:37.government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who

:05:38. > :05:43.are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning

:05:44. > :05:46.and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are

:05:47. > :05:50.at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that

:05:51. > :05:54.we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to

:05:55. > :05:58.provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in

:05:59. > :06:04.overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some

:06:05. > :06:11.people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.

:06:12. > :06:14.I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands

:06:15. > :06:21.for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the

:06:22. > :06:26.party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few

:06:27. > :06:31.months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need

:06:32. > :06:36.to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...

:06:37. > :06:44.He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would

:06:45. > :06:49.you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his

:06:50. > :06:53.sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.

:06:54. > :07:01.Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on

:07:02. > :07:07.-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.

:07:08. > :07:11.His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I

:07:12. > :07:20.think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every

:07:21. > :07:23.electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at

:07:24. > :07:25.the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part

:07:26. > :07:28.of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support

:07:29. > :07:35.for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has

:07:36. > :07:40.not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me

:07:41. > :07:46.about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is

:07:47. > :07:52.part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been

:07:53. > :07:56.until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is

:07:57. > :08:03.disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in

:08:04. > :08:08.the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going

:08:09. > :08:12.to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best

:08:13. > :08:19.political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for

:08:20. > :08:23.another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does

:08:24. > :08:26.not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would

:08:27. > :08:32.stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.

:08:33. > :08:37.You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is

:08:38. > :08:43.not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your

:08:44. > :08:48.colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would

:08:49. > :08:54.not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do

:08:55. > :08:58.it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder

:08:59. > :09:05.where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with

:09:06. > :09:10.us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming

:09:11. > :09:15.live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,

:09:16. > :09:20.what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum

:09:21. > :09:22.result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.

:09:23. > :09:31.Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have

:09:32. > :09:36.spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,

:09:37. > :09:39.decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,

:09:40. > :09:48.against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I

:09:49. > :09:52.can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and

:09:53. > :09:56.months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the

:09:57. > :10:07.captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well

:10:08. > :10:10.prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England

:10:11. > :10:14.have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I

:10:15. > :10:22.have remained in close contact, including through the night at this

:10:23. > :10:29.point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is

:10:30. > :10:31.politically. There is no way of predicting all the political

:10:32. > :10:40.consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a

:10:41. > :10:46.significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a

:10:47. > :10:51.statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

:10:52. > :10:56.be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed

:10:57. > :11:01.everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not

:11:02. > :11:06.everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man

:11:07. > :11:13.who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a

:11:14. > :11:15.conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this

:11:16. > :11:22.does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less

:11:23. > :11:28.united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak

:11:29. > :11:33.to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did

:11:34. > :11:38.not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may

:11:39. > :11:44.feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or

:11:45. > :11:47.any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever

:11:48. > :11:51.becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing

:11:52. > :11:56.with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night

:11:57. > :12:01.before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not

:12:02. > :12:06.really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.

:12:07. > :12:10.I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I

:12:11. > :12:17.have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,

:12:18. > :12:22.Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never

:12:23. > :12:26.seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where

:12:27. > :12:30.we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this

:12:31. > :12:35.the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose

:12:36. > :12:39.it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make

:12:40. > :12:43.any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we

:12:44. > :12:47.have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule

:12:48. > :12:52.anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of

:12:53. > :12:57.reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in

:12:58. > :13:02.what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final

:13:03. > :13:06.two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of

:13:07. > :13:10.my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.

:13:11. > :13:15.Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.

:13:16. > :13:19.They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922

:13:20. > :13:24.Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The

:13:25. > :13:26.Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy

:13:27. > :13:43.Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could

:13:44. > :13:45.be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when

:13:46. > :13:47.David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question

:13:48. > :13:50.by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and

:13:51. > :13:52.there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the

:13:53. > :13:55.prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,

:13:56. > :14:03.and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of

:14:04. > :14:06.reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the

:14:07. > :14:12.ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we

:14:13. > :14:17.have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is

:14:18. > :14:20.critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and

:14:21. > :14:26.answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership

:14:27. > :14:30.contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.

:14:31. > :14:35.APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the

:14:36. > :14:38.length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were

:14:39. > :14:43.difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also

:14:44. > :14:47.pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better

:14:48. > :14:53.levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the

:14:54. > :14:56.European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign

:14:57. > :15:01.Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans

:15:02. > :15:04.emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow

:15:05. > :15:09.Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to

:15:10. > :15:14.have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the

:15:15. > :15:18.referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same

:15:19. > :15:23.on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of

:15:24. > :15:28.the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of

:15:29. > :15:32.the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.

:15:33. > :15:36.Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with

:15:37. > :15:43.Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow

:15:44. > :15:47.Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy

:15:48. > :15:52.Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for

:15:53. > :15:56.the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism

:15:57. > :16:00.among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been

:16:01. > :16:04.brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy

:16:05. > :16:09.Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune

:16:10. > :16:17.with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are

:16:18. > :16:20.very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive

:16:21. > :16:24.committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there

:16:25. > :16:27.is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy

:16:28. > :16:32.Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn

:16:33. > :16:36.is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his

:16:37. > :16:43.Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he

:16:44. > :16:46.fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a

:16:47. > :16:51.scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the

:16:52. > :16:54.second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the

:16:55. > :16:59.numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to

:17:00. > :17:04.remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken

:17:05. > :17:10.it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it

:17:11. > :17:15.in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the

:17:16. > :17:20.same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry

:17:21. > :17:23.is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our

:17:24. > :17:29.disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a

:17:30. > :17:32.massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell

:17:33. > :17:37.says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow

:17:38. > :17:43.Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly

:17:44. > :17:49.Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is

:17:50. > :17:53.Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.

:17:54. > :17:58.He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his

:17:59. > :18:02.mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to

:18:03. > :18:07.wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any

:18:08. > :18:11.other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest

:18:12. > :18:15.Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key

:18:16. > :18:21.question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next

:18:22. > :18:26.Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?

:18:27. > :18:32.I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see

:18:33. > :18:37.someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron

:18:38. > :18:42.did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really

:18:43. > :18:46.is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is

:18:47. > :18:53.seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was

:18:54. > :18:58.the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm

:18:59. > :19:04.sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still

:19:05. > :19:09.interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so

:19:10. > :19:12.horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to

:19:13. > :19:17.leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a

:19:18. > :19:22.bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.

:19:23. > :19:26.I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all

:19:27. > :19:31.have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same

:19:32. > :19:38.page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always

:19:39. > :19:41.thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated

:19:42. > :19:45.timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am

:19:46. > :19:50.having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is

:19:51. > :19:54.strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on

:19:55. > :19:58.manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,

:19:59. > :20:03.we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong

:20:04. > :20:11.signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if

:20:12. > :20:17.it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does

:20:18. > :20:22.he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the

:20:23. > :20:25.members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly

:20:26. > :20:31.popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a

:20:32. > :20:34.national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time

:20:35. > :20:40.of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.

:20:41. > :20:41.We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going

:20:42. > :20:43.to happen. You may currently be

:20:44. > :20:45.unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half

:20:46. > :20:49.the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the

:20:50. > :20:58.Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that

:20:59. > :21:00.unlocks our membership of the European Union,

:21:01. > :21:03.chances are we will all become very familiar with it over

:21:04. > :21:05.the next months and years. The UK will be the first country

:21:06. > :21:09.to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately

:21:10. > :21:12.vague so that each member state can decide how

:21:13. > :21:16.and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,

:21:17. > :21:19.it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has

:21:20. > :21:23.effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership

:21:24. > :21:28.contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,

:21:29. > :21:31.the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts

:21:32. > :21:35.in the European Commission. What will be the substance

:21:36. > :21:41.of the talks? Our budget contributions will be

:21:42. > :21:44.discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats

:21:45. > :21:49.and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU

:21:50. > :21:52.financial programmes in the UK are phased out,

:21:53. > :21:55.and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights

:21:56. > :21:57.conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have

:21:58. > :22:04.to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,

:22:05. > :22:06.and will require ratification from each of the 27

:22:07. > :22:12.national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been

:22:13. > :22:15.hammered out, it will be put to the European Council

:22:16. > :22:18.and will need support from a qualified majority,

:22:19. > :22:22.at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,

:22:23. > :22:30.it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,

:22:31. > :22:36.the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote

:22:37. > :22:45.of the council. There we are, much more of that to

:22:46. > :22:49.come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former

:22:50. > :22:52.Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted

:22:53. > :22:55.Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union

:22:56. > :23:07.for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out

:23:08. > :23:12.of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we

:23:13. > :23:16.have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the

:23:17. > :23:21.consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe

:23:22. > :23:25.will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this

:23:26. > :23:29.process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three

:23:30. > :23:32.months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in

:23:33. > :23:38.shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think

:23:39. > :23:43.it is important for the country to see what are the actual

:23:44. > :23:47.consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options

:23:48. > :23:53.are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including

:23:54. > :23:58.President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just

:23:59. > :24:05.apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What

:24:06. > :24:09.do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the

:24:10. > :24:14.result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain

:24:15. > :24:18.to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got

:24:19. > :24:23.to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela

:24:24. > :24:31.Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she

:24:32. > :24:36.has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,

:24:37. > :24:40.and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best

:24:41. > :24:43.for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that

:24:44. > :24:54.relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre

:24:55. > :24:59.these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also

:25:00. > :25:03.have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what

:25:04. > :25:09.is going to be an agonising and highly complicated process of

:25:10. > :25:14.defining a new relationship with Europe. The odd thing about this

:25:15. > :25:19.referendum, when you think about it, it's like saying to someone, right,

:25:20. > :25:24.you are going to swap your house. You know where you live but you will

:25:25. > :25:30.swap it for another house. And right now, we can give you two people, you

:25:31. > :25:34.cannot see that the house but we can give you two people who tell you

:25:35. > :25:39.what they think. One says this house will be fantastic, great for you,

:25:40. > :25:43.and the other says this house is structurally on sound, you will hate

:25:44. > :25:48.it. We have taken the decision to swap homes, if you like, without

:25:49. > :25:52.having seen what the other thing looks like. Over this period of

:25:53. > :25:57.time, we will see what it looks like. We will then get right into

:25:58. > :26:02.the detail because the detail matters. For example financial

:26:03. > :26:05.services, if we don't have the EU passport for our financial services,

:26:06. > :26:09.what does that mean for the City of London? You could get thousands of

:26:10. > :26:14.jobs going so how do you preserve it? What does the car industry do?

:26:15. > :26:20.We have hundreds of thousands of jobs dependent on it. I think the

:26:21. > :26:24.detail will really matter and we need to take our time over this so

:26:25. > :26:30.that the country also carries on being engaged in a debate about what

:26:31. > :26:35.this really means. But what would you advise Boris Johnson and Michael

:26:36. > :26:39.Gove to go for in terms of the overall relationship? The details

:26:40. > :26:42.will take a long while, I understand that, but broadly what kind of

:26:43. > :26:48.relationship would you advise them to have going forward? I think one

:26:49. > :26:52.that preserves as much as we can of our access to the market in Europe

:26:53. > :26:59.because that is essential, I mean half of our trade is with Europe,

:27:00. > :27:02.but secondly which allows us at least some decisions that will be

:27:03. > :27:06.made that have a direct bearing on Britain. One of the things that so

:27:07. > :27:11.curious about this whole process is that we are an independent country,

:27:12. > :27:16.we are an independent country now. I say to people, I think the ten years

:27:17. > :27:20.I had as by Minister, I cannot think of a single decision that Europe

:27:21. > :27:24.said to me I had to make or I couldn't make other than those to do

:27:25. > :27:29.with Europe specifically. We will now be in this new relationship with

:27:30. > :27:33.Europe, we have got to work out what is in our interests. We have got to

:27:34. > :27:38.understand something as well, I think it is very important about

:27:39. > :27:44.where the country is today. I think it is deeply divided. The Leave camp

:27:45. > :27:50.won, but 48% voted Remain. I think there was a lot of dismay and anger

:27:51. > :27:54.among that 48%. I think a lot of young people particularly feel their

:27:55. > :27:59.future has been changed in a way they profoundly disagree with. And

:28:00. > :28:03.so, if there is a desire in the Leave camp to try to bring the

:28:04. > :28:09.country back together, if there is a maturity there in the politics of

:28:10. > :28:13.Leave, we have also got to show a majority for the politics of Remain

:28:14. > :28:16.and work out how we do this best for the country but that argues for a

:28:17. > :28:25.negotiating process which allows the country at every stage to see, this

:28:26. > :28:32.is the reality. It is no longer about claims and counterclaims. Do

:28:33. > :28:39.you rule out another referendum? As I'm looking at it here, I can't see

:28:40. > :28:44.how we would do that. You will have a reality to test yourself against.

