0:00:38 > 0:00:40Morning, everyone.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith, and welcome to The Sunday Politics,
0:00:42 > 0:00:45where we always bring you everything you need to know to understand
0:00:45 > 0:00:46what's going on in politics.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50Coming up on today's programme...
0:00:50 > 0:00:52The Government says
0:00:52 > 0:00:55the international trade minister Mark Garnier will be investigated
0:00:55 > 0:00:57following newspaper allegations of inappropriate behaviour
0:00:57 > 0:00:59towards a female staff member.
0:00:59 > 0:01:05We'll have the latest.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08The Prime Minister says she can agree a deal with the EU and plenty
0:01:08 > 0:01:15of time for Parliament to vote on it before we leave in 2018. Well
0:01:15 > 0:01:19Parliament play ball? New evidence cast out on the
0:01:21 > 0:01:22And in Northern Ireland:
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Deja vu all over again as tomorrow marks another deadline at Stormont
0:01:25 > 0:01:27with a round of last-minute talks.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29I'll be asking the smaller parties if anyone really
0:01:29 > 0:01:31believes a deal is possible. on from the abortion act white MPs
0:01:31 > 0:01:33are lobbying the Home Secretary to stop the alleged
0:01:34 > 0:01:37stop the alleged harassment of women attending abortion clinics.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45And with me today to help make sense of all the big stories,
0:01:45 > 0:01:48Julia Hartley-Brewer, Steve Richards and Anne McElvoy.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Some breaking news this morning.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53The Government has announced that it will investigate
0:01:53 > 0:01:55whether the International Trade Minister Mark Garnier broke
0:01:55 > 0:01:56the Ministerial Code following allegations
0:01:56 > 0:02:01of inappropriate behaviour.
0:02:01 > 0:02:05It comes after reports in the Mail on Sunday which has spoken to one
0:02:05 > 0:02:06of Mr Garnier's former employees.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08News of the investigation was announced by the Health
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Secretary Jeremy Hunt on the Andrew Marr show earlier.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13The stories, if they are true, are totally unacceptable
0:02:13 > 0:02:16and the Cabinet Office will be conducting an investigation
0:02:16 > 0:02:19as to whether there has been a breach of the ministerial code
0:02:19 > 0:02:20in this particular case.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22But as you know the facts are disputed.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25This is something that covers behaviour by MPs of all parties
0:02:25 > 0:02:28and that is why the other thing that is going to happen
0:02:28 > 0:02:31is that today Theresa May is going to write to John Bercow,
0:02:31 > 0:02:35the Speaker of the House of Commons, to ask for his advice as to how
0:02:35 > 0:02:40we change that culture.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44That was Jeremy Hunt a little earlier. I want to turn to the panel
0:02:44 > 0:02:49to make sense of this news. This is the government taking these
0:02:49 > 0:02:53allegations quite seriously.What has changed in this story is they
0:02:53 > 0:02:57used to be a bit of delay while people work out what they should say
0:02:57 > 0:03:03about it, how seriously to take it. As you see now a senior cabinet
0:03:03 > 0:03:07member out there, Jeremy Hunt, with an instant response. He does have
0:03:07 > 0:03:11the worry of whether the facts are disputed, but what they want to be
0:03:11 > 0:03:15seen doing is to do something very quickly. In the past they would say
0:03:15 > 0:03:20it was all part of the rough and tumble of Westminster.Mark Garnier
0:03:20 > 0:03:25does not deny these stories, which is that he asked an employee to buy
0:03:25 > 0:03:29sex toys, but he said it was just high jinks and it was taken out of
0:03:29 > 0:03:33context. Is this the sort of thing that a few years ago in a different
0:03:33 > 0:03:39environment would be investigated? Not necessarily quite the frenzy
0:03:39 > 0:03:47that it is nowadays. The combination of social media, all the Sunday
0:03:47 > 0:03:49political programmes were ministers have to go on armed with a response
0:03:49 > 0:03:56means that you get these we have to be seen to be doing something. That
0:03:56 > 0:04:01means there is this Cabinet Office investigation. You pointed out to us
0:04:01 > 0:04:05before the programme that he was not a minister before this happened. It
0:04:05 > 0:04:09does not matter whether he says yes, know I did this or did not,
0:04:09 > 0:04:14something has to be seen to be done. Clearly ministers today are being
0:04:14 > 0:04:18armed with that bit of information and that Theresa May will ask John
0:04:18 > 0:04:21Bercow the speaker to look into the whole culture of Parliament in this
0:04:21 > 0:04:28context. That is the response to this kind of frenzy.If we do live
0:04:28 > 0:04:31in an environment where something has to be seen to be done, does that
0:04:31 > 0:04:37always mean the right thing gets done?Absolutely not. We are in
0:04:37 > 0:04:41witch hunt territory. All of us work in the Commons over many years and
0:04:41 > 0:04:45anyone would think it was a scene out of Benny Hill or a carry on
0:04:45 > 0:04:51film. Sadly it is not that much fun and it is rather dull and dreary.
0:04:51 > 0:04:56Yes, there are sex pests, yes, there is sexual harassment, but the idea
0:04:56 > 0:05:00this is going on on a huge scale is nonsense.Doesn't matter whether it
0:05:00 > 0:05:07is a huge scale or not? Or just a few instances?Any workplace where
0:05:07 > 0:05:12you have the mixing of work and social so intertwined and you throw
0:05:12 > 0:05:15a huge amount of alcohol and late night and people living away from
0:05:15 > 0:05:22home you will have this happen.That does not make it OK.It makes sexual
0:05:22 > 0:05:26harassment not OK as it is not anywhere. This happens to men as
0:05:26 > 0:05:31well and if they have an issue into it there are employment tribunal 's
0:05:31 > 0:05:35and they can contact lawyers. I do not think this should be a matter of
0:05:35 > 0:05:41the speaker, it should be someone completely independent of any party.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45People think MPs are employees of the party or the Commons, they are
0:05:45 > 0:05:49not.Because they are self-employed to whom do you go if you are a
0:05:49 > 0:05:55researcher?That has to be clarified. I agree you need a much
0:05:55 > 0:06:01clearer line of reporting. It was a bit like the situation when we came
0:06:01 > 0:06:06into the media many years ago, the Punic wars in my case! You were not
0:06:06 > 0:06:14quite sure who to go to. If you work worried that it might impede your
0:06:14 > 0:06:18career, and you had to talk to people who work next to you, that is
0:06:18 > 0:06:23just one example, but in the Commons people do not know who they should
0:06:23 > 0:06:27go to. Where Theresa May might be making a mistake, it is the same
0:06:27 > 0:06:31mistake when it was decided to investigate through Levinson the
0:06:31 > 0:06:37culture of the media which was like nailing jelly to a wall. Look at the
0:06:37 > 0:06:40culture of anybody's job and the environment they are in and there is
0:06:40 > 0:06:45usually a lot wrong with it. When you try and make it general, they
0:06:45 > 0:06:50are not trying to blame individuals, or it say they need a better line on
0:06:50 > 0:06:55reporting of sexual harassment, which I support, the Commons is a
0:06:55 > 0:06:59funny place and it is a rough old trade and you are never going to
0:06:59 > 0:07:03iron out the human foibles of that. Diane Abbott was talking about this
0:07:03 > 0:07:07earlier.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11When I first went into Parliament so many of those men had been to all
0:07:11 > 0:07:18boys boarding schools and had really difficult attitudes towards women.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22The world has moved on and middle-aged women are less likely
0:07:22 > 0:07:31than middle-aged men to believe that young research are irresistibly
0:07:31 > 0:07:36attracted to them. We have seen the issues and we have seen one of our
0:07:36 > 0:07:43colleagues been suspended for quite unacceptable language.
0:07:43 > 0:07:47That is a point, Jarrod O'Mara, a Labour MP who has had the whip
0:07:47 > 0:07:52suspended, this goes across all parties.The idea that there is a
0:07:52 > 0:07:57left or right divide over this is absurd. This is a cultural issue. In
0:07:57 > 0:08:02the media and in a lot of other institutions if this is going to
0:08:02 > 0:08:06develop politically, the frenzy will carry on for a bit and other names
0:08:06 > 0:08:10will come out over the next few days, not just the two we have
0:08:10 > 0:08:17mentioned so far in politics. But it also raises questions about how
0:08:17 > 0:08:22candidates are selected for example. There has been a huge pressure for
0:08:22 > 0:08:27the centre to keep out of things. I bet from now on there will be much
0:08:27 > 0:08:31greater scrutiny of all candidates and tweets will have to be looked at
0:08:31 > 0:08:38and all the rest of it.Selecting candidates is interesting. Miriam
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Gonzalez, Nick Clegg's wife, says that during that election they knew
0:08:42 > 0:08:46about Jarrod O'Mara and the Lib Dems knew about it, so it is difficult to
0:08:46 > 0:08:53suggest the Labour Party did not as well.There is very clear evidence
0:08:53 > 0:08:57the Labour Party did know. But we are in a situation of how perfect
0:08:57 > 0:09:04and well-behaved does everyone have to be? If you look at past American
0:09:04 > 0:09:08presidents, JFK and Bill Clinton, these men were sex pest
0:09:08 > 0:09:11extraordinaire, with totally inappropriate behaviour on a regular
0:09:11 > 0:09:16basis. There are things you are not allowed to say if you are feminists.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20Young women are really attracted to powerful men. I was busted for the
0:09:20 > 0:09:25idea that there are young women in the House of commons who are
0:09:25 > 0:09:31throwing themselves at middle-aged, potbellied, balding, older men. We
0:09:31 > 0:09:38need to focus on the right things. When it is unwanted, harassing,
0:09:38 > 0:09:41inappropriate and criminal, absolutely, you come down like a
0:09:41 > 0:09:45tonne of bricks. It is not just because there are more women in the
0:09:45 > 0:09:49Commons, it is because there are more men married to women like us.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52We have to leave it there.
0:09:52 > 0:09:54As attention turns in Westminster to the hundreds
0:09:54 > 0:09:57of amendments put down on the EU Withdrawal Bill, David Davis has
0:09:57 > 0:10:00caused a stir this week by saying it's possible Parliament won't get
0:10:00 > 0:10:03a vote on the Brexit deal until after March 2019 -
0:10:03 > 0:10:05when the clock runs out and we leave the EU.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07Let's take a look at how the controversy played out.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11And which point do you envisage Parliament having a vote?
