:01:25. > :01:28.And on Sunday politics in Scotland, what is the first ministers
:01:28. > :01:32.negotiating position as the talks begin on the referendum questions
:01:33. > :01:42.and conditions? And what has the Scottish Secretary got to say about
:01:43. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :28:01.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1578 seconds
:28:01. > :28:09.Subtitles will resume shortly. We have no control over the fiscal
:28:09. > :28:17.levers. This exists for most countries, but a complete control
:28:17. > :28:24.of all of the levers. The Bank of England will have a big say on how
:28:24. > :28:30.much you borrow. They will want to control the borrowing. Each country
:28:30. > :28:33.borrows its own money. There is a sovereign problem. I would not
:28:33. > :28:40.imagine any government of persuasion would want to over-
:28:40. > :28:44.borrowed to the extent of this. have our business partner as London.
:28:44. > :28:49.If we became a separate nation it would be our biggest competitor.
:28:49. > :28:53.What we are saying is that we are letting a our biggest competitor
:28:53. > :29:03.set the interest rates and limits. How is that economically credible
:29:03. > :29:04.
:29:04. > :29:13.for a separate nation. Final word. We will have control over the
:29:13. > :29:18.fiscal levers, that is a far better position than what we have now. We
:29:18. > :29:21.sell there and buy from England as we compete from and buy from
:29:21. > :29:31.countries around the world. We don't deal with England just as
:29:31. > :29:33.
:29:33. > :29:42.part of United Kingdom or whether It is coming up to 12:30pm. You are
:29:42. > :29:47.watching the Sunday politics. afternoon, welcome to the new look
:29:47. > :29:52.Sunday politics in Scotland. The First Minister on his approach to
:29:52. > :29:56.the referendum negotiations between Holyrood and Westminster. He says
:29:56. > :30:02.he would rather talk to David and Nick, the Scottish Secretary is
:30:02. > :30:06.here to talk to us about his lines in the sand. And the road to
:30:06. > :30:16.devolution, what role will civic society play in this independence
:30:16. > :30:23.debate. So, one week down and only 139 weeks to go in the independence
:30:23. > :30:33.referendum debate. Nina Buchanan has been looking at how and when
:30:33. > :30:37.
:30:37. > :30:42.Politically the stakes don't get any higher than this. The main
:30:42. > :30:48.prize is the constitutional future. After years of wrangling, all of
:30:48. > :30:52.the main players agree, they should be a referendum vote. David Cameron
:30:52. > :30:55.was the first to show some of his hand. There can only be a
:30:55. > :31:00.referendum if Westminster this be the glue authority for it to take
:31:00. > :31:06.place. He says that could happen but only with conditions. We should
:31:06. > :31:12.not just let this go on year after year. It is damaging for everybody.
:31:12. > :31:16.Let us clear up the situation. My view is sooner rather than later
:31:16. > :31:21.would be better. The Lib Dem Scottish secretary then said what
:31:21. > :31:27.they would expect from a referendum. They would expect electoral
:31:27. > :31:33.commission to be involved, No 16 year olds get into votes, and one
:31:33. > :31:38.simple yes or no question. But Alex Salmond, flush with his boats from
:31:38. > :31:44.the last election, said he did not need to play by Westminster rules
:31:44. > :31:48.and seemed to suggest his view was there should be no deal. This is a
:31:48. > :31:54.huge decision for Scotland. Potentially the biggest decision we
:31:54. > :32:00.have made for a nation for 300 years. We will not be cocooned by a
:32:00. > :32:05.Tory prime minister in London. Friday he seemed to re-enter the
:32:05. > :32:08.game saying he would meet up with the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime
:32:08. > :32:13.Minister to discuss a potential referendum deal. What is there to
:32:13. > :32:20.discuss? The insistence on giving 16 year olds the vote, and the
:32:20. > :32:24.policy of an independent commission to run the election. The climax is
:32:24. > :32:28.a potential second question, asking for more powers for the Scottish
:32:28. > :32:33.parliament. Something the main Unionist parties don't want to get
:32:33. > :32:38.into. These are risky times for the Labour Party, in Scotland and
:32:38. > :32:42.London. They suggest they would prefer greater powers for the
:32:42. > :32:47.Scottish parliament, but have no firm policy on that. I simply say
:32:47. > :32:52.no they risk applying themselves closely with the Conservatives.
:32:52. > :32:56.it is not fair on scholar now, or Scotland of the future for the
:32:56. > :33:04.timing of this referendum to be the there in the hands of one
:33:04. > :33:09.politician. This referendum belongs not to politicians but to the
:33:09. > :33:15.people of Scotland. Therefore, it is the challenge of leadership to
:33:15. > :33:18.build a consensus on how the referendum is run. How will this
:33:18. > :33:22.all played out in the long run, foreign first ministry could accept
:33:22. > :33:27.the Westminster deal and get his yes or no referendum. The opinion
:33:27. > :33:32.polls suggest that the moment he would lose it. Or he could go it
:33:32. > :33:37.alone, but that risks a legal challenge. He will then have to win
:33:37. > :33:41.the referendum, supposing the courts allow him to. Then for the
:33:41. > :33:45.coalition there are risks. If the deal is done we could lose Scotland
:33:45. > :33:49.and the Union. If this goes to the courts it could be seen as an
:33:49. > :33:54.obstacle to the will of the Scottish people. For the Labour
:33:54. > :33:59.Party, it could be seen as co- operating with the Conservatives in
:33:59. > :34:03.Scotland, which is electronic toxic. At the moment they have yet to come
:34:03. > :34:10.up with a coherent policy which would see new powers for Edinburgh.
