:01:34. > :01:39.SPEAKER: WHITE And same-sex marriage, the parties in the
:01:39. > :01:49.assembly are hopelessly divide on it. So is from any point in
:01:49. > :01:49.
:01:49. > :37:07.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2117 seconds
:37:07. > :37:09.Welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. It is one of the
:37:09. > :37:14.most controversial issues of the moment, whether or not people of
:37:14. > :37:18.the same sex should be allowed to get married. Tomorrow a joint
:37:18. > :37:23.motion in support of the move will be debated in the assembly, but the
:37:23. > :37:28.local parties are hopelessly split on the issue, so there is little
:37:28. > :37:33.chance of consensus. With me is the Green Party's Steven Agnew. Plus
:37:33. > :37:37.tens of thousands on the streets of Belfast to commemorate the signing
:37:37. > :37:47.of the Ulster covenant. Is this a blueprint for future
:37:47. > :37:53.
:37:53. > :37:56.Now gay marriage is rarely out of the news these days and there is no
:37:56. > :38:05.shortage of controversy surrounding the idea here and the rest of the
:38:05. > :38:10.UK. The views of the veteran Ulster unionist on the subject led to his
:38:10. > :38:14.departure from the party. It is up for debate in the assembly tomorrow.
:38:14. > :38:17.Sinn Fein and the Green Party have brought the motion in support of it.
:38:17. > :38:21.Steven Agnew the leader of the Green Party in Northern Ireland is
:38:21. > :38:24.with me now. Hello. Thank you for joining us on the politics
:38:24. > :38:28.programme. Tell me why you think that it is worth the assembly's
:38:28. > :38:32.time to be debating an issue, which frankly you are unlikely to get
:38:32. > :38:37.through? I think it is important we do have the debate. For example we
:38:37. > :38:39.have the Prime Minister of the UK, the leader of the Tory party able
:38:39. > :38:43.to say he can support equal marriage but in Northern Ireland we
:38:43. > :38:47.haven't had the debate in the assembly chamber, the chamber
:38:47. > :38:50.decide that the legislation on this issue. We have several partnerships
:38:50. > :38:54.but civil partnerships are not equal to marriage and they are
:38:54. > :38:58.separate. We talked about a shared future. We want the shared future
:38:58. > :39:01.for everyone and not this idea of separate but equal. Currently, if
:39:01. > :39:07.you are in a civil partnership you can't adopt in Northern Ireland,
:39:07. > :39:11.although you can in England, Scotland and Wales and if you are a
:39:11. > :39:15.religious couple, you can't get, have any form of religious ceremony,
:39:15. > :39:19.even if there is a church willing to do so. So the churches are
:39:19. > :39:27.barred from performing civil partnerships or same-sex marriage
:39:27. > :39:33.by the lausm we any is an issue of religious freedom. A couple who of
:39:33. > :39:39.mixed sex can have a religious wed wuing two devout Christians can't
:39:39. > :39:42.have a religious ceremony in a same sex relationship. There are those
:39:42. > :39:46.within the gay community who feel it has gone far enough and there
:39:46. > :39:52.are people from that community who would say gay marriage, we don't
:39:52. > :39:56.need. That is up for those to decide, this is an issue of
:39:56. > :40:00.religious freedom and freedom of conscience, if we passed this
:40:00. > :40:03.legislation, if the motion were to pass and be followed by legislation,
:40:03. > :40:06.we would have the situation where people would have choice, people in
