:00:37. > :00:40.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.George Osborne called it a "major success".
:00:44. > :00:46.Google say they're paying what's due.
:00:47. > :00:48.But Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell's not impressed -
:00:49. > :00:51.we'll ask him how he'd get big business to pay more tax.
:00:52. > :00:57.David Cameron says he wants an emergency brake on access
:00:58. > :01:01.to welfare benefits for EU migrants to be applied immediately
:01:02. > :01:07.But will that be enough for the PM to clinch a deal and head
:01:08. > :01:14.And coming up here... if we stay in or we get out?
:01:15. > :01:16.As MLAs prepare to vote to make changes
:01:17. > :01:18.at the Assembly, not everyone's happy.
:01:19. > :01:20.We'll hear from the man behind the Opposition Bill,
:01:21. > :01:21.plus the Alliance Party and the SDLP.
:01:22. > :01:35.And taking time out from their protracted negotiations
:01:36. > :01:37.with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over how much tax
:01:38. > :01:42.they should pay on their enormous fees - the best and the brightest
:01:43. > :01:45.political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:46. > :01:50.and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:51. > :01:53.First this morning, George Osborne hailed Google's back tax bill
:01:54. > :01:59.Since then the settlement's been condemned as too lenient by -
:02:00. > :02:02.among others - Boris Johnson, The Sun, Rupert Murdoch
:02:03. > :02:05.and the Labour Party, which has accused the Chancellor
:02:06. > :02:08.of offering the internet giant "mates' rates".
:02:09. > :02:11.In a moment, I'll be talking to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.
:02:12. > :02:14.First here's Google executive, Peter Barron, defending the company
:02:15. > :02:19.on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.
:02:20. > :02:22.What I would say is that in the UK we pay corporation tax at 20%.
:02:23. > :02:27.It's absolutely the same corporation tax rate as everybody else,
:02:28. > :02:34.Yes, but you keep coming back to this point about sales.
:02:35. > :02:37.We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the activities,
:02:38. > :02:39.the economic activities of Google UK.
:02:40. > :02:43.So, we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20%,
:02:44. > :02:49.and, actually, globally, our effective tax rate over the last
:02:50. > :02:53.five years or so is round about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate,
:02:54. > :03:01.And I'm joined now by the Shadow Chancellor,
:03:02. > :03:14.Welcome. What single step would you take to make sure that companies
:03:15. > :03:20.like Google, Apple, Amazon, pay a fair and appropriate level of tax?
:03:21. > :03:23.Openness and transparency. I want the information about how this deal
:03:24. > :03:31.has been arrived at and I want them to publish in the future there tax
:03:32. > :03:35.records. So that we can have openness and transparency, see what
:03:36. > :03:39.is fair. The Chancellor said this was a major success. But we cannot
:03:40. > :03:46.tell because we have not got the information. Would you extend that
:03:47. > :03:50.to British major companies publishing their tax? Six out of ten
:03:51. > :03:56.of the UK's biggest companies are not paying any corporation tax. Yes,
:03:57. > :04:01.I would. The suggestion has been put forward about the FTSE 100. That is
:04:02. > :04:08.a good idea. There would be no commercial disadvantage. Do you
:04:09. > :04:13.think that transparency would be a major step forward? It is one step
:04:14. > :04:17.forward. We want country by country reporting as well. I supported
:04:18. > :04:22.George Osborne on as negotiations in Europe with that. We're not going to
:04:23. > :04:27.get enough. I found quite angry making this morning that we have
:04:28. > :04:30.allegation -- allegations that their Conservatives were voting their MEPs
:04:31. > :04:37.to vote against this. I find that frustrating. I want HMRC to be
:04:38. > :04:42.properly resourced so they can do the job. There are too many job
:04:43. > :04:45.cuts. We have lost too much expertise. There is time now to
:04:46. > :04:54.start thinking about how we review our tax system. The Treasury select
:04:55. > :04:58.committee has undertaken a review. Corporation tax is levied on
:04:59. > :05:01.profits. Even if you got your transparency, you would quickly find
:05:02. > :05:06.that the concept of profits that can be moved around geographically, they
:05:07. > :05:13.can be manipulated depending on costs, would you consider replacing
:05:14. > :05:17.corporation tax with, for example, a tax on corporate sales? Revenues are
:05:18. > :05:20.less malleable than profits. That is one of the issues to be addressed.
:05:21. > :05:28.Nigel Lawson has done an article to that effect. One of the most
:05:29. > :05:31.important things is to secure international agreement. We cannot
:05:32. > :05:35.have the situation where companies are shopping around the world to
:05:36. > :05:39.find the lowest tax regime and inventing company structures to
:05:40. > :05:43.enable that to happen. But if you had a tax on the revenues, it would
:05:44. > :05:49.not happen what they moved around. Revenues are revenues. You would
:05:50. > :05:54.levy a tax on the revenues in the UK. That is why it is worth looking
:05:55. > :06:00.at. It might be a combination of that and economic activity as well.
:06:01. > :06:03.One professor said if you raise corporate taxes too high, companies
:06:04. > :06:09.may move to island macro or elsewhere. Do you accept there has
:06:10. > :06:13.to be a limit? There has to be a limit, there has to be some
:06:14. > :06:16.reasonableness. If we can get international cooperation, you can
:06:17. > :06:22.avoid this development of virtual tax havens taking place. Would you
:06:23. > :06:28.want a common rate of corporation tax? Not necessarily. You would like
:06:29. > :06:31.to make sure that what you charge is reasonable and fair and you would
:06:32. > :06:37.expect those companies to abide by that. I listened to the Google
:06:38. > :06:41.representative this morning. The reputational damage to Google is
:06:42. > :06:46.immense. The savings they have made in taxes not worth the reputational
:06:47. > :06:56.damage. Let's move on to the other big issue, Europe. And membership.
:06:57. > :07:05.How did you vote in the 1975 referendum? Against. In the 1983
:07:06. > :07:07.Labour manifesto it claimed that a commitment to radical socialist
:07:08. > :07:13.policies was incompatible with membership of the European Union. It
:07:14. > :07:19.proposed withdrawal. Did you agree with that at the time? I did at the
:07:20. > :07:29.time. That is long gone. We're within Europe. We are working within
:07:30. > :07:29.Europe with other parties to see how we can make Europe fair,
:07:30. > :07:34.particularly with regard to the rights of workers. Take this tax
:07:35. > :07:46.issue. We need to be in Europe to ensure we can secure fair agreement
:07:47. > :07:50.on tax. That is why, by remaining within, we have got to remain within
:07:51. > :07:54.with their own reform agenda, that is one of the issues we need to
:07:55. > :07:58.reform. To take that phrase radical socialist policies, you are
:07:59. > :08:07.committed to radical socialist policies. How is that now compatible
:08:08. > :08:11.with remaining in the EU when it was not in 1983? Because we have
:08:12. > :08:15.demonstrated with the work we have undertaken within the EU that we
:08:16. > :08:19.have secured some benefits. Employment rights. In addition,
:08:20. > :08:22.there are real opportunities now where we can work with others to
:08:23. > :08:26.secure that radical change. Withdrawal from Europe at the moment
:08:27. > :08:30.would not be beneficial. It would lose jobs. It would undermine the
:08:31. > :08:34.benefits we have gained in terms of employment. That is why we want to
:08:35. > :08:39.work to reform it. The issue that I have got with the Prime Minister, we
:08:40. > :08:45.will see what he comes back with... On the social Europe issue, you want
:08:46. > :08:49.a more social Europe. In France you have got a socialist government that
:08:50. > :08:55.has moved to the right. In Germany, a centre-right government. Other
:08:56. > :08:59.countries have either the hard right in power or the hard right at the
:09:00. > :09:04.top of the polls. Where is your social Europe in that? That is why
:09:05. > :09:12.we will work with socialist and social Democrats. I think you will
:09:13. > :09:15.see in the coming years that a wider debate is taking place. In some way
:09:16. > :09:21.the referendum debate will enable us to then look at those ideas.
