:00:20. > :00:45.do with the lack of talent, it is Sunday Politics. David Cameron
:00:45. > :00:49.rushes out a scheme to help house-buyers with deposits. Is he
:00:49. > :00:53.merely stoking a new house price bubble? As Tory activist 's gather
:00:53. > :00:58.merely stoking a new house price in Manchester, we will have the
:00:58. > :01:00.results of our exclusive survey of Conservative councillors. I will be
:01:00. > :01:06.speaking to Foreign Secretary William Hague. And Ed Miliband made
:01:06. > :01:08.headlines with his pledge to freeze energy prices for 20 months after
:01:08. > :01:11.headlines with his pledge to freeze the next election. But does the new
:01:11. > :01:15.And coming up here - a drama, a Energy
:01:15. > :01:19.And coming up here - a drama, a crisis or a little local difficulty?
:01:19. > :01:23.We hear live from the Secretary of State. And could some Northerners
:01:23. > :01:24.get a vote for the next President of Ireland?
:01:24. > :01:26.Underground should be made illegal, something the Prime Minister doesn't
:01:26. > :01:43.rule out. With me are a trio of top political
:01:43. > :01:48.commentators. All three will be tweeting their thoughts, or in some
:01:48. > :01:54.cases just their thought through the show, using the hashtag #bbcsp. The
:01:54. > :01:59.Conservative Party conference gets under way in Manchester this
:01:59. > :02:02.afternoon. We have already been bombarded with a series of policy
:02:02. > :02:07.announcements, a tax break for married couples of up to £200 per
:02:07. > :02:11.year, more money on life extending cancer treatments and, last night,
:02:11. > :02:14.the news that the second stage of the Chancellor's Help To Buy scheme
:02:14. > :02:18.will start next week. That is brought forward from the start of
:02:18. > :02:24.next year. David Cameron says it is all about helping hard-working
:02:24. > :02:29.people. Right now, you can't get, it's very difficult to get, a 90% or
:02:29. > :02:34.95% mortgage. That means a typical family with two people earning
:02:34. > :02:36.20,000, 25,000, they are being asked, to buy an average house, they
:02:36. > :02:41.20,000, 25,000, they are being are being asked to find a £40,000
:02:41. > :02:44.deposit. They can afford the mortgage payment, but they can't get
:02:44. > :02:47.the mortgage. They can't buy their flat or house. As Prime Minister,
:02:47. > :02:51.I'm not going to stand back while people's aspirations to get on the
:02:51. > :02:57.housing ladder, to own their own flat or home, is being trashed. That
:02:57. > :03:02.is why we need to act. A predictable attempt by party leadership to
:03:02. > :03:05.kick-start the conference with eye-catching policies. The polls
:03:05. > :03:09.show a big bounce for Ed Miliband and the Labour Party, with decent
:03:09. > :03:13.numbers for UKIP. What do party activists think about David
:03:13. > :03:18.Cameron's leadership and the challenge posed by UKIP? Adam
:03:18. > :03:23.Fleming has been meeting Tory councillors as they travel to their
:03:23. > :03:27.party conference. For the Conservatives this weekend,
:03:27. > :03:35.all roads and trams lead to Manchester for their party
:03:35. > :03:36.conference, and as a scene setter we asked ComRes to survey councillors
:03:36. > :03:43.are Finland and Wales. Councillors asked ComRes to survey councillors
:03:43. > :03:48.like Tom, packing for conference at home in Wellingborough. Immigration
:03:48. > :03:53.is an issue for him. He thinks there are pros and cons. But we found that
:03:53. > :03:58.54% of his colleagues feel immigration has had a negative
:03:58. > :04:01.impact on the UK. I think it reflects into this wider issue of
:04:01. > :04:06.our relationship with Europe. People are very concerned about the
:04:06. > :04:13.possible influx of ovarian and Romania emigrants. Obviously the
:04:13. > :04:20.issue of Europe is very big. -- Ukrainian. His colleagues in Corby
:04:20. > :04:25.are worried about the rise of the UK Independence Party. In our survey,
:04:25. > :04:30.nearly a quarter of Conservative councillors thought that their party
:04:30. > :04:37.should make a pact with UKIP. The concern is, yes, will they take
:04:37. > :04:41.votes away from ourselves in 2015? If that happens, maybe we don't get
:04:41. > :04:45.back in. Maybe a partnership is the way to go. It depends what they want
:04:45. > :04:50.and we want. But we should be talking about them. A pact? Depends
:04:50. > :05:06.what they say, anything is possible. What would you like to see? Ideally,
:05:06. > :05:10.from my point of view, a national pact. David Cameron arrived in
:05:10. > :05:14.Manchester last night. Around the same time as these activists from
:05:14. > :05:23.London. I broke the news to them that in our survey just 26% of Tory
:05:23. > :05:28.councillors think that the prime ministers in touch with the lives of
:05:28. > :05:32.ordinary people. The same at all Conservatives, you don't judge
:05:32. > :05:34.people by their background. It's not where they come from, it is where
:05:34. > :05:38.they are going to. It is not a where they come from, it is where
:05:38. > :05:42.problem that he is a bit on the posh side? Cull you might describe him
:05:42. > :05:49.like that, I would not use those words. Explain your T-shirt, it is a
:05:49. > :05:56.phrase that a senior Cameron person is alleged to have used about you?
:05:56. > :05:58.It is a humorous way of letting the party now that we are here to say
:05:59. > :06:03.what we think. Members are important. We are not going away any
:06:03. > :06:07.time soon. A sentiment you will hear a lot at this conference, because
:06:08. > :06:11.just 22% of councillors in our survey said that David Cameron was
:06:11. > :06:18.any good at listening to the people that work hard for his party. That
:06:18. > :06:21.was Adam. Joining me now from the Conservative Party conference in
:06:21. > :06:26.Manchester, Foreign Secretary William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday
:06:26. > :06:34.Politics. Good morning. Over one in five Tory councillors in our survey
:06:34. > :06:39.support a pact with UKIP at the next election. Why do you think that is?
:06:39. > :06:43.If it is one in five, it means a large majority did not want a pact
:06:43. > :06:47.with UKIP at the next election. They have noticed that UKIP, in local
:06:47. > :06:50.elections, has been receiving votes, some of which would otherwise have
:06:50. > :06:53.been for the Conservatives. I think we have to make sure that people
:06:53. > :06:58.understand that at a general election they are choosing between a
:06:58. > :07:01.Conservative and Labour Government, as David Cameron as Prime Minister
:07:01. > :07:07.or Ed Miliband. If people want to get a referendum on Europe, the only
:07:07. > :07:11.way to do that is to have David Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a
:07:11. > :07:14.general election is different from the local government perspective. It
:07:14. > :07:19.is pretty unusual, some might say unprecedented, for a large chunk of
:07:19. > :07:21.one of the big parties in this country to want to go into coalition
:07:21. > :07:24.one of the big parties in this with a smaller party before an
:07:24. > :07:32.election. When has that ever happened? Looking at your survey,
:07:32. > :07:36.three times as many didn't want to do that. As ever, with a survey,
:07:36. > :07:40.with statistics, you can highlight it whichever way around you want to.
:07:40. > :07:45.The point is, we are not having pacts with other parties, electoral
:07:45. > :07:48.pacts with other parties. You rule it out? That is not going to happen.
:07:48. > :07:52.What we do want is to have a pact it out? That is not going to happen.
:07:52. > :07:57.with the voters, if you like, as we have often done in the Conservative
:07:57. > :08:01.Party. We have won over the voters of other parties to support our
:08:01. > :08:05.policies and Prime Minister. That is important with those people that say
:08:05. > :08:08.they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour
:08:08. > :08:12.government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend, if
:08:12. > :08:16.they would otherwise vote Conservative and decide to vote for
:08:16. > :08:23.UKIP instead in a general election. That could help to produce a Labour
:08:23. > :08:28.government. The chairman of the 1922 committee, the elected voice of
:08:28. > :08:32.Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had
:08:32. > :08:37.once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.