:34:10. > :34:15.Currently, they are simply saying The first minister is currently on
:34:15. > :34:19.a trip to United Arab Emirates, but before he went, he met us. He said
:34:19. > :34:24.he is very happy to have talks but is unsure whether he will get the
:34:24. > :34:29.top-level discussions he wants any time soon. I have been trying to
:34:29. > :34:38.meet the Prime Minister about six times since we last met in July.
:34:38. > :34:42.Each time, Downing Street has been a un keen on having we are in a
:34:42. > :34:48.Thatcher like mode, the Prime Minister is behaving like Thatcher.
:34:48. > :34:54.Perhaps he has flipped, as she used to save. I do hope we can get into
:34:54. > :34:59.meaningful discussions. Just so long as what is excepted are right
:34:59. > :35:06.for Scotland. These matters were debated extensively at the election
:35:06. > :35:11.of Scotland, the SNP government and other people who supports cholent
:35:11. > :35:16.have a commanding majority in the parliament. -- who support Scotland.
:35:16. > :35:21.We are happier tittle, but it must be on the basis that these matters
:35:21. > :35:26.are Scotland's decision. They must be a referendum constructed in
:35:26. > :35:30.Scotland and decided by the good wisdom and judgment of BP poor.
:35:30. > :35:34.whom do you have to top, Michael Moore, you must talk to when you
:35:34. > :35:39.want to. Does it have to be the prime minister and deputy prime
:35:39. > :35:43.minister? What is the meaningful interaction at this stage? Clearly
:35:43. > :35:48.it must be with those making the decisions. The cavernous set up
:35:48. > :35:54.what they call a quarter, a group of people who spend their time
:35:54. > :35:57.dreaming up how they can deal with the Scottish question. That
:35:57. > :36:01.includes the Prime Minister and Chancellor, the Liberal Party
:36:01. > :36:06.leader and Danny Alexander. It does not involve the Scottish Secretary.
:36:06. > :36:10.Do you have to speak to members of that group or it is it not worth
:36:10. > :36:13.having a conversation at this stage? When the UK Cabinet took the
:36:13. > :36:20.extraordinary actions this week it was George Osborne, the Chancellor
:36:20. > :36:24.of the Exchequer, who presented it. You must talk to folk making the
:36:25. > :36:30.decision. I will talk to anybody. If you are going to make progress,
:36:30. > :36:34.you must talk to those making the decision. Are you disappointed they
:36:34. > :36:41.haven't agreed to talk? I am disappointed but I don't think it
:36:41. > :36:44.is sustainable. You must not say you just step back, and leave
:36:44. > :36:49.somebody else to do the talking. The Downing Street position is
:36:49. > :36:53.unsustainable. Willett be impossible to have a resolution in
:36:53. > :37:00.the next eight weeks on BT's substantive issue? Unless there is
:37:00. > :37:06.fast movement? I am always prepared to move fast but the timetable we
:37:06. > :37:10.will set in Scotland, is a proper timetable. A week on Wednesday, we
:37:10. > :37:14.will be introducing to the Scottish parliament the consultation
:37:14. > :37:18.document from the government, for the Scottish Community. Not just
:37:18. > :37:22.for politicians but for the whole Scottish community, civic Scotland,
:37:22. > :37:27.about our proposals as a government and how we should conduct the
:37:27. > :37:32.referendum. Then we will listen to the boys of Scotland. That is how
:37:32. > :37:37.we must proceed. Not with some artificially constructed timetable
:37:38. > :37:42.dreamt up in the bowels of Downing Street. If we look then, to be
:37:42. > :37:47.essential tool, what happens with the legality of Scottish parliament
:37:47. > :37:51.holding a referendum? When he published the legal advice?
:37:51. > :37:56.Governments don't publish legal advice, I will not start. But there
:37:56. > :38:04.is plenty of advice out there. With the constitutional law and
:38:04. > :38:08.Edinburgh University. The people who wrote the textbook on it. The
:38:08. > :38:14.government had only said what their opinion is, they have not publish
:38:14. > :38:19.the legal advice. See if we can cut through this though, nobody in the
:38:19. > :38:27.SNP government has an objection to section 30. A legally binding
:38:27. > :38:33.referendum. What we object to is the strength attached to section 30.
:38:33. > :38:37.It was offered as a great gesture, but then you say, incidentally,
:38:37. > :38:44.when you hold this referendum this is how you well-conducted and who
:38:45. > :38:49.will vote. Just before we leave the legal aspect, what do you do with
:38:49. > :38:53.these legal loose ends which could unravel spectacularly? Injecting
:38:53. > :39:01.some poison to the body politics. It could have an effect for many
:39:01. > :39:06.years. Most of the referendums which have been conducted need to
:39:06. > :39:10.be consulted. I am happy to have a legally binding referendum, but the
:39:10. > :39:16.facts is, the referendum, which the coalition government conducted last
:39:16. > :39:23.year, it was a Conservative referendum. Nothing unusual about
:39:23. > :39:27.that, but I am happy to have a legally binding one. Not with
:39:27. > :39:32.Westminster setting the terms and conditions though. These are days
:39:32. > :39:39.that are over. Can I ask you about the Scottish Conservative point.
