:00:39. > :00:42.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:46. > :00:49.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:50. > :00:51.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:52. > :00:57.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:58. > :01:00.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:01:01. > :01:04.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:05. > :01:08.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:09. > :01:10.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:11. > :01:16.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:17. > :01:18.And coming up here: As election campaigning resumes
:01:19. > :01:20.after Monday's Manchester bomb attack, I'll be joined live
:01:21. > :01:23.in the studio by the leader of the SDLP, Colum Eastwood.
:01:24. > :01:28.Join me in half an hour. what the Conservatives are offering
:01:29. > :01:34.the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this
:01:35. > :01:36.morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia
:01:37. > :01:38.Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts
:01:39. > :01:43.on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,
:01:44. > :01:50.the election campaign And some recent polls
:01:51. > :01:54.suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look
:01:55. > :02:00.at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over
:02:01. > :02:03.the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third
:02:04. > :02:09.of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's
:02:10. > :02:11.Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be
:02:12. > :02:16.enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break
:02:17. > :02:18.in campaigning for And in the evening it will be
:02:19. > :02:25.the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP
:02:26. > :02:28.publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do
:02:29. > :02:31.so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's
:02:32. > :02:35.Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main
:02:36. > :02:38.parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim
:02:39. > :02:48.Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time
:02:49. > :02:49.special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,
:02:50. > :02:53.but will take questions consecutively from members
:02:54. > :02:55.of the audience. The final week of campaigning
:02:56. > :02:58.is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days
:02:59. > :03:05.of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once
:03:06. > :03:12.voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early
:03:13. > :03:14.in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always
:03:15. > :03:17.means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,
:03:18. > :03:21.if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion
:03:22. > :03:23.polls today, which have the Conservative lead
:03:24. > :03:25.over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.
:03:26. > :03:28.So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice
:03:29. > :03:30.is the expert we always turn to at times like this,
:03:31. > :03:43.and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They
:03:44. > :03:49.seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very
:03:50. > :03:52.consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare
:03:53. > :03:58.them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto
:03:59. > :04:03.launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two
:04:04. > :04:10.points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear
:04:11. > :04:15.consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this
:04:16. > :04:18.matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads
:04:19. > :04:23.are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the
:04:24. > :04:27.landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in
:04:28. > :04:37.trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is
:04:38. > :04:42.further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that
:04:43. > :04:48.young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote
:04:49. > :04:51.for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out
:04:52. > :04:55.to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls
:04:56. > :04:59.that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the
:05:00. > :05:03.Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the
:05:04. > :05:06.Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,
:05:07. > :05:14.they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The
:05:15. > :05:18.Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you
:05:19. > :05:24.look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has
:05:25. > :05:31.been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now
:05:32. > :05:34.average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of
:05:35. > :05:38.the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is
:05:39. > :05:42.I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour
:05:43. > :05:49.manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,
:05:50. > :05:52.we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the
:05:53. > :05:57.fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,
:05:58. > :06:01.together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never
:06:02. > :06:05.voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:06. > :06:09.What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather
:06:10. > :06:14.has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?
:06:15. > :06:18.This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces
:06:19. > :06:23.the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at
:06:24. > :06:28.which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to
:06:29. > :06:32.correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support
:06:33. > :06:36.a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't
:06:37. > :06:40.assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were
:06:41. > :06:48.wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls
:06:49. > :06:52.have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they
:06:53. > :06:57.are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so
:06:58. > :07:03.far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And
:07:04. > :07:07.subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low
:07:08. > :07:11.initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of
:07:12. > :07:15.movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more
:07:16. > :07:24.in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to
:07:25. > :07:29.the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be
:07:30. > :07:33.at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by
:07:34. > :07:39.Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might
:07:40. > :07:42.not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a
:07:43. > :07:47.good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was
:07:48. > :07:54.a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the
:07:55. > :07:58.Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby
:07:59. > :08:04.was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the
:08:05. > :08:07.candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the
:08:08. > :08:12.moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been
:08:13. > :08:17.a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,
:08:18. > :08:22.she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone
:08:23. > :08:25.up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do
:08:26. > :08:29.something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy
:08:30. > :08:33.like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the
:08:34. > :08:38.reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:39. > :08:41.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:42. > :08:45.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:46. > :08:48.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:49. > :08:55.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:56. > :08:59.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:09:00. > :09:04.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:05. > :09:06.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:07. > :09:12.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:13. > :09:16.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:17. > :09:22.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:23. > :09:25.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:26. > :09:29.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:30. > :09:33.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:34. > :09:38.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:39. > :09:41.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:42. > :09:48.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:49. > :09:53.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:54. > :10:01.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:02. > :10:06.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:07. > :10:10.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:11. > :10:15.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:16. > :10:20.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:21. > :10:24.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:25. > :10:29.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:30. > :10:34.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:35. > :10:37.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:38. > :10:42.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:43. > :10:45.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:46. > :10:49.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:50. > :10:55.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:56. > :10:56.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:57. > :10:59.you very much. The election campaign was,