:08:38. > :08:43.Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European
:08:43. > :08:52.elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,
:08:52. > :08:57.about the need the UK and the European treaties the concept of
:08:57. > :09:00.ever closer union, a concept that in Britain we have never really
:09:00. > :09:03.believed in. We would like that to be changed, with all of the
:09:03. > :09:07.consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the
:09:07. > :09:12.examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly
:09:12. > :09:16.over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general
:09:16. > :09:19.election, if you are saying, let have the exact list of anything that
:09:19. > :09:24.we are going to be able to negotiate, that is difficult because
:09:24. > :09:27.there will be a negotiation of a new deal in Europe if David Cameron as
:09:27. > :09:34.Prime Minister after the next election. To some extent, that has
:09:34. > :09:38.to be negotiated. Only 11% of your own councillors feel that people in
:09:38. > :09:44.their area think that George Osborne is in touch with ordinary people.
:09:44. > :09:50.Why is he seemed to be so aloof? It is not for me to explain why people
:09:50. > :09:55.say what they say in surveys. The important thing is what we are
:09:55. > :09:59.delivering for the country. What George Osborne is delivering his
:10:00. > :10:05.renewed economic growth. 1.4 million new jobs in the private sector, help
:10:05. > :10:09.for hard-working people, by reducing the tax for 25 million of them. The
:10:09. > :10:14.Help To Buy scheme that we are highlighting today. That is what
:10:14. > :10:19.really matters to people, actually, I think you will find. Let's talk
:10:19. > :10:25.about helping ordinary people. Ed Miliband is guilty freeze energy
:10:25. > :10:29.prices. What are you going to do about energy prices, we already
:10:29. > :10:41.asked energy companies to put people on their lowest tariffs. This has
:10:41. > :10:47.not been amended. -- implemented. Why not? This is going to happen
:10:47. > :10:55.within this government. It is going to happen within this government
:10:55. > :11:00.when the... Why hasn't it happened now? People are suffering now from
:11:00. > :11:04.rising energy prices. It has not happened because my colleagues have
:11:04. > :11:08.been implimenting it. In the case of Ed Miliband's policy, if you are
:11:08. > :11:13.asking why it has not yet happened under this Government, it didn't
:11:13. > :11:17.even survive a few our's scrutiny in opposition. In a few hours he had to
:11:17. > :11:21.concede that if there was a big change in oil prices then the policy
:11:21. > :11:29.would not work. The trouble is, it would dry up some of the investment
:11:29. > :11:33.in the energy industry. I don't think it is a credible promise. For
:11:33. > :11:40.a party that presided over council tax bills doubling in the next
:11:40. > :11:48.government, -- last government, it's not very credible. Why is George
:11:48. > :11:51.Osborne going against the European Union to protect banker bonuses?
:11:51. > :11:56.Well, we don't want to see the European treaties used in a way that
:11:56. > :12:00.they should not be used. It's not necessarily over this particular
:12:00. > :12:04.issue. It is over the power that the European Union has over our lives
:12:04. > :12:08.and over this country. Can the bankers look after themselves? We
:12:08. > :12:17.should be able to decide those things in our own country. We have
:12:17. > :12:20.never signed up to such matters in European institutions. If you allow
:12:20. > :12:23.one thing that wasn't meant to be decided to be decided, you find
:12:23. > :12:25.one thing that wasn't meant to be there are another ten or 20 things
:12:25. > :12:32.that affect many other people. We are very vigilant about what we call
:12:32. > :12:36.competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was
:12:36. > :12:39.meant to have. That is one of the reasons why people do want a
:12:39. > :12:44.referendum, do want a new deal in Europe. That is what we intend to
:12:44. > :12:51.give them. Let's look at in competence creep. A big city
:12:51. > :12:55.institution, ICAP, fined for fixing the LIBOR rates. The founder of that
:12:55. > :12:59.company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it
:12:59. > :13:04.back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own
:13:04. > :13:09.money to the Conservative Party. Which he made out of ICAP. As people
:13:09. > :13:13.have to other parties, people are free to do that and they should be
:13:13. > :13:18.free to do that. I am not aware of any plan for that to be repaid.
:13:18. > :13:22.Because you can't afford to. Let's recap this. We have seen Tory MPs
:13:22. > :13:27.parrot propaganda lines from the energy companies this week. We have
:13:27. > :13:29.the Chancellor going to court to fight for unlimited banker bonuses.
:13:29. > :13:33.We have a top Tory donor the centre fight for unlimited banker bonuses.
:13:33. > :13:36.of yet another city scandal. Ed Miliband is right when he says you
:13:37. > :13:40.lot are on the side of the vested interests so the rich and powerful,
:13:40. > :13:48.isn't he? Well, again, look at the record. I just did! 1.4 million
:13:48. > :13:54.extra jobs in the private sector, 25 million people with a tax cut, a
:13:54. > :13:57.Help To Buy scheme which is going to help so many people, particularly
:13:57. > :14:03.young people have the house that they need and deserve for the
:14:03. > :14:08.future. Council tax bills held down, welfare reform so that it pays to
:14:08. > :14:10.work. Actually, this is a government achieving things for hard-working
:14:10. > :14:21.people and that will be highlighted to this conference.
:14:21. > :14:27.While President Laugharne he's talking about peace, the Iranians
:14:27. > :14:35.are speeding up their nuclear weapons programme. -- is talking.
:14:35. > :14:38.It would be hard to say from week to week whether it is speeding up
:14:38. > :14:45.or slowing down but they are continuing with it. That is why we
:14:45. > :14:50.say the new message - the new words - from Iranian leadership are very
:14:50. > :14:54.welcome. I said that to the Foreign Minister in New York over the last
:14:54. > :14:58.few days but it is the actions that will count. At the moment, the
:14:58. > :15:03.nuclear programme continues. We have agreed to commence
:15:03. > :15:06.negotiations on that and that will be a very important test as to
:15:06. > :15:12.whether actions will match the words. When will we know it if we
:15:12. > :15:17.are being strung along? He has strung as a long in the past as a
:15:17. > :15:22.nuclear weapons negotiator. When will we know if he is not just
:15:22. > :15:27.doing that again? Over the next few weeks, it will be a very important
:15:27. > :15:32.time. He has said there should be more transparency over the Iranian
:15:32. > :15:36.nuclear programme. It is not transparent in many regards at the
:15:37. > :15:42.moment. The atomic agency is asking for information that is not being
:15:42. > :15:47.given. One test is, in the coming weeks, will they give more
:15:47. > :15:51.information? The information that the international of authority is
:15:51. > :15:55.asking for about their nuclear programme. We will be able to form
:15:55. > :16:00.a view of this in the coming weeks or months. It is important we test
:16:00. > :16:04.their new willingness to talk to us and negotiate with us. It is
:16:04. > :16:09.important to find out whether they are serious about it. You are
:16:09. > :16:13.asking, is the nuclear programme really continuing? Are they really
:16:13. > :16:17.going to be realistic about negotiations and offer something
:16:17. > :16:21.they have not offer before? Speaking of being strung along,
:16:22. > :16:31.what sanctions would President Assad face if, in six months - the
:16:31. > :16:36.Year, Syria still has a chemical weapons arsenal. In the resolution
:16:36. > :16:41.we voted through the UN Security Council on Friday night, is the
:16:41. > :16:45.commitment that the Security Council will take measures under
:16:45. > :16:52.Chapter seven of the UN Charter in the event of non-compliance. Does
:16:52. > :16:58.that allow full force? I did not catch that. Does that allow for
:16:58. > :17:02.force? It is similar to the Security Council resolution about
:17:02. > :17:10.Iraq, which most people concluded in not allow full force. It does
:17:10. > :17:16.not specify that. It talks about terms seven of the charter. That is
:17:16. > :17:20.a message of the whole UN Security Council that there will be measures
:17:20. > :17:27.- there will be consequences - if the Assad regime does not comply.
:17:27. > :17:31.Russia has a lot riding on this. It has a big commitment. I have spent
:17:31. > :17:35.a lot of time at my Russian counterpart over the last week.
:17:35. > :17:41.Russia has said, this is something you will have to do. We will work
:17:41. > :17:45.with Russia and others very closely to check there is compliance will
:17:46. > :17:51.this resolution. Given the progress that has been made, you must be
:17:51. > :18:05.very glad that the British House of Commons stopped your rash to force
:18:05. > :18:12.against Syria. -- rush. The reason has happened is because there was a
:18:12. > :18:18.credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it
:18:18. > :18:22.through Congress. They have not had the vote in Congress. There is no
:18:22. > :18:26.other explanation as to why the policy changed. It was because
:18:26. > :18:32.there was a debate about military action in the West that the policy
:18:32. > :18:37.changed on theirs. That is why it changed. We were not in a rush for
:18:37. > :18:41.military action. The boat put to the House of Commons was to have
:18:41. > :18:47.another Aotearoa after the inspectors reported. It was before
:18:47. > :18:55.we got to that point that the Russian and Syrian policy changed.