:39:39. > :39:44.Unless it is legally binding, then, you will have access not to be full
:39:44. > :39:51.official register, but to be publicly available register, and
:39:51. > :39:56.that effectively disenfranchise is them. Scottish Tories have got it
:39:56. > :40:01.wrong in every respect. The referendum, whether it is legally
:40:01. > :40:04.binding on not, will be an act of Scottish parliament. That Act
:40:04. > :40:09.defines the electoral register and it would be the full electoral
:40:09. > :40:14.register. You have nothing to negotiate. He said it is our deal
:40:14. > :40:18.or no deal, but that is not sustainable. At some point the
:40:18. > :40:24.public think it is manipulative if the SNP choose the question, who
:40:24. > :40:30.runs it, who votes, if they are in for Scotland's interests, they will
:40:30. > :40:36.negotiate, so what do you negotiate. If you get the timing the ones, are
:40:36. > :40:40.you willing to say, just one question? We should wait until the
:40:40. > :40:44.documents are published, a week on Wednesday. Many of the anxieties of
:40:44. > :40:49.fears that people have raised will disappear when the consultation
:40:49. > :40:54.document is issued. The one thing we can't surrender, the one thing
:40:54. > :40:58.we can't give up on, is that these are matters for Scotland and the
:40:58. > :41:02.Scottish Parliament to decide. The Scottish committee to decide. We
:41:02. > :41:08.cannot have a Scottish referendum on the future of this country, the
:41:08. > :41:14.biggest decision for 300 years, manipulated in Downing Street.
:41:14. > :41:19.you look at what may be acceptable to you now, what the existing
:41:19. > :41:22.electoral commission be acceptable to you to run the referendum, if it
:41:22. > :41:27.were to report to the Scottish parliament. As is your rights, you
:41:27. > :41:31.are trying to get me to describe the entire context of a
:41:31. > :41:37.consultation document. But Parliament would look askance if I
:41:37. > :41:42.did. The consultation document will take things forward, what it will
:41:42. > :41:48.never ever give up on is that these are matters for Scotland to decide.
:41:48. > :41:53.Can I ask you who were defined the devo-max question? That is the
:41:53. > :41:57.elephant in the room. That is a point I have may not just this week
:41:57. > :42:02.but in the months passed. The SNP must define independence. That is
:42:02. > :42:07.our job, we are the party for independence and I have called
:42:07. > :42:11.successfully and successively for the devo-max position to be defined.
:42:11. > :42:16.The documents have defined what the position could be, but I do accept
:42:16. > :42:21.it is for others to come forward. It has some very important
:42:21. > :42:26.champions in Scottish society, Scotland's biggest job at the
:42:26. > :42:30.moment, with Jim a call, he was an ardent supporter of the vote next.
:42:30. > :42:36.Many of the Civic positions are very keen on the Defoe Max
:42:36. > :42:42.proposition. I think they should have three time and space to define
:42:42. > :42:50.the option. -- devo-max. Do you retain the position, as highlighted,
:42:50. > :42:55.that if devo-max is a referendum question, a 51 per cent vote for
:42:55. > :43:00.independence would secured independence even if there is a 78
:43:00. > :43:07.per cent, 82 per cent vote, for devo-max. That is not a sustainable
:43:07. > :43:14.proposition, is it? Thinking back to 1997 when we had a two question
:43:14. > :43:18.referendum, in 1997, the percentage vote for the parliament without
:43:18. > :43:22.taxation powers was higher than the vote for a parliament with taxation
:43:22. > :43:25.powers. The first vote was higher than the second vote. The
:43:26. > :43:30.formulation of the questions is part of the discussion.
:43:30. > :43:35.Incidentally, despite the fact the Prime Minister has been adamant in
:43:35. > :43:42.saying only one question, if you look at the consultation document
:43:42. > :43:46.released it asks for consultation on questions, after ruling out
:43:46. > :43:51.another question, they are willing to consult on it. A number of
:43:51. > :43:55.contradictions coming from London over the last few days. Are you
:43:55. > :44:05.saying that he would consider possibly having a street --
:44:05. > :44:09.straight devo-max question? We will consult the proposals, the
:44:09. > :44:14.proposals which the government think are sensible. Hours, perhaps
:44:14. > :44:17.like -- unlike the ones elsewhere, will be for the community of
:44:17. > :44:24.Scotland and in consultation with the Committee of Scotland. Another
:44:24. > :44:27.option, if the community of Scotland wishes. Let me ask you
:44:27. > :44:32.about the deepening crisis in the euro-zone. Is it your position now
:44:32. > :44:37.that whatever happens in the euro- zone, Scotland will at some point,
:44:37. > :44:42.it is your intention, to ask: to join the euro? What are we now
:44:42. > :44:47.moving towards territory where you will have to review that? We will
:44:47. > :44:51.have to see what comes up. For a monetary union to come together its
:44:51. > :44:55.does not need fiscal union. It's set in its fiscal discipline, but
:44:55. > :44:59.that is not something which frightens us. Fiscal integration
:44:59. > :45:03.would be something different. We are not at that stage. Many
:45:03. > :45:07.questions within the euro, very successfully in the euro, not the
:45:07. > :45:14.ones under great pressure right now which has struggled, but our
:45:14. > :45:19.position is staying with sterling until we can take a position on the
:45:20. > :45:23.euro. It is a strong situation, I was amazed to hear, not said, but
:45:23. > :45:28.reported in the press, that we would not be allowed to use
:45:28. > :45:33.sterling. The UK government cannot stop and independence: from using
:45:33. > :45:37.sterling. 1, sterling is not owned by George Osborne, he has been
:45:37. > :45:41.chancellor for 18 months. Sterling has been around a long time. The
:45:41. > :45:47.Bank of England was founded by a Scot before the act of Unionism.