:40:06. > :40:11.same sex relationship would have the choice to get married. Churches
:40:11. > :40:14.would have the choice about whether or not they would allow same sex
:40:14. > :40:19.couples to have religious ceremonies. It is some timeed
:40:19. > :40:24.perceived the church is against it, there are groups such as Changing
:40:24. > :40:30.Attitudes who want to see equal marriage. I spoke to a Reverend who
:40:30. > :40:33.would like to perform same-sex marriage. So it, there are various
:40:33. > :40:40.views within the religious institution. Do you know how many
:40:40. > :40:45.couples would be affected? Can you put a figure on it? We have about
:40:45. > :40:51.100 couples perform civil partner - - partnerships. 650 I think since
:40:51. > :40:55.the legislation. So tiny? It is not about numbers. It is about civil
:40:55. > :40:59.rights and equality. We have homophobia priv lent in society and
:40:59. > :41:02.the state should send a message that same sex couples are equal to
:41:02. > :41:07.couples of different sex. It is the substance of marriage, the
:41:07. > :41:10.commitment and love that is important, not the form, that is
:41:10. > :41:13.the gender. The difficulty is when you take this to the floor of the
:41:13. > :41:17.assembly tomorrow, you are not going to get agreement, because
:41:17. > :41:23.there is a huge amount of division. I will get your thoughts on that in
:41:23. > :41:30.a moment. Let us remind ourself of what Jonathan Bell had to say. He
:41:30. > :41:35.talked about it on the floor of the assembly just last week. There are
:41:35. > :41:41.no plans to change the definition of marriage in Northern Ireland. To
:41:41. > :41:44.do so, as members would know, would require the agreement of the
:41:44. > :41:50.executive, and parties on the executive are hopelessly divided in
:41:50. > :41:57.ters of a position in relation to that. The DUP is clear they see gay
:41:57. > :42:01.marriage as an oxy moron, to they see marriage between a man and a
:42:01. > :42:06.woman, the Alliance Party and Sinn Fein are united in their position
:42:06. > :42:16.of support for gay marriage, and if you want to hear both sides of the
:42:16. > :42:16.
:42:16. > :42:20.argument you can ask Mike Nesbitt and Alistair MacDonald. The SDLP
:42:20. > :42:24.and the Ulster Unionist do not have united fronts on the. On flid we
:42:24. > :42:28.had a petition of concern placed by the DUP which means even if you get
:42:28. > :42:31.a majority torges it will be overturned because you need cross
:42:31. > :42:35.community support. Two points on that. One from speaking to the
:42:35. > :42:40.other parties, this is going to be a close vote. Too close to call at
:42:40. > :42:43.this stage, so the assembly is round 50-50 so it is not going to
:42:43. > :42:47.be a clear majority against by any means but the petition of concern
:42:47. > :42:55.has been abused. The petition legislation which put the petition
:42:55. > :42:59.of concern in place was designed to protect minorities, from abuse of
:42:59. > :43:04.the majority, and in this case the petition of concern is being used
:43:04. > :43:09.to prevent the extension of rights to a minority group. That not what
:43:09. > :43:12.it was for. They are entitled to use it. It is an abuse of the
:43:12. > :43:17.system. In your view. The whole point of the petition of concern
:43:18. > :43:23.was to stop one side of the House imposing its willing on the -- will
:43:23. > :43:26.on the other side. We have people on both side support, people on
:43:26. > :43:30.both sides against. It is not what the petition of concern was for.