:28:45. > :28:49.For example, in the last few days there has been this vast crash in

:28:50. > :28:53.the financial markets, something like $3 trillion has been wiped out

:28:54. > :28:57.financial markets globally, the pound has obviously fallen

:28:58. > :29:01.dramatically, but maybe studies itself in the days to come. The

:29:02. > :29:06.British people and the Europeans need to see that reality. Maybe as

:29:07. > :29:12.we get into it, there are companies that say, we are perfectly happy, we

:29:13. > :29:17.can live with the new arrangement, others say, we can't. If we finally

:29:18. > :29:22.see the structure, what is in the new house, we see the house we will

:29:23. > :29:28.now move into outside the EU, should that go for a referendum? As I say,

:29:29. > :29:31.I cannot see how you would go through the mechanics of another

:29:32. > :29:34.referendum now, but on the other hand there will be a lot of people

:29:35. > :29:40.in the country that say, let's have a look at this. Parliament will want

:29:41. > :29:46.to look at it. Remember, the one thing, again what was strange and

:29:47. > :29:50.unsatisfactory about the referendum campaign is the devil really is in

:29:51. > :29:53.the detail with this. I was trying to say to people, if you are

:29:54. > :29:59.deciding whether to join the European Union, that is one kind of

:30:00. > :30:03.debate, but when you are deciding whether to leave after four decades

:30:04. > :30:08.of membership, with intricate relationships, we need to see that.

:30:09. > :30:12.We need to see for example who will win that battle in French politics

:30:13. > :30:18.between those who say the border should go back to Dover now or the

:30:19. > :30:24.border will stay in Calais. All of these things I think are low us now

:30:25. > :30:29.to be, now we are going to see the new home, now we will look at it and

:30:30. > :30:33.test it, we will be going round it, we will be seeing what it really

:30:34. > :30:38.means. And so in a sense, what I'm saying is we have a divided country

:30:39. > :30:44.but I think there is the possibility of bringing people back together if

:30:45. > :30:47.we are sensible about it and don't let our dismay on either side of

:30:48. > :30:56.this argument get the better of our judgment. Why did Remain lose? I

:30:57. > :31:01.don't think that is very hard to work out. You could buy the wake of

:31:02. > :31:04.this type of referendum anywhere in Europe at the moment and you would

:31:05. > :31:09.have the potential for the result to be the same. One of the things I

:31:10. > :31:16.think is important for us as we go into this European negotiation, it

:31:17. > :31:22.is Europe can take one of two views. They can say, get out as fast as

:31:23. > :31:27.possible. The other thing they could do and maybe they should do when

:31:28. > :31:31.they reflect about it, if we approach this negotiation sensibly,

:31:32. > :31:35.is to think the British had their referendum but actually we have the

:31:36. > :31:40.same strains of opinion and the same anxieties in our own countries,

:31:41. > :31:48.let's think about how we deal with those and let's not look upon the

:31:49. > :31:53.Brits as outliers. They were always difficult in Europe, now we have got

:31:54. > :31:56.rid of the difficult people. No, every country is anxious about the

:31:57. > :32:04.effect of globalisation on jobs and so on. I think it is not hard to see

:32:05. > :32:09.why Leave won. Personally I think it is a very serious mistake for us but

:32:10. > :32:17.there it is. It's not hard to see how they win. You still haven't told

:32:18. > :32:22.me why they won. Because when you take a dissatisfaction with the

:32:23. > :32:25.status quo politically and anxiety about flat-lining incomes, worries

:32:26. > :32:34.about immigration particularly, and immigration has always been... Let's

:32:35. > :32:40.be very clear, you and I go back 30, 40 years. Immigration has always

:32:41. > :32:43.been an issue. Where you mobilise opinion around it, particularly when

:32:44. > :32:48.the British media are prepared to take your platform and run with it,

:32:49. > :32:53.a referendum in those circumstances is going to be a tough thing. But

:32:54. > :32:57.immigration has never been bigger and a lot of the British people felt

:32:58. > :33:02.not so much about the numbers coming in, as it is very well for these

:33:03. > :33:06.politicians to let the people in but they are not building the schools

:33:07. > :33:13.and hospitals. They are not building the public services that we need if

:33:14. > :33:16.these numbers are to go and they felt the British political elite on

:33:17. > :33:17.the left and right were not listening to them and they may have

:33:18. > :33:26.been right. I thought my last election campaign

:33:27. > :33:30.on immigration. I know what a strong issue it is. But the answer to the

:33:31. > :33:34.problems and the pressures from Eastern Europe in particular,

:33:35. > :33:38.because I think the Eastern European is make a good contribution to this

:33:39. > :33:42.country. You did not build the houses for them coming in, neither

:33:43. > :33:46.did the last Labour government, and this government has not built

:33:47. > :33:50.enough? That was the reaction. I would suggest it is also why the

:33:51. > :34:09.Labour Party could not mobilise its vote for a massive turnout for movie

:34:10. > :34:14.Mac. -- Remain. You were the man that made the Labour Party love the

:34:15. > :34:17.EU. That is true. We invested massively in these communities, in

:34:18. > :34:23.education and health care care particularly. What not in housing?

:34:24. > :34:26.Housing is a real issue. We have to take it seriously. The right way to

:34:27. > :34:32.deal with it is to have a housing policy for the population as a

:34:33. > :34:38.whole. The other thing about immigration, it all gets lumped

:34:39. > :34:41.together. I think a lot of people's anxieties about immigration were not

:34:42. > :34:46.centred around those from Europe of those from outside Europe, however,

:34:47. > :34:49.I do except there were communities, and when people see their

:34:50. > :34:55.communities changing around them as a result of an influx of people, you

:34:56. > :34:59.have got to deal with that. Yes, I agree, but the answer is not to get

:35:00. > :35:03.out of Europe. Would your side perhaps have won if Labour had not

:35:04. > :35:09.fought such a half hearted campaign? I have made my comments on the

:35:10. > :35:13.campaign. What is important for us is to make sure that our own people

:35:14. > :35:20.understand why we were so passionate about staying in Europe. None of the

:35:21. > :35:24.problems that our voters face, problems and pressures on housing,

:35:25. > :35:28.jobs, health care, education, they will might be resolved by leaving

:35:29. > :35:33.Europe. One of the things that will also happen over the months to come

:35:34. > :35:38.is that as this reality, I keep seeing, now you can test this by

:35:39. > :35:43.reality, as that sinks in, there will be lots of Labour voters that

:35:44. > :35:47.realised this was not a smart move that the country has made. This

:35:48. > :35:53.morning, after the sacking of Hilary Benn, a prominent supporter of movie

:35:54. > :35:57.Mike -- Remain in the Shadow Cabinet, there seems to be amounting

:35:58. > :36:03.to inside the Parliamentary Labour Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should

:36:04. > :36:16.there be at two? I was coming on this programme to talk about Europe.

:36:17. > :36:20.-- a coup. I understand why you have to ask me. I know nothing more than

:36:21. > :36:25.I have read in the newspapers and seen on in years. This is for the

:36:26. > :36:27.Parliamentary party. It is not helpful for me to intervene, so I am

:36:28. > :36:29.not going to. The former Prime Minister Tony

:36:30. > :36:39.Blair, speaking to me But not about Labour's mounting

:36:40. > :36:45.troubles today. They have just got more serious. Another Labour MP,

:36:46. > :36:52.Ivan Lewis, who is running for M -- for me than Manchester, has called

:36:53. > :36:52.on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. -- for mayor.

:36:53. > :36:54.Now Jo Coburn is here with us this morning.

:36:55. > :36:57.She's high up on the rooftops, casting her eye over events

:36:58. > :37:02.Events are so fast moving politically, the next Prime Minister

:37:03. > :37:09.in the Conservative Party leadership, and what happens to the

:37:10. > :37:10.UK after Brexit. Let's get some reaction from a former cabinet

:37:11. > :37:11.minister. With me now is the former

:37:12. > :37:14.Cabinet Minister Francis Maude, who was a Europe minister under

:37:15. > :37:23.Margaret Thatcher and negotiated You never made it clear before the

:37:24. > :37:29.referendum what side you were wrong. Can you tell us no? I am not going

:37:30. > :37:34.to see which way I voted until May direct my memoirs many years from

:37:35. > :37:39.now. You surprised by the result? I thought it would be a narrow victory

:37:40. > :37:44.for Remain but there was lots of anxiety around. My concern is that

:37:45. > :37:48.this is not a binary thing. The referendum result? The referendum

:37:49. > :37:55.clearly was, and it has to be, all or nothing, yes or no. The reality

:37:56. > :38:00.is, for quite some time, we have been a 65% per participant in the

:38:01. > :38:05.European Union. We are not part of the currency, or the Schengen

:38:06. > :38:09.agreement. At the end of this process, we should not be a

:38:10. > :38:15.nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said yesterday we are European nation. We

:38:16. > :38:18.will continue to be. The result of this cannot be pulling up the

:38:19. > :38:23.drawbridge into some sort of isolation. That is the language

:38:24. > :38:27.you're using, but the fact is the UK has voted to leave the European

:38:28. > :38:34.Union. Negotiations will start. They should not be rushed. They should

:38:35. > :38:39.not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was right when he said it is neither in

:38:40. > :38:45.Britain's or in the EU's interest for it to be rushed. There is a

:38:46. > :38:49.debate in the EU. People are talking about what happened in Britain on

:38:50. > :38:54.Thursday, but that is not a completely unique British

:38:55. > :38:58.phenomenon. But no one else has left the EU. There is anxiety about the

:38:59. > :39:02.direction of the EU in other countries, for example, the

:39:03. > :39:06.Netherlands. When I was doing European stuff 24 years ago, that

:39:07. > :39:12.was the most deeply pro-EU country that there was. That debate within

:39:13. > :39:17.the EU that someone spotted, Donald Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel

:39:18. > :39:22.has spotted it, that carrying on and assuming that this rigid doctrine,

:39:23. > :39:26.one size fits all, that approach, assuming that is the only way you

:39:27. > :39:31.can go, if that continues to be the case, there is a severe danger that

:39:32. > :39:34.the EU will spring apart. You think this could trigger a series of

:39:35. > :39:40.events that could be the beginning of the end for the EU? Unlettered

:39:41. > :39:44.reacts in a grown-up, sensible way. Why would it do that? I have heard

:39:45. > :39:49.European leaders saying that actually we have to see Great

:39:50. > :39:54.Britain, the United Kingdom, heard by leaving the EU, or what signal

:39:55. > :39:59.does it send to the one else? The signal it would send is it as an

:40:00. > :40:03.organisation which is willing to self harm in order to protect the

:40:04. > :40:08.very narrow, rigid approach to how countries collaborate and work

:40:09. > :40:11.together. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world, the

:40:12. > :40:16.biggest trading partner with our partners in the EU. To do something

:40:17. > :40:20.which damaged our economy deliberately would actually damage

:40:21. > :40:26.the European Union as well. Talking of harm... Europe would pretty soon

:40:27. > :40:31.start sneezing if we caught the cold. What about the Conservative

:40:32. > :40:36.Party? Lots of people were shocked when David Cameron resigned on

:40:37. > :40:39.Friday morning? Where you? I was disappointed. He has been an

:40:40. > :40:43.excellent Prime Minister and has led some excellent reforms. I sat round

:40:44. > :40:46.the Shadow Cabinet table with him for ten years and I am full of

:40:47. > :40:52.admiration for the leadership they give the party. It has to be his

:40:53. > :40:56.decision. I understand his view that the negotiations about the new

:40:57. > :41:01.arrangements of Britain's relationship with Europe has to be

:41:02. > :41:07.undertaken by someone who has been in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson?

:41:08. > :41:11.I have worked closely with Boris, Michael Gove, I am full of

:41:12. > :41:16.admiration for him. There are some very serious candidates. They would

:41:17. > :41:21.give the right leadership in the country and the party. Is Boris

:41:22. > :41:27.Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea, I am not in the House of Commons, so

:41:28. > :41:29.I do not know. In terms of advice, let's imagine Boris Johnson and

:41:30. > :41:34.Michael Gove are part of the negotiating team once there is a

:41:35. > :41:39.leadership contest. What would you say to them? The starting point, so

:41:40. > :41:43.far as economic relationship with our current partners in the European

:41:44. > :41:46.Union is concerned, the starting point should be that others need to

:41:47. > :41:54.show why we should not be able to trade on the same kind of bases that

:41:55. > :41:58.we do at the moment. Bielik Norway, or Switzerland? Nothing has to be

:41:59. > :42:04.quite so one size fits all as you're suggesting. There is no single

:42:05. > :42:07.model. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world. It is a

:42:08. > :42:11.different kind of relationship. It has always had a different kind of

:42:12. > :42:15.relationship within the European Union. This will be another

:42:16. > :42:20.different relationship in the future, unique and distinctive. When

:42:21. > :42:24.people start saying, of course, Britain cannot be part of the single

:42:25. > :42:30.financial market, the answer is, why not? You need to show why. Everyone

:42:31. > :42:33.has been saying that Europe as well as Britain benefits from being in

:42:34. > :42:38.the single financial market. Why would you want to commit an act of

:42:39. > :42:41.self harm to deny that? You sound as though it will be smooth and

:42:42. > :42:45.straightforward, Britain will get what it once in terms of the

:42:46. > :42:49.benefits of being in the EU, despite having left, and none of the things

:42:50. > :42:55.that the goal voted on, freedom of movement for example? Freedom of

:42:56. > :42:59.movement is coming under criticism, absolute freedom of movement, as it

:43:00. > :43:03.is framed at the moment, it has been coming under criticism from many

:43:04. > :43:08.parts of the political spectrum, both in Britain and across the EU.