:09:22. > :09:27.Wouldn't it be fair to say that like Jeremy Corbyn, you are pretty
:09:28. > :09:33.lukewarm about our membership of the European Union? I signed up to
:09:34. > :09:39.remain within the EU. That does not mean to say that we accepted as a
:09:40. > :09:44.perfect institution. We want to see reform. I come back to the tax
:09:45. > :09:48.issue. Unless we get international cooperation, particularly across
:09:49. > :09:55.Europe, we will not solve this problem. You have got a Eurosceptic
:09:56. > :09:59.track record. Kate Hoey, a leader -- leading Labour Eurosceptic, she said
:10:00. > :10:05.that you and Jeremy Corbyn consistently voted with Eurosceptic
:10:06. > :10:09.MPs on the EU. That is true, isn't it? On a number of issues, because
:10:10. > :10:13.we were frustrated with the slow pace of reform. That does not mean
:10:14. > :10:19.we are in favour of coming out. It is better to argue from within to
:10:20. > :10:22.secure a commonality of agreement. Do you broadly support the changes
:10:23. > :10:28.that David Cameron is trying to renegotiate? I don't know what they
:10:29. > :10:33.are yet. Let's see what he comes back with. My fear is if he does not
:10:34. > :10:37.treat this issue seriously and it is just about party management, he
:10:38. > :10:42.could blow it. We could be outside of Europe and have the economic
:10:43. > :10:47.penalties as a result. Even if he comes back with something you do not
:10:48. > :10:53.regard as satisfactory, you will campaign to stay in? We will
:10:54. > :10:57.campaign for our own agenda. The government wants to get this done by
:10:58. > :11:03.the end of June. Will you cooperate with that timetable? We will see
:11:04. > :11:08.what he comes back with. Let's have it as soon as possible. We want the
:11:09. > :11:11.debate to take place. Delaying it would not help. We want the debate
:11:12. > :11:18.to start now. It would be better for him to come back fairly soon. Get
:11:19. > :11:22.the debate going. Even if the campaign overlaps with important
:11:23. > :11:26.elections in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, Wales? That is the
:11:27. > :11:31.problem but it will overlap with something. Immigration is good to be
:11:32. > :11:35.a huge issue. The IMF says that almost 4 million immigrants will
:11:36. > :11:42.arrive in the EU between 2015 and 2017. Almost 4 million. Should
:11:43. > :11:47.Britain take a fair share of that? I think is important we cooperate with
:11:48. > :11:51.our European partners to make that we can accommodate those that need
:11:52. > :11:55.to come to this country. In addition, that we have systems in
:11:56. > :12:00.place that protect wages, so that immigration is not used to undermine
:12:01. > :12:03.wages. But should we take a fair share of the 4 million? I think we
:12:04. > :12:10.should. We should cooperate with others and carry the burden. The
:12:11. > :12:14.majority of Britons want us to rise to it and ensure we assist others
:12:15. > :12:18.and that others are not suffering, and that we do not stand on one side
:12:19. > :12:26.when people suffer. Could you give an indication of how many? Young not
:12:27. > :12:30.at this stage. That would be a matter to negotiate with our
:12:31. > :12:37.European partners. Should we volunteered to be part of the EU
:12:38. > :12:40.quotas system? Mrs Merkel and others want 160,000 to be relocated through
:12:41. > :12:47.Schengen. Should we be part of Schengen? Should we be part of the
:12:48. > :12:52.160,000? We should be doing more in terms of assisting refugees coming
:12:53. > :12:56.from Syria. We should be doing more to help those in desperate need.
:12:57. > :13:02.People are drowning in the Mediterranean. We cannot stand
:13:03. > :13:06.aside. This country has a history of receiving refugees. People watching
:13:07. > :13:11.this would want some sort of idea of numbers because numbers are
:13:12. > :13:15.important. It is important. That is why we need to get into these
:13:16. > :13:20.negotiations quickly and come back with practical proposals. In 2013
:13:21. > :13:27.you told a gathering of the people's assembly at a rally on immigration
:13:28. > :13:32.that they should be open borders? I was arguing then... There was
:13:33. > :13:35.re-search looking at the long-term structure of the globe. Inevitably
:13:36. > :13:40.in this century we will have open borders. The movement of peoples
:13:41. > :13:43.across the globe will mean that borders will almost become
:13:44. > :13:49.irrelevant by the end of the century. We should be preparing for
:13:50. > :13:54.that and explaining why people move. Conflicts, poverty and destitution,
:13:55. > :13:57.and also climate change. In our policy-making we should be working
:13:58. > :14:01.now to see how we address that. It will mean that we need to look at
:14:02. > :14:06.how we resolve conflicts, how we make the world more equal and also
:14:07. > :14:11.how we tackle climate change. In that way we can deal with the
:14:12. > :14:15.reality of the world, which means that people are not forced to move
:14:16. > :14:20.but there will be movement. Total open borders? At the end of this
:14:21. > :14:24.century that is what will occur. People are ignoring borders already
:14:25. > :14:27.as they fly from Syria. We should be making sure that if there is no
:14:28. > :14:34.forced movement, we look at the push and pull factors. Conflict
:14:35. > :14:38.prevention, the tackling of inequality and policies that tackle
:14:39. > :14:44.climate change. In that way we can cope with the global pressures with
:14:45. > :14:49.regard to population movement. To do that, for a Labour government to
:14:50. > :14:54.prepare for that, would be loosening controls as you move towards that?
:14:55. > :14:59.No. What I am saying is if you look at the analysis of what is happening
:15:00. > :15:03.over the next 75 years, the movement of people is such that borders are
:15:04. > :15:07.very difficult to maintain. That will happen by the end of the
:15:08. > :15:11.century. We should be opening up the debate of how we handle that. One of
:15:12. > :15:16.the issues we have to tackle is why people are moving. It is about
:15:17. > :15:20.conflict and climate change. It is about poverty as well. That means
:15:21. > :15:25.greater equality not just in our country but across the globe. I
:15:26. > :15:29.wanted to talk to you about Google and the EU. I hope you will come
:15:30. > :15:37.back and give me an interview on economic policy. Let me finish with
:15:38. > :15:42.a taster? Back to Professor Blanchflower, he said about you and
:15:43. > :15:47.Mr Corbyn that you have to accept the realities of capitalism and
:15:48. > :15:52.modern markets, like it or not. No more silly stuff about companies not
:15:53. > :15:58.being able to pay dividends if they do not do X or Y. Do you accept
:15:59. > :16:04.that? That is why I appointed him as an advisor. I wanted objective
:16:05. > :16:04.advice. I have established the architecture for the future
:16:05. > :16:16.development of economic policy. Are you going to accept his advice
:16:17. > :16:20.on that? We will listen to his advice and take it on board. But we
:16:21. > :16:27.will also listen to other advisers. But those advisers, what's the point
:16:28. > :16:31.of them if you will not listen? We will test every policy we put
:16:32. > :16:34.forward. On that one, we are hoping that we would avoid any need for
:16:35. > :16:39.that by introducing as we come into covenant a real living wage. In the
:16:40. > :16:43.meantime, we want to campaign with shareholders so they pressurise
:16:44. > :16:47.their companies to abide by a real living wage. I think there is an
:16:48. > :16:51.alliance to be built there. Is it party policy that if companies don't
:16:52. > :16:54.pay what you regard as a living wage, until it's made mandatory,
:16:55. > :17:00.that they shouldn't be allowed to pay dividends? it's one of ideas we
:17:01. > :17:05.have floated for discussion. We have put it to the economic advisers to
:17:06. > :17:09.get their view. Angela Eagle said it's unworkable. That's why it's
:17:10. > :17:13.open for discussion. It's a really good campaigning tool for us to work
:17:14. > :17:17.with shareholders to make sure they exert their influence to ensure
:17:18. > :17:21.their companies, on things like the living wage and paying their taxes
:17:22. > :17:24.as well, to make sure their companies are acting appropriately.