:18:55. > :19:04.We need to make sure that works in practice. Thank you. What do you
:19:04. > :19:08.make about this rushing forward with the help to buy scheme which
:19:08. > :19:14.was meant to start next year - coming forward mad to the next
:19:14. > :19:21.couple of weeks? I think it is a terrible policy. The Treasury
:19:21. > :19:24.Select Committee, Perez a fundamental problem with the
:19:24. > :19:30.Government having an interest in mortgage lending. -- there is a
:19:30. > :19:35.fundamental problem. It should have been set much lower to exclude
:19:35. > :19:40.London and the South East where houses are dramatically overvalued.
:19:40. > :19:46.Many economists think freezing energy prices is a terrible policy.
:19:46. > :19:50.These policies can be popular. If you have no chance of getting a
:19:50. > :19:55.deposit, the Government will make that possible because it will
:19:55. > :19:58.guarantee a big chunk of the deposit. Do not forget George
:19:58. > :20:03.Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do
:20:03. > :20:11.anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it
:20:11. > :20:14.forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they are
:20:14. > :20:18.doing this is they want to show this week at the conference there
:20:18. > :20:22.are real sort of understandable issues you can explain very simply
:20:22. > :20:28.that really up going to improve people's lives. The Conservatives
:20:28. > :20:34.were slightly spooked by Ed Miliband's speech last week. The
:20:34. > :20:44.language used by David Cameron this morning was that the tax policy was
:20:44. > :20:48.nuts. Much more cautious and -- language about the energy price
:20:48. > :20:54.freeze. They are nervous that Ed Miliband may be touching a nerve on
:20:54. > :21:02.that one. What we will get this week, I suggest, his Tory populism
:21:02. > :21:04.to counter Miliband populism. I think we will see that and it will
:21:04. > :21:10.be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will
:21:10. > :21:17.about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the
:21:17. > :21:22.political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities
:21:22. > :21:25.of energy prices or living standards, things that are some way
:21:26. > :21:31.below that picture, I do not think they can win a bidding war with the
:21:31. > :21:36.Labour Party. It is about borrowing against a party that stands for the
:21:36. > :21:39.rectitude at against a party that stands for the
:21:39. > :21:41.It is about getting the conversation back to where
:21:41. > :21:46.It is about getting the before the Labour conference, which
:21:46. > :21:54.is unemployment, GDP growth and the warming economic picture. That does
:21:54. > :21:57.not pay energy bills. Does not sound that the Tories have anything
:21:57. > :22:02.not pay energy bills. Does not to counter the price freeze. -- it
:22:02. > :22:07.does not sound. They have had a week to think about a great attack
:22:07. > :22:11.line and they do not add anything. They have just said, the lights
:22:11. > :22:27.will go out. Now they're saying, it will not
:22:27. > :22:32.the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike in
:22:32. > :22:36.energy prices, he would not be able to keep his freeze in those
:22:36. > :22:45.circumstances. it is about credibility. Being seen
:22:45. > :22:52.as serious and grown-up is worth it is about credibility. Being seen
:22:52. > :22:55.more than any burst of popularity. My worry about the announcement is
:22:55. > :23:01.more than any burst of popularity. with the election campaign, it
:23:01. > :23:09.begins to lose credibility, begins to seem a banana republic. It looks
:23:09. > :23:13.a lot less wise than it did last week. I disagree. Every time energy
:23:13. > :23:18.bills go up and they will continue to go up, it will be a reminder of
:23:18. > :23:23.how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy
:23:23. > :23:28.prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that
:23:28. > :23:32.was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may
:23:33. > :23:39.be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving up
:23:39. > :23:45.the cost of fuel is China and India. Ed Miliband, great man that he is,
:23:45. > :23:52.I am not sure he can take on the people Sammir on that one. How dare
:23:52. > :23:54.you! -- the People's Army. Ed Miliband came out fighting at
:23:54. > :23:57.Labour's Conference in Brighton last week. Dogged by criticism over
:23:57. > :24:00.the summer of his leadership style and lack of policies, Mr Miliband
:24:00. > :24:02.tried to demonstrate his strength of character with a series of bold
:24:02. > :24:08.announcements, and attempted to position himself on the side of
:24:08. > :24:13.ordinary Brits. The Labour leader told party members he would stand
:24:13. > :24:15.up to the strong and take on the vested interests that hold back our
:24:15. > :24:19.up to the strong and take on the economy. In a speech in which he
:24:19. > :24:21.jokingly referred to himself as an action hero, Mr Miliband promised
:24:21. > :24:26.to switch the forthcoming business action hero, Mr Miliband promised
:24:26. > :24:30.tax cut from large firms to smaller businesses. He said he would force
:24:30. > :24:35.big firms to train at an apprentice every time they bring in a worker
:24:35. > :24:40.from outside the EU. He hinted that increasing the minimum wage would
:24:40. > :24:47.be increased. He bowed to take on developers with a use it or lose it
:24:47. > :24:52.threat to landowners and pledged to build 200,000 homes each year by
:24:52. > :24:56.2020. He promised to freeze energy prices and reset the energy market.
:24:56. > :25:03.The next Labour government will freeze gas and electricity prices
:25:03. > :25:08.until the start of 2017. That provoked a rash of headlines -
:25:08. > :25:13.hailing the return of red Ed macro. It has also given him a spike in
:25:13. > :25:16.the polls. And Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline Flint
:25:16. > :25:25.joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:25:25. > :25:33.Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In
:25:33. > :25:40.what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left
:25:40. > :25:45.behind in 2010? We have six companies that dominate the energy
:25:45. > :25:52.sector. It is the same. They generate energy, and sell it on to
:25:52. > :25:55.us. What we recognise and Ed Miliband recognised when he was
:25:55. > :25:57.Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company
:25:57. > :26:00.Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,
:26:00. > :26:04.all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms of a
:26:04. > :26:08.warm front programme and everything else has not dealt with the
:26:08. > :26:14.fundamental problem that the Horsell market is too secretive and
:26:14. > :26:18.it is too much about such supply. - - the wholesale market. We have
:26:18. > :26:25.been raising with the Government in a co-operative way the argument for
:26:25. > :26:31.resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which
:26:31. > :26:37.prices have gone up. Labour put wholesale and retail together. It
:26:37. > :26:40.was the start this dates back to Margaret Thatcher and the
:26:40. > :26:45.privatisation. We took some reforms to reset the market. We have
:26:45. > :26:50.realised it was not working and it was broken and we need to reset it.
:26:50. > :26:54.Ed Miliband will be the first to say we did not do enough from 2005
:26:54. > :26:59.onwards. Let's have a look at what happened to energy prices under the
:26:59. > :27:08.Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up
:27:08. > :27:13.by 48%. The market was broken and the Government as well. From 2005,
:27:13. > :27:21.we saw prices biking as wholesale prices went up. The tick action on
:27:21. > :27:28.the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we
:27:28. > :27:32.took action on per warm front programme. Trying to do things
:27:32. > :27:38.around social obligations needs to be looked at. Gas and electricity
:27:38. > :27:42.bills are high partially as a consequence of the market you
:27:42. > :27:48.presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look
:27:48. > :27:55.at the breakdown of dual fuel - gas and electricity bill. -- let's have
:27:55. > :28:01.a look. The supply costs of getting it to us and so on. The policies
:28:01. > :28:05.that were introduced by your government - Green levies - are
:28:05. > :28:14.adding almost 10% to has told energy bills. £112 on average bill
:28:14. > :28:24.of 1188. You have put the bill up. Eight -- social and green
:28:24. > :28:29.obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.
