2:30:34 > 2:30:36Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.
2:30:36 > 2:30:39European leaders have signed off the terms of the Brexit
2:30:39 > 2:30:42negotiations with the UK, including an agreement with the
2:30:42 > 2:30:46Taoiseach Enda Kenny that Northern Ireland can automatically
2:30:46 > 2:30:49rejoin the EU if there's a poll in favour of a united Ireland.
2:30:49 > 2:30:53So, is that a modest technicality, or the starting pistol being fired
2:30:53 > 2:30:56for a new debate about the reunification of the island?
2:30:56 > 2:30:59Plus, in a move both unprecedented and unexpected,
2:30:59 > 2:31:02the campaign over abortion provision in the Republic took
2:31:02 > 2:31:06a big step forward with a citizens call to the politicians for
2:31:06 > 2:31:08a much more liberal regime.
2:31:08 > 2:31:10So what might that mean for Northern Ireland?
2:31:10 > 2:31:13We'll discuss that with our guests in Belfast and Dublin.
2:31:13 > 2:31:16And my guests of the day, Patricia McBride and Sam McBride.
2:31:23 > 2:31:26Hello. Yesterday, of course, marked yet another important stage in
2:31:26 > 2:31:30Brexit, and the Irish border was front and centre.
2:31:30 > 2:31:32This is all about the Good Friday Agreement.
2:31:32 > 2:31:37Which makes it very clear that the six counties remain part of
2:31:37 > 2:31:42the United Kingdom unless and until the people decide to make
2:31:42 > 2:31:44a different choice by democratic means.
2:31:44 > 2:31:46In other words, by referendum.
2:31:46 > 2:31:49And that can only be triggered by the British government and
2:31:49 > 2:31:51the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
2:31:51 > 2:31:55In my view, the conditions do not exist now for border polls
2:31:55 > 2:31:56to determine the outcome.
2:31:56 > 2:32:01But the value part of today's decision is that if at some time in
2:32:01 > 2:32:06the future that action is taken, a referendum triggered and a decision
2:32:06 > 2:32:10made by the people of Northern Ireland, that not only would both
2:32:10 > 2:32:14governments recognise it, but that the European Council would recognise
2:32:14 > 2:32:19the entire island of Ireland then as being part of the European Union,
2:32:19 > 2:32:22without Northern Ireland, which is currently in the European Union,
2:32:22 > 2:32:25having to reapply under section 49 of the Treaty of Rome.
2:32:25 > 2:32:31I think that's a significant legal statement from the European Council,
2:32:31 > 2:32:35for something that may happen at some time in the future.
2:32:35 > 2:32:37But not in the immediate future, obviously.
2:32:37 > 2:32:39That was the Taoiseach Enda Kenny speaking Yesterday.
2:32:39 > 2:32:41Let's hear what my guests of the day make of that.
2:32:41 > 2:32:44With me are the commentator Patricia MacBride, and Sam McBride,
2:32:44 > 2:32:47political editor of the News Letter. Welcome to you both.
2:32:47 > 2:32:50A matter of minutes, Patricia, was all it took for the 27 to
2:32:50 > 2:32:52agree their negotiating approach to Brexit.
2:32:52 > 2:32:56This island was clearly at the centre of that conversation.
2:32:56 > 2:33:00Yeah, I think it's interesting to see the change in mood music
2:33:00 > 2:33:03in Dublin. I think that's very much what this is about.
2:33:03 > 2:33:05And that's the significance of it.
2:33:05 > 2:33:09Enda Kenny is creating a situation now where he's putting the
2:33:09 > 2:33:14ducks in a row, as it were, for any future referendum or border poll.
2:33:14 > 2:33:18And looking at ensuring that there are no obstacles to that.
2:33:18 > 2:33:21If you go back to the independence referendum in Scotland,
2:33:21 > 2:33:25one of the issues there was what would be, what would Scotland's
2:33:25 > 2:33:29status within the EU be in the event of an independence referendum.
2:33:29 > 2:33:31That was an unanswered question.
2:33:31 > 2:33:34And it was something that deeply affected the outcome of that
2:33:34 > 2:33:35independence referendum.
2:33:35 > 2:33:38That's now not going to be the case in a future border poll in the North.
2:33:38 > 2:33:41People will be assured that if there is a vote for reunification,
2:33:41 > 2:33:44that will include a full membership of the EU.
2:33:44 > 2:33:48So it's really about forward planning on behalf of Fine Gael and the Irish government.
2:33:48 > 2:33:50Sam, do you think Unionists will be alarmed at this,
2:33:50 > 2:33:53or will they simply put it down to a technical detail?
