:39:37. > :39:41.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics. Tough times for Belfast
:39:41. > :39:44.traders, but can a cash injection kick start a comeback while flag
:39:44. > :39:54.protests continue? I'll be asking the city's Lord Mayor, Gavin
:39:54. > :39:56.
:39:56. > :40:02.Robinson. Also on the programme: I could have made more money outside
:40:02. > :40:05.the EU. We are not big enough to stand on
:40:05. > :40:09.our own. Following David Cameron's pledge to hold a European
:40:09. > :40:13.referendum, we'll be asking if we're better off in or out of the
:40:13. > :40:20.EU? And with us to discuss all of that, newspaper editor Jim Flanagan
:40:20. > :40:23.It's been a difficult couple of months for Belfast. The ongoing
:40:23. > :40:28.flag protests have left some city centre traders, already struggling
:40:28. > :40:31.with the economic downturn, battling for survival. But could a
:40:31. > :40:36.�400,000 funding package announced by the city council turn things
:40:36. > :40:39.round? Or could the second phase of a new bus lane project in the city
:40:40. > :40:45.centre cause even more problems? I'm joined by the Lord Mayor, Gavin
:40:45. > :40:51.Robinson. Gavin Robinson, what can spending �400,000 of ratepayers'
:40:51. > :40:57.money hope to achieve in the short- term?
:40:57. > :41:03.I think it is a hugely positive initiative. Two weeks ago, I said
:41:03. > :41:08.it was an opportunity not only to show how responsive they council is
:41:08. > :41:14.but how relevant it is to make sure our city truly works. It will not
:41:14. > :41:17.solve all the problems, but the idea of incentive rising people and
:41:17. > :41:22.animating the City it is so important for traders that have
:41:22. > :41:26.faced difficulties. We have to spend ratepayers money on something
:41:26. > :41:32.we should not really be on the tab in the first place, do you accept
:41:32. > :41:38.that? They will always be issues that arise and that you cannot plan
:41:38. > :41:43.for and it was the same in tune with the floods. When the situation
:41:43. > :41:49.has risen -- has arisen, is it important not to stand back but
:41:49. > :41:54.that we show our responsiveness and do our best to insure City traders
:41:54. > :41:57.and the hotelier's and bars and restaurants, ensure they are filled
:41:57. > :42:02.and providing for the economic survival of the city. How well the
:42:02. > :42:10.money be spent? In one respect it is a lot of money and in another
:42:10. > :42:15.respect it is quite a small amount. It is not about handouts, it is
:42:15. > :42:20.about adding to the �600,000 earmarked from the Northern Ireland
:42:20. > :42:24.Executive and adding to bargains and incentives provided by the
:42:24. > :42:30.businesses of Belfast and it supports an advertising campaign,
:42:30. > :42:34.you have seen the advertising campaign and physical advertising
:42:34. > :42:38.industry, it is about and there might -- animating areas with
:42:38. > :42:47.events that will encourage people back into the city. For the
:42:47. > :42:52.majority of City traders, there is a toxic perception but the reality,
:42:52. > :42:56.it is not there. We have seen at scores of people coming backing and
:42:56. > :43:00.acknowledging the city centre is a safe place to be. The elephant in
:43:00. > :43:03.the room is the fact that the protests are continuing. They need
:43:03. > :43:07.to stop and that is the only way this issue will be resolved once
:43:07. > :43:13.and for all and people will know they are safe to come back into the
:43:13. > :43:17.city. The truth is that we can run the City alongside the protests. If
:43:17. > :43:21.you ask whether right think they are good for the city, I don't.
:43:22. > :43:25.There is a whole range of areas where people can positively channel
:43:25. > :43:32.their frustrations in other ways and a one to encourage them to do
:43:32. > :43:38.them. There was violence again on Friday night. Petrol bombs were
:43:38. > :43:44.thrown at the police in north Belfast. No, outside of the Belfast
:43:44. > :43:48.council area. But that is not to excuse it. There is a toxic
:43:48. > :43:55.perception that people have that the city centre is not safe and it
:43:55. > :43:58.is not accurate. And it is not good for city centre trade. That is why
:43:58. > :44:06.we are incentive rising people and backing the city centre and I hope
:44:06. > :44:11.others will also. What about the issue of the bus lane and cycle
:44:11. > :44:16.lane project phase two? We know there were major problems when the
:44:16. > :44:21.first phase happen some months ago. Are you concerned that could simply
:44:21. > :44:25.poor get more difficulties on to the city in the next few weeks?
