:00:39. > :00:43.Good afternoon and welcome to The Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:46.What's 130 billion euros between friends? After weeks of uncertainty,
:00:46. > :00:51.violence and brinkmanship it looks like Greece is going to get its
:00:51. > :00:57.second multi-billion euro bailout. But will it rescue Greece from
:00:57. > :01:00.bankruptcy? We talk to one of its finance ministers.
:01:00. > :01:04.David Cameron's been wooing the Scots, suggesting more devolved
:01:04. > :01:07.powers if they remain part of the United Kingdom. But what does that
:01:08. > :01:14.really mean? Scottish Secretary Michael Moore joins us for the
:01:14. > :01:17.Sunday Interview. We'll be playing good cop. Bad cop
:01:18. > :01:26.with former head of the Met, Ian Blair, and former Deputy PM, John
:01:26. > :01:29.Prescott, who go head to head on police commissioners.
:01:29. > :01:31.And on Sunday Politics Scotland, we will be asking Alistair Darling
:01:31. > :01:34.what Labour's big idea for the referendum campaign is.
:01:35. > :01:44.And we will be looking at gender and politics Danish style, as we
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :26:51.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1506 seconds
:26:51. > :26:59.reflect on the fiction of Borgen There where eight pages in the
:26:59. > :27:09.Greater London Act. Boris Johnson did not need any of these pages. He
:27:09. > :27:11.
:27:11. > :27:18.simply said he did not have confidence and there was the end.
:27:18. > :27:26.have work with a few people who did not have confidence in me! I agree
:27:26. > :27:35.with you. About that in the West Midlands, because that is so big.
:27:35. > :27:41.So you think it might be all right in some parts of the country?
:27:41. > :27:47.say at the beginning of the programme, any small confined
:27:47. > :27:57.airier it is different. But when you have any area will spread out,
:27:57. > :28:03.
:28:03. > :28:12.such as Thames Valley. How does one person possibly represent that?
:28:12. > :28:19.do not underestimate the plan of people who can say that they can
:28:19. > :28:25.check on what the commissioner does. Yes, but that is the same control
:28:25. > :28:35.they have in London over the budget of the media and not once in a
:28:35. > :28:38.
:28:38. > :28:48.years has there been any challenge. How many millions of people are in
:28:48. > :28:49.
:28:49. > :28:57.London? In this case, taking Humberside, the police chief has to
:28:57. > :29:03.come to an agreement about the budget. It is about the
:29:03. > :29:13.personalities to a certain extent. But the voice of the people will
:29:13. > :29:17.
:29:17. > :29:22.have more influence in terms of the plan for the next five years.
:29:22. > :29:32.two is going to be interested in you're election as regards the
:29:32. > :29:33.
:29:33. > :29:41.likes of counter terrorism. Humberside is not a risky area?
:29:41. > :29:51.They are terrorists everywhere. That will come into it and you do
:29:51. > :29:59.have to have the national policy for it. Gentlemen, we have to leave
:29:59. > :30:09.it there. I will talk now to the former leader of helped halt city
:30:09. > :30:09.
:30:09. > :30:12.It is approaching 1230, you are watching the Sunday politics. Good
:30:12. > :30:15.afternoon and welcome to The Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:30:15. > :30:18.programme... The First Minister, the Prime
:30:18. > :30:21.Minister and the Scottish Secretary - they are all talking about the
:30:21. > :30:23.referendum, but what are they actually saying? As David Cameron
:30:23. > :30:27.hints at more powers under devolution, what will be spelled
:30:27. > :30:30.out and when? We will be asking former Chancellor
:30:30. > :30:33.Alistair Darling if Labour has a plan and, if they do, what exactly
:30:33. > :30:37.is it? A pilot project delivers an
:30:37. > :30:41.unprecendented fall in knife crime. In this highly sensitive area, what
:30:41. > :30:46.is working and where is the room for improvement? The Justice
:30:46. > :30:48.Secretary will be here. Is this the mathematical equation
:30:48. > :30:57.that can predict probability in whether Scotland becomes
:30:57. > :31:01.independent or not? Are all things equal in gender and
:31:01. > :31:05.politics? We have come over all Borgen, to find out if women MSPS
:31:05. > :31:09.at Holyrood find the fictional take true to life?
:31:09. > :31:17.Hello and welcome to the programme. Hold on tight to the tectonic
:31:17. > :31:19.plates, as the most rigid political positions seem to be moving.
:31:19. > :31:22.After we have settled the independence question, if the
:31:22. > :31:28.answer to that question is that Scotland wants to stay in the
:31:28. > :31:31.United Kingdom. And I hope that is the, of course then we can have a
:31:31. > :31:34.further conversation about how much, how best to arrange the devolved
:31:34. > :31:44.settlement, so that it works for everybody.
:31:44. > :31:44.
:31:44. > :31:50.And just earlier, the Scottish Secretary said the following.
:31:50. > :31:55.not about has setting out the agenda. But the Scottish National
:31:55. > :32:05.Party have failed to set out how an independent Scotland would look
:32:05. > :32:06.
:32:06. > :32:09.like. They have failed to address the likes of currency and defence.
:32:09. > :32:18.Joining us now from our Edinburgh studio is former Labour Chancellor
:32:18. > :32:22.and the MP for Edinburgh South West, Alistair Darling. In Scotland and
:32:22. > :32:32.see no to independence, what additional powers could come to
:32:32. > :32:33.
:32:33. > :32:37.Holyrood? I think the fundamental one is that any parliament which
:32:37. > :32:43.should be able to spend the money, should be able to also raise more
:32:43. > :32:47.money. I think that is essential in my view. The most important
:32:47. > :32:53.question, which we really Doody need to decide sooner rather than
:32:53. > :33:00.later, his army staying in the United Kingdom or leaving? Once you
:33:00. > :33:03.answer that question, you can then define what the consequences are.
:33:03. > :33:13.Specifically, what sort of tax- raising powers are you talking
:33:13. > :33:14.
:33:14. > :33:18.about? A if you look at the amount of money Scotland Spence, what you
:33:18. > :33:28.want is to move to a situation where the skull and decides to
:33:28. > :33:28.
:33:29. > :33:38.spend money on whatever, it has to decide how much taxes would go up.
:33:38. > :33:48.I think that is absolute fund just to clarify that, are you talking
:33:48. > :33:49.