:43:09. > :43:11.What was part of their original deal was freedom of movement of labour,

:43:12. > :43:16.people moving to where they had jobs. That is different from what we

:43:17. > :43:21.have seen at the moment, which is what is cause such concern, not just

:43:22. > :43:28.in Britain but in other parts of the European Union. I'll do surprise but

:43:29. > :43:30.the reaction of European Union, -- European Union leaders, foreign

:43:31. > :43:35.ministers, who are saying that this is not an amicable divorce, telling

:43:36. > :43:41.Britain to get on with it? It depends on who you talk to. Donald

:43:42. > :43:46.Tusk has not been speaking in that kind of language. Angela Merkel has

:43:47. > :43:51.not been speaking in that kind of language. It depends on who you

:43:52. > :43:54.listen to. There is no sense for European neighbours to be acting in

:43:55. > :44:00.a way that deliberately harms Britain because, by harming Britain,

:44:01. > :44:04.they harm themselves. If you inflict deliberate damage and your nearest

:44:05. > :44:11.neighbour, your biggest trading partner, that has a blowback effect

:44:12. > :44:16.on them as well. When tempers cool, I understand they are irritated by

:44:17. > :44:21.all of this, but when it comes down, and people start to think about what

:44:22. > :44:25.is in their collective self-interest, then I think you

:44:26. > :44:28.start to get a more rational, more sensible approach, which does not

:44:29. > :44:33.need to be full of hostility and anger. Have you been approached to

:44:34. > :44:39.be part of the negotiating team? I have not. Would you say yes? You

:44:40. > :44:44.have had experience and you're familiar with negotiating within the

:44:45. > :44:48.EU. I am not pitching for that. I have left the front line in politics

:44:49. > :44:53.and I am happily engaged in a new phase of my life. But it really

:44:54. > :44:57.matters that we get this right and I would be happy to advise whoever is

:44:58. > :45:01.the new government, if they wanted to hear advice. Should the key

:45:02. > :45:08.negotiating team be full of people who campaigned to leave? I think it

:45:09. > :45:13.needs to be pretty broad. This was not a massive vote. It was decisive

:45:14. > :45:18.and clear, there is no room for argument, but it was not a massive

:45:19. > :45:22.vote to leave. I think the new government and Prime Minister will

:45:23. > :45:26.need to take his or her role as leader of the nation as seriously as

:45:27. > :45:32.the role as leader of the party. Francis Maude, thank you very much.

:45:33. > :45:36.Back to you, Andrew. I have the words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP

:45:37. > :45:39.who is running for the mayor of Manchester. It is clear Jeremy

:45:40. > :45:45.Corbyn cannot lead us back to government and there is a real risk

:45:46. > :45:49.we will suffer worse election result than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No

:45:50. > :45:54.more shadow ministers have resigned so far. Maybe some of them having

:45:55. > :46:03.second thoughts after they watched interview with John McDonnell. I am

:46:04. > :46:06.joined now by one of the Conservative's leading Leave

:46:07. > :46:10.campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your road map for getting out of the EU?

:46:11. > :46:14.We need to have the establishment of the unit in Whitehall, which I would

:46:15. > :46:18.like to see Derek Rae answerable to Number 10 rather than the Foreign

:46:19. > :46:23.Office of the Treasury, to begin discussions with our European

:46:24. > :46:26.partners ahead of what would be a trigger for Article 50. Presumably

:46:27. > :46:30.when we have a new Prime Minister in place. You go along with the

:46:31. > :46:34.existing prime ministers's timetable, that Article 50 begins

:46:35. > :46:42.the formal Brexit process? You do not want a trigger that before the

:46:43. > :46:45.autumn? No. It makes sense to decide our position in the UK. We have to

:46:46. > :46:48.put mechanics in place, increase the size of the Foreign Office,

:46:49. > :46:52.established a trade department. We will want to see as members of

:46:53. > :46:56.Parliament tomorrow what work has been done in preparation for a

:46:57. > :47:01.Brexit. This idea that no contingency planning was done is

:47:02. > :47:05.preposterous. That would have been responsible. We will want to see

:47:06. > :47:09.what work has been done and we will have to get such a unit under way so

:47:10. > :47:15.that there is no vacuum being created. I have heard some people in

:47:16. > :47:19.the Leave campaign saying it could be later than the autumn that we

:47:20. > :47:24.begin the formal process. The end of the year, the beginning of the new

:47:25. > :47:28.Year. That would be difficult. You would be looking to get an exit from

:47:29. > :47:32.the European Union at the beginning of the year. The financial year of

:47:33. > :47:36.the European Union is at the start of the calendar year. That would

:47:37. > :47:42.bring added complications. You want to get it tidied up. We want to see

:47:43. > :47:45.a process that means we can leave the European Union on the 1st of

:47:46. > :47:50.January 2019. That seems like a reasonable timetable. European

:47:51. > :47:53.leaders, particularly those in Brussels, the president of the

:47:54. > :47:58.commission and so on, they do not want to wait. They want to start the

:47:59. > :48:03.discussion is now. They may not want to agree to your ideal formal

:48:04. > :48:08.discussions therefore we present the Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal

:48:09. > :48:12.talks. Article 50 only gets triggered when there is a letter or

:48:13. > :48:17.a clearer definition. It is only Britain that can trigger it? Yes.

:48:18. > :48:21.What the European bureaucrats on, the ones that are on elected and not

:48:22. > :48:25.answer book to anyone, their attitude is different to the

:48:26. > :48:30.Chancellor of Germany, who herself is facing real action next year. You

:48:31. > :48:33.will see an increasing split between the on elected bureaucrats with no

:48:34. > :48:38.one to answer two and politicians with real economies to manage. You

:48:39. > :48:44.are confident we can get meaningful, informal discussions to sketch out

:48:45. > :48:45.some principles, not necessarily details, this side of triggering

:48:46. > :48:53.Article 50? Yes and we need to begin soon

:48:54. > :49:00.because there will be a willingness from our elected parliament to be in

:49:01. > :49:04.those discussions. The brothel -- Brussels bureaucracy regard as

:49:05. > :49:07.impertinent to wanted to have leave the European Union, but we have got

:49:08. > :49:11.to do it quickly because we have got to show we have some momentum in

:49:12. > :49:18.this. Otherwise, if we create a vacuum it is a recipe for

:49:19. > :49:22.instability. Who should head up our negotiations? That is up to the

:49:23. > :49:30.Prime Minister but I think there needs to be a mixture of people who

:49:31. > :49:38.understand the views of trade experts... But who should lead,

:49:39. > :49:42.Michael Gove? He is an excellent suggestion, we also have Peter

:49:43. > :49:46.Lilley, who was involved in one of the most recent trade rounds, but we

:49:47. > :49:51.need to get it under way and Parliament needs to see what

:49:52. > :49:54.preparatory work needs to be done. Since we voted to leave, Nigel

:49:55. > :50:01.Farage has said it was a mistake to promise more money for the NHS. Dan

:50:02. > :50:05.Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave campaign never promised a radical

:50:06. > :50:09.decline in immigration. So continuing with the Department of

:50:10. > :50:17.honesty, can we now agree that there is an extra 350 million quid a week

:50:18. > :50:26.to spend on other public services? An extra 10 billion per year, but of

:50:27. > :50:31.course that is only available once we have actually left the European

:50:32. > :50:35.Union, which will be 2019, and those decisions have to be taken by the

:50:36. > :50:39.Government of the day. That will be very different from the one we have

:50:40. > :50:45.now. It is a long time in the future but what the Leave campaign, and

:50:46. > :50:49.what people didn't grasp was that it wasn't an election, they were

:50:50. > :50:54.reluctant to give future governments greater choice over the actions they

:50:55. > :51:05.could pursue if they wanted. So I will log that the 350 is more like

:51:06. > :51:10.160. Will the Tory department whittle down the leadership hopefuls

:51:11. > :51:15.to a short list of two by the time the Parliament across the road goes

:51:16. > :51:20.off to the summary says on July the 21st? It is a decision that will be

:51:21. > :51:25.taken by the 1922 committee. I think we should have a timetable similar

:51:26. > :51:31.to the one we had in 2005, not least because our party membership will be

:51:32. > :51:36.involved in the decision. What was that timetable? We didn't have the

:51:37. > :51:43.MPs' ballot until after the party conference so people could see a

:51:44. > :51:48.range of candidates they might have. So you would like a beauty parade at

:51:49. > :51:54.the Tory party conference in the first week of October that includes

:51:55. > :51:59.all of the Tory candidates? That is what we did last time, that was the

:52:00. > :52:08.system that produced David Cameron's election. Then the party... Know,

:52:09. > :52:14.first the House of Commons would have to reduce five or six

:52:15. > :52:18.candidates down to two, then the party and the country would have to

:52:19. > :52:23.decide who is right so the Prime Minister may be there until

:52:24. > :52:27.November. Potentially, under that timetable. I don't think that has

:52:28. > :52:33.huge drawbacks because we need to get that period of the pre-talks

:52:34. > :52:39.under way, then you have the new Prime Minister and can trigger

:52:40. > :52:46.article 50. Is it realistic to have a lame duck government from the end

:52:47. > :52:52.of June until the beginning of November? My view is that having

:52:53. > :52:55.that period does not make a huge difference to the process, but it

:52:56. > :53:01.might make a better choice for leadership and a better process for

:53:02. > :53:05.the party. And if it is a beauty parade at the party conference,

:53:06. > :53:11.William Fox be part of that beauty parade? I don't know, I haven't

:53:12. > :53:14.decided yet. I am thinking about it, I will make a decision once I have

:53:15. > :53:19.spoken to my colleagues in Parliament this week. And if you're

:53:20. > :53:25.hat is not in the ring, do you have a favourite you would support? I

:53:26. > :53:28.might have and you will be among the first million to know, Andrew! Thank

:53:29. > :53:51.you for that, Liam Fox. Well, Friday was a

:53:52. > :53:53.pretty dramatic day. But Thursday was also

:53:54. > :53:55.a pretty dramatic night. Adam Fleming once again

:53:56. > :54:06.behind the scenes at It is referendum night, so call in

:54:07. > :54:14.someone who has done it all before. How does this compared to presenting

:54:15. > :54:20.it in 1975? I cannot remember anything about 1975 except my hair

:54:21. > :54:34.was brown and not white. What were you doing in 1975? Were you born? I

:54:35. > :54:38.was a twinkle in my father's eye. We are going to have to do things the

:54:39. > :54:44.old-fashioned way, wait for the results to come in one by one. Early

:54:45. > :54:50.to declare Sunderland went Leave's away by more than they had expected.

:54:51. > :54:57.Newcastle opted for remain by not -- but not by a lot. It felt very

:54:58. > :55:03.close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know what is happening at this point? No,

:55:04. > :55:08.and I have just responded to a tweet sent by a colleague. And still we

:55:09. > :55:15.start to see results from the south east, because the Remain come out

:55:16. > :55:22.predicating a win on a good showing in London, Surrey, East Sussex,

:55:23. > :55:31.Hampshire, that sort of area. Until I see some results elsewhere, no,

:55:32. > :55:37.not yet. In between, politicians did radio interviews in strange places.

:55:38. > :55:42.Come round here, and there is Amber Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the

:55:43. > :55:49.kitchen. I am waiting to do an interview, it is living the dream. I

:55:50. > :55:57.will have an Americano with a dash of milk. Labour areas, lots of them

:55:58. > :56:02.voted out, but according to Labour that was actually a good thing. What

:56:03. > :56:07.do you think when you see that? It is what I was expecting. I have been

:56:08. > :56:15.saying all the way along it will be touch and go, really close. This has

:56:16. > :56:22.demonstrated exactly where the country is, fairly Eurosceptical but

:56:23. > :56:26.pragmatic and wants to remain within. Whichever way it goes, I

:56:27. > :56:29.think there will be a few percentage points either way and Jeremy will be

:56:30. > :56:34.a reflection of how the country feels and that is what you want in a

:56:35. > :56:44.leader. The percentages were not going Remain's away, as proved by

:56:45. > :56:48.the miserable faces up their party. Brexit campaigners like Jacob

:56:49. > :56:57.Rees-Mogg started to think about dreams of their own.

:56:58. > :57:00.I'm opening a fete on Saturday and that will be a great celebration

:57:01. > :57:06.Actually, I promised to take my four-year-old to the toy

:57:07. > :57:08.shop because it was his birthday yesterday and he can

:57:09. > :57:13.He may get a slightly better present if there is a Brexit.

