:00:41. > :00:47.Good afternoon. This is the Sunday politics. The Budget that keeps on
:00:47. > :00:52.giving but not in a good way. After granny tax, the charity tax engulfs
:00:52. > :01:00.the Government. How much damage is being done to the Tories' chances
:01:00. > :01:06.in next month's local elections? Grant Shapps joins us for the
:01:06. > :01:12.Sunday interview. We go to Sweden where when it comes
:01:12. > :01:16.to tax, the let it all hang out. Should we follow suit and make tax
:01:16. > :01:23.returns public? The argument for a full financial disclosure gathers
:01:23. > :01:26.pace. And on Sunday Politics Scotland,
:01:26. > :01:29.the finance secretary says charities are going to be hit hard
:01:29. > :01:30.over tax relief on donations. And are bus companies taking us for a
:01:30. > :01:40.ride? Profitable companies, government
:01:40. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :26:44.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1503 seconds
:26:44. > :26:47.subsidies - set against cuts in If you think everybody's tax
:26:47. > :26:54.returns should be public, should it also be public how much everyone
:26:54. > :26:58.receives and benefits? I think it probably should be. There is a
:26:58. > :27:06.significant argument for that as well. That would be more difficult
:27:06. > :27:14.to enforce. You would have to get round a large number of different
:27:14. > :27:19.agencies in order to get them published. It is very un-English.
:27:19. > :27:27.We are very private about her money in this country. You mean it is not
:27:27. > :27:33.an Scottish a run Welsh? I think it is something we regard as being a
:27:33. > :27:39.very private matter and a culture is completely antithetical. This
:27:39. > :27:46.leads a fairly private as well but, despite all their suggestions of
:27:46. > :27:53.public nudity there. I think that they are not as envious as we
:27:53. > :27:57.imagine we are. Our real problem is not about privacy but of those
:27:57. > :28:03.who'd do it well being worried about becoming the envious targets
:28:03. > :28:07.of our neighbours. There was a time not that long ago, less than 15
:28:07. > :28:16.years ago, when a lot of politicians said where we get the
:28:16. > :28:20.money from as a political party should be up private matter. No one
:28:20. > :28:23.believes in that argument now and are you not fighting the tide here,
:28:23. > :28:28.that in the future we should see their tax returns of a
:28:28. > :28:33.politician's? It may well be that the argument I am making it is
:28:33. > :28:39.going to lose because the MoD is demanding more and more. This is
:28:39. > :28:43.mob rule, demanding to know every detail about the leaders. We have
:28:43. > :28:48.got a dearth of talent in British politics in terms of their
:28:48. > :28:54.experience of life. I would like to see better people and politics and
:28:54. > :29:04.the less intrusion we have... say it is part of being a citizen
:29:04. > :29:05.
:29:05. > :29:09.of this country. If I maintain that I am resident and domiciled in
:29:09. > :29:14.Britain and some as a tax return every year, why is that not enough?
:29:14. > :29:19.Let's take the case that this has emerged from. Ken Livingstone had a
:29:19. > :29:23.blast it people who he says are not paying as much tax as they should.
:29:24. > :29:29.It is then discovered that he himself is doing it. People's
:29:29. > :29:33.reaction to this is not daft about hypocrisy but about whether or not
:29:33. > :29:38.you pay your dues and a way that I understand you are fulfilling your
:29:38. > :29:45.duties as a citizen. It is applicable to everybody. 58% of
:29:45. > :29:49.people in a recent poll said that tax returns should be made public.
:29:49. > :29:56.Is it true these rumours we're reading that some Conservative MPs
:29:56. > :30:00.are in discussion with UKIP? Over the last year the chief whip of the
:30:00. > :30:05.House of Lords has joined UKIP and if the party continues to grow and
:30:05. > :30:09.looks to be becoming a good bet, more will join. Are you having
:30:09. > :30:15.discussions? In politics, you have discussions with people all the
:30:15. > :30:25.time. I think that's I yes. Can you give us the names of the Tory MPs?
:30:25. > :30:25.
:30:25. > :30:28.Not yet. It is approaching 12:30pm. Good afternoon and welcome to
:30:28. > :30:31.Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme. We are on the
:30:31. > :30:36.buses as a funding row cuts services, increases fares and puts
:30:36. > :30:38.concessionary travel in the spotlight. Unless Westminster does
:30:39. > :30:45.a handbrake turn on capping charity donations how will Scottish
:30:45. > :30:50.projects be affected? Is there a shift in the SNP stance - no to
:30:50. > :30:53.Nuclear but is it still a no to NATO? On the super-sensitive
:30:53. > :31:03.territory of same sex marriage, we are just weeks away from a Scottish
:31:03. > :31:04.
:31:04. > :31:07.Our bus services seem to be heading down a difficult road - cuts in
:31:07. > :31:10.routes, hikes in fares and threats of job losses. The bus companies
:31:10. > :31:13.insist subsidy cuts are driving them into a corner but the
:31:13. > :31:23.government isn't buying that. So if you're getting on board, what can
:31:23. > :31:28.you expect as a passenger? Kevin Keane reports.
:31:28. > :31:31.Travelling by bus in Scotland has never been more expensive. Here in
:31:31. > :31:37.Aberdeen, both the major bus companies have recently seen the
:31:38. > :31:44.affairs arise. The biggest operator saw them increase in January by up
:31:44. > :31:52.to 13 1/2 per cent. The other big operators here, Stagecoach,
:31:52. > :32:00.increase fares by a 7.7 per cent. Fares are rising across Scotland.
