:00:39. > :00:43.Good afternoon and welcome to the Sunday Politics. Our top story.
:00:43. > :00:47.Could wrangling in the coalition over the budget end with a new
:00:47. > :00:51.mansion tax and the scrapping of the 50 p tax rate? I will be
:00:51. > :00:54.speaking to the new Lib Dem Business Minister Norman Lamb.
:00:54. > :00:58.Alex Salmond tells me he is so confident of winning a referendum
:00:58. > :01:02.on Scottish independence, he will kick off the yes campaign this May.
:01:02. > :01:05.Scotland's First Minister joins us for the Sunday interview.
:01:05. > :01:15.As the price of petrol reaches record highs, should the Chancellor
:01:15. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :01:35.cut fuel duty? A petrol head and a green campaigner go head to head.
:01:35. > :01:38.And our political panel of the best and brightest, here every week to
:01:38. > :01:40.analyse British politics in the week ahead and tweeting throughout
:01:40. > :01:42.the programme. Scottish Labour shrugs off the sackcloth and ashes
:01:42. > :01:45.as Johann Lamont talks wealth redistribution, social justice and
:01:45. > :01:48.re-engaging with the unions. And was Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg
:01:48. > :01:58.feeling the love at the party conference in Inverness, the former
:01:58. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :26:51.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1492 seconds
:26:51. > :27:01.stronghold wiped out in the People are spending more. Clothing,
:27:01. > :27:03.
:27:03. > :27:08.food, household goods. You have moved the money from
:27:08. > :27:16.spending on flu ordure t two spending on other things. What to
:27:16. > :27:20.be wrong with that? If you look at the long term, if you are going to
:27:21. > :27:27.spend money on things like this, you should spend it on getting
:27:27. > :27:33.people out of car dependency. Any cut is just going to be followed up
:27:33. > :27:43.by speculation. What you need to be spending money on his reversing bus
:27:43. > :27:44.
:27:44. > :27:48.cuts, cutting inflation and rises in train fares. If you have not got
:27:48. > :27:52.a car, and you local bus service has been cut, you cannot go
:27:52. > :27:58.anywhere at all. A most of us do have a car, why should we have to
:27:58. > :28:03.pay more than our European neighbours? I would accept the
:28:03. > :28:11.delay in any further increase. But a cut is effectively Government
:28:11. > :28:17.spending. That should be spent on getting us out of this problem.
:28:17. > :28:26.will give people a relief that socially. Since 1997, the overall
:28:26. > :28:31.cost of motoring, unlike the public transport sector, has fallen.
:28:31. > :28:37.that to the people who write to me who are saying that because the
:28:37. > :28:41.commute, they have had to give up their job. It as a deeply serious
:28:41. > :28:51.issue that is the emasculating the economy, stopping people going to
:28:51. > :28:51.
:28:51. > :28:57.work and interviews. High off of all -- half of all families in
:28:57. > :29:06.poverty do not have a car and that is made even worse by the lack of
:29:06. > :29:11.public transport. We have got to develop a transport system, but it
:29:11. > :29:19.will take as 10 years and probably 100 billion it to do that. It is
:29:19. > :29:24.important that the catch up. A cut in fuel duty would not help that.
:29:24. > :29:34.But it would help ordinary families. He so would organising better bus
:29:34. > :29:41.services. We have to have other ways of getting about. It will cost
:29:41. > :29:46.hundreds of billions of pounds. doing are gradually, it would be
:29:46. > :29:56.affordable. It is laudable and we should be doing it, but that will
:29:56. > :29:56.
:29:56. > :30:06.not help now. We used to see that it was almost... Their due duty is
:30:06. > :30:13.lower in real terms and it wasn't 2009 so you have had your cut.
:30:13. > :30:18.of the price of fuel goes on tax. It does make business more
:30:18. > :30:26.expensive. It is making us less competitive. Few prices will only
:30:26. > :30:32.go up and the future. In that long term, we needed to reduce their
:30:32. > :30:38.dependence of our economy on oil. How would you pay for it? You have
:30:38. > :30:48.to find the money to pay for the fuel duty? A I would increase
:30:48. > :30:49.
:30:49. > :30:59.economic activity. By reducing duty,... We will have to leave it
:30:59. > :31:05.
:31:05. > :31:11.Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up
:31:11. > :31:15.on the programme. Scottish Labour and the Lib Dems are in conference
:31:15. > :31:21.groove this weekend. What plans and policies are they hatching? Johann
:31:21. > :31:25.Lamont joins us to explain Labour's new strategy here. Off with
:31:25. > :31:28.sackcloth and ashes and on with social justice and equality.
:31:28. > :31:31.And as Scotland fights to be the location for the UK'S first green
:31:31. > :31:36.investment bank, the Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg tells us it could be
:31:36. > :31:40.built on Mars, what matters is where it invests. And I am in Wales
:31:40. > :31:43.to find out why the Scottish referendum has got this country
:31:43. > :31:46.talking about its own political future.
:31:46. > :31:49.When Labour gathered in Dundee on Friday, their UK leader Ed Miliband
:31:49. > :31:52.wanted to talk about the economy. But off-stage, the issue of
:31:52. > :31:55.Scotland's constitutional future just wouldn't go away. Johann
:31:55. > :31:57.Lamont used her first conference speech as leader to announce a new
:31:57. > :32:07.commission on further devolution within the UK. Niall O'Gallagher
:32:07. > :32:14.
:32:14. > :32:24.Labour say their position is not desperate. But they have not got
:32:24. > :32:25.
:32:25. > :32:32.much to laugh about after last year's defeat in the local
:32:32. > :32:36.elections. That would simply guarantee another defeat. The
:32:36. > :32:40.threat so to Scotland are two great and the risks are to deal for
:32:40. > :32:49.Scottish Labour to settle for a quiet life of decline and a defeat.
:32:49. > :32:56.We need it to change and change radically, not to disavow our
:32:56. > :32:59.greatest beliefs. Scotland is giving Ed Miliband a headache. He
:32:59. > :33:09.knows the independence would make it difficult for him to become
:33:09. > :33:19.Prime Minister. But he is also concerned about plans to devolve
:33:19. > :33:19.