:45:47. > :45:57.But it is a convertible currency. You could not stop people. I don't
:45:57. > :46:01.
:46:01. > :46:11.know what George Osborne has his But if the euro does not develop in
:46:11. > :46:12.
:46:12. > :46:17.ways you like, we might stay with Sterling forever? Our purpose is to
:46:17. > :46:20.further the Scottish interest, anything we do will always be in
:46:20. > :46:26.the Scottish interest. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does
:46:26. > :46:33.not own Sterling and he cannot prevent people in Scotland from
:46:33. > :46:37.using it. But you think in your mind it may not be beneficial to
:46:37. > :46:42.Scotland to enter the euro? great advantage of independence is
:46:42. > :46:47.that it allowed you to choose what is in the best interests of
:46:47. > :46:52.Scotland, even under devolution deer are many subjects, defence,
:46:52. > :47:02.social security, where we cannot choose what is in the best
:47:02. > :47:04.
:47:04. > :47:08.interests of our country. The First Minister seems to be suggesting
:47:08. > :47:13.there is not a lot of point in talking to you, do you still want
:47:13. > :47:18.to meet within this week? I think it is important that we should go
:47:18. > :47:23.on and discuss what we will do to make sure that in Scotland we
:47:23. > :47:28.create a referendum on the biggest decision we will ever take in our
:47:28. > :47:33.lives here in this country. We must make sure it is legal and that at
:47:33. > :47:43.the end of the process we will know exactly remit will leave us here in
:47:43. > :47:47.
:47:47. > :47:56.Scotland. Either as part of one of the most six six full -- successful
:47:56. > :48:00.nations in history or on our own. I drafted the consultation document
:48:00. > :48:04.which I prayer presented -- represented to the Commons on
:48:04. > :48:10.Tuesday. We have worked together as a Government and as a cabinet
:48:10. > :48:15.agreed that. It does not just involve us as politicians, it is
:48:15. > :48:21.about people across Scotland being able to be part of the
:48:21. > :48:25.consideration of how we make this most important choice. The
:48:25. > :48:30.fundamental starting point is that it should be legal. Alex Salmond is
:48:30. > :48:35.making a distinction between legally binding or consultative. At
:48:35. > :48:41.the moment we could not have any kind of a referendum because it is
:48:41. > :48:47.not a power of the Scottish Parliament. It needs to be. We have
:48:47. > :48:56.to give the Scottish Parliament the power. We must make the referendum
:48:56. > :49:00.here in Scotland and have a fair one. On May 7th on this show when I
:49:00. > :49:06.asked if you accept that the Scottish Parliament has the right
:49:06. > :49:12.and the legal power to build a referendum on independence you said
:49:12. > :49:18.we could I suppose make a constitutional issue but I do not
:49:18. > :49:25.think that is a sensible use of anyone's time. You said it is much
:49:25. > :49:32.more important we have their debate than have a debate about whether we
:49:32. > :49:37.can have an debate. What has changed? As we looked carefully at
:49:37. > :49:42.the situation it is very evident to me and to most people that I talk
:49:42. > :49:47.to than the legal power is not there so what I have said about
:49:47. > :49:53.let's not have a debate about the debate, I think temper rally we
:49:53. > :49:58.will have to have that. We must ensure the politicians clear the
:49:58. > :50:04.rules of the game. Politicians across Scotland can give us their
:50:04. > :50:09.views and I started a process on Tuesday so we can have a referendum
:50:09. > :50:13.here at home in Scotland which is fair and clear cut. What we do not
:50:13. > :50:19.want at the end of this process is to have a referendum where someone
:50:19. > :50:25.might challenge the result. This is huge, it is really important about
:50:25. > :50:30.our future so let's get on with it. We will look at your consultation
:50:30. > :50:40.paper in more detail in a moment but can you give us your opinion on
:50:40. > :50:40.
:50:40. > :50:43.the Sterling issue? This is absolutely central to the debate,
:50:43. > :50:50.whether or not Scotland continued with Sterling is a matter that
:50:50. > :50:57.would have to be discussed and debated. What we have been seeing
:50:57. > :51:04.is that -- saying is that you have to be clear whether or not you are
:51:04. > :51:08.going to accept that your interest rates will be set in London.
:51:08. > :51:14.have heard a lot of debate about the mechanics but in principle do
:51:14. > :51:24.you accept that Scotland has the legal right to continue using
:51:24. > :51:28.Sterling post-independence? If that is part of the deal that the
:51:28. > :51:34.independence section of the debate wanted that would be part of it. We
:51:34. > :51:37.could have it but I think you would have to think of the consequences
:51:37. > :51:46.about who would set interest rates and what it would mean for you
:51:46. > :51:56.spending and borrowing plans. I have seen senior SNP members asked
:51:56. > :52:00.about that and the do not get onto it. Just to move along, there is a
:52:00. > :52:10.lot of ground I want to cover, briefly, it is it the case you have
:52:10. > :52:13.