0:10:11 > 0:10:13As soon as possible thereafter.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16This Parliament?
0:10:16 > 0:10:18As soon as possible possible thereafter, yeah.
0:10:18 > 0:10:19As soon as possible thereafter.
0:10:19 > 0:10:20So, the vote in Parliament...
0:10:20 > 0:10:22The other thing...
0:10:22 > 0:10:23Could be after March 2019?
0:10:23 > 0:10:25It could be, yeah, it could be.
0:10:25 > 0:10:26The...
0:10:26 > 0:10:28It depends when it concludes.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30Mr Barnier, remember, has said he'd like...
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Sorry, the vote of our Parliament, the UK Parliament, could be
0:10:33 > 0:10:34after March 2019?
0:10:34 > 0:10:36Yes, it could be.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38Could be.
0:10:38 > 0:10:39The thing to member...
0:10:39 > 0:10:41Which would be...
0:10:41 > 0:10:43Well, it can't come before we have the deal.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46You said that it is POSSIBLE that Parliament night not vote
0:10:46 > 0:10:49on the deal until AFTER the end of March 2019.
0:10:49 > 0:10:50I'm summarising correctly what you said...?
0:10:50 > 0:10:52Yeah, that's correct.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55In the event we don't do the deal until then, yeah.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57Can the Prime Minister please explain how it's possible
0:10:57 > 0:10:59to have a meaningful vote on something that's
0:10:59 > 0:11:04already taken place?
0:11:04 > 0:11:07As the honourable gentleman knows, we're in negotiations
0:11:07 > 0:11:10with the European Union, but I am confident that the timetable under
0:11:10 > 0:11:14the Lisbon Treaty does give time until March 2019
0:11:14 > 0:11:16for the negotiations to take place.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19But I'm confident, because it is in the interests of both sides,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22it's not just this Parliament that wants to have a vote on that deal,
0:11:22 > 0:11:24but actually there will be ratification by other parliaments,
0:11:24 > 0:11:29that we will be able to achieve that agreement and that negotiation
0:11:29 > 0:11:32in time for this Parliament to have a vote that we committed to.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35We are working to reach an agreement on the final deal
0:11:35 > 0:11:38in good time before we leave the European Union in March 2019.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40Clearly, we cannot say for certain at this stage
0:11:40 > 0:11:42when this will be agreed.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45But as Michel Barnier said, he hopes to get a draft deal
0:11:45 > 0:11:50agreed by October 2018, and that's our aim is well.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54agreed by October 2018, and that's our aim as well.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56I'm joined now by the former Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary
0:11:56 > 0:11:58Benn, who is the chair of the Commons Brexit Committee,
0:11:58 > 0:12:02which David Davis was giving evidence to.
0:12:02 > 0:12:08Good morning.When you think a parliamentary vote should take place
0:12:08 > 0:12:13in order for it to be meaningful?It has to be before we leave the
0:12:13 > 0:12:16European Union. Michel Barnier said at the start of the negotiations
0:12:16 > 0:12:21that he wants to wrap them up by October of next year, so we have
0:12:21 > 0:12:24only got 12 months left, the clock is ticking and there is a huge
0:12:24 > 0:12:28amount of ground to cover.You do not think there is any point in
0:12:28 > 0:12:39having the vote the week before we leave because you could then not go
0:12:39 > 0:12:42and re-negotiate?That would not be acceptable. We will not be given a
0:12:42 > 0:12:45bit of paper and told to take it or leave it. But the following day
0:12:45 > 0:12:48Steve Baker, also a minister in the department, told our committee that
0:12:48 > 0:12:52the government now accepts that in order to implement transitional
0:12:52 > 0:12:56arrangements that it is seeking, it will need separate legislation. I
0:12:56 > 0:13:00put the question to him if you are going to need separate legislation
0:13:00 > 0:13:04to do that, why don't you have a separate bill to implement the
0:13:04 > 0:13:07withdrawal agreement rather than seeking to use the powers the
0:13:07 > 0:13:12government is proposing to take in the EU withdrawal bill.If we stick
0:13:12 > 0:13:16to the timing, you have said you do not think it is possible to
0:13:16 > 0:13:20negotiate a trade deal in the next 12 months. You say the only people
0:13:20 > 0:13:25who think that is possible British ministers. If you do not believe we
0:13:25 > 0:13:30can get a deal negotiated, how can we get a vote on it in 12 months'
0:13:30 > 0:13:34time?If things go well, and there is still a risk of no agreement
0:13:34 > 0:13:48which would be disastrous for the economy and the country, if
0:13:53 > 0:13:56things go there will be a deal on the divorce issues, there will be a
0:13:56 > 0:13:58deal on the nature of the transitional arrangement and the
0:13:58 > 0:14:01government is to set out how it thinks that will work, and then an
0:14:01 > 0:14:04agreement between the UK and the 27 member states saying, we will now
0:14:04 > 0:14:06negotiate a new trade and market access arrangement, and new
0:14:06 > 0:14:08association agreement between the two parties, and that will be done
0:14:08 > 0:14:10in the transition period. Parliament will be voting in those
0:14:10 > 0:14:15circumstances on a deal which leads to the door being open.But we would
0:14:15 > 0:14:20be outside the EU at that point, so how meaningful can vote be where you
0:14:20 > 0:14:25take it or leave it if we have already left the EU? Surely this has
0:14:25 > 0:14:31to happen before March 2019 for it to make a difference?I do not think
0:14:31 > 0:14:35it is possible to negotiate all of the issues that will need to be
0:14:35 > 0:14:40covered in the time available.Then it is not possible to have a
0:14:40 > 0:14:51meaningful vote on it?Parliament will have to have a look at the deal
0:14:51 > 0:14:54presented to it. It is likely to be a mix agreement so the approval
0:14:54 > 0:14:56process in the rest of Europe, unlike the Article 50 agreement,
0:14:56 > 0:14:59which will be a majority vote in the European Parliament and in the
0:14:59 > 0:15:02British Parliament, every single Parliament will have a vote on it,
0:15:02 > 0:15:07so it will be a more complex process anyway, but I do not think that is
0:15:07 > 0:15:13the time to get all of that sorted between now and October next year.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17Whether it is before or after we have left the EU, the government
0:15:17 > 0:15:22have said it is a take it or leave it option and it is the Noel Edmonds
0:15:22 > 0:15:29option, deal or no Deal, you say yes or no to it. You cannot send them
0:15:29 > 0:15:33back to re-negotiate.
0:15:33 > 0:15:38If it is a separate piece of legislation, when Parliament has a
0:15:38 > 0:15:44chance to shape the nature of that legislation.But it can't change
0:15:44 > 0:15:48what has been negotiated with the EU?Well, you could say to the
0:15:48 > 0:15:53government, we're happy with this but was not happy about that chukka
0:15:53 > 0:15:58here's some fresh instructions, go back in and...It seems to me what
0:15:58 > 0:16:02they want is the maximum access to the single market for the lowest
0:16:02 > 0:16:06possible tariffs, whilst able to control migration. If they've got to
0:16:06 > 0:16:11get the best deal that they can on that, how on earth is the Labour
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Party, saying we want a bit more, owing to persuade the other 27?We
0:16:15 > 0:16:19certainly don't want the lowest possible tariffs, we want no tariffs
0:16:19 > 0:16:23are taught. My personal view is that, has made a profound mistake in
0:16:23 > 0:16:28deciding that it wants to leave the customs union. If you want to help
0:16:28 > 0:16:33deal with the very serious question of the border between Northern
0:16:33 > 0:16:37Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, the way you do that is to stay in
0:16:37 > 0:16:42the customs union and I hope, will change its mind.But the Labour
0:16:42 > 0:16:45Party is simply saying in the House of Commons, we want a better deal
0:16:45 > 0:16:53than what, has been able to get?It depends how the negotiations unfold.
0:16:53 > 0:16:58, has ended up on the transitional arrangements in the place that Keir
0:16:58 > 0:17:04Starmer set out on behalf of the shadow cabinet in August, when he
0:17:04 > 0:17:07said, we will need to stay in the single market and the customs union
0:17:07 > 0:17:10for the duration of the transition, and I think that is the position,
0:17:10 > 0:17:15has now reached. It has not been helped by differences of view within
0:17:15 > 0:17:19the Cabinet, and a lot of time has passed and there's proved time left
0:17:19 > 0:17:24and we have not even got on to the negotiations. -- there's very little
0:17:24 > 0:17:30time left.On phase two, the labour Party have set out six clear tests,
0:17:30 > 0:17:35and two of them are crucial. You say you want the exact same benefits we
0:17:35 > 0:17:39currently have in the customs union but you also want to be able to
0:17:39 > 0:17:43ensure the fair migration to control immigration, basically, which does
0:17:43 > 0:17:46sound a bit like having your cake and eating it. You say that you will
0:17:46 > 0:17:50vote against any deal that doesn't give you all of that, the exact same
0:17:50 > 0:17:54benefits of the single market, and allowing you to control migration.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58But you say no deal would be catastrophic if so it seems to me
0:17:58 > 0:18:01you're unlikely to get the deal that you could vote for but you don't
0:18:01 > 0:18:06want to vote for no deal?We absolutely don't want a no deal.