2:33:53 > 2:33:56I don't think anybody either will be or should be alarmed at this,
2:33:56 > 2:33:58I think it's a fairly technical detail.
2:33:58 > 2:34:00The difference with Scotland is that Scotland was planning to
2:34:00 > 2:34:02become an independent country.
2:34:02 > 2:34:05If we were to have a united Ireland, we would be planning to join
2:34:05 > 2:34:07what is already an independent country, which is within the EU.
2:34:07 > 2:34:10I think it would be inconceivable that in those circumstances,
2:34:10 > 2:34:11we would then not be part of the EU.
2:34:11 > 2:34:15This is removing that ambiguity, if that ambiguity was there.
2:34:15 > 2:34:17But the idea that you could have a situation where two thirds of
2:34:17 > 2:34:20the island after unity is in the EU and we're not is
2:34:20 > 2:34:22completely unthinkable.
2:34:22 > 2:34:25I think the significance of this is that Enda Kenny here clearly
2:34:25 > 2:34:27has got a degree of clout in the Irish government, and the
2:34:27 > 2:34:30Irish diplomatic corps have a degree of clout at Brussels.
2:34:30 > 2:34:33They're exercising that, that's potentially quite significant
2:34:33 > 2:34:36when it comes to other aspects of the Brexit negotiations.
2:34:36 > 2:34:39But, briefly, does it bring a new dynamic to that wider debate
2:34:39 > 2:34:41about Irish unity?
2:34:41 > 2:34:44I think it potentially, for people who really passionately care
2:34:44 > 2:34:47about remaining in the EU, gives them a route to that.
2:34:47 > 2:34:49Even if they're Unionists.
2:34:49 > 2:34:51If they actually think, what do we care about most,
2:34:51 > 2:34:54the union with the UK or the union with the rest of Europe?
2:34:54 > 2:34:56But I don't think there has been any evidence yet in terms of
2:34:56 > 2:34:58polling that there's any massive shift.
2:34:58 > 2:35:01Certainly the Irish government was bending over backwards to
2:35:01 > 2:35:04stress that they don't even want to have a referendum at this point,
2:35:04 > 2:35:07but they're putting their ducks in the row, as Patricia says.
2:35:07 > 2:35:10If that ever happened, that there is no ambiguity around this aspect.
2:35:10 > 2:35:13Nationalists will presumably, in the North in particular,
2:35:13 > 2:35:17try to use it to move that debate forward, though.
2:35:17 > 2:35:18Well, I think there will be an element of that
2:35:18 > 2:35:21and we have already seen that since the Brexit referendum.
2:35:21 > 2:35:25But any move toward a border poll based on the status of the North
2:35:25 > 2:35:28within or outside of the EU is premature.
2:35:28 > 2:35:33The impact of Brexit will need to be known in real terms.
2:35:33 > 2:35:37And that will be measured. I think, you know, if you see five, ten years
2:35:37 > 2:35:41of hard financial times with the withdrawal of EU funding,
2:35:41 > 2:35:44people will then reassess their attitude towards the EU.
2:35:44 > 2:35:47Well, people in the North already
2:35:47 > 2:35:49overwhelmingly voted to remain within the EU.
2:35:49 > 2:35:53But you will see that attitude changing as to whether or not
2:35:53 > 2:35:56the best place for the people of the North is within the EU,
2:35:56 > 2:35:58- in a united Ireland. - OK. Thanks, both.
2:35:58 > 2:36:00We'll hear lots more from you between now
2:36:00 > 2:36:01and the end of the programme.
2:36:01 > 2:36:05But while the focus has been on the Westminster election campaigns
2:36:05 > 2:36:08and the Stormont talks going into cold storage,
2:36:08 > 2:36:10a big political story has now emerged
2:36:10 > 2:36:11in the Republic which could see
2:36:11 > 2:36:14a referendum being held on abortion next year.
2:36:14 > 2:36:17With me to talk about that is Grainne Teggart from Amnesty,
2:36:17 > 2:36:19and in our Dublin studio, Michael Kelly,
2:36:19 > 2:36:22the editor of the Irish Catholic newspaper.
2:36:22 > 2:36:24Welcome to you both. Michael Kelly, the pro-life lobby
2:36:24 > 2:36:28has dismissed the deliberations of the Citizens' Assembly
2:36:28 > 2:36:31as "one-sided, unscientific and chaotic,"
2:36:31 > 2:36:34but it is putting shape on the debate. Do you accept that?
2:36:34 > 2:36:38Oh, there's no question that it's putting shape on the debate.