:33:19. > :33:27.further tax to Holyrood. The SNP say that be want Scandinavian level
:33:27. > :33:34.of public services. But you cannot create that if you are asking for
:33:34. > :33:37.Irish levels of corporation tax. That is the reality. Then came a
:33:37. > :33:42.plea to Scottish voters not to accept the Nationalist portrayal of
:33:42. > :33:47.England as a Tory nation of. must reject attempts to divide our
:33:47. > :33:57.country by ideology or geography. We are not left wing Scotland and
:33:57. > :34:01.
:34:01. > :34:08.right wing England. We are one Ed Miliband largely stayed away
:34:08. > :34:13.from the debate on more powers for Scotland in the United Kingdom and
:34:14. > :34:23.whether support for such a question should be on the referendum ballot
:34:24. > :34:28.
:34:28. > :34:34.paper. But his remarks on Labour's Scottish leader Johann
:34:34. > :34:40.Lamont went to Aberdeen University to read the future of their video
:34:40. > :34:46.games industry. It will have to be if the manoeuvring over Scotland's
:34:46. > :34:55.future is set to dominate her leadership. She allows a commission
:34:55. > :35:00.to look at devolution would they mack the United Kingdom. Our ideals
:35:00. > :35:05.endured. But we have to strengthen the United Kingdom and Scotland's
:35:05. > :35:09.place in Ed. Before we do that, we must take to the country the case
:35:09. > :35:13.for Scotland remaining in the United Kingdom. Labour did not want
:35:13. > :35:18.to spend this conference talking about the constitution. But with a
:35:18. > :35:22.referendum on the horizon, they did not have much choice. We insist
:35:22. > :35:26.that they are united on the issue of more powers, but we still do not
:35:26. > :35:36.know what kind of devolution settlement they will be arguing for
:35:36. > :35:38.
:35:38. > :35:48.when the referendum comes. Johann -- a Johann Lamont joins us
:35:48. > :35:53.live now. What kind of radical proposals were you be coming up
:35:53. > :35:58.with? I said that the choice in powers is not about how many powers
:35:58. > :36:01.we can gather at the Scottish Parliament, it is about what works
:36:01. > :36:07.in the interests of the people of Scotland. The devolution commission
:36:07. > :36:14.will look at everything, tested against the evidence of their
:36:14. > :36:17.impact on people's jobs and the economy. And corporation tax?
:36:18. > :36:27.feels to me, and this is the case that we will look at, if you have
:36:27. > :36:33.corporation tax, the only people that benefit are those who do not
:36:33. > :36:38.want to pay corporation tax. It feels a good deal for businesses
:36:38. > :36:43.but not for public services. But we will look and examine in detail the
:36:43. > :36:46.consequences of this. You could always a raise corporation tax?
:36:46. > :36:52.could raise corporation tax. You will end up at the same place
:36:52. > :36:56.however. You will have competition across the United Kingdom. I am not
:36:56. > :37:00.sure that is a rational way to run the economy. I did say that London
:37:00. > :37:08.is one of the strongest and wealthiest hubs in the world. And
:37:08. > :37:15.we are going to go into competition him with London and? Just to
:37:15. > :37:25.clarify here, are you saying that if you raise corporation tax in
:37:25. > :37:27.
:37:27. > :37:30.Scotland, you will have competition across the UK? The logic of having
:37:31. > :37:35.corporation tax set at different levels across the United Kingdom or
:37:35. > :37:39.feels to me that we will end up in a place with wasteful competition.
:37:39. > :37:42.And a race to the bottom. But we will interrogate those options,
:37:42. > :37:46.look at and examine the consequences of any of these models
:37:46. > :37:52.other Test will be, is it in their interest of the people of Scotland,
:37:52. > :38:02.will it create jobs and a stronger economy? I am sorry for the delay
:38:02. > :38:07.on this line. You were talking about London being one of the
:38:07. > :38:17.richest international hubs. It is quite a tricky area for Labour to
:38:17. > :38:17.
:38:17. > :38:22.go into. You said, London is one of the register international hubs,
:38:23. > :38:32.you could go down the road of perpetuating the myth of saying
:38:33. > :38:36.
:38:36. > :38:40.that Scotland is too poor to compete? I do not accept that. The
:38:40. > :38:46.United Kingdom is a partnership, we work in corporation. Where there is
:38:46. > :38:50.lead, resources are distributed towards that made. That seems to be
:38:51. > :38:54.to be a logical and rational. It is all the if you define yourself
:38:54. > :38:59.entirely within the countries within the United Kingdom that that
:38:59. > :39:04.it becomes at are the core concept to hold onto. In a difficult
:39:04. > :39:09.economic times, coming together is the best place for the people of
:39:09. > :39:13.Scotland. I am not talking Scotland down. The people of Scotland may
:39:13. > :39:17.choose to separate from the rest of the United Kingdom, but we have to
:39:17. > :39:23.have a rational debate about the strengths of being part of the
:39:23. > :39:27.United Kingdom and the consequences of separation. He two-thirds of
:39:27. > :39:31.people questioned recently said they wanted more taxation powers to
:39:31. > :39:36.go to Holyrood. That is why I have established a devolution commission
:39:36. > :39:40.and why I am committed to looking at those are right. It is not about
:39:40. > :39:48.accumulating powers in the Scottish Parliament, it is how those powers
:39:48. > :39:53.are used to. Do you their tax take has to be higher than it now is?
:39:53. > :39:59.think we have to look at how, employ of times, we spend our money.
:39:59. > :40:03.Equality is not just for when the sun shines. But you come out Lyme
:40:03. > :40:08.how you want to spend it, but how do you want to raise it. -- outline.
:40:08. > :40:12.You have a very ambitious programme of what you want to do. People will
:40:12. > :40:17.be wondering where that money will come from? Should the tax take the
:40:17. > :40:23.higher? The if you have a strong economy and strong economic
:40:23. > :40:27.activity, you will have more money to spend. That is the impact.
:40:27. > :40:31.in the meantime? Until then, we have to do with the situation that
:40:31. > :40:35.we are in. The difficulty that I think we have a relation to council
:40:35. > :40:40.tax, the Scottish government is committed to a council tax freeze
:40:40. > :40:50.but they are not funded it. That is the challenge that our councils are
:40:50. > :40:50.
:40:50. > :40:56.us facing at this time. Should we be looking at them, when it
:40:56. > :41:04.Scotland is considering where it goes, should we be looking at
:41:04. > :41:14.targeting businesses more, raising corporation tax? Troubles the sort
:41:14. > :41:18.