:32:00. > :32:07.Stagecoach shares in Aberdeen have increased by nearly 10%. If you're
:32:07. > :32:12.travelling in Glasgow, and you will have seen Europe price rise by 27%.
:32:12. > :32:19.Operators say they are being hit hard. Private companies need profit
:32:19. > :32:24.and if overheads rise, fares rise. People are being hit by a Perfect
:32:24. > :32:27.Storm at the moment. There seemed a drop in passenger numbers and a
:32:27. > :32:31.rise in fuel prices and the companies are responding to that by
:32:31. > :32:37.trying to keep their profitability levels by increasing fares and
:32:37. > :32:41.often cutting routes. One of the biggest hits has been in the amount
:32:41. > :32:45.they are paid to operate services. The government's total subsidy to
:32:45. > :32:51.bus companies last year was more than a quarter of a billion pounds.
:32:51. > :32:54.A large chunk of that was through concessionary travel. 66.5 million
:32:54. > :33:04.came through the bus service operators grand, and that has been
:33:04. > :33:06.
:33:06. > :33:10.cut by 17%. -- grant. It is ultimately the passengers who pay
:33:10. > :33:20.and their feeling the effects and Aberdeen. It is expensive for me
:33:20. > :33:22.
:33:22. > :33:31.every day. It used to be �45 for me and now it is �50. I AM a pensioner
:33:31. > :33:34.and we don't pay. I think it is terrible for families. Cracking the
:33:34. > :33:38.public transport map has proven difficult for success of Gullit.
:33:38. > :33:47.Two of the biggest operators each make profits of �250 million for a
:33:47. > :33:53.bus services. A cut in government subsidy is unlikely to put them in
:33:53. > :33:59.the red. There is then a more radical approach. Whatever party is
:33:59. > :34:02.the principal opposition calls for regulation. The party and
:34:02. > :34:07.government says they want. That will not change until passengers a
:34:07. > :34:10.more powerful and speaking with a stronger voice. Motorists are well
:34:10. > :34:14.represented in the political system and bus passengers are largely
:34:14. > :34:17.ignored. With me in the studio are three
:34:17. > :34:19.MSPs - we have Alex Neil the Minister for Capital Investment &
:34:19. > :34:24.Infrastructure, Leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats Willie
:34:24. > :34:30.Rennie, and for Labour, their transport spokesman, Richard Baker.
:34:30. > :34:36.Thank you all for coming in. Alex Neil, if we start with the it cut
:34:36. > :34:42.in subsidy to bus operators, why are you doing that? Over the last
:34:42. > :34:45.two years, we have seen a 43% increase in fuel costs and we are
:34:45. > :34:50.reforming the whole system to encourage bus operators to be more
:34:50. > :34:55.fuel-efficient. We're trying to make the system fairer. Many rural
:34:55. > :34:58.communities were not getting a fair chunk of the subsidy before so we
:34:58. > :35:02.have rearranged and reformed the subsidy and such a way that it
:35:02. > :35:06.tells rural communities. If you look at the total picture including
:35:06. > :35:11.concessionary fares, we have tried to make it fairer by extending
:35:11. > :35:18.concessionary fares to disabled veterans and their dial-up bus
:35:18. > :35:23.service. The bus operators are arguing that you are now basing
:35:23. > :35:28.your subsidy not on fuel costs but a mileage at which is a
:35:28. > :35:31.disadvantage to them, and they are getting 20% less. Given that you
:35:31. > :35:36.have said you have done all of this to improve the service, can you
:35:36. > :35:43.really justify these cuts? They're not getting 20% less because
:35:43. > :35:47.looking at the totality of what we are spending, we announced a �6
:35:47. > :35:53.million Green Bus Fund. We have announced a transition from the
:35:53. > :35:57.subsidy that wars and the subsidy as reformed. Why are they are
:35:57. > :36:01.laying off people and say they cannot maintain the services?
:36:01. > :36:09.is only one group that has a significant redundancy level and
:36:09. > :36:16.that is the First Bus Group. For a start, First has made it clear to
:36:16. > :36:26.me that there cut in the bus services grant was a key issue.
:36:26. > :36:26.
:36:26. > :36:30.This cut in grant has resulted in these fare increases. This decision
:36:30. > :36:33.for a while lies with Alex Neil. He has made a decision which is
:36:33. > :36:39.directly meant affairs going up for those who can afford these
:36:39. > :36:47.increases least. People who use buses do not have cars and July and
:36:47. > :36:50.the services to get to work, often on lower incomes. Looking at the
:36:50. > :36:57.First group operating profits for the year ending March this year,
:36:57. > :37:02.pre-tax profits of �456 million. Those a sizable profits butter lot
:37:02. > :37:07.of that will be from the ScotRail franchise. Buses tend to work on
:37:07. > :37:12.tighter margins. I would like to see greater regulation of the bus
:37:12. > :37:17.industries. Alex Neil opposed is greater accountability between bus
:37:17. > :37:21.companies and the passengers they serve. Passengers have a reasonable
:37:21. > :37:25.point because services cannot be run on the same level at the same
:37:25. > :37:28.fares if they are facing a 20 per as it cut in the fuel rebate they
:37:28. > :37:33.get from the government, which has been a long-standing subsidy for
:37:33. > :37:43.the industry from the government. That is what is really hurting
:37:43. > :37:43.
:37:43. > :37:46.passengers hard. This is that -- is a decision made by AlexThe SNP.