2:36:38 > 2:36:40This process, this Citizens' Assembly
2:36:40 > 2:36:42was, I think, a flawed process
2:36:42 > 2:36:43though from day one.
2:36:43 > 2:36:46It strikes me as odd that in a country, a democracy
2:36:46 > 2:36:48where we have a real Citizens' Assembly,
2:36:48 > 2:36:50that is to say the Oireachtas that's elected by the people,
2:36:50 > 2:36:53something like this, something so complex,
2:36:53 > 2:36:56would be farmed out to a group of people
2:36:56 > 2:36:59who meet together for a few weekends in a hotel.
2:36:59 > 2:37:02I think that the results are not surprising
2:37:02 > 2:37:05when you give some of the background, some of the context,
2:37:05 > 2:37:08the fact that some of the government-appointed advisers
2:37:08 > 2:37:11to this Assembly are themselves very, very...
2:37:11 > 2:37:13People who have expressed very strong opinions
2:37:13 > 2:37:15in favour of legalising abortion in the past.
2:37:15 > 2:37:17When you look, for example,
2:37:17 > 2:37:19that this is supposed to be a representative body,
2:37:19 > 2:37:21and yet there are 11 counties in the Republic
2:37:21 > 2:37:23where there wasn't one representative,
2:37:23 > 2:37:26I mean, that would be like trying to decide something north of the border
2:37:26 > 2:37:28while excluding all the people
2:37:28 > 2:37:31from County Down, County Antrim and County Armagh.
2:37:31 > 2:37:33So it's a deeply flawed process.
2:37:33 > 2:37:35But it was based on demographics, not on geography.
2:37:35 > 2:37:37Well, we actually are not quite sure.
2:37:37 > 2:37:41There's been no great publishing on why the polling agency
2:37:41 > 2:37:43decided to choose particular people.
2:37:43 > 2:37:45But I think the important point is now
2:37:45 > 2:37:48this is an issue that goes back to the Oireachtas now,
2:37:48 > 2:37:52where it really ought to have been dealt with in the first place.
2:37:52 > 2:37:54As I say, the real Citizens' Assembly,
2:37:54 > 2:37:56those who are actually elected by the people
2:37:56 > 2:38:01rather than this body taking so much of its advice from people
2:38:01 > 2:38:04who, let's face it, have a vested interest in abortion.
2:38:04 > 2:38:09One of the experts brought over to discuss the issue with the committee
2:38:09 > 2:38:12was from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, BPAS.
2:38:12 > 2:38:15That's an organisation that in their annual report last year,
2:38:15 > 2:38:18because they carried out more abortions than in previous years,
2:38:18 > 2:38:21they described that as having increased their market share.
2:38:21 > 2:38:24So, you know, that's the... That's the mood music, if you like
2:38:24 > 2:38:26that's been going on here in the background.
2:38:26 > 2:38:28All right, Grainne Teggart, how significant a development
2:38:28 > 2:38:32do you see it as? I mean, it is a Citizens' Assembly,
2:38:32 > 2:38:35it's not the elected representatives of the people in the Oireachtas,
2:38:35 > 2:38:38so we do need to put it into perspective.
2:38:38 > 2:38:40We do, absolutely, but it is hugely significant.
2:38:40 > 2:38:44I mean, the Citizens' Assembly result shows us what we know already
2:38:44 > 2:38:46through polls which have been consistently run
2:38:46 > 2:38:47in the south of Ireland
2:38:47 > 2:38:50which shows that people do favour abortion reform
2:38:50 > 2:38:52in a way that respects and promotes the rights of women.
2:38:52 > 2:38:57Now, since 1983, the government in the south has been running away
2:38:57 > 2:38:59from this issue and they have had the security blanket,
2:38:59 > 2:39:01if you like, of the Eighth Amendment.
2:39:01 > 2:39:02This result from the Citizens' Assembly
2:39:02 > 2:39:05and the votes that have been taken very much indicate
2:39:05 > 2:39:08the direction of travel that we in Amnesty have been saying,
2:39:08 > 2:39:10which is that we need to see reform of our laws,
2:39:10 > 2:39:13they need to adhere to international human rights standards,
2:39:13 > 2:39:16and having a constitutional framework that does not respect
2:39:16 > 2:39:20the rights of women is not an excuse or justification for negating
2:39:20 > 2:39:22your responsibilities to bring about much-needed reform.
2:39:22 > 2:39:25So the Justice Minister and Tanaiste, Frances Fitzgerald,
2:39:25 > 2:39:28says the process now needs to proceed with a Dail committee
2:39:28 > 2:39:32plotting the way forward to, in her view, a referendum next year.