:28:29. > :28:34.Overwhelmingly, looking at your graph and the figures I have,
:28:34. > :28:41.wholesale costs are worth more than half. What we have seen, based on
:28:41. > :28:48.figures we now have, in Eni macro, a wholesale costs fell by 39% and
:28:48. > :28:54.that was not reflected in our bills. Do you have plans to do anything
:28:54. > :29:00.about the £112? If you took that off, you could cut bills by 10%
:29:00. > :29:04.tomorrow. Or if you were in power. It is important that restimulate
:29:04. > :29:11.the opportunity to grow clean energy. It -- we stimulate. If we
:29:11. > :29:15.do not have clean energy, we will be beholden for ever-more to fossil
:29:15. > :29:20.do not have clean energy, we will fuels that are depleting. It will
:29:20. > :29:24.create jobs and bring in investment will start in the last few years,
:29:24. > :29:30.we have seen investment in renewable energy half. -- in
:29:30. > :29:34.investment. If I could go back to competition in the markets,
:29:34. > :29:39.whatever advance there are, looking at whether the money raised through
:29:39. > :29:43.energy companies to deliver energy efficiency, is that doing as well
:29:43. > :29:48.as it might? Could it be better delivered by another agency? They
:29:48. > :29:53.are fair questions. We need to get ahead of that and look at the
:29:53. > :29:56.market. Can we make the market will competitive make sure when there is
:29:56. > :30:02.downward pressure on wholesale prices, that is reflected on our
:30:02. > :30:04.bills? That is the bigger picture argument. Also the freeze to help
:30:04. > :30:17.people during that period. As you complain about the energy
:30:17. > :30:20.prices, it was as a result of your actions. Ed Miliband introduced the
:30:20. > :30:26.climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for
:30:27. > :30:30.decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much
:30:30. > :30:35.as possible, but it is true there is not a low-cost energy future out
:30:35. > :30:38.there. It is important that we address the pressures on bills, but
:30:38. > :30:41.also recognise that if we are going to build a better future where we
:30:41. > :30:44.can have more home-grown British energy and, in the long-term,
:30:44. > :30:48.cheaper, we need to invest in renewables. Truth is it is about the
:30:48. > :30:57.market. I acknowledge I acknowledge eyes what you say about the 112. I
:30:57. > :31:03.am not going to disagree. But wholesale prices have fallen. They
:31:03. > :31:09.fell in 2009, we got a reduction in bills of 5%. Which are saying that
:31:09. > :31:14.the big companies are overcharging customers. We are seeing profits
:31:14. > :31:20.going up, but we haven't seen the amount of investment suggested by
:31:20. > :31:23.those profits coming through. But that £125 is going to get worse,
:31:23. > :31:28.because your leader said in his speech in Brighton that Labour will
:31:28. > :31:32.have a world leading commitment in Government to take out all carbon
:31:32. > :31:37.from energy generation by 2030. That is not that far away. By 2030, no
:31:37. > :31:42.more coal generation, no more gas generation, only much more expensive
:31:42. > :31:47.nuclear and much more expensive renewables. It cannot be done
:31:47. > :31:52.without bills going up even further? Hang on a second. The 2030 target to
:31:52. > :31:56.remove carbon from the electricity supply, we have said we should set a
:31:56. > :32:00.target now because, actually, it gives us more time to plan ahead and
:32:00. > :32:03.also allows investment to come in. There is plenty of people with cash
:32:03. > :32:07.in their pockets not want to invest what they are stalling because of
:32:07. > :32:12.the Government's hesitancy over this. I just want a clarification
:32:12. > :32:16.here. My understanding is that your commitment is to get rid of all
:32:16. > :32:21.carbon from power generation by 2030? From the letters city supply.
:32:21. > :32:26.Only electricity. We will still have gas? We have always said we will
:32:26. > :32:36.need gas for decades to come. So we are clear for that. But you will be
:32:36. > :32:40.increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding
:32:40. > :32:47.twice the market price to build plans in this country. Renewables
:32:47. > :32:51.are two or three times the market price. Bills are going up under your
:32:51. > :32:55.policies, and the coalition policies? On nuclear, we took a
:32:56. > :33:00.decision under the Labour Government that we needed to revitalise the
:33:00. > :33:05.sector, to hit targets on clean that we needed to revitalise the
:33:05. > :33:08.energy and make sure it can do the heavy lifting. The Government at the
:33:08. > :33:11.present time are engaged in heavy lifting. The Government at the
:33:11. > :33:14.discussions with EDF about what the strike price should be. It's
:33:14. > :33:18.important, because I don't know what it's going to be, it is important
:33:18. > :33:23.that stands up to scrutiny in terms of value for money. At the same
:33:23. > :33:30.time, I go back to market reforms. We will not just have a target for
:33:30. > :33:35.difference, the jargon for nuclear, we will have it for renewables as
:33:35. > :33:37.well. That is even more important, that we have a transparent market so
:33:37. > :33:43.that we can have a robust target price to be judged against. Michael
:33:43. > :33:47.Gove recognised in question time that the market was not working. The
:33:47. > :33:55.Telegraph said in its editorial, they used the term cosy cartel. We
:33:55. > :33:58.have former advisers to David Cameron saying something needs to be
:33:58. > :34:04.done. I'm surprised David Cameron doesn't acknowledge that. You are
:34:04. > :34:08.going to freeze prices for 20 months and will come up with a new
:34:08. > :34:10.regulator to replace Ofgem. Will that regulator have the power to
:34:10. > :34:17.regulator to replace Ofgem. Will control prices? The new energy
:34:17. > :34:19.watchdog will have a strategy responsibility to monitor the
:34:19. > :34:21.wholesale costs and prices, which it currently doesn't have at the
:34:21. > :34:26.moment. As a result of that it will currently doesn't have at the
:34:26. > :34:28.have the power that, if the wholesale prices fall, it can force
:34:28. > :34:35.the energy companies, if they don't, wholesale prices fall, it can force
:34:35. > :34:38.to pass on reductions in bills to consumers. It will not have what we
:34:38. > :34:43.see in some parts of the European Union, 15 of them, that have a
:34:43. > :34:47.variety of price controls that set things at below inflation and what
:34:47. > :34:54.have you. France, Spain, Italy. It will not do that. Why? Because we
:34:54. > :34:56.are looking at a temporary price freeze to reflect a reduction in
:34:56. > :35:00.are looking at a temporary price wholesale prices, to give the
:35:00. > :35:03.British public respite from ever climbing bills while they get
:35:03. > :35:07.reforms into the market. At the end of this, what we want is a more
:35:07. > :35:12.competitive market that can be trusted, that is more transparent.
:35:12. > :35:16.We do believe it is right that, actually, we need a regulator that
:35:16. > :35:19.has much more of a role in making sure the market is managed
:35:19. > :35:29.effectively. Are you accusing energy companies of profiteering? EU I am
:35:29. > :35:32.accusing them of overcharging and not passing on wholesale reduction
:35:32. > :35:44.costs to the customer in a fair way. Of making Carter -- cartel profits?
:35:44. > :35:49.I do believe that the level of profits they have passed on to their
:35:49. > :35:52.shareholders is high, compared to the reductions they could have
:35:52. > :35:59.provided to consumers. Let's look at the evidence for that. Here are the
:35:59. > :36:03.British owned companies, SSE and Centrica. In the last fiscal year
:36:03. > :36:10.they made combined earnings of £4 billion. But they invested £3
:36:10. > :36:15.billion. The remaining money went to debt servicing and paying dividends,
:36:15. > :36:18.which go into pension funds. Where in these figures is the
:36:18. > :36:28.profiteering? My figures that I got through their reporting to Ofgem and
:36:28. > :36:33.work done by other organisations, Witch and others, it shows that in
:36:33. > :36:38.Centrica's case they have something like 8% return in profit margins on
:36:38. > :36:40.the retail side. That goes up to 24% on the generation side. They have
:36:40. > :36:46.passed on, in terms of profits, something I70 4% through evidence to
:36:46. > :36:54.shareholders. But these figures don't show that. They have invested
:36:54. > :36:59.£3 billion. I am reporting what has been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has
:36:59. > :37:03.not accused them of property in. They may well be, but we don't have
:37:03. > :37:06.the evidence. I would accuse Ofgem of not doing the job they should be
:37:06. > :37:12.doing, and they have held back from tackling the issue. It is
:37:12. > :37:16.acknowledged, across the sector, across the big six, something like
:37:16. > :37:21.50% of profits has gone over to dividends to shareholders. In
:37:21. > :37:24.Centrica's case it is 74%. On the Centrica example, even though they
:37:24. > :37:28.have had the highest profit margins, they have invested the least. It is
:37:28. > :37:34.fair to question. We are running out they have invested the least. It is
:37:34. > :37:39.of time. None of us really know what the true price of energy is that is
:37:39. > :37:42.Labour's policy to reform his crucial. That is because he merged
:37:42. > :37:46.the market and we can't tell the difference. If they continue putting
:37:46. > :37:51.prices up, even after your price freeze, if they don't invest in a
:37:51. > :37:54.way that they do, do you rule out wholesale nationalisation?