:11:00. > :11:01.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:02. > :11:02.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:03. > :11:05.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:06. > :11:08.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:09. > :11:21.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:22. > :11:26.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:27. > :11:31.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:32. > :11:38.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:39. > :11:40.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:41. > :11:45.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:46. > :11:46.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:47. > :11:48.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:49. > :11:58.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:59. > :12:01.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:02. > :12:04.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:05. > :12:07.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:08. > :12:13.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:14. > :12:20.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:21. > :12:23.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:24. > :12:28.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:29. > :12:33.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:34. > :12:41.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:42. > :12:46.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:47. > :12:55.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:56. > :12:59.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:13:00. > :13:04.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:05. > :13:07.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:08. > :13:11.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:12. > :13:18.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:19. > :13:21.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:22. > :13:28.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:29. > :13:33.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:34. > :13:37.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:38. > :13:41.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:42. > :13:47.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:48. > :13:51.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:52. > :13:58.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:59. > :14:01.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:02. > :14:08.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:09. > :14:13.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:14. > :14:18.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:19. > :14:24.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:25. > :14:28.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:29. > :14:31.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:32. > :14:37.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:38. > :14:41.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:42. > :14:45.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:46. > :14:51.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:52. > :14:56.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:57. > :15:01.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:02. > :15:05.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:06. > :15:10.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:11. > :15:15.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:16. > :15:19.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:20. > :15:24.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:25. > :15:32.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:33. > :15:35.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:36. > :15:41.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:42. > :15:46.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:47. > :15:50.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:51. > :15:53.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:54. > :16:00.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:16:01. > :16:03.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:04. > :16:07.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:08. > :16:09.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:10. > :16:14.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:15. > :16:19.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:20. > :16:22.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:23. > :16:27.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:28. > :16:33.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:34. > :16:38.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:39. > :16:48.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:49. > :16:53.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:54. > :16:58.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:59. > :17:01.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:02. > :17:06.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:07. > :17:10.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:11. > :17:15.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:16. > :17:21.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:22. > :17:26.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:27. > :17:29.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:30. > :17:37.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:38. > :17:40.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:41. > :17:45.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:46. > :17:49.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:50. > :17:53.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:54. > :17:58.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:59. > :18:03.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:04. > :18:16.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:17. > :18:18.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:19. > :18:21.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:22. > :18:23.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:24. > :18:32.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:33. > :18:42.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:43. > :18:46.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:47. > :18:51.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:52. > :18:55.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:56. > :19:03.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:04. > :19:06.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:07. > :19:20.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:21. > :19:24.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:25. > :19:28.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:29. > :19:32.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:33. > :19:35.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:36. > :19:39.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:40. > :19:41.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:42. > :19:46.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:47. > :19:48.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:49. > :19:51.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:52. > :19:53.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:54. > :19:55.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:56. > :19:57.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:58. > :20:11.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:12. > :20:15.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:16. > :20:20.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:21. > :20:24.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:25. > :20:29.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:30. > :20:35.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:36. > :20:38.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:39. > :20:43.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:44. > :20:47.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:48. > :20:54.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:55. > :20:58.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:59. > :21:02.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:03. > :21:08.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:09. > :21:12.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:13. > :21:17.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:18. > :21:22.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:23. > :21:29.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:30. > :21:32.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:33. > :21:37.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:38. > :21:43.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:44. > :21:50.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:51. > :21:53.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:54. > :21:57.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:58. > :22:03.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:04. > :22:07.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:08. > :22:13.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:14. > :22:16.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:17. > :22:20.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:21. > :22:24.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:25. > :22:27.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:28. > :22:33.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:34. > :22:39.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:40. > :22:43.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:44. > :22:48.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:49. > :22:53.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:54. > :22:57.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:58. > :23:04.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:05. > :23:08.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:09. > :23:12.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:13. > :23:18.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:19. > :23:21.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:22. > :23:29.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:30. > :23:38.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:39. > :23:41.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:42. > :23:49.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:50. > :23:52.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:53. > :23:59.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:24:00. > :24:03.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:04. > :24:08.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:09. > :24:12.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:13. > :24:16.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:17. > :24:21.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:22. > :24:27.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:28. > :24:32.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:33. > :24:36.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:37. > :24:40.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:41. > :24:45.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:46. > :24:50.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:51. > :24:55.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:56. > :25:05.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:06. > :25:11.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:12. > :25:14.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:15. > :25:17.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:18. > :25:26.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:27. > :25:29.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:30. > :25:34.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:35. > :25:41.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:42. > :25:44.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:45. > :25:54.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:55. > :26:01.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:02. > :26:06.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:07. > :26:11.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:12. > :26:16.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:17. > :26:23.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:24. > :26:31.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:32. > :26:36.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:37. > :26:45.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:46. > :26:49.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:50. > :26:53.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:54. > :26:58.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:59. > :27:04.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:05. > :27:10.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:11. > :27:18.