2:39:32 > 2:39:34Do you agree with that course of action?
2:39:34 > 2:39:35So the next stage, obviously,
2:39:35 > 2:39:37is Justice Laffoy will issue her report in June,
2:39:37 > 2:39:39that will go to the Oireachtas committee.
2:39:39 > 2:39:42And there are significant issues that they will have to grapple with,
2:39:42 > 2:39:45including a gap on one of the ballots obviously considered by the
2:39:45 > 2:39:49Citizens' Assembly around the decriminalisation of abortion.
2:39:49 > 2:39:52Now, if the Oireachtas and the government adhere and heed
2:39:52 > 2:39:54the progress called by the Citizens' Assembly
2:39:54 > 2:39:57and they also look to what their human rights commitments are
2:39:57 > 2:40:00and what the expectations are there for change,
2:40:00 > 2:40:04then what we should see is not only the reforms so that it allows
2:40:04 > 2:40:07in cases of rape and fatal foetal abnormalities etc,
2:40:07 > 2:40:09but also the decriminalisation of abortion.
2:40:09 > 2:40:12So the Oireachtas committee is now going to have to grapple
2:40:12 > 2:40:14with that issue and plug that gap.
2:40:14 > 2:40:18Michael Kelly, are you frightened of a referendum?
2:40:18 > 2:40:21No, not remotely. I think we have to allow the process
2:40:21 > 2:40:23that is in place now to proceed.
2:40:23 > 2:40:25The Oireachtas committee will consider
2:40:25 > 2:40:28Judge Laffoy's report when it comes forward.
2:40:28 > 2:40:30It's important that they do that in a calm fashion.
2:40:30 > 2:40:32It's important that they hear from people
2:40:32 > 2:40:34who are experts in this issue.
2:40:34 > 2:40:36I think it is also important that,
2:40:36 > 2:40:41particularly when we hear loaded terms like fatal foetal abnormality,
2:40:41 > 2:40:42that they actually hear from families
2:40:42 > 2:40:45whose children are alive today even though they were told
2:40:45 > 2:40:49that their child would only live for a few minutes.
2:40:49 > 2:40:52As we know, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists,
2:40:52 > 2:40:53they don't favour that language.
2:40:53 > 2:40:57Professor Jim Dornan has said that's not in any textbook.
2:40:57 > 2:40:58The preferred term, obviously,
2:40:58 > 2:41:00is people with life-limiting conditions.
2:41:00 > 2:41:03So it's important that we have a very inclusive debate here
2:41:03 > 2:41:07because we have to face the reality. I mean, let's not kid ourselves,
2:41:07 > 2:41:10what the Citizens' Assembly discussed is a proposal
2:41:10 > 2:41:13that would permit, for example, children with Down's syndrome
2:41:13 > 2:41:15to be aborted up to 22 weeks.
2:41:15 > 2:41:1890% of children diagnosed in the womb with Down's syndrome in the UK
2:41:18 > 2:41:22are currently aborted. In Iceland, that's 100%.
2:41:22 > 2:41:24We recently had a government minister in Iceland boasting
2:41:24 > 2:41:27that there hasn't been a child born with Down's syndrome
2:41:27 > 2:41:29in Iceland in the last five years.
2:41:29 > 2:41:32That's the vista that we're looking at, that desperately sick children
2:41:32 > 2:41:36in the womb would be denied their right to life
2:41:36 > 2:41:38even before they see the light of day.
2:41:38 > 2:41:41- How do you respond to that?- I mean, the recommendations are very clear.
2:41:41 > 2:41:45And I have to say, often we hear certain disabilities cited
2:41:45 > 2:41:49as a reason to reject and to refuse any progress.
2:41:49 > 2:41:51You know, it is interesting what Michael is saying because
2:41:51 > 2:41:53I wonder had the Citizens' Assembly come forward with
2:41:53 > 2:41:57anti-choice recommendations if the same criticisms would be made.
2:41:57 > 2:41:59But, look, the bottom line is this -
2:41:59 > 2:42:02the Irish government has signed up to various human rights treaties.
2:42:02 > 2:42:03It is bound by those treaties.
2:42:03 > 2:42:05We have seen since 1983, they have referred...
2:42:05 > 2:42:08Sorry, Mark, I think it's important for me to clarify...
2:42:08 > 2:42:11No such right to abortion exists in international law.
2:42:11 > 2:42:14The European Court of Human Rights has consistently said
2:42:14 > 2:42:17that the convention does not confer a right to abortion.