:17:25. > :17:26.John McDonnell, I hope you come back to continue the debate with us. I
:17:27. > :17:29.certainly well. So, David Cameron once dismissed
:17:30. > :17:31.the idea of an emergency This morning, Downing Street
:17:32. > :17:35.is indicating that a brake on welfare benefits for EU
:17:36. > :17:37.migrants might be acceptable if it was applied immediately,
:17:38. > :17:40.but only as a stop-gap measure. This evening, the Prime Minister
:17:41. > :17:43.meets EU Council President Donald Tusk as he tries to broker a deal
:17:44. > :17:49.ahead of a crunch summit of European leaders next month -
:17:50. > :17:54.but will the fractious leave campaigns be in any position to take
:17:55. > :17:56.advantage if he's seen to fail? Right now the future of Britain
:17:57. > :18:03.inside or outside the European Union You might think it started here
:18:04. > :18:12.in Brussels, or that the media's massed ranks are awaiting
:18:13. > :18:17.the outcome in the European Parliament in Strasbourg,
:18:18. > :18:19.or that we are hovering with baited breath for a decision
:18:20. > :18:22.in our own Parliament, but no. This week the decision was made
:18:23. > :18:28.in Havering, in Essex. In this chamber right now,
:18:29. > :18:31.Havering councillors are debating If they do, of course nothing
:18:32. > :18:37.will change, because the smart among you know, no council,
:18:38. > :18:40.not even the British Parliament, Nevertheless Havering Council
:18:41. > :18:48.deliberately didn't deliberate on the leisure centre
:18:49. > :18:53.or meals on wheels. However the Prime Minister meanwhile
:18:54. > :18:56.was hurrying for a deal on wheels - not with councillors,
:18:57. > :19:05.but with 27 EU member states. It's his plan to block in-work
:19:06. > :19:08.benefits for EU migrants for four years that's getting
:19:09. > :19:10.the bumpiest ride. The EU counter proposal
:19:11. > :19:12.of an an "emergency brake" on access to benefits - if a country can prove
:19:13. > :19:16.it's welfare system's under strain - has not gone down well
:19:17. > :19:18.with Eurosceptics back home. They are saying we are
:19:19. > :19:25.allowed to go to Brussels, and ask their permission
:19:26. > :19:28.to change the benefit rules, David Cameron still wants that
:19:29. > :19:34.benefit ban, and knows accepting the emergency brake as is would only
:19:35. > :19:38.accelerate any campaign to leave. We want to end the idea
:19:39. > :19:41.of something for nothing. It's not good enough,
:19:42. > :19:47.it needs more work, I believe we've got to put
:19:48. > :19:54.country before party, country before personality, vote
:19:55. > :19:56.for freedom, and vote for leave. In Havering they aren't waiting
:19:57. > :20:02.for a date or a settlement. The Prime Minster knows Brexit
:20:03. > :20:05.supporters are eyeing his own Cabinet to see who might be tempted
:20:06. > :20:08.do the same. Michael Gove might come
:20:09. > :20:12.out for leave. Boris Johnson, though
:20:13. > :20:18.it's rather doubtful, might just possibly come out
:20:19. > :20:20.for leave, to vote for leave. Theresa May, who almost
:20:21. > :20:22.certainly is preoccupied And finally, Sajid Javid,
:20:23. > :20:27.the Business Secretary, who has the most
:20:28. > :20:31.Eurosceptic record of all. But it's very difficult,
:20:32. > :20:33.when you are a government minister, and you've got real feelings
:20:34. > :20:35.of loyalty to your party and your Prime Minister,
:20:36. > :20:39.to depart from the line. And a lot of pressure,
:20:40. > :20:43.moral pressure, if you like, A Havering Borough MP thinks that
:20:44. > :20:53.kind of pressure is wrong. I think that this is a decision
:20:54. > :20:56.that we all have to make And it shouldn't impede
:20:57. > :21:00.on people's political careers. People should be able
:21:01. > :21:03.to make up their own minds, and not worry about whether they are
:21:04. > :21:06.going to be sidelined or punished Those who do out themselves for out,
:21:07. > :21:12.will need campaign wizards who can Which, of two battling groups,
:21:13. > :21:18.that is yet undecided, but so far both have seen a bad
:21:19. > :21:23.spell of personality clashes and darkening moods way over
:21:24. > :21:26.the heads of most grassroots The chance of winning over
:21:27. > :21:30.undeclared MPs is the magic What we did discover,
:21:31. > :21:40.it's like the dementors slowly sucking the people up out
:21:41. > :21:44.of the air, body I do think that there will be
:21:45. > :21:47.a coming together now, probably for very good reasons,
:21:48. > :21:50.there have been divisions But I think this campaign will not
:21:51. > :21:53.be just politicians. It's about the people
:21:54. > :21:55.versus the elite in many ways. In fact, you have a referendum
:21:56. > :21:58.really in many ways when politicians Meanwhile back in Havering...
:21:59. > :22:01.is they want to do. party motion is therefore
:22:02. > :22:07.carried by 30 votes to 15. So, councillors in Havering have
:22:08. > :22:11.voted for a motion that says Now, there are plenty of councillors
:22:12. > :22:19.who said they don't have any business debating this,
:22:20. > :22:22.they have far more important things But what it might show
:22:23. > :22:26.is that for some people - and in this case,
:22:27. > :22:29.an official elected body - never mind what the date is,
:22:30. > :22:33.and never mind the renegotiation, they would like to make
:22:34. > :22:40.clear their views right now. I'm joined now by the Conservative
:22:41. > :22:43.MP, Steve Baker, co-chairman of Conservatives for Britain
:22:44. > :22:53.and a director of the Vote Leave If the Prime Minister can get an
:22:54. > :22:57.agreement that there will be a break in welfare payments for migrants the
:22:58. > :23:02.day after the referendum, isn't that a powerful thing to take to the
:23:03. > :23:06.country? It's not powerful at all. Bernard Jenkin is the Conservative
:23:07. > :23:09.director of Vote Leave, but we have been told by the OBR that it
:23:10. > :23:13.wouldn't make much difference even if the Prime Minister got this
:23:14. > :23:17.break. They would only take one case brought forward by activist lawyers,
:23:18. > :23:22.and we would expect the European Court of Justice to strike down such
:23:23. > :23:26.a measure. We think it's a red herring, and as John Redwood said, a
:23:27. > :23:30.bad joke. They have ended up trying to manufacture the appearance of
:23:31. > :23:33.success out of very little. As things stand at the moment, there's
:23:34. > :23:37.nothing the Prime Minister would bring back that would make you want
:23:38. > :23:41.to stay in? I've been clear through the whole period that most of us
:23:42. > :23:45.want to end the supremacy of the EU in the UK. Make our own laws in
:23:46. > :23:51.Parliament. The prime ministers had something similar about the European
:23:52. > :23:54.Court of Human Rights. Demanding an opt out from the charter is subbing
:23:55. > :24:00.the Prime Minister has had to give up. So money inconsistencies. The
:24:01. > :24:04.answer is no. I expect a good number of colleagues to join me and
:24:05. > :24:11.campaign to leave at this stage. How many Tory MPs will campaign for out?
:24:12. > :24:15.Of the 150 on the list who have expressed interest, and about a
:24:16. > :24:24.fifth have made up their minds, I think about 50-70. No more than 50
:24:25. > :24:28.or 70 Tory MPs campaigning on your side of the referendum to leave?
:24:29. > :24:32.That would be my expectation at this stage. John McDonnell said he wanted
:24:33. > :24:37.to get this out of the wear it, the referendum. Didn't sound to me like
:24:38. > :24:41.Labour would join with the SNP on delaying tactics for the referendum.
:24:42. > :24:46.Would you like the referendum to be later? Realistically we are
:24:47. > :24:49.campaigning out to leave the EU and we have secured our objectives for
:24:50. > :24:55.the campaign. But there is a good case to be made that a June date
:24:56. > :25:04.would trust us. There are elections in neigh, and I think there's a good
:25:05. > :25:07.case for a delay until September. I would prefer the government brought
:25:08. > :25:11.forward a measure that went through the Commons without a row, but if
:25:12. > :25:15.Labour and the SNP and conservative colleagues wish to put something
:25:16. > :25:22.through, then we will be able to what's the biggest beach from the --
:25:23. > :25:28.beast on the cabinet you would like to get? I haven't ruled anybody out.
:25:29. > :25:31.But I'm happy to go into the campaign without any Cabinet big
:25:32. > :25:38.beasts. It would be surprised this point if Chris Grayling didn't join
:25:39. > :25:45.us. He would count as a big beast, leader of the house. People know
:25:46. > :25:55.which Cabinet members are discussed. Theresa May? She made a speech on
:25:56. > :26:01.immigration which would be difficult to recalibrate with the EU. It's a
:26:02. > :26:03.matter for her. You've given up on Bryce Johnson? He occasionally
:26:04. > :26:10.flirts with it in the press. But he's a typical conservative, he
:26:11. > :26:15.loves Europe, he would like Europe to be different, but we'll see what
:26:16. > :26:23.he does when the comes. The different leave campaigns, it's
:26:24. > :26:27.flawed with blood, when will you stop knocking lumps out of each
:26:28. > :26:31.other? I'm not knocking lumps out of anybody and I regret this week that
:26:32. > :26:35.we've had distractions from the core aim of leaving the EU and I regret
:26:36. > :26:39.they have got their way to the press. Everybody involved needs to
:26:40. > :26:43.reach a resolution, everybody involved wants to move on and I hope
:26:44. > :26:48.we do so quickly, let's fight a winning campaign. You are not the
:26:49. > :26:51.director of Vote Leave but you are on the Parliamentary planning
:26:52. > :26:55.committee for Vote Leave, so you are associated. Did you agree with the
:26:56. > :26:58.attempts to get rid of the two full-time people running it, Dominic
:26:59. > :27:03.Cummings and Matthew Elliott? This is a matter for the board. Do you
:27:04. > :27:07.agree with whether they should have gone? At this stage it's very late
:27:08. > :27:19.in the day to make such a profound change. But given the severe
:27:20. > :27:21.concerns of my colleagues, it is clear there will have to be material
:27:22. > :27:23.changes in Vote Leave in order to carry parliamentarians with the
:27:24. > :27:26.campaign. What this material change mean? There has to be a greater
:27:27. > :27:29.degree of involvement with planetary and so they think they are shaping
:27:30. > :27:34.the campaign to win over those voters we need. Will there be a
:27:35. > :27:39.merger in the end? Surely that's what all of you need, you are up
:27:40. > :27:43.against the government, is huge machine, don't you need to be
:27:44. > :27:49.united? It's a David and Goliath battle and we need to be united. The
:27:50. > :27:52.process of unity will come through designation. Realistically, leave.