:33:49. > :33:53.about specific late income tax a range of taxes? The Scottish
:33:53. > :33:59.government has had the ability to vary the amount of tax since it was
:33:59. > :34:03.set up. Of course, this is more difficult when you get into the
:34:03. > :34:07.likes of corporate tax. I think this is essential for the future,
:34:07. > :34:15.but the big question we have to answer his army staying in the
:34:15. > :34:20.United Kingdom are not? Whatever the answer to that is, although
:34:20. > :34:26.there are lots of other questions that still have to be answered,
:34:26. > :34:35.that is the main one. We need to have this debate and I do not see
:34:35. > :34:39.why we have to wait another two years until we have it. If you are
:34:39. > :34:42.seeking clarity in the debate, surely it is only fair that of
:34:42. > :34:49.water has called in to this debate knowing exactly what they're
:34:49. > :34:59.letting themselves in for? They need to know about income tax pause
:34:59. > :34:59.
:34:59. > :35:03.and the like. Equally, if we have income tax powers, there is no
:35:03. > :35:13.point having that in less you have boring powers, which can offset any
:35:13. > :35:20.
:35:20. > :35:26.I do not think what we have at the moment is satisfactory. It was fine
:35:26. > :35:32.in 1990, but things have moved on. But the first question you have to
:35:32. > :35:39.us before be called for any change is simply, are we staying in the
:35:39. > :35:44.United Kingdom or are we leaving? Once that question is the answer,
:35:44. > :35:48.we can go forward and look at other aspects. But we simply do not see
:35:48. > :35:55.why we have to wait until 2014 until the question is the answer?
:35:55. > :35:59.We could easily have this referendum next year. Once that has
:35:59. > :36:09.been done, then we can look of what other powers should be be be
:36:09. > :36:11.
:36:11. > :36:16.devolved from Westminster. The traditional Tory position appears
:36:16. > :36:24.to have changed, there been more willingness to may be devolved some
:36:24. > :36:29.pause. It would seem you are proposing a one-sided debate. We do
:36:29. > :36:36.we have to wait for the alternative. It could be viewed as being the
:36:36. > :36:41.most important vote in 300 years in Scotland. Here are saying, trust us.
:36:41. > :36:45.You are requiring a great leap of faith. Why not spell out clearly
:36:45. > :36:51.what the alternatives are so that people can make an informed
:36:51. > :36:59.judgment about whether we stay within the United Kingdom were not?
:36:59. > :37:04.The simple question to be asked his army stain or are we going? Is the
:37:04. > :37:09.fact that you are not raising the possibility of further powers is
:37:10. > :37:16.that because Labour are out of the game as regards this. Why do you
:37:16. > :37:26.not seize the initiative and put forward the cohesive and cogent
:37:26. > :37:28.
:37:28. > :37:31.case? In the pipeline, there are changes been made. What I do think,
:37:31. > :37:38.the way you address the question about whether we would stay in the
:37:38. > :37:45.United Kingdom were not, has to be a positive one - what is best for
:37:45. > :37:51.Scotland. My answer is that Scotland will derive huge benefits
:37:51. > :37:54.from the strength of the United Kingdom, just as the United Kingdom
:37:54. > :38:02.crows great strength from being in the European Union. You are part of
:38:02. > :38:05.the much bigger community. But the first question you ask has to be
:38:05. > :38:11.are you staying in the United Kingdom and then leaving? We could
:38:11. > :38:14.easily have that question a lot sooner than the First Minister
:38:14. > :38:18.wants. We need to answer my question now and then once you
:38:18. > :38:22.decide that, then if you have decided to stay, you look for more
:38:22. > :38:27.powers to be devolved to Scotland and if you are leaving, you are
:38:27. > :38:35.going to have to answer all sorts of other questions. At the moment,
:38:35. > :38:38.there are very few good answers to these. His skull and says no to
:38:38. > :38:43.independence, what political leverage do you think Scotland
:38:43. > :38:51.would have been going to Westminster and asking for more
:38:51. > :38:56.powers after a no vote in Scotland? Surely would have no leverage.
:38:56. > :39:06.way that was unimaginable a year ago, I think the consensus among
:39:06. > :39:07.
:39:07. > :39:17.all political parties that the settlement reached in 1998 is not
:39:17. > :39:18.
:39:18. > :39:25.what we want at the moment. We need to move on from that. The DB will
:39:25. > :39:30.eventually be about the extension of powers and other things, but
:39:30. > :39:35.simply answer the first question, army's been or are we going. Once
:39:35. > :39:40.the question is answered, the it does need to be immediate debate
:39:40. > :39:47.about what further powers the Scottish Parliament needs. But what
:39:47. > :39:51.all this is going on, the people in Scotland or facing losing jobs and
:39:51. > :39:56.worried about financial and says, it is the economy that actually
:39:56. > :40:02.matters. Let us get this constitutional question decided
:40:02. > :40:07.once and for all. Would it be for the people and let them decide.
:40:07. > :40:14.Then, the politicians can work out what they need to do it to go
:40:14. > :40:23.forward. So what message will the new leader of Scottish Labour have
:40:23. > :40:29.to give to their party conference? It has to be what difference the
:40:29. > :40:38.Labour administration will making local authorities and and Scottish
:40:38. > :40:45.Parliament. It is available pub powerful message to put out, that
:40:45. > :40:50.Labour can make a difference. Yes, we have moved and we needed to move.
:40:50. > :40:55.But fundamentally, we are much stronger and we are a much better
:40:55. > :41:00.nation within the United Kingdom that we would be apart from it. It
:41:00. > :41:03.is a powerful message and Ian sure she will make it.
:41:03. > :41:12.Listening to that in our other Edinburgh studio is the Justice
:41:12. > :41:19.Secretary, Kenny MacAskill. Is this not a problem for you if the
:41:19. > :41:26.Unionists can put up a commune in no vote. If they can make that a
:41:26. > :41:34.coherent message that could be a big problem? Sadly, it is what we
:41:34. > :41:39.have come to expect. We did not buy a pig in the port before and I do
:41:39. > :41:43.not think Scotland are going to accept advice from Labour
:41:43. > :41:53.politicians are very conservative Prime Minister. The need to spell
:41:53. > :41:53.
:41:53. > :41:57.out what powers they propose to give to Scotland. Legislation going
:41:57. > :42:01.through Parliament at the moment in Westminster was looking to take
:42:01. > :42:04.power away from Scotland. At a time when we are facing huge cuts from
:42:04. > :42:14.the Conservatives and London and are most vulnerable people face
:42:14. > :42:17.