:44:25. > :44:29.was in September or October when we felt there were issues of
:44:29. > :44:33.communication and people did not know what was happening. We felt
:44:33. > :44:39.those responsible had not communicated their message and
:44:39. > :44:45.engaged with people. I had to bring people together before Christmas to
:44:45. > :44:49.make sure that Belfast on the move went forward significantly. I
:44:49. > :44:54.offered the same service for the Minister for roads and we have
:44:54. > :44:59.engaged with him thought fully and he has engaged also. The importance
:44:59. > :45:03.is there is a practical benefit for the city centre. If people want to
:45:03. > :45:07.come into the city centre for trade or hospitality or to enjoy
:45:07. > :45:14.themselves, it is important they can do themselves in a fast and
:45:14. > :45:21.efficient way. The idea that Belfast on the move isn't happening
:45:21. > :45:25.is not right. We need to know -- we need to let people know where
:45:25. > :45:30.things are taking place, but a good story for the City is how they will
:45:30. > :45:37.be an increase in ft fall and travel within the city. Stay with
:45:37. > :45:41.us because I want to put some of those points to our guests. Does
:45:41. > :45:44.let me ask you first for your thoughts about the continuing
:45:44. > :45:48.protests and the efforts on the part of the council and other
:45:48. > :45:52.government bodies to deal with it. I used drug with the Lord Mayor's
:45:52. > :45:57.you that we can run the break -- the city in tandem with the
:45:57. > :46:07.protests, do you accept that? Something like that is happening.
:46:07. > :46:09.
:46:09. > :46:13.The protests are at allocated times. So long as the police play their
:46:13. > :46:19.part and keep everything well clear at other times, but I think
:46:19. > :46:25.people... Cynically, as this might sound, people are beginning to
:46:25. > :46:30.factor this in. The money is small and it is good PR and marketing. I
:46:30. > :46:35.am conscious of other people, not just other people who go out for a
:46:35. > :46:40.meal or a bottle of wine but people organising charity functions at the
:46:40. > :46:45.City Hall. Before Christmas, I was invited to take part in a diabetes
:46:45. > :46:49.event at the City Hall which was cancelled because of the protests.
:46:49. > :46:54.People who are fit and of a certain generation know their way around an
:46:54. > :46:59.how to cope, it is whether more vulnerable people are avoiding the
:46:59. > :47:03.time because of this. Gin, you have worked in Ben fast and there the
:47:03. > :47:06.City but you are now based in Ballymena. I wonder what your
:47:06. > :47:12.perspective and that of your readers is likely to be because
:47:12. > :47:16.most of the protests have been located in Belfast. I was in
:47:16. > :47:22.Belfast myself on Friday night and there was not inconvenienced in the
:47:22. > :47:27.slightest. I went to school in south Belfast so I criss-crossed
:47:27. > :47:33.Belfast every day for years when Belfast city centre was fetchingly
:47:33. > :47:37.sift -- sealed off so traders have been through this before. As far as
:47:37. > :47:41.the on the move project go, it is a pragmatic group of people and they
:47:41. > :47:47.will put up with a bit of short- term pain for long-term gain. The
:47:47. > :47:55.big fear here is that the surgery may kill a few patients because
:47:55. > :48:00.many businesses are on life support and the possibility is that this
:48:00. > :48:06.could exacerbate the situation. is clearly not as bad as it was in
:48:06. > :48:11.the dark days, but you make the point that the violence was in
:48:11. > :48:16.Newton Abbey. That is a distinction that might pass people by but the
:48:16. > :48:20.fact is it is happening in or around Belfast. An awful lot of
:48:20. > :48:25.people are affected. That is why I mentioned the toxic perception
:48:25. > :48:30.which is not running well with the reality where people can come in.
:48:30. > :48:34.They have been scores of successful events that have continued and that
:48:34. > :48:38.is not a criticism of those that were cancelled. But there are
:48:38. > :48:43.people who are nervous and don't want to do that for whatever reason.