:37:54. > :37:59.Absolutely. I want a more competitive market and that is why
:37:59. > :38:02.we are resetting it. You are watching Sunday Politics. Coming up
:38:02. > :38:03.in just over 20 minutes I will be looking at the week ahead with our
:38:04. > :38:21.political panel and Hello, and welcome to the programme.
:38:21. > :38:26.Some more instalment is in crisis, others passed it off as pure drama.
:38:26. > :38:30.The Prime Minister warned of difficulties but insisted there was
:38:30. > :38:33.no power-sharing crisis. We will hear life from the Secretary of
:38:33. > :38:37.State, who is at the Tory party conference in Manchester.
:38:37. > :38:41.Could people on this side of the border be offered a chance to vote
:38:41. > :38:41.Could people on this side of the in Irish presidential elections? The
:38:41. > :38:45.body set up to recommend changes to in Irish presidential elections? The
:38:45. > :38:50.the Republic's condition votes on the issue.
:38:50. > :38:54.I am joined by the Belfast Telegraph's political editor, Liam
:38:54. > :39:03.Clarke, and the editor of the Irish News, Noel Doran.
:39:03. > :39:06.As Tories gather in Manchester for their annual conference this
:39:06. > :39:11.weekend, the party has rejected Labour claims that the Secretary of
:39:11. > :39:12.State Theresa Villiers is taking a semi detached approach to tackling
:39:12. > :39:18.State Theresa Villiers is taking a serious issues here. On Friday, Eva
:39:18. > :39:24.Taman sidestepped any suggestion he might have to intervene in the Haas
:39:24. > :39:28.talks. -- David Cameron sidestepped. You spoke to the Prime Minister in
:39:28. > :39:33.Downing Street at the end of last week. He says there is no crisis,
:39:33. > :39:36.but what is the mood among delegates in Manchester today? A despair to
:39:36. > :39:40.say Northern Ireland is not the talking point. People are talking
:39:40. > :39:47.about the economy and the announcement relating to housing,
:39:47. > :39:55.and welfare reform. It is not as high up on the agenda as it used to
:39:55. > :39:59.be. David Cameron said he does not think Stormont is in crisis. He said
:39:59. > :40:05.he is not going to intervene every five minutes. To find out if that
:40:05. > :40:09.analysis is shared by the Secretary of State, I am joined by Theresa
:40:09. > :40:13.Villiers. The Prime Minister says there is not a crisis at Stormont,
:40:13. > :40:20.ie in danger of underplaying it? Clearly, we have a mandatory five
:40:20. > :40:25.party coalition. There will be times when they do not agree with each
:40:25. > :40:30.other. That is a fact of life in any coalition. We know that in the
:40:30. > :40:36.Conservatives. I have had a very constructive meeting. There is
:40:36. > :40:40.important work going on in relation to the economic package. It is the
:40:40. > :40:45.case that there is work going on. There is always a need for closer
:40:45. > :40:51.cooperation and more progress and I will continue to press the case with
:40:51. > :40:56.all parties. The Labour Party say you should be more involved. Do you
:40:56. > :41:00.accept there is a danger you could be seen as semidetached? I do not
:41:00. > :41:05.accept that criticism. The Prime Minister and I have been very
:41:05. > :41:10.involved in the economic package, the G8, and the investment
:41:10. > :41:12.conference coming up. We believe passionately in rebalancing the
:41:12. > :41:17.economy in Northern Ireland and being on the side of hard-working
:41:17. > :41:22.people. That is why we have reduced income tax for many of them, why we
:41:22. > :41:26.have frozen fuel duty, and why are devastated and plan is aimed at
:41:26. > :41:28.boosting the Northern Ireland economy and helping people with
:41:28. > :41:35.household bills by keeping mortgages low. I have talked to every
:41:35. > :41:38.political party about the Haas process. That is why we are
:41:38. > :41:41.encouraging the First and Deputy First Minister to get this started
:41:41. > :41:46.in the first place and take hold of First Minister to get this started
:41:46. > :41:53.the important issues. What happens if you do not meet the deadline for
:41:53. > :41:57.the talks at Christmas? We should have faith in the process as it
:41:57. > :42:02.starts. We should not be looking at failure before it has even kicked
:42:02. > :42:06.off. I think Richard Haass is an impressive individual and the
:42:06. > :42:10.reality is, Northern Ireland's political leadership have
:42:10. > :42:13.demonstrated the ability to resolve difficult problems and have
:42:13. > :42:17.demonstrated an ability to make progress and they have transformed
:42:17. > :42:22.life in Northern Ireland. I believe they are capable of resolving these
:42:22. > :42:31.questions. On the three areas, flags, parading on the past, which
:42:31. > :42:40.of those steel think you could get agreement on most quickly? -- which
:42:40. > :42:43.of those do you think. Flags and parading are easier to build
:42:43. > :42:51.consensus on than the past. It is well worth pushing forward fresh
:42:51. > :42:53.thinking on all three issues. This week at the conference you are
:42:53. > :42:59.talking about doing things for hard-working people. What of those
:42:59. > :43:05.measures will apply to Northern Ireland and will there be special
:43:05. > :43:13.measures? A number of the measures are crucial - fixing public finances
:43:13. > :43:16.is the only way to rebalance the economy and boost the private sector
:43:16. > :43:22.in Northern Ireland. We are also helping with the cost of living,
:43:22. > :43:25.which is a big issue for many in Northern Ireland. That is why we
:43:25. > :43:34.have reduced income tax and fuel duty. We are also focusing on
:43:34. > :43:38.drawing in investment into Northern Ireland. That is why the Prime
:43:38. > :43:40.Minister will be back in Northern Ireland in a few days for a global
:43:40. > :43:42.Minister will be back in Northern investment conference, which is
:43:42. > :43:46.Minister will be back in Northern making the most of the fantastically
:43:46. > :43:48.successful G8 which was in Northern Ireland. What happens if Stormont
:43:48. > :43:53.successful G8 which was in Northern does not meet its welfare reform
:43:53. > :43:58.deadline? If Stormont decides they are not going to implement welfare
:43:58. > :44:03.reform, that does leave them with a bill rising to around 60 million a
:44:03. > :44:07.year. It is a very big decision to break with parity, so I hope they
:44:07. > :44:14.will recognise that we have worked hard to give them the flexibility
:44:14. > :44:16.that Nelson McCausland asked for. We understand the concerns about
:44:16. > :44:19.welfare reform and we are convinced reforms are the right way forward
:44:19. > :44:22.and we hope the Executive feel the same.
:44:22. > :44:31.Back to Belfast. Let's hear the same.
:44:31. > :44:34.thoughts of my studio guests, the Irish News editor Noel Doran and
:44:34. > :44:40.Liam Clarke, the political editor of the Belfast Telegraph. Noel Doran,
:44:40. > :44:43.no surprise that the Secretary of State would say she has every
:44:43. > :44:48.confidence that Northern Ireland's politicians are capable of coming to
:44:48. > :44:52.a resolution of the issues in Richard Haass's talks. Do you think
:44:52. > :44:55.she feels she has to say that order she believe it? We have not seen
:44:55. > :45:08.much of her in recent times. I she believe it? We have not seen
:45:08. > :45:10.suppose she would say that. We are in difficulties. There are tensions
:45:10. > :45:17.and relationships have been declining. Not so much of the last
:45:17. > :45:24.week or two, but last August and the latter confronting the Parades
:45:24. > :45:30.Commission which was not signed by Peter Robinson. A second draft
:45:30. > :45:36.emerged and that change the climate completely. You could argue that the
:45:36. > :45:42.Secretary of State is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one
:45:42. > :45:46.hand, she cannot interfere in the Richard Haass talks and on the other
:45:46. > :45:53.hand she is accused of being semidetached? I think this is
:45:53. > :45:57.merited. Both are First and Deputy First Minister have not been seen
:45:57. > :46:01.together much and for her to grab the wheel while there is a moment of
:46:01. > :46:05.difficulty would undermine the institutions and the chance of
:46:05. > :46:08.getting a solution. She has to hold back. If things get really bad,
:46:08. > :46:13.people expect the Irish and British back. If things get really bad,
:46:13. > :46:18.government to intervene and you have got to keep the pressure on local
:46:18. > :46:22.players to do more. Interesting turn of phrase on flags and parades. She
:46:22. > :46:33.said they are two areas more susceptible to building consensus
:46:33. > :46:37.than the past. It is interesting. These are the issues that have
:46:37. > :46:41.tended to drag us down not over just the last year but many years.