:42:17. > :42:21.challenges and cuts to benefits, we are looking for better. The union
:42:21. > :42:27.has proposition requires a great leap of faith, but you could
:42:27. > :42:32.equally argue that your proposition of saying yes to independence, the
:42:32. > :42:39.most important deal for 300 years, when we come back, you will just
:42:39. > :42:42.have to live with it. The will, we are looking to enter into
:42:42. > :42:50.consultation with them. We have to put forward the questions of what
:42:50. > :42:55.we will do as regards currency, as regards defence. Sorry up to
:42:55. > :42:58.interrupt. This is not what you can do, but what you will hope to
:42:58. > :43:05.achieve through negotiation, which is the fundamentally different
:43:05. > :43:09.question. No, I think the people of Scotland have shown an polls have
:43:09. > :43:16.supported that, that what the want to be sure is that independence
:43:16. > :43:20.will deliver for them. They want to make sure that it all face the
:43:20. > :43:24.economic challenges of the future. We have to spell it out to the
:43:24. > :43:30.people of Scotland. It will take time and that is why it is
:43:30. > :43:35.important we have the referendum by the autumn 2014. That is the first
:43:35. > :43:45.reasonable period we can expect to engage with people and go through
:43:45. > :43:47.
:43:47. > :43:51.the requisite procedure that is now What I am suggesting is that you,
:43:51. > :43:59.in all good faith can say it when you go to the electorate that this
:43:59. > :44:03.is what you will deliver. The point I am asking you to engage with is
:44:03. > :44:07.that you will not get everything you want so the things you predict
:44:07. > :44:11.you will deliver may have to be changed. After that you will come
:44:11. > :44:16.back and whatever do you have done the rest of us will have to live
:44:16. > :44:21.with, so it requires a leap of faith. It is exactly the same as
:44:21. > :44:25.happens after every election. You lay out a manifesto and we had
:44:25. > :44:31.shown the people of Scotland, which is why the were re-elected with a
:44:31. > :44:37.majority government, because we deliver our manifesto commitments.
:44:37. > :44:42.Of course there may be some matters that will have to be entered into
:44:42. > :44:44.negotiations with Westminster but we enter into that in a spirit of
:44:44. > :44:48.willingness and Corporation and it is accepted that that is how
:44:48. > :44:58.Westminster would engage. It is in the interests of everyone to make
:44:58. > :44:59.
:44:59. > :45:02.sure we had a seen as a matter as possible. Just to clarify your last
:45:02. > :45:05.point. You are saying there are matters during the negotiation
:45:05. > :45:10.process that you would take back to the people of Scotland and a
:45:10. > :45:15.subsequent referendum? We want a referendum and we are asking the
:45:15. > :45:18.people of Scotland at to give us the mandate to negate independence.
:45:18. > :45:21.When you enter any negotiation, whether to the Government in the
:45:21. > :45:25.Scottish Parliament with the Westminster Parliament on a guess
:45:25. > :45:29.it in terms of independence, there are matters that will have to be
:45:29. > :45:33.subject to negotiation. We go into this with the spirit of willingness
:45:33. > :45:40.and we think the UK would do likewise. This is a matter that has
:45:40. > :45:45.been seen elsewhere. Matters are dealt with seamlessly. OK, you were
:45:45. > :45:49.here to talk about something else so if you just bear with us, we are
:45:49. > :45:54.moving on to the conviction of a man last week for stabbing a
:45:54. > :46:01.teenager in Midlothian. It was a stark reminder of the human tragedy
:46:01. > :46:04.of knife crime. But the latest Scottish Government figures show
:46:04. > :46:07.that a pilot scheme in one of the worst effected areas has reduced
:46:07. > :46:10.knife carrying by 33% since 2006. Christine Macleod takes a look at
:46:10. > :46:13.what's contributed to this reduction, and asks what else
:46:13. > :46:14.should be done to challenge the blade culture in some of our
:46:14. > :46:18.communities. Knife crime is a problem that
:46:18. > :46:23.continues to blight Scottish communities. That is why the
:46:23. > :46:27.Scottish government has extended its knife crime campaign to North
:46:27. > :46:31.Lanarkshire. This scheme offers activities, education and advice
:46:31. > :46:37.and support to youth. It is designed to keep them off the
:46:37. > :46:41.streets and away from night. It is called a diversionary approach.
:46:41. > :46:44.lot of them just come in here so they get to know each other and it
:46:44. > :46:49.means they will not go out and fight or whatever. Pit stops
:46:49. > :46:53.violence I think. When they come in here they are all friends.
:46:53. > :46:57.Scottish government has projects like these have contributed to
:46:57. > :47:00.reducing knife crime. They say police stop-and-search and longer
:47:00. > :47:05.sentences have also helped. Is the Government doing enough to tackle
:47:06. > :47:10.knife crime? The main opposition at Holyrood say they are not. They are
:47:10. > :47:13.calling for mandatory minimum sentences. They need to be a clear
:47:13. > :47:18.message sent to people, not just that they will be hammered by the
:47:18. > :47:21.courts and by the system if they use a knife but if they carry a
:47:21. > :47:24.knife in circumstances where they might claim to be acting in self-
:47:24. > :47:27.defence but where the consequences going to be that somebody get
:47:27. > :47:33.killed or injured. They need to understand that that is not
:47:33. > :47:37.acceptable and that will be hammered to pull stop we believe it
:47:37. > :47:40.creates an expectation that any body caught carrying a knife will
:47:40. > :47:45.go to jail. Within that would be a very significant deterrent to
:47:45. > :47:50.people to do that. Calls are also being made to wait sentencing
:47:50. > :47:54.council to ensure that those guilty of similar knife crime us get
:47:54. > :47:58.punished so malaria. At present some get off more lightly than
:47:58. > :48:01.others. We accept the idea of a sentencing council in Scotland.
:48:01. > :48:05.Four justice to be seen to be working the public need to be
:48:05. > :48:09.reassured that justices open, transparent and the sentence is
:48:09. > :48:13.visible to them and they understand it and that offenders are
:48:13. > :48:16.accountable for their actions. Guidelines should be produced that
:48:16. > :48:22.allows offenders to understand and be accountable for their actions
:48:22. > :48:27.and justice will be done and be seen to be done. Some impact --
:48:27. > :48:31.some experts warn that the impact of diversionary schemes is limited.
:48:31. > :48:38.These do not influence all life criminals. What is really needed is
:48:38. > :48:43.more information on what motivates those who continue to commit crimes.
:48:43. > :48:47.We need to create better information and data sources on
:48:47. > :48:55.knife crime. We need to know more about who is carrying a knife and
:48:55. > :49:00.who is using a knife and the situations in which knife carrying
:49:00. > :49:08.happens. At the moment our data does not enable us to do that. As a
:49:08. > :49:11.consequence we cannot tailor strategies to individuals and
:49:11. > :49:15.communities. The fall in knife crime suggests that efforts to
:49:15. > :49:21.tackle it are going in the right direction. Is the current approach
:49:21. > :49:25.sophisticated enough to ensure that it keeps heading that way?