:43:30. > :43:35.What happens tomorrow is that you have potentially a heated debate on
:43:35. > :43:38.the floor of the assembly chamber, and you allow people to restate
:43:38. > :43:42.trenchant positions which perhaps doesn't move the debate on. We
:43:42. > :43:46.might get a lot of heat tomorrow and very little light. How does
:43:46. > :43:51.that help your case? We haven't had any signal from the body that can
:43:51. > :43:58.legislate what its views are, we have never had a debate on this
:43:58. > :44:01.issue. The body that legislates can't make up its mind, that is the
:44:01. > :44:06.point. Half the assembly supports this, that means we can see how
:44:06. > :44:10.much work is to do. You want to put down a marker, is that what you are
:44:10. > :44:16.saying. We want to get it debated by the people who legislate. There
:44:16. > :44:22.is all these polls out there, saying, X percent support it but we
:44:22. > :44:25.need to know what the people who legislate think. The fact that
:44:25. > :44:28.there's been pointed out some of the parties are split, is meaning
:44:28. > :44:32.the conversation is taking place within the party, so it is taking
:44:32. > :44:36.the issue forward, because people are discussing it. How will you
:44:36. > :44:40.judge whether or not tomorrow's debate has been a success from your
:44:40. > :44:43.point of view. What is your yard stick? It is a success because
:44:43. > :44:46.within parties we are discussing that, that is a step forward. We
:44:46. > :44:49.have a Conservative Prime Minister who is in favour of equal marriage,
:44:49. > :44:53.we should at least be able to debate it in Northern Ireland. But
:44:53. > :44:57.I think when we see the numbers n the assembly, it will give other
:44:57. > :45:01.MLAs the strength to come out next time round, when they see the
:45:01. > :45:11.amount of support there is for this. We will watch the debate with
:45:11. > :45:15.interest. Thank you very much for coming in to join us. Tens of
:45:15. > :45:19.thousands of people marched to Stormont yesterday to mark the
:45:19. > :45:22.centenary of the signing of Ulster covenant. It was one of the biggest
:45:22. > :45:27.parades in HIVing memory and involved one of the largest
:45:27. > :45:32.policing operation in decade. A feeder parade path a Catholic
:45:32. > :45:40.Church was trouble free. The signing of the covenant laid the
:45:40. > :45:43.foundation for the partition of Ireland. 100 years on, unionist
:45:43. > :45:48.leaders once again signed the covenant. It was a show of unity at
:45:48. > :45:54.the start of a day rich in historical symbolism. But for a
:45:54. > :45:58.modern day unionist leader, it was also an opportunity to look forward.
:45:58. > :46:02.The context is very different today. We now see there is support from
:46:02. > :46:05.the union across the unity. I believe we have to build on that,
:46:05. > :46:10.encouraging people, whatever their backgrounds maybe, to give their
:46:10. > :46:12.support and allegiance to the union. Outside the City Hall no-one could
:46:12. > :46:22.question the allegiance of the thousands who gathered for the
:46:22. > :46:24.
:46:24. > :46:30.march to Stormont. Among them many dressed in period costume.
:46:30. > :46:37.Including Jackie MacDonald who led ranks of men dressed in the uniform
:46:37. > :46:40.of the Ulster Defence Union. Members of the loyal orders from
:46:40. > :46:44.England, Scotland and the Irish Republic took part in the six mile
:46:44. > :46:47.procession. What is happening today is a celebration of a resistance,
:46:47. > :46:52.to somebody taking away the identity you were born with, and
:46:52. > :46:56.with which you were educated to be, feel a British citizen, part of the
:46:56. > :47:02.United Kingdom, that is very important to the people here today
:47:02. > :47:07.P There is a tremendous day to celebrate the centenary of the
:47:07. > :47:12.Ulster covenant. Tremendous to see the crowds that are here. Very much
:47:12. > :47:16.shows that Britishness is still alive in Northern Ireland today.
:47:16. > :47:24.took five hours for everyone to reach Stormont, but once there, in
:47:24. > :47:28.the shadow of Sir Edward Carson, a chance to buy some refreshment and
:47:28. > :47:32.merchandise before a religious service. Today as Lord and
:47:32. > :47:35.saviour... Not even welcomed the parade, a fact made obvious by the
:47:35. > :47:40.heavy security presence. It was the biggest policing operation in the
:47:40. > :47:44.city for 20 years P -- years. have seen a lot of people with
:47:44. > :47:48.smiles on their face watching it and participating and people going
:47:48. > :47:52.about their business. What we are seeing is a dignified parade and I
:47:52. > :47:57.am grateful for that. I hope today will start something that next year
:47:57. > :48:02.will turn into a peaceful July and August. There was relief that the
:48:02. > :48:06.large numbers of police on duty did not have to deal with any disorder.