0:18:06 > 0:18:12Businesses have sent a letter to the Prime Minister saying that a
0:18:12 > 0:18:14transition is essential because the possibility of a no deal and no
0:18:14 > 0:18:18transitional would be very damaging for the economy. We fought the
0:18:18 > 0:18:20general election on a policy of seeking to retain the benefits of
0:18:20 > 0:18:25the single market and the customs union. Keir Starmer said on behalf
0:18:25 > 0:18:30of the shadow government that as far as the longer term arrangements are
0:18:30 > 0:18:33concerned, that should leave all options on the table, because it is
0:18:33 > 0:18:36the end that you're trying to achieve and you then find the means
0:18:36 > 0:18:42to support it. So we're setting out very clearly those tests.If you
0:18:42 > 0:18:45were to vote down an agreement because it did not meet your tests,
0:18:45 > 0:18:51and there was time to send, back to the EU to get a better deal, then
0:18:51 > 0:18:53you would have significantly weakened their negotiating hand
0:18:53 > 0:18:57chukka that doesn't help them?I don't think, has deployed its
0:18:57 > 0:19:02negotiating hand very strongly thus far. Because we had a general
0:19:02 > 0:19:04election which meant that we lost time that we would have used for
0:19:04 > 0:19:09negotiating. We still don't know what kind of long-term trade and
0:19:09 > 0:19:16market access deal, wants. The Prime Minister says, I don't want a deal
0:19:16 > 0:19:19like Canada and I don't want a deal like the European Economic Area. But
0:19:19 > 0:19:24we still don't know what kind of deal they want. With about 12 months
0:19:24 > 0:19:28to go, the other thing, needs to do is to set out very clearly above all
0:19:28 > 0:19:33for the benefit of the other 27 European countries, what kind of
0:19:33 > 0:19:36deal it wants. When I travel to Europe and talk to those involved in
0:19:36 > 0:19:41the negotiations, you see other leaders saying, we don't actually
0:19:41 > 0:19:45know what Britain wants. With a year to go it is about time we made that
0:19:45 > 0:19:51clear.One related question on the European Union - you spoke in your
0:19:51 > 0:19:54famous speech in Syria about the international brigades in Spain, and
0:19:54 > 0:19:59I wonder if your solidarity with them leads you to think that the UK
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Government should be recognising Catalonia is an independent state?
0:20:02 > 0:20:07No, I don't think so. It is a very difficult and potentially dangerous
0:20:07 > 0:20:12situation in Catalonia at the moment. Direct rule from Madrid is
0:20:12 > 0:20:17not a long-term solution. There needs to be a negotiation, and
0:20:17 > 0:20:21elections will give Catalonia the chance to take that decision, but I
0:20:21 > 0:20:27am not clear what the declaration of independence actually means. Are
0:20:27 > 0:20:31they going to be borders, is they're going to be an army? There will have
0:20:31 > 0:20:35to be some agreement. Catalonia has already had a high degree of
0:20:35 > 0:20:40autonomy. It may like some more, and it seems to me if you look at the
0:20:40 > 0:20:45experience here in the United Kingdom, that is the way to go, not
0:20:45 > 0:20:48a constitutional stand-off. And I really hope nobody is charged with
0:20:48 > 0:20:52rebellion, because actually that would make matters worse.
0:20:52 > 0:20:56Now, the Government has this week reopened the public
0:20:56 > 0:20:58consultation on plans for a third runway at Heathrow.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00While ministers are clear the £18 billion project
0:21:00 > 0:21:03is still the preferred option, new data raises further questions
0:21:03 > 0:21:04about the environmental impact of expansion,
0:21:04 > 0:21:06and offers an improved economic case for a second
0:21:06 > 0:21:08runway at Gatwick instead.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10So, with opponents on all sides of the Commons, does the Government
0:21:10 > 0:21:13still have the votes to get the plans off the ground?
0:21:13 > 0:21:22Here's Elizabeth Glinka.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28The debate over the expansion of Heathrow has been
0:21:28 > 0:21:30going on for decades.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32Plans for a third runway were first introduced
0:21:32 > 0:21:34by the Labour government in 2003.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Then, after spending millions of pounds, finally, in 2015,
0:21:37 > 0:21:43the airport commission recommended that those plans go ahead,
0:21:43 > 0:21:46and the government position appeared to be fixed.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49But, of course, since then, we've had a general election.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53The Government have lost their Commons majority.
0:21:53 > 0:21:55And with opposition on both front benches, the Parliamentary
0:21:55 > 0:22:00arithmetic looks a little bit up in the air.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03A lot has changed since the airport commission produced its report,
0:22:03 > 0:22:06and that don't forget was the bedrock for the Government's
0:22:06 > 0:22:08decision, that's why the government supposedly made the decision
0:22:08 > 0:22:09that it made.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12But most of the assumptions made in that report have
0:22:12 > 0:22:14been undermined since, by data on passenger numbers,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17on economic benefits, and more than anything, on pollution.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20There's demand from international carriers to get into Heathrow.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22More and more people want to fly.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26And after the referendum, connectivity post-Brexit
0:22:26 > 0:22:29is going to be absolutely critical to the UK economy, so if anything,
0:22:29 > 0:22:35I think the case is stronger for expansion at Heathrow.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38A vote on expansion had been due to take place this summer.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40But with Westminster somewhat distracted, that didn't happen.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43Now, fresh data means the Government has had to reopen
0:22:43 > 0:22:49the public consultation.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52But it maintains the case for Heathrow is as strong as ever,
0:22:52 > 0:22:57delivering benefits of up to £74 billion to the wider economy.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00And in any case, the Government says, action must be taken,
0:23:00 > 0:23:04as all five of London's airports will be completely
0:23:04 > 0:23:09full by the mid-2030s.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11Still, the new research does cast an alternative expansion at Gatwick
0:23:11 > 0:23:15in a more favourable economic light, while showing Heathrow
0:23:15 > 0:23:23is now less likely to meet its environmental targets.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27Campaigners like these in Hounslow sense the wind is shifting.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30We're feeling encouraged, because we see all kinds
0:23:30 > 0:23:32of weaknesses in the argument.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35Certainly, quite a few MPs, I think certainly Labour MPs,
0:23:35 > 0:23:38are beginning to think perhaps it's not such a great idea
0:23:38 > 0:23:40to have a third runway.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42Their MP is convinced colleagues can now be persuaded
0:23:42 > 0:23:45to see things their way.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47The Labour Party quite rightly set four key tests
0:23:47 > 0:23:50for a third runway at Heathrow.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53And in my view, Heathrow is not able...
0:23:53 > 0:23:57The Heathrow option is not able to pass any of those.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00So, I see a lot of colleagues in the Labour Party around
0:24:00 > 0:24:02the country beginning to think twice.
0:24:02 > 0:24:08And if you look at the cross-party MPs supportin this anti-Heathrow
0:24:08 > 0:24:11And if you look at the cross-party MPs supporting this anti-Heathrow
0:24:11 > 0:24:13protest this week, you will see some familiar faces.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15You know my position - as the constituency MP,
0:24:15 > 0:24:17I'm totally opposed.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20I think this is another indication of just the difficulties
0:24:20 > 0:24:22the Government have got off of implementing this policy.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24I don't think it's going to happen, I just don't think
0:24:24 > 0:24:25it's going to happen.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28So, if some on the Labour front bench are, shall
0:24:28 > 0:24:31we say, not supportive, what about the other side?
0:24:31 > 0:24:34In a free vote, we could have had up to 60 Conservative MPs
0:24:34 > 0:24:36voting against expansion, that's the number that is normally
0:24:36 > 0:24:37used and I think it's right.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39In the circumstances where it requires an active rebellion,
0:24:39 > 0:24:41the numbers would be fewer.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44I can't tell you what that number is, but I can tell
0:24:44 > 0:24:46you that there are people right the way through the party,
0:24:46 > 0:24:49from the backbenches to the heart of the government,
0:24:49 > 0:24:50who will vote against Heathrow expansion.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54And yet the SNP, whose Commons votes could prove vital,
0:24:54 > 0:24:56are behind the Heathrow plan, which promises more
0:24:56 > 0:24:56connecting flights.
0:24:56 > 0:25:01And other supporters are convinced they have the numbers.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04There is a majority of members of Parliament that support Heathrow
0:25:04 > 0:25:07expansion, and when that is put to the test, whenever that will be,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09I think that will be clearly demonstrated.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11Any vote on this issue won't come until next summer.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14For both sides, yet more time to argue about weather
0:25:14 > 0:25:21the plans should take off or be permanently grounded.
0:25:24 > 0:25:26Elizabeth Glinka there.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29And I'm joined now by the former Cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,
0:25:29 > 0:25:31who oversaw aviation policy as a transport minister
0:25:31 > 0:25:37under David Cameron.
0:25:37 > 0:25:43Thanks for coming in. You have made your opposition to a third runway at
0:25:43 > 0:25:46Heathrow consistently clear. , have reopened this consultation but it is
0:25:46 > 0:25:50still clearly their preferred option?It is but what I have always
0:25:50 > 0:25:54asked is, why try to build a new runway at Heathrow when you can
0:25:54 > 0:25:57build one at Gatwick in half the time, for half the cost and with a
0:25:57 > 0:26:01tiny fraction of the environment will cost average is that true,
0:26:01 > 0:26:05though? Private finance is already to go at Heathrow, because that's
0:26:05 > 0:26:08where people want to do it and that's where the private backers
0:26:08 > 0:26:12want to put it. It would take much longer to get the private finance
0:26:12 > 0:26:17for Gatwick? Part of that private finance is passengers of the future,
0:26:17 > 0:26:21but also, the costs of the surface transport needed to expand Heathrow
0:26:21 > 0:26:30is phenomenal. I mean, TfL estimates vary between £10 billion and £15
0:26:30 > 0:26:33billion. And there's no suggestion that those private backers are going
0:26:33 > 0:26:38to meet those costs. So, this is a hugely expensive project as well as
0:26:38 > 0:26:42one which will create very significant damage.Heathrow is
0:26:42 > 0:26:45ultimately where passengers and airlines want to go to, isn't it?
0:26:45 > 0:26:49Every slot is practically full. Every time a new one comes up, it is
0:26:49 > 0:26:55up immediately, it's a very popular airport. Gatwick is not where they
0:26:55 > 0:26:58want to go?There are many airlines and passengers who do want to fly
0:26:58 > 0:27:03from Gatwick, and all the forecasts indicate that a new runway there
0:27:03 > 0:27:07would be full of planes very rapidly. But I think the key thing
0:27:07 > 0:27:12is that successive elements have said, technology will deliver a way
0:27:12 > 0:27:18to resolve the around noise and air quality. I don't have any confidence
0:27:18 > 0:27:22that science has demonstrated that technology will deliver those
0:27:22 > 0:27:27solutions to these very serious environmental limbs which have
0:27:27 > 0:27:29stopped Heathrow expansion for decades.Jim Fitzpatrick in the film
0:27:29 > 0:27:34was mentioning that people think there is a need for even more
0:27:34 > 0:27:37collectivity in Britain post-Brexit. We know that business has been
0:27:37 > 0:27:40crying out for more routes, they really think it hurts business
0:27:40 > 0:27:45expansion that we don't get on with this. More consultation is just
0:27:45 > 0:27:49going to lead to more delay, isn't it?This is a hugely controversial
0:27:49 > 0:27:52decision. There is a reason why people have been talking about
0:27:52 > 0:27:55expanding Heathrow for 50 years and it is never happened, it's because
0:27:55 > 0:28:00it's a bad idea. So, inevitably the legal processes are very complex.
