:00:36. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:46. > :00:49.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:50. > :00:52.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:53. > :00:58.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:59. > :01:01.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:02. > :01:05.And in Northern Ireland - another They could be heading for electoral
:01:06. > :01:08.And in Northern Ireland - another week where the health service has
:01:09. > :01:11.been making the headlines. Is it crisis time for the politicians
:01:12. > :01:15.charged with looking after the system? Join me in half an hour.
:01:16. > :01:18.which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political
:01:19. > :01:24.move designed to silence his critics.
:01:25. > :01:28.And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the
:01:29. > :01:33.business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.
:01:34. > :01:37.But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest
:01:38. > :01:44.and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,
:01:45. > :01:50.Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:51. > :01:53.Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been
:01:54. > :01:56.unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the
:01:57. > :02:01.rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister
:02:02. > :02:07.spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the
:02:08. > :02:11.Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence
:02:12. > :02:15.campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when
:02:16. > :02:20.the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were
:02:21. > :02:22.going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that
:02:23. > :02:25.campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in
:02:26. > :02:36.Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.
:02:37. > :02:42.Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no
:02:43. > :02:50.campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have
:02:51. > :02:55.got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have
:02:56. > :03:00.got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we
:03:01. > :03:04.are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the
:03:05. > :03:08.possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think
:03:09. > :03:12.that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it
:03:13. > :03:16.against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a
:03:17. > :03:19.detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England,
:03:20. > :03:24.Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would
:03:25. > :03:27.not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the
:03:28. > :03:31.permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is
:03:32. > :03:35.such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with
:03:36. > :03:42.it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the
:03:43. > :03:46.force of argument is very much against those of us who want to
:03:47. > :03:50.remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the
:03:51. > :03:54.day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland, a
:03:55. > :03:58.deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is
:03:59. > :04:03.nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 20
:04:04. > :04:07.years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in
:04:08. > :04:10.Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the
:04:11. > :04:17.UK. That is perfectly plausible, isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is
:04:18. > :04:21.simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.
:04:22. > :04:25.What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials
:04:26. > :04:29.saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of
:04:30. > :04:35.England Wales, Northern Ireland, any more than it is in the interests of
:04:36. > :04:42.people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not
:04:43. > :04:49.change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?
:04:50. > :04:53.I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe
:04:54. > :04:57.Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish
:04:58. > :05:02.Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not
:05:03. > :05:06.sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from
:05:07. > :05:10.Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have
:05:11. > :05:14.not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the
:05:15. > :05:26.questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too
:05:27. > :05:29.negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found
:05:30. > :05:32.you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,
:05:33. > :05:37.isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the
:05:38. > :05:43.people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes,
:05:44. > :05:48.there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing
:05:49. > :05:55.a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which
:05:56. > :05:58.actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come
:05:59. > :06:01.September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to
:06:02. > :06:06.say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of
:06:07. > :06:12.the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll
:06:13. > :06:18.said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the
:06:19. > :06:22.don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you
:06:23. > :06:27.yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act
:06:28. > :06:33.together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,
:06:34. > :06:36.to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists
:06:37. > :06:40.could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the
:06:41. > :06:45.United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the
:06:46. > :06:49.polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,
:06:50. > :07:05.they think this will not happen. It can happen. I have got to tell
:07:06. > :07:07.everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an
:07:08. > :07:09.enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their
:07:10. > :07:11.disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in
:07:12. > :07:16.football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what
:07:17. > :07:21.is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in
:07:22. > :07:28.place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.
:07:29. > :07:34.Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know
:07:35. > :07:41.what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to
:07:42. > :07:45.blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there
:07:46. > :07:52.will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.
:07:53. > :07:56.But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the
:07:57. > :08:00.deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls
:08:01. > :08:03.which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite
:08:04. > :08:08.rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down
:08:09. > :08:12.the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year, not
:08:13. > :08:16.just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy
:08:17. > :08:20.negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving
:08:21. > :08:24.places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen
:08:25. > :08:28.then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts
:08:29. > :08:32.about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising
:08:33. > :08:36.that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow
:08:37. > :08:42.Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary
:08:43. > :08:46.union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in
:08:47. > :08:50.a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear
:08:51. > :08:55.submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,
:08:56. > :08:59.probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think
:09:00. > :09:03.whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If
:09:04. > :09:08.the Scots vote for independence, of course a deal will be done about the
:09:09. > :09:11.currency because it is not in London's interests to have a
:09:12. > :09:15.rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not
:09:16. > :09:26.done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is
:09:27. > :09:29.different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on
:09:30. > :09:33.the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without
:09:34. > :09:38.any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if
:09:39. > :09:43.the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except
:09:44. > :09:48.it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go
:09:49. > :09:52.down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the
:09:53. > :09:55.financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would
:09:56. > :09:59.rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary
:10:00. > :10:02.of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much
:10:03. > :10:06.money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major
:10:07. > :10:10.parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is
:10:11. > :10:14.bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think
:10:15. > :10:18.that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex
:10:19. > :10:22.Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big
:10:23. > :10:29.establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my
:10:30. > :10:37.football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no
:10:38. > :10:41.vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left
:10:42. > :10:46.which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex
:10:47. > :10:53.Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding
:10:54. > :10:56.from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being
:10:57. > :10:59.incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not
:11:00. > :11:03.want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of
:11:04. > :11:06.million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a
:11:07. > :11:10.bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's
:11:11. > :11:17.very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.