:48:06. > :48:11.But questions will be raised in the days ahead about the conduct of
:48:11. > :48:16.some band, which did not follow the parade commission's ruling. Only
:48:16. > :48:22.sacred music was to be played outside two Catholic Church tons
:48:22. > :48:32.route. This was largely followed at St Patricks on Donegal Street. The
:48:32. > :48:39.
:48:39. > :48:43.same was not true at St Matthews on Outside saith math knews not just a
:48:43. > :48:47.handful but it is safe to say most of the band taking part openly
:48:47. > :48:56.defied the parade's commission, determination. What need to happen
:48:56. > :48:59.is the PSNI need to bring a case to the PPS. The PSNI says it will
:48:59. > :49:04.investigate any breeches but it welcomed the efforts of those be
:49:04. > :49:12.signed the scenes to ensure this much anticipated parade passed off
:49:12. > :49:15.peacefully. Alex Cane and Noel Doran with with me now. You were
:49:15. > :49:20.watching the parade Alex, what did you make of it. I was up at
:49:20. > :49:26.Stormont for three hour, it was bigger than anyone expected. And a
:49:26. > :49:31.very good atmosphere, very relaxed it was like Orange heaven. They
:49:31. > :49:36.could play what they want, say what they wanted. Very relaxed
:49:36. > :49:40.atmosphere. Maybe that is the solution to the parading issue, to
:49:41. > :49:46.go somewhere where there are not restrictions placed. That is true,
:49:46. > :49:52.it is how you get them from A to B. One thing has come out of this,
:49:52. > :49:57.after the kf orange admitted they changed the rules. They can't get
:49:57. > :50:02.the next Easter or July 129 or next celebration and not have this sort
:50:02. > :50:05.of thing, they need to be talking now, because I think the protestors
:50:06. > :50:11.yesterday, they should be welcomed for what they did. They didn't
:50:11. > :50:14.throw bricks or bottles. It was mostly peaceful. It was a two sided
:50:14. > :50:19.peacefulness. Noel, are you relieved that it passed off as
:50:19. > :50:23.peacefully and positively as it seemed to do? I think at Stormont,
:50:24. > :50:27.everything but fine as Alex says, and there was a positive atmosphere.
:50:27. > :50:30.There wasn't on the Newtonards Road which is really the big issue
:50:30. > :50:34.coming out of yesterday's demonstration, the restrictions
:50:34. > :50:39.were clear, it wasn't a small minority, it was a considerable
:50:39. > :50:42.number of the band. This is in Peter Robinson's constituency. He
:50:42. > :50:48.spoke for the need of the union to appeal across the community. There
:50:48. > :50:53.was very much a message from some people to be pro-union was to be
:50:53. > :50:57.anti-Catholic, that will have to be addressed by the Parades Commission
:50:57. > :51:01.and senior politicians. How much further do you think it need to be
:51:01. > :51:06.taken? Are we looking at evidence gathering and possible prosecution?
:51:06. > :51:12.The focus as we heard from the report was St Matthew's church on
:51:12. > :51:17.the Newtonards Road, that is the one remaining issue of contention.
:51:17. > :51:23.There were some evidence of breaches in Donegal Street. On a
:51:23. > :51:26.different level. At a very different level. We are conscious
:51:26. > :51:31.the Orange Order took a positive step, that needs to be developed
:51:31. > :51:34.and exploited. The rules were flaunted yesterday, people's noses
:51:34. > :51:38.were rubbed in it on the lower Newtonards Road and it is not the
:51:38. > :51:42.first time it has happened. The Parades Commission is to have
:51:42. > :51:45.credibility that need to be addressed. How should the loyal
:51:45. > :51:51.orders address that issue Alex? It is the one element of yesterday
:51:51. > :51:55.that may spoil the party in the longer term. It is going to come
:51:55. > :51:58.back and aunt them. When the Parades Commission have to review
:51:58. > :52:02.next year's parades that I have to look back at what happened
:52:02. > :52:06.yesterday. They will say to the Orange Order, the bands breached
:52:06. > :52:10.the conditions we set down, we will have to put down different
:52:10. > :52:19.conditions. It was a mistake, but the other problem is even if it
:52:19. > :52:23.wasn't the parades economies, if any other body did it, I think will
:52:23. > :52:29.will be band who breach any condition. What about the brorer
:52:29. > :52:35.message that might be taken out of yesterday's events, are we seeing a
:52:35. > :52:41.move to greater unionist uni -- unity. We saw them gather to sign
:52:41. > :52:47.the covenant and talk about issues about being unionists together.