:37:46. > :37:52.they have misjudged the situation. They were advised by the bus
:37:52. > :37:57.companies that there would be fare rises and service cuts. Three
:37:57. > :38:04.months ago, they decided to charge ahead regardless of that warning
:38:04. > :38:09.forced up they have missed that that situation badly. We need a
:38:09. > :38:14.solution to this problem. It is chaos out there and services have
:38:14. > :38:18.been slashed. Bus users are furious about this. Where will the funding
:38:18. > :38:23.come from? Extra money has been received by the coalition
:38:23. > :38:27.government in Westminster, about �9 million this year and �7 million
:38:27. > :38:36.next year. That would goal long way to deal with the problems Alex Neil
:38:36. > :38:42.has created. If we're going to meet Climate Change targets and reverse
:38:42. > :38:47.the decline in bus usage, this money has to go back in. Would you
:38:47. > :38:50.be looking at changing concessionary fare rules?
:38:50. > :38:53.recommended that at a last election because finances are tight and
:38:53. > :38:58.there are a lot of working people in the Sixties were getting free
:38:58. > :39:04.bus travel have to work. We reckon we should look at the 60-65 year
:39:04. > :39:08.olds and see whether they should continue to get that. You would
:39:08. > :39:16.maintain it for veterans and disabled people? Those changes
:39:16. > :39:22.introduced a good steps. His policy is to rob the pensioners of the
:39:22. > :39:24.concessionary fare. We will not do that. We will look after pensioners
:39:24. > :39:32.and make sure that the concessionary fare goes to those in
:39:32. > :39:36.need, rather than unnecessarily subsidise companies also up if I
:39:36. > :39:45.may say so, none of them have said what they would cut to pay for the
:39:45. > :39:49.increased subsidy to the bus operators. I have, Alex. Any time
:39:50. > :39:55.you mention consequential, they talk about more money for colleges,
:39:55. > :39:58.schools, universities, but they never tell us how they will do that.
:39:59. > :40:01.Can I just allow you to come back on that but establish that what
:40:01. > :40:09.you're saying is that the bus companies can afford to absorb
:40:09. > :40:12.this? They're not have there been a great deal. But they can afford it?
:40:12. > :40:18.75% of the bus companies will actually be better offer have
:40:18. > :40:23.exactly the same subsidies as before. Other bus companies
:40:23. > :40:28.profiteering? I am not saying profiteering but if you take the
:40:29. > :40:36.three big bus companies of Scotland, they're taking profits of between
:40:36. > :40:41.350 in �400 million a year. We are quite keen to make sure that we use
:40:41. > :40:47.our money to send advise them to do two things. To incentive buys them
:40:47. > :40:57.to use their fuel more efficiently because feel is going up. Willie
:40:57. > :41:03.
:41:03. > :41:12.Rennie's government is pitting feel up again on that 1st August. --
:41:12. > :41:18.oputting fuek up. Looking at the total picture, in the old system,
:41:18. > :41:22.the encouragement was to have a feel any fish and buses. We are
:41:22. > :41:26.making it fair for or rural areas. You're saying no price hikes are no
:41:26. > :41:32.job cuts? To get this in perspective, last year, bus fares
:41:32. > :41:38.and Scotland rose by 2.1 per cent compared to 4.8 per cent south of
:41:38. > :41:43.the border. They have slashed the subsidy says the border far more
:41:43. > :41:47.than any company will suffer in terms of the Cup in Scotland.
:41:47. > :41:53.south, the consultation with the bus companies was extensive, over
:41:53. > :41:59.18 months. We do not have the chaos you have created a peer. Services
:41:59. > :42:03.have been slashed and fares have risen. What sort of regulation
:42:03. > :42:06.would have a practical impact on that? Presumably, so much and this
:42:06. > :42:12.will be determined by what the bus companies decide is a profitable
:42:12. > :42:15.margin. We want to see quality partnerships and Quality Contracts,
:42:15. > :42:22.which have started up but there is far too few of them as Scotland was
:42:22. > :42:26.up that would provide greater accountability in Scotland. In
:42:26. > :42:30.terms of that the credibility, that will be important, but sticking to
:42:30. > :42:34.the issue affairs, which is what we're talking about today, at the
:42:34. > :42:38.end of the day it comes down to funding. People who are paying
:42:38. > :42:42.through the nose today will not be impressed by this charade of the
:42:42. > :42:47.shoulder of response from Alex Neil. It is his decision to cut that
:42:47. > :42:57.important fuel rebate which has resulted in the pay increases. At
:42:57. > :42:57.
:42:57. > :44:03.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1503 seconds
:44:03. > :44:11.this moment in time, that is the Can I just ask a question to
:44:11. > :44:15.clarify...? If you are coming into this argument and we have known the
:44:15. > :44:18.numbers for some time, with the argument had been more plausible
:44:18. > :44:23.and coherent if he could specifically identify where you
:44:23. > :44:26.would say that money. If there is chaos out there and people are
:44:26. > :44:36.genuinely concerned, why be not have a detailed idea where you
:44:36. > :44:40.
:44:40. > :44:43.would say that money? He is right to identify the fact their
:44:43. > :44:53.consequential. You would not recommend looking at concessionary
:44:53. > :44:54.