:52:13. > :52:19.now actually conceded Debate? -- the date. What we said is we want
:52:19. > :52:23.to get on with it and have it sooner rather than later. But if it
:52:24. > :52:33.is autumn 2014, can you live with that? The First Minister has put
:52:33. > :52:37.that forward as his preference. We are engaging voices across Scotland.
:52:37. > :52:46.We will see where the debate glance but I'm very firmly believe we
:52:46. > :52:51.should have it at -- as soon as we can. So that is not a line in the
:52:51. > :52:55.sand for you. Can we also get clarity on the idea that you could
:52:55. > :53:01.legislate to allow the electoral commission to report to the
:53:01. > :53:05.Scottish Government in the case of this referendum. Is it the case
:53:05. > :53:12.that you think that is something you might concede and it might be
:53:12. > :53:15.constructive? That was in the consultation document. We envisaged
:53:15. > :53:18.that we couldn't of a body like the electoral commission which is
:53:19. > :53:28.neutral and has a great deal of experience of running these types
:53:29. > :53:30.
:53:30. > :53:33.of events so, yes. Just to clarify, to specifically report to the
:53:33. > :53:39.Scottish Parliament, that is the whole point? You would change the
:53:39. > :53:44.law to allow that to happen? that was in the document I launched
:53:44. > :53:52.on Tuesday for those who wish to look at it. Page 15 down the bottom.
:53:52. > :54:02.It is very clearly the year. -- very clearly the it. Yes, that is
:54:02. > :54:06.
:54:06. > :54:11.there and that is how we envisage it. -- clearly there. Under the
:54:11. > :54:21.heading a decisive referendum, what are your views on the question or
:54:21. > :54:22.
:54:22. > :54:26.questions to be asked in the referendum? Will you negotiate?
:54:26. > :54:32.said on Tuesday and all colleagues have been saying the same thing
:54:32. > :54:35.that our preference is for a single question. We think we need to
:54:35. > :54:39.resolve this fundamentally important matter. Are we in
:54:39. > :54:45.Scotland going to continue as part of the UK or are we going to go our
:54:45. > :54:49.separate way? That is the question that needs to be asked. The reason
:54:49. > :54:54.I think we need a single question is that clearly the SNP got a
:54:54. > :54:58.majority in May last year which committed them to a referendum on
:54:58. > :55:02.independence. We need to allow them to have that and that is what the
:55:02. > :55:05.debate is around. Once we have resolved that matter I think it is
:55:05. > :55:11.entirely right that we should consider within the UK what our
:55:11. > :55:16.powers are. How would like to give the Scottish Parliament many more
:55:16. > :55:25.powers along with other parties in Scotland but we want to resolve the
:55:25. > :55:29.simple question, do we want to be independent or not? For a lot of
:55:29. > :55:36.Botha's this will be confusing because one option is pretty much
:55:36. > :55:44.federalism. It is presented as a safety measure for the First
:55:44. > :55:48.Minister but it could be a safety measure for the union. I think it
:55:48. > :55:52.is important we resolve the question of whether we stay as part
:55:52. > :55:57.of the UK or not. After that I think there is an entirely
:55:58. > :56:02.legitimate debate about how much further we want to enhance the
:56:02. > :56:09.Scottish Parliament's powers. Willie Rennie has already set up a
:56:10. > :56:19.commission chaired by men Campbell which looks at these powers. --
:56:20. > :56:21.
:56:21. > :56:28.Ming. The issue for now is, are we continuing with in the UK? Thank
:56:28. > :56:35.you for talking to us. So, who will champion the massive expanse of
:56:35. > :56:43.political territory between the Scotland Bill recommendations and
:56:43. > :56:48.full-blown independence. What does that mean? It is allies down for
:56:48. > :56:56.musical bingo in Edinburgh. People are known to come out in force on
:56:56. > :57:06.polling day but eight Scotland fear the use of organisations like
:57:06. > :57:08.
:57:08. > :57:12.theirs will be drowned out by party politics. What we have seen in the
:57:12. > :57:17.first week is that the debate has all been about process and name-
:57:17. > :57:20.calling between Westminster and Holyrood. So that the people of
:57:20. > :57:28.Scotland are given an informed choice it is important that civic
:57:28. > :57:38.society takes a hold of this whole debate. Lycee know and we are the
:57:38. > :57:39.
:57:39. > :57:49.State, will we say yes and we are dead people. -- we say. -- the
:57:49. > :57:52.
:57:52. > :57:59.people. The STUC want to set up a referendum commission. Decisions
:57:59. > :58:02.taken by the political parties on things like proportional
:58:02. > :58:10.representation is fundamental to getting the broad consensus which
:58:10. > :58:15.led to quite a united campaign for the issues on the referendum.
:58:15. > :58:19.you see met for the first time in 1989 here at the General Assembly
:58:19. > :58:23.Halls on the mind where they discussed the formation of the
:58:23. > :58:33.Scottish Parliament. It is hoped that now the views of civic society
:58:33. > :58:37.