0:28:00 > 0:28:05One of my anxieties about, pursuing this option is that potentially it
0:28:05 > 0:28:08means another lost decade for airport expansion. Because the
0:28:08 > 0:28:14problems with Heathrow expansion are so serious, I believe that's one of
0:28:14 > 0:28:17the reasons why I advocated, anyone who wants a new runway in the
0:28:17 > 0:28:21south-east should be backing Gatwick is a much more deliverable option.
0:28:21 > 0:28:27Let me move on to Brexit. We were talking with Hilary Benn about a
0:28:27 > 0:28:30meaningful vote being given to the House of Commons chukka how
0:28:30 > 0:28:33important do you think that is?Of course the Commons will vote on
0:28:33 > 0:28:39this. The Commons is going to vote on this many, many times. We have
0:28:39 > 0:28:42also had a hugely important vote not only in the referendum on the 23rd
0:28:42 > 0:28:46of June but also on Article 50.But will that vote allow any changes to
0:28:46 > 0:28:52it? Hilary Benn seemed to think that the Commons would be able to shape
0:28:52 > 0:28:56the deal with the vote. But actually is it going to be, saying, take it
0:28:56 > 0:29:01or leave it at all what we have negotiated?Our Prime Minister
0:29:01 > 0:29:06negotiates on our behalf internationally. It's
0:29:06 > 0:29:08well-established precedent that after an agreement is reached
0:29:08 > 0:29:14overseas, then it is considered in the House of Commons.What if it was
0:29:14 > 0:29:18voted down in the House of Commons? Well, the legal effect of that would
0:29:18 > 0:29:21be that we left the European Union without any kind of deal, because
0:29:21 > 0:29:26the key decision was on the voting of Article 50 as an irreversible
0:29:26 > 0:29:31decision.Is it irreversible, though? We understand, may have had
0:29:31 > 0:29:35legal advice saying that Yukon stopped the clock on Article 50.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38Would it not be possible if the Commons voted against to ask the
0:29:38 > 0:29:42European Union for a little bit more time to try and renegotiate?There
0:29:42 > 0:29:50is a debate about the reversibility of Article 50. But the key point is
0:29:50 > 0:29:56that we are all working for a good deal for the United Kingdom and the
0:29:56 > 0:30:00I'm concerned that some of the amendments to the legislation are
0:30:00 > 0:30:03not about the nature of the deal at the end of the process, they're just
0:30:03 > 0:30:10about frustrating the process. I think that would be wrong. I think
0:30:10 > 0:30:13we should respect the result of the referendum.Will it be by next
0:30:13 > 0:30:16summer, so there is time for Parliament and for other
0:30:16 > 0:30:18parliaments?I certainly hope that we get that agreement between the
0:30:18 > 0:30:24two sides, and the recent European summit seemed to indicate a
0:30:24 > 0:30:28willingness from the European side to be constructive. But one point
0:30:28 > 0:30:32where I think Hilary Benn has a point, if we do secure agreement on
0:30:32 > 0:30:35a transitional deal, that does potentially give us more time to
0:30:35 > 0:30:40work on the details of a trade agreement. I hope we get as much as
0:30:40 > 0:30:44possible in place before exit day. But filling out some of that detail
0:30:44 > 0:30:52is made easier if we can secure that two-year transitional deal.
0:30:52 > 0:30:59That is interesting because a lot of Brexiteers what the deal to be done
0:30:59 > 0:31:06by the inflammation period, it is not a time for that.I fully
0:31:06 > 0:31:11recognise we need compromise, I am keen to work with people across my
0:31:11 > 0:31:15party in terms of spectrum of opinion, and with other parties as
0:31:15 > 0:31:20well to ensure we get the best outcome.Let me ask you briefly
0:31:20 > 0:31:24before you go about the possible culture of sexual harassment in the
0:31:24 > 0:31:29House of commons and Theresa May will write to the Speaker of the
0:31:29 > 0:31:33House of Commons to make sure there is a better way that people can
0:31:33 > 0:31:37report sexual harassment in the House of commons. Is that necessary?
0:31:37 > 0:31:43A better procedure is needed. It is sad it has taken this controversy to
0:31:43 > 0:31:48push this forward. But there is a problem with MPs who are individual
0:31:48 > 0:31:53employers. If you work for an MP and have a complaint against them,
0:31:53 > 0:31:56essentially they are overseeing their own complaints process. I
0:31:56 > 0:32:01think a role for the House of commons authorities in ensuring that
0:32:01 > 0:32:04those complaints are properly dealt with I think would be very helpful,
0:32:04 > 0:32:09so I think the Prime Minister's letter was a sensible move.So you
0:32:09 > 0:32:13think there is a culture of sexual harassment in the House of commons?
0:32:13 > 0:32:19I have not been subjected to it or seen evidence of it, but obviously
0:32:19 > 0:32:23there is anxiety and allegations have made their way into the papers
0:32:23 > 0:32:27and they should be treated appropriately and properly
0:32:27 > 0:32:28investigated.Thank you for talking to us.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31Thank you for talking to us.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33Next week the Lord Speaker's committee publishes its final report
0:32:33 > 0:32:35into reducing the size of the House of Lords.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38With over 800 members the upper house is the second largest
0:32:38 > 0:32:40legislative chamber in the world after the National People's
0:32:40 > 0:32:41Congress of China.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44The report is expected to recommend that new peerages should be
0:32:44 > 0:32:46time-limited to 15 years and that in the future political peerage
0:32:46 > 0:32:51appointments will also be tied to a party's election performance.
0:32:51 > 0:32:53The government has been under pressure to take action to cut
0:32:53 > 0:32:57members of the unelected chamber, where they are entitled
0:32:57 > 0:33:00to claim an attendance allowance of £300 a day.
0:33:00 > 0:33:04And once again these expenses have been in the news.
0:33:04 > 0:33:06The Electoral Reform Society discovered that 16 peers had claimed
0:33:06 > 0:33:09around £400,000 without speaking in any debates or submitting any
0:33:09 > 0:33:13questions for an entire year.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15One of the Lords to be criticised was Digby Jones,
0:33:15 > 0:33:19the crossbencher and former trade minister, he hasn't spoken
0:33:19 > 0:33:22in the Lords since April 2016 and has voted only seven times
0:33:22 > 0:33:25during 2016 and 2017.
0:33:25 > 0:33:29Yet he has claimed around £15,000 in this period.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32When asked what he does in the House he said,
0:33:32 > 0:33:34"I go in and I will invite for lunch or meet with inward
0:33:34 > 0:33:36investors into the country.
0:33:36 > 0:33:39I fly the flag for Britain."
0:33:39 > 0:33:42Well, we can speak now to Lord Jones who joins us
0:33:42 > 0:33:46from Stratford Upon Avon.
0:33:46 > 0:33:51Thank you very much for talking to us. You provide value for money in
0:33:51 > 0:33:58the House of Lords do you think? Definitely. I am, by the way, very
0:33:58 > 0:34:02keen on reform. I want to see that 15 year tide. I would like to see a
0:34:02 > 0:34:08time limit, an age limit of 75 or 80. I would like attendants
0:34:08 > 0:34:12definitely define so the whole public understood what people are
0:34:12 > 0:34:19paying for and why. The £300, as a crossbencher I get no support, and
0:34:19 > 0:34:27nor do I want any, speech writing, secretarial assistance, none of
0:34:27 > 0:34:31that, and the £300 goes towards that.Whilst you are in there
0:34:31 > 0:34:36because we will talk about the reform of the Lords in general, but
0:34:36 > 0:34:39in terms of you yourself, you say you invite people in for lunch, is
0:34:39 > 0:34:43it not possible for you to take part in debates and votes and ask
0:34:43 > 0:34:48questions at the same time?Have you ever listened to a debate in the
0:34:48 > 0:35:01laws? Yes, many times.Yes, many times. You have to put your name
0:35:01 > 0:35:09down in advance and you have to be there for the whole debate.You have
0:35:09 > 0:35:12to be around when the vote is called and you do not know when the book is
0:35:12 > 0:35:16called, you have no idea when the boat is going to be called.This is
0:35:16 > 0:35:22part of being a member of the House of Lords and what it means. If you
0:35:22 > 0:35:26are not prepared to wait or take part in debates, why do you want to
0:35:26 > 0:35:31be a member? It is possible to resign from the House of Lords.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35There are many things members of the Lords do that does not relate to
0:35:35 > 0:35:40parrot fashion following somebody else, which I refuse to do, about
0:35:40 > 0:35:45speaking to an empty chamber, or indeed hanging on sometimes for
0:35:45 > 0:35:50hours to vote. There are many other things that you do. You quote me as
0:35:50 > 0:35:54saying I will entertain at lunchtime or show people around the House,
0:35:54 > 0:35:58everything from schoolchildren to inward investors. I will meet
0:35:58 > 0:36:01ministers about big business issues or educational issues, and at the
0:36:01 > 0:36:06same time I will meet other members of the Lords to get things moving.
0:36:06 > 0:36:10None of that relates to going into the House and getting on your hind
0:36:10 > 0:36:14legs, although I do go in and sit there and learn and listen to
0:36:14 > 0:36:20others, which, if more people would receive and not transmit, we might
0:36:20 > 0:36:24get a better informed society. At the same time many times I will go
0:36:24 > 0:36:29after I have listened and I am leaving and if I have not heard the
0:36:29 > 0:36:35debate, I will not vote.Voting is an essential part of being part of a
0:36:35 > 0:36:40legislative chamber. This is not just an executive committee, it is a
0:36:40 > 0:36:45legislature, surpassing that law is essential, is it not?Do you really
0:36:45 > 0:36:49believe that an MP or a member of the Lords who has not heard a moment
0:36:49 > 0:36:56of the debate, who is then listening to the Bell, walks in and does not
0:36:56 > 0:37:00know which lobby, the whips tell him, they have not heard the debate
0:37:00 > 0:37:05and they do not know what they are voting on and they go and do it?