:49:25. > :49:28.Back now to the Justice Secretary. Do you think we need a more
:49:29. > :49:33.sophisticated approach? We are trying to get more accurate data
:49:33. > :49:37.and that is why the violence reduction Unit and others are
:49:37. > :49:42.working to make sure we can roll it out and find that the knife
:49:42. > :49:45.offences that take place are all reported. That work is ongoing in
:49:45. > :49:51.terms of co-operation between criminal justice and health boards
:49:51. > :49:55.to make sure we have adequate data to work upon. We have far too many
:49:55. > :49:58.tragedies that affect not just individual families but entire
:49:58. > :50:02.communities. Things are heading in the right direction but there is a
:50:02. > :50:06.long way to travel to change the culture that we have in Scotland,
:50:06. > :50:11.not simply of knife crime in many areas but indeed of the alcohol
:50:11. > :50:17.abuse that goes with it which has, as my predecessor indicated,
:50:17. > :50:22.created a lethal cocktail. Do you accept that mandatory sentences
:50:22. > :50:25.will act as a deterrent? Actually the average sentence in Scotland is
:50:26. > :50:30.nine months for possession of a knife as so why you would want to
:50:30. > :50:33.give them only six months seems strange. We are in a situation
:50:33. > :50:37.where you are 50% more likely to get a conviction in Scotland and
:50:37. > :50:42.south of the border and the sentence will be 75% longer. We
:50:42. > :50:48.have a tough regime in Scotland. You can go to jail for up to four
:50:48. > :50:52.years just for possessing a weapon. That possession of a knife is
:50:52. > :50:55.therefore the court to use. We have record police numbers. We have
:50:55. > :51:00.record numbers of stop-and-search. What they show is that less people
:51:00. > :51:04.are carrying, thankfully, but still far too many and those who do, more
:51:04. > :51:07.are getting caught and are going to prison for longer so it is working.
:51:07. > :51:12.But we are still blighted by tragedies that have had
:51:12. > :51:16.catastrophic effects. What about the role of a sentencing council?
:51:16. > :51:20.Would it be your intention or expectation that a sentencing
:51:20. > :51:25.council would allow for a predictability of sentences? What
:51:25. > :51:29.would be their role and why have you not move more quickly on it?
:51:29. > :51:33.was only passed in the last Parliament and we are entering into
:51:33. > :51:38.discussion with the judiciary about how we implemented. It would not be
:51:38. > :51:42.specific. It has always been agreed that they could deal with the
:51:42. > :51:45.generalities of matters but it is up to the individual Sheriff Court
:51:45. > :51:51.judge to deal with the particular individual at the time they imposed
:51:51. > :51:55.the sentence. We now have vastly increased sentences under the SNP
:51:55. > :52:01.government but we still retain the right for the individuals Seraph to
:52:01. > :52:08.retain the right to decide what that sentence could be. You can get
:52:08. > :52:11.four years for just possession of a knife. I would support any judge
:52:11. > :52:15.who made that sentence because I have no doubt that it will prevent
:52:15. > :52:20.another tragedy from occurring. We have tough laws but as your package
:52:20. > :52:24.shows we have to change the culture, it is about a bear Cherie
:52:24. > :52:29.activities and tackling a variety of cultural aspects in Scotland. We
:52:29. > :52:36.are making progress. We have the lowest possession of offensive
:52:36. > :52:39.weapons statistics for a decade. We still have a long way to go. Given
:52:39. > :52:43.the pilot projects you have been running, I know you have extended
:52:43. > :52:48.the man they are expensive, but do you think this is money that could
:52:48. > :52:51.be picked up from the prevented a budget? I think so. That is why my
:52:51. > :52:55.work across portfolios in the Scottish government. It is about
:52:55. > :53:01.education, health, all of us pulling together to make Scotland
:53:01. > :53:06.safer. It is about a flaws but also without providing diversionary
:53:06. > :53:08.matters. Thank you very much. Human trafficking, the modern
:53:08. > :53:11.equivalent of the slave trade, is increasing across Europe according
:53:11. > :53:14.to the latest research. An inquiry into the situation here in Scotland
:53:14. > :53:18.led by the QC Helena Kennedy found victims throughout the country. Men
:53:18. > :53:21.women and children, not just in the sex industry, but forced labour in
:53:21. > :53:25.hotels, in restaurants, farms and domestic homes. Baroness Kennedy
:53:25. > :53:33.wants Scotland to break new ground with a zero tolerance approach. MPs
:53:33. > :53:38.at Westminster discuss her findings next week. Here's Hayley Jarvis.
:53:38. > :53:42.The true extent of human trafficking in Scotland is not
:53:42. > :53:45.known. Latest figures show 74 people, including 19 children, are
:53:45. > :53:50.suspected of being trafficked in the last three years but it could
:53:50. > :53:56.be just the tip of an iceberg. The majority come from Nigeria, China
:53:56. > :54:03.and Brazil. Most arrive by England because it appears more people are
:54:03. > :54:07.being trafficked directly into this country. There has been only one
:54:07. > :54:11.prosecution in Scotland for trafficking, compared to more than
:54:11. > :54:15.150 in England and Wales. An inquiry into the equality and human
:54:15. > :54:19.rights commission has called for new legislation in Scotland to
:54:20. > :54:24.allow more convictions. It is a human rights abuse and criminal law
:54:24. > :54:28.should come into play. The primary agency to deal with it should be
:54:28. > :54:34.the police. It should not be the immigration services. Human
:54:34. > :54:40.trafficking is often complicated by this confusion that it somehow is
:54:40. > :54:46.an meshed in emigration. While there are often implications of
:54:46. > :54:49.having come illegally into the country, it is really about crime.
:54:49. > :54:52.The Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency admit to gaps in their
:54:52. > :55:01.intelligence when it comes to trafficking. It is difficult to get
:55:01. > :55:05.a handle on the problem. One of the things that we struggle to do is to
:55:05. > :55:09.find the scale of the problem. Partly that is because getting
:55:09. > :55:13.intelligence, information and knowledge of how much human
:55:13. > :55:17.trafficking exists in Scotland can be quite problematic. Sometimes
:55:17. > :55:22.that is because some of the victims involved do not particularly want
:55:22. > :55:26.to identify themselves as victims because they may have some kind of
:55:27. > :55:29.immigration status issue attached to them. The Scottish government
:55:29. > :55:34.says it is considering the findings but it is encouraging all agencies
:55:34. > :55:40.to work together to tackle the problem. MPs are due to discuss the
:55:40. > :55:44.report at Westminster. Scotland has had a look at it and come up with a
:55:44. > :55:48.proposal for new legislation. We should not rely on old laws. We
:55:48. > :55:53.should bring together all the experience we have had in dealing
:55:53. > :56:01.with human trafficking. It is -- if it is good for Scotland it will be
:56:01. > :56:05.good for all of the UK. This play it draws on the experiences of a
:56:05. > :56:09.young woman traffic to Scotland but in reality the victims are often
:56:09. > :56:13.reluctant to tell their stories. The report heard from 10 women
:56:13. > :56:19.traffic for sexual expectation and gave accounts of threats, beatings
:56:19. > :56:22.and been tricked by members of their own families. Scotland could
:56:22. > :56:26.lead the way in a preventing human trafficking and preventing more
:56:27. > :56:30.women suffering the same fate. Here with me is the head of the
:56:30. > :56:35.Human Trafficking Foundation, Ann Hamilton.