:41:18. > :41:23.of areas that should be looked at? I think you have to look at all of
:41:23. > :41:28.these things. There was something you said in your speech that you
:41:28. > :41:33.were going to look at the whole system of selecting candidates, how
:41:33. > :41:41.they come forward and how the party brings them on. You said that the
:41:41. > :41:45.party machine could stifle talent, what did you mean by that? I think
:41:45. > :41:49.like all political parties we end up becoming obsessed with the
:41:49. > :41:53.machine and the bureaucracy of making decisions when in fact
:41:53. > :41:57.people want to be engaged with the political debate and active in
:41:57. > :42:03.understanding how people live their lives. We need to open up our
:42:03. > :42:07.structures. It does mean that unless you are prepared to sit
:42:07. > :42:12.through 100 different meetings about matters arising you tend to
:42:12. > :42:16.think you will perhaps not bother. We need to create a culture that
:42:16. > :42:23.refreshes the idea of why political parties exist and encourage people
:42:23. > :42:28.to engage in politics. That is really part of the whole of our job.
:42:28. > :42:34.In terms of who actually goes on to represent Labour in Scotland, do
:42:34. > :42:38.you think that sitting MPs and MSPs should be more open to challenge
:42:38. > :42:45.rather than the situation at the moment where they just get rubber-
:42:45. > :42:49.stamped by the constituency party? No one who has a Labour candidate
:42:49. > :42:55.or or Labour elected member has a job for life. Any Labour candidate
:42:55. > :43:00.has to earn the right to be a candidate. How do you enforce that
:43:00. > :43:05.practical issue? I think we have to set a standard and engage with our
:43:05. > :43:12.elected members. We have spoken about contracts for elected members
:43:13. > :43:16.which I think is one way that it can be done. It is critically
:43:17. > :43:23.important that elected members are engaged with and involved with
:43:23. > :43:27.their constituents and also in engaging with the important
:43:27. > :43:31.political debates of the day. terms of setting standards, Eric
:43:31. > :43:38.Joyce says he will not contest the next election, do you think he
:43:38. > :43:46.should stand down before then? have been very clear that the
:43:46. > :43:51.allegations made against him suggest an abuse of trust in his
:43:51. > :43:57.position. We cannot make him stand down but I think people would
:43:57. > :44:01.expect him to do the right thing. Which in your opinion is to stand
:44:02. > :44:05.down? I think the people of Falkirk deserved a representative that
:44:05. > :44:11.reaches the standards we would expect of somebody in elected
:44:11. > :44:17.position. So is that a yes that he should stand down? It is my view
:44:17. > :44:21.that he should stand down but that is not under my control. I believe
:44:21. > :44:26.that his actions are those of someone who is not fit to represent
:44:27. > :44:31.people. Are you confident that you would win a by-election there if
:44:31. > :44:36.Eric Joyce stands down as you want? We are confident in Labour's
:44:37. > :44:41.message. All will we lost the last election we did not lose our values
:44:41. > :44:46.or our commitment to the people of Scotland. That is the case we
:44:46. > :44:54.should take to the people if there is by election. Her have you spoken
:44:54. > :45:00.to Eric Joyce? No. So how have you managed to satisfy yourself as to
:45:00. > :45:05.his version of events before you make a decision to that he should
:45:05. > :45:10.stand down now? What I have said is that if the allegations are true
:45:10. > :45:16.then in my view he is not fit to be a Labour candidate for a Labour MP.
:45:16. > :45:21.Can I ask you about D Green Investment Bank, do you think the
:45:21. > :45:26.referendum debate makes that more or less likely? I think in general
:45:26. > :45:30.terms the debate on the referendum must now move beyond process. I
:45:30. > :45:34.have said I want a referendum earlier rather than later because I
:45:34. > :45:39.am concerned for the uncertainty and businesses have come out and
:45:39. > :45:49.said that in recent weeks. We need to get on to the core of the debate
:45:49. > :45:49.
:45:49. > :45:57.as to what Scotland would look like in the case of independence. You do
:45:57. > :46:03.not have a debate as to whether Scotland being independent would
:46:03. > :46:08.sweep the Westminster banks? I am supportive of the United Kingdom,
:46:08. > :46:14.Scotland strong, and shading the benefits of investment across the
:46:14. > :46:20.UK. I would clearly prefer Scotland within the United Kingdom with a
:46:20. > :46:25.green investment bank coming to Scotland. 500 days rather than
:46:25. > :46:30.1,000 days after the consultation ends, is that a timescale you would
:46:30. > :46:36.time -- sign up to? I started off with my new year message which
:46:36. > :46:40.feels like a very long time ago seeing that we should make 2012 the
:46:40. > :46:45.year of the referendum. The process should be started and we should
:46:45. > :46:52.make a decision in 2013. I think it is a debate that needs to be
:46:52. > :46:57.brought forward. Thank you very much indeed. The issue of
:46:57. > :47:07.independence has also been a central thread running through the
:47:07. > :47:10.
:47:10. > :47:15.Liberal Democrats' Scottish conference. Activists say the party
:47:15. > :47:21.is bouncing back from its drubbing in last year's Scottish
:47:21. > :47:28.parliamentary elections. A striking combination of plush visuals and
:47:29. > :47:36.knife-edge drama. Not quite the Lib Dems Scottish conference but the
:47:36. > :47:42.venue shows films to. After their dismal showing in last year's
:47:42. > :47:48.elections this could have been the main showing this weekend but the
:47:48. > :47:54.party seemed to have a spring in its step. We got a drubbing last
:47:54. > :47:57.year, there are no two weighs about that. We did not put our message
:47:57. > :48:03.forward terribly well. People are picking themselves up and getting
:48:03. > :48:08.on with it. What has been exercising the minds of the party
:48:08. > :48:13.faithful this weekend? The elephant in the room is one the Liberal
:48:13. > :48:17.Democrats did not invite, the SNP plans for an independence
:48:17. > :48:24.referendum, that has popped up in just about every single keynote
:48:24. > :48:28.address. I C two D SNP, quit stalling, let's work together, get
:48:29. > :48:38.the wheels in motion and allow people to decide their future in
:48:38. > :48:44.500 days. -- I say to the SNP. timing of the referendum should be
:48:44. > :48:47.dictated by Scotland's national interest. My hope and that of my
:48:48. > :48:52.party is that the people of Scotland choose to stay within the
:48:52. > :48:57.United Kingdom. As an English man I believe that our countries are much
:48:57. > :49:02.stronger together than they would be a part. We all in Scotland want
:49:02. > :49:07.to get on with this debate. Let's have it sooner rather than later.