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:19. > :27:21.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:22. > :27:27.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:28. > :27:32.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:33. > :27:35.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:36. > :27:43.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:44. > :27:50.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:51. > :27:55.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:56. > :27:59.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:28:00. > :28:03.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:04. > :28:08.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:09. > :28:12.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:13. > :28:17.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:18. > :28:23.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:24. > :28:35.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:36. > :28:37.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:38. > :28:45.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:46. > :28:47.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:48. > :28:49.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:50. > :28:52.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:53. > :28:53.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:54. > :28:55.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:56. > :28:58.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:59. > :28:59.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:29:00. > :29:02.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:03. > :29:05.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:06. > :29:11.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:12. > :29:29.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:30. > :29:32.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:33. > :29:34.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:35. > :29:41.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:42. > :29:45.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:46. > :29:51.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:52. > :29:56.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:57. > :29:59.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:30:00. > :30:06.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:07. > :30:10.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:11. > :30:18.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:19. > :30:22.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:23. > :30:26.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:27. > :30:30.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:31. > :30:36.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:37. > :30:46.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:47. > :30:54.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:55. > :31:00.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:01. > :31:04.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:05. > :31:08.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:09. > :31:13.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:14. > :31:16.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:17. > :31:19.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:20. > :31:28.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:29. > :31:31.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:32. > :31:35.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:36. > :31:41.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:42. > :31:45.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:46. > :31:50.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:51. > :31:56.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:57. > :32:00.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:32:01. > :32:07.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:08. > :32:16.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:17. > :32:26.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:27. > :32:32.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:33. > :32:38.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:39. > :32:42.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:43. > :32:47.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:48. > :32:52.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:53. > :32:55.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:56. > :33:00.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:01. > :33:06.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:07. > :33:11.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:12. > :33:18.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:19. > :33:27.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:28. > :33:35.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:36. > :33:39.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:40. > :33:43.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:44. > :33:49.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:50. > :33:51.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:52. > :33:57.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:58. > :34:03.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:04. > :34:08.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:09. > :34:12.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:13. > :34:16.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:17. > :34:19.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:20. > :34:23.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:24. > :34:26.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:27. > :34:29.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:30. > :34:34.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:35. > :34:39.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:40. > :34:45.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:46. > :34:48.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:49. > :34:52.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:53. > :34:58.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:59. > :35:02.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:03. > :35:05.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:06. > :35:10.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:11. > :35:14.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:15. > :35:17.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:18. > :35:23.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:24. > :35:27.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:28. > :35:33.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:34. > :35:39.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:40. > :35:42.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:43. > :35:47.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:48. > :35:51.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:52. > :35:57.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:58. > :36:00.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:36:01. > :36:08.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:09. > :36:15.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:16. > :36:19.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:20. > :36:25.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:26. > :36:28.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:29. > :36:35.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:36. > :36:37.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:38. > :36:45.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:46. > :36:49.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:50. > :36:56.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:57. > :37:02.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:03. > :37:07.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:08. > :37:12.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:13. > :37:19.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:20. > :37:22.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:23. > :37:29.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:30. > :37:34.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:35. > :37:41.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:42. > :37:44.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:45. > :37:47.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:48. > :37:52.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:53. > :37:59.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:38:00. > :38:03.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:04. > :38:07.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:08. > :38:15.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:16. > :38:19.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:20. > :38:24.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:25. > :38:29.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:30. > :38:32.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:33. > :38:36.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:37. > :38:42.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:43. > :38:45.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:46. > :38:49.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:50. > :38:52.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:53. > :38:54.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:55. > :38:56.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:57. > :38:58.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:59. > :39:09.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:10. > :39:11.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:39:12. > :39:14.Election campaigning has resumed following a pause for a number
:39:15. > :39:18.of days as a mark of respect for the victims of the
:39:19. > :39:24.We'll ask how much the events of last Monday night have changed
:39:25. > :39:28.the tone of the debate in the run up to June 8th.
:39:29. > :39:30.And we'll hear from the leader of the SDLP, Colum Eastwood,
:39:31. > :39:32.on the challenge of retaining his party's three Westminster seats.
:39:33. > :39:35.Plus, here to share their thoughts on all of that and more,
:39:36. > :39:37.my guests of the day are Patricia MacBride
:39:38. > :39:49.Politicians are back on the campaign trail this weekend after a pausing
:39:50. > :39:54.as a mark of respect to those killed in the Manchester bomb.
:39:55. > :39:56.Unionists accused Sinn Fein of hypocrisy by condemning
:39:57. > :39:58.the attack but not condemning the previous IRA
:39:59. > :40:03.Sinn Fein says the criticism is outrageous and that the party has
:40:04. > :40:07.Let's hear the thoughts of Sophie Long and Patricia MacBride.
:40:08. > :40:16.Welcome to you both. Let's talk about that situation, the SDLP and
:40:17. > :40:22.alliance accuse the unionist parties are playing part of tics foot --
:40:23. > :40:35.politics by attacking Sinn Fein over this issue. Is that fair? I think it
:40:36. > :40:38.is. It's simply not going to happen. More importantly, the people who are
:40:39. > :40:44.considering voting for Sinn Fein are not going to be swayed either way
:40:45. > :40:48.whether that statement is made or not, they will vote the way they
:40:49. > :40:52.intended. It was an attempt at trying to bring her into a position
:40:53. > :40:59.where Michelle doesn't have any baggage in terms of the conflict,
:41:00. > :41:05.she was never a Republican prisoner, she has no background in that area.