:48:43. > :48:46.And that is why the campaign and the funding from the executive and
:48:46. > :48:50.Traders and all that is on offer in the city centre will breathe life
:48:50. > :48:56.back into the city centre and we will encourage people to come in
:48:56. > :49:00.and let them know it is safe. I will continue to do that and back
:49:00. > :49:10.fell -- Belfast and I hope others will as well.
:49:10. > :49:10.
:49:10. > :49:13.With me now is Malachi O' Doherty and Jim Flanagan. It's been branded
:49:13. > :49:16.the "hokey-cokey vote". On Wednesday, David Cameron pledged to
:49:16. > :49:19.hold an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the next election.
:49:19. > :49:23.He described it as a decision on the UK's destiny, but just how
:49:23. > :49:26.important is Europe to Northern Ireland? Would we be better in or
:49:26. > :49:29.out in future? In a moment, I'll be putting those questions to David
:49:30. > :49:32.McNarry from UKIP and the SDLP's Conall McDevitt. But it's the
:49:32. > :49:35.farming community that's often quoted as the big beneficiary of
:49:35. > :49:42.our current relationship with Europe, so Conor Spackman headed
:49:42. > :49:47.off to Ballymena livestock market to sample opinion.
:49:47. > :49:52.So much of our income is derived from the subsidies from the easy so
:49:52. > :49:56.I think most farmers would like to see as staying in but there are so
:49:56. > :50:03.many will then regulations. It is difficult to answer. He in my young
:50:03. > :50:07.days, I could have made more money outside be in new. It is a way
:50:07. > :50:14.you're trade is and we are not big enough to stand on our own here. At
:50:14. > :50:20.the end of the day, that's where things go down so you have to be in.
:50:20. > :50:27.There is too much paperwork now for farmers. You need to be a clerical
:50:27. > :50:32.worker. If you are not in the team you cannot win. We are not an
:50:32. > :50:38.imperial nation anymore so we have to. We have to go with our European
:50:38. > :50:44.partners. It is dependent on the industry. I don't think it is ever
:50:44. > :50:48.as clear cut as a yes or No. It is good for business to have that
:50:48. > :50:51.connection. It makes it easier. You suddenly don't want a massive
:50:51. > :50:56.border that will cause problems whenever they are trying to sell
:50:56. > :51:03.between Europe and ourselves. think we are better staying in.
:51:03. > :51:06.That is what we get the EC money for, isn't it? If you can the
:51:06. > :51:14.thoughts from the community there. The SDLP's Conall McDevitt and
:51:14. > :51:20.David McNarry of UKIP are with me now. Is there any need for a
:51:20. > :51:25.referendum? It is an unhelpful development and reduces us to
:51:25. > :51:29.something like a flag wicking -- flag-waving contest between
:51:29. > :51:34.nationalists and people who understand their history and that
:51:34. > :51:41.60 million people died in Europe at the Second World War. As a result
:51:41. > :51:44.of those deaths, a pledge was made an the pretty -- Treaty of Rome --
:51:44. > :51:49.to build an ever closer union between the peoples of Rome and to
:51:49. > :51:53.remove the causes of potential future conflict. If we tinker and
:51:53. > :51:58.mess around with their huge benefits of integrating with Europe
:51:58. > :52:03.over the past 50 years we do so at our peril and no one should reduce
:52:04. > :52:08.this to a political football and I regret that is what is happening.
:52:08. > :52:12.assume you remain unconvinced? don't see those benefits and I
:52:12. > :52:19.don't think the people of the UK see them. What we have had from
:52:19. > :52:24.David Cameron was smoking areas. We have a British prime ministers
:52:24. > :52:29.saying we will have a referendum provided a win an election. As --
:52:29. > :52:34.at this moment, I wouldn't give his chances to be very good to win. His
:52:34. > :52:39.Coalition partners are not with him and he is deceiving the public. I
:52:39. > :52:45.think it will be a matter of trust. In so far of the benefits of Europe
:52:45. > :52:52.to the people of the UK, I think the rise of the UK it demonstrates
:52:52. > :52:58.the people of the United Kingdom do not see them -- the United Kingdom
:52:58. > :53:01.Independence Party, and they do not share... It maybe they just don't
:53:01. > :53:09.understand what the benefits are. Looking at Northern Ireland
:53:09. > :53:12.specifically, Farmers benefit hugely from EU membership. CAP
:53:12. > :53:15.brings in �100 million for farmers, peace programme backed projects
:53:15. > :53:21.totalling �73 million in recent years. In the past six years,
:53:21. > :53:26.Northern Ireland has received �800 million from EU - �154m a year!