:27:53. > :28:00.EU is looking at the Courville, where as Vote Leave knows we need
:28:01. > :28:04.the swing vote. -- looking at the core vote. I'm confident that Vote
:28:05. > :28:10.Leave can and will win the referendum. I wouldn't give away the
:28:11. > :28:13.mop in case there is more blood to wipe up.
:28:14. > :28:15.One of David Cameron's four key demands in his EU
:28:16. > :28:18.renegotiation concerns competitiveness.
:28:19. > :28:21.The Prime Minister says the burden of regulation on businesses is too
:28:22. > :28:24.high, and that the EU needs to strengthen the single market
:28:25. > :28:26.and accelerate trade agreements with America and China.
:28:27. > :28:29.Arguments about the economic costs or benefits of membership will form
:28:30. > :28:32.a large part of the referendum campaign, with both sides keen
:28:33. > :28:38.Those campaigning to remain within the EU say our membership
:28:39. > :28:41.is worth ?3000 to every household in Britain.
:28:42. > :28:48.It's based on a CBI claim that the UK's economy is 5% bigger
:28:49. > :28:55.They also claim that 3 million jobs are linked
:28:56. > :28:58.to trade within the EU, that 45% of UK exports of goods
:28:59. > :29:03.and services go to the EU, and that the value of
:29:04. > :29:08.trade with the EU is ?133 billion higher than it would be if we left.
:29:09. > :29:17.Those who argue we would be better off if we left claim that
:29:18. > :29:19.regulations imposed on business by the EU cost over
:29:20. > :29:24.They say the 3 million figure on jobs is
:29:25. > :29:27.dependent on trade with the EU, not membership.
:29:28. > :29:30.They argue that the trade would continue if we voted to leave,
:29:31. > :29:32.because we currently import more than we export from the EU.
:29:33. > :29:36.So its members would want free trade to remain.
:29:37. > :29:39.They further point out that the importance of UK trade
:29:40. > :29:46.They cite ONS figures showing that the proportion
:29:47. > :29:49.of UK exports heading for the EU fell from 54.8% in 1999
:29:50. > :29:59.But an analysis by the House of Commons Library in 2013
:30:00. > :30:02.of numerous studies into the economic
:30:03. > :30:05.impact of EU membership found no consensus either way,
:30:06. > :30:13.So, which side will manage to convince voters?
:30:14. > :30:15.I'm joined now by the former trade minister Digby Jones
:30:16. > :30:18.and Richard Reed, who founded Innocent Smoothies,
:30:19. > :30:20.who is campaigning for Britain to stay in the EU.
:30:21. > :30:32.Welcome. Digby Jones, the EU accounts for 45% of our exports. Why
:30:33. > :30:38.would you risk any of that? That will not change. Because in the
:30:39. > :30:44.morning after any referendum result, Germany, it is pivotal on Germany,
:30:45. > :30:48.would immediately want some form of tariff free arrangement with
:30:49. > :30:55.Britain. They make a million cars they sell in Britain a year. 75 to
:30:56. > :31:01.80% of all the trains in this country are built in Dusseldorf. We
:31:02. > :31:07.do not know for sure? No. Germany does it and the others follow. There
:31:08. > :31:14.are many arguments to stay in. But the one thing we should kill now is
:31:15. > :31:19.that not one job in Britain is at risk because of EU membership. Not
:31:20. > :31:24.one. There would be a free-trade agreement because we are so
:31:25. > :31:28.important to Europe. And by the way that does not mean there are not
:31:29. > :31:32.other reasons why not -- why we might not want to be in or out. I
:31:33. > :31:38.get so frustrated when people talk about jobs at risk. It is rubbish.
:31:39. > :31:43.That is very easy thing to call total nonsense. It is clear that if
:31:44. > :31:48.your biggest market is suddenly interfered with, that it will not
:31:49. > :31:50.somehow affect trade, does not make sense. You know more than most
:31:51. > :31:56.people that businesses need certainty. What we have right now is
:31:57. > :32:00.unfettered access to the largest market in the world. The fact that
:32:01. > :32:04.we want to start playing around with this and that is good for business,
:32:05. > :32:09.it does not make sense. I do not see the added value in belonging to a
:32:10. > :32:23.club that fetters small businesses in this country every day.
:32:24. > :32:32.I am a small business. I have done it for years. This is a colossal
:32:33. > :32:38.opportunity. If you are an entrepreneur in the UK. You're
:32:39. > :32:42.making it sound like it makes it more difficult. It makes it much
:32:43. > :32:48.easier because it is one set of regulations and 500 million
:32:49. > :32:55.consumers. If you have a shop, would you want 60 million people walk by
:32:56. > :32:59.our 500 million people walk by? You can achieve that through a
:33:00. > :33:01.free-trade agreement. You get the sales prevention team in Brussels
:33:02. > :33:10.marching valiantly towards 1970, trying to save this is how you will
:33:11. > :33:15.lead your small business in Hartlepool. But we all know that
:33:16. > :33:20.Sutherland Europe, compliance is a voluntary event. We all know that
:33:21. > :33:25.the French do not obey these rules. Then we and northern Europe, we are
:33:26. > :33:30.by no means the best, we obey this stuff. And a small business who
:33:31. > :33:39.doesn't have lobbyists in Brussels, and you know this... I know this.
:33:40. > :33:43.Britain loves a bit of regulation. You are absolutely right. If we come
:33:44. > :33:47.out and you say we will still trade, we will still have to comply with
:33:48. > :33:51.the regulation. That is the condition of free trade. We will not
:33:52. > :33:56.avoid regulation. The regulation is there whether we are in or out. If
:33:57. > :34:01.we are in, we get to influence the regulation. We get to have the voice
:34:02. > :34:10.heard. You tell that to the money men in the City who have seen
:34:11. > :34:14.legislation come down from Brussels. You see what happens when we're not
:34:15. > :34:20.there when the big decisions are made. You think we have no
:34:21. > :34:23.influence? We're one of the three big forces in Europe. We are one of
:34:24. > :34:30.the three biggest economies in Europe. Digby Jones, I want to ask
:34:31. > :34:35.you this. You assume we will still have unfettered access to the single
:34:36. > :34:37.market. But it has been pointed out by Richard Reid that that means we
:34:38. > :34:40.would have to meet by Richard Reid that that means we
:34:41. > :34:44.would have to meet the conditions of getting into the single market.
:34:45. > :34:48.Could there be other costs? Free movement of people may be a cost.
:34:49. > :34:54.That is a price Switzerland and Norway pay. Let's Explorer that. I'm
:34:55. > :34:58.concerned this referendum is going to become a referendum purely on a
:34:59. > :35:03.migration on the street, when we ought to be discussing how can
:35:04. > :35:08.European Union reform and improve the life of an unemployed
:35:09. > :35:12.25-year-old in Madrid and a single mother in Athens? How can the power
:35:13. > :35:17.of Britain, economic and otherwise, how can it be seen as a driver to
:35:18. > :35:22.get the standard of living up? If you base your economy on exporting
:35:23. > :35:27.our lives and importing BMWs, you will go bust. They are asking Europe
:35:28. > :35:31.to subsidise the growth of our lives, in the hope that for some
:35:32. > :35:34.reason on skilled people in Europe will do this. You are going to get
:35:35. > :35:40.on skilled people in Europe coming to rich countries instead of
:35:41. > :35:44.actually getting skilled people in Europe being marketable in northern
:35:45. > :35:52.Europe. You can only pull that off with reform. We should not be
:35:53. > :35:55.campaigning to stop these people coming. We should be campaigning to
:35:56. > :36:00.get the skills base of Europe up so they get wealthy, but more
:36:01. > :36:05.importantly, they are more marketable in our market. The
:36:06. > :36:08.British government has enough trouble getting the skills base
:36:09. > :36:13.right in Britain without trying to get it right in southern Europe.
:36:14. > :36:19.Richard Reid, you say that we are in the club that we can influence the
:36:20. > :36:24.rules. Let me put the question. The British have been on the wrong end
:36:25. > :36:28.of EU majorities on these rules more than any other country that is a
:36:29. > :36:35.member of the EU. We really get away on these things. You are joking. We
:36:36. > :36:42.have got the best possible setup. We are part of the EU. We said no to
:36:43. > :36:51.the euro, no to Schengen, no to force migratory bird it is. Why so
:36:52. > :36:57.many majority votes? This is a macro decision. Once in a generation. We
:36:58. > :37:01.have got to get it right. The big picture is it is a colossal
:37:02. > :37:07.opportunity and we have got the best version of the deal. When you and I
:37:08. > :37:11.were arguing cases about whether we should join the euro years ago, I
:37:12. > :37:16.can remember sitting in television studios and being told the world was
:37:17. > :37:21.going to end and we were going to go to Armageddon and back if we did not
:37:22. > :37:29.join the euro. We made the right decision about the euro. This
:37:30. > :37:31.interview has come to an end. I thank you both.