:41:06. > :41:08.She has family connections. But if you delve deep enough into any one's
:41:09. > :41:15.family is, there will be connections. It is a doll and it is
:41:16. > :41:18.disingenuous politics, trying to get her to react in that way.
:41:19. > :41:21.Is it a damned if they do damned if they don't
:41:22. > :41:29.It's incredibly difficult to ask them to make these broad moral
:41:30. > :41:33.statements when their existence and their identities as a political
:41:34. > :41:37.party is founded on this partial moral view on the use of violence
:41:38. > :41:41.which a lot of her supporters still see as having some legitimacy. As
:41:42. > :41:46.Patricia points out, they are looking ahead to the election. I
:41:47. > :41:51.think on the one hand you can say that, yes, absolutely all violence
:41:52. > :41:55.is wrong. If you want to be taken as a publicly reasonable person, you
:41:56. > :41:58.cannot make any exceptions. But Sinn Fein are in a difficult spot here.
:41:59. > :42:01.Of course certain parties are tried to push them into a corner to make
:42:02. > :42:02.controversial statements and alienate themselves from their base.
:42:03. > :42:05.Jeremy Corbyn has come in for a lot of criticism for his past
:42:06. > :42:14.He has now condemned all acts of irate violence after coming under
:42:15. > :42:17.pressure to distance himself from the group's activities. To think
:42:18. > :42:22.that will continue to be an issue between now and June eight? The
:42:23. > :42:27.Tories will continue to make it an issue, but it was touring ministers
:42:28. > :42:31.who are meeting the Republicans in the 1970s, before Jeremy Corbyn ever
:42:32. > :42:33.did. We will hear more from you later in the programme.
:42:34. > :42:36.Now - will unionists ride to the rescue of the SDLP to help it
:42:37. > :42:38.hold on to its three Westminister seats?
:42:39. > :42:40.As the party comes under pressue from Sinn Fein,
:42:41. > :42:43.Colum Eastwood has called on unionists to vote for his party.
:42:44. > :42:46.Or has Brexit made them more concerned about the Union
:42:47. > :42:48.than helping the SDLP outpoll Sinn Fein?
:42:49. > :42:51.I'm joined by the SDLP leader, Colum Eastwood.
:42:52. > :42:57.Welcome to you. Thank you for joining us. It looks as though you
:42:58. > :43:01.were openly concerned that you will struggle to hold onto your receipts
:43:02. > :43:06.on June eight. How worried are you that the market decline in recent
:43:07. > :43:10.years will be accelerated in the selection? We just had an election a
:43:11. > :43:17.few weeks ago where we retained 12 seats and a reduced Assembly. The
:43:18. > :43:24.SDLP just had a very good election. You want me to list the previous
:43:25. > :43:29.elections were you did badly? We have had four campaigns in the month
:43:30. > :43:32.I've been the leader. We just had a very good election. We've gone up
:43:33. > :43:37.for the first time in a long time and I think that is a very good
:43:38. > :43:41.start. Different electoral system, much more challenging I would think
:43:42. > :43:45.for the SDLP this time around. It is and it isn't. We are in a tight
:43:46. > :43:49.fight in all three of the constituents that we hold. --
:43:50. > :43:53.constituencies. We are telling people that we are in a tight fight
:43:54. > :43:57.and we're telling people to come out and vote for us. And I think people,
:43:58. > :44:02.whether you vote for Sinn Fein, traditionally in SDLP boater or
:44:03. > :44:08.union is concerned about Brexit, the only choices to vote SDLP, we have
:44:09. > :44:11.been the most pro-European party, we campaigned against Brexit, we have
:44:12. > :44:21.worked against Brexit ever since we voted against it, we have spoken
:44:22. > :44:24.against it in the House Commons. The other party will support Theresa
:44:25. > :44:27.May, they think he is a fantastic Prime Minister and Sinn Fein won't
:44:28. > :44:34.do anything at all. A vote for Sinn Fein in the election is a wasted
:44:35. > :44:39.vote. The fight for these seats will be take, you push the unionist vote
:44:40. > :44:45.for the SDLP. How could that be considered anything other than a
:44:46. > :44:50.lasted ditch move? Diver member Martin McGuinness standing and
:44:51. > :44:56.appealing for unionist votes. I remember Jerry McAdams as well. We
:44:57. > :45:00.are asking people to vote for the party that will stand up for their
:45:01. > :45:05.interests. I am an Irish nationalist, there was no denying
:45:06. > :45:08.that or returning I am not. If you tell people, if you vote for
:45:09. > :45:12.Unionists normally or Sinn Fein, you're worried about a heart Brexit,
:45:13. > :45:16.the only party in this election in this Parliament in this Chamber who
:45:17. > :45:21.I actually stand up for you as the SDLP. I don't think anybody can say
:45:22. > :45:27.otherwise. Sinn Fein don't even go, they make it public, in this
:45:28. > :45:39.election they will have no impact at all in Westminster. It's a strange
:45:40. > :45:43.mixed mission. You are telling unionist to vote SDLP or they'll get
:45:44. > :45:47.Sinn Fein. I have not mentioned Sinn Fein when appealing for unionist
:45:48. > :45:51.votes. If people want strong representation, standing up against
:45:52. > :45:55.a hard border and heart Brexit and hard Tory government, of coarse they
:45:56. > :46:00.should vote for the SDLP. We are not going to pretend we are not Irish
:46:01. > :46:05.nationalists. Rather than Sinn Fein is what you are effectively saying?