:58:37. > :58:42.will be heard again. In bigger nations like England Germany or
:58:42. > :58:48.France it is different. This organisation will play a
:58:48. > :58:54.determining role in the referendum. We will listen to civic Scotland
:58:54. > :59:02.and their point of view. But is listening putting a second question
:59:03. > :59:10.on the ballot paper? If it is a simple choice of independence or
:59:10. > :59:17.the status quo, independence might win. Something in between the two
:59:17. > :59:21.extremes might be the option that would win. The challenge for those
:59:21. > :59:27.representing civics society is how it they can work together on the
:59:27. > :59:34.next 2.5 years to get the questions they want on the ballot paper. With
:59:34. > :59:42.me in the studio now is the chairman of the think tank Reform
:59:42. > :59:47.Scotland and someone who chaired the Scottish Civic Forum. Are the
:59:47. > :59:50.politicians letting us down this week? His party politics taking too
:59:50. > :59:56.much of it all and we should be looking at the wider interests of
:59:56. > :00:03.Scotland? I think no one who really cares about the future of Scotland
:00:03. > :00:09.could want to keep the third option of the ballot paper. It is quite
:00:09. > :00:16.clear that that is the kind of option that the largest majority of
:00:16. > :00:20.Scottish voters would feel most comfortable with at the moment. It
:00:20. > :00:25.should be a question which allows people who want to opt for
:00:25. > :00:30.independence to do so and for those who have not done so to say that
:00:30. > :00:37.short of independence would you like to open negotiations for more
:00:37. > :00:47.powers? There has been a huge amount of breath wasted this week
:00:47. > :00:51.
:00:51. > :01:00.over legality. I think anything which does not allow more enhanced
:01:00. > :01:04.evolution options is not good. I do not think they should have a
:01:04. > :01:13.definite No or yes to independence because if it is a narrow know it
:01:13. > :01:18.where does that leave us? It does not end the question of
:01:18. > :01:25.independence. In whose interests is that? It is just party politicians
:01:25. > :01:30.trying to do each other down. anything clear to you about where
:01:30. > :01:34.this is going? The process is not particularly clear. I think that
:01:34. > :01:39.what we have seen in the last week has been a lot of party political
:01:39. > :01:44.posturing. The point is we are not looking at the different options
:01:44. > :01:48.and the details of those options, whether that is a form of
:01:48. > :01:54.independence or what is actually what the status quo can offer us or
:01:55. > :02:00.from our point of view what the alternative is in the middle.
:02:00. > :02:09.middle ground is massive. Who should formulate the devolution
:02:09. > :02:13.plus question? What we have done at the Reform Scotland is over the
:02:13. > :02:18.course of the past few years is worked out a very specific proposal.
:02:18. > :02:28.It may not be the best one but it has at least been well thought out
:02:28. > :02:35.It is much easier to have a debate when something detailed is put on
:02:35. > :02:40.the table. We can say which bits we like and what we don't. If they put
:02:40. > :02:44.something forward for discussion, it adds something. The difference
:02:44. > :02:47.from the 1990s is the difference of the Unionist parties in Scotland
:02:47. > :02:52.which has left this debate being dominated by voices from
:02:52. > :02:57.Westminster who are behind the game and I'd using the wrong language.
:02:57. > :03:03.They are using the language of negativity, of confrontation, that
:03:03. > :03:07.will not, for a progressive Unionist position, do. We are
:03:07. > :03:10.lacking strong, party political voices from Scotland who are taking
:03:10. > :03:16.a broadly Unionist position but have a progressive view about how
:03:16. > :03:22.it should evolve. It is just not there at the moment but it is down
:03:22. > :03:30.to civil society, which is not as strong as it was in the 1990s.
:03:30. > :03:33.oh, do you think it is up to civil society to do this? The aim must
:03:33. > :03:37.put pressure on the Labour Party and Liberal Democrats to adopt a
:03:37. > :03:42.more dynamic approach to this referendum and make sure the devo-
:03:42. > :03:47.max option is there. He what the polls are telling us is that this
:03:47. > :03:50.is the preferred option. Two-thirds of people support something in the
:03:50. > :03:56.middle. They recognise the process is not working for England or
:03:56. > :04:02.Scotland. Also, as a majority in the polls, they don't want to go
:04:02. > :04:06.for independence. The middle option as the populist support. If this
:04:06. > :04:10.middle option wins, who has mandated it? Who are the self-
:04:10. > :04:14.selecting groups to have come up with the idea and how do you
:04:14. > :04:19.enforce it at Westminster in negotiations there? As a number of
:04:19. > :04:25.people have pointed out the power is already in place. If one wanted
:04:25. > :04:29.to, to go down the route of devolution plus or devo-max which
:04:29. > :04:33.the SNP government is putting forward as an alternative. Whoever
:04:33. > :04:37.comes up with the alternative must be on the front for it by saying
:04:37. > :04:41.this is our preferred option. The Scottish government cannot say it
:04:41. > :04:45.is their preferred option. They must say it is the best option for
:04:45. > :04:50.Scotland and what comes out of it forms the best relationship with
:04:50. > :04:55.the UK. It would then be for the Scottish government, after the
:04:55. > :05:00.referendum, whoever that is, to take it forward. They are not
:05:00. > :05:05.legally bound, but mandated, clearly mandated by the Scottish
:05:05. > :05:09.people to negotiate some form of enhanced devolution. If the
:05:09. > :05:13.Scottish people chose Alex Salmond as the best person, that is their
:05:13. > :05:17.choice. But it would be the Scottish Parliament and government
:05:17. > :05:21.coming out of the Scottish Parliament to take it forward.