:11:18. > :11:25.High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six
:11:26. > :11:32.energy companies account for 95% of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem
:11:33. > :11:37.said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price
:11:38. > :11:40.rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets
:11:41. > :11:44.authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken
:11:45. > :11:49.up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica
:11:50. > :11:52.made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if
:11:53. > :11:57.you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare
:11:58. > :12:01.margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a
:12:02. > :12:08.surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to
:12:09. > :12:12.historically low levels in 2016, according to Ofgem. Normally at
:12:13. > :12:18.around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that
:12:19. > :12:22.could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light
:12:23. > :12:28.switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me
:12:29. > :12:35.now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak
:12:36. > :12:40.winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2%
:12:41. > :12:46.next winter or the winter after. We will keep the lights on, that is for
:12:47. > :12:50.clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low.
:12:51. > :12:54.The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day
:12:55. > :13:02.one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been 8
:13:03. > :13:06.billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now
:13:07. > :13:11.heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have
:13:12. > :13:16.been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,
:13:17. > :13:19.we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are
:13:20. > :13:24.showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done
:13:25. > :13:29.enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate
:13:30. > :13:33.huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline
:13:34. > :13:37.investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.
:13:38. > :13:42.None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter
:13:43. > :13:49.or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,
:13:50. > :13:57.or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.
:13:58. > :14:01.It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing
:14:02. > :14:05.anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are
:14:06. > :14:09.able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are
:14:10. > :14:16.connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we
:14:17. > :14:21.get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.
:14:22. > :14:28.You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last
:14:29. > :14:33.July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would
:14:34. > :14:39.not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on
:14:40. > :14:43.schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a
:14:44. > :14:51.single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the
:14:52. > :14:56.ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do
:14:57. > :15:00.an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of
:15:01. > :15:03.interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on.
:15:04. > :15:07.There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that
:15:08. > :15:11.can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take
:15:12. > :15:16.and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term.
:15:17. > :15:32.We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision
:15:33. > :15:34.will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North
:15:35. > :15:37.America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed
:15:38. > :15:46.plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a
:15:47. > :15:53.problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from
:15:54. > :15:56.2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be
:15:57. > :16:01.so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was
:16:02. > :16:04.cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've
:16:05. > :16:09.known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of
:16:10. > :16:11.their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to
:16:12. > :16:19.increase the rate of investment, but we... That shows clearly you are
:16:20. > :16:23.closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you
:16:24. > :16:27.have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are
:16:28. > :16:31.coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased
:16:32. > :16:33.the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under
:16:34. > :16:38.the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the
:16:39. > :16:46.beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are
:16:47. > :16:50.historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a
:16:51. > :16:56.huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins
:16:57. > :17:02.between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is
:17:03. > :17:05.costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People
:17:06. > :17:09.have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a
:17:10. > :17:13.short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a
:17:14. > :17:15.long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between
:17:16. > :17:39.nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between
:17:40. > :17:46.on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has
:17:47. > :17:55.increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the
:17:56. > :17:59.report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been
:18:00. > :18:03.working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we
:18:04. > :18:08.have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on
:18:09. > :18:14.if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but
:18:15. > :18:18.demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to
:18:19. > :18:22.off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,
:18:23. > :18:25.and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the
:18:26. > :18:30.Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks
:18:31. > :18:33.for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around
:18:34. > :18:39.for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to
:18:40. > :18:42.expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into,
:18:43. > :18:49.haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,
:18:50. > :18:54.dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at
:18:55. > :19:05.the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range
:19:06. > :19:09.of power companies who are building a new power station and want to
:19:10. > :19:13.build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100
:19:14. > :19:17.billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore
:19:18. > :19:21.capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the
:19:22. > :19:26.Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to
:19:27. > :19:30.expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We
:19:31. > :19:36.have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is
:19:37. > :19:41.happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say
:19:42. > :19:45.it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we
:19:46. > :19:49.have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at
:19:50. > :19:53.independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to
:19:54. > :19:57.invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore
:19:58. > :20:00.wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only
:20:01. > :20:05.countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker
:20:06. > :20:09.picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an
:20:10. > :20:15.investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.
:20:16. > :20:20.Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,
:20:21. > :20:23.only one started under your watch for the others were done under
:20:24. > :20:28.Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled
:20:29. > :20:30.back from further investment including new offshore wind
:20:31. > :20:36.investment and none of what you're talking about will come before 2020
:20:37. > :20:40.anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,
:20:41. > :20:44.the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I
:20:45. > :20:50.capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2020,
:20:51. > :20:54.so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have
:20:55. > :20:59.no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.
:21:00. > :21:03.Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones
:21:04. > :21:08.you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a
:21:09. > :21:12.short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan,
:21:13. > :21:16.auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed
:21:17. > :21:21.plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long-term
:21:22. > :21:25.plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be
:21:26. > :21:30.built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's
:21:31. > :21:34.a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more
:21:35. > :21:38.expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap
:21:39. > :21:44.energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices
:21:45. > :21:51.is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You
:21:52. > :22:01.have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.
:22:02. > :22:11.All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low
:22:12. > :22:15.Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the
:22:16. > :22:19.last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys
:22:20. > :22:23.prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the
:22:24. > :22:27.Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the
:22:28. > :22:31.time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas
:22:32. > :22:34.could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by
:22:35. > :22:40.the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per
:22:41. > :22:49.megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.
:22:50. > :22:52.Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,
:22:53. > :22:57.Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is
:22:58. > :23:00.an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power
:23:01. > :23:05.plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices
:23:06. > :23:11.except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations
:23:12. > :23:14.paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper
:23:15. > :23:20.carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's
:23:21. > :23:24.very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the
:23:25. > :23:28.pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in
:23:29. > :23:33.May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.