:46:06. > :46:12.I don't think unionist will vote for Sinn Fein. Or you will get Sinn
:46:13. > :46:18.Fein? I am asking traditional Sinn Fein voters to vote for us as well.
:46:19. > :46:22.I asked for Sinn Fein voters to do the same. I am saying, if people
:46:23. > :46:27.want proper representation in Westminster, it is a pretty obvious
:46:28. > :46:32.choice. If they want to see people standing against Tory cuts, people
:46:33. > :46:35.standing against a hard border, of course they have to vote for the
:46:36. > :46:40.SDLP. Other parties won't do that. At the start of this campaign, you
:46:41. > :46:42.were at the forefront of trying to put together a pack that included
:46:43. > :46:48.your party in Sinn Fein, much to the annoyance of unionist. That pact
:46:49. > :46:52.crumbles in a few days, it was a disaster, you were exposed. Now
:46:53. > :46:59.you're turning around and saying how Unionists, over me. I was trying to
:47:00. > :47:03.create a broad-based alliance. It didn't work. Because the Alliance
:47:04. > :47:07.Party came out straightaway and told us we were all sectarian for even
:47:08. > :47:13.considering working together. That forced the Green Party... But they
:47:14. > :47:17.said... It was very clear that that is not what she was saying, Naomi
:47:18. > :47:23.Long. The Alliance Party said that the Green Party were now tainted.
:47:24. > :47:27.She did not say that. When I spoke to Naomi Long about it, she said she
:47:28. > :47:33.absolutely didn't say it, wouldn't say it and wasn't happy that it was
:47:34. > :47:36.a party statement. A party statement that was saying something like that
:47:37. > :47:42.would not go out unless I had seen it. No way. When the party, the
:47:43. > :47:45.Alliance Party say that the Green Party are tainted for working with
:47:46. > :47:51.nationalists, it's a very strange departure for the Alliance Party.
:47:52. > :47:56.You have to go looking for other party's voters to get you over the
:47:57. > :47:58.line. Where are your own voters? Every party looks for voters right
:47:59. > :48:04.across the spectrum in every election. I told you already, Sinn
:48:05. > :48:08.Fein asking for unionist votes. This is an election where we are looking
:48:09. > :48:11.for every vote we can possibly get. We are looking for traditional SDLP
:48:12. > :48:16.voters as well. Are great Richie said, when she was returned in 2015,
:48:17. > :48:21.she did it without unionist votes. She said she didn't need them. Now,
:48:22. > :48:26.surprise, surprise, she has changed her tune and she is looking for
:48:27. > :48:30.unionist votes. She always said she would take votes from anybody who
:48:31. > :48:34.wants proper representation... With a margin that she won that the bike,
:48:35. > :48:42.it meant that she didn't need all the unionist votes. She represents
:48:43. > :48:46.people from whatever background in South Down. The problem is,
:48:47. > :48:49.Margaret's main opponent won't represent anybody because he won't
:48:50. > :48:56.go to Westminster. He admits that upfront. If people vote for them,
:48:57. > :49:01.they know that is the deal. We accept that. But in this particular
:49:02. > :49:06.election with Brexit on the horizon, for any influence at all, we should
:49:07. > :49:11.go everywhere we possibly can go, whether it's a European Parliament,
:49:12. > :49:14.where Sinn Fein have four MPs out of 751, or Westminster where we have
:49:15. > :49:17.three. Etiquette is important that we turn up, give a voice to the
:49:18. > :49:20.people who are worried about the heart Brexit, goods or to a
:49:21. > :49:23.potential Tory government in the polls are now nearing so much that
:49:24. > :49:29.it looks as if we could even have a hung parliament if those polls stay
:49:30. > :49:33.the same. The idea that not turning up is a viable option in this
:49:34. > :49:44.election, I don't think it is true at all. Using Margaret Ritchie is
:49:45. > :49:48.the clear choice in South down. The reason I ask this question is that
:49:49. > :49:52.you're hugely critical of him when you are campaigning to unseat him
:49:53. > :49:59.not long ago, as party leader. Why should people believe you when you
:50:00. > :50:06.say he is up to the step? When did I say I was critical of Alasdair
:50:07. > :50:09.McDonnell? Because he wasn't... This is a battle for Westminster. The
:50:10. > :50:15.battle in South Down, whatever anybody tries to tell you it is
:50:16. > :50:20.between two people, it is between Alasdair McDonnell and Emma. Have
:50:21. > :50:24.you been out campaigning for him? It's a bit late in the campaign.
