:01:16. > :01:25.Another road in the way forward for post primary education here, this
:01:26. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :33:27.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1921 seconds
:33:27. > :33:34.time in the Craigavon area. Join me in Northern Ireland. School may be
:33:34. > :33:39.out, but may be a way forward for post primary education? There has
:33:39. > :33:44.been no end of terror and cheer for politicians who feel this may be the
:33:44. > :33:50.end of schools in the Craigavon area. Joining me is Mervyn Storey
:33:50. > :33:56.and Chris Hazzard. And in the Republic, tensions rise as TDs
:33:56. > :34:01.prepare to vote on abortion legislation. Discussing that are
:34:01. > :34:07.Dearbhil McDonald from the Irish Independent and public relations
:34:07. > :34:12.consultant Nick Garbutt. Is a proposal to merge several post
:34:12. > :34:17.primary schools in County Armagh an attempt to end selection by the back
:34:17. > :34:20.door? The Dickson Plan has been used in Craigavon for the last 40 years.
:34:20. > :34:25.Children are selected to go to a grammar or high school at 14 instead
:34:25. > :34:29.of 11. The decision to merge the two grammar schools - Portadown College
:34:29. > :34:34.and Lurgan College - with their neighbouring high schools has
:34:34. > :34:39.sharply divided the community. Joining me is Mervyn Storey and Sinn
:34:39. > :34:43.Fein's Chris Hazzard. Thank you for joining us. Mervyn Storey, this is a
:34:43. > :34:47.decision taken by the southern education board, southern -- subject
:34:47. > :34:52.to further consultation. The minister says he will listen to all
:34:52. > :34:55.representations before he makes the final call. What is the problem? The
:34:55. > :34:59.problem is the Minister has nailed his colours to the mast this week.
:34:59. > :35:05.In terms of the Dickson Plan, he sees it as part of the problem
:35:05. > :35:11.rather than the solution. There is a serious question mark over the
:35:11. > :35:14.integrity of the process, the discussions it would seem that took
:35:14. > :35:21.place in the Department for Education prior to the board taking
:35:21. > :35:25.its decision in relation to this matter, so the independence of this
:35:25. > :35:29.process is questionable. There is a clear majority of parents, 87% of
:35:29. > :35:33.parents in the Dickson Plan area, who want it to remain. Clearly the
:35:33. > :35:40.Minister and the board have not listened to that expression of the
:35:40. > :35:43.opinion. The Minister has been very clear about this, he said he wants
:35:43. > :35:47.the best possible education for every child in the area. He does not
:35:47. > :35:52.deny that some children do well in the current system but he wants
:35:52. > :35:58.every child to have that opportunity. And so do we, we want
:35:58. > :36:04.the same for all children. If there has to be elements of
:36:04. > :36:09.change to the system, no system of change -- no system is perfect,
:36:09. > :36:16.however, what is very clear is that we have a situation now where we are
:36:16. > :36:20.basically being told that, despite what the public opinion is, despite
:36:20. > :36:25.the other issues of real concerns, it seems as though the control
:36:25. > :36:30.sector is being bullied into following the line of the maintained
:36:30. > :36:34.sector, when the maintained sector is unhappy with following the
:36:34. > :36:39.direction the bishops have given in academic selection. The controlled
:36:39. > :36:45.sector should not be treated in that way because of others. What about
:36:45. > :36:52.the notion of parental choice? Mervyn Storey says 87% of parents
:36:52. > :36:56.want the system to stay the way it This is the south-eastern border,
:36:56. > :37:04.and we must remember that five of the seven schools Mervyn Storey is
:37:04. > :37:09.referring to have supported the move is. -- the moves. The Catholic
:37:09. > :37:13.sector have proposed an nonvoluntary, all-inclusive grammar
:37:14. > :37:17.school, so this does not have to be the end of grammar schools. There is
:37:17. > :37:23.a question on the controlled sector, why do you not open up to every
:37:23. > :37:30.child in this area? It is the southern board area, Doucet
:37:30. > :37:33.south-eastern. There is now -- you said south-eastern. There is now
:37:33. > :37:36.consultation. The question is, will the Minister will listen to Michael
:37:36. > :37:42.and if he can be persuaded by Mervyn Storey and others that he has got
:37:43. > :37:48.this wrong, Mickey be persuaded to not go down this road? -- might he
:37:48. > :37:54.be persuaded? I have said that he will listen to
:37:54. > :37:58.all arguments from the table, but he cannot argue with statistics.
:37:58. > :38:03.you can argue with statistics, Mervyn Storey will produce other
:38:03. > :38:08.statistics. 43% of children are underachieving in the Dickson Plan.