:57:14. > :57:15.Finally, just before 5:00am, David Dimbleby declared

:57:16. > :57:19.The decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market

:57:20. > :57:22.has been reversed by this referendum to leave the EU.

:57:23. > :57:25.The action moved from the studio to Westminster and they denouement

:57:26. > :57:32.I love this country and I feel honoured to have

:57:33. > :57:39.The Prime Minister going, Britain's destiny changed,

:57:40. > :57:53.David Cameron's early morning announcement of his resignation

:57:54. > :57:55.on Friday fired the starting gun on the first Conservative leadership

:57:56. > :58:07.To stand for the party leadership, candidates only need to be

:58:08. > :58:11.If more than two candidates stand, a ballot of MPs whittles that down

:58:12. > :58:13.via first past the post, until they are left

:58:14. > :58:18.Those two are then put to the full membership of the party,

:58:19. > :58:21.said to be about 150,000 strong, who decide the winner

:58:22. > :58:26.David Cameron has said he wants a successor in place

:58:27. > :58:28.by the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, which starts

:58:29. > :58:35.But it will be the backbench 1922 Committee which decides

:58:36. > :58:43.They will meet tomorrow to set the process in train.

:58:44. > :58:51.I'm joined now by the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party

:58:52. > :59:05.Is it not inconceivable, given that the country has voted to leave the

:59:06. > :59:10.EU, that it can be anything but a Brexit leader to take over? That may

:59:11. > :59:17.be the case but it will be up to the members and Parliamentary party to

:59:18. > :59:22.decide. My point is that, given the way the country has voted, given the

:59:23. > :59:27.Conservative Party voted even more that way to leave, that you need to

:59:28. > :59:33.have a leader that embodies... Was there for the fight on that side. It

:59:34. > :59:37.may be that the party membership decides for those reasons to vote

:59:38. > :59:41.for a Brexit leader, but it may be that they vote for someone over all

:59:42. > :59:45.who they think will best serve the country and party, it is just

:59:46. > :59:50.unknown. Will they be likely to trust somebody that said vote to

:59:51. > :59:55.remain to head up the divorce negotiations to leave? I don't think

:59:56. > :59:59.that will come into the equation because the country has voted to

:00:00. > :00:03.leave, I don't believe in the second referendum. I believe our party has

:00:04. > :00:09.moved forward now so people want to consider a range of things. Who are

:00:10. > :00:13.the main candidate in your view? Who knows, because no one has put

:00:14. > :00:20.themselves forward yet. Clearly Boris will be one of them, maybe

:00:21. > :00:25.Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about Theresa May? We haven't heard from

:00:26. > :00:30.her. I'm sure we will hear from people over the next week. Including

:00:31. > :00:41.Theresa May? She seems to be missing in action. We will see. Are George

:00:42. > :00:50.Osborne's leadership hopes now in toast? We will see. The country has

:00:51. > :00:57.made its decision. You are reluctant remainer, is that fair? Yes, because

:00:58. > :01:04.with the terrorism I believe it is better to be in an alliance of

:01:05. > :01:07.democracy. I think as a party we have faced three existential

:01:08. > :01:11.challenges. One is in terms of how people perceive us and whether we

:01:12. > :01:14.are seen as a passionate Conservative Party, second way in

:01:15. > :01:18.terms of our infrastructure. If we are honest or infrastructure is

:01:19. > :01:21.dying in the country and our membership is ageing, and thirdly it

:01:22. > :01:25.will be best at restoring party unity. I want someone who will deal

:01:26. > :01:29.with those serious issues that really threaten our existence as a

:01:30. > :01:34.party. They are even more relevant because the Labour Party will get

:01:35. > :01:40.its act together and get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue

:01:41. > :01:45.has destroyed the careers of the last three Conservative prime

:01:46. > :01:48.ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John Major, now David Cameron. Is there

:01:49. > :01:52.any chance now the country has taken the decision to leave that it

:01:53. > :02:00.doesn't become the toxic issue it has been for your party? I think we

:02:01. > :02:04.should follow perhaps the 11th commandment for every conservatism,

:02:05. > :02:10.pessimism is a luxury know one should allow themselves. Obviously

:02:11. > :02:13.the renegotiations will be difficult but we need to move on and discuss

:02:14. > :02:20.other issues that are facing the country. Finally, what do you make

:02:21. > :02:23.of what Liam Fox has told this programme, that rather than MPs

:02:24. > :02:27.rushing to create the short list of two names that then goes to the

:02:28. > :02:32.wider Conservative Party and the country, to do that by July the 21st

:02:33. > :02:36.with summer hustings and a combination of the Tory conference

:02:37. > :02:41.if I can put it that way, that in fact it should all be on hold until

:02:42. > :02:45.the Tory conference and that you should have hustings there, then

:02:46. > :02:50.whittle it down to two, and have a new leader by the beginning of

:02:51. > :02:55.November. My own feeling is that it will be up to 1922 and the

:02:56. > :02:59.membership to decide. I would prefer that we don't go on forever choosing

:03:00. > :03:03.a leader. I think we need a new leader for the stability of the

:03:04. > :03:04.country, but we need someone who will put compassionate conservatism

:03:05. > :03:15.at the forefront. Your fellow MPs have to get a short

:03:16. > :03:19.list of two by July the 21st? Am not telling them, but we should have a

:03:20. > :03:24.leadership contest sooner rather than later, because the country

:03:25. > :03:26.needs stability. I will take that as a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very

:03:27. > :03:28.much. It's not just Her

:03:29. > :03:29.Majesty's Government feeling the after-shocks

:03:30. > :03:30.of Plates also appear to be

:03:31. > :03:35.shifting for Her Majesty's Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn

:03:36. > :03:37.sacking Hilary Benn from his Shadow Cabinet last night

:03:38. > :03:40.and facing a vote of no confidence at tomorrow's meeting

:03:41. > :03:41.of the The secret ballot will not

:03:42. > :03:50.have any formal status, but backers hope it will embolden

:03:51. > :03:54.others to speak out, and build an unstoppable momentum

:03:55. > :03:57.against their leader. So far, MPs, including

:03:58. > :04:02.Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field, Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt,

:04:03. > :04:04.have already said they However, in order to depose

:04:05. > :04:09.a sitting Labour leader, a challenger will have

:04:10. > :04:11.to put themselves forward, and receive the support

:04:12. > :04:14.of 20% of the party's MPs. There are currently 229 Labour MPs,

:04:15. > :04:18.so 46 would have to back the leadership challenge by writing

:04:19. > :04:20.to general secretary Iain McNicol If a nominee secures

:04:21. > :04:31.that level of support, a contest will be held

:04:32. > :04:34.at the party's autumn conference, taking place in Liverpool

:04:35. > :04:38.at the end of September. If any further MP wanted to enter

:04:39. > :04:41.the race, they would also need Voting takes place on a one member,

:04:42. > :04:49.one vote basis by Labour members, affiliates and registered

:04:50. > :04:52.supporters. If more than two candidates stand,

:04:53. > :05:03.voters will rank their preferences. If no candidates get above 50%

:05:04. > :05:05.on first preference, the last placed candidate

:05:06. > :05:07.is eliminated and their vote is transferred until one gets

:05:08. > :05:16.above the threshold. We are now hearing that another

:05:17. > :05:19.Shadow Cabinet minister has resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of

:05:20. > :05:22.the younger intake of Labour politicians from the North, ought to

:05:23. > :05:23.be in tune with what Labour needs to do in the North.

:05:24. > :05:28.With me now is the Shadow Defence Secretary Emily Thornberry.

:05:29. > :05:35.Are you going to resign? No, and I can tell you why. I think that at a

:05:36. > :05:39.time like this, when the Tory party is pulling themselves apart, when

:05:40. > :05:44.nobody has any idea with the country ought to go next, the challenge for

:05:45. > :05:48.the Labour Party is to show some leadership. And to be a centre of

:05:49. > :05:57.composure, to think about where we are going, and I think we should be

:05:58. > :06:00.thinking about the nation first. What is happening in your Shadow

:06:01. > :06:03.Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do not really understand it. We had a

:06:04. > :06:06.Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and there were lots of opportunities

:06:07. > :06:10.than for people to express what they thought. I made it clear that the

:06:11. > :06:14.defence of UI have been working on for the last 56 months would need to

:06:15. > :06:20.be redrafted. I would need to think again about it. In light of what is

:06:21. > :06:26.happening? Yes, it has a big impact on defence. It was disappointing for

:06:27. > :06:26.me but the important thing is we remain

:06:27. > :06:29.me but the important thing is we me but the important thing is we

:06:30. > :06:32.remain unified as a party and focus on what is important. The important

:06:33. > :06:37.thing is what are we going to do now. The pound is falling, look at

:06:38. > :06:45.what is happening to share prices. We need to be calm, and we need to

:06:46. > :06:48.show a bit of foresight and leadership. Focus. Now, or fall

:06:49. > :06:53.times now, people think it is a good idea to go for a leadership

:06:54. > :06:56.challenge? It is extraordinary. It seems that lots of your colleagues

:06:57. > :07:00.in the Shadow Cabinet and even more in the parliamentary party, they

:07:01. > :07:04.seem to be angry that there was not enough leadership during the

:07:05. > :07:07.referendum campaign from Jeremy Corbyn, and they do not think that

:07:08. > :07:13.Hilary Benn is a leader and they do not think he can take you to victory

:07:14. > :07:18.in 2020. That is all coming from Hilary Benn given that he ran the

:07:19. > :07:22.campaign. I'll so think that if Jeremy had been allowed, David

:07:23. > :07:27.Cameron, if he had stepped aside and let Jeremy take a leadership role in

:07:28. > :07:32.this campaign, I think we would have done better. In what way did David

:07:33. > :07:37.Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David Cameron made it all about him, about

:07:38. > :07:39.his brilliant deal, getting onto the media all the time, always being

:07:40. > :07:51.blue on blue. When I spoke Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:07:52. > :07:53.in Northern Ireland. The die has been cast and the UK

:07:54. > :07:56.has voted to leave the EU. But with years

:07:57. > :07:59.of negotiations ahead, there will almost

:08:00. > :08:00.certainly be profound implications I'll be asking the Finance Minister

:08:01. > :08:06.and the Economy Minister for their thoughts

:08:07. > :08:08.after these momentous few days. We'll hear from the Secretary

:08:09. > :08:11.of State, Theresa Villiers - a leading figure

:08:12. > :08:13.in the Leave campaign, of course. Plus our official opposition

:08:14. > :08:16.parties and Alliance, and also Dublin and Scotland

:08:17. > :08:20.as the reverberations continue. And with me throughout

:08:21. > :08:21.with their thoughts, Professor David Phinnemore

:08:22. > :08:31.and Felicity Huston. Northern Ireland voted strongly

:08:32. > :08:33.for Remain on Thursday, but that made no difference

:08:34. > :08:36.to the overall result which has caused shockwaves across Europe,

:08:37. > :08:40.cost the Prime Minister his job, and thrown the future

:08:41. > :08:42.of the Leader of the Opposition will also have

:08:43. > :08:48.major implications here. So how will the two Executive

:08:49. > :08:52.parties manage the change? Joining me now are Simon Hamilton

:08:53. > :09:03.and Mairtin O Muilleoir. Welcome. It is an unfolding

:09:04. > :09:06.situation this morning. Lots of developments in London, as far as

:09:07. > :09:10.the Labour Party is concerned, and possible developers in Scotland as

:09:11. > :09:15.well. The DUP is a Unionist party looking at the potential break-up of

:09:16. > :09:21.the UK. At that be a good thing from your point of view? Let's see what

:09:22. > :09:25.happens. It is a rapidly changing and unfolding situation. Clearly,

:09:26. > :09:31.there are issues in respect of Scotland and what Nicola Sturgeon

:09:32. > :09:33.has said. The Scottish people made a clear decision in the last few

:09:34. > :09:38.years, they wanted to remain within the European union. That is a matter

:09:39. > :09:42.for them in concert with the UK government to take forward. The

:09:43. > :09:51.people of the United Kingdom have taken a clear decision in respect of

:09:52. > :09:53.wanting to leave. I respect and understand that there are many

:09:54. > :09:58.people who have concerns about what it means for Northern Ireland, first

:09:59. > :10:03.and foremost, but for also the rest of the UK as well. We have got to

:10:04. > :10:06.deal with that decision. One thing that is clear, particularly from the

:10:07. > :10:10.Prime Minister's announcement on Friday, this will take a long period

:10:11. > :10:16.of time to work its way through. Remain campaigners throughout this

:10:17. > :10:20.process said, if you thought to leave, it will be a leap in the

:10:21. > :10:24.dark. And it has turned out to be a leap in the dark because there are

:10:25. > :10:28.so many unknowns. We don't know what will happen on so many issues. We

:10:29. > :10:32.could have a conversation about the next couple of hours and not reach

:10:33. > :10:40.any conclusions. There are also various campaigners who were

:10:41. > :10:43.spectating on doom and gloom which did not happen straight away. We

:10:44. > :10:47.have to deal with the decision in a way that is best for Northern

:10:48. > :10:52.Ireland. We need to remain calm and get some stability. We have had a

:10:53. > :10:57.pretty fractious debate at a national level. The decision has

:10:58. > :11:03.been taken. We need to work through what is best for Northern Ireland.