0:37:05 > 0:37:11That is your democracy? Voting seems to be an essential part of this
0:37:11 > 0:37:16chamber, and you have your ideas about reforming the chamber. It
0:37:16 > 0:37:19sounds as though you would reform yourself out of it. You say people
0:37:19 > 0:37:23who are not voting and who are not taking part in debate should no
0:37:23 > 0:37:30longer be members of the House.I did not say that. I said we ought to
0:37:30 > 0:37:34redefine what attendance means and then if you do not attend on the new
0:37:34 > 0:37:38criteria, you do not have to come ever again, we will give you your
0:37:38 > 0:37:44wish. I agree attendance might mean unless you speak, you are going.
0:37:44 > 0:37:49Fair enough, if that is what is agreed, yes. Sometimes I would speak
0:37:49 > 0:37:54and sometimes I would not. If I did not, then off I go. Similarly after
0:37:54 > 0:38:0115 years, off you go. If you reach 75 or 80, off you go. Why do we have
0:38:01 > 0:38:0692 members who are only there because of daddy.You are talking
0:38:06 > 0:38:09about hereditary peers. You would like to reduce the House to what
0:38:09 > 0:38:16kind of number?I would get it down to 400.You would get rid of half
0:38:16 > 0:38:20the peers there at the moment? You think you are active enough to
0:38:20 > 0:38:27remain as one of the 400?No, I said that might well include me. Let's
0:38:27 > 0:38:32get a set of criteria, let's push it through, because the laws is losing
0:38:32 > 0:38:36respect in the whole of the country because there are too many and all
0:38:36 > 0:38:40these things about what people pay for. I bet most people think the
0:38:40 > 0:38:45money you get is paid. It is not, it is re-funding for all the things you
0:38:45 > 0:38:51have to pay for yourself. But I understand how respect has been lost
0:38:51 > 0:38:56in society. Let's change it now. Let's get it through and then, yes,
0:38:56 > 0:39:01if you do not meet the criteria, you have got to go and that includes me.
0:39:01 > 0:39:03Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking to us.
0:39:03 > 0:39:05Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking to us.
0:39:05 > 0:39:08It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10Coming up on the programme, we'll be talking to the former
0:39:10 > 0:39:13business minister and Conservative MP Anna Soubry about the Brexit
0:39:13 > 0:39:15negotiations and claims of sexual harassment in Parliament.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
0:39:26 > 0:39:28So the two main parties don't look like they're about to meet
0:39:28 > 0:39:32tomorrow's latest Stormont deadline.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34They're not here, but the three smaller parties are and I'll be
0:39:34 > 0:39:40asking them what they think the next move will be.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43Do they have any say in what's going on?
0:39:43 > 0:39:46And what do they make of a budget being drawn up at Westminster?
0:39:46 > 0:39:49And residents say they want them to come down - but not yet.
0:39:49 > 0:39:51I'll be looking at the dilemma of the peace walls.
0:39:51 > 0:39:53And with me throughout with their thoughts -
0:39:53 > 0:39:55Chris Donnelly and Felicity Huston.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00The Secretary of State was at Stormont on Friday night
0:40:00 > 0:40:03for more talks with the DUP and Sinn Fein and with no deal
0:40:03 > 0:40:06in place at this late stage, it looks like James Brokenshire's
0:40:06 > 0:40:08"glide path to greater Westminster intervention"
0:40:08 > 0:40:12is about to become a reality.
0:40:12 > 0:40:14If that does prove to be the case, he's expected to begin
0:40:14 > 0:40:17the process of legislating for a budget next week.
0:40:17 > 0:40:19I'm joined by the UUP's Steve Aiken, the SDLP's Colin McGrath
0:40:19 > 0:40:27and Stephen Farry from the Alliance Party.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30We did invite the DUP and Sinn Fein to join us as well...
0:40:30 > 0:40:35Stephen, what do you expect to happen tomorrow?
0:40:35 > 0:40:39We're not sure. The Secretary of State has said he wants some written
0:40:39 > 0:40:44confirmation from the two parties that a deal is born but at this
0:40:44 > 0:40:47stage it seems unlikely that will happen. He will then move to put
0:40:47 > 0:40:53through a budget at Westminster starting the 6th of November. It is
0:40:53 > 0:40:58not welcomed but we have to ensure this is essential to ensure that we
0:40:58 > 0:41:02get our public resources sorted. There is a governance gap and we
0:41:02 > 0:41:06have to have ministers in place of some description who are capable of
0:41:06 > 0:41:13taking decisions to spend that money efficiently and effectively if we
0:41:13 > 0:41:15are to make a difference and reform and make our public services
0:41:15 > 0:41:17self-sufficient. I was speaking to Ian Paisley on
0:41:17 > 0:41:22Thursday night and it has to if at this late stage it at a rabbit could
0:41:22 > 0:41:26be pulled out of a hat and he did not even think there was a hat!The
0:41:26 > 0:41:29problem we have is that nobody knows what is happening in these
0:41:29 > 0:41:32negotiations. Number of the smaller parties do not know what is
0:41:32 > 0:41:36happening, the media and the people do not know. That is a smoke screen
0:41:36 > 0:41:40and not being able to tell people what is happening in the
0:41:40 > 0:41:42negotiations. The negotiations have been happening for seven months,
0:41:42 > 0:41:55there must be some give and take so what and what has been taken? Two
0:41:55 > 0:41:57weeks ago we were told a deal could be imminent. But without any detail.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00It works in the favour of the two main parties to know whether the
0:42:00 > 0:42:03residue or a no deal. They do not want to sing together the detail.
0:42:03 > 0:42:06The question must be asked by the public and the parties, what are
0:42:06 > 0:42:09they afraid of?What do you think will happen tomorrow? Steve Aiken,
0:42:09 > 0:42:13do you think something can be produced at the last minute?I do
0:42:13 > 0:42:16not think they will be any talk of a deal until after the party
0:42:16 > 0:42:21conferences. I do not see our Ben Foster and they do not see Michelle
0:42:21 > 0:42:25O'Neill and Gerry Adams going around and saying they have reached a deal
0:42:25 > 0:42:28before their respective party conferences all over in the next
0:42:28 > 0:42:34week or two. All of us had trepidation when we heard on Friday
0:42:34 > 0:42:39that the talks were continuing but Gerry Adams had arrived and every
0:42:39 > 0:42:42time he arrives in the process it seems that gone backwards. One of
0:42:42 > 0:42:46the biggest concern is that we have as a party as we do not know what is
0:42:46 > 0:42:51being discussed and in the rank-and-file of the DUP, they do
0:42:51 > 0:42:55not know what is being discussed. It would be very useful if we actually
0:42:55 > 0:42:58knew where we got to because I think, looking at the history of
0:42:58 > 0:43:03these things, I regret to say it, you will have to do the pantomime of
0:43:03 > 0:43:06going away for one week to have in-depth crisis talks to get to the
0:43:06 > 0:43:11next stage before Gerry Adams puts the kibosh on it again.People keep
0:43:11 > 0:43:15on saying this and every time it has been said that Gerry Adams is not
0:43:15 > 0:43:19making a positive contribution, Sinn Fein has said that is not the case.
0:43:19 > 0:43:25It is a mischaracterisation.The point is that you do not know. Let
0:43:25 > 0:43:30us look at the evidence, every time he comes along, things go backwards.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34You have said backwards but Stephen, this is exactly what people voted
0:43:34 > 0:43:39for. We keep having these conversations and saying this is not
0:43:39 > 0:43:44what people wanted or 44 but this is precisely what people voted for,
0:43:44 > 0:43:47they voted for Sinn Fein to hold the line in great numbers and for the
0:43:47 > 0:43:54DUP to do likewise.We have seen people thought out of fear creating
0:43:54 > 0:43:57a polarising situation. People voted against the perceptions of what the
0:43:57 > 0:44:03other party was about. In practice we have two parties that are only
0:44:03 > 0:44:08appealing to the core constituents. That is the job.Everyone of us is
0:44:08 > 0:44:12there to represent the entire Northern Irish community, investing
0:44:12 > 0:44:16in health, education and our economy. The fact we have a deadlock
0:44:16 > 0:44:19is not just around the content of how we deal with Bangladesh is but
0:44:19 > 0:44:22the presentation of that shows that people are putting that one issue on
0:44:22 > 0:44:26a pedestal above acting responsibly in the interests of the entire
0:44:26 > 0:44:34community and we have lost all sense of proportionality.There is no
0:44:34 > 0:44:36groundswell of pressure coming on health cuts, an education cuts from
0:44:36 > 0:44:39ordinary men and women in the state telling you do must get back to
0:44:39 > 0:44:44devolution around the Executive table and sort it out. In fact,
0:44:44 > 0:44:46there is silence. People on the areas and writing newspaper reports
0:44:46 > 0:44:51have said this is not good, we are all suffering but that is about as
0:44:51 > 0:44:56far as it goes.I did not accept that in the sense that anyone it
0:44:56 > 0:44:59Speed two tells me that we should be back in there, doing our jobs,
0:44:59 > 0:45:03earning our beaches and legislating and I do not think that is the
0:45:03 > 0:45:06preserve of the three smaller parties, I think that message has
0:45:06 > 0:45:09been said but I do accept that people are not feeling it in the
0:45:09 > 0:45:13pocket, it has not got to the crunch point. But as you start to see
0:45:13 > 0:45:16longer waiting lists and the cutbacks and the schools taking
0:45:16 > 0:45:21effect whenever you have to start increasing class sizes, looking at
0:45:21 > 0:45:26merging schools, Windows problems get through, people will look at...