:52:47. > :52:53.in terms of what Peter Robinson is saying there is a move, he sees the
:52:53. > :52:59.council of the union, he wants them to work together. Yet, yesterday,
:52:59. > :53:01.Mike Nesbitt, Peter Robinson not an Orangeman what unionist need to be
:53:01. > :53:05.careful about, the celebration of the covenant an the Northern
:53:05. > :53:09.Ireland seen tenry in a decade's time, they can't be seen as a
:53:09. > :53:14.triumph of one side over the other. It has to be clocktive celebration.
:53:14. > :53:17.If it isn't you are going to keep the us and them for ever. Do you
:53:17. > :53:21.think nationalists will be concerned about the notion of
:53:21. > :53:25.greater unionist unity if that is what comes out? If that happens it
:53:25. > :53:29.happens. You could say that Peter Robinson may no longer sees the
:53:29. > :53:33.Ulster Unionist as any form of threat and is happy to have them at
:53:33. > :53:38.his shoulder rather than taking them on. We have seen unity in
:53:38. > :53:41.different forms in the past. I doesn't tend to last that long T
:53:41. > :53:51.Ulster Unionist has been through so many changes, it is difficult to
:53:51. > :53:53.
:53:53. > :53:56.predict where it will be in a year or two's time. You might see joint
:53:56. > :53:59.candidates in forthcoming by- elections, Mid Ulster people are
:53:59. > :54:02.talking about. That is a slightly unusual one. Martin McGuinness has
:54:02. > :54:06.confirmed he will stand down. He has confirmed that Sinn Fein will
:54:06. > :54:10.be in field and I think we would look at the figure, we would expect
:54:10. > :54:17.that Sinn Fein will be retaining that seat. Well, it depend if
:54:17. > :54:21.others stand and split that vote. You don't think that is an issue.
:54:21. > :54:25.don't think Mike Nesbitt can go into his first election as leader
:54:25. > :54:29.of the Ulster Unionist Party party and not field a candidate. It is
:54:29. > :54:33.clear some people have said other senior members of the MLA team have
:54:33. > :54:38.told me and officers have said they want a Ulster Unionist candidate.
:54:38. > :54:43.How does all of this set the tone for the decade to come? Noel has
:54:43. > :54:45.referred ahead a little bit to what happens in a decade's time as far
:54:45. > :54:51.as unionist commemorations are consense there are lots of others
:54:51. > :54:57.that need to take place between now and then. Have we got off on as
:54:57. > :55:01.good a footing as we might have hoped to? Yesterday was a good day,
:55:01. > :55:08.but the unionist need to learn something from this. They need to
:55:08. > :55:12.work out what they are celebrating. Are they celebrating the success of
:55:12. > :55:15.Northern Ireland as a vibrant, economically strong collectively
:55:15. > :55:20.co-operating society, because if they are not, I this they brings
:55:20. > :55:24.its own problems. Do you think anyone from a non-unionist
:55:24. > :55:32.background will have a greater understanding of what unionism is
:55:32. > :55:36.about, what the marching culture is about? Seeing people in historical
:55:36. > :55:41.garments, carrying paraphernalia, trying to touch the mood of what
:55:41. > :55:46.happened 100 years ago, does that help the explanation? Or will that
:55:46. > :55:54.wash over people? The pageantry was positive and fascinating, in other
:55:54. > :55:58.respects it was open to par di. How far it moves the debate I am not
:55:58. > :56:00.sure how far that will take us, looking at the spirit of the
:56:00. > :56:05.covenant, that is fine, it's a crucial period in history and it
:56:05. > :56:10.need to be explored. People will look at Carson's role and the way
:56:10. > :56:20.he changed his views further down the line. Let us pause and look at
:56:20. > :56:21.