:50:25. > :50:31.Have you been out with Margaret Ritchie and Mark Durkan? A number of
:50:32. > :50:35.times. But not Alasdair McDonnell? I have a plan for next week. I was
:50:36. > :50:40.meant to be with him next Tuesday, but we took a positive campaign. He
:50:41. > :50:45.wanted 2015 with the smallest share of the vote ever in Westminster
:50:46. > :50:50.election. People in South Belfast understand that 78% of them voted to
:50:51. > :50:55.remain in the European Union. It is between Emma, who will be a
:50:56. > :51:03.cheerleader for Theresa May, or Alasdair McDonnell. They put out
:51:04. > :51:07.figures that didn't stack up, a finance minister who put up figures
:51:08. > :51:13.that didn't stand up about the results in the last number of years.
:51:14. > :51:17.I don't know the figures stack up or don't stack up, they are not here,
:51:18. > :51:20.but the SDLP vote is down in a constituency in the Sinn Fein vote
:51:21. > :51:26.is up. You don't deny that, do you? No. But even the commentators are
:51:27. > :51:29.telling us Alice McDonnell is the only chance to wind in a
:51:30. > :51:36.constituency against Emma. People on the ground understand that, the know
:51:37. > :51:40.he has stood up for them in the last couple of years. And he has won
:51:41. > :51:46.every time people have told them he wouldn't wind. It is a two horse
:51:47. > :51:49.race, between Alastair and Emma. Other candidates wouldn't see as a
:51:50. > :51:54.two horse race, but we will see in due course how that goes out. You
:51:55. > :51:58.went and put your neck on the line to get an anti-Brexit put together,
:51:59. > :52:03.and you failed. Do you accept that as a misjudgment on your part? Not
:52:04. > :52:11.at all. Would you do the same thing again with the benefit of hindsight?
:52:12. > :52:16.Absolutely. I think we should reinforce the referendum result in
:52:17. > :52:21.Northern Ireland in we should send a strong message here who don't want a
:52:22. > :52:27.heart Brexit or heart border, wanted remain in the custom union, in a
:52:28. > :52:37.single market... -- hard border, heart Brexit. There was a lot of
:52:38. > :52:42.negotiation... He doesn't want a hard border, but he wants custom
:52:43. > :52:46.checks of some sort. We will see how that goes out in the next couple of
:52:47. > :52:53.years. We had one year to negotiate this. The SDLP are on the Brexit
:52:54. > :52:57.committee in Westminster. It was the SDLP who for Steven Davis to make a
:52:58. > :53:02.concession that Northern Ireland would be able to automatically
:53:03. > :53:05.re-enter the European Union, a hugely significant thing that the
:53:06. > :53:11.British Government has accepted because in Scotland, for example,
:53:12. > :53:16.unionist debug Scotland, the Tory government have been saying that
:53:17. > :53:22.Scotland not be able to enter the European Union. -- unionist of
:53:23. > :53:27.Scotland. What other people were talking about border control what
:53:28. > :53:31.ever about Brexit, I don't know if you believe this election will be
:53:32. > :53:34.about art that, but it is about getting the institutions up and
:53:35. > :53:39.running again at storm and for a lot of people. Do you believe that is
:53:40. > :53:43.doable between the election on June eight and the deadline which is now
:53:44. > :53:49.been put by the secretary of state of June nine? -- Stormont. I am an
:53:50. > :53:53.optimist, I bequeath you do this if we get our heads together. We have
:53:54. > :53:58.been negotiating for weeks, we know how to fix this. At the people in
:53:59. > :54:01.the DUP understand they have to accept that Irishness is here to
:54:02. > :54:08.stay covered the people who care about the Irish language is here to
:54:09. > :54:13.stay. We need to get this deal done. If we change the Petition of
:54:14. > :54:17.Concern, if we put it back to where it's supposed to be, it should be
:54:18. > :54:21.used to protect rights, not blocked them. We could move forward. Other
:54:22. > :54:28.red bias, whether or not Sinn Fein will support Arlene Foster as First
:54:29. > :54:32.Minister, and one has said that they want on this side of a report...
:54:33. > :54:37.There are ways around that. I think Arlene Foster should go early to
:54:38. > :54:46.that inquiry and get that evidence out of the way and let's see that.
:54:47. > :54:54.She says should be First Minister. This incentive issues are what
:54:55. > :54:58.matter to me. -- substantive issues. I know what people to block progress
:54:59. > :55:03.on gay rights or Irish language or anything else. -- I don't want
:55:04. > :55:10.people to block. We think we he get this over the line. You think Sinn
:55:11. > :55:15.Fein wants a return to the devolved situation? They keep telling me that
:55:16. > :55:20.they do. Do you believe that? I don't know. You don't know whether
:55:21. > :55:24.to believe them? I think there was an internal debate whether it is
:55:25. > :55:28.right strategy reform them. We need to make sure there is no scorched
:55:29. > :55:33.earth, we have to work on all the issues. There was no point in
:55:34. > :55:38.winning a big mandate if you don't use it. How will we know with this
:55:39. > :55:42.election has been a success for Colin Eastwood and the SDLP? If you
:55:43. > :55:49.lose two seats come with three seats, you are in deep water. I
:55:50. > :55:53.don't know how... What I worry about is if the SDLP lose seats to people
:55:54. > :56:00.who are either going to go and support Theresa May or people who
:56:01. > :56:03.aren't going to go in the poll, but... You could lose all three
:56:04. > :56:09.seats, but you would continue being the leader. Is that what you're
:56:10. > :56:13.saying? This is my fourth campaign in 18 months. No one expected that.