0:45:26 > 0:45:30Those issues are already happening. But they have not got to the
0:45:30 > 0:45:33crescendo where we are making a massive impact and people are
0:45:33 > 0:45:41saying, we are at crisis point only see things changing.People
0:45:41 > 0:45:44supporting the DUP will say that they will not concede on the Irish
0:45:44 > 0:45:47Language Act and Sinn Fein will not settle for anything less.There has
0:45:47 > 0:45:52been progress in the negotiations on that over the last seven months. But
0:45:52 > 0:45:56we are not told what that progress so we cannot comment on it. If there
0:45:56 > 0:46:00has been progress, it must be put on the table because aside from the
0:46:00 > 0:46:02media and the smaller political parties, the public are not finding
0:46:02 > 0:46:07out what is happening in the name and all parties in the election in
0:46:07 > 0:46:15March were voted in on a mandate to deliver devolution and that is what
0:46:15 > 0:46:18the people of asked for and we must deliver on that.Steve Aiken I know
0:46:18 > 0:46:20you don't like the references of James Brokenshire but he has talked
0:46:20 > 0:46:25about this glide path to greater Westminster intervention, is that a
0:46:25 > 0:46:31lighter version of direct rule or is that proper direct rule? Will be
0:46:31 > 0:46:37limp along into the talks continue? We are already heading towards
0:46:37 > 0:46:42direct rule, that is clear, whether it is light, heart, whatever, we are
0:46:42 > 0:46:45steadily moving in that direction and once the budget has been passed
0:46:45 > 0:46:49and we see with the DUP money is going to be allocated and what it
0:46:49 > 0:46:52goes into, the next thing we will see is where his ministers from the
0:46:52 > 0:46:58Northern Irish others being given rules to be able to move that on and
0:46:58 > 0:47:01we will see that we are heading down that direction, we are very much in
0:47:01 > 0:47:04the final stages, I believe.You think that is the end of Stormont,
0:47:04 > 0:47:07you will be told thank you for your contribution, we do not need you as
0:47:07 > 0:47:13an MLA any more? Presumably that cannot continue indefinitely.I
0:47:13 > 0:47:18cannot see that, we are in our final stages. Here is the reality. In
0:47:18 > 0:47:21Northern Ireland, a quarter of the electorate voted for Sinn Fein, a
0:47:21 > 0:47:25quarter voted for the DUP, a quarter did not fool and a quarter voted for
0:47:25 > 0:47:39the other parties.We have one quarter of the electorate and
0:47:39 > 0:47:42controlling where we are going to and what we're doing, that cannot be
0:47:42 > 0:47:44right.I do not think Sinn Fein would accept that reality. Maybe if
0:47:44 > 0:47:47they were present and the DUP were president -- present we could ask
0:47:47 > 0:47:51them, but they are not here once again.There are ways that we can
0:47:51 > 0:47:56avoid the direct rule situation. Either the DUP and Sinn Fein
0:47:56 > 0:48:01approach this with greater transparency and stop blocking
0:48:01 > 0:48:06progress or going to fool on direct rule. We can reform the structures
0:48:06 > 0:48:14of the institutions are musk and we must come together and talk about
0:48:14 > 0:48:21that. All the issues that are holding things up whether that be
0:48:21 > 0:48:23language, equal marriage, issues around abortion, human rights and
0:48:23 > 0:48:27equality issues should be debated on the Assembly floor.If it is as
0:48:27 > 0:48:30simple as that by two Sinn Fein and the DUP not agree on that and move
0:48:30 > 0:48:36on? The point is, it is not that simple.They want to control things
0:48:36 > 0:48:43themselves. Then an authority anyway. Let us address this and
0:48:43 > 0:48:48afflict the democratic wishes of the people of Northern Ireland.At like
0:48:48 > 0:48:53to ask you about tomorrow. Are you sending a party delegation tomorrow
0:48:53 > 0:48:58to meet Colin McGrath?Our party has been ready at every stage, we are at
0:48:58 > 0:49:02Stormont most Mondays and Tuesdays. We will be there tomorrow.Do you
0:49:02 > 0:49:06think you will have a meeting with the Secretary of State tomorrow?We
0:49:06 > 0:49:11have not been asked but if so, we will be the present to speak to him.
0:49:11 > 0:49:17We had a meeting with him on Thursday. What did he say? Not an
0:49:17 > 0:49:21awful lot, typical of this process. You get much talk and headlines but
0:49:21 > 0:49:27no details.Did he ask for your ideas?We provided some ideas and
0:49:27 > 0:49:30had a conversation but we do not know the content of the negotiations
0:49:30 > 0:49:34and if you do not know the content you cannot comment on that.Do you
0:49:34 > 0:49:38expect to meet the Secretary of State to say this process?I will be
0:49:38 > 0:49:42at Stormont tomorrow but we might get a phone call at 3:30pm telling
0:49:42 > 0:49:46us can we see him at four o'clock and we will talk about analogies and
0:49:46 > 0:49:52all sorts of things and gripe at... We picked up the phone all the time.
0:49:52 > 0:49:57Tomorrow is the deadline! Mark, we have been talking all the time for
0:49:57 > 0:50:02the last nine months and said we must move on. Let us look at
0:50:02 > 0:50:06something different, let us look at the voluntary coalition, let us move
0:50:06 > 0:50:10on from where we are. You think that is the answer? Cannot be any worse
0:50:10 > 0:50:19than this!I do not see the DUP Sinn Fein giving in to a voluntary
0:50:19 > 0:50:22coalition.Surely that flies in the face of everything you have stood
0:50:22 > 0:50:26for at the time of the Good Friday Agreement?I want to see all of the
0:50:26 > 0:50:29eligible party sitting around a table, taking the seat and
0:50:29 > 0:50:33delivering for the people of Northern Ireland, as elected, that
0:50:33 > 0:50:37is what we want.Stephen Farry, if there is no solution tomorrow or
0:50:37 > 0:50:42immediately thereafter, and it looks like direct rule has been imposed
0:50:42 > 0:50:46once more, that is the end of Stormont, is it? Will you still
0:50:46 > 0:50:52remain an MLA?I do not know and those decisions that will have to be
0:50:52 > 0:50:55taken but I am clear that before we get to direct rule we have other
0:50:55 > 0:50:59options. We have been talking to the secretary of state for the past he
0:50:59 > 0:51:05beat as have other parties. We are trying to open this process up and
0:51:05 > 0:51:09look at other options before we lose sight of devolution.Thank you very
0:51:09 > 0:51:13much, gentlemen. We will watch with interest.
0:51:13 > 0:51:16Let's hear what my guests of the day - Chris Donnelly
0:51:16 > 0:51:18and Felicity Huston - make of that.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21Felicity, are people being let down by the inability of the two main
0:51:21 > 0:51:22parties to reach a deal?
0:51:22 > 0:51:24I think people have given up expecting any agreement. I think we
0:51:24 > 0:51:28have entered a state of this tournament, everyone has abandoned
0:51:28 > 0:51:33all hope. I do not know how many times I have been seeing this on
0:51:33 > 0:51:36here, we getting nowhere and everyone has given up.We are told
0:51:36 > 0:51:41tomorrow is the absolute deadline, do you believe that?The Secretary
0:51:41 > 0:51:45of State is always on the verge of taking a stand but he goes on and
0:51:45 > 0:51:50on.Will it get past tomorrow?I would confidently expects all, that
0:51:50 > 0:52:01has happened time and again so far. I do not think that he wants to put
0:52:01 > 0:52:05things in place, like the old fashion secretary Northern Ireland.
0:52:05 > 0:52:10Some people have said they will have been let down by the politicians,
0:52:10 > 0:52:12others have said this is exactly what was voted for. This is
0:52:12 > 0:52:20democracy.What we heard earlier prior to Felicity talking and the
0:52:20 > 0:52:23three representatives, we heard the frustration of the three minority
0:52:23 > 0:52:26parties, we have never been as politically marginalised as they are
0:52:26 > 0:52:32at the moment, they are outside the process and this is about the Irish
0:52:32 > 0:52:38government, the British government and DUP and Sinn Fein. I know that
0:52:38 > 0:52:41Steve Aiken was focusing on Gerry Adams but I think this is a red
0:52:41 > 0:52:45herring, sources I have heard inside Sinn Fein have all said the same
0:52:45 > 0:52:47thing, it is about implementation, prior agreements about the Irish
0:52:47 > 0:52:53Language Act, that was referenced in the St Andrews Agreement, and I
0:52:53 > 0:52:59cannot see any movement until there is changes in that process. The
0:52:59 > 0:53:02legislative process will have to put into place on direct rule so that
0:53:02 > 0:53:06the budget can be brought forward but the talks, they will have to be
0:53:06 > 0:53:10another round that focuses more specifically on those crunch issues.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13You know that there were reports in the public domain one week ago that
0:53:13 > 0:53:18a deal had been done and the senior Sinn Fein figures have found
0:53:18 > 0:53:21something they could sign up to but that Gerry Adams had pulled the rug
0:53:21 > 0:53:24from under their feet. You either believe that or not, but do you give
0:53:24 > 0:53:30any credence?I do not, although sources I have spoken to within Sinn
0:53:30 > 0:53:35Fein, whether in the north or the South have said the same thing. We
0:53:35 > 0:53:39saw this previously with Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams, the talk
0:53:39 > 0:53:43suggested that the big bad Wolf, Gerry Adams, comes from Dublin. He
0:53:43 > 0:53:46does not have to arrive in the building to change things, so I do
0:53:46 > 0:53:50not give much credence to that. I think that Sinn Fein has been with
0:53:50 > 0:53:55one voice on this and know that electro and they have a mandate to
0:53:55 > 0:53:58do that.Felicity, finally, what do you think that politicians should
0:53:58 > 0:54:02say to James Brokenshire if they get a phone call to meet him tomorrow?
0:54:02 > 0:54:06Yes, please, but let us be sensible, put everyone in the room, openly
0:54:06 > 0:54:10discuss what has been agreed and as the gentlemen of the have said, the
0:54:10 > 0:54:17public has a right to know, we pay the salaries, we ought to know what
0:54:17 > 0:54:20they are talking about.OK, thank you both for the moment.
0:54:20 > 0:54:23Time now for a look back at the political week in 60 Seconds,
0:54:23 > 0:54:27with Gareth Gordon.
0:54:27 > 0:54:31Sinn Fein was fighting on two microns in Dublin as a Gerry Adams
0:54:31 > 0:54:35took on the Taoiseach.This stubborn elements are being humoured by the
0:54:35 > 0:54:38British government and denying citizens their rights. And you are
0:54:38 > 0:54:42tolerating that.This does not sound to me like the language of someone
0:54:42 > 0:54:47who is trying to read the party into an agreement.In Belfast that seems
0:54:47 > 0:54:50we were witnessing the endgame of the Stormont talks.I think there
0:54:50 > 0:54:53has been progress but that clearly has not been sufficient progress or
0:54:53 > 0:54:58else we would be back in the Executive.No deal, you do not think
0:54:58 > 0:55:02your rabbit can be pulled out of a hat?The Miz to be had from which to
0:55:02 > 0:55:09take the rabbit from.Abortion legislation... There was a row over
0:55:09 > 0:55:13the use of ministerial cars by civil servants.These are official
0:55:13 > 0:55:18government vehicles and it is important that they make good use of
0:55:18 > 0:55:23those.At Westminster the search was on to find the top dog of politics
0:55:23 > 0:55:28but closer to home, one which showed its owner who was boss.Would you
0:55:28 > 0:55:36like a biscuit? She is impossible to live with!