2:42:17 > 2:42:18So we hear this trotted out again,
2:42:18 > 2:42:21that Ireland has somehow got some international commitment
2:42:21 > 2:42:24to legislate for abortion, but that's absolutely not the case...
2:42:24 > 2:42:26- OK, Grainne? - Well, I haven't...- ..untrue.
2:42:26 > 2:42:29For clarity, I haven't explicitly stated the right to abortion.
2:42:29 > 2:42:34What we have are rights to health, to non-discrimination, to equality.
2:42:34 > 2:42:37This is what women in Ireland currently don't have.
2:42:37 > 2:42:41They don't enjoy those rights because of the Eighth Amendment.
2:42:41 > 2:42:43For clarity, that's the point that I was making.
2:42:43 > 2:42:44THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
2:42:44 > 2:42:46Hang on a second, hang on a second.
2:42:46 > 2:42:49Just let Grainne finish this point and then I'll come back to you.
2:42:49 > 2:42:51For too long we have seen political parties in the south
2:42:51 > 2:42:53and the government hide from this issue.
2:42:53 > 2:42:56They have relied on the Eighth Amendment to do so.
2:42:56 > 2:42:57They now don't have that security blanket.
2:42:57 > 2:42:59OK, a quick final comment on this,
2:42:59 > 2:43:02and then I want to bring this to Northern Ireland specifically.
2:43:02 > 2:43:03Just your final thought
2:43:03 > 2:43:05on what you were discussing there with Grainne, Michael.
2:43:05 > 2:43:07Well, I think that it is important that we have facts
2:43:07 > 2:43:08around this situation.
2:43:08 > 2:43:11It is important that we have facts just around how important the
2:43:11 > 2:43:12Eighth Amendment has been.
2:43:12 > 2:43:15I mean, there are 100,000 people alive today in the Republic
2:43:15 > 2:43:17because of the Eighth Amendment.
2:43:17 > 2:43:20I've spoken to numerous women who have said, you know,
2:43:20 > 2:43:23because the option of abortion wasn't available to them in
2:43:23 > 2:43:26Ireland, they had their child and they were delighted they did.
2:43:26 > 2:43:28So if they had an abortion clinic down the road, they probably would
2:43:28 > 2:43:31have preceded with that at a time when they were experiencing
2:43:31 > 2:43:33a crisis in their pregnancy and really just needed a bit of support.
2:43:33 > 2:43:36The fact is that the Citizens' Assembly heard from
2:43:36 > 2:43:39a wide range of people, including the Catholic Church,
2:43:39 > 2:43:42and disagreed with their position on this.
2:43:42 > 2:43:45So what we now need to see is the reform brought about,
2:43:45 > 2:43:48not only the referendum next year, but also legal reform to
2:43:48 > 2:43:51ensure that the rights of women are promoted, protected and upheld.
2:43:51 > 2:43:54OK, Michael Kelly, just before we bring this to a conclusion,
2:43:54 > 2:43:57what do you think, potentially, are the implications of this
2:43:57 > 2:44:01latest development for people in Northern Ireland?
2:44:01 > 2:44:04Well, I think it probably will increase the pressure as well.
2:44:04 > 2:44:07People will be looking across the border at bodies like the
2:44:07 > 2:44:09Citizens' Assembly, you know,
2:44:09 > 2:44:11groups that have been pushing abortion.
2:44:11 > 2:44:12We know, for example,
2:44:12 > 2:44:15groups like Amnesty have received vast grants
2:44:15 > 2:44:17from the US-based billionaire George Soros
2:44:17 > 2:44:19to try to push abortion,
2:44:19 > 2:44:22so that campaign is in place in the Republic,
2:44:22 > 2:44:25and it's very advanced and in place in Northern Ireland as well.
2:44:25 > 2:44:28But I've no doubt that Pro Life campaigners will continue
2:44:28 > 2:44:30telling the truth about this issue,
2:44:30 > 2:44:33and crucially speaking for those who can't speak for themselves.
2:44:33 > 2:44:35Grainne Teggart, what do you think the implications are
2:44:35 > 2:44:38- for people in Northern Ireland? - I think right across the island,
2:44:38 > 2:44:40what we're seeing is a focus on our abortion laws
2:44:40 > 2:44:41in a way that we just haven't,
2:44:41 > 2:44:44nor was it particularly imaginable even a decade ago.
2:44:44 > 2:44:47But there's no doubt that there's a sea change of public opinion,
2:44:47 > 2:44:50that people want to see a reform of our laws.
2:44:50 > 2:44:51Right across the island,
2:44:51 > 2:44:53both governments are going to have to address the issue of
2:44:53 > 2:44:56decriminalisation of abortion, because, of course,
2:44:56 > 2:44:58in Northern Ireland, what we're seeing are women being hauled
2:44:58 > 2:45:01through the courts, through the criminal justice system here.