:38:08. > :38:13.That is far worse than the average rate across the North. Where is the
:38:13. > :38:17.evidence that changing the system will address that problem? Clearly
:38:17. > :38:22.we do not have that evidence, because the Ofsted report last week
:38:22. > :38:26.from England clearly demonstrated that children are not performing
:38:27. > :38:32.well in a comprehensive system. The use of this figure, 43%, is an
:38:32. > :38:39.absolute misnomer. What we are doing is putting all of the schools in the
:38:39. > :38:42.Dickson Plan. They are maintained, integrated and controlled, -- the
:38:42. > :38:48.maintained, the integrated and the controlled, they are put altogether
:38:48. > :38:51.and it is a very different picture. The bishops have failed in terms of
:38:51. > :38:57.persuading the Roman Catholic community in Northern Ireland that
:38:57. > :39:03.there is merit in moving away from high academic achieving schools.
:39:03. > :39:07.They have not completely failed. if you talk to parents in the
:39:07. > :39:10.Craigavon area, they are not convinced the plan for the
:39:10. > :39:15.maintained sector is the way in which they should proceed, because
:39:15. > :39:18.now we have parents in the Catholic sector looking for places in
:39:18. > :39:25.nondenominational grammar schools. I think that is an issue that Catholic
:39:25. > :39:29.bishops need to take seriously. What do you want to see happening
:39:29. > :39:33.now to Michael you have tried to go over the head of the education
:39:33. > :39:37.minister. You have asked the First Minister to allow the decision
:39:37. > :39:43.ultimately to be taken by the Assembly? Queer as the democracy in
:39:44. > :39:46.that? -- where is the democracy in that? The Minister himself has
:39:46. > :39:50.unfortunately muddied the waters in the comments he made this week where
:39:51. > :39:55.he was critical of the Dickson Plan. He is the person who tells us this
:39:55. > :39:59.plan will have to come to him, and he will in a dispassionate and
:39:59. > :40:05.independent way make a decision. He has already decided and that is why
:40:05. > :40:09.I believe the executive has to call this decision into question. What
:40:09. > :40:15.happens if we go down that road, where the power is taken out of
:40:15. > :40:19.Europe Party colleagues' hands to make the decision? The education
:40:19. > :40:24.minister is responsible for the education attainment of all the
:40:24. > :40:29.children in the north. We have a situation where 43%, nearly half of
:40:29. > :40:35.the children at GCSE level, are not achieving five GCSEs. That indicates
:40:35. > :40:39.to us change is needed and is needed right now. Mervyn Storey, before we
:40:40. > :40:47.move on, I need to ask you for your response to comments from Donal
:40:47. > :40:52.McKeown, the auxiliary Bishop of Conor Ryan down. He said your Party
:40:52. > :40:55.leader's -- corner -- Down and Connor. He said your Party leader's
:40:55. > :41:03.comments were nakedly sectarian. This is not the first time my Party
:41:03. > :41:07.leader has been misquoted and misrepresented. Donal McKeown came
:41:07. > :41:11.out and said that in a very negative attitude. Ten days later he had to
:41:11. > :41:15.change his tune because he was on the wrong side of the argument. The
:41:15. > :41:18.debate about education was commenced by my Party leader and is now
:41:19. > :41:22.continuing, and I think the bishop needs to listen to his own
:41:22. > :41:26.community, see what is happening within his own community and
:41:26. > :41:30.recognise that the apartheid in terms of educational provision
:41:30. > :41:34.cannot continue and we need a resolution. I think that that is
:41:34. > :41:39.where the bishops, rather than protecting their own side, need to
:41:39. > :41:43.come into the 21st-century. Thank you both very much indeed for now.
:41:43. > :41:46.Let's hear from Dearbhil McDonald and Nick Garbutt, today's
:41:46. > :41:51.commentators. First of all, divisions over postprimary education
:41:51. > :41:54.in this part of the world simply will not go away. They will not come
:41:54. > :41:59.it will be difficult to resolve. To look at it coldly and
:41:59. > :42:05.objectively, we have a real crisis in our education system, because we
:42:05. > :42:08.have too many young people in -- leaving school who are not fit for
:42:08. > :42:15.the workplace. At the same time we have too many schools, because you
:42:15. > :42:19.are dividing by academic selection but also along religious lines. It
:42:19. > :42:22.is expensive to educate its at the moment, and unless there is
:42:22. > :42:26.something of rationalisation, we are not ever going to get any better. It
:42:26. > :42:31.is a huge issue for politicians to grapple with, and that is probably
:42:31. > :42:34.why we have not made a great deal of progress in the past few years.