:53:26. > :53:31.That is an enormous amount of money. If he took that out, we would
:53:31. > :53:40.notice the difference. I don't believe coming out of Europe we
:53:40. > :53:44.will displace that money. In terms of the United Kingdom being a net
:53:44. > :53:51.contributor to something like 8 billion pounds, that is on top of
:53:51. > :53:58.what we already do. In value, these figures... But on average, the UK
:53:58. > :54:02.is sinking up to �50 million a year. In so far as what is happening to
:54:02. > :54:06.our farming industry and the fishing industry, I represent the
:54:06. > :54:16.fishing industry and a farming industry constituency. The fishing
:54:16. > :54:17.
:54:17. > :54:23.industry has been decimated because of Europe. I think we need some
:54:23. > :54:28.semblance of reality... Just finish that point. In so far as the single
:54:28. > :54:35.farm payment is concerned, I am quite sure the money that isn't
:54:35. > :54:40.given into Europe will compensate for that. Farmers will not lose
:54:40. > :54:44.their single farm payment if we come out of Europe. Can you give an
:54:44. > :54:50.assurance like that? I don't understand how he could give that
:54:50. > :54:55.assurance. If you are a millionaire farmer sitting on prime land, you
:54:55. > :55:00.may have an issue with the Common Agricultural Policy but there isn't
:55:00. > :55:05.a farmer in Ireland, Wales or Scotland he will not recognise the
:55:05. > :55:10.fact that the way the farming is structured would not be possible
:55:10. > :55:14.except because of the EU and there are good reasons why we continue to
:55:14. > :55:18.be in there. It is about the says - - sustainability of the rural
:55:18. > :55:23.community and if you don't buy those arguments, what about the
:55:23. > :55:29.fact that Europe has been at peace for the longest periods -- period
:55:29. > :55:33.ever in its history. We tinker and mess around with the sort of
:55:33. > :55:40.poisoned politics at that sent Europe to war at our peril. We can
:55:40. > :55:43.talk about the figures... But there is a no shame that the United
:55:44. > :55:48.Kingdom Independence Party has sat into about interference by Brussels
:55:48. > :55:54.and people do not like it. That is what they read about and they are
:55:54. > :55:59.wary of. I think what they are tapping into... The evidence does
:55:59. > :56:04.not suggest the wider might of political interference. In many
:56:04. > :56:08.ways, people like me would argue there is a democratic deficit at
:56:08. > :56:13.the heart of Europe and that the EU parliament is not strong enough.
:56:13. > :56:18.What I think they are tapping into other British nationals and some
:56:18. > :56:23.sort of nonsense that we can return to the Empire in the same way some
:56:23. > :56:27.people here think we can return to the old Northern Ireland. Is that
:56:27. > :56:32.what the UK Independence Party is about? I don't think so. Here,
:56:32. > :56:37.there is a name that goes with us who are British and cling on to it,
:56:37. > :56:43.self-determination. It is a big thing here. The people of the
:56:43. > :56:50.United Kingdom are not going to vote for political union with the
:56:50. > :56:58.United States of Europe although it to be governed by France or Germany.
:56:58. > :57:04.They are not going to. No one has suggested that, have they? We are
:57:04. > :57:09.legislators and 70% of the legislation and laws that are taken
:57:09. > :57:15.through the United Kingdom actually our European laws. Europe is
:57:15. > :57:20.governing the United Kingdom. The people of the United Kingdom are
:57:20. > :57:25.saying, we want self-determination and we want to govern ourselves and
:57:26. > :57:32.make our laws and look at them. We want to take those laws through. We
:57:32. > :57:35.want to be able to be accountable. It is the case that there is a lot
:57:35. > :57:39.of UK legislation which has to beat the you compliant and it is the
:57:39. > :57:44.case that the highest court in the land it isn't in the land. Very
:57:44. > :57:49.often now things have to be well done by European judiciary figures.