:11:04. > :11:12.All of the parts of the UK need to be part of the negotiations, to work

:11:13. > :11:18.together. We have a border with the EU. We need to be part of the

:11:19. > :11:28.negotiations to get the best deal for Northern Ireland. Do you accept

:11:29. > :11:32.that broad thrust, that we are where we are, we have to work through it

:11:33. > :11:36.step-by-step. There are parts of that but I accept. I want to commend

:11:37. > :11:43.those who voted to Remain. It is not often that Green and orange unite.

:11:44. > :11:49.It is the great heart. It does not matter, does it? I think the

:11:50. > :11:52.Scottish voted our vote does make it difference. I take my mandate from

:11:53. > :11:57.the people of the North who voted overwhelmingly to stay. That

:11:58. > :12:02.aspiration, as Nicola Sturgeon described it, but demand that we

:12:03. > :12:06.should be with Europe, that is how I will beg I did in the time ahead.

:12:07. > :12:10.I'm not conceding that the decision of the bulk of people in England,

:12:11. > :12:14.had their play to them, means that we have to leave as well. How will

:12:15. > :12:23.you try to put a spanner in the works? We will need to talk with

:12:24. > :12:31.common purpose. I know he was cheering on the fans, so he has lost

:12:32. > :12:36.his voice. There are things that give us common purpose. You have to

:12:37. > :12:41.respect the mandate, you have to respect the boat. You have to ask

:12:42. > :12:45.the people, did the consent to Brexit. They did not consent, and

:12:46. > :12:48.that has to guide me. You both want to work together to get the best

:12:49. > :12:52.deal, but you do not accept the basic premise that the UK has voted

:12:53. > :12:57.to leave the European Union. How can you work together when you don't

:12:58. > :13:02.except the basic verdict? I'm not disputing that a majority of the UK

:13:03. > :13:07.and thought Italy. The most important thing to me, and where I

:13:08. > :13:11.will take my lead from, is that most of the people here, orange and

:13:12. > :13:16.Green, the business community, the entrepreneurs, those who benefit in

:13:17. > :13:25.the border region, those who benefit from life sciences funding from

:13:26. > :13:30.Europe, the voted to remain. I requested contingency papers from my

:13:31. > :13:34.department, in the key areas around the economy, read European funding,

:13:35. > :13:39.around our negotiation with the Treasury. We reviewed those on

:13:40. > :13:41.Friday, we took Stark and it is our view that everything has changed. --

:13:42. > :13:50.we took Stark. There were 14 consecutive pages of

:13:51. > :13:56.chaos and crisis was not in this no man's land, it is our job to get the

:13:57. > :14:03.best deal. Our negotiation assignment is not only with the

:14:04. > :14:08.British government, as it negotiates Brexit, but also on the other side

:14:09. > :14:13.of the table. There are Irish citizens here, 1.8 million of them,

:14:14. > :14:20.so we have do meet on the other side of the table as well. That is for

:14:21. > :14:24.another day. He has got his departmental officials together, and

:14:25. > :14:28.he has looked at the numbers and he is trying to act the way forward.

:14:29. > :14:31.What about the Executive meeting? Any plans for that tomorrow? That

:14:32. > :14:40.would seem obvious. We are making this week. But not tomorrow? I don't

:14:41. > :14:42.think there is one scheduled. She it not be? People are working through

:14:43. > :14:48.the ramifications in their department. I'm sure all about

:14:49. > :14:55.Executive colleagues are trying to understand them. We are trying to

:14:56. > :15:02.understand the applications for each of their departments. As we prepare

:15:03. > :15:05.for that, senior officials in the civil service are talking to their

:15:06. > :15:08.counterparts in Whitehall, talking about counterparts in Brussels as

:15:09. > :15:11.well, to work through all of this and see what it means in the

:15:12. > :15:14.short-term. Particularly to prepare for those negotiations in this

:15:15. > :15:16.turmoil. The Deputy First Minister Martin

:15:17. > :15:33.McGuinness is being interviewed A majority people in the North,

:15:34. > :15:41.unionist, nationalists and republicans wish to remain in

:15:42. > :15:44.Europe. That cannot be ignored by the British Gutman, the Irish

:15:45. > :15:51.government or the powers that be in the European Union. What we do need

:15:52. > :15:54.in future isn't island of Ireland solution to the problem. That

:15:55. > :15:58.requires the attention of the Taoiseach in particular. I was

:15:59. > :16:03.disturbed in the course of the last few days whenever the Taoiseach

:16:04. > :16:09.focused on how so pathetic the Irish, to be to a British government

:16:10. > :16:13.that was negotiating its way out of the European Union in the next few

:16:14. > :16:24.years. The he should have been focusing on the Democratic wishes of

:16:25. > :16:33.people. I spoke to them on Friday and I have arranged an urgent

:16:34. > :16:35.meeting with the Taoiseach. There is an overwhelming desire following

:16:36. > :16:47.that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, in the EU. Why would that

:16:48. > :16:55.translate to an overwhelming desire for Irish unification? It is

:16:56. > :17:01.something that I think could be conducted at the very -- in a very

:17:02. > :17:06.civilised fashion. As it was conducted in Scotland. There is an

:17:07. > :17:11.overwhelming desire, stated just from the boat last Thursday for what

:17:12. > :17:18.you are calling for? I didn't say that there was. What I did say was

:17:19. > :17:20.that I do believe that exercise is one that should be undertaken at

:17:21. > :17:27.some stage in the future. The immediate focus needs to be on how

:17:28. > :17:30.we continue our relationship with the European Union. That is where my

:17:31. > :17:34.focus is. That is why I think the discussions with the Taoiseach are

:17:35. > :17:39.urgent, and require immediate attention. As do discussions with

:17:40. > :17:45.the powers that be at the European Union. Whenever you consider the

:17:46. > :17:59.position of Scotland, which is also over worming the -- which has all

:18:00. > :18:06.overwhelmingly voted to remain. They need to take the Democratic wishes

:18:07. > :18:11.of the people in Northern Ireland into account. That is a negotiation

:18:12. > :18:21.with the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Taoiseach, when asked about the

:18:22. > :18:24.border poll, he said there are more immediate problems to deal with, and

:18:25. > :18:30.that is where the focus should live. My focus lies on how we need to

:18:31. > :18:35.maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you're not

:18:36. > :18:37.interested in the border poll? We do believe that there should be a

:18:38. > :18:42.border poll at some stage in the future. I think in the immediate

:18:43. > :18:47.future the focus needs to be on the whole issue of how we can maintain a

:18:48. > :18:51.relationship with Europe, which has been so beneficial to us over the

:18:52. > :18:55.course of the last number of decades. Whenever you consider the

:18:56. > :18:59.dangers for us in terms of the dangers to our ability to develop

:19:00. > :19:05.our economy, the dangers to the prospect of border controls, which I

:19:06. > :19:10.think would represent a very serious undermining of the Good Friday

:19:11. > :19:14.Agreement. The whole issue of foreign direct investment, which is

:19:15. > :19:17.threatened by the decision to pull out of Europe, particularly from

:19:18. > :19:21.North America. These are the issues Chuck being exercised at the moment.

:19:22. > :19:25.But you cannot do that unless there was some sort of referendum on Irish

:19:26. > :19:31.unification. You cannot do that from within the UK since the UK has noted

:19:32. > :19:36.as a whole to leave. There needs to be special arrangements, which take

:19:37. > :19:39.account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of

:19:40. > :19:45.the North of Ireland. And the people of Scotland, who wished to remain,

:19:46. > :19:50.and maintain our contacts and ability to work with very senior

:19:51. > :19:55.officials and government authorities within Europe. So I think that, from

:19:56. > :19:59.my perspective, in the immediate future, although you are focused on

:20:00. > :20:01.the issue of the border poll, and we do believe they should be won at

:20:02. > :20:07.some stage in the future, the immediate task has to be how the

:20:08. > :20:13.democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the North of

:20:14. > :20:15.Ireland can be catered for in the context of this huge debate which

:20:16. > :20:20.will ensue over the course of the next number of months. We are very

:20:21. > :20:23.disturbed that the British Prime Minister has clearly indicated that

:20:24. > :20:28.there will be no engagement with Europe on the whole issue of Article

:20:29. > :20:32.50 until there is a new Prime Minister. Thank you.

:20:33. > :20:36.So that was the deputy First Minister in our foil studio talking

:20:37. > :20:47.to joke Cockburn in London. I want to pick up on that final

:20:48. > :20:52.point. He talked about the need for special arrangements for people in

:20:53. > :20:58.Scotland, but here in Northern Ireland in particular, to allow for

:20:59. > :21:01.the democratic wishes of people here to continue to have links with the

:21:02. > :21:08.European Union to be accommodated. Can that be done? The negotiations

:21:09. > :21:13.which will start at some point in the future, weather there is a new

:21:14. > :21:19.premise that is -- when there is a new Prime Minister in place, that is

:21:20. > :21:24.the right way to do that. I think we as an Executive should be going to

:21:25. > :21:31.those negotiations, making it clear to the new Prime Minister, the gamut

:21:32. > :21:34.in London, and to the European commission, that there are

:21:35. > :21:37.particular circumstances in Northern Ireland. We need to recognise the

:21:38. > :21:42.system of government that we have, the aspect of our economy which have

:21:43. > :21:45.different needs to England or Scotland or Wales, and the fact we

:21:46. > :21:48.will have a border will which is going to be the border of the

:21:49. > :21:54.European Union. It is an important border, one which we have made

:21:55. > :21:59.significant progress on in recent years, and we don't want to see that

:22:00. > :22:04.go backwards. But can we have a bespoke solution to this problem?

:22:05. > :22:07.Surely... People at home will be saying, these words are interesting,

:22:08. > :22:14.but you are either in the EU or you are not in the ice. Either you are

:22:15. > :22:19.in the United Kingdom, not estimate you cannot have a foot in every cap.

:22:20. > :22:25.Absolutely. We will remain as part of the United Kingdom, but the

:22:26. > :22:35.decision has been made to leave the EU. We do need... We'll be missing

:22:36. > :22:38.an opportunity not to go into these negotiations and say, while we have

:22:39. > :22:44.to deal with the decision that has been made, there must be a tailoring

:22:45. > :22:50.of options for Northern Ireland. He was the point for you. We hear that

:22:51. > :22:55.Arlene Foster took a phone call from David Cameron on Friday, I think, at

:22:56. > :23:02.Stormont Castle. He assured her that the devolved assemblies to, the

:23:03. > :23:07.devolved government would have some sort of input in the negotiations

:23:08. > :23:14.that Simon Hamilton is referring to that. He can only speak on behalf of

:23:15. > :23:20.the office alongside the Debbie to First Minister. They take

:23:21. > :23:26.diametrically opposed positions on the Mrs of the European Union. How

:23:27. > :23:31.will that work? They were both in that call with Mr Cameron, and

:23:32. > :23:38.whatever our lack of confidence in what he says, negotiating for us,

:23:39. > :23:46.God forbid, would be Boris Johnson or Michael Gove. It could be! We

:23:47. > :23:49.need to be front and centre to those negotiations. I disagree that we

:23:50. > :23:54.have to be in or out. Our status within the UK is not the same of

:23:55. > :24:00.Sunderland Newcastle, we do have a set of arrangements here which

:24:01. > :24:04.opportunity to Europe. I will not concede that our people voted to,

:24:05. > :24:10.because they did not. I remain determined to defend... So you are

:24:11. > :24:18.looking for a bespoke solution? I am not saying that. People here voted

:24:19. > :24:22.to remain. Quickly. I spoke to the CBI, there will be a recession,

:24:23. > :24:29.people will go down to the dull centres. The people who rebounded to

:24:30. > :24:32.remain will fight to defend... Martin McGuinness was out on Friday,

:24:33. > :24:36.saying that we have to have the border poll, not backed by Arlene

:24:37. > :24:42.Foster or the Secretary of State. Interesting there, saying that is

:24:43. > :24:50.not my number one priority. Is that falling back in terms of importance

:24:51. > :24:54.for Sinn Fein? We are still for a border poll, and we do believe this

:24:55. > :25:00.special set of circumstances are giving people pause to reflect,

:25:01. > :25:04.North and south of it. I have confidence that as we start these

:25:05. > :25:12.negotiations, I spoke to the Finance Minister of Scotland on Friday about

:25:13. > :25:14.this matter as well. Whatever happens to Sunderland and London,

:25:15. > :25:23.they will remain wedded to the rest of this Ireland. The House of

:25:24. > :25:29.Commons ultimately has to vote on this issue. It has to sign off on

:25:30. > :25:36.it. As I understand it, reading stuff over the weekend, about 160 of

:25:37. > :25:38.the MPs are pro-leave. Do you think that is about the Easter happen? The

:25:39. > :25:46.except that the leave camp might lose it? Even the issue of saying

:25:47. > :25:53.for certain that the United Kingdom is leaving the EU is not something

:25:54. > :25:57.we can say at this stage? The Labour Party have more important things to

:25:58. > :26:01.worry about, with what has happened this morning, but parliamentarians

:26:02. > :26:04.who would disrespect the views of the clear instructions given to them

:26:05. > :26:10.by the British people will be making a huge mistake. I completely

:26:11. > :26:15.understand the concerns of many people, particularly in Northern

:26:16. > :26:23.Ireland, who voted to remain. You're going to disregard their views?