:42:34. > :42:42.Dearbhil McDonald, what is your interpretation? You went through
:42:42. > :42:47.education in this part of the world, but you now live outside the area,
:42:48. > :42:52.what do you think? I benefited from the selection in Northern Ireland,
:42:52. > :42:56.the 11 plus, which is a grotesque example in my view in the Republic,
:42:56. > :43:00.it was streamlined later, and also on a faith basis, I attended a
:43:00. > :43:04.Catholic maintained grammar school and did very well from it. But there
:43:04. > :43:09.is an apartheid in education in the north. If you think in terms of a
:43:09. > :43:13.shared future, this is something that has to be grappled across
:43:13. > :43:16.Ulster. We are having a different debate in the Republican terms of
:43:16. > :43:21.primary schools, 90% of which are Catholic maintained. A lot of people
:43:21. > :43:25.are Catholic by default in Republic of Ireland, virtual -- by virtue of
:43:25. > :43:28.the need to get their children into the education facility of their
:43:29. > :43:32.choice. There are some schools in Dublin where there are no white
:43:32. > :43:36.children, for example. On both sides of the border we are struggling with
:43:36. > :43:44.this need. It is an apartheid that needs to be addressed. The education
:43:44. > :43:50.system is one of the main prisons we have to get through to a shared
:43:50. > :43:53.future. It is contributed, we believe it there now. There was a
:43:53. > :43:56.time in the Republic when the church and the state had a close
:43:56. > :43:59.relationship but times have certainly changed as DD is prepared
:43:59. > :44:04.to vote this week on the controversial Abortion Bill.
:44:04. > :44:08.The government is ignoring the Catholic Church's objections. -- as
:44:08. > :44:14.TDss prepare to vote. There was a time when the church and the state
:44:14. > :44:17.had a cosy relationship, but the revelations of child sex abuse by
:44:17. > :44:21.priests and the cover-ups by bishops more worried about the church's
:44:21. > :44:26.reputation than the plight of victims changed all that.
:44:26. > :44:33.I am proud to stand here as a public representative, as Taoiseach who
:44:33. > :44:37.happens to be Catholic, but not a catholic Taoiseach.
:44:37. > :44:41.Abortion as an issue arouses strong passions and the Taoiseach made
:44:41. > :44:46.those remarks in ranch -- answer to a question on the subject. The
:44:46. > :44:50.government's proposal is divisive, to allow terminations when three
:44:50. > :44:54.medics all agreed a mother is suicidal because of her pregnancy.
:44:54. > :44:58.Anti-abortion campaigners say the Bill will for the first time allow
:44:58. > :45:02.for the intentional killing of the unborn in the Republic. For them it
:45:02. > :45:07.is not just a religious but human rights issue, as the mother and
:45:07. > :45:11.foetus have equal rights to life. I feel everyone has a right to life,
:45:11. > :45:15.especially those in the womb of a mother. No matter how much oil has
:45:16. > :45:19.been conceived it has a right to life. As Catholics, as catholic
:45:19. > :45:25.priests and a catholic nation, we have a human rights to highlight the
:45:25. > :45:30.importance of life from the womb to the tomb.
:45:30. > :45:35.Eamon Martin, the incoming Catholic Primate, said that those TDss and
:45:35. > :45:40.senators who voted for the Abortion Bill will excommunicate themselves.
:45:40. > :45:45.Senator Ronan Mullen, who has strong pro-life views, says excommunication
:45:45. > :45:48.is a red herring. Politicians like to say down here that they are
:45:48. > :45:57.somehow standing up to the Catholic Church. That is kind of juvenile at
:45:57. > :46:07.this stage. This is an issue about a child's life and the mother's best
:46:07. > :46:09.
:46:09. > :46:12.interests. The value shared by the genteel manner born novelist here.
:46:12. > :46:16.In her newspaper column she praised the Taoiseach for not bending the
:46:16. > :46:19.knee to the church on abortion and for ignoring excommunication.
:46:19. > :46:26.There is talk about it being a red herring, but it was a red herring
:46:26. > :46:30.tangled by Seaview -- senior clerics and it has beaten the Calcutta and
:46:30. > :46:37.politicians back into line before, but not any more. -- recalcitrant
:46:37. > :46:40.politicians. The Doyle is due to have the first of the votes on the
:46:40. > :46:43.Bill in the coming days, with the legislation expected to pass
:46:43. > :46:52.comfortably, another sign of the changing structure and state
:46:52. > :46:53.relationship. -- church and state relationship.
:46:53. > :46:57.Joining me now is Father Tim Bartlett.