:23:34. > :23:38.You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure
:23:39. > :23:44.is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the
:23:45. > :23:52.first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.
:23:53. > :23:58.If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their
:23:59. > :24:04.partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about
:24:05. > :24:09.lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than
:24:10. > :24:14.the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are
:24:15. > :24:19.targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that
:24:20. > :24:24.that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say
:24:25. > :24:28.that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few
:24:29. > :24:33.years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a
:24:34. > :24:38.single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That's
:24:39. > :24:43.what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in
:24:44. > :24:46.technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in
:24:47. > :24:55.mobile phones to start off with, they were expensive, and they were
:24:56. > :25:00.clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put
:25:01. > :25:04.the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on
:25:05. > :25:10.investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:11. > :25:14.guarantee them a return of 10% - 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't
:25:15. > :25:19.that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two
:25:20. > :25:23.separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply
:25:24. > :25:28.retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale
:25:29. > :25:32.side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are
:25:33. > :25:38.comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to
:25:39. > :25:41.do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,
:25:42. > :25:49.there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we
:25:50. > :25:54.haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever
:25:55. > :25:58.happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the
:25:59. > :26:02.verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going
:26:03. > :26:04.nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press
:26:05. > :26:07.officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains
:26:08. > :26:11.some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had
:26:12. > :26:14.a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats
:26:15. > :26:17.in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest
:26:18. > :26:20.party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite
:26:21. > :26:32.concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote
:26:33. > :26:35.increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as
:26:36. > :26:38.anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and
:26:39. > :26:43.forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is
:26:44. > :26:45.that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,
:26:46. > :26:56.electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.
:26:57. > :26:59.For a number of years they were performing better than the UK
:27:00. > :27:03.Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.
:27:04. > :27:05.The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other
:27:06. > :27:10.groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't
:27:11. > :27:13.go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party
:27:14. > :27:19.was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have
:27:20. > :27:22.known that at the outset. In 2006 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won
:27:23. > :27:25.12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour
:27:26. > :27:34.council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing
:27:35. > :27:37.concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different
:27:38. > :27:41.nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over
:27:42. > :27:47.everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I
:27:48. > :27:53.would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here.
:27:54. > :27:57.When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a
:27:58. > :28:02.second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find
:28:03. > :28:05.non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even
:28:06. > :28:10.though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white
:28:11. > :28:14.working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent,
:28:15. > :28:21.everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On
:28:22. > :28:26.behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,
:28:27. > :28:30.that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local
:28:31. > :28:38.Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we
:28:39. > :28:41.could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the
:28:42. > :28:44.council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.
:28:45. > :28:48.But what beat the BNP here in 2010 was a mobilisation of the Labour
:28:49. > :28:52.vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the
:28:53. > :29:00.same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years
:29:01. > :29:04.ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing
:29:05. > :29:08.around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and
:29:09. > :29:12.stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now
:29:13. > :29:17.it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.
:29:18. > :29:22.If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not
:29:23. > :29:26.in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.
:29:27. > :29:30.I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say
:29:31. > :29:34.in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist
:29:35. > :29:39.but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of
:29:40. > :29:42.UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:43. > :29:51.party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is
:29:52. > :29:53.closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose
:29:54. > :30:10.amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were
:30:11. > :30:14.thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his
:30:15. > :30:17.appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP,
:30:18. > :30:27.something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.
:30:28. > :30:33.This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John
:30:34. > :30:37.Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He
:30:38. > :30:40.went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some
:30:41. > :30:44.voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here
:30:45. > :30:52.has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins
:30:53. > :30:56.me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you
:30:57. > :31:02.had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on
:31:03. > :31:08.the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is
:31:09. > :31:12.very negative as I would expect. The party has faced a few problems. The
:31:13. > :31:19.main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country
:31:20. > :31:24.faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European
:31:25. > :31:34.elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were
:31:35. > :31:39.denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take
:31:40. > :31:44.place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer
:31:45. > :31:51.movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL
:31:52. > :31:58.is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not
:31:59. > :32:02.a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took
:32:03. > :32:08.a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this
:32:09. > :32:13.stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless
:32:14. > :32:16.promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on
:32:17. > :32:22.this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.
:32:23. > :32:27.Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will
:32:28. > :32:32.probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across
:32:33. > :32:38.Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I
:32:39. > :32:56.reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and
:32:57. > :33:01.Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are
:33:02. > :33:05.on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I
:33:06. > :33:10.was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party
:33:11. > :33:14.did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and
:33:15. > :33:17.Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was
:33:18. > :33:23.true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader
:33:24. > :33:29.who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy.
:33:30. > :33:35.No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is
:33:36. > :33:40.irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs
:33:41. > :33:46.and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the
:33:47. > :33:54.European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose
:33:55. > :34:00.seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far
:34:01. > :34:11.right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin
:34:12. > :34:16.appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is
:34:17. > :34:23.part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with
:34:24. > :34:27.them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am
:34:28. > :34:32.perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible
:34:33. > :34:36.reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when
:34:37. > :34:43.will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely
:34:44. > :34:51.for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and
:34:52. > :34:56.self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to
:34:57. > :35:02.Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in
:35:03. > :35:06.Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just
:35:07. > :35:12.an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is
:35:13. > :35:17.completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the
:35:18. > :35:22.polls, performance at elections, the problem with your leadership is you
:35:23. > :35:26.are now going the way of the National front, heading for
:35:27. > :35:31.oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the
:35:32. > :35:35.problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years
:35:36. > :35:41.ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not
:35:42. > :35:45.around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a
:35:46. > :35:49.prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.