:05:21. > :05:26.are almost out of time, but do you think there will be the enthusiasm
:05:26. > :05:31.and commitment from people out there to engage with this for those
:05:31. > :05:37.not in political parties, people who don't have those interests, is
:05:37. > :05:41.there going to be the momentum? think people will be depressed and
:05:41. > :05:46.worried if they think they will have a legally binding referendum
:05:46. > :05:50.on independence only. Make your minds up and if you don't know you
:05:50. > :05:54.are done with. I think people will be depressed and anxious if that is
:05:54. > :06:00.the only option. Avoiding that outcome will motivate people to
:06:00. > :06:06.become very engaged again. Thank you very much indeed, I have a
:06:06. > :06:13.feeling we will be doing much more of this in the months ahead. Now
:06:13. > :06:17.for the lunchtime news. Good afternoon, Michael Moore says he is
:06:17. > :06:20.ready to negotiate with the First Minister over the timing of the
:06:20. > :06:25.independence referendum. He says it should be down to the Scottish
:06:25. > :06:30.people to decide the future of the country. It is important that we
:06:30. > :06:34.get on and decide what we do here in Scotland. Creating a referendum
:06:34. > :06:41.on the biggest decision we will take in our lives. In this country.
:06:41. > :06:45.We must make sure it is legal, fair and decisive. At the end of the
:06:45. > :06:49.process we will know exactly where it leads us. As part of the most
:06:49. > :06:53.successful partnership of an Nations in history of going our own
:06:53. > :06:59.way. A leading Scottish Conservative fundraiser has said he
:06:59. > :07:03.is stepping down from his post. Sir Jack Harvey has raised around �60
:07:03. > :07:07.million, the Conservatives have paid tribute to the 65 year-old
:07:07. > :07:13.contribution and said a new fund- raising team is being put in place.
:07:13. > :07:19.The SNP says that his retirement is a blow for the Conservative
:07:19. > :07:24.leadership. A flat was attended to by police last night. Officers
:07:24. > :07:28.spend hours at the block of flats as they negotiated with a man there,
:07:28. > :07:33.the 25 year-old is expected to appear in court tomorrow. Now let
:07:33. > :07:37.us look at the weather prospects. us look at the weather prospects.
:07:37. > :07:40.Good afternoon, the bloke behind me says it all. We will see some
:07:40. > :07:45.thicker cloud towards the Outer Hebrides and extending to the
:07:45. > :07:54.Shetlands. Some Shun signed two. Cold temperatures, no higher than
:07:54. > :08:02.four Celsius, struggling to get to That is all for now, the next
:08:02. > :08:12.bulletin is at 6:50pm this evening. Now, a reminder of the top news
:08:12. > :08:19.
:08:19. > :08:27.Well, I think we can all safely say the constitutional wranglings will
:08:27. > :08:32.say centre-stage in the weeks ahead. And, I am joined now by the
:08:32. > :08:35.broadcaster and Scottish political editor of the Daily Telegraph, in
:08:35. > :08:42.the Edinburgh studio. Good afternoon to you both, going for
:08:42. > :08:47.the cream of the crop in our inaugural programme. Quite right.
:08:47. > :08:51.Lesley, let us start with what you think of the week which has gone.
:08:51. > :08:55.Have any politicians covered themselves in glory. Possibly not.
:08:55. > :08:59.A very polarising week but perhaps that was inevitable. Now people are
:08:59. > :09:04.beginning to take stock. Interesting what he heard from
:09:04. > :09:10.Michael Moore, it sounds like the date is now not the big one, and we
:09:10. > :09:14.are now moving on to the second question issue. Also, whether
:09:14. > :09:20.politicians are capable of being trusted. On the other hand, is it
:09:20. > :09:25.up to the public, do we have to do it somehow? Questions will be
:09:25. > :09:29.raised as to who is the legitimate one, in a legitimate position to
:09:29. > :09:33.write questions on which the Scottish must vote. It strikes me
:09:33. > :09:38.that Labour are missing from this. This is their policy and it is time
:09:38. > :09:44.they stood up because again in Westminster will devo-max, if voted
:09:44. > :09:49.for, ever get a lead its love potion. Look at the request of the
:09:49. > :09:56.Scottish government had after they were elected in May. Has it been
:09:56. > :10:01.devolved back to Scotland, no. These were not big ones, and they
:10:01. > :10:06.have not move. We could be in the mire for decades if we don't have a
:10:06. > :10:10.party that is absolutely wedded to something short of independence but
:10:10. > :10:15.more than the Scotland Bill. That must be Labour, because they are
:10:15. > :10:20.not in coalition with the Tories. Allen, do you think this devo-max
:10:20. > :10:25.question is going to go away or not? Is that something which can be
:10:25. > :10:30.negotiated? If not, what does it mean in practice? I am not sure you
:10:30. > :10:34.are right about the timing. I don't think he has conceded anything. I
:10:34. > :10:39.don't think there is any question that the deal breaker is the number
:10:39. > :10:46.of questions. It will be one question as far as Westminster is
:10:46. > :10:48.concerned and as far as I think the ultimate outcome is concerned. The
:10:48. > :10:54.SNP conference from last October, SNP conference from last October,
:10:54. > :10:57.SNP conference from last October, there was nothing like it. Lots of
:10:57. > :11:02.nationalists think they can win on one question. They will want to go
:11:02. > :11:03.for one question. Let's have a debate on devo-max but let's sort
:11:03. > :11:08.debate on devo-max but let's sort debate on devo-max but let's sort
:11:08. > :11:11.out the big one first. If Joyce McMillan is saying we must have the
:11:11. > :11:17.devo-max question because they will not accept a defeat on the big
:11:17. > :11:22.question, then we are playing a different ball game. To you have
:11:22. > :11:26.concerns when we say voices must be heard in Scotland? We have spoken
:11:26. > :11:31.about a bigger game, this intense political question in a different
:11:31. > :11:36.sort of way. Have you got any concern about why this column's not
:11:36. > :11:37.choosing to engage this time around? I hear people talking about
:11:37. > :11:40.around? I hear people talking about around? I hear people talking about
:11:40. > :11:45.is all the time. The groundswell has started already. I don't hear
:11:45. > :11:49.people really using phrases like devo-max. Should we raise our own
:11:49. > :11:57.taxes in Scotland. Do we believe we are capable of running ourselves on
:11:57. > :12:02.our own income base and well. That is what lies behind devo-max.