:46:57. > :47:01.Don't you have to accept at this stage that the Catholic Church is
:47:01. > :47:05.not bigger than the democratic process? I think this issue of
:47:05. > :47:11.abortion cannot be reduced to an issue of church and state. That is a
:47:11. > :47:18.hackneyed, 70s, 80s debate in the Republic. A priest of my generation
:47:18. > :47:22.comes to this debate as a citizen, who with other citizens, in fact
:47:22. > :47:26.40,000 citizens who gathered for a pro-life rally, two weeks ago. It
:47:26. > :47:29.was not organised by the church. Those who were there included
:47:29. > :47:33.bishops who came voluntarily, but they were surrounded by people of
:47:33. > :47:37.every age who had no connection to the church because they share a
:47:37. > :47:45.commitment to the gym in principle that it is never right to directly
:47:45. > :47:50.and intentionally kill an innocent person. -- to the human principle.
:47:50. > :47:55.Forget the church-state side of that, it is not about flat any more.
:47:55. > :47:59.It is not just Catholics, despite your carefully chosen clips. It may
:47:59. > :48:02.be it is not just Catholics, and it may be that you don't like to
:48:03. > :48:09.characterise it as church against state, but whether you like that or
:48:09. > :48:14.not it is how many people see it. Martina Devlin said this effectively
:48:14. > :48:18.comes down to democracy against theocracy.
:48:18. > :48:25.No, it doesn't. A pluralist, diverse democracy allows space for all
:48:25. > :48:28.voices. What is really happening is increasingly politicians and so on
:48:28. > :48:38.are not only marginalising voices that don't suit their agenda,
:48:38. > :48:39.
:48:39. > :48:44.including the church, which is not pluralist, diverse democracy, but
:48:44. > :48:50.the Taoiseach and particular and others are -- in particular, are
:48:50. > :48:55.forcing the issue and forcing people to vote in a particular way. That is
:48:55. > :48:59.dictatorship, not diverse, pluralist democracy. Give us a free vote and
:48:59. > :49:03.let us see what democracy, free from the political whip, actually
:49:03. > :49:09.produces. If what you are saying is correct, why did the incoming
:49:09. > :49:13.Catholic Primate Eamon Martin say that those TDss who voted in favour
:49:14. > :49:18.will excommunicate themselves two that is a fact. If they are memories
:49:18. > :49:22.of the Catholic Church and freely assented to be so, this is an issue
:49:22. > :49:26.of fundamental importance. -- if they are members of the Catholic
:49:26. > :49:29.Church. The issue of excommunication is not the right issue in terms of
:49:29. > :49:34.what might happen if somebody votes for this.
:49:34. > :49:39.Everyone should be aware that voting for this Bill is, without any
:49:39. > :49:44.question or doubt, cooperating in a mortal evil. It has serious
:49:44. > :49:49.consequences for every individual. What about the Catholic elected
:49:49. > :49:52.representative in the Republic who does not share your view? They have
:49:52. > :49:56.to explain to everyone why they believe that is not the case.
:49:56. > :50:05.However, there is no objective or rational way that this Bill can be
:50:05. > :50:10.squared with the pro-life position. How can you square pro-life view
:50:10. > :50:13.with the intentional killing of end -- innocent children? This Bill is
:50:13. > :50:17.medically unjustified and unnecessary. It is legally
:50:17. > :50:22.unjustified and unnecessary and in our view it is constitutionally
:50:22. > :50:25.challengeable on a lot of fronts, including the right of individual
:50:25. > :50:28.politicians to exercise their constitutional rights in relation to
:50:28. > :50:37.conscience and religious belief to not have any penalty applied to
:50:37. > :50:42.them. You say that this is a -- not an issue on church and state and it
:50:42. > :50:46.is cliched and hackneyed to say that, yet you chant -- turn it into
:50:46. > :50:52.church against state. The Taoiseach said I am a Taoiseach who is
:50:52. > :50:55.catholic but not a catholic Taoiseach. The irony is that a
:50:55. > :51:03.Catholic politician should be able to say I am a catholic, I am a
:51:03. > :51:08.citizen, and my catholic faith informs my human reason about this
:51:08. > :51:12.value. They should actually have this base to be Catholic, not have
:51:12. > :51:17.to push that to the side. That is the real dynamic going on in our
:51:17. > :51:23.society, we want to marginalise all sorts of faith and create a new,
:51:23. > :51:25.secular orthodoxy. There is no neutral view of society. Everyone
:51:25. > :51:30.come including catholic politicians, should be able to see what they
:51:30. > :51:34.believe openly. Thank you, let me bring in Dearbhil McDonald, who
:51:34. > :51:37.takes a keen interest in this particular subject. But is Father
:51:37. > :51:40.Tim Bartlett have a point when he says it is not in a point when he
:51:40. > :51:46.says it is not innocently a surplus extends about church and state?