:37:32. > :37:33.It's just gone 11:35 - you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:34. > :37:36.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:37. > :37:47.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be hearing from our political panel.
:37:48. > :37:50.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:37:51. > :37:53.It's all change on the hill as MLAs vote to cut their numbers,
:37:54. > :37:57.reform their departments and perhaps establish an official opposition.
:37:58. > :38:00.So, will it create a new super-efficient Stormont?
:38:01. > :38:03.Or will we scarcely notice the difference?
:38:04. > :38:06.We'll hear from the independent MLA who's behind the push for change
:38:07. > :38:11.Plus - there's still no official date for polling day,
:38:12. > :38:13.but election fever is catching in the Republic.
:38:14. > :38:28.All things are on the top. I think people are a little bit more
:38:29. > :38:30.positive about everything. And with their thoughts on that
:38:31. > :38:33.and more, my guests of the day are Felicity Huston and Chris
:38:34. > :38:38.Donnelly. Not fit for purpose
:38:39. > :38:42.and in urgent need of reform - just some of the criticisms that
:38:43. > :38:44.politicians themselves have directed MLAs have been busying themselves
:38:45. > :38:52.with a number of bills which will reduce the number
:38:53. > :38:53.of Assembly members, merge Executive departments
:38:54. > :38:57.and establish a formal opposition. So, will it be enough to improve
:38:58. > :39:01.Stormont's image and create With me are the Independent Unionist
:39:02. > :39:05.MLA John McCallister and councillors Nichola Mallon from the SDLP
:39:06. > :39:17.and Nuala McAllister Welcome to the programme. John
:39:18. > :39:21.McCallister. Private members bill has its consideration stage on
:39:22. > :39:24.Tuesday, do you think it will ultimately steal the established of
:39:25. > :39:30.an effective opposition at Stormont Guzman I certainly hope so. I think
:39:31. > :39:35.that broader package you mentioned at the start of the programme of
:39:36. > :39:42.changing the departments, ultimately the reduction of MLAs to 2021 and
:39:43. > :39:46.the opposition bill. All that is about how would you start to create
:39:47. > :39:50.this idea of a collective government with an agreed programme for
:39:51. > :39:54.government, moving in one direction and held to account by a robust
:39:55. > :39:59.opposition that ultimately gives voters a choice and the ability of
:40:00. > :40:03.toys and change for a future elections. There are a lot of
:40:04. > :40:07.amendments from other parties. Sinn Fein is opposing every cause of the
:40:08. > :40:14.deal Lyman stage. Sinn Fein ride back from November told me they were
:40:15. > :40:20.likely to oppose every clause on the grounds that they had agreed fresh
:40:21. > :40:24.start and they were certainly pushing Bible had in England's first
:40:25. > :40:34.start that had improved the provision for opposition from -- it
:40:35. > :40:39.is there and it is being debated. All of the parties and I say this
:40:40. > :40:45.including Sinn Fein, they have engaged with me on the bill, it has
:40:46. > :40:51.been very useful. Michael Allen. Sinn Fein is opposed, will be SDLP
:40:52. > :40:55.-- Michael Allen. The SDLP has worked quite closely. John has to be
:40:56. > :41:03.commended for bringing this bill forward. If you look at the glaring
:41:04. > :41:07.weakness in the system, there is a lack of openness and transparency
:41:08. > :41:13.with the budget process in particular. The bill with the
:41:14. > :41:19.amendments make good inroads into trying to address that. You're not
:41:20. > :41:25.happy with the notion of it petition of concern, what changes do you
:41:26. > :41:28.think needed? We think it is worth quite considerably from what it was
:41:29. > :41:33.intended to be. We have tabled an amendment. If someone has a petition
:41:34. > :41:42.of concern and will be scrutinised to see weather it has adverse impact
:41:43. > :41:45.on human rights and equality. So, you think it has been abused but you
:41:46. > :41:48.don't want to get rid of it altogether? Know because
:41:49. > :41:54.unfortunately we believe we won't be in a place where there won't be a
:41:55. > :41:58.misuse of power, or domination of sectarianism so unfortunately we
:41:59. > :42:01.have two retained the safeguards for minority rights and we believe we
:42:02. > :42:08.are doing is the right way and the right and effectively. As far as
:42:09. > :42:11.opposition is concerned, your current party before he was bodied
:42:12. > :42:16.said there was no place called opposition but he made a speech yet
:42:17. > :42:20.last week in which he seemed to suggest opposition would be a good
:42:21. > :42:24.idea, does that mean the SDLP is moving in that direction? I think he
:42:25. > :42:29.was clear that after this they should be an official opposition but
:42:30. > :42:38.we are fighting this election to be in government. With caster, what is
:42:39. > :42:42.your position on this? We have been quite constructive, working along
:42:43. > :42:51.side him and we will be supporting him. On the hell out of the bill
:42:52. > :42:55.is... By party would have major concerns about the petition of
:42:56. > :42:58.concern. I would not like to see that mechanism being used to
:42:59. > :43:02.actually slapped down the bill. It would be a great embarrassment to
:43:03. > :43:05.the party who do use it and I hope the petition of concern is not used
:43:06. > :43:08.because something that creates more accountability and scrutiny is a
:43:09. > :43:14.good thing for the public. And is it a possibility that the Alliance
:43:15. > :43:17.Party could opt if the bid is successful to take an opposition
:43:18. > :43:22.stance in the next mandate rather than seek to be in the Executive
:43:23. > :43:26.they currently are? No party fight an election to go into opposition.
:43:27. > :43:30.They fight going to government and to govern for the best the people.
:43:31. > :43:34.Whenever that happens after the election then Alliance will say what
:43:35. > :43:38.the position is then. But you do support the notion of an effective
:43:39. > :43:42.opposition even if you might opt for hope that you are not out
:43:43. > :43:46.yourselves? Of course. As I said, something that creates more
:43:47. > :43:49.accountability to hold politicians to account and then making decisions
:43:50. > :43:52.in the Executive is nothing but a good thing. The other piece of
:43:53. > :43:56.legislation that I talked about in the introduction of the reduction of
:43:57. > :44:00.members bill, your party has tabled an amendment wanting the reduction
:44:01. > :44:07.in numbers to come into effect this year 's election, rather than adding
:44:08. > :44:11.21. But there is not any real prospect of that happening, do you
:44:12. > :44:16.accept that? We are in a bizarre situation here. Politicians have
:44:17. > :44:19.agreed to reduce the numbers from six to five per constituency but
:44:20. > :44:24.they have agreed to hold off until 2021 or the next Assembly election.
:44:25. > :44:29.We are pushing three the final stage of the departments but which reduces
:44:30. > :44:34.the number of departments, so Eddie single -- decision that affects the
:44:35. > :44:38.public, they could save ?11 million in five years, 90 new police
:44:39. > :44:41.officers, 90 new nurses, I think the public would like that. We need to
:44:42. > :44:45.make sure that MLAs are held accountable. John McCallister, is
:44:46. > :44:52.that the kind of issue that leaves members of the public watching the
:44:53. > :44:59.comings and goings, that the left hand doesn't know what the right
:45:00. > :45:09.hand is doing. It is an open debate. The agreement in fresh start but
:45:10. > :45:13.like I would have much preferred to see after beating this under the new
:45:14. > :45:18.Assembly mandate, time to work out whether 90 is the right number
:45:19. > :45:21.because changes at Westminster might also affect numbers. And that is not
:45:22. > :45:28.self-interest? Independents like yourself are very often individuals
:45:29. > :45:32.who tend to pick up the sixth seed. If it goes from six seats to five,
:45:33. > :45:39.someone Microsoft could struggle to be returned. Absolutely. It is
:45:40. > :45:43.important to have independent voices. Also we are still grappling
:45:44. > :45:47.ride throughout the committee stage of my bill, it is always debating
:45:48. > :45:52.this idea of how we continue to address the historic problems and
:45:53. > :45:58.once you reduce and change the size of constituencies it can change the
:45:59. > :46:04.make-up of those constituencies or indeed reduce somewhat the spread of
:46:05. > :46:09.candidates across it, for example you might have more constituencies
:46:10. > :46:12.with no nationalist representatives or no unionist representatives and
:46:13. > :46:15.we have to ask ourselves is that a good thing, are we ready for that
:46:16. > :46:24.and that is why I think most of the parties are reluctant to go too
:46:25. > :46:27.fast, too soon on this issue. You are not in, Nichola Allen. Your
:46:28. > :46:36.party touched on this. We agreed reduction in numbers, but marketing
:46:37. > :46:38.departments, we want to set up an official opposition, changing number
:46:39. > :46:41.of constituencies, changing Westminster. I think we need to be
:46:42. > :46:49.cautious. We need change but we don't want to rush it too far to be
:46:50. > :46:56.end up causing damage. You looked as if you were shaking your head, Naula
:46:57. > :47:00.MCallister, do you not agree? The change we are opposing is what
:47:01. > :47:06.affects politicians, it is the change in the numbers. John
:47:07. > :47:12.mentioned the Westminster boundaries might change but... Why get a power
:47:13. > :47:18.and an wide five years to do something. It sells itself interest
:47:19. > :47:21.the parties and I think a lot of people can get on board with that.