2:45:01 > 2:45:03The bottom line is that abortion is a health care
2:45:03 > 2:45:04and human rights issue.
2:45:04 > 2:45:06It's a mater for women and their doctors,
2:45:06 > 2:45:08not police and judges, and certainly not for any church.
2:45:08 > 2:45:10OK, stay with me, both of you,
2:45:10 > 2:45:13cos I want to broaden this discussion now
2:45:13 > 2:45:16by bringing in Patricia and Sam. Sam, do you think,
2:45:16 > 2:45:19just picking up on the final point there with my two guests,
2:45:19 > 2:45:24that there are significant consequences of what
2:45:24 > 2:45:27has happened in the Republic for Northern Ireland or not?
2:45:27 > 2:45:30I think there are in a wider sense.
2:45:30 > 2:45:33It's very clear the direction of travel over the last 20 years,
2:45:33 > 2:45:36probably over the last 40 years both south and north of the border
2:45:36 > 2:45:39on these social issues is becoming much more liberal.
2:45:39 > 2:45:42Positions which were niche 20 years ago are now mainstream.
2:45:42 > 2:45:45I think that if you go back right into history,
2:45:45 > 2:45:49Protestantism was not necessarily associated with Unionism.
2:45:49 > 2:45:52There were all sorts of radical protestants who supported the
2:45:52 > 2:45:56idea of breaking the link with the rest of the UK.
2:45:56 > 2:45:58One of the key factors which changed that was the idea
2:45:58 > 2:46:00that Home Rule is Rome Rule.
2:46:00 > 2:46:02It's very clear over the last 20 years,
2:46:02 > 2:46:04it's very clear from what's being said this morning,
2:46:04 > 2:46:07the Catholic Church does not have anything like the influence
2:46:07 > 2:46:08in the south that it had in the past.
2:46:08 > 2:46:11That doesn't necessarily mean that Unionists are necessarily
2:46:11 > 2:46:14going to drop their opposition, but for those Unionists for whom that
2:46:14 > 2:46:17was a concern, I think that plank of their concern is being removed.
2:46:17 > 2:46:22Patricia, how do you view it? Do you see parallels or not?
2:46:22 > 2:46:24Well, I think the interesting issue that this raises for me is the
2:46:24 > 2:46:28fact that we in the north continue to export our human rights issues.
2:46:28 > 2:46:30Look at the issue of marriage equality,
2:46:30 > 2:46:32something that has been subject of a referendum in the south,
2:46:32 > 2:46:36we're now looking into a referendum on reproductive rights next year,
2:46:36 > 2:46:38in all likelihood.
2:46:38 > 2:46:41What's interesting from listening to the debate this morning is
2:46:41 > 2:46:46the way that the Anti Choice lobby is branding the Citizens' Assembly
2:46:46 > 2:46:49as a nonsense, you know, that it's not worth listening to.
2:46:49 > 2:46:53It's undermining the whole notion of participatory democracy
2:46:53 > 2:46:54in doing that.
2:46:54 > 2:46:57The issue now is around the framing of any future referendum and
2:46:57 > 2:46:59how that's going to look,
2:46:59 > 2:47:01and what it is the people are going to be asked to vote on.
2:47:01 > 2:47:04Those are going to be the key battlegrounds in the coming months,
2:47:04 > 2:47:07after Justice Laffoy's report is published.
2:47:07 > 2:47:10So it'll be interesting to see where that goes and the impact
2:47:10 > 2:47:13that it'll have on women on this part of Ireland.
2:47:13 > 2:47:15Sam?
2:47:15 > 2:47:17It's also a very tricky position for Sinn Fein itself in,
2:47:17 > 2:47:20in the sense that on both sides of the border they're saying
2:47:20 > 2:47:22that as a party they're Pro Life, but actually, when you drill
2:47:22 > 2:47:25down into that, they do want to liberalise the law in several areas.
2:47:25 > 2:47:27There's a big debate internally there.
2:47:27 > 2:47:29They haven't quite resolved that yet.
2:47:29 > 2:47:31Michael, I just want to come back to you.
2:47:31 > 2:47:34There is an interesting potential conundrum facing us here
2:47:34 > 2:47:39where we may well have a referendum on this issue next year,
2:47:39 > 2:47:40which is the year, of course,
2:47:40 > 2:47:45that the Pope is rumoured to be visiting the island of Ireland.
2:47:45 > 2:47:47How much more difficult, potentially,
2:47:47 > 2:47:49does that make the situation?