0:55:36 > 0:55:37Gareth Gordon reporting.
0:55:37 > 0:55:39Politicians here must invest in areas around the peace walls
0:55:39 > 0:55:42if they are ever to come down - that's one of the key findings
0:55:42 > 0:55:45of a survey carried out among people living in their shadow.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48The Peace Walls Programme found that fear remains a key issue
0:55:48 > 0:55:51for residents but that many want to see the walls
0:55:51 > 0:55:52removed in the long term.
0:55:52 > 0:55:54The survey was published by the International Fund
0:55:54 > 0:55:57for Ireland and its chairman, Dr Adrian Johnston, is with me now.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00Thank you very much indeed for coming to join us today. A
0:56:00 > 0:56:03significant piece of work and we only have a short time to look at
0:56:03 > 0:56:07some of the issues. Given the wider political challenges that we face at
0:56:07 > 0:56:10the moment and we have just discussed this in detail, how Big
0:56:10 > 0:56:18the challenges it for you to get our politicians to focus on this
0:56:18 > 0:56:21important issue?I think it has been a challenge over the past two years,
0:56:21 > 0:56:23getting people to speak about this issue and we have seen from the
0:56:23 > 0:56:25survey results that many of respondents within it have mentioned
0:56:25 > 0:56:29that there was a lack or minimal political engagement at the
0:56:29 > 0:56:32grassroots level with the piece was activity which did not reflect what
0:56:32 > 0:56:36we expected from the programme of government commitments. We must
0:56:36 > 0:56:42ensure that going forward that there is a focus brought very much to the
0:56:42 > 0:56:45fore around this piece while. The legacy of what has occurred about
0:56:45 > 0:56:49the peace Wall is not about safety concerns, it is about economic
0:56:49 > 0:56:53Council to regeneration within those areas and we can see from the super
0:56:53 > 0:56:58output area is that we looked at Varadkar survey that there are huge
0:56:58 > 0:57:01economic obligations with respect to jobs, employment, mental and
0:57:01 > 0:57:03physical health within those areas and those legacy issues have not
0:57:03 > 0:57:09been dealt with in those areas.You have said that the key to getting
0:57:09 > 0:57:15things sorted is in those key areas, that is less likely in the case of a
0:57:15 > 0:57:17devolved government and it does not look like devolution will be
0:57:17 > 0:57:21restored in the short-term, how do you square that circle?As we move
0:57:21 > 0:57:24forward there will be ministers and departments responsible for economic
0:57:24 > 0:57:27regeneration of those areas for the issues we have talked about and
0:57:27 > 0:57:31going forward we would ask that anyone, whoever is responsible,
0:57:31 > 0:57:36we're not too -- we're not sure who is currently responsible and who
0:57:36 > 0:57:39will be responsible in the future, but they must look at that and we
0:57:39 > 0:57:42would hope that the peace walls would be removed. The communities
0:57:42 > 0:57:46have not been engaged, their voices have not been heard, those living
0:57:46 > 0:57:49around that area are unsure of what the future will hold for them and we
0:57:49 > 0:57:53must ensure they are part of that process. That ring fenced divorces
0:57:53 > 0:58:00will also be put in place. -- ring fenced resources.We had that
0:58:00 > 0:58:03Bunting devolved government in the past but we have not had Stormont
0:58:03 > 0:58:06for over one year now. Is that target becoming much more difficult
0:58:06 > 0:58:10to achieve in your view?It is more difficult but it is difficult to
0:58:10 > 0:58:14achieve even when it was announced because there was no road map put in
0:58:14 > 0:58:18place at that would be achieved. Engaging with communities and
0:58:18 > 0:58:22understanding their needs, whether it is safety, education, employment,
0:58:22 > 0:58:25none of those aspects are taken into consideration when that time and was
0:58:25 > 0:58:29put in place, there is no strategic plan. Four years into that
0:58:29 > 0:58:33communities deserve a plan and to be engaged in this process to see what
0:58:33 > 0:58:36the future will hold for them. Whenever you speak to people on the
0:58:36 > 0:58:43ground and living in the shadow of the peace walls, they have said that
0:58:43 > 0:58:45ultimately, if not now, perhaps in their children or grandchildren'
0:58:45 > 0:58:48time, they would like the balls to be removed, that is passed 2023, why
0:58:48 > 0:58:53are there more than 100 piece was in place 20 years after the signing of
0:58:53 > 0:59:00the Good Friday Agreement?One out of the tomb of respondents believe
0:59:00 > 0:59:05that it is about securing safety and 80% of those surveyed have said they
0:59:05 > 0:59:08feel safer than the environment. It is about security and ensuring the
0:59:08 > 0:59:15security fears are eradicated and we have to...Is it a substantial
0:59:15 > 0:59:18issue? Is providing security or is it a comfort blanket that people are
0:59:18 > 0:59:24unhappy about letting go of?We have seen some success in our piece was
0:59:24 > 0:59:27programme and they should rhetoric that that programme was about having
0:59:27 > 0:59:35conversations, allowing communities that have conversations about the
0:59:35 > 0:59:37future and the area of the peace walls, not necessarily about the
0:59:37 > 0:59:40removal. Discussions have moved on to not just the removal but the
0:59:40 > 0:59:43reimaging and reduction of the peace wall and we have looked at physical
0:59:43 > 0:59:46transformation is happening in those areas. There's the possibility and
0:59:46 > 0:59:51as we went through those some areas that decide and in fact, the war was
0:59:51 > 0:59:56not there for security reasons, the will was there as a safety blanket.
0:59:56 > 1:00:01Then they had the problem of what we they do have the wall was removed
1:00:01 > 1:00:06and what is the incentive to do that? That comes down to economic
1:00:06 > 1:00:08regeneration, shared spaces, opportunities for young people,
1:00:08 > 1:00:12better outcomes, that is what this conversations are about and that is
1:00:12 > 1:00:16why it is imperative that we put resources around this, ring fencing
1:00:16 > 1:00:21long-term resources and political support to ensure that the road map
1:00:21 > 1:00:24can be put in place.We are not where you would like to be at the
1:00:24 > 1:00:28moment but are you optimistic that we can get to the promised land?
1:00:28 > 1:00:32Very much so. As we look at the survey results, there was big
1:00:32 > 1:00:34conversations, we want to see how those conversations have been
1:00:34 > 1:00:40evolving and over 50% of participants in our survey have had
1:00:40 > 1:00:44crossed uniquely good relations and good communications with people from
1:00:44 > 1:00:51different communities. 66% of those respondents believe that not doing
1:00:51 > 1:00:57anything with the wall will be detrimental to committee
1:00:57 > 1:00:59communications and others have said that any engagement they have had
1:00:59 > 1:01:03has been positive. That is good for us to hear that we can get to
1:01:03 > 1:01:06discussions about the removal of the walls.Very interesting, thank you
1:01:06 > 1:01:08for joining us.
1:01:08 > 1:01:10And let's have a final word with Chris and Felicity.
1:01:10 > 1:01:13What's the key to moving this issue forward?
1:01:13 > 1:01:18The piece was simply are the most visible manifestation of the
1:01:18 > 1:01:24dividing lines in our society. What you heard from Doctor Adrian
1:01:24 > 1:01:27Johnston was that people do feel an element of security with those, so
1:01:27 > 1:01:32as they are removed, there must be an ambitious programme that is the
1:01:32 > 1:01:35regulation and enforcement, akin to the Parades Commission, so that the
1:01:35 > 1:01:38neutral spaces that are put in place of the walls can be effectively
1:01:38 > 1:01:42policed and that those people feel secure, not just from physical
1:01:42 > 1:01:49attack, but we know when you look at the other mixed residential
1:01:49 > 1:01:52communities, when others arrive and try to claim territory by putting up
1:01:52 > 1:01:55flags, that can add a poison dimension to the hopes of people who
1:01:55 > 1:01:58want to live in mixed communities. Felicity, a brief thought from you?
1:01:58 > 1:02:04It is very sad that after 20 years we are still present. More have been
1:02:04 > 1:02:06put up since the Good Friday Agreement and people become used to
1:02:06 > 1:02:09them, they become part of the College of how you live and probably
1:02:09 > 1:02:13if you live there you do not think about them, that is what is present
1:02:13 > 1:02:16and that the real problem.OK, thank you
1:02:16 > 1:02:17Ellie Reeves and Bob Blackman.
1:02:17 > 1:02:26With that, it's back to Sarah.
1:02:26 > 1:02:29Now, the much anticipated EU Withdrawal Bill,
1:02:29 > 1:02:32which will transfer EU law into UK law in preparation for Brexit,
1:02:32 > 1:02:37is expected to be debated by MPs later next month.
1:02:37 > 1:02:40Critics have called it a "power grab" as it introduces so-called
1:02:40 > 1:02:42Henry VIII powers for Whitehall to amend some laws without
1:02:42 > 1:02:46consulting parliament, and it faces fierce resistance
1:02:46 > 1:02:50from opposition parties as well as many on the government's
1:02:50 > 1:02:55own backbenches, with 300 amendments and 54 new clauses tabled on it.
1:02:55 > 1:02:58We're joined now by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry who has been a strong
1:02:58 > 1:03:02critic of the legislation.