:44:54. > :45:03.fares? We went into the election pledging to retain this. We have
:45:03. > :45:06.actually extended the concessionary... Willie Rennie, is
:45:06. > :45:11.it right to extend this at a time when other communities could be
:45:11. > :45:14.affected by this, as we have heard from people on the buses? It was
:45:14. > :45:22.right to extend it but Alex Neil should have manage the situation
:45:22. > :45:30.better. Richard Baker can tell us how we would fund these additional
:45:30. > :45:34.subsidies for bus companies. there anywhere told... We are
:45:34. > :45:39.almost out of time and we're covered all this ground. Will you
:45:39. > :45:45.look at this again? Is there any way you will sit back and say we
:45:45. > :45:50.did not expect... There are constant discussions with the bus
:45:51. > :45:57.operators and we have agreed a way forward including bus partnerships
:45:57. > :46:02.and on the Budget. The reality is we have agreement because they know
:46:02. > :46:05.what we're doing is sensible and we can pay for it. There being totally
:46:05. > :46:10.dishonest and their policy is to rob the pensioner to pay their
:46:10. > :46:13.company more profits. We're out of time.
:46:13. > :46:15.Pressure is mounting on the Westminster government to change
:46:15. > :46:18.its controversial plan to cap charity donations. The chancellor
:46:18. > :46:22.said he was astonished to find unlimited donations could be used
:46:22. > :46:25.for tax dodging. So as George Osbourne insults genuine
:46:25. > :46:27.philanthropists and alarms the rest of us with his seeming lack of
:46:28. > :46:37.prior knowledge about tax avoidance scams - the finance secretary John
:46:37. > :46:43.Swinney is among those today telling him to rethink.
:46:43. > :46:46.The Chancellor's well-understood attempts to clamp down on tax
:46:46. > :46:51.avoidance have actually had the perverse effect of creating a
:46:51. > :46:54.disincentive around people donating to charity. Charitable giving is up
:46:54. > :46:57.very important part of strengthening long-term investment
:46:57. > :47:00.in good causes in Scotland. Joining us now from Edinburgh is Dr
:47:00. > :47:08.Alison Elliot - the convenor of the Scottish Council for Voluntary
:47:08. > :47:11.Organisations. Thank you for coming What you think could be the effect
:47:12. > :47:16.in Scotland in particular? Do we have a lot of large donors and
:47:17. > :47:25.Scotland? Not as many as down south but there are some considerable
:47:25. > :47:35.once here. Not only in terms of large donations that we hear about,
:47:35. > :47:35.
:47:35. > :47:37.but also the various charitable trusts which make a wide range of
:47:37. > :47:43.charitable nations to Scotland including small donations to small
:47:43. > :47:48.charities. Some are putting money into core funding which is
:47:48. > :47:56.particularly important in terms of sustaining services, as opposed the
:47:56. > :48:04.project funding. Charitable trusts are likely, more likely to give
:48:05. > :48:13.money to keep charities moving and keep them going. I think that it is
:48:13. > :48:16.very important for the charities of Scotland that these high net worth
:48:16. > :48:23.individuals are taken seriously. Why do you think the government
:48:23. > :48:32.came up with this? I do not know. I cannot believe that we spend a lot
:48:32. > :48:36.of time thinking about it. I think they are concerned to come down on
:48:36. > :48:41.tax avoidance, which no one would deny it is an important thing to do,
:48:41. > :48:46.then there are other ways of doing it. I think it is a lazy policy and
:48:46. > :48:51.just the way of trying to catch a whole lot of people in the next and
:48:51. > :48:58.it should be designed more work precisely for a few individuals.
:48:58. > :49:03.What sort of image does it get out or create in the public mind?
:49:03. > :49:08.think it is very detrimental. We can speculate about how much money
:49:08. > :49:12.Mater may not be lost through this scheme. What we do not is the
:49:12. > :49:17.message step has been given it is the idea that giving to charity is
:49:17. > :49:23.avoiding tax. I know from trying to persuade people that it is often
:49:23. > :49:28.quite difficult to persuade them that gift Aid as an OK thing to do.
:49:28. > :49:32.The already see that as cheating tax. If the Government essaying
:49:32. > :49:36.that giving to charity is part of avoiding paying taxes, then it is
:49:36. > :49:45.going to have a knock-on effect on people who are giving modest
:49:45. > :49:49.donations regularly to small charities. Tax relief would almost
:49:49. > :49:56.suggest that the state recognises the role of voluntary sector and
:49:56. > :50:01.charities and providing essential services. There seems to be a a
:50:01. > :50:07.problem and thinking there? I have always been fascinated with the
:50:07. > :50:12.principles that underline Get paid. What the government is saying that
:50:12. > :50:20.giving money to charity is not the same are spending it elsewhere. In
:50:20. > :50:24.some way, it is helping the state do its job. That is thinking that
:50:24. > :50:28.is becoming mainline that in policy thinking in terms of the Scottish
:50:28. > :50:33.government and also down south. I was on the Christie Commission
:50:33. > :50:37.which were looking at the a former public services. One of the things
:50:37. > :50:41.that was fundamental there was understanding that we have to
:50:41. > :50:45.reduce the demand on public services. Public services cannot
:50:45. > :50:49.cope with the current level of demand. One of the ways you reduce
:50:50. > :50:52.demand is by keeping people out of hospital and out of prison and
:50:52. > :51:00.keeping communities strong and vibrant and interesting places to
:51:00. > :51:08.be. The sector generally acknowledged as doing that very
:51:08. > :51:12.well is the voluntary sector. This is an essential part of Scotland
:51:12. > :51:16.being able to provide the public services which a dignified and
:51:16. > :51:19.deserving of this country. A thank you for that.