2:47:49 > 2:47:51Well, the Vatican will certainly be watching this.
2:47:51 > 2:47:52From their end,
2:47:52 > 2:47:55I expect that Enda Kenny and whoever it is that will replace
2:47:55 > 2:47:58Enda Kenny as Taoiseach when the change of leadership within
2:47:58 > 2:48:01Fine Gael eventually happens, will be looking towards that as well.
2:48:01 > 2:48:04Pope Francis, of course, is someone who is hugely popular.
2:48:04 > 2:48:06I think that politicians certainly wouldn't like
2:48:06 > 2:48:10a situation whereby the Pope was coming very clearly on one side
2:48:10 > 2:48:14of an abortion referendum if they do decide to push
2:48:14 > 2:48:16ahead with a referendum.
2:48:16 > 2:48:21Grainne, does that potentially muddy already difficult waters?
2:48:21 > 2:48:25No, this is always going to be a difficult issue for our
2:48:25 > 2:48:28governments, and indeed for people to consider and grapple with.
2:48:28 > 2:48:31The greatest lesson from the Citizens' Assembly is that
2:48:31 > 2:48:34when people take the time to look in depth at this issue and to
2:48:34 > 2:48:36consider the evidence before them and to hear from
2:48:36 > 2:48:40a range of voices that you arrive at logical Pro Choice conclusions,
2:48:40 > 2:48:44because it's simply not sustainable to continue to export women
2:48:44 > 2:48:47to the rest of the UK from Northern Ireland and obviously
2:48:47 > 2:48:51to Britain and further afield for women from the south of Ireland.
2:48:51 > 2:48:53The time has ended for our politicians to be running and
2:48:53 > 2:48:56hiding from this issue, they need to address it head-on.
2:48:56 > 2:48:58Certainly for our parties, including Sinn Fein,
2:48:58 > 2:49:00they are now in a position where they have to reflect on their
2:49:00 > 2:49:03party policies, because all those party policies need to be
2:49:03 > 2:49:04human rights compliant,
2:49:04 > 2:49:08and that goes beyond sexual crime and fatal abnormalities,
2:49:08 > 2:49:11however you want to term that, and then to decriminalisation.
2:49:11 > 2:49:14OK, we will leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed.
2:49:14 > 2:49:16Let's just pause for a moment to take
2:49:16 > 2:49:19a look back at the week gone past in 60 seconds with Gareth Gordon.
2:49:25 > 2:49:28It was the week the DUP leader spoke Irish
2:49:28 > 2:49:30when she met students in Newry.
2:49:30 > 2:49:34ALL SPEAKING IRISH
2:49:34 > 2:49:37Sinn Fein said the interaction with Irish Language supporters
2:49:37 > 2:49:40could improve political relations.
2:49:40 > 2:49:41Well, I do welcome it as a positive step forward.
2:49:41 > 2:49:44Hopefully it helps inform and develop her position
2:49:44 > 2:49:46and her party's approach to the Irish language.
2:49:46 > 2:49:49But the DUP's move had its critics.
2:49:49 > 2:49:52It looks to me that they're readying to pay Sinn Fein's price
2:49:52 > 2:49:53on the Irish Language Act,
2:49:53 > 2:49:59that's why they've been genuflecting today to the Irish language groups.
2:49:59 > 2:50:02Talks to restore the Stormont institutions were postponed
2:50:02 > 2:50:04until after June's election.
2:50:04 > 2:50:08We have been able to park the process,
2:50:08 > 2:50:12but we cannot stop the juggernaut of chaos and cuts which is
2:50:12 > 2:50:14heading through our public finances.
2:50:14 > 2:50:19No anti-Brexit pact for the election, but what about unionists?
2:50:19 > 2:50:22We want to maximise Unionist representation
2:50:22 > 2:50:23in the House of Commons.
2:50:23 > 2:50:25Why? Because we are unionist.
2:50:31 > 2:50:35Gareth Gordon reporting. Let's have a final word with Sam and Patricia.
2:50:35 > 2:50:38Sam, we've been talking a lot about pacts in the last few weeks.
2:50:38 > 2:50:41Unionists are - we saw it there from Jeffrey Donaldson -
2:50:41 > 2:50:43still very keen on South Belfast.
2:50:43 > 2:50:45We know that there's agreement about Fermanagh, North Tyrone
2:50:45 > 2:50:47and North Belfast.
2:50:47 > 2:50:50Do you think they'll get it together to challenge Alasdair McDonnell?
2:50:50 > 2:50:52I think that's still unclear.