:47:22. > :47:26.We're talking about ensuring there is better inclusion because there
:47:27. > :47:30.are members of other parties who have just one MLA and their
:47:31. > :47:34.supporters on this issue because they know we can ensure greater
:47:35. > :47:38.accountability and we can look alongside the departments and we can
:47:39. > :47:42.ensure that we provide better value for money at Stormont. Forgive me
:47:43. > :47:47.for saying, it will work quite well, this tactic, the Alliance on the
:47:48. > :47:51.door so casually. You actually say to people who are potential voters,
:47:52. > :47:55.we think this should change and beginning of your colours to the
:47:56. > :47:59.mast at the zero will not change the order to do so because something
:48:00. > :48:04.shouldn't change you shouldn't do it? Alliance have been calling this
:48:05. > :48:07.for a number of years and just because the bike there are parties
:48:08. > :48:10.that do this all the time and we appeal for people to get on board
:48:11. > :48:13.with us. We're not talking about something that will create a massive
:48:14. > :48:17.change. You can still feel the number of candidates as you wish, in
:48:18. > :48:20.each constituency. That will not stop it but what we're talking about
:48:21. > :48:26.is on election day it will be five, not six. John McCallister, your bill
:48:27. > :48:30.has consideration said on Tuesday. It may go through but do you accept
:48:31. > :48:37.if it goes through it is going to be a hugely changed version of what you
:48:38. > :48:41.initially authored? I would suspect I can't entirely predictable, of the
:48:42. > :48:48.land. When I the bill and worked on the bill, even as you agreed at the
:48:49. > :48:52.time of second stage, a pretty ambitious programme of reform of
:48:53. > :48:55.both the Assembly and official opposition of the way the Executive
:48:56. > :49:01.worked, collective responsibility, all of those things were very
:49:02. > :49:05.ambitious but even I don't get up on -- all of what I would like in the
:49:06. > :49:11.bill to set. It has certainly fired up a conversation with parties,
:49:12. > :49:17.academics and commentators in saying, this is the sort of change
:49:18. > :49:21.we might need over a period of time and I will continue to campaign for
:49:22. > :49:24.the change. Thank you very much. Stay with us.
:49:25. > :49:26.Let's see what my guests of the day make of that.
:49:27. > :49:28.Chris Donnelly and Felicity Huston are with me.
:49:29. > :49:37.Welcome to you both. Chris, Sinn Fein sportsperson said to us this
:49:38. > :49:39.morning the bill, John McCallister's bill is unnecessary because the
:49:40. > :49:45.fresh start agreement has provision for an opposition in line with the
:49:46. > :49:48.Good Friday Agreement, so that is an explanation for why republicans have
:49:49. > :49:54.opposed each and every one of the 24 clauses in the bill. What you think
:49:55. > :49:58.will happen on Tuesday? First of all I think John should be commended for
:49:59. > :50:03.ensuring the issue of constitutional reform is kept through the member 's
:50:04. > :50:07.bill on the agenda. We do know because we have a coalition with the
:50:08. > :50:11.five parties in the Executive which is necessary because of the legacy
:50:12. > :50:17.of the conflict but we know the consequence of that is no unifying
:50:18. > :50:22.discerning agenda through the Executive. That is at a situation
:50:23. > :50:26.where departments run by different parties have own agenda and that
:50:27. > :50:29.leads to protracted deadlock the Executive table which goes on for
:50:30. > :50:33.years over issues on education, health, local government reform. But
:50:34. > :50:36.I think crucially and this is why I think Sinn Fein can be quite relaxed
:50:37. > :50:41.about this, that system benefits since then and the DUP at the Leeds
:50:42. > :50:46.parties within unionism and nationalism and therefore it will
:50:47. > :50:52.have to be driven not by them because it is in their interests to
:50:53. > :50:56.be able to move of the Executive to ensure that like I just wanted to
:50:57. > :51:01.bring felicity in on the overall issue of reform. That is a package
:51:02. > :51:07.of measures. Do they brought the make sense? Broadly, yes. Our
:51:08. > :51:11.current political structure is one of dampest circles of hell for both
:51:12. > :51:19.politicians. You can pinpoint a policy because you're stuck in this
:51:20. > :51:22.horrendous... Anything that breaks add up and starts to turn us into a
:51:23. > :51:26.normal political state, functioning state with opposition policies
:51:27. > :51:29.implemented and people electing politicians on the basis of policy
:51:30. > :51:34.sale breadboard, that has to be welcome and I think we will be
:51:35. > :51:36.delighted. We will talk you later. Thank you.
:51:37. > :51:39.Now, they haven't called it officially yet, but the Irish
:51:40. > :51:41.election will take place in the coming weeks.
:51:42. > :51:43.Will Enda Kenny be returned as Taoiseach?
:51:44. > :51:46.Will there be a shift to Micheal Martin's Fianna Fail?
:51:47. > :51:52.Can the party make the gains that put it into government in the Dail?
:51:53. > :51:55.One area being targeted by Sinn Fein is Donegal where the party
:51:56. > :51:58.currently holds two seats, but hopes to gain a third.
:51:59. > :52:00.Our Political Correspondent Stephen Walker has been to the county
:52:01. > :52:19.Over 200 commenters from Dublin, some regard this as a place apart.
:52:20. > :52:24.... Kilometres. Elections here are also different and even before a
:52:25. > :52:31.vote has been cast, headlines have been created. It's a case of all
:52:32. > :52:38.teams here in Donegal. Once there to constituencies, they have now been
:52:39. > :52:42.merged to create one. Once six TDs were elected, this time it will be
:52:43. > :52:48.five. It fixes election race very tight and the final outcome
:52:49. > :52:53.difficult to predict. -- makes this election race. Sinn Fein have two
:52:54. > :52:56.TDs here at the moment. Patrick McLoughlin and Pearse Doherty. They
:52:57. > :53:01.hope local councillor Gary Doherty can win a third seed. Old management
:53:02. > :53:08.will be key. It is a risky strategy. Very ambitious to take these seats.
:53:09. > :53:15.It is one that me and public have been instigators of because we
:53:16. > :53:18.believe it is important to be in a position to lead the next
:53:19. > :53:23.government. Why do you say it is risky? Because when you stand three
:53:24. > :53:30.candidates and your two hours without, it is the other sitting TDs
:53:31. > :53:33.in jeopardy. Reporter Kieran O'Donnell says Sinn Fein are in a
:53:34. > :53:38.strong position and could take a third seed in Donegal. Anything is
:53:39. > :53:45.possible in the selection. Guaranteed to seats. Whether Gary
:53:46. > :53:51.Gardai makes enough for Patrick to stainless that race remains to be
:53:52. > :53:57.seen. It is unlikely but possible. Fine Gael are running sitting TDs
:53:58. > :54:05.Jeroen Dijsselbloem which you and they have also selected a fresh face
:54:06. > :54:11.with a well-known name. Paddy Harte's father was a Fine Gael TD.
:54:12. > :54:13.He says Donegal needs to be better connected and that includes
:54:14. > :54:20.improving the a five in Northern Ireland. The last major said in that
:54:21. > :54:25.city in the ad has not got a motorway, which is dairy. It is
:54:26. > :54:32.essentially our capital wasn't a border. -- Barry. It is important
:54:33. > :54:45.for the island that it Afive as a connection. The Aberfoyle...
:54:46. > :54:50.Post-election, the Aberfoyle have made it clear who they will go into
:54:51. > :54:54.coalition with. We will not be going into government with Fine Gael. Our
:54:55. > :55:01.objective is to become the largest party and ensure their recovery that
:55:02. > :55:06.Donegal can benefit from. And it brings about a fair approach to
:55:07. > :55:09.governing the country. Voters in Donegal will have a number of
:55:10. > :55:14.independent candidates to choose from. In other constituencies,
:55:15. > :55:19.independents find it hard to get elected because they are up against
:55:20. > :55:24.a party machine. But in Donegal there is an independent tradition.