:57:49. > :57:55.A highest court in the land, the European Court of Justice, isn't
:57:55. > :58:00.part of the European Union. People start these myths about the EU
:58:00. > :58:08.being the root of all evil when it is not true. If it was true, the
:58:08. > :58:12.United Nations is also the root of all evil. No one is right -- no's
:58:12. > :58:16.one an right to threat self determination is threatened by the
:58:17. > :58:25.Treaty of Rome, but what is set and his these stability in socio-
:58:25. > :58:31.economic terms. Let us drill it down to one thing. Week in the
:58:31. > :58:40.United Kingdom are so lucky we are not in the eurozone. Isn't that a
:58:40. > :58:45.godsend? We will see if that happens. Plenty of opportunities to
:58:45. > :58:48.discuss it between now and the referendum, if it happens. Thank
:58:48. > :58:52.you David McNarry and Conall McDevitt thank you. We'll hear the
:58:52. > :58:55.final thoughts of my guests Malachi O'Doherty and Jim Flanagan in a
:58:55. > :59:05.moment, after a look back at the week's political headlines in 60
:59:05. > :59:05.
:59:05. > :59:10.The DUP said it may call Sinn's Fein bluff by agreeing to a border
:59:10. > :59:15.poll and was accused of doing a U- turn, which is what drivers
:59:15. > :59:20.standard by heavy snow would love to have done. If there are lessons
:59:20. > :59:27.that can be learned from the experience over recent days we will
:59:27. > :59:34.apply those. Extra cash was promised, but the Finance Minister
:59:34. > :59:41.was annoyed that the MLA was not there to hear about it. I have good
:59:41. > :59:45.news for the Green Party that don't even turn that -- the M -- the
:59:46. > :59:48.Green Party didn't turn up. This commentators said it wasn't that
:59:48. > :59:52.simple. It is not just about getting walls
:59:53. > :00:02.down but making people secured in Interface areas so they know when
:00:03. > :00:06.
:00:06. > :00:10.the walls come down -- than they Inez McCormack died after a long
:00:10. > :00:15.illness. Now a few final thoughts. A word on
:00:15. > :00:18.the debate we have just had about Europe and whether Europe is good
:00:18. > :00:23.for Northern Ireland or whether there should or should not be a
:00:23. > :00:27.referendum. It was right to be located in identity politics and
:00:27. > :00:32.that is what is really going on here. I take that back to Northern
:00:32. > :00:36.Ireland and say, how would I feel as a Northern Ireland person in a
:00:36. > :00:41.devolved region is Britain pulled out of Europe and we ate in --
:00:41. > :00:51.ended up with a United Kingdom Independence Party. I would feel
:00:51. > :00:51.
:00:51. > :00:56.more Irish. A I would rather be in the union of Europe through Ireland
:00:56. > :01:01.than in a little Britain through Britain. I think that we have these
:01:01. > :01:04.discussions about Britain in Europe and don't consider enough how the
:01:05. > :01:10.it affects people in the regions and their sense of identity within
:01:10. > :01:13.the regions. Do you share that perspective? I have no issue with
:01:13. > :01:19.the referendum and I thought that was what the essence of democracy
:01:19. > :01:25.was. I think it is a perfectly reasonable position all the way
:01:25. > :01:30.except that... It is reasonable to say that we will have all the
:01:30. > :01:36.arguments for and against and then ask the electorate to make a mature
:01:36. > :01:41.and informed decisions. But we can't have the Ballymena editor
:01:41. > :01:45.reverse without talking about what will happen tomorrow. Liam Neeson
:01:45. > :01:50.will be conferred with the freedom of the borough tomorrow and that
:01:50. > :01:54.will be a big day, won't it? It is the hottest ticket in town.
:01:54. > :01:59.Hollywood stardust on our doorsteps! It is a measure of how
:01:59. > :02:04.far northern Ireland has come because you have eight council
:02:04. > :02:08.dominated by eight Unionists and there will be a nationalist mayor
:02:08. > :02:11.hamming over the highest accolade that can be bestowed to a member of
:02:11. > :02:15.his community. If you could bottle that and feel to it through to the
:02:15. > :02:22.rest of Northern Ireland we will be moving in the right direction.