:35:50. > :35:53.That will lead to huge problems. Only the British National Party are
:35:54. > :35:58.prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing
:35:59. > :36:03.this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how
:36:04. > :36:08.irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New
:36:09. > :36:13.Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would
:36:14. > :36:17.turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they
:36:18. > :36:21.put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of
:36:22. > :36:24.bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.
:36:25. > :36:26.You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:36:27. > :36:41.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Another week of
:36:42. > :36:44.headlines for hospitals here - 24 hour waits at the Royal's emergency
:36:45. > :36:49.department and an investigation into 11 deaths in the Northern Trust.
:36:50. > :36:52.So what is needed to resuscitate the health service? The chair of
:36:53. > :36:57.Stormont's Health Committee, Maeve McLaughlin, joins me to discuss the
:36:58. > :37:07.situation. Plus - from true blue to green. I would have said when I was
:37:08. > :37:10.younger I would have been a flag-waving unionist.
:37:11. > :37:13.We hear from the election hopefuls at the Green Party's weekend
:37:14. > :37:16.conference. And with their thoughts on all of that - academic Deirdre
:37:17. > :37:20.Heenan and newspaper editor Jim Flanagan.
:37:21. > :37:26.Problems within the health service have dominated our news agenda for
:37:27. > :37:29.weeks. Long trolley waits in emergency departments, issues over
:37:30. > :37:32.nurses' salaries and then, on Friday, a statement confirming the
:37:33. > :37:39.deaths of five babies, are among eleven under investigation at the
:37:40. > :37:41.Northern Health Trust. Our health correspondent, Marie-Louise
:37:42. > :37:48.Connolly, asked the Trust's director, Greg Furness, to explain
:37:49. > :37:52.what went wrong. It is one of the things the turnaround team have
:37:53. > :37:59.looked at to see what is the culture. It is a culture of
:38:00. > :38:03.reporting, a culture of taking things extremely seriously and
:38:04. > :38:10.working hard to get a quick resolution as to what went wrong. It
:38:11. > :38:18.is a culture which is... Takes a while to develop. Why wasn't it in
:38:19. > :38:25.place five years ago? I can't answer. It is serious. Yes. We now
:38:26. > :38:31.and have been for the last many months addressing that period in the
:38:32. > :38:35.trust to turn it around. It is shocking to know in a trust like
:38:36. > :38:42.this that the proper procedure was not being adhered to. Why not? I am
:38:43. > :38:48.asking you, how could something so serious and important not be in
:38:49. > :38:54.place and followed? I really can't answer that. The procedures were
:38:55. > :39:01.there, people did not do it. Who was checking? Exactly. This system that
:39:02. > :39:08.was there had a governance committee which was looking at any incidents
:39:09. > :39:17.coming through but it has failed. We are talking about lives. Yes. Anyone
:39:18. > :39:22.held accountable? It is not for me to talk about accountability of
:39:23. > :39:28.people in the past or present. What I can say is the assurance is we are
:39:29. > :39:31.making changes now. Marie-Louise Connolly talking to Dr Greg Furness
:39:32. > :39:34.of the Northern Trust. With me now is the chair of Stormont's Health
:39:35. > :39:43.Committee, the Sinn Fein MLA, Maeve McLaughlin. You have called the
:39:44. > :39:49.situation alarming and said serious questions need to be answered. What
:39:50. > :39:54.other key issues? The statement on Friday indicated this is similar
:39:55. > :40:00.issues in another trust and we need to be mindful that we are dealing
:40:01. > :40:04.with families, there is a degree of sensitivity we need to bring.
:40:05. > :40:10.Clearly, there are issues in the delivery of the health system which
:40:11. > :40:15.is putting points on crisis. It is unacceptable that we're dealing with
:40:16. > :40:22.cases where we hear 20 cases in the Northern trust, the care that was
:40:23. > :40:27.delivered was under standard. Are you concerned this could be the tip
:40:28. > :40:33.of the iceberg? There are many many more cases to be explored. Something
:40:34. > :40:37.in the region of 20,000 X-rays that had to be examined. There are many
:40:38. > :40:47.more cases in the system coming to light. What do you make of Greg
:40:48. > :40:52.Furness's explanation of not putting serious incidents properly? How can
:40:53. > :40:57.they not be reported? It is of concern and listen to his response,
:40:58. > :41:02.we should all be able to answer who is accountable. There are issues
:41:03. > :41:07.about governance and accountability. It seems ironic that
:41:08. > :41:14.the minister for health and the recent deaths... There is something
:41:15. > :41:17.badly wrong when the minister who leads the department ultimately, the
:41:18. > :41:21.buck stops with him and he doesn't know about serious adverse
:41:22. > :41:25.incidents. We continuously here we will learn from mistakes, we will
:41:26. > :41:30.learn the lessons but here we are again with another set of
:41:31. > :41:34.circumstances which is shocking. If those serious incidents are not
:41:35. > :41:41.properly reported, how would he know? Absolutely. The minister has
:41:42. > :41:45.promised a root and branch review and the health Department are coming
:41:46. > :41:50.down with reviews currently but people on the ground need and the
:41:51. > :41:54.wider public and professionals need action around these issues and they
:41:55. > :42:01.need the minister to step up and deliver. This latest set of figures
:42:02. > :42:07.was uncovered by a team sent in by the minister to look at issues
:42:08. > :42:13.because he was unhappy. That is why the turnaround team was sent in. He
:42:14. > :42:20.deserves credit. But many people would say it is too little too late.