:51:19. > :51:22.The BBC has learned that the SNP leadership is considering proposing
:51:22. > :51:26.a change to the party's policy on NATO at the next meeting of their
:51:26. > :51:29.National Council in June. But with many in the SNP still wedded to the
:51:29. > :51:39.goal of a nuclear-free Scotland outside the alliance, do they have
:51:39. > :51:39.
:51:39. > :51:45.a fight on their hands? Niall O'Gallagher reports.
:51:45. > :51:48.Withdrawal from NATO has been the SNP position for more than 30 years.
:51:48. > :51:52.Sources have told us that the party leadership is considering a change
:51:52. > :51:58.in policy with a move due in a matter of weeks. The next meeting
:51:58. > :52:02.of the party's national council in June is expected to discuss whether
:52:02. > :52:09.Scotland could stay in NATO while keeping the SNP commitment to get
:52:09. > :52:18.rid of nuclear weapons. Recent academic research has suggested
:52:18. > :52:23.such a proposal could get a welcome from the party membership. The
:52:23. > :52:28.strength of feeling on this is not great. Very few of the SNP's
:52:28. > :52:32.members see this as a matter of greater urgency a great importance.
:52:32. > :52:37.For some in the party, opposition to NATO membership is a defining
:52:37. > :52:41.issue. In a motion to mark the anniversary of the alliance,
:52:41. > :52:46.nationalist MP Jamie Hepburn said that NATO was to destabilise the
:52:46. > :52:51.scene -- destabilising factor in the West's relationship with Europe
:52:51. > :52:56.-- Russia and it serves no useful purpose in the modern world.
:52:56. > :53:03.Of those that supported the motion, two are ministers in the current
:53:03. > :53:08.Scottish government. The SNP is changing. An increase in members
:53:08. > :53:16.since the last election victory suggests the balance is shifting.
:53:16. > :53:21.The SNP promised Stirling Council that... Anti-nuclear campaigners
:53:21. > :53:28.have called on those proposing the change to step back from the brink
:53:28. > :53:34.and continuing the current policy They have built up an honourable
:53:34. > :53:40.position against nuclear weapons. That is because they are weapons of
:53:40. > :53:47.indiscriminate mass annihilation. If they go and change their policy
:53:47. > :53:52.which is a relic of the Cold War, the central plank is nuclear policy,
:53:52. > :53:57.they seriously undermine their position. Abandoning plans to leave
:53:57. > :54:04.NATO could make it easier for the SNP to persuade those concerned
:54:04. > :54:10.about defence to vote for independence. Scotland have voted
:54:10. > :54:16.Aith MP and devoted in big numbers. It did so it because it wanted to
:54:16. > :54:21.be left of centre. -- SMP. It was not interested in the London wars.
:54:21. > :54:27.There has been an enormous amount of goodwill from people on the left
:54:27. > :54:32.of the SNP. We are now seeing what is happening here. Tomorrow, the UK
:54:32. > :54:37.will conduct an exercise with NATO allies on the Clyde. With a
:54:37. > :54:41.Scottish forces will continue to take part is an issue. The result
:54:41. > :54:46.of that debate could be an important factor in deciding
:54:46. > :54:51.whether Scots vote to pursue a foreign defence policy in the years
:54:51. > :55:01.to come. With me, the former SNP special
:55:01. > :55:02.
:55:02. > :55:05.adviser. Thank you for coming in. If we except that the idea they are
:55:05. > :55:11.considering putting to the membership of the SNP should stay
:55:11. > :55:21.in NATO and get rid of nuclear weapons, would staying in NATO be
:55:21. > :55:28.something acceptable to the majority of SNP members?
:55:28. > :55:32.referred to to the surprise of some people that there was a concern you
:55:32. > :55:38.needed to say certain things and keep the membership happy. Were the
:55:38. > :55:41.membership is more pragmatic than sometimes people in the leadership
:55:41. > :55:46.think. The membership is not pragmatic about nuclear weapons,
:55:46. > :55:52.though. There is no doubt in my mind, the SNP, even though this is
:55:52. > :55:58.the discussion, there is no doubt in my mind if this compromised the
:55:58. > :56:02.SNP's Anglia -- anti-nuclear stand, it would not be countenanced. As
:56:02. > :56:06.well as them being hostile to nuclear weapons, it wants to be
:56:06. > :56:11.international. They wants to join things. If they can join
:56:11. > :56:17.international community's, if they can engage in international
:56:17. > :56:21.corporation without doing anything to overturn the SMP's anti-nuclear
:56:21. > :56:27.stance, they will consider that. There will be an argument it was
:56:27. > :56:32.the fact they were unequivocal on nuclear, they said no to nuclear
:56:32. > :56:38.weapons on Scottish soil and said no to supporting native. That to go
:56:38. > :56:43.votes from the left. They could lose a those votes. The anti-
:56:43. > :56:53.nuclear stance is part of their DNA. If there was any suggestion from
:56:53. > :56:53.
:56:53. > :56:56.the newest member to Alex Salmond, there is no clear position on that.
:56:56. > :57:05.What you're saying is the research suggests for most members, the
:57:05. > :57:09.distinction is not NATO, it is about nuclear. We do not have a
:57:09. > :57:13.huge amount of time. I am sorry. We are talking about why the
:57:13. > :57:19.leadership would be interested in doing that. May they see themselves
:57:19. > :57:24.as vulnerable on defence? If they say, we will stay in NATO, that
:57:24. > :57:30.would be attractive to a wide audience. I think the point about
:57:30. > :57:40.defence is, you say do the if MP feel vulnerable. That is a pretty
:57:40. > :57:41.