:46:41. > :46:48.Obviously it is possible to come up with solutions but it has proved
:46:48. > :46:55.impossible in recent times. The thing is getting worse. It will take
:46:55. > :47:02.a fair bit of negotiating to get out of the tangle of parades and flags.
:47:02. > :47:05.Are we just aiming for a resolution of two of the three key areas, is
:47:05. > :47:14.that where we have lowered our sites? I think it is. There was a
:47:14. > :47:18.hope that Richard Haass would suggest a consultation on the past.
:47:18. > :47:34.There is optimism on parading, because it was agreed between people
:47:34. > :47:39.in 2010. We cannot have the Orange Order are saying that is a start for
:47:39. > :47:44.negotiations. If we can get that sort, because the drugs is dying
:47:44. > :47:53.every year. Having had a crisis in the past week? The crisis reference
:47:53. > :48:01.came from Gerry Kelly, who tends to find himself on the front line in
:48:01. > :48:06.circumstances you would not necessarily find Martin McGuinness.
:48:06. > :48:09.If we saw Martin McGuinness saying things like that we might be
:48:09. > :48:12.entitled to be more worried. There is no doubt that the relationship
:48:12. > :48:22.between Sinn Fein and the DUP has to climb. You think that -- do you
:48:22. > :48:32.think that Sinn Fein need to reflect on Castlederg? Yes. I do not think
:48:32. > :48:38.it is a crisis and I do not think either party needs to pull out of
:48:38. > :48:43.government, but there is no doubt it is harder for them to get business
:48:43. > :48:50.done and there is the potential for more obstruction later on. Moth
:48:50. > :48:56.emulator. -- more from you later. Now, 60
:48:57. > :49:00.Seconds. The week got off to a fiery start
:49:00. > :49:07.with a wry between the First Minister and Jim Allister. The
:49:07. > :49:11.member as the executor of a will is selling land to republicans in
:49:11. > :49:18.County Fermanagh to benefit his own family. That is fair game as a
:49:18. > :49:23.politician but my wife is not in politics. John O'Dowd says Sinn Fein
:49:23. > :49:30.politician but my wife is not in may reconsider republican
:49:30. > :49:37.commemorations. Lord Mara's human trafficking bill took a step closer
:49:37. > :49:41.to becoming law. -- Lord Morrow. We can help some of the most
:49:41. > :49:47.vulnerable men, women and children, who come to our province.
:49:47. > :49:50.The Prime Minister says power-sharing is working. They work
:49:50. > :49:53.hard at their relationship and they are doing the right thing by
:49:53. > :49:59.governing together. I would not call it that, but there are is more to
:49:59. > :50:06.come. -- but there is.
:50:06. > :50:08.People on this side of the border could soon be offered the chance to
:50:08. > :50:12.People on this side of the border vote in Ireland's presidential
:50:12. > :50:16.elections. It is part of a possible reform of the law in the public
:50:16. > :50:20.which is primarily aimed at allowing emigrants to vote for the head of
:50:20. > :50:25.the state, but would also allow people in the north to cast a
:50:25. > :50:36.ballot. With me, Alastair Ross and Barry McElduff. Why is this only an
:50:36. > :50:40.issue? It is not suddenly an issue. Since 2011 there has been an
:50:40. > :50:46.independent campaign, one vote, one voice. Even predating that, it is an
:50:46. > :50:52.issue for nationalists in the North. They want more meaningful expression
:50:52. > :50:56.of our constitutional right to our Irishness. Why is it an issue now?
:50:56. > :51:01.of our constitutional right to our It is in the Good Friday Agreement
:51:01. > :51:04.ad in the Constitution that we have a birth rate entitlement to an Irish
:51:04. > :51:12.national identity. It is in the Good Friday Agreement. Which was 1998.
:51:12. > :51:15.There has been a quiet campaign, and it came to light more following on
:51:15. > :51:32.from the presidency of Mary McAleese. It is a huge irony that I
:51:32. > :51:36.might resort to GAA talk now. Not of the footballers in 2003 had a vote
:51:36. > :51:46.at Croke Park, and Mary McAleese did not have a vote. We want meaningful
:51:46. > :51:50.expression. Is it also partly to do with the fact that Martin McGuinness
:51:50. > :51:56.expression. Is it also partly to do might have won in 2011 if he had had
:51:56. > :52:02.northern votes? There is northern interest but it is not confined to
:52:02. > :52:05.the nationalist and republican community. During Mary McAleese's
:52:05. > :52:12.presidency, I was a regular visitor to the presidential house. People
:52:12. > :52:19.from all sides wanted to be part of those delegations. But would you
:52:19. > :52:23.want people to vote in the South's presidential elections? The Irish
:52:23. > :52:29.president is the president of the Republic of Ireland has no
:52:29. > :52:38.jurisdiction over Northern Ireland. Distinction has been made and the
:52:38. > :52:43.office of the president has been a force for good, and I would not want
:52:43. > :52:45.there to be a backward step. You would not want to give the
:52:45. > :52:50.impression that the President has jurisdiction over Northern Ireland.
:52:50. > :52:58.But surely people who want to vote would have the right to do so? It
:52:58. > :53:02.would give the didymus the to the idea of having control over all of
:53:02. > :53:07.Ireland. -- it would give legitimacy. There are citizens in
:53:07. > :53:09.Northern Ireland who do not pay taxes in the Republic, have no stake
:53:09. > :53:12.in the outcome of the elections, who taxes in the Republic, have no stake
:53:12. > :53:18.do not live there, potentially having a say in the outcome of the
:53:18. > :53:25.election. But that happens all over the world, where expats are allowed
:53:25. > :53:30.to vote in presidential elections. If you get their way, somebody
:53:30. > :53:32.living in London or America with an Irish passport could vote but
:53:32. > :53:36.someone in Belfast could not. That Irish passport could vote but
:53:36. > :53:39.is not true, there is not an absolute right. If you live in
:53:39. > :53:45.America or Australia or somewhere for 15 years, you would not be able
:53:45. > :53:51.to vote in a UK election. You could have somebody living in Australia or
:53:51. > :54:01.America for the last 30 years who have no stake in what is happening
:54:01. > :54:04.here. The fact that they do not pay taxes would suggest that to me and I
:54:04. > :54:11.think people in the Republic would feel at. He is being perfectly
:54:11. > :54:18.reasonable when he says it is a step too far. It is not too far, it is
:54:18. > :54:26.hugely symbolic. It is for Alastair Ross! I would suggest there is a
:54:26. > :54:32.strong interest in the Protestant community, and certainly in the
:54:32. > :54:36.nationalist community, about wanting to access voting rights in respect
:54:36. > :54:42.of a presidential election. You think unionists and the North want
:54:42. > :54:47.to vote in -- in the North want to vote in the Irish presidential
:54:47. > :54:57.election? Where is your evidence? Mary McAleese opened up the doors,
:54:57. > :55:04.even on the 12th of July, two orange groups who might want to avail of
:55:04. > :55:11.the premises. -- to Orange Order groups. There is a significant
:55:11. > :55:21.interest in my part of world. I brought down a group of 49 mothers
:55:21. > :55:23.of autistic children. It is good to give meaningful expression to the
:55:23. > :55:29.Good Friday Agreement. You think give meaningful expression to the
:55:29. > :55:33.there are unionists in the North who want to vote in the Irish
:55:33. > :55:37.presidential election, who are they? I have attended meetings of the one
:55:37. > :55:42.vote, one voice campaign, which is non-party aligned, and there were
:55:42. > :55:46.members of the Protestant unionist community there. Often people are
:55:46. > :55:56.ahead of their politicians. Well, there you are. I have never met any
:55:56. > :56:04.of them. Barry McElduff has a better ear to the ground with grassroots
:56:04. > :56:10.unionism than you have. Well, my door is open to anyone who is
:56:10. > :56:13.interested in this. The surveys door is open to anyone who is
:56:13. > :56:18.lately would indicate that people are content with the constitutional
:56:18. > :56:23.position and do not take that much interest in politics down south.