:12:02. > :12:06.who defines that? I think there is an issue. We can all have stabs at
:12:06. > :12:10.the definition. Reforms: there is a good one, but that is what
:12:10. > :12:14.political parties are for. They should ask that question to
:12:14. > :12:21.themselves. If they don't step up to the mark and do this work, why
:12:21. > :12:24.do we need them? If we look at the power-play behind this, we keep
:12:24. > :12:28.hearing George Osborne's name. Everybody saying he is the
:12:28. > :12:35.mastermind behind it. Do you have an inside track, what is going on
:12:35. > :12:41.here? I don't have an inside track with Conservatives. With all of the
:12:41. > :12:46.political parties! With some more than others, but that is for you to
:12:46. > :12:50.decide! Michael Moore drew up the consultation paper, he drew it up
:12:50. > :12:54.and will discuss it with an exam and if he wants to talk to him.
:12:54. > :12:57.Last week he was saying that Michael Moore had a better attitude
:12:57. > :13:01.then a George Osbourne and David Cameron, but now he says it does
:13:01. > :13:06.not want to talk to Michael Moore just David Cameron. But, Alex
:13:06. > :13:13.Salmond has been shifting on his ground all week. He will not tell
:13:13. > :13:20.you about it, he has the Scottish Parliament issue. He did not tell
:13:20. > :13:24.the Scottish Parliament, he told Sky, and the BBC and s TV. We
:13:24. > :13:30.should not read too much into this, he cannot tell us because it does
:13:30. > :13:34.not know. People keep talking about clarity, but at what point do we
:13:34. > :13:38.get clarity? When I was asking about what the politicians were
:13:38. > :13:41.doing and whether they were doing us a disservice. We were so caught
:13:41. > :13:47.up in the mechanics we were not discussing wider issues. At what
:13:47. > :13:52.point do we get clarity. What should be conceded at this stage?
:13:52. > :13:56.If we are going for 2014, and we are, we should pace ourselves.
:13:56. > :14:01.Looking to get the consultation document on Burns Night, nicely
:14:01. > :14:04.timed, then we will have a better idea on where we are going. There
:14:04. > :14:13.are big consequences for the rest of Britain. They are beginning to
:14:13. > :14:16.think about it. How does the set-up work? How would you want to rejig
:14:16. > :14:22.the United Kingdom if you were doing it now? Would you have a
:14:22. > :14:28.House of Lords? There are some Poles out today which say the
:14:28. > :14:32.majority of English would be quite happy, what do you think? To me,
:14:32. > :14:37.that looks like repressed demand for an English parliament. You can
:14:37. > :14:40.look so many ways that what are the beginning of stirrings in people
:14:40. > :14:43.across the United Kingdom, but I don't think they are necessarily
:14:43. > :14:49.just saying cheerio, they are saying they would like their own
:14:49. > :14:54.parliament. We have only got a few seconds left, Sir Jack Harvey is
:14:54. > :14:59.backing out of Tory fund-raising, is that very significant? Totally
:14:59. > :15:07.irrelevant. He is a good guy, but it is irrelevant to the future of
:15:07. > :15:12.Scotland. We are out of time. Let me ask though, given the opinions
:15:12. > :15:15.coming from the south, the impact it would have, what would be an
:15:15. > :15:23.appropriate role for voters in England and Wales and Northern
:15:23. > :15:28.Ireland? It is entirely a matter for the people of Scotland,
:15:28. > :15:31.commissars of Scotland. Let us get some clarity, Alex Salmond was
:15:31. > :15:39.talking about an advisory referendum, that would mean a
:15:39. > :15:45.second referendum, you cannot have one on the detail am one without.
:15:45. > :15:48.But this is rubbish, you are employed to find these difficulties,
:15:48. > :15:58.and these for negative points, in the bigger scheme of things we have
:15:58. > :15:58.