:57:41. > :57:46.ropey attack. -- best MP. They cannot have an independent defence
:57:46. > :57:52.policy. The main fizzing is, in terms of their stance, they want to
:57:52. > :57:58.operate, they are keen on EU membership. -- will operate. They
:57:58. > :58:03.are going to investigate that. People are talking about the left.
:58:03. > :58:10.Norway is the country that is held up as part of the social democratic
:58:10. > :58:13.aspiration the Scotland should be looking at. They are in NATO. There
:58:14. > :58:19.is nothing to say because you worry left-wing government, you cannot be
:58:19. > :58:26.in NATO. That will form part of the discussions going on at the moment.
:58:27. > :58:36.If you inherit treaty obligations post independence, could use not
:58:37. > :58:37.
:58:37. > :58:44.saying they do? -- could you not stay. In NATO. Everyone is
:58:44. > :58:47.concerned about the and D nuclear stance. Thank you. A group of
:58:47. > :58:52.Catholic laymen are the latest to join the debate about legislating
:58:52. > :58:57.for same-sex marriage in church. They gave the Deputy First Minister
:58:57. > :59:04.a petition opposing the proposal. More than 50,000 responses to the
:59:04. > :59:08.Scottish government's consultation huh being considered.
:59:08. > :59:12.Yesterday, these representatives were the latest to get involved in
:59:12. > :59:19.this debate. They handed over a petition of around 1,000 signatures
:59:19. > :59:24.to their local MSP who also speaks for the Cabinet on this issue. They
:59:24. > :59:31.say they gather the signatures from five Catholic churches. We do not
:59:31. > :59:36.see any reason for a change in the law. Marriage, the sanctity of
:59:36. > :59:44.marriage, it is one of the fantasies of the Catholic Church.
:59:44. > :59:48.The Catholic Church and the Muslim church -- Muslim community are key
:59:48. > :59:53.voices. If they oppose the redefinition of marriage. Some say
:59:53. > :59:57.yes to the proposal. At the moment, say that sex couples have the same
:59:57. > :00:00.legal rights. The new law would allow them to get married in a
:00:00. > :00:05.judge or a religious premises. Initially, ministers wanted to
:00:05. > :00:10.support the changes. There consultation lasted 14 weeks and
:00:10. > :00:13.the received over 50,000 responses. It is the third largest response
:00:13. > :00:17.they have ever had to a consultation. No decisions have
:00:17. > :00:21.been taking, decisions will be taken in due course. As the
:00:21. > :00:25.Government has always made clear, if the decision is to legislate for
:00:26. > :00:30.same-sex marriage, there will be protections to ensure no religious
:00:30. > :00:37.group is compelled to take same-sex marriages. At Westminster, the
:00:37. > :00:40.Government wants to introduced gay marriage by a 2015. The change in
:00:40. > :00:44.the law would allow civil partnerships to be recognised as
:00:44. > :00:48.marriage. The Scottish government is expected to publish the results
:00:48. > :00:54.and make a decision on whether to take forward legislation in the
:00:54. > :00:58.coming weeks. We are joined by someone from the Catholic Church.
:00:59. > :01:04.We also as someone from the Church of Scotland. Thank you for coming.
:01:04. > :01:08.If this legislation goes through, how will that affect the sort of
:01:08. > :01:13.relationships you want your church to have with the Scottish
:01:13. > :01:19.government? I think it would be a damaging move. A effects not just
:01:19. > :01:25.Catholic and church services, it would affect society. It would
:01:26. > :01:30.impact in education and jobs. At this stage, we want to raise it as
:01:30. > :01:34.a political issue. It is because politicians really are eroding the
:01:34. > :01:41.people's basic freedoms and undermining the basic understanding
:01:41. > :01:46.of family life. When you hear that, as a Christian, who has opposing
:01:46. > :01:53.views to that, how do you think this can be resolved? Is there any
:01:53. > :01:59.way this can make people satisfied? What is there to resolve? Gay
:01:59. > :02:08.couples want to marry. No problem. There are clergy who would love to
:02:08. > :02:14.be able to do those marriages and we need a change in the civil law
:02:14. > :02:20.to make it OK for gay couples to marry, whereas in the UK, they can
:02:20. > :02:25.enter into civil partnerships. What is important to understand is no
:02:25. > :02:30.minister of any stripe is going to be forced to conduct same-sex
:02:30. > :02:35.marriages, just like no minister of any stripe currently is forced to
:02:36. > :02:40.conduct any marriage. Let us address that. Let us talk about
:02:40. > :02:44.laws and human rights. There is no compulsion on you to conduct this.
:02:44. > :02:48.Equally, there are practising Christians who are gay who would
:02:48. > :02:52.like to marry in church. You are denying them that right. There is
:02:52. > :02:55.no compulsion on you to do something but you are denying
:02:55. > :03:00.someone else something. It is a misunderstanding entirely. People
:03:00. > :03:05.are free to live their lives they want. If they want to have services,
:03:05. > :03:08.you can do what you want in your church. What you want to do is
:03:08. > :03:13.change the understanding of marriage for society. That has a
:03:13. > :03:18.huge impact. We recognise the role of a mother and father in the role
:03:18. > :03:22.of a child is crucial. This would change the law so you are not
:03:22. > :03:26.allowed to say a mother and father is the basis of family life. That
:03:26. > :03:32.is a huge change. A is an imposition on the rest of society.
:03:32. > :03:38.You're asking society to change logic. It is not about equality.