:56:35. > :56:37.What do you think the members of public are not getting? There is a
:56:37. > :56:43.misunderstanding about what trafficking is. There is a view
:56:43. > :56:48.which is about foreign women being kidnapped and dragged across
:56:48. > :56:53.borders and then being exploited, that they have no passports, no
:56:53. > :56:58.money and they are beaten up etc. Actually it is much more subtle
:56:58. > :57:02.than that. People are duped. They are brought here not just from
:57:02. > :57:07.across other countries but from within the country. They get moved
:57:07. > :57:13.around and exploited. There is a fundamental misunderstanding about
:57:13. > :57:23.what trafficking is. It has three elements, the control, the
:57:23. > :57:26.recruitment, the transporting. Then the means can be deception or debt
:57:26. > :57:30.all force and then we have the exploitation which can be sexual
:57:30. > :57:40.exploitation but it can also be labour exploitation. We really have
:57:40. > :57:43.
:57:43. > :57:48.not fully understood that. There had a it always in where do people
:57:48. > :57:51.who have been exploited end up? They can be exploited within a
:57:51. > :57:58.family and the exploited as a domestic worker. It does not have
:57:58. > :58:02.to be organised crime they get involved in it. It could be a very
:58:02. > :58:08.small organisation -- operation. It is one of the myths that it is just
:58:08. > :58:11.about huge organised crime operations. It can be much, much
:58:11. > :58:15.smaller than that. A to be quite clear, we are not talking about
:58:15. > :58:19.people not being paid the going rate for the work they are doing,
:58:19. > :58:29.this is a broader front thing. is very different. It is not about
:58:29. > :58:33.not being paid the minimum wage. It is about control, deception, debt,
:58:33. > :58:38.yes. Baroness Kennedy said that when we put together and multi-
:58:39. > :58:45.statutory response to this, she was heading towards a zero tolerance
:58:45. > :58:49.situation in Scotland. She wants to shift the emphasis from immigration
:58:49. > :58:53.to crime. That is absolutely right. It is not an immigration issue.
:58:53. > :58:59.There are immigration issues involved in the crime but that is
:58:59. > :59:03.not the primary element. Does it stop people coming forward? It does.
:59:03. > :59:07.People are frightened. They are very stigmatised. They are ashamed
:59:07. > :59:12.of what they have been involved in. They feel complicit in what they
:59:12. > :59:18.have been involved in. It is very difficult to come forward for
:59:18. > :59:22.assistance. That is what makes it infuriating for police and others,
:59:22. > :59:25.they feel that victims are not prepared to tell them their story
:59:25. > :59:31.but the reason for that is that they are quite often treated as
:59:31. > :59:38.criminals themselves. They are frightened and stigmatised.
:59:39. > :59:42.would seem to a lot of people watching that what could they do
:59:42. > :59:46.about it even if they could identify it. The problems are
:59:46. > :59:50.difficult to identify so what would you encourage people to do if they
:59:50. > :59:55.have any suspicions at all? major thing is for the Government
:59:55. > :59:59.to show leadership on this. They should start an Inter agency
:59:59. > :00:04.working at a Scottish level. We do not have that. We do not have
:00:04. > :00:08.organisations meeting at the moment to talk about the issues. In terms
:00:08. > :00:16.of individuals we have to look at the demand for sexual services. Why
:00:16. > :00:20.are men in Scotland still looking to buy sex? Is that part of a
:00:20. > :00:26.modern society? Is that something we wanted to have? Why are people
:00:26. > :00:31.still wanting cheap goods, cheap produce, cheap labour within the
:00:31. > :00:38.household? It is about the demand that creates the the whole problem.
:00:38. > :00:42.There is plenty of claim and counterclaim in the independence
:00:42. > :00:45.debate. But can science cut through the arguments and get us closer to
:00:45. > :00:48.the likely outcome? An international study has been
:00:48. > :00:49.looking for the parts of Europe most likely to become independent
:00:49. > :00:52.nations. The researchers from Spain, France
:00:52. > :00:56.and the United States used economic and genetic data to find which
:00:56. > :01:01.countries were most stable - and those most likely to break up. So
:01:01. > :01:10.where does Scotland stand? Our science correspondent Kenneth
:01:10. > :01:17.Macdonald can reveal all. This is what Europe looks like - a
:01:17. > :01:23.patchwork of nations. Some of these are fairly new, especially those
:01:23. > :01:31.which have broken away from others and got independence. But this is
:01:31. > :01:37.also what Europe looks like - at a mathematical model. It has
:01:37. > :01:46.identified which nations and the most and least stable. It is the
:01:46. > :01:52.you result of work in France, Madrid and the United States.
:01:52. > :01:59.we were trying to do is take this research one step further and try
:01:59. > :02:09.and build a model which allows us to quantify the incentives for
:02:09. > :02:10.
:02:10. > :02:15.regions to either seek independence or unite. Much of the original data
:02:15. > :02:21.was from the original Yugoslavia, where predictions were that the
:02:21. > :02:31.country would indeed break-up, which is what happened. We find
:02:31. > :02:39.that first the public want to leave it, such as Slovenia and Croatia
:02:39. > :02:43.and then we find Montenegro did not want to leave. But what did a model
:02:43. > :02:50.tell us about our likely future? It said the country's most likely to
:02:50. > :03:00.break away in Europe where the Basque country's and Scotland. Is
:03:00. > :03:01.
:03:01. > :03:06.it inevitable? There is a difference, Slovenia had a much
:03:06. > :03:16.richer economy than parts of Yugoslavia, whereas Scotland and
:03:16. > :03:17.