:51:46. > :51:51.He is, in this sense. When the original pro-life amendment
:51:51. > :51:56.came into being the church had a lot of influence at that stage. Over a
:51:56. > :52:01.30 year period since 1992, the X case, which we are no legislating
:52:01. > :52:06.for, the influence has waned. They are still a powerful voice, but the
:52:06. > :52:10.reason it is not a simple democracy-theocracy debate is that
:52:10. > :52:16.public opinion in rock -- Ireland has changed. We are legislating for
:52:16. > :52:20.the X case, as far back as 1992. There was a recent opinion poll
:52:20. > :52:22.commissioned by the Irish Times showing more than eight out of ten
:52:22. > :52:29.supported lawful termination of pregnancy in circumstances of rape
:52:29. > :52:33.and incest. Much of the debate in the Republic has been, why are we
:52:33. > :52:39.not including fatal faecal abnormalities? There have been some
:52:39. > :52:43.interesting developments since 1980. And since 1992. The Supreme
:52:43. > :52:48.Court recently had a ruling that addressed the staters of the unborn.
:52:48. > :52:53.In the context of a frozen embryo, there was a challenge to that. The
:52:53. > :52:58.protection for the unborn is after -- for the unborn is after
:52:58. > :53:01.implantation. Within a few years we will have a fatal abnormality case
:53:01. > :53:05.before our courts and it is arguable on the Supreme Court's bases that
:53:05. > :53:08.will be allowed under the Constitution. If the church calls
:53:08. > :53:14.for a referendum I don't know whether... The main issue here is
:53:14. > :53:18.with suicide, and twice the electorate in the Republic of
:53:18. > :53:23.Ireland has rejected excluding on grounds of suicide. It is no longer
:53:23. > :53:26.simply church and state but not for the reasons suggested. What you are
:53:26. > :53:32.saying is in fact there could be a much wider debate about abortion
:53:32. > :53:36.being allowed in more circumstances than would be allowed under the
:53:36. > :53:43.proposed legislation? Absolutely. The same opinion poll showed a huge
:53:43. > :53:47.drop in support, only four out of ten supported in that case. I have
:53:47. > :53:51.to say that other people other than the church have expressed concerns
:53:51. > :53:54.about the issue of suicide. Closing sentence if you would, Father Tim
:53:54. > :54:01.Bartlett, on that point by Dearbhil McDonald, that it could be about
:54:01. > :54:04.more than it is? It is interesting that opinion polls show that we are
:54:04. > :54:10.this debate has focused, on the inclusion of suicide as a grounds
:54:10. > :54:13.for abortion, that the medical evidence jest this is not the case
:54:14. > :54:17.for abortion and will lead to mental health difficulties for all women,
:54:17. > :54:21.where it has focused on that the opinion polls have come down.
:54:21. > :54:24.debate is only starting and let us have it as equal citizens with an
:54:24. > :54:30.equal right to be heard. Thank you very much for coming in to join us.
:54:30. > :54:38.This is a look at the political week gone past in 60 seconds with Gareth
:54:38. > :54:43.Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly came under fire from Unionists at his behaviour
:54:43. > :54:51.at a north Belfast parade. Anyone that views the video evidence will
:54:51. > :54:55.consider him to have been reckless and ill-advised. The Deputy First
:54:55. > :55:00.Minister backed his fellow MLA and said he was happy to speak to the
:55:00. > :55:05.Orange order about contentious parades. What people need to do is
:55:05. > :55:10.set down in a room together and worked out a solution. At
:55:10. > :55:15.Westminster, Alistair MacDonald was in trouble with the DUP.
:55:15. > :55:21.The DUP, Mr Speaker, are bigots and sectarians and want to drive a wedge
:55:21. > :55:25.through our society. And Jimmy Spratt apologised after referring to
:55:25. > :55:31.opponents of the peace and reconciliation centre at the Maze as
:55:31. > :55:36.nutters. You know what you said. You do not know what I said. I heard
:55:36. > :55:43.what you said. Gareth Gordon with the weak and sick
:55:43. > :55:48.stay seconds, and when the Hansard transcript was published it was
:55:48. > :55:53.shown that Jimmy Spratt had used the phrase nutters. Nick Garbutt, the
:55:53. > :55:58.performance of our politicians over the past seven days? It hasn't been
:55:58. > :56:02.great, has it? We were all in our best behaviour during the G8 summit
:56:02. > :56:10.and it is all deteriorating. Bad time, as well, with the marching