:55:25. > :55:33.Thomas Pringle became an independent TD in 2011. If he is returned he is
:55:34. > :55:37.prepared to talk to other parties. I would bag all the things that
:55:38. > :55:42.Donegal requires but all things old legacy in a national level. If the
:55:43. > :55:48.party of Fine Gael or attempt to do business on with me then I would
:55:49. > :55:53.talk to them but I support anyone would not be guaranteed. So far
:55:54. > :55:59.there are three other independent candidates in this race. There is a
:56:00. > :56:05.Green Party candidate. It means Donegal voters have plenty of
:56:06. > :56:11.choice. It's a mass of elections. I think the left will do well this
:56:12. > :56:19.time. There are just squeezing us try. Far too many of them got in
:56:20. > :56:23.last time. All over the place. Things are on the up. I think people
:56:24. > :56:28.are more positive about everything. The current government configuring a
:56:29. > :56:31.job. The boundary changes and the mother of candidates makes it
:56:32. > :56:37.difficult to predict how all the seats will fall. There are so many
:56:38. > :56:46.things at the minute. The field will be so wide and varied. It will go
:56:47. > :56:50.down to the wire. A lot before the last two candidates are elected in
:56:51. > :56:55.Donegal. The boundaries may have changed here and it may look
:56:56. > :57:00.different but when the election is finally called, the fight for seats
:57:01. > :57:04.in Donegal will be as competitive as ever.
:57:05. > :57:05.Stephen Walker reporting from Donegal, and two more
:57:06. > :57:07.Independent candidates have now entered the fray -
:57:08. > :57:16.Let's hear more from Chris Donnelly and Felicity Huston.
:57:17. > :57:20.Chris, if the battle for seats in Donegal likely to be A microcosm of
:57:21. > :57:26.the broader General Election campaign? I don't think so. Donegal
:57:27. > :57:31.is unique, Sinn Fein are particularly strong there. One of
:57:32. > :57:36.the things for republicans along the border, Dublin as well. They're
:57:37. > :57:43.getting stronger. A three and week long campaign. Enda Kenny will be
:57:44. > :57:50.the first Fine Gael Taoiseach to gain real action. Enough Labour TDs
:57:51. > :57:56.for it give the coalition were Willie need a third party? The
:57:57. > :58:00.fascinating what ifs. As Chris says, a really short, sharp campaign?
:58:01. > :58:04.Absolutely and more of it please. I think everybody should have three
:58:05. > :58:12.weeks. That is the way you like it? Even if political anorak like me,
:58:13. > :58:16.that is plenty. Some real political anoraks are saying we might have a
:58:17. > :58:18.second election to sort this out. Some are I keep praying for that.
:58:19. > :58:24.The waiter it looks at the moment, if Labour are only said on nine or
:58:25. > :58:27.10%, that would be enough, as happened in the early 80s, there had
:58:28. > :58:32.to be a second election a few months it. We will see. Some people will be
:58:33. > :58:35.happy and some will not be happy. Wheels the key again later.
:58:36. > :58:39.Now, let's pause and take a look back at the week in 60 seconds
:58:40. > :58:49.In or out? In London the Taoiseach made clear his hopes in the dregs of
:58:50. > :58:55.debate. I want Britain to remain a central member of the EU and from
:58:56. > :58:59.our island point of view, this is a really critical issue. But back in
:59:00. > :59:02.Belfast the First Minister suggested Mr Kenny should keep it up so
:59:03. > :59:07.himself. He is entitled to an opinion and if you are that the end
:59:08. > :59:10.of the day it is a matter for the people of the UK. With the Assembly
:59:11. > :59:15.election coming up in a veteran decided to bow out. After eight
:59:16. > :59:19.years, some tough years as were the long, off with the old, on with the
:59:20. > :59:22.new. Or not so new as a familiar face re-entered the political arena.
:59:23. > :59:26.I am not someone who could possibly go off and have a nice life because
:59:27. > :59:30.I would find myself shouting at the television and getting frustrated.
:59:31. > :59:36.But what were the chances all parties doing away with election
:59:37. > :59:43.posters? I think the chances of that happening are slim. And a warning,
:59:44. > :59:48.always someone is listening. Mr Jim Allister... Chris Page reporting.
:59:49. > :59:53.Just time for a quick look ahead with Felicity and Chris.
:59:54. > :00:00.Naomi Long's turn has certainly been made pretty clear. She wants to come
:00:01. > :00:04.back to the Assembly. She was my MP and East Belfast and one that thinks
:00:05. > :00:07.it is great that is covering a lot of issues. She is strong on animal
:00:08. > :00:10.welfare, a massive issue in Northern Ireland. She gets back into the
:00:11. > :00:18.Assembly I think it will be a real plus for that and it should make
:00:19. > :00:24.sure David Ford's performance as he is in obvious new leader. She is a
:00:25. > :00:27.formidable politicians. It's to keep United candidate to defeat in East
:00:28. > :00:31.Belfast so it'll be interesting to see Alliance perform with her on the
:00:32. > :00:37.ticket in East Belfast. Arlene Foster has said Terry Wogan is a
:00:38. > :00:39.legend of broadcasting. It is part of my life. He has been broadcasting
:00:40. > :00:41.for so long. That is talk about themselves and the
:00:42. > :00:59.mayoral budget. Back to Andrew. Welcome back. Let's return to the
:01:00. > :01:02.issue of Google's tax bill. It is not just Google. Earlier I spoke to
:01:03. > :01:07.John McDonnell and asked him what he would do to make sure that companies
:01:08. > :01:12.like Google pay a fair and appropriate level of tax. First of
:01:13. > :01:15.all, I want the information about how the deal was arrived at and I
:01:16. > :01:23.want them in future to publish their tax records, the British part. So we
:01:24. > :01:28.can have openness and transparency, we can see what is fair. The
:01:29. > :01:33.Chancellor said this was a major success, but we cannot tell because
:01:34. > :01:38.we have not got the information. I would suggest that the Google row
:01:39. > :01:44.rumbles on by Google appearing with Andrew Marr this morning. There are
:01:45. > :01:47.other companies in the frame like Amazon, Apple, big investigation by
:01:48. > :01:52.the European Commission -- commission. And we discover that a
:01:53. > :01:56.lot of major British multinationals do not pay any are very small
:01:57. > :02:03.amounts of corporation tax. This issue has got a long way to go, I
:02:04. > :02:08.would suggest? Yes, and it could end up in a transatlantic almost cold
:02:09. > :02:13.war between the EU and the US and in particular US companies. Each side
:02:14. > :02:16.thinks the other is trying to exploit its site disproportionately.
:02:17. > :02:21.I wonder if eventually the people who ultimately lobby for
:02:22. > :02:24.International corporate tax reform and clarity will be corporations
:02:25. > :02:27.themselves. At the moment they are getting into trouble of what is
:02:28. > :02:31.ultimately observing the letter of the law, and certainly observing
:02:32. > :02:36.their duty to pay the legal minimum of tax, the duty they have to their
:02:37. > :02:39.shareholders. If that is getting them into trouble, I think they have
:02:40. > :02:43.an incentive in the long run to press for a clarity and reform
:02:44. > :02:48.internationally, even if it means their aggregate tax payment goes
:02:49. > :02:54.slightly upwards. The irony is that this row comes after there has been
:02:55. > :03:00.major changes at the OECD level, at EU level, on trying to simplify and
:03:01. > :03:04.get multinationals to pay their due tax. And yet we seem to be no
:03:05. > :03:09.further forward than before. I wonder if people start looking
:03:10. > :03:13.harder at corporation tax and whether that is the right way to
:03:14. > :03:19.proceed? S there are other ways of doing it. You can do it on turnover,
:03:20. > :03:23.sales. These large companies that are taking bigger and bigger slabs
:03:24. > :03:32.of the British markets are not paying their tax. Think of the
:03:33. > :03:39.people competing against Amazon. Argos, the local book shop... It is
:03:40. > :03:42.not fair. Their sense of indignation... Then to discover that
:03:43. > :03:47.the Conservative Party, while talking about how they are trying to
:03:48. > :03:51.clean this up and they are doing more than Labour, which possibly
:03:52. > :03:55.they are, meanwhile instructing their MEPs to vote against moves in
:03:56. > :03:59.Europe, to try to get a proper European agreement on this, it will
:04:00. > :04:04.not work unless we get a European agreement, and to find out that the
:04:05. > :04:08.Government says one thing speaking here but secretly in the European
:04:09. > :04:12.Parliament does something else. There are a lot of legs on this. A
:04:13. > :04:16.lot of trouble for the Conservative Party because it plays to their
:04:17. > :04:21.weakness, sick -- just a security and defence place to be Labour
:04:22. > :04:28.weakness. They are in bed with the big corporations. Do you think they
:04:29. > :04:31.are in bed with them? Politicians love meeting cutting edge companies.