:03:17. > :03:23.England are much closer. When I say the Basque country are a top
:03:24. > :03:27.candidates, then it turns out that Scotland is not far behind. It
:03:27. > :03:36.means this column was a little bit richer run a little bit bigger, it
:03:36. > :03:44.may well ought to do that. 1 the number to suggest is something that
:03:44. > :03:54.sounds suspiciously like Deval next. It is maybe a situation whereby
:03:54. > :03:54.
:03:54. > :03:58.they get extra powers as opposed to going completely independent.
:03:58. > :04:06.Looking at countries most likely to mere words, the top of the last
:04:06. > :04:16.where Switzerland and Austria. If Britain were to merge with any
:04:16. > :04:16.
:04:16. > :04:22.other country, the country it is most likely to merge with would
:04:22. > :04:27.actually be France. There is a long love-the relationship for many
:04:27. > :04:32.centuries, but that is the country, if they were to merge, that they
:04:32. > :04:39.would be most likely to call with. It also said the merger between
:04:39. > :04:45.Britain and Germany was possible. There is of course across the it.
:04:45. > :04:55.These calculations do not attempt to predict the future. First column,
:04:55. > :04:55.
:04:55. > :04:57.there lies not in equations but in kvingleer politiker ee de danske
:04:57. > :05:07.drama Bowen ogde kvinglee politiker ee scotlands politik.
:05:07. > :05:26.
:05:26. > :05:31.Ok een er ficktion men ikke lang Bit as good is the programme about
:05:31. > :05:41.the power for women, who is also quite humane. I think that spoke to
:05:41. > :05:47.
:05:47. > :05:50.us. It did talk about some of the compromises you have to make. I
:05:50. > :05:55.think many women will recognise that you sometimes have to cut
:05:55. > :06:03.corners, similar because you have so many different jobs you have to
:06:03. > :06:10.do at the one time. If you go into politics, you have to have the
:06:10. > :06:15.thick skin. With the access to technology nowadays, people can
:06:15. > :06:25.make immediate comments about you. We have not broken through about
:06:25. > :06:25.
:06:25. > :06:33.the double standards the women face It really does capture politics and
:06:33. > :06:37.the row. It also captures aspects of coalition politics. You have to
:06:37. > :06:44.be assertive and confident. You are surrounded by lots of very strong
:06:44. > :06:49.people. Now that I am out of politics, I have discovered these
:06:49. > :06:59.things called weekends which everybody else had, which I can now
:06:59. > :07:09.
:07:09. > :07:13.husband felt less masculine when his wall changed. When he was
:07:13. > :07:17.running the household, he was desperate to get back to the status
:07:17. > :07:22.he used to have any a work environment. But for most parents,
:07:22. > :07:27.it should not be an either or. We should both be playing an important
:07:27. > :07:34.part in our children pause Mark upbringing. There are cultural
:07:34. > :07:41.shifts needed. Often, someone can do something on your behalf. The
:07:41. > :07:49.point is that you want to do these things yourself. You want to go to
:07:49. > :07:57.the school concert and want to go to that parents' night. The numbers
:07:57. > :08:05.and the parliament is that the parliament has made more efforts to
:08:05. > :08:15.make things more female-friendly compared to local councils. Local
:08:15. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :08:20.councils a lot of the evening meetings and things like that.
:08:20. > :08:24.Nicola Sturgeon and others have watched Borgen and it would be and
:08:24. > :08:28.they ought not to see how women across the world in politics cope
:08:28. > :08:32.with depression and strains of that and family life. There are times
:08:32. > :08:37.when you do not feel as confident as you Wanstead and you have to put
:08:37. > :08:40.forward the vineyard that shows outwardly you are coping well. But
:08:40. > :08:47.you still have the stresses and strains of having a young family at
:08:47. > :08:52.home. It is really important to have a supportive husband. I am
:08:52. > :09:01.really lucky that he is here and be able to take a bit of a career
:09:01. > :09:07.break to look after her son, Angus. But of course, once we get warm, he
:09:07. > :09:12.is wanted to chat, because he has been with Angus all day, whereas I
:09:12. > :09:22.am more keen to switch off. But I have to make sure right here for
:09:22. > :09:29.
:09:29. > :09:32.We have two guests in the studio - the SNP MSP for the South of
:09:32. > :09:34.Scotland, Joan McAlpine, and Dr Fiona Mackay, the Director of the
:09:34. > :09:44.Graduate School of Social & Political Science at Edinburgh
:09:44. > :09:46.
:09:46. > :09:56.University. His it tougher for Women in politics than men? I thing
:09:56. > :10:03.get depends. I think we can sometimes talk too much about this.
:10:03. > :10:09.We are not ever going to say women MSPs, who get a very big salary and
:10:09. > :10:18.can afford to pay for other things, compared to other ski female
:10:18. > :10:24.workers. I'm not is one Cabinet minister to meeting that he had
:10:24. > :10:27.topped his kids than one Thursday night and they did not see that he
:10:27. > :10:32.was going to see him for another four or five days because he was
:10:32. > :10:39.going to Europe for a conference. So it obviously affects brain just
:10:39. > :10:43.as much. But both jobs can be very demanding and in politics, you have
:10:43. > :10:48.an obligation to the people who elected you, so there is a feeling
:10:48. > :10:53.you cannot do enough for them. There are times when the family
:10:53. > :11:03.simply asked to step back. You are dealing with the people who elected
:11:03. > :11:04.
:11:04. > :11:10.you. You maybe also needing to liaise with party activists. But if
:11:11. > :11:16.we look at the actual structures, is that the case that the structure
:11:16. > :11:25.response to getting the best women in place or two women come forward
:11:25. > :11:30.and it is the woman who can survive the structure that five? I think it
:11:30. > :11:38.is the combination of the two. There was a big change to try and
:11:38. > :11:45.alter the structure of the Scottish Parliament. As time goes by, if you
:11:45. > :11:49.keep to the forefront the value of the life-work balance. I think what
:11:49. > :11:54.made the television series so arresting is that it showed the
:11:54. > :12:02.kind of compromises politicians have to make, both politically and
:12:02. > :12:08.personally. It also shows that women, the costs are often greater
:12:08. > :12:11.than they are for men, in general. In a we, the old-fashioned
:12:12. > :12:17.relationship where the women was a warm looking after the children
:12:17. > :12:21.will the husband was out walking. There are women who still enjoy the
:12:21. > :12:28.role and that is the totally valid choice. You do not get the same
:12:28. > :12:33.amount of tensions between a traditional relationship. Whereas,
:12:33. > :12:37.if that is the relationship when the man is assuming their role,
:12:37. > :12:42.like the academic husband at the TV programme, there are going to be
:12:42. > :12:45.tensions, because that is not is something expected of the man. I
:12:45. > :12:55.think it Birgitte Nyborg, they have an agreement that in five years'
:12:55. > :12:58.