:49:07. > :49:16.It seems to me perfectly adequate that we could do this within 500
:49:16. > :49:23.days. We do not need to wait the best part of three years. Despite
:49:23. > :49:28.this eagerness to push Alex Salmond towards an early poll in the
:49:28. > :49:32.corridors and bars I felt a lack of buyers at this conference. The
:49:32. > :49:37.speeches and debates were worthy and largely well attended but where
:49:37. > :49:43.was the passion? I do not think Liberal Democrats get up and shout
:49:43. > :49:48.about it, they get on and do it. I had a good conversation with Vince
:49:48. > :49:52.Cable which was gentle but informative. That is our starting
:49:52. > :50:01.block. We are not going to get up and shout, we are quietly
:50:01. > :50:06.passionate. Politicians have got their heads buried in the sand. We
:50:06. > :50:11.have to try every avenue we can to get them to wake up and changed
:50:11. > :50:15.policy, change direction and stop wrecking our heritage. You can
:50:15. > :50:20.often judge party conference by the number of exhibitors or lobbyists
:50:20. > :50:26.keen to push their point of view and products. You in Inverness this
:50:26. > :50:33.weekend they seem to be a bit thin on the ground. I think it is a bit
:50:33. > :50:37.quieter than in Perth last year. There are certainly more people but
:50:37. > :50:46.there seems to be less of the third sector, the voluntary sector this
:50:46. > :50:52.time round. The party in Scotland has moved on from the shock of last
:50:52. > :50:59.May when their number in Holyrood was sliced from 17 to just five.
:50:59. > :51:04.That was then, this is now, say activists. The council elections
:51:04. > :51:10.beckon in just a few weeks and the Lib Dems are confident. The theatre
:51:10. > :51:15.posters may just see it all. I spoke to Nick Clegg just after his
:51:15. > :51:20.speech. He opened by saying liberals from the Highlands and
:51:20. > :51:27.Islands have always been at the heart of the party. So, was the
:51:27. > :51:35.loss of every seat in the bastion of Highland liberalism a price
:51:35. > :51:38.worth paying for a coalition Government? If anyone has an easy
:51:38. > :51:43.alternative to the current economic plight of the country stick it on a
:51:43. > :51:49.postcard and send it to me. The Two's says there are no easy
:51:49. > :51:55.solutions. We have inherited this economic mess from Labour where the
:51:55. > :52:00.banks gorged themselves on bonuses and pushed the economy right to the
:52:00. > :52:06.edge. We in this Government happen to be dead people who have to start
:52:06. > :52:12.putting the pieces back together again. It requires unpopular
:52:12. > :52:18.decisions and controversial decisions. My judgment is doing
:52:18. > :52:23.best repair job to the economy is our first duty. I make no apologies
:52:23. > :52:29.at all in seeing that four time to time it is not bad for politicians
:52:29. > :52:32.to do the right thing. It might not easy to do the right thing in the
:52:33. > :52:39.national interest. I certainly feel that even those people who were
:52:39. > :52:43.angry last year are at least now prepared to accept the motives of
:52:43. > :52:53.the Liberal Democrats entering the coalition when you compare what is
:52:53. > :52:53.
:52:53. > :52:58.going on in other countries of the eurozone, ours are good motives.
:52:59. > :53:06.we look at how some Liberal Democrats in Government conduct
:53:06. > :53:12.themselves, you mentioned Danny Alexander, you said he is good at
:53:12. > :53:17.negotiating with the unions, do you sense there are many Lib-Dem voters
:53:17. > :53:24.who feel that Danny Alexander has engaged in union-bashing with
:53:24. > :53:32.unseemly haste? First, I would suggest a little sense of humour is
:53:32. > :53:42.always worthwhile. Not nesses sadly when pensions are going down the
:53:42. > :53:45.
:53:45. > :53:55.stream? -- ness Sally. -- necessarily. The pension system we
:53:55. > :53:59.
:53:59. > :54:02.inherited is widely recognised to be unsustainable. I think what
:54:02. > :54:07.Danny Alexander has done in negotiating a fair pension
:54:07. > :54:12.settlement with the trade unions is to guarantee public sector pensions
:54:12. > :54:18.to remain among the best pensions available in the UK. It is an
:54:18. > :54:22.incredibly Porter and.. You casually suggest that somehow
:54:22. > :54:32.public sector pensions are being decimated, they are actually being
:54:32. > :54:33.
:54:33. > :54:42.retained as some of the best. We do not have anything remotely like the
:54:42. > :54:52.pensions elsewhere. Someone like Danny Alexander is especially
:54:52. > :54:58.favourable and protective to get a progressive and come. People in the
:54:58. > :55:08.Highlands, if there are boundary changes, whose lines do you think
:55:08. > :55:10.
:55:10. > :55:20.time best with the voters here in the Highlands? I think both China
:55:20. > :55:22.
:55:22. > :55:25.with they're voters. But to do you think will win? I am not going to
:55:25. > :55:33.pretend that they are at the opposite ends of some political
:55:33. > :55:42.scale. Perhaps they both believe it is important for people in politics
:55:42. > :55:47.to combine something that is unique to the Liberal Democrats. There is
:55:47. > :55:52.nothing feared by simply struggling -- shrugging your folders and
:55:52. > :55:56.saying we will get our children and grandchildren two p of this debt.
:55:56. > :56:06.We have to do the hard work for the future demonstrations -- future
:56:06. > :56:08.
:56:08. > :56:18.generations. The Liberal Democrats have a progressive instinct to
:56:18. > :56:19.
:56:19. > :56:28.reform the pensions and tax needs. You say you are not stopping at the
:56:28. > :56:32.Scotland Bill. Is it being overtaken effectively? No. It would
:56:32. > :56:37.be very odd to spurn the Scotland Bill when it is the largest
:56:37. > :56:42.transfer of money since the Act of Union. Why not tell people who you
:56:42. > :56:47.are actually? That is like seeing if you are on a journey you should
:56:47. > :56:53.not take the first step because you may not take the last step.