1:03:02 > 1:03:07Thank you very much for joining us. Before we talk about the withdrawal
1:03:07 > 1:03:12bill, I would like to bring up with you that the Prime Minister has just
1:03:12 > 1:03:16sent a letter to the Commons Speaker John Bercow asking for an
1:03:16 > 1:03:20independent body to be established to investigate claims of sexual
1:03:20 > 1:03:25harassment in Parliament. What are your thoughts on that?A very good
1:03:25 > 1:03:29idea, sounds like a great deal of common sense. I had already this
1:03:29 > 1:03:32morning sent a request to the speaker asking for an urgent
1:03:32 > 1:03:36statement from the Leader of the House as to what could now be done
1:03:36 > 1:03:42to make sure that any complaints actually against anybody working in
1:03:42 > 1:03:45Parliament, to extend the protections that workers throughout
1:03:45 > 1:03:50the rest of businesses and in other workplaces have, they should now be
1:03:50 > 1:03:53extended into Parliament and asking for an urgent statement from the
1:03:53 > 1:04:01leader. Clearly the PM is well onto this and it is a good idea. We have
1:04:01 > 1:04:02to make sure everybody who works in Parliament enjoys exactly the same
1:04:02 > 1:04:02protections as
1:04:03 > 1:04:07protections as other workers, so I welcome this.This should maybe have
1:04:07 > 1:04:12happened a long time ago. We hear stories of harassment that has been
1:04:12 > 1:04:15going on for decades, but until now it has been difficult to work out
1:04:15 > 1:04:21who you could complain to about it. It is my understanding that my Chief
1:04:21 > 1:04:25Whip and the previous deputy Chief Whip, and Milton, shared that view
1:04:25 > 1:04:30and have shared that view for some time but found it difficult to get
1:04:30 > 1:04:34all the agreement necessary. Anyway, we are where we are and we are
1:04:34 > 1:04:46making that progress, but
1:04:47 > 1:04:49my Chief Whip and the previous deputy Chief Whip wanted this done
1:04:49 > 1:04:52some time ago.That is an interesting point. Let's move on to
1:04:52 > 1:04:54the much anticipated EU withdrawal bill which will finally be debated.
1:04:54 > 1:04:56You have put your name to an amendment which is calling for a
1:04:56 > 1:04:59vote on the final agreement in essence, do you really believe that
1:04:59 > 1:05:03that will be a meaningful both offered to the Commons?Yes, if you
1:05:03 > 1:05:08look at the terms of the amendment, it would deliver exactly that. It
1:05:08 > 1:05:13would give members of Parliament the opportunity to debated and voted on
1:05:13 > 1:05:17it. It would be an effective piece of legislation and would go through
1:05:17 > 1:05:22both houses and should be done. One of the problems with this process is
1:05:22 > 1:05:26that Parliament has been excluded from the sort of debate and
1:05:26 > 1:05:31decisions that would have enabled the government to move forward in
1:05:31 > 1:05:41progress and form a consensus so we get the very best Brexit deal.We
1:05:41 > 1:05:44have been excluded, that has been wrong in my view, but by the end we
1:05:44 > 1:05:47should not be excluded. The government have made it clear that
1:05:47 > 1:05:50whilst there may well be a boat if you win on this amendment, it will
1:05:50 > 1:05:54be a take it or leave it vote. This is a deal you should accept, or
1:05:54 > 1:06:01there will be no deal.If you look at the amendment we put forward
1:06:01 > 1:06:05there will be other alternatives. This is all hypothetical because we
1:06:05 > 1:06:08want a good deal and it is difficult to see that the government would not
1:06:08 > 1:06:14bring a good deal to the House in any event. But this is hypothetical,
1:06:14 > 1:06:19it would mean Parliament would say to government, go back and seek an
1:06:19 > 1:06:25extension as we know it is there in Article 50. It is perfectly possible
1:06:25 > 1:06:29with the agreement of the other members of the EU to seek an
1:06:29 > 1:06:33extension so we continue the negotiations and we get a deal that
1:06:33 > 1:06:37is good for our country. It keeps all options open and that is the
1:06:37 > 1:06:42most important thing.How many Conservative MPs really would take
1:06:42 > 1:06:47that option in those circumstances? It is only if you get enough votes
1:06:47 > 1:06:50that you would be able to ask the government to go back and
1:06:50 > 1:07:00re-negotiate.
1:07:04 > 1:07:07Have you for that?For give me, but you are jumping way down the line. I
1:07:07 > 1:07:09am talking about an amendment that keeps the options open. I am not
1:07:09 > 1:07:12speculating as to what would happen, I am not going there, it is far too
1:07:12 > 1:07:16speculative. Let's get this bill in good shape. The principle of this
1:07:16 > 1:07:22bill is right and we need to put into British domestic law existing
1:07:22 > 1:07:27EU laws and regulations into our substantive law. We all agree that
1:07:27 > 1:07:32must happen. It is the means by which we do it that causes problems
1:07:32 > 1:07:38and we have this argument and debate about what we call the endgame.I am
1:07:38 > 1:07:42sure we will talk about this many more times before we get to that
1:07:42 > 1:07:47vote. I will turn to our panel of political experts. Listening to the
1:07:47 > 1:07:53tone of what the remainders are trying to achieve with the EU
1:07:53 > 1:07:58withdrawal bill, will be achieved? You can hear that tussled there,
1:07:58 > 1:08:03they want the maximum space and room for Parliament to have a say. But
1:08:03 > 1:08:09they have to be careful. The reason is that clock is ticking and if you
1:08:09 > 1:08:15have a situation which may seem to be more interested in finding
1:08:15 > 1:08:19different things to object to and saying no to, it is not getting a
1:08:19 > 1:08:23good deal and it does not look good for the remainders in this argument
1:08:23 > 1:08:28and they will have to come through with their proposals. I do not mind
1:08:28 > 1:08:32Parliament saying it should have a big say, but what do you do if
1:08:32 > 1:08:38Parliament says this is not good enough? The government must simply
1:08:38 > 1:08:43say, I am sorry we have run out of time. The 27 will say they cannot be
1:08:43 > 1:08:48bothered to have another round either. They have to be strong, but
1:08:48 > 1:08:52realistic about what their role in this is.Do you think the people
1:08:52 > 1:08:57putting this amendment who say they want a binding vote in parliament
1:08:57 > 1:09:00are doing it because they think Parliament should have a say or
1:09:00 > 1:09:05because they want to obstruct it? They do not think people should have
1:09:05 > 1:09:10a say in the first place, they think people got it wrong, so they need
1:09:10 > 1:09:17more clever people than the voters to have final say.Or they believed
1:09:17 > 1:09:20taking back control means Parliament should have the final say.
1:09:20 > 1:09:23Parliament said they would like to give that decision back to the
1:09:23 > 1:09:29people. This is the issue. It seems to me that people like Anna Soubry
1:09:29 > 1:09:33are trying to delay of the transition period a bit longer.
1:09:33 > 1:09:38These negotiations will take as long as they have got. The EU will take
1:09:38 > 1:09:46it to the wire and if we do not get a decent deal, and one of the
1:09:46 > 1:09:49reasons is the level of incompetence on this government's part I have to
1:09:49 > 1:09:54say and the other one will be the people who want to remain
1:09:54 > 1:10:00undermining them. They undermined the government at every single stage
1:10:00 > 1:10:04and they undermine Britain's interests.It is the timing of all
1:10:04 > 1:10:07of this that is crucial and whether the government can get a deal in
1:10:07 > 1:10:13time.There will be a meaningful vote, whether it is an shined in
1:10:13 > 1:10:19legislation or not, there cannot be an historic development as big as
1:10:19 > 1:10:24this without Parliament having a meaningful vote. I meaningful,
1:10:24 > 1:10:28having the power to either stop it or endorse it. You cannot have a
1:10:28 > 1:10:31government doing something like this with no vote in the House of
1:10:31 > 1:10:38commons. When you say it will go to the last minute I completely agree,
1:10:38 > 1:10:43but last-minute in reality means next summer. It has got to get
1:10:43 > 1:10:46through the European Parliament and the Westminster Parliament and quite
1:10:46 > 1:10:53a few others as well.The trouble with invoking Parliament is if it is
1:10:53 > 1:10:58driven solely by remain, I would love to say what people in the
1:10:58 > 1:11:05league side think. I disagree with Julia, I do not think you could say
1:11:05 > 1:11:10people had their say and the terms with which we leave are left open
1:11:10 > 1:11:13and only the government should have a say in it, Parliament clearly
1:11:13 > 1:11:22should have a say in it.Do we want a good deal or not?It does not mean
1:11:22 > 1:11:27anything if you do not do it by next summer I suggest.Does that leave
1:11:27 > 1:11:31Parliament any room for changing the deal or is it simply take it or
1:11:31 > 1:11:36leave it?It will have to have that rule because it cannot simply be
1:11:36 > 1:11:40another of these binary votes were you accept the deal or no Deal.
1:11:40 > 1:11:46There has to be some space.How can a few MPs in the House of Commons
1:11:46 > 1:11:51change a deal that has been agreed by the member states?Because of the
1:11:51 > 1:11:57sequence, a huge if by the way, if they vote down the deal that the
1:11:57 > 1:12:00government has negotiated, the government will have to re-negotiate
1:12:00 > 1:12:04or there will have to be an election. This will be a moment of
1:12:04 > 1:12:07huge crisis, our government not getting through its much topped
1:12:07 > 1:12:16about...It is a mini Catalonia.I think it would be as big as
1:12:16 > 1:12:19Catalonia, but with the implication that there would have to be a
1:12:19 > 1:12:22practical change in the deal because if Parliament has not supported
1:12:22 > 1:12:28it...It is a remain fantasy that this deal can be put off and off
1:12:28 > 1:12:33until they get something that is as close to remaining as they can
1:12:33 > 1:12:38possibly get. I am very much for trying to get the best and avoiding
1:12:38 > 1:12:44the worst, but there is an unreality to that position if you keep trying
1:12:44 > 1:12:50to do it again and again, at some point people will want clarity.I
1:12:50 > 1:12:56labour putting forward a realistic proposition?I thought Hilary Benn
1:12:56 > 1:13:00was very realistic this morning, I wish he was more in the driving seat
1:13:00 > 1:13:05of Labour policy. He made clear where he disagreed and he made clear
1:13:05 > 1:13:08where he thought the negotiations had gone off track or were bogged
1:13:08 > 1:13:17down. I worry a bit about the Labour position being incoherent, but that
1:13:17 > 1:13:20is kept that way by the present leadership because as far as they
1:13:20 > 1:13:24are concerned the government is suffering enough, why should they
1:13:24 > 1:13:30have a position? Hilary Benn said we needed to have clarity about the
1:13:30 > 1:13:33timetable. It is like reading an insurance contract and finding the
1:13:33 > 1:13:36bit where you might get away with it. That is not a policy.
1:13:36 > 1:13:39That is not a policy.
1:13:39 > 1:13:40That's all for today.
1:13:40 > 1:13:43Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.
1:13:43 > 1:13:47Until then, bye bye.