:26:24. > :26:28.We're not going to. That is the difficulty. You are supposed to be

:26:29. > :26:32.negotiating on this place, whether you call it Northern Ireland or the

:26:33. > :26:34.North of Ireland, on behalf of all of the people. Some want to stay,

:26:35. > :26:41.some want to leave. There is not much common ground. If I may, this

:26:42. > :26:48.common purpose is that we both want the best deal for the people you

:26:49. > :26:53.represent. Your best deal is not go into be his best deal. There are

:26:54. > :26:59.unionists and nationalists on both side of the vote on Thursday. What

:27:00. > :27:04.we have to do it agree on, and we can discussion our positions on the

:27:05. > :27:09.border and England and so on, we had differences on those. What we are

:27:10. > :27:12.united on is getting the best for Northern Ireland. What we have to do

:27:13. > :27:17.is to have some calmness and stability in the next couple of

:27:18. > :27:19.weeks and discuss what is best for Northern Ireland in the discussions

:27:20. > :27:22.that will take place will stop I fundamentally believe there are huge

:27:23. > :27:31.opportunities for Northern Ireland in the new dispensation that will

:27:32. > :27:35.take place. We have to have those special circumstances that we have

:27:36. > :27:41.acknowledged. We need to look at where we are spending the money to

:27:42. > :27:43.increase the levels of investment that are coming into Northern

:27:44. > :27:55.Ireland, unshackled from the geography of Brussels. Let me ask

:27:56. > :28:03.you this about the House of Lords. Very quickly, the House of Lords EU

:28:04. > :28:05.committee, it applies a while ago, it made clear that the Scottish

:28:06. > :28:11.Parliament's consent would be required and due to the European

:28:12. > :28:13.committees act being entrenched in the devolution settlement is of

:28:14. > :28:23.Wales and Northern Ireland, there is no need for consent... Not only

:28:24. > :28:29.would Westminster have to give consent, but so would Stormont and

:28:30. > :28:34.Edinburgh. Is that right? They did not cover that piece of uncertainty.

:28:35. > :28:40.Is that a valid point? I suspect it is. It is among the many points.

:28:41. > :28:54.There were a million questions to be asked. What I would say to the

:28:55. > :28:59.DUP... Do you accept that that is something, an obstacle you will have

:29:00. > :29:03.to over come in the weeks to come question Mike I have not had a

:29:04. > :29:09.chance to look at it. The parliament is sovereign. You are not talking

:29:10. > :29:14.about it on the terraces question they were. There was a concern about

:29:15. > :29:21.exiting from the European championship. The British people

:29:22. > :29:28.have made a clear decision. People of Northern Ireland took a clear

:29:29. > :29:31.decision. We have got to respect the clear decision they made and we need

:29:32. > :29:32.to do with it in a way that produces the best possible outcome. He have

:29:33. > :29:38.to leave it there. Let's hear from my

:29:39. > :29:41.guests of the day, Felicity Huston

:29:42. > :29:54.and David Phinnemore. David, you are an academic in this a

:29:55. > :29:59.area of study. Does there need to be a vote in the House of Commons on

:30:00. > :30:03.this issue? Does Parliament have the final say? What about the House of

:30:04. > :30:09.Lords EU committee suggestion that also Scotland and Northern Ireland

:30:10. > :30:12.would have do give support for the withdrawal to take place question

:30:13. > :30:15.Mike the issue we have got is that we have never been in this position

:30:16. > :30:21.before and there is no clarity around the procedures. There is an

:30:22. > :30:31.argument that it is up to the Prime Minister to trigger it. As for

:30:32. > :30:35.whether the Scottish Parliament and Northern Ireland Assembly would have

:30:36. > :30:42.to approve as well, but is unclear. Totally unclear. Given the pressure

:30:43. > :30:45.which is coming from Scotland, the principle of consent, I think

:30:46. > :30:49.politically if not legally, there is a strong argument to say that all of

:30:50. > :30:53.because different elements of the UK would need to support the decision.

:30:54. > :30:59.That is cleared the case at the moment. It is unclear. It is not

:31:00. > :31:05.laid down in any statute or any legislation. Where are you this

:31:06. > :31:17.morning? You were and if you just tick Lever. -- you were an

:31:18. > :31:24.enthusiastic Leave campaigner. Did you think we would have this absence

:31:25. > :31:27.of clarity on Sunni France? There was a surprise that Leave one

:31:28. > :31:34.because the media, the polls, the bookies, the political class at all

:31:35. > :31:41.said that it would not win. I gather Boris Johnson thought on Thursday

:31:42. > :31:47.evening... Nigel Farage conceded defeat. He is a flaky individual at

:31:48. > :31:57.the best of times. It was a big surprise. The reason there was such

:31:58. > :31:59.a, what happens now? Is because people did not think it would

:32:00. > :32:07.happen. You could not run a government without sophisticated

:32:08. > :32:10.civil servants saying, Minister, do we not have to have a look at the

:32:11. > :32:19.alternatives? Surely that must have been going on. What happens now?

:32:20. > :32:23.WSDL have the lack of clarity. We have turmoil within the Conservative

:32:24. > :32:27.party, within the Labour Party as well. We know what is happening in

:32:28. > :32:32.Scotland. That is developing. The issue is whether this is dealt with

:32:33. > :32:34.in a hurry, as some people suggest, or as Angela Merkel suggested

:32:35. > :32:40.yesterday, there is no rush, let's not be hasty, let's work it through

:32:41. > :32:45.step-by-step. At the moment, it seems to be a bit of both of those.

:32:46. > :32:49.It is, again, we are in uncharted territory. You're getting a solid

:32:50. > :32:53.position coming out of the European union is situations, demanding that

:32:54. > :32:56.Cameron signal as soon as the what his intention is. I think there is

:32:57. > :33:03.some Flex ability from Angela Merkel. But she is indicating that

:33:04. > :33:08.it is to be by the end of this year, Article 50 triggered, but then you

:33:09. > :33:12.are into the two dear period when the negotiations will have to take

:33:13. > :33:15.place. What we also need to bear in mind is there is a long process

:33:16. > :33:19.associated with that in terms of developing what the new glacial ship

:33:20. > :33:22.would be. There is a series of negotiations which need to take

:33:23. > :33:26.place. If you got through the withdrawal within two yes, there is

:33:27. > :33:32.a longer process of establishing the relationship. One of the key issues

:33:33. > :33:33.is not just looking at the imprecations but what we want from

:33:34. > :33:44.the future agreement. Would you like it to be quick, even

:33:45. > :33:49.if it is painful? Or do you accept this could go on? I don't think it

:33:50. > :33:54.should go on because I think people who voted Leave have an expectation

:33:55. > :33:55.that things are going to happen. If nothing happens, I think that is

:33:56. > :33:58.very dangerous for the country. Thanks both -

:33:59. > :34:01.we'll hear more from you later. As we heard earlier,

:34:02. > :34:03.the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, quickly rejected

:34:04. > :34:17.Sinn Fein calls for a border poll. Thank you very much indeed for

:34:18. > :34:22.joining us on the programme. Martin McGuinness just said to my colleague

:34:23. > :34:27.it is not the number one priority as far as I am concerned but it

:34:28. > :34:33.continues to be an issue. Sinn Fein have always wanted a border poll,

:34:34. > :34:37.why do you continue to rule it out? Sinn Fein have a very long-standing

:34:38. > :34:41.position that they support a border poll but the Belfast agreement is

:34:42. > :34:46.clear that the conditions that require me to call one are the

:34:47. > :34:50.belief that there is likely to be a majority for a united Ireland. I

:34:51. > :34:53.don't believe there are such grounds, therefore the conditions

:34:54. > :34:58.are not met and the border poll would therefore not be appropriate.

:34:59. > :35:02.We do not know, because this is an evolving situation, and it could

:35:03. > :35:06.just be that the rug has been pulled from nationalists in Northern

:35:07. > :35:10.Ireland, as far as the future relationship between this place and

:35:11. > :35:14.the European Union is concerned, and perhaps someday but who are genomic

:35:15. > :35:18.have been supportive of remaining in the UK could be changing their

:35:19. > :35:23.position. The only way to change and test that is to have a border poll.

:35:24. > :35:28.There are so many challenges in Northern Ireland that would not be

:35:29. > :35:33.helped by a border poll. It does not suit your purposes, be honest about

:35:34. > :35:37.it. What we want is a period of stability to prepare for the

:35:38. > :35:40.negotiations and engaging with the Northern Ireland executive will be

:35:41. > :35:44.crucial for that because they will be the recipients of many of the

:35:45. > :35:48.powers that are going to be coming back to the United Kingdom. They

:35:49. > :35:53.will be taking decisions on how to support our farmers. They need to be

:35:54. > :35:57.at the start of these negotiations. That is why the Prime Minister

:35:58. > :36:00.emphasised that this process would involve engagements with the

:36:01. > :36:05.devolved governments. The difficulty for you now is that you are out of

:36:06. > :36:11.step with the people of Northern Ireland. You were a significant

:36:12. > :36:21.figure in the Leave campaign but people voted to remain by 56% - 44%.

:36:22. > :36:25.Can you stay in your job? I can, and we need to remember that several

:36:26. > :36:28.thousand people in Northern Ireland voted to leave. I don't think it is

:36:29. > :36:32.unreasonable for the Secretary of State to hold the same they were on

:36:33. > :36:36.this matter as the First Minister, who has just been re-elected with a

:36:37. > :36:41.significant personal mandate in the Assembly election. We need to work

:36:42. > :36:48.together, those of us on both sides of the debate, to get the best terms

:36:49. > :36:51.for the UK on exiting the European Union, in particular to safeguard

:36:52. > :36:55.Northern Ireland's interests, to keep that land border open, and to

:36:56. > :36:59.retain our status as a great place to do business with the rest of

:37:00. > :37:03.Europe. I am confident we can do that and I will be in gauging

:37:04. > :37:08.widely, not just with politicians but with the business community.

:37:09. > :37:13.Would you not be very concerned that on the issue of foreign direct

:37:14. > :37:17.investment, Northern Ireland is unlikely to be as attractive

:37:18. > :37:20.tomorrow as it was last Wednesday? For the moment, nothing changes at

:37:21. > :37:25.all, but there are huge opportunities for Northern Ireland

:37:26. > :37:31.in the event of the Brexit taking place. We take control over trade

:37:32. > :37:35.deals, that means great opportunities for doing business

:37:36. > :37:39.with the rest of the world, but we will get a good radio with the

:37:40. > :37:42.European Union. There is a free-trade zone that stretches

:37:43. > :37:45.between Iceland and the Russian border. We will be part of its own

:37:46. > :37:49.Northern Ireland will still be a fantastic place to invest in, to

:37:50. > :37:54.create jobs and do business with the rest of Europe and the rest of the

:37:55. > :37:58.world. But the point is, there was clarity before, anybody wanting to

:37:59. > :38:02.invest in Northern Ireland and create jobs were sure this was an

:38:03. > :38:06.entry point to the rest of the European Union. That is not the case

:38:07. > :38:08.in future and therefore Northern Ireland is not necessarily as

:38:09. > :38:12.attractive to international investors as it was before. But

:38:13. > :38:17.there will be clarity because we will get eight radio. There may be,

:38:18. > :38:22.but there is not at the moment, that is the point. The European Union

:38:23. > :38:27.sells far more to us than we sell to them. And we will be preparing with

:38:28. > :38:32.care for the negotiations to star in due course. It is very important

:38:33. > :38:37.that every effort is made to do those preparations. I am working

:38:38. > :38:41.with my officials, I have spoken to the First Minister and the Deputy

:38:42. > :38:51.First Minister already. I have a constructive discussion with Charlie

:38:52. > :39:01.Flanagan. The finance minister is vigorously shaking his head in the

:39:02. > :39:05.studio. I have never heard a Secretary of State so out of touch

:39:06. > :39:08.with ordinary people on the ground. The damage that has been done to

:39:09. > :39:13.business confidence by this determination to drive us out of

:39:14. > :39:16.Europe. I can tell you that it is my resolve not to be dragged out of

:39:17. > :39:22.Europe and to accept the mandate given by remain in the time ahead. I

:39:23. > :39:27.want to be part of the negotiations, I don't want to be part of your

:39:28. > :39:32.team, I want an executive team. How do you respond to that? There is the