:42:21. > :42:24.This is nothing new. The College of emergency medicine, the RCN have
:42:25. > :42:28.been counting these issues for months. This was clearly on the
:42:29. > :42:34.agenda and flagged up as potential crisis, particularly in emergency
:42:35. > :42:39.departments but equally this is only the front window of the system and
:42:40. > :42:43.there needs to be a system approach to the review. This is in many
:42:44. > :42:47.people's minds and issue of public confidence and it is clearly an
:42:48. > :42:53.issue for so many people, particularly front line staff, too
:42:54. > :42:56.little too late. Does that show a shortcoming on your part because you
:42:57. > :43:00.are meant to hold the minister responsible, if he isn't doing his
:43:01. > :43:06.job properly, that means you are not. We have been flagging up for
:43:07. > :43:10.some time the process in transforming care, the vision of
:43:11. > :43:16.transforming care is a good vision. People accept 82 million from acute
:43:17. > :43:20.to community care is positive however where this has failed has
:43:21. > :43:27.been the action to implement that and the lack of practical outcomes.
:43:28. > :43:32.You don't get a sense that shifting 83 million will have positive
:43:33. > :43:40.outcomes across many sectors. Let's move onto another issue, Accident
:43:41. > :43:49.and Emergency issue. Janice Smith said recently an unacceptable
:43:50. > :43:53.situation exists, the RCN seriously concerned targets have become more
:43:54. > :43:59.important than people. Do you share that view? I do increasingly. I have
:44:00. > :44:04.moved to the view that targets in some cases, we can be so focused on
:44:05. > :44:09.not breaching 12 hour targets in departments that it becomes the
:44:10. > :44:14.focus and not the patient. I am sure there are cases will come to light
:44:15. > :44:18.where a patient is moved as a result of not breaching the 12 hour
:44:19. > :44:25.target. I think there is a genuine concern that we are too focused on
:44:26. > :44:30.targets and I also point out the RCN at their evidence session were vocal
:44:31. > :44:34.in saying there is something systematic within the system that is
:44:35. > :44:38.preventing staff and front line staff being heard. Do you think your
:44:39. > :44:42.committee is sufficiently well equipped to get to grips with its
:44:43. > :44:48.responsibilities, can you hold the minister and Department properly to
:44:49. > :44:53.account? Several professionals were grilled, did you give them a tough
:44:54. > :44:59.enough time? I think we did. Ultimately we know the remit. This
:45:00. > :45:05.issue was being suggested from the minister from January, it wasn't a
:45:06. > :45:07.crisis, we have moved the minister to the point he accepts there is
:45:08. > :45:13.something dramatically seriously and systematically wrong in a system.
:45:14. > :45:19.Clearly, the committee has stepped up to the plate and will continue to
:45:20. > :45:23.do so. We seem to be staggering from one crisis to another. Hardly a week
:45:24. > :45:29.passes but some other revelation is brought to our attention. Is that
:45:30. > :45:34.what it looks like to you? Yes, that is the reason I pointed out the
:45:35. > :45:39.context for transforming care. It is causing many issues in the system.
:45:40. > :45:44.There are basic initiatives that can be taken that have been counted,
:45:45. > :45:50.recruitment, the fact we have an ageing infrastructure, looking at
:45:51. > :45:54.the filtering system and the workforce planning. There are issues
:45:55. > :45:59.that have been pointed up that can be actions to alleviate these
:46:00. > :46:04.problems, we need a sense this will deliver better health outcomes for
:46:05. > :46:14.all of the communities and we didn't see that. Stay with us. Let's bring
:46:15. > :46:17.in today's guest commentators. Professor Deirdre Heenan from the
:46:18. > :46:23.University of Ulster and Jim Flanagan from the Ballymena
:46:24. > :46:28.Guardian. Is it not being rolled out in the way that was envisaged? We
:46:29. > :46:33.are conflating two issues, the information from the Northern trust
:46:34. > :46:38.is alarming and there is no two ways around that. That is information
:46:39. > :46:41.that points to the fact we do need a radical transformation of health and
:46:42. > :46:46.social care and that is what the vision is around transforming care.