:12:58. > :13:02.time, he will get his tongue at his But it is that a pressure that if
:13:02. > :13:12.you do not have a family, you simply hand over your entire life
:13:12. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:22.to politics? Yes, a coup de a problem. But then again, I think it
:13:22. > :13:25.
:13:25. > :13:32.goes with every career? A you treated differently because you
:13:33. > :13:42.made that choice by you're male colleagues? I do not think so. I am
:13:43. > :13:44.
:13:44. > :13:49.quite assertive about it. Things have to give. I do not of a social
:13:49. > :13:56.life, but then again I have been a warm cooking meals for my daughter,
:13:56. > :14:01.which is great. You have to put the children first. Does the has become
:14:01. > :14:04.very self-selecting. If you look at the professions that people in the
:14:05. > :14:13.Scottish Parliament have come from, they're the likes of a lot of
:14:13. > :14:20.lawyers, medics, teachers. You do not see a lot of the likes of
:14:20. > :14:24.farmers, artists or the like. Is there a certain role you have
:14:24. > :14:31.previously fulfilled that helps when it goes to going to
:14:31. > :14:37.Parliament? If you look at politics been a very greedy institution in
:14:37. > :14:41.terms of it sucking your time, it is very excluding of the be the
:14:41. > :14:45.work pooled by you would take all politicians from. It raises the
:14:45. > :14:49.question of if you want to know what politics we want and what
:14:49. > :14:54.politicians we want and what sort of leaves we want them to manage,
:14:54. > :15:01.what is clear is that we do not allow politicians to have much of a
:15:01. > :15:11.life. I would like to have some sort of hinterland, some sort of
:15:11. > :15:13.
:15:13. > :15:16.experience that they do go home. That is why it is important for me
:15:16. > :15:24.if the likes of, my daughter says she has a school Cont concert,
:15:25. > :15:31.which is quite a regular thing because she plays music, have
:15:31. > :15:38.important is it that people from other parties to say, I am out of
:15:38. > :15:42.the door at a certain time. Is it very tribal and the respect? There
:15:42. > :15:52.have not heard of kids being vilified for going to their
:15:52. > :15:55.
:15:55. > :16:04.You have to be there for the Broda. You have to be there at 5 o'clock
:16:04. > :16:07.at night. But most people do work until five. It is just because we
:16:07. > :16:13.work longer hours the rest of the time that you might work well into
:16:14. > :16:17.the night the rest of the time. What is interesting is that there
:16:17. > :16:22.are all sorts of reasons you might want reforms for flexibility, no
:16:22. > :16:26.one is talking about family friendly hours and if you increase
:16:27. > :16:34.the sitting times of the parliament you are moving back on those
:16:34. > :16:38.original things that had a sudden I've value if not a practical value.
:16:38. > :16:42.Thank you very much from both of you. And now here's the lunchtime
:16:42. > :16:44.news with Gillian Smart. Good Afternoon. The Rangers manager
:16:44. > :16:47.Ally McCoist is welcoming the Scottish Football Association's
:16:47. > :16:49.investigation into events at the club. Meanwhile, administrators are
:16:49. > :16:53.examining information on the takeover and running of the side to
:16:53. > :16:56.form a fuller picture of its finances. Rangers lost 1-0 to
:16:56. > :17:04.Kilmarnock yesterday afternoon at a sold out Ibrox in their first game
:17:04. > :17:09.since going into administration. The amount of clarity that comes
:17:09. > :17:14.out in the whole issue is obviously vital to everybody, supporters, you
:17:14. > :17:19.guys, employees and everybody. We want all the facts and figures and
:17:19. > :17:23.everything, everything disclosed. I think it is the very least the
:17:23. > :17:26.supporters and the staff deserve. The energy giant Exxon Mobil has
:17:26. > :17:28.been fined �2.8 million for failing to report 33,000 tonnes of carbon
:17:28. > :17:31.dioxide emissions at its ethylene plant in Mosmorran. The Scottish
:17:31. > :17:33.Environmental Protection Agency issued the fine in 2010 and says
:17:33. > :17:39.the penalty was a mandatory consequence of breaching the EU
:17:39. > :17:45.Emmisions trading scheme. Its thought to be the biggest fine ever
:17:45. > :17:50.for an environmental offence in the A sunny afternoon here in Glasgow,
:17:50. > :17:54.A sunny afternoon here in Glasgow, here's Cat Cubie with the forecast.
:17:54. > :17:58.Good afternoon. It was a chilly start this morning and the frost
:17:58. > :18:03.will be slow to lift in some places. We will continue to the wintry snow
:18:03. > :18:07.showers in the north. Some sunshine especially across the south and
:18:07. > :18:14.east. It will stay chilly. Temperatures only reaching around
:18:14. > :18:17.four Celsius. Overnight we will see a change with the front at pushing
:18:17. > :18:21.in from the West. There will be outbreaks of rain across the
:18:21. > :18:24.country and a strengthening wind. It will bring milder air.
:18:24. > :18:27.That's all for now, our next bulletin is at 6.20pm. I'll hand
:18:27. > :18:30.you back now to Isabel. Thanks Gillian. Now in a moment,
:18:30. > :18:40.we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week, but first,
:18:40. > :18:46.
:18:46. > :18:51.let's take a look back at the Week Rangers football club went into
:18:51. > :18:57.administration with the tax liability being up to �75 million.
:18:57. > :19:02.An inquiry will be held. The level is so high that it would be
:19:02. > :19:06.completely unmanageable if we allow it to come to a conclusion.
:19:06. > :19:11.report into the murder of a toddler by his mother says that social
:19:11. > :19:16.workers should have acted sooner but concedes that she was devious.
:19:16. > :19:20.A Aberdeen run of -- residents look at redevelopment plans and the
:19:20. > :19:23.Designing architect from York once the architect -- public to fall in
:19:23. > :19:33.love with his vision. The number of people out of work in
:19:33. > :19:38.Scotland has risen. It is now a 0.6%. It is 8.4% of the rest of the
:19:38. > :19:44.Finally, Edinburgh-born a comedian Robbie, a bet that -- Ronnie
:19:44. > :19:47.Corbett was awarded a CBE. So it looks like the two big
:19:47. > :19:56.stories this week have revolved around negotiations, both on and
:19:56. > :19:59.off the pitch. With me today we have two political
:19:59. > :20:09.journalists, Angus Macleod from the Times, and Alex Massie from The
:20:09. > :20:10.
:20:10. > :20:13.Spectator. Thank you very much for coming in.
:20:13. > :20:17.Where do you think we have got to on the hold who says what on the
:20:17. > :20:21.referendum and what they really mean and where it will end up?