:56:53. > :57:00.Devolution is a process, not a tablet of stone. It is a process
:57:00. > :57:05.and a debate. If you look at Catalonia in Spain. It is a
:57:05. > :57:10.constant shifting debate about how many powers devolved from the
:57:10. > :57:18.centre to the nations. My own view, very clearly, is that you cannot
:57:18. > :57:24.have that debate. Liberals believe in home rule long before the SNP's
:57:24. > :57:29.began debating for independence. We set up a commission to seek to
:57:29. > :57:36.define what home rule looks like. You cannot really have that debate
:57:36. > :57:46.of further devolution to Scotland or for that matter, Wales, until
:57:46. > :57:49.
:57:49. > :57:58.you know whether the United Kingdom Without for one moment it turning
:57:58. > :58:03.one's nose up at a Scotland gaining far greater authority over how
:58:03. > :58:06.money is raised at unspent. Scots cannot make up their mind about
:58:06. > :58:13.whether they want to stay in the United Kingdom unless they have a
:58:13. > :58:17.very clear idea about what the options will be if they say no to
:58:17. > :58:27.independence. Perhaps it is about treating the electorate in Scotland
:58:27. > :58:30.
:58:30. > :58:39.as adults. What the SNP is suggesting, that you put the
:58:39. > :58:43.prospect of independence on the ballot paper, and then you put them
:58:43. > :58:53.further options on devolution. That is mixing things up and is somewhat
:58:53. > :58:56.cynical in I -- in my view. It is if they do not have the courage of
:58:57. > :59:03.their convictions. They want to take out an insurance policy at the
:59:03. > :59:13.same time. If you have those two Questions, and everyone says yes to
:59:13. > :59:16.
:59:16. > :59:20.both, which one do you pick? The experience I have had from
:59:20. > :59:24.referendums and observers also say this, if you want to be grown up
:59:24. > :59:28.with the electorate, give them a simple choice on a key question. Do
:59:28. > :59:34.not mix things up. I think everybody can understand that.
:59:34. > :59:38.There is a simple chronology. First, decide whether Scotland remains in
:59:38. > :59:44.the United Kingdom, then have this debate which we are kick-starting
:59:44. > :59:51.hear about further devolution of powers to Scotland. If you look at
:59:52. > :59:56.the Calman Commission and the Scotland Bill... You think progress
:59:56. > :00:01.is a rapid and radical? If you look at the progress from the
:00:01. > :00:10.establishment of the quarry rid of Parliament through to the Scotland
:00:10. > :00:18.Bill in a matter of years, compared to hundreds of years of nothing
:00:18. > :00:25.moving at all. Could you explain your comment about not putting
:00:25. > :00:29.Scotland in a box? The choice of taking Scotland out of the United
:00:29. > :00:36.Kingdom or keeping things as they are, just advocating the status quo
:00:36. > :00:45.would be like putting Scotland in a box. If we move onto the green
:00:45. > :00:51.energy statement, how do deliver that agreeing economic renaissance?
:00:51. > :00:55.We are delivering that already with hundreds of millions of pounds of
:00:55. > :01:03.investment into Scotland, producing hundreds and thousands of jobs. We
:01:03. > :01:09.are innovating as a government, setting up a green investment
:01:09. > :01:18.bank... Is that definitely coming to Scotland? That announcement will
:01:18. > :01:22.be made to by Vince Cable. If you want a renaissance in alternative
:01:23. > :01:27.energy in Scotland, that would be a logical thing to do? There is
:01:27. > :01:32.competition between different cities and towns over who is to
:01:32. > :01:42.host the Green Investment Bank. It could be located on Mars, it does
:01:42. > :01:51.not really matter, because what it does is provide money for renewable
:01:52. > :01:59.energies. If we get it right, it could mobilise about �15 billion of
:01:59. > :02:06.money. A real cream investment revolution. And Scotland has these
:02:06. > :02:09.fantastic natural resources, almost unparalleled in the world. But the
:02:10. > :02:17.government pulled their funding from the Longannet project on
:02:17. > :02:26.carbon capture. That project did not work in the way in which it had
:02:26. > :02:36.been designed. There was a considerable amount of money
:02:36. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:44.invested. I personally believe that carbon it capture projects are
:02:44. > :02:54.incredibly important. Talking about her energy bills, in the Highlands,
:02:54. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:04.the fuel duty a reduction, Charles Kennedy is saying this should be
:03:04. > :03:10.extended throughout the whole of the Highlands. In Caithness and
:03:10. > :03:15.Sutherland, people have to travel for greater distances. Wherever you
:03:15. > :03:19.go and the country, people see it would be good to extend it. If I
:03:19. > :03:24.asked my constituents in Sheffield, people would say it would be nice
:03:24. > :03:31.to have a fuel duty exemption in South Yorkshire as well. Fuel is
:03:31. > :03:35.very expensive or. We have the highest prices ever. But the pilot
:03:35. > :03:41.that Danny Alexander has pioneered is incredibly important and he has
:03:41. > :03:50.made a compelling and successful case that is the areas to which it
:03:50. > :03:55.applies face quite a unique challenges. So that is a negative -
:03:55. > :04:03.- and no to the rest of the Highlands? We will have to see how
:04:03. > :04:06.the pilot works. On Friday, a conference hosted by
:04:06. > :04:08.The Times in Edinburgh debated the future of the Union. The Sunday
:04:08. > :04:11.Politics met up with constitutional experts, economists and leading
:04:11. > :04:19.politicians who debated the issues to sample their views on the future
:04:19. > :04:29.of Scotland and the independence The union has been in a state of
:04:29. > :04:36.
:04:36. > :04:46.organic change it ever since 7007. There have been adjustments, --
:04:46. > :04:46.
:04:47. > :04:51.1707. This could be seen as an attempt to the -- it to be invented
:04:51. > :04:55.the union. It is not a question of economics. It is a question about
:04:55. > :05:00.identity. Who do the Scots have think they are? I think the near
:05:00. > :05:05.future, it is our very interesting conversation for people throughout
:05:05. > :05:12.this country about who we are, what is the nature of our identity?