:46:47. > :46:53.That is why transforming your care said incremental changes will not
:46:54. > :46:57.do. We need a radical overhaul. This dates back to 2008, it is worrying
:46:58. > :47:02.and the minister should be commended because he sent in the turnaround
:47:03. > :47:07.team when he became aware of the issues and his statement is detailed
:47:08. > :47:12.and Frank. He is trying to change a culture that is about moving to more
:47:13. > :47:16.transparency and accountability, nothing is being swept under the
:47:17. > :47:22.carpet. He says there are a number of issues and I am dealing with the
:47:23. > :47:26.issues. It was a bizarre interview with ahead of the trust to set I
:47:27. > :47:32.don't know what happened or how we got to this stage. He did not seem
:47:33. > :47:36.to have any answers. He talked about the culture in the health and social
:47:37. > :47:40.care system, transforming your care is coming along because it says the
:47:41. > :47:45.system is under unprecedented challenges, an ageing population,
:47:46. > :47:50.growing population set against a backdrop financial constraints. It
:47:51. > :47:56.looks like the safety net isn't there. It is the cart before the
:47:57. > :48:00.horse because while it works in principle, all of the other bits of
:48:01. > :48:06.the jigsaw are not in place. There aren't enough minor injuries units
:48:07. > :48:16.or the proper GP care to take their instead of and E. The beds are being
:48:17. > :48:21.closed in hospitals. In context, we are spending ?10 million a day on
:48:22. > :48:28.health and social care. We have 100,000 users a day. It is a complex
:48:29. > :48:33.system and you are trying to systematically change a system
:48:34. > :48:38.that's been in places 1948. It is not easy or short-term. And if you
:48:39. > :48:43.look around at the successes under transforming your care, you will see
:48:44. > :48:47.the developer of primary-care hubs. They are delivering the things you
:48:48. > :48:52.are talking about. They are there to ensure the focus is on primary care,
:48:53. > :48:59.the people are not coming to A because there's no all Terlizzi. The
:49:00. > :49:02.pressure point is at a and he. It will be slow, complex but but most
:49:03. > :49:11.importantly it needs political support. We don't need knee jerk
:49:12. > :49:17.reactions. Jim, fortuitous we have you here today. This latest
:49:18. > :49:22.development is at the heart of your patch. What is the reaction in
:49:23. > :49:28.Ballymena and North Antrim to the latest development? What we heard
:49:29. > :49:33.from the minister is a devastating account of failure of management and
:49:34. > :49:40.Edwin Poots is to be commended for his openness. He is brushing things
:49:41. > :49:44.from under the carpet but more potently trying to do something
:49:45. > :49:49.about it. There is this line in his statement talking about clinical
:49:50. > :49:53.staff not being properly supported or engaged and to me that is an
:49:54. > :49:59.indictment of the regime hitherto but the most important thing is what
:50:00. > :50:06.is being done. There is a root and branch review. X-rays are being
:50:07. > :50:10.reviewed and we need to be careful because you are talking about
:50:11. > :50:17.people's lives and families. We have not heard the end of it yet. Lawyers
:50:18. > :50:21.were being gauged a lot in the detail in a statement. Both of you
:50:22. > :50:25.take the lead minister should be commended for openness but the other
:50:26. > :50:30.way of looking at it is this is a man who is being open about the
:50:31. > :50:35.problems he has put aside it over. He is not across his brief. To be
:50:36. > :50:38.fair, many of these problems he inherited and health is not an easy
:50:39. > :50:42.portfolio and previous ministers said there isn't a problem or there
:50:43. > :50:48.is a problem but it's too difficult to deal with. His party was a
:50:49. > :50:54.critical of his predecessor who said he needed to get his finger out to
:50:55. > :50:59.sort it out. They haven't sorted it out. To be fair, he said there is an
:51:00. > :51:04.issue, she brought in a review team, he set out a long-term vision
:51:05. > :51:09.because what he was clear about is incremental change will not deal
:51:10. > :51:13.with the issues. We are repeatedly seeing issues because the way we
:51:14. > :51:21.deliver health and social care is not suitable for the challenge is
:51:22. > :51:26.being presented. What do you make of what the minister needs is no knee
:51:27. > :51:31.jerk reactions and proper political support to get us through? Is that
:51:32. > :51:37.likely to happen? The minister needs to lead through the process and part
:51:38. > :51:40.of his leadership will require that the vision that is transforming your
:51:41. > :51:45.care, that everybody has brought into, has a very clear outcome
:51:46. > :51:50.framework and it doesn't have a strategic outcome to date. That is
:51:51. > :51:55.missing and that is why we are staggering from crisis to crisis.
:51:56. > :52:01.How can transforming your care assist in terms of enablement,
:52:02. > :52:03.assisting in terms of emergency care departments, there are real
:52:04. > :52:09.questions of the need to be answered. By showing the leadership
:52:10. > :52:13.which was his vision in transforming your care, let's see the outcomes,
:52:14. > :52:19.give the public a sense of confidence that this can deliver
:52:20. > :52:24.what it has set out to do. There is an outcome framework and it is
:52:25. > :52:29.clear, it is multidimensional, multilayered and qualitative, the
:52:30. > :52:31.number of people now receiving personalised care packages, the
:52:32. > :52:37.number getting care in the community, before transforming your
:52:38. > :52:41.care, 60% of care was in hospitals, 40% in the community, we have
:52:42. > :52:47.reversed those figures and it's a huge change with community mental
:52:48. > :52:50.health teams delivering what people want in their community. We could
:52:51. > :52:57.continue long into the afternoon but thank you. The leader of the Green
:52:58. > :53:00.Party in Northern Ireland has called for greater transparency when it
:53:01. > :53:02.comes to political donations. Stephen Agnew says all parties
:53:03. > :53:05.should make donations public. Northern Ireland is the only area of
:53:06. > :53:08.the UK where political donations remain secret. The MLA for North
:53:09. > :53:11.Down was speaking at his party's annual conference - and our
:53:12. > :53:18.Political Reporter, Stephen Walker, was there.