:04:32. > :04:37.They do not spend that much time with steel companies. It is a bit of
:04:38. > :04:42.a stretch to then think that they were ever doing anything about
:04:43. > :04:49.Google's tax returns. I think it is quite a stretch. The Google top
:04:50. > :04:51.executive right at the heart of Downing Street, just as Andy Coulson
:04:52. > :04:57.from the Murdoch empire was right at the heart of Downing Street. You
:04:58. > :05:10.have got Seamus Milne at the heart of the Corbyn Empire. There is quite
:05:11. > :05:13.a difference! It is ironic, the International rules were meant to be
:05:14. > :05:20.cleaned up. They were meant to have done something about the double
:05:21. > :05:26.Irish and Dutch sandwich. I speak in tongues because that is how you have
:05:27. > :05:29.to do it these days. Unless there is a major radical change, I would
:05:30. > :05:32.suggest, if they carry on the current way, it will be another ten
:05:33. > :05:38.years before there are further changes? Yass and not only were the
:05:39. > :05:44.international rules meant to have been cleared up, George Osborne
:05:45. > :05:50.talked about how reprehensible aggressive tax avoidance is. Then
:05:51. > :05:53.last week he said the deal with Google is a special deal. The
:05:54. > :05:58.problem with George Osborne is he has forgotten the second part of
:05:59. > :06:06.Peter Mandelson's famous sentence about being relaxed about people
:06:07. > :06:11.getting rich... As long as they pay their tax. The problem for George
:06:12. > :06:13.Osborne is that he sees everything through a 2010 lens. This deal is
:06:14. > :06:22.much better than anything that happened under new Labour. That is
:06:23. > :06:25.six years ago. We have moved on. People are now judging this
:06:26. > :06:30.government on what they have done. It has been a long slow burning
:06:31. > :06:38.campaign. The tax Justice campaign has been brilliant. UK uncut Ren
:06:39. > :06:40.fantastic demonstrations against top shop, Vodafone, boots, people
:06:41. > :06:48.avoiding their taxes in elaborate ways. Witty campaigns the public
:06:49. > :06:53.saw. I think it is at the centre of it now. With other cases coming up,
:06:54. > :07:03.Apple and Amazon, Vodafone always in the frame... Just finally, I thought
:07:04. > :07:06.it was fascinating that Peter Borren of Google explained in effect that
:07:07. > :07:12.the money made in Britain and other places is then sent to Bermuda,
:07:13. > :07:18.essentially warehoused in Bermuda. It is a tax haven. If they
:07:19. > :07:22.repatriated back to California headquarters, they would pay
:07:23. > :07:29.corporation tax in America and they think that is too high. America
:07:30. > :07:34.corporate tax is run about 40%. Apple has about 200 billion US
:07:35. > :07:38.dollars in cash reserves internationally. Let's move on to
:07:39. > :07:44.the referendum. I got the impression from listening to John McDonnell and
:07:45. > :07:48.other Labour shadow ministers I have interviewed that there is no
:07:49. > :07:52.appetite on the Labour front bench to delay this referendum. I think
:07:53. > :07:56.they would like to get on with it? S they want to get on with it, then
:07:57. > :08:00.wanted to succeed. They want the yes campaign to win. At the moment
:08:01. > :08:08.Labour is not doing very well with it. It ought to be a great hallmark
:08:09. > :08:12.for them. Labour is almost unequivocally pro-EU. They should be
:08:13. > :08:18.making a lot of capital against every split Tory party and they are
:08:19. > :08:23.not, really. It is not clear why. Maybe their hearts are not in it. It
:08:24. > :08:29.is led by two people who voted to come out into -- 19 75. Alan Johnson
:08:30. > :08:32.woman who is leading the campaign, does not appear to be making much
:08:33. > :08:37.headway. Maybe they are waiting until Cameron comes back with a
:08:38. > :08:41.package. I think they are missing a trick. The Eurosceptics want more
:08:42. > :08:48.time. They fear if it is rushed, they will definitely lose. But for a
:08:49. > :08:55.June referendum in the Commons, it would need Labour as well. It is
:08:56. > :08:59.clearly not going to happen. The only thing that could stop it,
:09:00. > :09:02.because the numbers are now not in the Commons, is if the electoral
:09:03. > :09:06.commission, bearing in mind you have the leaders of the three devolved
:09:07. > :09:11.administrations saying they're not happy, that is the only thing that
:09:12. > :09:15.could potentially stop it. Now that the Labour Party is saying we should
:09:16. > :09:19.get on with it, it looks like that will happen. People like Steve Baker
:09:20. > :09:23.needs to be careful. They have been saying for 20 years we need a
:09:24. > :09:27.referendum. Here it is coming down the stream and they say, we are not
:09:28. > :09:32.sure about it. That potentially shows they are nervous about the
:09:33. > :09:36.case. One of the most telling thing is Steve Baker said was the number
:09:37. > :09:41.of Tory MPs who would vote to leave would be no more than 70, which is
:09:42. > :09:47.clearly expectations management on his party that's my part. What you
:09:48. > :09:56.have seen in the past 72 hours is expectations management on all
:09:57. > :10:02.sides. Downing Street is dampening down expectations. We are all
:10:03. > :10:06.massively impressed. I hope you are right that he is that clever. What
:10:07. > :10:10.worries me is that he has been reckless. He has put things out
:10:11. > :10:18.there that he could never get. He has not put everybody square. If not
:10:19. > :10:21.clever, certainly cynical. Steve Baker and the sceptics are playing
:10:22. > :10:29.down their expected numbers, even Cabinet ministers. The area where
:10:30. > :10:33.George Osborne thinks he will make the most fundamental and important
:10:34. > :10:40.changes as the exceptions for those countries not in the eurozone. That
:10:41. > :10:44.gets very little coverage. George Osborne says that is the most
:10:45. > :10:48.important thing we could get because it will play for decades to come.
:10:49. > :10:54.The territory they are fighting on is the area where they are quite
:10:55. > :10:59.weak, benefits reform. We will have another referendum in 2021 when
:11:00. > :11:03.treaty change takes place and the eurozone becomes a proper monetary
:11:04. > :11:08.union. I don't think anybody is go to do a treaty change for a long
:11:09. > :11:11.time. The mood across Europe, particularly about immigration and
:11:12. > :11:20.refugee is, I think nobody will want a treaty. It is all talk. I do not
:11:21. > :11:22.see it. I don't think anybody will trust their own electorate
:11:23. > :11:29.sufficiently at any particular point. They will look at hours with
:11:30. > :11:35.great interest. And they will say, don't go there. Before we go, a sad
:11:36. > :11:39.morning today. We learned that veteran broadcaster Terry Wogan has
:11:40. > :11:43.died at the age of 77 after a short battle with cancer. Over his many
:11:44. > :11:46.years in broadcasting, he interviewed a great number of
:11:47. > :11:50.people, including politicians. He really is talking to Margaret
:11:51. > :11:54.Thatcher. What do the next ten years hold for
:11:55. > :12:05.us and for our Prime Minister? Mrs Margaret Thatcher. You ever
:12:06. > :12:12.apprehensive? Are you ever nervous before you get up and speak? Always.
:12:13. > :12:15.And you would not speak well if you were not. I have been answering
:12:16. > :12:21.questions in the House every Tuesday and Thursday for ten years. And I am
:12:22. > :12:26.still just as nervous as I was at the beginning. It requires immense
:12:27. > :12:30.preparation. You have seen your share of trouble and strife and
:12:31. > :12:38.success. What have been your worst moments? The worst moment on totally
:12:39. > :12:42.was when the Argentinians invaded the Falkland Islands. I will never
:12:43. > :12:48.forget it. With the worries and some of the terrible problems you have
:12:49. > :12:55.had, do you have any time for personal worries? We have been very
:12:56. > :12:59.lucky. You know Dennis very well. You both belong to Lord's Tavern is.
:13:00. > :13:09.Everyone knows Dennis. He is marvellous! Why did your audience
:13:10. > :13:12.laugh when you mentioned him? He is held in great affection by everyone
:13:13. > :13:15.because he has the tremendous knack for saying things people would love
:13:16. > :13:19.to say but they're not. Terry Wogan, one of the most
:13:20. > :13:23.accomplished and professional, charming broadcasters in modern
:13:24. > :13:28.times. Sadly died this morning. We learn from his family. Terry Wogan.
:13:29. > :13:34.That is it for today. I thank all of my guests. The daily politics will
:13:35. > :13:38.be on BBC Two from noon tomorrow and every day next week, including Prime
:13:39. > :13:42.Minister's Questions on Wednesday. I am back your macro same time, same
:13:43. > :13:46.place next week. We will know more about the American election campaign
:13:47. > :13:52.by them. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.