2:50:52 > 2:50:56The Ulster Unionist Party officers met on Friday afternoon
2:50:56 > 2:50:57to discuss candidates.
2:50:57 > 2:50:59I'm sure that this was one of the key issues -
2:50:59 > 2:51:01there are several Ulster Unionists in for that seat.
2:51:01 > 2:51:03There are also DUP people who are vying for it.
2:51:03 > 2:51:06Whether they would even go for somebody who was outside of either
2:51:06 > 2:51:08of those parties potentially as a unifying force,
2:51:08 > 2:51:10they've got a pretty limited time to do that,
2:51:10 > 2:51:13but the fact that they're doing it internally without having it
2:51:13 > 2:51:16on the airwaves I think is probably quite a good sign from their
2:51:16 > 2:51:18point of view, if that's what they're trying to do.
2:51:18 > 2:51:22But huge tensions still between those parties as to who will run.
2:51:22 > 2:51:25Patricia, meantime, the anti-Brexit alliance very quickly lost its fizz,
2:51:25 > 2:51:29with quite a bit of rancour between some of the key players.
2:51:29 > 2:51:32Yeah, I think that that was an opportunity
2:51:32 > 2:51:36that perhaps was squandered in the sense that there may have been
2:51:36 > 2:51:39a chance there to agree candidates in some key constituencies.
2:51:39 > 2:51:42The Alliance Party was always outside of those negotiations,
2:51:42 > 2:51:45but what was interesting was the way that they stuck the boot into
2:51:45 > 2:51:49the Green Party and to others when those negotiations came to nothing.
2:51:49 > 2:51:53What's also interesting is the mood music in Sinn Fein.
2:51:53 > 2:51:56If you look that Chris Hazzard is being run as the candidate in
2:51:56 > 2:52:00South Down, with a very realistic possibility of taking that seat.
2:52:00 > 2:52:03You have Mairtin O Muilleoir in South Belfast,
2:52:03 > 2:52:06depending on how things fall there, in a perfect storm,
2:52:06 > 2:52:07he could take that seat.
2:52:07 > 2:52:10Two Sinn Fein ministers being put into key seats with the
2:52:10 > 2:52:13possibility of being elected shows that that party is looking at
2:52:13 > 2:52:15a long period of cold storage for Stormont.
2:52:15 > 2:52:18OK, the other issue that we need to touch on, of course, Sam,
2:52:18 > 2:52:20is Arlene Foster's move on the Irish language this week.
2:52:20 > 2:52:23Do you regard it as the gesture politics she famously said
2:52:23 > 2:52:25she doesn't do, or was it more than that?
2:52:25 > 2:52:28I think the truth is that all politicians engage
2:52:28 > 2:52:30in gesture politics. It's not necessarily a bad thing.
2:52:30 > 2:52:33I mean, we saw Martin McGuinness shake the hand of the Queen,
2:52:33 > 2:52:34that was gesture,
2:52:34 > 2:52:37it was also a very significant move by an Irish Republican.
2:52:37 > 2:52:39So we can be dismissive of these things.
2:52:39 > 2:52:42It suits politicians sometimes to be dismissive.
2:52:42 > 2:52:43It suits them at other points to play it up.
2:52:43 > 2:52:45I think it also has to be said,
2:52:45 > 2:52:48yesterday she was publicising the fact, Arlene Foster,
2:52:48 > 2:52:50that she had met the chief executive of Celtic Football Club,
2:52:50 > 2:52:54so I think she, it's very clear, has learned the lesson of the
2:52:54 > 2:52:57last election, in which she became a hate figure for nationalists.
2:52:57 > 2:53:00She wants to remove that plank from Sinn Fein in this election campaign.
2:53:00 > 2:53:02Patricia, briefly, a change of tone from Arlene Foster?
2:53:02 > 2:53:04And a very welcome one
2:53:04 > 2:53:06for those in the Irish language community.
2:53:06 > 2:53:09I think this has been a huge step for the DUP and for
2:53:09 > 2:53:11Arlene Foster on her personal journey.
2:53:11 > 2:53:14It's exactly as Sam has said in terms of the big gestures
2:53:14 > 2:53:16that we were used to from Martin McGuinness.
2:53:16 > 2:53:20Nobody should underestimate how big this has been for Arlene Foster.
2:53:20 > 2:53:23OK. Interesting point on which to end our discussion today.
2:53:23 > 2:53:26Thanks very much indeed. That's it from Sunday Politics from this week.
2:53:26 > 2:53:29Do join me for The View on Thursday evening.
2:53:29 > 2:53:32But, for now, from everyone in the team, thanks for watching. Bye-bye.