:53:19. > :53:25.In the urban heart of East Belfast, a touch of green. Party members came
:53:26. > :53:29.to the Newtownards Road for the annual get-together. Green party
:53:30. > :53:33.members have come to discuss and debate issues like the environment,
:53:34. > :53:40.education and the economy, subjects they hope will chime with the
:53:41. > :53:42.electorate. There are only two councillors across Northern
:53:43. > :53:48.Ireland, activists hope after the May elections that number will
:53:49. > :53:53.automatically increase. Ross Brown is hoping for a council seat and is
:53:54. > :54:00.the parties European candidate. In his youth he was a Unionist, he did
:54:01. > :54:06.work experience with the DUP and school he talked -- topped the poll
:54:07. > :54:14.as a DUP candidate. At that time when I was younger I would have been
:54:15. > :54:21.a flag-waving unionist. Are you still Unionist? I don't really care
:54:22. > :54:25.on the issue of the union. The only union I'm concerned about is the
:54:26. > :54:30.European Union. As well as the economy and education, the
:54:31. > :54:33.conference also discussed equality. We are seeing the growth of a
:54:34. > :54:41.political class but it isn't bringing people along with them. We
:54:42. > :54:46.are not sing ethnic minorities included, young people, disabled
:54:47. > :54:51.people. It is the same people with the same conversations for the same
:54:52. > :54:56.reasons and we need to reform. 15 council candidates have been chosen
:54:57. > :55:02.by the party, the youngest is 19-year-old. Why is she standing for
:55:03. > :55:08.the Greens? They are more progressive and a party for the
:55:09. > :55:15.future rather than not popular with young people. The sole MLA Stephen
:55:16. > :55:19.Agnew talked about political donations. He thinks Northern
:55:20. > :55:24.Ireland has to change. The Green party is the only party that
:55:25. > :55:30.publishes its donations over ?500 or though we are not required to. We
:55:31. > :55:34.want other parties to step forward, other parties to deliver
:55:35. > :55:38.transparency because we need faith in politics. The Greens occupy a
:55:39. > :55:42.small foothold on the political landscape but in two months time we
:55:43. > :55:44.will discover if their ideals have wider appeal.
:55:45. > :55:46.Stephen Walker reporting from this weekend's Green Party conference in
:55:47. > :55:53.Belfast. Deirdre Heenan and Jim Flanagan. A quick word about
:55:54. > :55:59.transparency. It has been running for a long time. There is history in
:56:00. > :56:03.Northern Ireland for good reason is that it is difficult to be totally
:56:04. > :56:09.open but we are moved -- we are moving on. What about the Green
:56:10. > :56:16.party position in Northern Ireland, one MLA, two councillors, 15
:56:17. > :56:23.running? They deserve credit for ploughing a lone furrow. The
:56:24. > :56:27.Democratic Unionist party is fielding 13 in Ballymena alone. It
:56:28. > :56:32.gives you a sense of scale and the uphill battle but they fight their
:56:33. > :56:38.corner well. Stephen Agnew has formed well. A word about capturing
:56:39. > :56:44.the youth vote. It is quite right and where they should be looking to
:56:45. > :56:49.find votes. In schools and the post primary curriculum, the bar at is a
:56:50. > :56:55.key issue. And I agreed the Green party have able performers, it is
:56:56. > :56:59.difficult to get space in politics but they are to be admired and have
:57:00. > :57:10.performed well. Let's pause for a moment and take a look back at the
:57:11. > :57:13.political week in sixty seconds. Gerry Adams told a solicitor to
:57:14. > :57:22.contact police to see if they want to interview him about the murder of
:57:23. > :57:30.Jean McConville. The comments led to questions on Stormont.
:57:31. > :57:33.Can you tell the house redesignated as a nationalist?
:57:34. > :57:38.Should the come to Belfast? Some say no.
:57:39. > :57:42.You have turned around and said spiritual leader should not come to
:57:43. > :57:51.this city, he should go about the border whether or Roman Catholics.
:57:52. > :57:52.He is a man of big faith, he wants to reach out.
:57:53. > :58:01.At the moment. to reach out.
:58:02. > :58:02.but things can change. Rhyme and reason, one MLA went all
:58:03. > :58:06.poetic. Have you got the money to fund the
:58:07. > :58:14.expression or will you let it float away in another depression? A
:58:15. > :58:25.rhyming couplet from David McNarry ending that look back from Stephen
:58:26. > :58:28.Walker. Belfast City Council debates the
:58:29. > :58:32.apparently vexed issue of whether or not an invitation should be extended
:58:33. > :58:39.to the Pope on Tuesday? The battle lines have been drawn. Jim Rogers
:58:40. > :58:44.dug a hole and kept digging. It is depressing but also quite amusing.
:58:45. > :58:48.At any given point, we seem to revert to type. We can't move on.
:58:49. > :58:54.What was the problem saying, of course, if the Pope was to visit, he
:58:55. > :59:00.will be welcome. And that is what the Ulster Unionist party said in a
:59:01. > :59:06.second statement. He seemed to be out of step. He did and the party
:59:07. > :59:13.was quick to come in on it. It is a free country and to ever wants to
:59:14. > :59:16.come here can come. There are issues around the visit that need to be
:59:17. > :59:26.taken into consideration but why not? Are you expecting smoke? Fire
:59:27. > :59:31.and brimstone? I wouldn't have thought so. They will be more
:59:32. > :59:32.measured. We will see. Thank you both. That's it
:59:33. > :59:34.boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew,
:59:35. > :59:48.back to you. Now let's get more from our
:59:49. > :59:53.political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never
:59:54. > :59:56.spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood
:59:57. > :00:00.memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few
:00:01. > :00:03.council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to
:00:04. > :00:06.cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think
:00:07. > :00:10.the big difference with the National front in France is that they are
:00:11. > :00:14.building on decades of successful that they finished second in the
:00:15. > :00:20.presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they
:00:21. > :00:23.were versions of their politics. So they are building on a lot whereas
:00:24. > :00:32.the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.
:00:33. > :00:37.It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of
:00:38. > :00:43.its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not
:00:44. > :00:47.as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in
:00:48. > :00:55.the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same
:00:56. > :01:00.about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is
:01:01. > :01:03.pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about
:01:04. > :01:07.immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to
:01:08. > :01:10.an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council
:01:11. > :01:14.houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.
:01:15. > :01:19.We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As
:01:20. > :01:26.extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the
:01:27. > :01:34.comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left
:01:35. > :01:40.as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement
:01:41. > :01:50.that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.