:05:12. > :05:22.There is a technical conversation, how to be run our economies, and
:05:22. > :05:26.pay for our cells in the future? -- ourselves. Scotland would in
:05:26. > :05:31.economic terms be in much of the same place as an independent
:05:31. > :05:36.country as part of the union. Not much better or much worse. There
:05:36. > :05:41.are some big issues that need to be looked into. Post independence,
:05:41. > :05:48.would Scotland be a high tax, high spent country, or would it be a
:05:48. > :05:53.low-tax, low spent country? That has huge implications. For Scotland
:05:53. > :06:01.to be successful, it is better to do it within the union. But to be
:06:01. > :06:06.successful, Scotland needs greater fiscal powers. We would suggest
:06:06. > :06:16.that Scotland is given the wherewithal to raise the money it
:06:16. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:21.needs. It is a revolving Union. It changed a hundred years ago, it
:06:21. > :06:28.changed 10 years ago. But most people want to have a common
:06:28. > :06:32.political identity with people in England and Wales. A very strong at
:06:32. > :06:37.the very reasonable argument can be made for more powers short of
:06:37. > :06:42.independence. It is not one that I support, but there is an argument
:06:42. > :06:46.that can be made. But there is no cohesion, no clarity and low sense
:06:46. > :06:56.of coming-together on the unionist campaign at the moment. There will
:06:56. > :06:57.
:06:57. > :07:04.be an all-party campaign which will particularly the case for people
:07:04. > :07:10.staying in the United Kingdom. Canada, in Quebec, they had an
:07:10. > :07:20.independence referendum. This issue of Scotland's relationship with the
:07:20. > :07:21.
:07:21. > :07:27.union is one that will be continuously negotiated. Across the
:07:27. > :07:31.UK, thoughts have been turning to what independence might mean for
:07:31. > :07:41.the other home nations. This Thursday saw Wales celebrate St
:07:41. > :07:42.
:07:42. > :07:52.David's Day. We have been finding out why Wales is taking such a keen
:07:52. > :07:53.
:07:53. > :07:58.It became clear that the Scottish people will vote on independence in
:07:58. > :08:07.just over two years. It may be Scotland's referendum, but that
:08:07. > :08:12.cannot be separated from Wales' future. It cannot be underestimated
:08:12. > :08:17.how a major a ripple effect the current debate is having across the
:08:17. > :08:25.rest of the UK. Especially in Wales. From the Welsh point of view, of
:08:25. > :08:35.what would be left would be unrecognisable. If Scotland votes
:08:35. > :08:41.
:08:41. > :08:44.for independence, Wales would be part -- of a rump. The Welsh
:08:44. > :08:47.Assembly building sets in Cardiff quo stop some Assembly members say
:08:47. > :08:56.that the outcome of the Scottish debate is so important that it
:08:56. > :09:03.cannot be ignored by Welsh unionist politicians. We do not get a boat
:09:03. > :09:10.in the Scottish referendum, but we need a voice. It has an effect on
:09:10. > :09:16.what will happen to us in the future. Last year, the Assembly got
:09:16. > :09:21.power to make laws in devolved areas. Nationalists believe that
:09:21. > :09:26.they can use the Scottish debate to push for further powers here,
:09:26. > :09:29.perhaps even independence for Wales. He if the Scottish people board es
:09:29. > :09:34.in an independence referendum, the United Kingdom will no longer exist.
:09:34. > :09:39.We need to be thinking what kind of future we have for Wales. There is
:09:39. > :09:49.a danger that we will remain within a United Kingdom per England is so
:09:49. > :09:51.
:09:51. > :09:58.completely dominant that are voice will not be heard. -- our voice.
:09:58. > :10:07.recent BBC Wales and Paul suggests that patriot is it does not
:10:07. > :10:12.transferred into a national -- into a desire for independence. The
:10:12. > :10:22.First Minister Carwyn James hosted celebrations for St David's Day in
:10:22. > :10:25.Brussels. I am ever keen to follow anybody off the edge of a clever
:10:25. > :10:32.boy stop it is a matter for the people of Scotland what happens
:10:32. > :10:35.there. We need to look at the structure of the UK now rather than
:10:35. > :10:42.wait to see what happens in Scotland. It is something that
:10:42. > :10:46.affects the whole of the UK. comments have been echoed by a
:10:46. > :10:52.former First Minister of Wales who said that Unionists should campaign
:10:52. > :10:57.positively across the UK. general, I think it is much easier
:10:57. > :11:07.and more positive to be campaigning for a yes it to something. It is
:11:07. > :11:09.
:11:10. > :11:14.either yes to independence, adage should be yes to constitutional
:11:14. > :11:18.Convention and a commission which determines the funding formula that
:11:18. > :11:24.determines what Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and England get in
:11:24. > :11:27.terms of tax take. All parties agree that Wales is badly served by
:11:28. > :11:32.the Barnett formula which is how money is allocated to the devolved
:11:32. > :11:37.nations. An independent report found a short fall of �300 million
:11:37. > :11:45.a year missing from the Welsh budget. Scotland is widely regarded
:11:45. > :11:52.here as being over funded by Barnet. Alex Salmond told me that he would
:11:52. > :11:58.not support my campaign for a change in the Barnett formula and a
:11:58. > :12:03.change in the way that the Barnett Formula is allocated unless
:12:03. > :12:09.Scotland had control of its own oil and gas resources. At the moment,
:12:09. > :12:16.the Assembly has no control over taxation. But a recent survey
:12:16. > :12:19.suggests two-thirds of voters wants that to change. The Calman
:12:19. > :12:27.Commission is considering whether for the powers would be useful for
:12:27. > :12:37.the Welsh Assembly. And some of the smaller taxes may have come to the
:12:37. > :12:37.
:12:37. > :12:42.Welsh government. These are children of a devolved to Wales. By
:12:42. > :12:48.devolution is a process, not an event. The signs are that things
:12:48. > :12:58.will continue to change. For Scotland does it may go some way to
:12:58. > :13:03.