:56:14. > :56:16.We have a long-term plan to change the SDLP and bring around a good
:56:17. > :56:20.change in society here. I'm confident we could do that in the
:56:21. > :56:27.long term. You're confident you will win them. If you don't win those
:56:28. > :56:32.seats, will there be an SDLP to lead? Absolutely, if there wasn't it
:56:33. > :56:35.would be a poorer place. Every election, journalists and
:56:36. > :56:39.commentators tell us that we are finished, and every election they
:56:40. > :56:46.change their mind. A few weeks ago, we came back with more seats
:56:47. > :56:48.proportionate to the Assembly. Thank you very much indeed.
:56:49. > :56:53.Let's hear more from my guests Sophie Long and Patricia MacBride.
:56:54. > :57:00.There are challenges for the SDLP. Would you be positive that it will
:57:01. > :57:05.come out to the other end of this process with its tail up or not? I
:57:06. > :57:11.did the SDLP will be in a difficult position in this election at the
:57:12. > :57:16.Assembly election, there percentage of the vote increase. They may see
:57:17. > :57:19.themselves losing seats even if that happens in this election. South is
:57:20. > :57:25.addressed and South Belfast is at risk to a DUP loss. I'm not sure not
:57:26. > :57:31.Sinn Fein can take that seat, but they are putting in a very strong
:57:32. > :57:35.fight there. What about Foyle? I don't think that is at risk at this
:57:36. > :57:42.point in time, Mark Durkan has a solid enough base. But there may be
:57:43. > :57:45.a position where SDLP vote share goes up with a number of seats go
:57:46. > :57:58.down. That would be a difficult one to spin when it came out to the
:57:59. > :58:06.other side of the election. You think that anyone will heed his call
:58:07. > :58:15.to vote for the SDLP? 85% of TV voters voted for Brexit. -- TUV. You
:58:16. > :58:17.think he will change the dynamics? There are unionist and South Danae
:58:18. > :58:23.who have voted for Margaret Ritchie in the past. And the difficulty is,
:58:24. > :58:27.in Northern Ireland, it's going to come down to keeping the extreme,
:58:28. > :58:34.which some people perceive as Sinn Fein out. Unionists might give their
:58:35. > :58:43.vote to the SDLP, but there are other issues that have not been
:58:44. > :58:50.raised in SDLP, like their strong NT opinion on women accessing sexual
:58:51. > :58:54.health services. It is quick obligated. Attend the what basis
:58:55. > :58:59.people decide to cast their ballot, doesn't it? I do agree with you.
:59:00. > :59:02.Part of this election is we are election wary after just coming
:59:03. > :59:06.through an Assembly campaign. There were certainly not the same level of
:59:07. > :59:12.dynamism as he was in the campaign. The stakes of the Messiah. This
:59:13. > :59:17.election is being fought on what are we going back to Stormont, not how
:59:18. > :59:20.we are going to deal with Brexit. -- the stakes are quite high.
:59:21. > :59:23.The Conservatives are running candidates in seven constituencies
:59:24. > :59:26.The party has failed to gain any substantial foothold over the years
:59:27. > :59:29.despite a collaboration with the Ulster Unionists which gave
:59:30. > :59:31.birth to the failed UCUNF experiment in the 2010 general election.
:59:32. > :59:33.So what do Conservatives have to offer?