:56:23. > :56:26.Under the Good Friday Agreement you are entitled to dual citizenship,
:56:26. > :56:29.and if you live in the north you are entitled to have a say in the Irish
:56:29. > :56:35.nation, if you wish to express it. entitled to have a say in the Irish
:56:35. > :56:38.That is fair enough about me well be what happens. This debate would
:56:38. > :56:43.indicate that we do not have a right. It comes back to this point,
:56:43. > :56:48.do individuals living in Northern Ireland who do not contribute to the
:56:48. > :56:51.Republic of Ireland economy with taxation, who do not have to live
:56:52. > :56:55.with the consequences of the vote, should they have to live with the
:56:55. > :57:03.outcome of a vote that is not affect them? That is a key issue which is
:57:03. > :57:06.very important to ordinary citizens. I think this position is regressive.
:57:07. > :57:14.You said that other states and countries have this approach. In the
:57:14. > :57:18.French presidential election last year, almost 1 million people beyond
:57:18. > :57:26.the French state voted in apprentice presidential election. There are
:57:26. > :57:30.certain people who see this as a bit of a Trojan horse, this is the thin
:57:30. > :57:38.end of the wedge. You have got to be sensitive to that. It is about
:57:38. > :57:46.rights, and rights threaten no one. If Alistair did not want to avail of
:57:46. > :57:49.that it is his choice. But it could change people's notion of the status
:57:49. > :57:53.of Northern Ireland and its relationship to the Republic. Jana
:57:53. > :57:56.Mac President Michael D Higgins said he was a president for all of the
:57:56. > :58:05.Irish people, North and South, and for the wider diaspora. I do not
:58:05. > :58:09.think he is threatening. He is not the president for all of the people
:58:09. > :58:15.of Northern Ireland. His jurisdiction has been over the Irish
:58:15. > :58:19.Republic. I think relationships have been good and I would not want to
:58:19. > :58:26.jeopardise that. The Alliance Party took part in one vote, one voice.
:58:26. > :58:30.The Alliance Party might be divided. It will be interesting to hear what
:58:30. > :58:34.people say and to see what the result of the vote is when it
:58:34. > :58:37.happens later on today. A final word from our commentators.
:58:37. > :58:41.Do you think it is a burning issue, A final word from our commentators.
:58:41. > :58:45.are there are a lot of people in Northern Ireland who would like to
:58:45. > :58:48.avail of the opportunity to vote in an Irish presidential election? It
:58:48. > :58:54.is difficult enough to get them to vote in Northern Ireland! If they
:58:54. > :59:01.voted it would be on local issues. Research says 67% of Catholics would
:59:01. > :59:05.vote Sinn Fein. If Protestants are unionists vote against Sinn Fein,
:59:05. > :59:08.there is not an engagement with Southern political issues. There
:59:08. > :59:16.could well be resentment in the south of northerners had the vote
:59:16. > :59:21.and a factor that. I think there is a petition list attitude with Barry
:59:21. > :59:26.McElduff. There are always problems but it would be a fascinating
:59:26. > :59:30.prospect. I watched Michael D Higgins yesterday, he is a
:59:30. > :59:37.tremendously popular and revered figure. In terms of the impact on
:59:37. > :59:41.the southern electorate, Martin McGuinness was half a million votes
:59:41. > :59:48.behind Michael D Higgins. If the Sinn Fein electoral machine had
:59:48. > :59:52.delivered, Martin McGuinness would still have been third. I think some
:59:52. > :59:59.northern nationalists would not have voted for Michael D Higgins anyway.
:59:59. > :00:04.I think it is a fascinating prospect and has happened in other countries
:00:04. > :00:13.and the debate is eight report -- an important one. One last issue,
:00:13. > :00:18.Daniel Libeskind, responsible for the Maze-Long Kesh project, said he
:00:18. > :00:26.believes this by Peter Robinson's intervention that the project will
:00:26. > :00:31.happen. That is an interesting contribution at this time? It was a
:00:31. > :00:34.loss of nerve on the part of the DUP. Peter Robinson said it would
:00:34. > :00:38.not be a shrine to terrorism but he said he was finding that unionist
:00:38. > :00:48.victims group 's did not accept his argument. -- unionist victims'
:00:48. > :00:54.groups. Why would the son of a Holocaust victim want to build a
:00:54. > :01:00.shrine to terrorism? Yes, that needs to be taken seriously. I am not sure
:01:00. > :01:04.that everyone is enthusiastic about the project, but I think Sinn Fein
:01:04. > :01:05.believed they had a deal with Peter Robinson and when
:01:05. > :01:16.and Emily Thornberry. Back to you, Andrew.
:01:16. > :01:21.So, we'll David Cameron's marriage tax break win over voters? How will
:01:21. > :01:26.So, we'll David Cameron's marriage the Tories react to Ed Miliband's
:01:26. > :01:39.conference initiatives? And what is UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to
:01:39. > :01:42.with the Tories in Manchester? Joining us now is UKIP's Diane
:01:42. > :01:49.James. She came second in the easterly by-election.
:01:49. > :01:56.On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,
:01:56. > :02:02.let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not
:02:02. > :02:05.looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice
:02:05. > :02:09.at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We are
:02:09. > :02:12.on the right track, we are seeing more jobs, new businesses, we are
:02:12. > :02:18.beginning to get things moving again. Do you want to stick with us,
:02:18. > :02:19.delivering an economy for hard-working people, or do you want
:02:19. > :02:25.to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want
:02:25. > :02:29.and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime
:02:29. > :02:33.Minister on the Sunday Politics. Is there any appetite on the UKIP side
:02:33. > :02:39.for a pact? In my experience, discussions around the country, I
:02:39. > :02:50.would say no. It's being discussed, then? EU no. It has not come up. It
:02:50. > :02:54.is the media that is pushing this. It has reflected what has happened
:02:54. > :02:59.with the parties since the conference season began. Labour are
:02:59. > :03:03.trying to reclaim what I would call the traditionalist socialist
:03:03. > :03:06.position. I'm not sure what the Liberal Democrats or two, but the
:03:06. > :03:09.Conservatives are trying to react to the threat that UKIP represents.
:03:09. > :03:15.There is this element, the accusation they are lurching more to
:03:15. > :03:17.the right, which the media wants to interpret as them possibly being
:03:17. > :03:24.able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to
:03:24. > :03:27.what shape it would take? Not whatsoever. It is not on the radar.
:03:27. > :03:32.I have read comments, including individual such as Douglas
:03:32. > :03:39.Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's
:03:39. > :03:43.call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt
:03:43. > :03:45.that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is
:03:45. > :03:52.not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an
:03:52. > :03:56.electoral pact, not a coalition. I have responded to that by saying,
:03:57. > :03:59.the moment, there are no ongoing discussions. There is certainly
:03:59. > :04:03.nothing that has been discussed at a constituency level or coming out of
:04:04. > :04:06.the national executive. You don't believe any constituencies are
:04:06. > :04:14.discussing this with Tory Eurosceptics? I am not privy to what
:04:14. > :04:18.all 360 constituencies might be discussing. All I can do is give you
:04:18. > :04:24.the example of the few I have seen and know it is not on the agenda.
:04:24. > :04:29.Without a pact, it is perfectly possible that you could fail to win
:04:29. > :04:34.a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing
:04:34. > :04:46.Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are
:04:46. > :04:58.very clear marginals, just like Eddy Izzard was. I believe there could be
:04:58. > :05:01.an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If you take enough votes away from the
:05:01. > :05:07.Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment
:05:07. > :05:12.I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held
:05:12. > :05:17.seat, even after that result, does not mean that UKIP is suddenly going
:05:17. > :05:20.to be focusing on Tory seats. We are out there because people resonate
:05:20. > :05:23.with our message. For the Liberal Democrats to make it abundantly
:05:23. > :05:27.clear that they will not support a referendum, that they will not
:05:27. > :05:31.support any discussion on leaving the queue, that could be a big
:05:31. > :05:35.turn-off for voters. David Cameron says there is not going to be a
:05:35. > :05:39.pact, Diane James says there is not going to be one. There might be one
:05:39. > :05:43.or at a constituency level. But it seems clear to me that there will
:05:43. > :05:48.not be a national one. So, does David Cameron have a UKIP strategy?