:03:38. > :03:44.This is about things that are different. Is it acceptable to say,
:03:44. > :03:48.there is a body of Catholic Church teaching of his marriage as to be
:03:48. > :03:58.about a man and woman but other churches have other opinions? Wiser
:03:58. > :03:58.
:03:58. > :04:03.not to legislate in that regard and allow this? -- why is it not.
:04:03. > :04:12.clear, I am a Presbyterian minister from America who works in this --
:04:12. > :04:20.who works in the Church of Scotland. What the Scottish legislation
:04:20. > :04:28.proposes is the freedom for same- sex couples to marry, which brings
:04:28. > :04:31.with it many legal responsibilities and commitments. They do have, the
:04:31. > :04:40.rights same sex couples have, in the terms of civil partnerships,
:04:41. > :04:46.they are the same. To give you an example, friends of mine, who, in
:04:46. > :04:50.America, had a civil partnership, they were married in a church, they
:04:50. > :04:55.did not expect it to make a big difference. And they were
:04:55. > :04:59.overwhelmed with the difference it made him their relationship which
:05:00. > :05:06.was a 20 year relationship at a point. To finally have a marriage
:05:06. > :05:12.within a church conducted by a minister made a huge difference to
:05:12. > :05:17.them. I am here to voice support for them. We do not have a huge
:05:17. > :05:21.amount of time. Can I just ask you in terms of how the Catholic Church
:05:21. > :05:25.has handled the interaction with the government, and we have had
:05:25. > :05:31.people saying, if this is allowed, it would be a grotesque subversion
:05:31. > :05:35.of Human Rights. Do you have concerns the tone has been such
:05:35. > :05:40.that you have backed the Government into a corner and they cannot
:05:40. > :05:46.afford to say they have been browbeaten by the Catholic Church?
:05:46. > :05:55.The tone has been strong. It is a robust debate. The language used by
:05:55. > :05:59.those who label people like I might myself a -- like myself as begets,
:06:00. > :06:04.human rights legislation recognise that marriage is a relationship
:06:05. > :06:09.between men and women. There is an importance to children. That is a
:06:09. > :06:19.unique relationship. Other relationships do not fulfil a role.
:06:19. > :06:23.
:06:23. > :06:27.They are not of the same interest to society. But human rights
:06:27. > :06:32.societies say it is about compromise to give concessions. Do
:06:32. > :06:38.you regret the tone that have emerged here? Do you think the tone
:06:38. > :06:44.has been damaging? What you make of the tone? I think people using
:06:44. > :06:52.their common sense can see through rhetoric. We already disagree about
:06:52. > :06:55.marriage. Some people consider it the sacrament. Some do not. Some
:06:55. > :07:05.principalities and America are, they on her common-law marriages
:07:05. > :07:06.
:07:06. > :07:11.and some do not. -- they on her. There is... We have heard the
:07:11. > :07:17.expression marriages of convenience. Those are accepted with
:07:17. > :07:22.heterosexual couples who and traditionally, marriages were about
:07:22. > :07:27.property and then about raising children. Now it is reversed.
:07:27. > :07:36.People get married for romantic reasons with, or without, children.
:07:36. > :07:42.And they end up in divorce. We do not have a uniform understanding of
:07:42. > :07:47.marriage, anyway. We are out of time. If the legislation does go
:07:47. > :07:51.ahead, what will the response be from the Catholic Church?
:07:51. > :07:56.principle is did today people. The more people look at this issue,
:07:56. > :08:00.they see the repercussions. They see this is a tyranny of a quality.
:08:00. > :08:10.You're forced to accept the morality of other people. --
:08:10. > :08:11.
:08:11. > :08:13.quality. This will be a huge change Scotland's finance secretary is
:08:13. > :08:16.warning that controversial plans to cap tax relief for charitable
:08:16. > :08:20.donations will damage the voluntary sector. The Chancellor George
:08:20. > :08:29.Osborne is coming under mounting pressure to rethink his decision.
:08:29. > :08:32.John Swinney has written to him to outline his concerns. This can
:08:32. > :08:39.create a perception that charitable giving is not well, that would be
:08:39. > :08:42.disastrous. There are hundreds of thousands of people across the
:08:42. > :08:46.country he give to charities and we should not put any obstacles are
:08:46. > :08:56.barriers in their way, or create an atmosphere which suggests that
:08:56. > :08:56.
:08:56. > :08:59.charitable giving is not. number of people on the NHS Organ
:08:59. > :09:01.Donor Register in Scotland has reached a record high of more than
:09:01. > :09:05.two million. Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon has welcomed the
:09:05. > :09:08.rise in potential donors, but says more must be done. Across the UK,
:09:08. > :09:10.three people still die every day because they don't get the organ
:09:10. > :09:13.they need in time. Around 5,000 runners from 30
:09:13. > :09:16.different countries have taken part in the first Rock n Roll half
:09:16. > :09:19.marathon to be held in the UK. Edinburgh is hosting today's event
:09:19. > :09:22.which aims to create a festival atmosphere in the city. More than
:09:22. > :09:23.20 bands played to the runners along the 13 mile route, which
:09:23. > :09:26.started and finished in Holyrood Park.
:09:26. > :09:36.The second Scottish Cup semi-final between Celtic and Hearts kicked
:09:36. > :09:43.
:09:43. > :09:51.off at Hampden Stadium a short time Showers across the north and north-
:09:51. > :09:57.east. They will be wintery of a higher ground. Generally dry and
:09:57. > :10:01.bright with highs of 10 Celsius. A little cooler in the north-east.