:39:33. > :39:36.nature of the problem you are now facing. It is not as simple as you

:39:37. > :39:40.are suggesting it will be. I believe it will be very important for the

:39:41. > :39:45.Northern Ireland executive to be part of this process. What we need

:39:46. > :39:49.to do now is to have an inclusive process which takes on the concerns

:39:50. > :39:55.of remain voters as well as leave voters. I believe that we can, a

:39:56. > :40:00.Brexit vote does not mean we pull up the drawbridge, we become

:40:01. > :40:04.isolationist. Of course the UK will still be outward looking, it will

:40:05. > :40:07.have a global approach, it will be trading with the European Union and

:40:08. > :40:11.the rest of the world, and it will be engaging on it friendly way on a

:40:12. > :40:15.whole range of issues with the European Union. That is the

:40:16. > :40:20.assurance we need to give to people who voted Remain. That is a

:40:21. > :40:24.discussion that will continue in the months ahead. There is a breaking

:40:25. > :40:30.situation this morning. Nicola Sturgeon says the Scottish

:40:31. > :40:36.Parliament could veto British exit from the European Union. She

:40:37. > :40:41.believes Hollywood -- Holyrood would have two support it and she would

:40:42. > :40:47.ask MSPs to refuse such legislative consent. How do you deal with that

:40:48. > :40:52.one? Parliament is sovereign but in the weeks and months ahead, we will

:40:53. > :40:55.be working with both the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland

:40:56. > :40:59.executive on all these issues, but ultimately it is parliament's

:41:00. > :41:05.decision whether we repeal the 1972 act or whether we don't. And if

:41:06. > :41:09.parliament is sovereign, does that mean the Labour MP David Lammy is

:41:10. > :41:13.right to say that MPs have to sign off on a British exit from the

:41:14. > :41:17.European Union, you need to have a vote, and with the current make-up

:41:18. > :41:21.you would struggle big time to get that book through because, as I

:41:22. > :41:26.understand it, there is an overwhelming majority of MPs in

:41:27. > :41:30.support of remain. But we had a vote as a United Kingdom, we voted to

:41:31. > :41:31.leave the European Union, and I hope that parliament will respect that

:41:32. > :41:37.decision. Very good to talk to you. It wasn't just Northern Ireland

:41:38. > :41:40.which voted to Remain. Scotland also gave the pro-EU side

:41:41. > :41:43.a strong endorsement. People there voted 62% to 38%

:41:44. > :41:46.to stay, and now Nicola Sturgeon has begun the process for a second

:41:47. > :41:49.Scottish independence referendum. This is what she had to say this

:41:50. > :42:02.morning on the Andrew Marr Show. My challenge now as First Minister

:42:03. > :42:06.is to work out how I best protect Scotland's interests, how I try to

:42:07. > :42:10.prevent as being taken out of the European Union against our will with

:42:11. > :42:14.all of the deeply damaging and painful consequences that will

:42:15. > :42:18.entail. Independence is not my starting point in this. Protecting

:42:19. > :42:22.Scotland's interests is my starting point, but if it is the case that

:42:23. > :42:26.looking again at the question of independence becomes the only way in

:42:27. > :42:30.which we can protect Scotland's interests, that is a debate and a

:42:31. > :42:34.conversation and a decision the people of Scotland have a right to

:42:35. > :42:39.take over the next period, but in all of this, it is about protecting

:42:40. > :42:42.Scotland's interests. If we do find ourselves in a position of looking

:42:43. > :42:50.again at the independence question this is not going to be a rewritten

:42:51. > :42:53.of the 2014 referendum. The contest has changed dramatically. The UK

:42:54. > :42:58.Scotland voted to remain within in 2014 does not exist any more.

:42:59. > :43:01.Whatever happens with Scotland, this issue of a border is going to have

:43:02. > :43:07.to be resolved in the context of Ireland. Some of these issues that

:43:08. > :43:11.would arise for Scotland, not all of them, I accept, but some of them

:43:12. > :43:15.arise anyway in the Irish context and are going to have to be

:43:16. > :43:20.resolved. These are issues that are live. I don't want to see in any

:43:21. > :43:23.circumstances a border between Scotland and England. Whatever

:43:24. > :43:25.happens, England is our nearest neighbour and I hope will be our

:43:26. > :43:27.best friend. Scotland's First Minister,

:43:28. > :43:28.Nicola Sturgeon. Dublin has also expressed concern

:43:29. > :43:31.about the potential impact of Brexit to the Fianna Fail TD,

:43:32. > :43:37.Declan Brennock. But first let's go to Glasgow

:43:38. > :43:47.and journalist Gerry Braiden. Thank you very much for joining us.

:43:48. > :43:52.Let's just talk about this developing story with Nicola

:43:53. > :43:57.Sturgeon and where she believes that there is legislative consent

:43:58. > :44:02.required from Scotland, from Holyrood, to remove the UK from the

:44:03. > :44:05.European Union and she would not recommend MSPs to give that

:44:06. > :44:11.legislative consent. How significant is that? The fact that this notion

:44:12. > :44:15.has only been doomed around in the last 24 hours and that the First

:44:16. > :44:19.Minister put this into the public domain three days after the vote

:44:20. > :44:24.tells a story in itself. It seems the case that the Scotland act of

:44:25. > :44:31.$1998 appeared to set out that Scotland would require, Scotland has

:44:32. > :44:35.the power to veto this, but this has been knocking around for 18 years

:44:36. > :44:40.and it is only now we are talking about this. It seems to be that we

:44:41. > :44:45.are looking at the future on the hoof. What we have is an

:44:46. > :44:49.interpretation of the Act and it is not as prescriptive as it might

:44:50. > :44:54.appear at this juncture. We have just been speaking to the Secretary

:44:55. > :44:57.of State and she absolutely rejected the First Minister of Scotland's

:44:58. > :45:03.position on this and she said parliament is sovereign and it is

:45:04. > :45:09.absolutely not to say it, it is to Westminster to decide. Everything

:45:10. > :45:14.that we are facing over the last three days, we are in absolutely

:45:15. > :45:17.uncharted terrain, and the fact we are only talking about this now, it

:45:18. > :45:22.seems like someone has just brought this into the mix and it remains to

:45:23. > :45:26.be seen whether there is any validity to this interpretation. I

:45:27. > :45:30.would not like to say that Theresa Villiers is right or Nicola Sturgeon

:45:31. > :45:35.is right but the fact it is out there suggest it is a story. What is

:45:36. > :45:40.the mood in Scotland this morning? We have just been hearing from

:45:41. > :45:44.Martin McGuinness who said, as far as he is concerned, somehow or

:45:45. > :45:48.other, the government in Westminster has to find a way to acknowledge the

:45:49. > :45:52.views of people in Northern Ireland want this place to remain part of

:45:53. > :45:56.the European Union, so we have got to come up with some sort of bespoke

:45:57. > :46:02.solution. Is that the mood where you are? Very much so. The 2014

:46:03. > :46:06.referendum continues to dominate Scottish politics and it was always

:46:07. > :46:10.going to be the case that in the event of a Brexit, it would very

:46:11. > :46:17.much come back into the mix. Some are very notable polls this morning,

:46:18. > :46:23.synonymous with an elderly readership, socially conservative,

:46:24. > :46:30.59% of people are now voting to leave the UK. 47% of whom are

:46:31. > :46:34.pensioners. The Sunday Herald, it was the only paper to back

:46:35. > :46:39.independence in 2014 and it has a deeper sense of 35,000 people who

:46:40. > :46:45.answered their poll saying they would also backed leave. And most

:46:46. > :46:50.significantly, the daily record, traditional Labour supporting paper,

:46:51. > :46:59.pretty pro-UK in the run-up to the 2014 election, and was also the

:47:00. > :47:02.newspaper promising enhanced devolution, it is in favour of a

:47:03. > :47:08.second referendum and has suggested it would also suggested it would

:47:09. > :47:13.support to leave the UK. There is very significant traction in that

:47:14. > :47:19.direction. But at the moment, still very much a terrain where there is a

:47:20. > :47:24.lot more dark than light. Not hopelessness but very much that the

:47:25. > :47:29.default position is that people believe another referendum will

:47:30. > :47:38.happen. Very interesting to hear your thoughts. Let's hear now from

:47:39. > :47:42.Declan Brennan. Thank you very much for talking to us. Are we looking at

:47:43. > :47:47.the creation of a new relationship between the UK and the Republic of

:47:48. > :47:51.Ireland, and by definition Northern Ireland having new relationships

:47:52. > :47:57.with Great Britain and the South as well? Firstly, I would like to

:47:58. > :48:03.express disappointment on the decision. I think it is a

:48:04. > :48:09.regrettable move and a retrograde step but we as the Republic respect

:48:10. > :48:16.the decision. I personally believe that the conversation around

:48:17. > :48:21.independence should be changed to our interdependence as two islands

:48:22. > :48:26.on the periphery of Europe. It is my view and that of my party that we

:48:27. > :48:29.first of all need to get into serious discussions. I think

:48:30. > :48:40.everybody talks about calm and what I would consider chaos. I prefer to

:48:41. > :48:46.say that it is incumbent on us to ensure stability, firstly in the

:48:47. > :48:51.political system, secondly in our economic, and most importantly in

:48:52. > :48:54.the legal framework. I listened very intently to what Theresa Villiers

:48:55. > :49:01.had to say and I think you should replay it. She said in the event of

:49:02. > :49:06.an exit, I think it is dawning of realism yet that this

:49:07. > :49:10.interdependence needs to be guaranteed both from a north and

:49:11. > :49:15.South perspective in terms of making sure that nobody on this island

:49:16. > :49:18.suffers and I do think that when one looks at the 80,000 instruments that

:49:19. > :49:19.are there within the make-up of the European Union, so many

:49:20. > :49:26.imponderables. An interesting piece written

:49:27. > :49:35.yesterday in the Guardian, in which he said that the English have placed

:49:36. > :49:39.a bomb under the peace process. His point was that it now calls into

:49:40. > :49:42.question so much that was nailed down in the 1998 Good Friday

:49:43. > :49:48.Agreement, that it is impossible to say now that relations between those

:49:49. > :49:51.who were signatories to that and the sovereign governments involved, will

:49:52. > :49:54.continue, and that nationalists in Northern Ireland may choose to take

:49:55. > :50:01.a different view about their position in the UK after Brexit. Do

:50:02. > :50:07.you think he was making a valid point question of unionists have

:50:08. > :50:10.dismissed it. But a lot of nationalists say he was capturing

:50:11. > :50:21.the zeitgeist will stop the impact that the EU has had both financially

:50:22. > :50:25.and in various parts of industry and the all Ireland economy, it is in

:50:26. > :50:33.serious difficulty. When you take that Britain has white 350 billion

:50:34. > :50:37.of its finance, which is equivalent to 15 years of their contribution to

:50:38. > :50:44.the EU, I think that this island and its incumbent on Theresa Villiers

:50:45. > :50:51.and the foreign affairs Minister to work out how best we can ensure that

:50:52. > :50:57.we can still walk with the EU -- work with the EU. From a southern

:50:58. > :50:58.viewpoint, we are committed to EU. Most of the parties in the South

:50:59. > :51:14.want to be able to facilitate oration ship with

:51:15. > :51:19.Northern Ireland. There are indications for students in the

:51:20. > :51:24.South what in colleges in the UK. I think people will begin to look at

:51:25. > :51:26.what who is suffering and where sovereignty should apply.

:51:27. > :51:30.Interesting to hear your thoughts. Thank you.

:51:31. > :51:33.We've heard what the two Executive parties plan to do

:51:34. > :51:37.what about the two opposition parties and Alliance?

:51:38. > :51:40.With me in the studio are Mike Nesbitt, Naomi Long

:51:41. > :51:47.and, from our Foyle studio, Colum Eastwood.

:51:48. > :51:54.Morning tea will. Thank you for joining us. Let's talk about this

:51:55. > :52:00.Nicola Sturgeon line. She says that Hollywood has to give legislative

:52:01. > :52:04.consent to the UK pulling out of the European Union. There was a

:52:05. > :52:07.suggestion from elsewhere that Stormont would have to do likewise.