:59:34. > :59:39.On the 8th of June, the option for the people of Northern Ireland and
:59:40. > :59:42.the United Kingdom is very simple. You can either vote for the
:59:43. > :59:48.coalition of chaos, Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, and of course the very
:59:49. > :59:53.clear in Northern Ireland, we have our own coalition of chaos, that is
:59:54. > :59:58.a correlation of Stormont between DUP and Sinn Fein. Just yesterday we
:59:59. > :00:06.had the updates on the RHI scandal costing upwards of ?490 million, so
:00:07. > :00:10.my message to the people ,, the great people, is that you could vote
:00:11. > :00:13.for the party of Government, the Conservative Party, to do a late
:00:14. > :00:16.with this coalition of chaos so we can move to that stronger leadership
:00:17. > :00:19.of Theresa May from the 8th of June. Mark Logan from the NI
:00:20. > :00:21.Conservatives. Patricia and Sophie
:00:22. > :00:23.are still with me. The Conservatives have never made
:00:24. > :00:32.much of an impact here - why not? The political right is a crowded
:00:33. > :00:36.field here. People have other options. There has always been a
:00:37. > :00:39.sense that they are disinterested in Northern Ireland, you could see that
:00:40. > :00:44.in the refusal of Theresa May to come here during the crisis talks. I
:00:45. > :00:51.think that speaks volumes. It is a crowded field and also people are
:00:52. > :00:58.responding to disinterest. You Seo reason for that to change in this
:00:59. > :01:02.election? -- you don't see a recent? People don't identify with the
:01:03. > :01:10.conservative party, it is as simple as that. Some do. Not in a great
:01:11. > :01:17.number. They have indications have... Success. But there was also
:01:18. > :01:22.his spectacular failure that someone left the unionist party because of
:01:23. > :01:24.the agreement that was made between the Ulster Unionist and
:01:25. > :01:28.Conservatives in the past. That was obviously a big loss. I don't see
:01:29. > :01:32.them coming back in terms of being able to secure any significant
:01:33. > :01:38.number of seats, even in local Government. Final question, again
:01:39. > :01:49.something to churches had earlier. Are voters election wary? The fact
:01:50. > :01:54.that we could have significant change Thomas we haven't been able
:01:55. > :01:58.to put this into practical use. People are losing their faith in the
:01:59. > :02:01.electoral political process. If you very much indeed. That is it from
:02:02. > :02:03.us. very much indeed. That is it from
:02:04. > :02:04.re-elected. Is the That's it - now back
:02:05. > :02:04.to Jo in London. That's it - now back
:02:05. > :02:06.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:07. > :02:20.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:21. > :02:27.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:28. > :02:31.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:32. > :02:37.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:38. > :02:41.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:42. > :02:46.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:47. > :02:52.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:53. > :02:58.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:59. > :03:02.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:03. > :03:07.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:08. > :03:12.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:13. > :03:17.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:18. > :03:26.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:27. > :03:29.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:30. > :03:34.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:35. > :03:42.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:43. > :03:49.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:50. > :03:53.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:54. > :03:56.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:57. > :04:02.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:03. > :04:08.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:09. > :04:15.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:16. > :04:19.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:20. > :04:24.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:25. > :04:31.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:32. > :04:36.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:37. > :04:42.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:43. > :04:49.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:50. > :04:56.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:57. > :05:02.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:03. > :05:08.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:09. > :05:15.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:16. > :05:19.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:20. > :05:24.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:25. > :05:27.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:28. > :05:34.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:35. > :05:41.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:42. > :05:45.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:46. > :05:50.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:51. > :05:56.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:57. > :05:59.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:06:00. > :06:03.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:04. > :06:08.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:09. > :06:16.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:17. > :06:21.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:22. > :06:26.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:27. > :06:31.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:32. > :06:35.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:36. > :06:42.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:43. > :06:47.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:48. > :06:51.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:52. > :06:55.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:56. > :06:59.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:07:00. > :07:04.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:05. > :07:08.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:09. > :07:11.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:12. > :07:18.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:19. > :07:23.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:24. > :07:28.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:29. > :07:31.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:32. > :07:36.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:37. > :07:40.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:41. > :07:44.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:45. > :07:48.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:49. > :07:53.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:54. > :07:59.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:08:00. > :08:09.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:10. > :08:13.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:14. > :08:21.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:22. > :08:25.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:26. > :08:31.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:32. > :08:37.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:38. > :08:41.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:42. > :08:47.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:48. > :08:52.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:53. > :08:58.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:59. > :09:03.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:04. > :09:07.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:08. > :09:11.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:12. > :09:15.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:16. > :09:22.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:23. > :09:27.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:28. > :09:32.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:33. > :09:37.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:38. > :09:41.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:42. > :09:45.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:46. > :09:49.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:50. > :09:54.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:55. > :09:57.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:58. > :10:02.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:03. > :10:08.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:09. > :10:12.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:13. > :10:15.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:16. > :10:22.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:23. > :10:26.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:27. > :10:32.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:33. > :10:37.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:38. > :10:44.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:45. > :10:47.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:48. > :10:54.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:55. > :10:57.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:58. > :11:03.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:04. > :11:09.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:10. > :11:12.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:13. > :11:17.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:18. > :11:24.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:25. > :11:29.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:30. > :11:34.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:35. > :11:35.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour
:11:36. > :11:44.are beyond mad. Who do you think are beyond mad. Who do you think
:11:45. > :11:49.Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole
:11:50. > :11:56.log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will
:11:57. > :12:06.explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or
:12:07. > :12:10.six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.
:12:11. > :12:14.It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely
:12:15. > :12:19.on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool
:12:20. > :12:23.of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public
:12:24. > :12:26.performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,
:12:27. > :12:35.who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good
:12:36. > :12:43.performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.
:12:44. > :12:48.But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very
:12:49. > :12:52.illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be
:12:53. > :12:56.there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is
:12:57. > :13:00.froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the
:13:01. > :13:05.leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking
:13:06. > :13:08.about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the
:13:09. > :13:15.theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.
:13:16. > :13:23.Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank
:13:24. > :13:29.the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I
:13:30. > :13:33.will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily
:13:34. > :13:35.politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all
:13:36. > :14:05.of us here, bye-bye. It's cold.
:14:06. > :14:10.Tastes a bit like avocado. And soon we're all
:14:11. > :14:14.going to be eating them. Four crickets have the same amount
:14:15. > :14:18.of calcium as a glass of milk,