:20:21. > :20:25.has been fascinating and that is the perfectly safe. I have a
:20:25. > :20:29.strange impression that now that all the Unionist parties are
:20:29. > :20:36.groping towards a position somewhere on a line between the
:20:36. > :20:39.Scotland Bill at one end and D Lomax and the other. Alastair
:20:39. > :20:46.Darling's intervention is very significant. He is putting himself
:20:46. > :20:49.somewhere on that line alongside David Cameron. One other thing
:20:49. > :20:56.which is speculation, what is assuming more significance than
:20:56. > :21:01.people David when it was launched what the Lib Dem Commission. I
:21:01. > :21:04.think when it reports it will be interesting to see what it says.
:21:04. > :21:08.Danny Alexander and Nick Clegg are both behind that report and they
:21:08. > :21:12.are members of a group that is directing this Coalition. Could it
:21:12. > :21:15.be, absolute speculation, but could it be that the Coalition will find
:21:15. > :21:22.itself throwing his weight behind whatever that commission comes up
:21:22. > :21:25.with? It is interesting because today the Lib Dems have issued an
:21:25. > :21:29.offer to other parties to say it have a look at what we are coming
:21:29. > :21:37.up with a we can all work of that sheep if you like? Is that a
:21:37. > :21:43.potential way forwards? I think that line has gone to some extent.
:21:43. > :21:51.We have moved to a situation where the question will be yes to
:21:51. > :21:55.independence or no to independence to being one that maybe more
:21:55. > :22:02.complicated. Will there be fiscal autonomy or real home rule? The Lib
:22:02. > :22:06.Dems have a a Goldilocks -- Arie Goldie looks of the Unionist
:22:06. > :22:11.parties. They are neither too hot nor too cold and they can Perhaps
:22:12. > :22:15.persuade Labour and Conservatives are to meet in the middle. They may
:22:15. > :22:20.offer a range of proposals. Those proposals will obviously have to be
:22:20. > :22:25.clarified and spelt out at some point and that has to be spelt out
:22:25. > :22:28.before there is a referendum and not after. Is it a point that they
:22:28. > :22:34.cannot hold the line for much longer which says just trust us and
:22:34. > :22:38.we will actually give you something? Will that still be
:22:38. > :22:42.credible? If it is not he defines what the alternative proposals will
:22:42. > :22:50.be? If you have three Unionist camps who will be playing to their
:22:50. > :22:53.own bases? Who will do fine where to go? That is a great danger for
:22:53. > :22:58.the Unionist camp that I can use that phrase. You might get three
:22:58. > :23:01.different versions bouncing around. It is not credible. I think
:23:01. > :23:06.commonsense and political sense will come into play the up. People
:23:06. > :23:09.will realise that you cannot go into a referendum saying vote no
:23:10. > :23:14.and you never know what you might get because if that is the case
:23:14. > :23:20.then that vote becomes the real leap in the dark and not the vote
:23:21. > :23:24.for yes. Do you agree with that? Entirely. There are questions that
:23:24. > :23:28.have to be asked and answered by independence but at least everybody
:23:28. > :23:32.has a decent notion of what independence might be like. It is a
:23:32. > :23:37.relatively certain thing. At the moment from Mr Darling and Mr
:23:37. > :23:40.Cameron and other senior members of the Unionist opposition we have a
:23:40. > :23:46.complete lack of clarity and a complete lack of certainty. You
:23:46. > :23:54.can't actually put it as a matter of faith or trust it has to have
:23:54. > :23:58.real answers. We saw David Cameron saying something that Ruth Davidson
:23:58. > :24:01.had not taken a position on and now Alistair Darling a thing he could
:24:01. > :24:07.look at income tax powers and are not ruling out other powers and yet
:24:07. > :24:11.we have not heard that from Johann Lamont. What is going on? Too much
:24:11. > :24:15.has been made of this Ruth Davidson line in the sand. She make -- she
:24:15. > :24:19.said it last August when she was still only a candidate in the
:24:19. > :24:23.leadership election. It ignores a point about policy evolves in any
:24:23. > :24:27.political party and especially if you have a stutter just like George
:24:27. > :24:31.Osborne in your ranks when he is certainly beginning to drive the
:24:31. > :24:40.policy of the Conservative Party in the whole constitutional argument
:24:40. > :24:43.in Scotland in terms of labour --. In terms of labour it seems that
:24:43. > :24:48.Johann Lamont will say something very important. What we are
:24:48. > :24:55.watching for is not simply that she launches a Labour campaign to save
:24:55. > :24:59.devolution but that she perhaps follows the Alistair Darling path
:24:59. > :25:04.and set something out on this programme and in a Sunday newspaper.
:25:04. > :25:08.If Alastair Darling is heading this up, could it 0.2 AC given a role
:25:08. > :25:12.for him in the campaign and does it not highlight the fact that we have
:25:12. > :25:17.not heard enough from people within Scotland? You could argue we have
:25:17. > :25:20.had far too much from Labour in Scotland! On this particular issue
:25:20. > :25:26.you could say there has been a welcome silence from Labour in
:25:26. > :25:31.Scotland! The Labour Scottish leadership appears to be at best
:25:31. > :25:41.tangential to the debate and probably utterly irrelevant. Yes,
:25:41. > :25:45.Alastair Darling, Douglas Alexander, these are Labour's heavy hitters
:25:45. > :25:47.but moving towards a greater range of powers, particularly on the
:25:47. > :25:51.physical side of things in the Scottish Parliament, this is
:25:51. > :25:57.something that the Conservatives should be backing as well. It fits
:25:57. > :26:01.in with a jaw Tory principles of localism, accountability and the
:26:01. > :26:08.need for Parliament to raise money as well as spend it. What will be
:26:08. > :26:13.interesting is that we see an alliance between the Tories and the
:26:13. > :26:17.SNP's. That argument did not wash with the grass roots. Do not forget
:26:17. > :26:23.that Labour are crucial in this process simply because in any
:26:23. > :26:29.referendum the Labour votes that they can deliver on one side in a
:26:29. > :26:35.referendum could be the decisive factor. We are almost out of time.
:26:35. > :26:38.Do you have anything to say about Rangers? It is a terrible shame.
:26:39. > :26:42.Obviously it is a shock but it is one of these kind of inevitable
:26:42. > :26:48.shocks. I do not understand how people can go around saying that
:26:48. > :26:55.Celtic could survive without Rangers. I just do not see it. I
:26:55. > :26:58.think is daydreaming. Do you have anything to say about Borgen.
:26:58. > :27:04.terrific. Everybody should watch it. Could there be a Scottish version