:05:48. > :05:50.The only encouraging thing for UKIP's successful David Cameron is
:05:50. > :05:52.that their support is so enormous UKIP's successful David Cameron is
:05:52. > :05:57.that the moment that he would only really need to win back maybe a
:05:57. > :06:00.third or a quarter of its to make a decisive difference to the Tory
:06:00. > :06:04.share of the vote in 2015. The question becomes, how much of that
:06:04. > :06:09.UKIP support is up for grabs? A poll last week suggested that 47% of
:06:09. > :06:12.current UKIP voters would consider voting Tory if it meant preventing
:06:12. > :06:16.Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister. That number goes up to 57% against
:06:16. > :06:21.the backdrop of an economic recovery. So, plausibly, there is
:06:21. > :06:24.quite a lot to play with. The secondary question is, what does
:06:24. > :06:29.David Cameron do to win over those people? He has tried a Europe will
:06:29. > :06:32.referendum and it didn't work. He tried travelling up his immigration
:06:32. > :06:37.policy and that didn't work. I wonder if it is time. You wait until
:06:37. > :06:42.the run-up to 2015, when they start to focus on the explicit choice
:06:42. > :06:45.between Ed Miliband and David Cameron, and that is what shifts a
:06:45. > :06:52.lot of UKIP support to David Cameron. We heard from William Hague
:06:52. > :06:55.earlier in the programme, the Tory line is that if you vote UKIP you
:06:55. > :07:01.could end up with Ed Miliband in Downing Street. That is the simple
:07:01. > :07:07.appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think Diane is right, I think the European
:07:07. > :07:12.elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where
:07:12. > :07:16.you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited
:07:16. > :07:21.about that, I think that bounce will fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a
:07:21. > :07:27.good ground game, that is difficult for UKIP, that don't have that
:07:27. > :07:33.machinery sorted. How are they going to fund that operation? But the UKIP
:07:33. > :07:37.bounce could fade away after the European elections. Even if they go
:07:37. > :07:40.down to 6% or 8% in a general election, they are still immensely
:07:40. > :07:45.dangerous to the Conservative Party. But there is really only two things
:07:45. > :07:48.David Cameron can do. One is to be boring and talk about helping people
:07:48. > :07:53.with their mortgage, helping with bread and butter issues. The second
:07:53. > :07:57.thing is, those European actions, he tends to the natural Conservative
:07:57. > :08:01.voters and says, you have had your fun, next year do you want me or Ed
:08:01. > :08:05.Miliband us your prime and? The real danger with David Cameron is saying,
:08:05. > :08:11.of course, there is not going to be a pact, the danger is you will get a
:08:11. > :08:15.repeat of the 1977 election. John Major said, famously, do not bind my
:08:15. > :08:18.hands. A series of Conservative candidates said they would
:08:18. > :08:23.personally rule out membership of the euro, when the Conservative
:08:23. > :08:26.membership was wait and see. That looked like a Prime Minister not in
:08:26. > :08:30.charge of his party. The danger is you will get a repeat of that
:08:30. > :08:34.amongst Conservative candidates. Let's assume you do really well in
:08:34. > :08:41.the European actions and there is a widespread expectation that you
:08:41. > :08:44.will, even in Downing Street. They might be managing expectations. What
:08:44. > :08:49.stops you fading away as the general election approaches? A number of
:08:49. > :08:52.reasons. As has been mentioned, the whole issue of the referendum pledge
:08:52. > :08:59.has been proved to be an absolute nonsense. It is so contingent on if
:08:59. > :09:06.I am re-elected, if it's not a coalition government, is, if, if.
:09:06. > :09:09.That was fooled nobody. The issue of where voters are coming from, it is
:09:09. > :09:14.because they have lost faith in what David Cameron says. There is nothing
:09:14. > :09:18.he is going to say that is convince them to give him another chance. I
:09:18. > :09:23.think that is my view and the view of a lot of UKIP. I am told that
:09:23. > :09:31.they have expunged Nigel Farage from the fringes? It is a great scoop, on
:09:31. > :09:34.the front page. They are outside the ring of steel. Even so, they won't
:09:34. > :09:38.include him in the conference programme, so they must be worried
:09:38. > :09:43.about something. His people have paid money for adverts in the Tory
:09:43. > :09:46.brochure and his name has been taken out. Speaking of people the Tory
:09:46. > :09:50.brochure and his name has been taken leadership is worried about, Boris
:09:50. > :09:52.Johnson, are we in any doubt as a result of his Financial Times
:09:52. > :10:00.interview that he is now beginning his long march back to Parliament?
:10:00. > :10:04.He does express feeling slightly sad during the Syria debate that he was
:10:04. > :10:10.not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do not
:10:10. > :10:15.see why it is in his interest is to move before 2015. No, I don't think
:10:15. > :10:21.he will move before, I think he is sending a signal to the existing
:10:21. > :10:32.Tories in the Commons that when Call Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has
:10:32. > :10:35.the Vince Cable problem, if you say the same thing too many times,
:10:35. > :10:40.people get bored and factor it in. The interesting thing is him saying
:10:40. > :10:45.that people have seven years before the electorate get bored of them. He
:10:45. > :10:48.might be cresting that. He doesn't want to be Prime Minister, he is
:10:48. > :10:55.much more ambitious than that. He wants to be an emperor. He was
:10:55. > :10:59.asked, which Roman emperor would you like to be compared to? You said,
:10:59. > :11:05.Augustus, the first and most important. I don't think you are
:11:06. > :11:12.thinking big enough. See what I have to put up with, every Sunday? By
:11:12. > :11:15.virtue of being born in the US, he could be president. Unlike Arnold
:11:15. > :11:25.Schwarzenegger. How about a deal with Boris? He has made no secret,
:11:25. > :11:28.after Eastleigh, that he would be open to a discussion. Let's call it
:11:28. > :11:34.no more than a discussion. He has been adamant, however, he does not
:11:34. > :11:36.see any reason, any justification or any opportunity where he would be
:11:36. > :11:42.able to have that discourse with any opportunity where he would be
:11:42. > :11:47.David Cameron. Maybe it comes down to that on both sides. I've no idea.
:11:47. > :11:52.We know that the Tories will be even more Eurosceptic after the next
:11:52. > :11:56.election? I can't imagine David Cameron's successor will be somebody
:11:56. > :11:59.that supports EU membership in principle. If you look at the
:11:59. > :12:05.ideological direction of the party. The leadership contest will be about
:12:05. > :12:08.2018. If you are standing, when David Cameron renegotiate our
:12:08. > :12:11.membership, are you going to say David Cameron renegotiate our
:12:11. > :12:14.this is a great deal for Britain because the Prime Minister has
:12:14. > :12:16.turned to leave rapid change two words in the working Time directive,
:12:16. > :12:20.turned to leave rapid change two or are you going to become a leader
:12:20. > :12:27.by saying, I want out? What would be a good conference for David Cameron
:12:27. > :12:31.this week? A decent poll bounce. Ed Miliband have a good one. An
:12:31. > :12:36.eye-catching announcement related to living standards. May be a clearer
:12:36. > :12:41.line on energy prices? That would certainly help, that fightback has
:12:41. > :12:44.been rubbish so far. The thing we should be looking out for are not
:12:44. > :12:48.the polls immediately after, but the ones about the end of October, when
:12:48. > :12:53.everything gets to settle down and then we will see what happens. In a
:12:53. > :12:57.word, what is Nigel Farage out to get at the Tory conference? What is
:12:57. > :13:05.he doing, other than mischief? I could almost say revenge. Revenge on
:13:05. > :13:08.Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord Ashcroft was there at the Labour
:13:08. > :13:13.conference, let's put it into conference. You call it mischief,
:13:13. > :13:18.but there is every reason why he should be there. We all call it
:13:18. > :13:22.mischief. Thanks for being with us. Join me on Daily Politics for live
:13:22. > :13:27.coverage of the Conservative Party conference tomorrow morning from
:13:27. > :13:31.11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring you George Osborne's speech live and
:13:31. > :13:35.uninterrupted. I'll be back next weekend when guests will include
:13:35. > :13:38.former Conservative Chancellor Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it is
:13:38. > :13:40.Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.