:13:03. > :13:07.shipping exactly what those changes I am joined now by an expert in
:13:07. > :13:13.Welsh politics. What is your impression of the effect of the
:13:13. > :13:19.Scottish debate in Wales? I think we need to distinguish between the
:13:19. > :13:29.popular level and the political class. At the popular level it is
:13:29. > :13:33.not all about Scotland. The Welsh people, having just approved
:13:33. > :13:41.devolution by the narrowest of margins, have moved quite rapidly
:13:41. > :13:49.into embracing the concept. One year ago today was when we were
:13:49. > :13:54.looking at the results of the last referendum. That is not really
:13:54. > :14:00.impacted by what is happening in Scotland, so far at least. The
:14:00. > :14:04.political class, on the other hand, is actually increasingly obsessed
:14:04. > :14:09.with what is going on in Scotland and think this is momentous. Many
:14:09. > :14:18.of them seem to believe that Scotland will vote yes in a
:14:18. > :14:25.referendum. They think that Alex Salmond's nationalists are winning
:14:25. > :14:29.the debate. Therefore, they are very concerned. It does not have
:14:30. > :14:36.that kind of resonance and the popular level. But imagine what we
:14:36. > :14:39.have just heard, the Secretary for Wales and former First Minister are
:14:39. > :14:45.seeing we should have a constitutional convention for the
:14:45. > :14:47.whole of the UK. We have the present First Minister for Wales
:14:47. > :14:55.saying that it Scotland goes Independent we should federalising
:14:55. > :14:59.what remains of the UK. These are very radical solutions. There is a
:14:59. > :15:08.suggestion that even in Wales the status quo is possibly not an
:15:08. > :15:15.option in the long term. We have a commission meetings here in Wales
:15:15. > :15:22.at the moment looking at the issue of proper tax-varying powers. Plaid
:15:22. > :15:28.Cymru are actually involved in this. They will almost certainly
:15:28. > :15:35.recommend some form of tax are being powers to Wales. The unions
:15:35. > :15:41.are very nervous about that and want to look again at the Barnett
:15:41. > :15:46.formula. People here in Wales believe that gives Wales a bad deal
:15:46. > :15:51.and we tend to think that Scotland get far too much money out of the
:15:51. > :16:00.Barnett formula. Linking those things together makes it extremely
:16:00. > :16:05.difficult for the UK Government to find a way through that. What was
:16:05. > :16:11.interesting is when you look at the BBC survey about who wanted more
:16:11. > :16:17.powers, 36 % overall said that there should be. Off fluent Welsh
:16:17. > :16:21.speakers 54 % said there should be more powers. The identity politics
:16:21. > :16:26.as it were, someone who identify is very strongly with Wales thinks
:16:26. > :16:32.there should be more powers? Absolutely, although that has
:16:32. > :16:37.changed since 1997. At that point that tendency was even more
:16:37. > :16:45.pronounced. Welsh speakers were overwhelmingly in favour of more
:16:45. > :16:50.powers than non-Welsh speakers. Wales has become more unified
:16:50. > :16:54.around this issue than it used to be and less divided along
:16:55. > :16:59.linguistic lines even though that remains quite a striking Division
:16:59. > :17:05.looking from the outside. I am sorry, we are out of time on this.
:17:05. > :17:13.You could write a whole book on this, I know you have. There is a
:17:13. > :17:23.plug! Now the lunchtime news with Gillian smart. Margaret Curran will
:17:23. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:30.use her speech in Dundee to the Labour conference -- target the
:17:30. > :17:35.Labour conference. Where is Michael Moore? He is missing in action. He
:17:35. > :17:40.is hands-on when it comes to welfare cuts. Love can be 8,000
:17:40. > :17:46.disabled children who will lose their benefits. He has been sitting
:17:46. > :17:50.with the Tories and it is just not acceptable. Willie Rennie has told
:17:50. > :17:58.the Lib Dem conference he is prepared to work with the SNP to
:17:58. > :18:04.deliver more Holyrood powers but only after the 'no' vote on
:18:04. > :18:10.Scottish Independence. It may be that after the 'no' vote the SNP
:18:10. > :18:19.can survive the ending of their dream. We and we could well be able
:18:19. > :18:24.to work together afterwards to shape the future for Scotland. Does
:18:24. > :18:34.welcome noises we have heard recently from Labour will need to
:18:34. > :18:35.
:18:35. > :18:43.be nurtured as well. There were allegations in the Sunday newspaper
:18:44. > :18:46.against Bill Walker over allegations of domestic violence.
:18:46. > :18:52.Police forces say they have received a number of calls
:18:53. > :18:59.reporting what is believed to be a meteor. Reports of a bright light
:18:59. > :19:05.with an orange grove came in in the north of Scotland amid fears that a
:19:05. > :19:09.plane had crashed. Now the weather forecast. It is a West/East split
:19:09. > :19:13.in terms of the weather with the band of rain, sleet and snow
:19:13. > :19:19.finally cleaning from the North Sea coast. There will be sunny spells
:19:19. > :19:26.and wintry showers in the West. Temperatures around seven Celsius.
:19:26. > :19:30.It will be a cold night tonight. Tomorrow will be brighter generally.
:19:31. > :19:37.Probably the best day of the week as it is turning unsettled. That is
:19:37. > :19:43.all for now. Back to Isabel. In a moment we will be discussing the
:19:43. > :19:53.big events in Holyrood but firstly a more detailed look back at the
:19:53. > :19:56.
:19:56. > :20:06.week in 60 seconds. De devo plus campaign called for a substantial
:20:06. > :20:11.
:20:11. > :20:17.increase in powers for Holyrood. In a statement to Parliament Kenny
:20:17. > :20:22.MacAskill denied allegations about the release of Abdelbaset al-
:20:22. > :20:27.Megrahi. I did not suggest to anyone connected with the Libyan
:20:27. > :20:32.Government ought to Mr al-Megrahi himself that abandoning his appeal
:20:32. > :20:38.against conviction would in any way eat or affect his application for
:20:38. > :20:47.compassionate release. The Fraser of Alan institute predicted one in
:20:47. > :20:52.10 people would be out of a job by the end of the year. This man
:20:52. > :21:02.admitted posting a picture of Neil Lennon covered in bullet wins on a
:21:02. > :21:04.
:21:04. > :21:11.social networking site. And now a new season of political conferences
:21:11. > :21:16.will stop --.. I am joined by the Labour political blogger, Ian Smart.
:21:16. > :21:21.And that the Liberal Democrat the Scottish Lib Dem blogger, Karen
:21:21. > :21:26.Lindsay. Thank you for joining us. Do you think all has been forgiven
:21:26. > :21:31.and forgotten when Nick Clegg walks through the doors at Inverness?