:52:08. > :52:12.What is your reading of that situation? I think it is probably

:52:13. > :52:18.true that Stormont would have do last summer legislative consent

:52:19. > :52:22.motion at the minimum. What happened has created a new age of

:52:23. > :52:26.uncertainty, and that will last longer than two years. That could

:52:27. > :52:31.last between five and ten years before we reach a solid state. One

:52:32. > :52:34.certainty is that the people have spoken and they have told us what to

:52:35. > :52:41.do, so we will have do manage that. What we need is certainty. There are

:52:42. > :52:44.two audiences we had to listen to carefully in Northern Ireland. Young

:52:45. > :52:47.people, because a lot of them are very angry with this result, and

:52:48. > :52:53.also nationalists, because the point is well made that there are a number

:52:54. > :52:58.of nationalists who over recent years have been relaxed about their

:52:59. > :53:01.aspiration for United Ireland. We have seen that as an aspiration

:53:02. > :53:05.rather than something they wish to act upon to make a reality. They are

:53:06. > :53:11.angry and we need to listen to those voices. We also need to ask the

:53:12. > :53:15.First Minister, when she goes to the negotiations, is she going to

:53:16. > :53:19.reflect the fact that 56% of the people wanted to remain? The Prime

:53:20. > :53:26.Minister, representing all the people of the United Kingdom, lost

:53:27. > :53:30.the referendum and resigned. The First Minister, lost the referendum

:53:31. > :53:37.and celebrated. Naomi Long, do you believe that MLAs, MSP 's have a

:53:38. > :53:41.right to vote on this after the referendum result? They have a right

:53:42. > :53:45.to but it is about moral authority. Do you think they are right to block

:53:46. > :53:50.it? They have the right, because Arnott has primacy. You are at odds

:53:51. > :53:57.with what the Secretary of State has said? She has said that they have

:53:58. > :54:00.primacy. They could vote not to leave, but they would have no moral

:54:01. > :54:06.authority to do so, having held a referendum, having taken the view of

:54:07. > :54:10.the people for the United kingdom, which is to leave. You talk about

:54:11. > :54:16.Hollywood and you talk about the Assembly and what the have to do is

:54:17. > :54:19.a number of things. There may be an LCM in terms of how we get consent

:54:20. > :54:25.to leave. We also have the opportunity to make decisions over

:54:26. > :54:27.specific European union rules and laws which actually apply in

:54:28. > :54:32.Northern Ireland which would again each have to be voted on here.

:54:33. > :54:37.However, Parliament remains with primacy. It can take back power from

:54:38. > :54:41.Hollywood, it can take back power from the Assembly. Let's not kid

:54:42. > :54:45.ourselves. If it sets its face to do this, while Beacon put up a strong

:54:46. > :54:51.argument against, Parliament retains primacy. Is that how you see it? No,

:54:52. > :54:55.we have been studying this in the last couple of days. We don't think

:54:56. > :55:00.the cat macro leave campaign have thought this through. They did not

:55:01. > :55:06.think they would win. They are now having to consider this. The

:55:07. > :55:09.Northern Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Parliament have the chance

:55:10. > :55:12.to say no. The European Union is stitched into the Good Friday

:55:13. > :55:20.Agreement and do our institutions and our laws. We will not be leaving

:55:21. > :55:23.the campaign -- we will not give them the chance to ride roughshod

:55:24. > :55:29.over the democratic process in Northern Ireland. They see it as the

:55:30. > :55:37.opposite. They would say you are endeavouring to ride roughshod over

:55:38. > :55:39.the referendum. I know what the blood Northern Ireland, the people

:55:40. > :55:50.of Scotland and what all young people said. But people in the UK

:55:51. > :55:53.said that they wanted to leave. I know that people in Northern Ireland

:55:54. > :55:57.voted to stay. We will do every thing in our power, and we need to

:55:58. > :55:59.get together to discuss this, we will do everything to stop us

:56:00. > :56:07.leaving bigger penal union. I know people here and in Scotland and the

:56:08. > :56:12.young people, that it will be good for us in the future. I'm not about

:56:13. > :56:16.to let the Tories decide our future. There is no dispute that those of us

:56:17. > :56:20.who were on the Remain site won the referendum in Northern Ireland, but

:56:21. > :56:25.it was a UK wide referendum. The UK Parliament still has primacy in

:56:26. > :56:28.these matters. We will want to... It is a non-binding referendum. They

:56:29. > :56:36.can make their own decision. It can be another government that make that

:56:37. > :56:41.decision. Just to be clear, you are saying that Parliament is suffering,

:56:42. > :56:44.and in future Parliament, either with this government or another

:56:45. > :56:48.government, could vote to overturn the referendum to have a second

:56:49. > :56:52.referendum. Is that what you are saying? In theory, but they would

:56:53. > :56:59.have no moral authority to do that unless the sort it from the people.

:57:00. > :57:04.By general election? That or a second referendum. They'll have to

:57:05. > :57:11.be a package of measures with Europe. The country may want to put

:57:12. > :57:15.that to the people and get their consent. We don't know, is the truth

:57:16. > :57:19.of this. We don't do what the Government will do. The Liberal

:57:20. > :57:23.Democrats say they will stand on a platform to overturn the decision.

:57:24. > :57:30.There already people coming out and saying they stand for this was the

:57:31. > :57:36.what will your MPs in West Mr and Stormont do? You cannot say that

:57:37. > :57:39.this is not binding. We said to the people, this is your chance to

:57:40. > :57:43.say... It is not a binding referendum, that is a fact. To go

:57:44. > :57:49.back to the people and say, it is not a binding referendum at this

:57:50. > :57:53.stage would be to undermine the process, and it is in a bad way

:57:54. > :58:02.already. There was a UK wide referendum. But what do you say to

:58:03. > :58:07.those who say they are committed to the people of Northern Ireland? The

:58:08. > :58:15.people here said they wanted to remain. We have to deal with that.

:58:16. > :58:18.What do you do? It is a bespoke solution, is that it? We have to

:58:19. > :58:21.understand why people wanted to remain and why people wanted to

:58:22. > :58:25.leave or stop we have do listen to the angry voices, nationalists and

:58:26. > :58:33.young people particularly. We do need a bit spoke package. Is that

:58:34. > :58:38.what we need? I have been saying since Friday morning that the point

:58:39. > :58:44.of this is the actual reality is very different from what some people

:58:45. > :58:47.have been saying. The idea that we can force a border on this island

:58:48. > :58:54.again is nonsense. We could not do it where -- when there were

:58:55. > :58:59.thousands of troops there, and we cannot do it now. Even David Cameron

:59:00. > :59:02.has said that it would not be possible to enforce a border here.

:59:03. > :59:07.That is why we need to think practically and positively about how

:59:08. > :59:10.we can remain in the EU and have all of the advantages that allows us to

:59:11. > :59:13.have. The border will be around Britain and not across the island.

:59:14. > :59:20.That is a reality that the DUP and others need to wake up to. That is

:59:21. > :59:24.not a decision that people in England were taking into account. I

:59:25. > :59:30.use an pennies to be some sort of Boulder pol? -- are you saying there

:59:31. > :59:36.needs to be some sort of border poll? I am an Irish nationalists and

:59:37. > :59:39.I believe in the relocation of our country. I want a border poll that

:59:40. > :59:43.we can win. This is not the time for that. This is a time for addressing

:59:44. > :59:50.the serious and grave concerns of people in my constituency and is the

:59:51. > :59:55.disease across the North, about us leaving the European Union. We are

:59:56. > :59:59.not about to let that wrecked our communities and businesses. We are

:00:00. > :00:03.looking at the potential break-up of the United Kingdom. We have got

:00:04. > :00:06.meltdown within the Tory party, meltdown within the Labour Party,

:00:07. > :00:10.course from nationalists for a border poll, on clear relationships

:00:11. > :00:16.within these islands. Talk about a hard border between Ireland and the

:00:17. > :00:23.rest of the UK. What are you saying to people today who support the

:00:24. > :00:27.Ulster Unionist Party, some of whom were leave voters, some of whom were

:00:28. > :00:32.remain voters, who are scratching their heads and wondering what is

:00:33. > :00:36.going on? The priority is beyond any of the local parties. The priority

:00:37. > :00:41.is the fact that the leaders of the only two parties capable of leading

:00:42. > :00:46.the country from Downing Street are lame ducks. That needs sorting out.

:00:47. > :00:53.I understand that we are about to lose out Shadow Secretary of State,

:00:54. > :00:57.a good man. I would say he will be gone before the day is out. I'm

:00:58. > :01:03.hearing from my colleagues that he is considering his position. We have

:01:04. > :01:07.two lame ducks leading the Conservative and Labour party. In

:01:08. > :01:17.terms of stability and certainty, that is the number one priority.

:01:18. > :01:22.That will take months to resolve. What do we do in the meantime? The

:01:23. > :01:26.Executive have do form an opinion on this, and we have to go forward with

:01:27. > :01:36.a single voice. At the moment, we have two first ministers. One was

:01:37. > :01:40.Remain one was Brexit. One is celebrating the result, the First

:01:41. > :01:54.Minister of Scotland is saying they will fight. Do we need and emergency

:01:55. > :02:02.Executive meeting? It is not for me to say, but I'm surprised they have

:02:03. > :02:06.not met already. What happens, surely at this stage the Executive

:02:07. > :02:08.should be together, trying to plan what the common purpose of any

:02:09. > :02:13.negotiating team that we had involved and that will be. I have to

:02:14. > :02:17.go back a bit, there are precedents for this. The kingdom of Denmark

:02:18. > :02:22.includes the Faroe Islands and Greenland, which are not members of

:02:23. > :02:28.the EU, but Denmark itself is. But there is a land border here. Of

:02:29. > :02:31.course. You don't need to tell me, I argued this all along but people

:02:32. > :02:36.dismissed it as nonsense. The idea that we won't have customs posts,

:02:37. > :02:39.I'm sorry, I drove from France to switch the land last week, there are

:02:40. > :02:44.customs posts. That is a reality of the situation. People were in denial

:02:45. > :02:48.about the chaos that would ensue. I have to say, I listened very

:02:49. > :02:51.carefully to Simon Hamilton this morning. He dismissed the volatility

:02:52. > :02:55.of the markets. Perhaps he should bear in mind that the pound may have

:02:56. > :02:59.bounced back against the euro because the euro is also now in

:03:00. > :03:03.trouble. It has not bounced back against the dollar the Canadian

:03:04. > :03:07.dollar or the yen. That is for businesses that are dealing with

:03:08. > :03:12.American companies as we sit here now.

:03:13. > :03:19.Do we need to see the Executive meeting as soon as possible to try

:03:20. > :03:24.and indicate, if nothing else, that it is trying to get to grips with

:03:25. > :03:28.the situation as far as Northern Ireland is concerned? We absolutely

:03:29. > :03:30.do but we also need to bring together all the parties in Northern

:03:31. > :03:35.Ireland that understand the devastating impact that a Brexit

:03:36. > :03:38.would have for us. I have spoken at a very senior level and they

:03:39. > :03:42.understand and they need to be our biggest advocates in these

:03:43. > :03:46.negotiations because they have a very strong hand to play. And we

:03:47. > :03:51.should not underestimate how strong our hand is as well. We will not

:03:52. > :03:52.make it easy for Northern Ireland to be dragged out of the European

:03:53. > :03:54.Union. Let's hear a few final thoughts

:03:55. > :04:02.from Felicity Huston We have heard a lot of people

:04:03. > :04:06.talking about the need to consider the wider picture and not rush into

:04:07. > :04:14.anything. What do you think needs to happen now? It could take years. I

:04:15. > :04:19.am shocked to find the executive does not have a meeting arranged for

:04:20. > :04:25.Monday morning. Whatever way the vote went, surely they were going to

:04:26. > :04:28.talk about it. I would like to see our Executive sitting down first

:04:29. > :04:33.thing tomorrow morning. There might not be a tremendous meeting of

:04:34. > :04:36.minds. Their departments will have papers prepared on this stuff and

:04:37. > :04:40.they need to sit down and talk about it and discuss whether it needs to

:04:41. > :04:46.go through the Assembly. They really should be getting on with it. You

:04:47. > :04:52.said earlier we are in uncharted waters, David. What do you make of

:04:53. > :04:55.what Nicola Sturgeon has said this morning on our Scottish sister

:04:56. > :04:58.programme that she thinks legislative consent is needed in

:04:59. > :05:03.Holyrood and she will not be recommending to her party members

:05:04. > :05:10.that they should give it? Is it a game-changing? I think it is. I

:05:11. > :05:18.think if a precedent is set there, others might follow. Politically, it

:05:19. > :05:22.is very difficult to see us giving consent to leave without some

:05:23. > :05:26.discussion in the Assembly. And what did you make of what Theresa

:05:27. > :05:29.Villiers had to say? Parliament is sovereign, she believes, but she

:05:30. > :05:33.does not think Parliament has the moral authority to have a second

:05:34. > :05:37.referendum or to say that the result of this referendum does not stand.

:05:38. > :05:42.Possibly not yet but we don't know where we are going to be in two

:05:43. > :05:47.years' time when we know the terms of the exit and the new agreement.

:05:48. > :05:53.There are lots of unknowns here. A final thought from you, Felicity? I

:05:54. > :05:56.am going to be the only person in the room was going to have an

:05:57. > :06:02.opportunity to have say on who our next Prime Minister is. Who will you

:06:03. > :06:08.be backing? Boris Johnson? Priti Patel. I think she is a wonderful

:06:09. > :06:10.woman. But I fear it will not be her.

:06:11. > :06:12.That's it from Sunday Politics after a momentous few days.

:06:13. > :06:15.Stormont Today is back as usual on BBC Two

:06:16. > :06:26.But for now, from all the team, bye-bye.