:01:51. > :01:54.Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its
:01:55. > :01:59.act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge
:02:00. > :02:05.and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist
:02:06. > :02:10.party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have
:02:11. > :02:16.voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and
:02:17. > :02:23.France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when
:02:24. > :02:29.they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because
:02:30. > :02:38.the next election was 2007. 2002 they came second when Jean-Marie Le
:02:39. > :02:49.Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put
:02:50. > :02:53.them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much
:02:54. > :02:57.harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than
:02:58. > :03:11.there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If
:03:12. > :03:15.Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the
:03:16. > :03:19.centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the
:03:20. > :03:25.second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does
:03:26. > :03:30.and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's
:03:31. > :03:35.doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might
:03:36. > :03:40.call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from
:03:41. > :03:45.xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from
:03:46. > :03:49.globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but
:03:50. > :03:52.are put off by the current president. That is what I do not
:03:53. > :03:57.think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon
:03:58. > :04:02.Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he
:04:03. > :04:05.was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up
:04:06. > :04:12.against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the
:04:13. > :04:16.phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of
:04:17. > :04:20.electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a
:04:21. > :04:24.few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting
:04:25. > :04:27.people's bins collected so they become part of the system that
:04:28. > :04:34.people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the
:04:35. > :04:38.Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be
:04:39. > :04:43.cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the
:04:44. > :04:46.leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be
:04:47. > :04:52.cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where
:04:53. > :04:56.the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is
:04:57. > :05:01.quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the
:05:02. > :05:07.Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled.
:05:08. > :05:17.One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead
:05:18. > :05:23.over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people
:05:24. > :05:27.who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the
:05:28. > :05:32.Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of
:05:33. > :05:36.Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives
:05:37. > :05:40.did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can
:05:41. > :05:46.sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are
:05:47. > :05:51.concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the
:05:52. > :05:55.Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was
:05:56. > :06:00.impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the
:06:01. > :06:05.British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry,
:06:06. > :06:09.you are not occupying the party political territory where we will
:06:10. > :06:13.vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels
:06:14. > :06:20.a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the
:06:21. > :06:24.voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not
:06:25. > :06:27.unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it
:06:28. > :06:31.steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not
:06:32. > :06:35.respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But
:06:36. > :06:39.he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may
:06:40. > :06:44.think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot
:06:45. > :06:48.after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political
:06:49. > :06:55.weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr
:06:56. > :06:59.Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition
:07:00. > :07:03.authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.
:07:04. > :07:06.And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be
:07:07. > :07:12.attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget
:07:13. > :07:16.that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical
:07:17. > :07:23.trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to
:07:24. > :07:30.five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question
:07:31. > :07:35.is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This
:07:36. > :07:40.reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking
:07:41. > :07:44.poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and
:07:45. > :07:48.personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away
:07:49. > :07:55.an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important
:07:56. > :07:59.difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the
:08:00. > :08:04.election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up
:08:05. > :08:08.their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now,
:08:09. > :08:11.we do not like this government because of course, you do not like
:08:12. > :08:17.the government. But next January or February they will be making up
:08:18. > :08:22.their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour
:08:23. > :08:25.figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because
:08:26. > :08:32.there are not big ideological differences between them, is there?
:08:33. > :08:37.Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from
:08:38. > :08:42.the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a
:08:43. > :08:46.continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they
:08:47. > :08:54.do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying
:08:55. > :09:00.he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in
:09:01. > :09:04.the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible
:09:05. > :09:09.structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed
:09:10. > :09:14.Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red
:09:15. > :09:17.ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy
:09:18. > :09:23.speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron
:09:24. > :09:27.nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this
:09:28. > :09:32.week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on
:09:33. > :09:37.the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's remind ourselves of what happened in
:09:38. > :09:45.last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.
:09:46. > :09:51.We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A
:09:52. > :09:58.referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can
:09:59. > :10:08.read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We
:10:09. > :10:14.have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.
:10:15. > :10:22.Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on
:10:23. > :10:27.facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen
:10:28. > :10:35.to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You
:10:36. > :10:43.have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.
:10:44. > :10:47.I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that
:10:48. > :10:53.and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for
:10:54. > :10:57.pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said
:10:58. > :11:05.actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later
:11:06. > :11:08.on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important
:11:09. > :11:12.thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration
:11:13. > :11:17.policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to
:11:18. > :11:20.come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important
:11:21. > :11:25.thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I
:11:26. > :11:33.suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11
:11:34. > :11:37.turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I
:11:38. > :11:42.slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought
:11:43. > :11:48.far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public
:11:49. > :11:55.disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean
:11:56. > :12:00.the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the
:12:01. > :12:07.second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man
:12:08. > :12:12.who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate.
:12:13. > :12:16.Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs
:12:17. > :12:19.to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions
:12:20. > :12:25.because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after
:12:26. > :12:29.Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands
:12:30. > :12:33.with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign
:12:34. > :12:38.policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria
:12:39. > :12:41.worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of
:12:42. > :12:46.the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say
:12:47. > :12:50.that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for
:12:51. > :12:54.blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating
:12:55. > :13:02.the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's
:13:03. > :13:05.shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does
:13:06. > :13:10.that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing
:13:11. > :13:14.with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will
:13:15. > :13:18.see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily
:13:19. > :13:20.Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here
:13:21. > :13:23.next week at the every day this week. I'll be here
:13:24. > :13:25.next week at the usual time of 11 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:26. > :13:32.it's the Sunday Politics.