:21:31. > :21:36.There was nothing to forgive him for. He has led our party into
:21:36. > :21:42.Government. He is delivering so many of our manifesto promises. He
:21:42. > :21:48.has cut taxes for people on low and middle incomes. He is putting �60
:21:48. > :21:52.per month back in people's pockets. I think what I would say about that
:21:52. > :21:59.is that we need to find another way, people do not feel particularly
:21:59. > :22:03.rich, but we need to say we pay people's council tax on a couple of
:22:03. > :22:09.months, fill their car for five times. We have given the biggest
:22:09. > :22:15.cash rise in State pension this year. Nick Clegg has been
:22:16. > :22:21.absolutely fantastic. Accepting that you feel that perhaps the
:22:21. > :22:26.message has not gone out as you would like. I do not want to dwell
:22:26. > :22:31.on this but Tavish Scott the former leader had said that Nick Clegg's
:22:31. > :22:35.decision on tuition fees had dried the party into gutter politics.
:22:35. > :22:39.Other members indicated the coalition came at the wrong time
:22:39. > :22:43.for the party going into the Holyrood election. Are you really
:22:43. > :22:48.saying, I think Nick Clegg even in our interview said people were very
:22:48. > :22:53.angry at some of the choices that had to be made. I think that is
:22:53. > :22:57.right. The fact that we inherited such a mess from Labour. If the
:22:57. > :23:01.coalition Government had not taken the action that it had an hour
:23:01. > :23:06.credit rating would have gone, you have seen what has happened in
:23:06. > :23:11.Greece and Spain, we would have bigger deficits than they had. It
:23:11. > :23:16.has been a very, very difficult time. We have had to make difficult
:23:17. > :23:21.decisions. In some ways we are used to that. Lib Dems have taken power
:23:21. > :23:28.in places like Aberdeen and Edinburgh. Labour had left the
:23:28. > :23:33.chronic financial mess. Now Audit Scotland are seeing what a good job
:23:34. > :23:42.has been done in putting the councils on a surer financial
:23:42. > :23:48.footing. Ian, what did Johann Lamont have to do and did she do
:23:48. > :23:52.it? She had to survive and she did. She made a joke about the big
:23:52. > :23:58.beasts or men, do you think there is too much testosterone floating
:23:58. > :24:02.about the debate at the moment? I think there is not enough
:24:02. > :24:07.discussion at the moment. What she had to do was present herself as a
:24:07. > :24:12.credible alternative First Minister. How far do you think the party has
:24:12. > :24:18.to go in getting that image across and also interestingly, what Labour
:24:18. > :24:23.have been trying to do, linking Scottish identity with UK identity,
:24:23. > :24:29.is that an important path than they have to go now? I think the party
:24:29. > :24:32.is trying to find its way slowly to the right position on the national
:24:32. > :24:37.question. The interesting speech was the Douglas Alexander's speech
:24:37. > :24:42.on the Friday which I think did open up the serious in a more
:24:42. > :24:46.worthwhile way. I think what Johann Lamont is on her way to do is to
:24:46. > :24:50.establish herself as a credible leader of the opposition. I think
:24:51. > :24:57.she has a long way to go to establish herself as a credible
:24:57. > :25:02.First Minister. Douglas Alexander was trying to be more radical.
:25:02. > :25:07.Johann Lamont says she is coming up with more radical solutions.
:25:07. > :25:15.think that is dishonest. There are differing opinions. I am more on
:25:15. > :25:20.the Douglas -- Danny Alexander side of the argument. Gordon Brown will
:25:20. > :25:26.be involved in this campaign and Alistair Darling will be involved
:25:26. > :25:30.in Labour's Campaign. How important do you think it is that there is
:25:30. > :25:36.some cross-party co-operation now or do you think, and I am asking
:25:36. > :25:41.you this as a Lib Dem, is that a good or a bad thing if Gordon Brown
:25:41. > :25:47.appears on the platform with David Cameron? I think that it is
:25:47. > :25:52.important that we hear voices from across the political spectrum in
:25:52. > :25:54.this independence referendum debate. What I thought was fantastic
:25:54. > :26:01.yesterday was travels Kennedy on the platform here saying he would
:26:01. > :26:06.live for the family -- the party in the know to independence campaign.
:26:07. > :26:12.Willie Rennie said this morning we have got such a long record on home
:26:12. > :26:17.rule. If we can encourage those sorts of feelings and other parties
:26:17. > :26:25.work with other politicians to develop a home rule solution for
:26:26. > :26:32.Scotland which I think most people would actually want. What do you
:26:32. > :26:36.think of some of these policy areas that Johann Lamont has brought up,
:26:36. > :26:40.be the sound familiar? I've got the best bet of her speech was when she
:26:40. > :26:44.was talking about the policies we could usefully be pursuing, policy
:26:44. > :26:49.choices we would have made differently. The point she made
:26:49. > :26:55.about the future of higher education expenditure was a very
:26:55. > :27:02.well made. And the idea that we are getting this no tuition fees policy
:27:02. > :27:08.on a cost fee basis is actually meaning people in further education
:27:08. > :27:15.are paying for free higher education. And what she was seeing
:27:15. > :27:25.on income taxes? How realistic that is. It seems to be her response.
:27:25. > :27:34.
:27:34. > :27:38.Whatever the party line, that seems I do concede that. She is arguing
:27:38. > :27:42.for increased expenditure. She is silent on the second half of the
:27:42. > :27:45.equation. Adding part of the problem that Labour has got at the
:27:45. > :27:49.moment is that they do not make the distinction between better public
:27:49. > :27:58.services and more expensive public services. We have to be on the side
:27:58. > :28:05.of better public services. Do you have any sense that the Lib Dems
:28:05. > :28:11.have done enough to motivate the grass roots? Absolutely it. It has
:28:11. > :28:15.been a lot of work and it has been going on for many months. Lib Dems
:28:15. > :28:25.campaign all year round. There is an amazing sense of optimism around
:28:25. > :28:29.
:28:29. > :28:33.here. Long-term optimism. Liberal youth had the most successful fund-
:28:33. > :28:37.raising event ever. I have been setting up a mentoring programme.
:28:37. > :28:45.We have seen it new people coming into the party, talented people,
:28:45. > :28:55.and I look forward to working with them. Candidate selection. Johann
:28:55. > :28:59.
:28:59. > :29:03.Lamont says that has to be looked at. Yes, I hope so. They do not
:29:03. > :29:10.bring you on here to be discreet. We need to have a better diversity