:56:21. > :56:29.the political week in 60 seconds. Transport come naited the week with
:56:29. > :56:32.claim nas the new bus lanes created chaos. This is not thought up
:56:33. > :56:37.overnight. For many people stuck in traffic it seems like that. From
:56:37. > :56:42.the bike to the car, like another Tory the new Secretary of State
:56:42. > :56:46.revealed the day she got her job she cycled out of Downing Street.
:56:46. > :56:53.The sath sad thing is that is the last time I was allowed to ride my
:56:53. > :56:57.bike and I have been stuck in a bullet-proof car since. Special
:56:57. > :57:01.advisers were in Jim McAllister's site. We face up to it or ignore it.
:57:02. > :57:08.From the committee room to the ringside. MLAs came to blow tons
:57:08. > :57:15.politics of boxing. And as he marked the seen renry of the
:57:15. > :57:24.covenant Lord Band dvingsl side told us he is fighting fit. I don't
:57:24. > :57:29.look like a sick man. -- Lord Bannside. Alex and Noel are still
:57:29. > :57:33.with me. Noel, we got our first proper look at the new Secretary of
:57:33. > :57:38.State on Thursday, what did you make of what she had to say? It is
:57:38. > :57:42.early day, we are impressed with her bike riding ability. She got
:57:42. > :57:47.special treatment! And better manners than some others.
:57:47. > :57:55.Fascinating to look at her ancestry with the Earl of Clarendon and
:57:55. > :58:01.others who had a pivotal road in -- role in Irish history. Clear rien
:58:01. > :58:05.on corporation tax, she say she is will fly the flag. I am not sure it
:58:05. > :58:10.was that clear. She said it was the Prime Minister's decision. It will
:58:10. > :58:14.be the decision of the assembly. I think she gave a classic political
:58:14. > :58:18.answer which all side will be happy with. The fact she got to ride her
:58:18. > :58:24.bike out of the main gates of Downing Street, did that produce a
:58:24. > :58:27.wry smile. No, I hate cyclist. If she is here to champion them I
:58:27. > :58:30.won't be happy. Let us reflect Noel, for a moment or two on the debate
:58:31. > :58:36.we had with Steven Agnew about gay marriage, that makes an appearance
:58:36. > :58:40.on the floor of the assembly tomorrow. Helpful, useful or
:58:40. > :58:46.potentially divisive? Hopefully we will have a mature debate and
:58:46. > :58:49.people will have look ed at the contribution of Mary McAleese as
:58:49. > :58:53.being helpful. We could have difficult moments tomorrow. The
:58:54. > :58:58.measure won't go through. If the tone is right, I think that would
:58:58. > :59:02.help. Alex? I don't think it will be a mature debate. The DUP have
:59:02. > :59:06.vetoed it. This is the third week in a row we have had motions
:59:06. > :59:11.brought to the assembly which are divietive, unionist, nationalist
:59:11. > :59:16.debates which won't pass and I think there are more pressing
:59:16. > :59:20.issues they can deal with with. Looking ahead to the week ahead, we
:59:20. > :59:24.have the Labour Conference sh Northern Ireland featuring on the
:59:24. > :59:29.agenda. No, faded into the background. That is not necessarily
:59:29. > :59:34.a bad thing. I think the executive is going through a bad period.
:59:34. > :59:37.There are some areas it is lacking in credibility. With shouldn't be
:59:37. > :59:42.surprised. No, but it is worth remembering there will be a plucky
:59:42. > :59:45.little band from the Northern Ireland Labour Party who have been