:10:01. > :10:10.This evening and overnight, showers die away and will be cold and
:10:10. > :10:13.frosty. That is the forecast for Our next bulletin is at 6:50pm.
:10:13. > :10:17.Now in a moment, we'll be discussing the big events coming up
:10:17. > :10:27.this week at Holyrood, but first, let's take a look back at the Week
:10:27. > :10:31.
:10:31. > :10:37.Cameras will be allowed into court when David Gilroy is sentenced for
:10:37. > :10:43.the murder. This is the first time permission has been granted to from
:10:43. > :10:49.a sentencing at a High Court. Phil Walker, an SNP MSP expelled
:10:49. > :10:55.from the party following domestic abuse allegations is staying on as
:10:55. > :11:00.an independent nationalist MSPs. Tests carried out on fish caught
:11:00. > :11:06.close to a gas leak at an Elgin oil platform has found they are not
:11:06. > :11:12.contaminated. The environmental impact appears to be minimal.
:11:12. > :11:16.evidence of any contamination a tainted hydrocarbons in any fish.
:11:16. > :11:19.250 samples were taken so we are reassured. The first extensive
:11:19. > :11:23.research on a new Schools Curriculum has suggested many
:11:23. > :11:27.teachers were anxious about its implementation but the Scottish
:11:27. > :11:31.government has said a great strides had been taken according to
:11:31. > :11:34.information taken over the last school year. Next week, politicians
:11:34. > :11:44.both North and South of the border will be returning to parliamentary
:11:44. > :11:45.
:11:45. > :11:55.With me are two seasoned political observers, Iain Macwhirter and Alex
:11:55. > :11:58.
:11:58. > :12:01.Massie. Thank you both for coming in. The
:12:01. > :12:09.argument over charitable tax donations - where will this send-
:12:09. > :12:12.up? I think it demonstrates two things. The first is that the
:12:12. > :12:21.Treasury's default presumption that every pound in Britain belongs to
:12:21. > :12:25.it. It will grudgingly allow it taxpayers to retain some of their
:12:25. > :12:30.money but in an ideal world, but regime would receive all money
:12:30. > :12:36.first and then gradually disperse some of it. The second thing is
:12:36. > :12:41.that is another political problem for the Conservatives and for a
:12:41. > :12:46.government that is friendless in the media. The Daily Mail has been
:12:46. > :12:49.hostile and the Daily Telegraph has also been hostile. This is a
:12:49. > :12:55.Conservative lead a government that is not tenable popular in the
:12:55. > :13:01.Conservative press. The more details that come out about the
:13:01. > :13:07.Chancellor's budget, you more you see it is -- the more you see here
:13:07. > :13:12.is an inveterate tinkerer. It is all far too clever by half. It is
:13:12. > :13:18.reminiscent of Gordon Brown in some respects. You have a Chancellor who
:13:18. > :13:24.has delivered at tax-raising Budget ineptly disguised as a tax cutting
:13:24. > :13:30.Budget. Once everything begins to unravel, people are increasingly
:13:30. > :13:34.aware of how many taxes are being increased. And surprisingly, this
:13:34. > :13:43.is unpopular. Where you surprised when he said he had no idea this
:13:43. > :13:46.was going on? If he didn't know, that's worrying. People from his
:13:46. > :13:51.background should know all about the ways in which charities and
:13:51. > :13:59.charitable trusts can be used. The Government is making it clear there
:13:59. > :14:03.will be concessions and this may make it even worse. There is an
:14:03. > :14:08.inequity in that if you are I donate to charity, we cannot set
:14:08. > :14:12.that against her income tax. We cannot use it to reduce their tax
:14:12. > :14:19.bill. That is the inequity. People who have more money than we do can
:14:19. > :14:29.do that. It has been used transparently as a way of reducing
:14:29. > :14:32.
:14:32. > :14:37.tax. What is the answer then? We have heard about the problems if
:14:37. > :14:43.those large donations Dyer up? Is the answer better regulated
:14:43. > :14:46.charities? Perhaps we should all be given tax relief for her charitable
:14:46. > :14:52.donations. Either that are encourage people who are wealthy
:14:52. > :14:56.enough to pay donations to pay their taxes as well. A taxes go to
:14:56. > :15:01.pay for schools and hospitals and to keep people at the poverty.
:15:01. > :15:09.These are worthwhile objectives and I think it is wrong to avoid paying
:15:09. > :15:14.what I did used to be part of a civil society, which are our taxes.
:15:14. > :15:20.The obviously where in a pickle after the Budget after their granny
:15:20. > :15:24.tax and the pass the tax. They had to do something to move matters on
:15:24. > :15:28.and the focus on tax evasion. Looking at tax evasion, the first
:15:28. > :15:32.issue is how money is given to charitable trusts. I thought Ian
:15:32. > :15:41.was going to say it was just some dinner-party chat which would have
:15:41. > :15:45.allowed me to say it, let's move on to the front page of the Economist.
:15:45. > :15:53.That is the sort of thing you hear in dinner-parties. What did you
:15:53. > :15:57.make of the fact, the sort of response is that drew in. First off,
:15:57. > :16:07.it was a successful cover and managed to get people talking about
:16:07. > :16:08.
:16:08. > :16:13.it. In terms of humour and irony of satire, it is the able but not
:16:14. > :16:19.quite as feeble as many of the nationalist responses to it. It is
:16:19. > :16:23.not a grotesque insult to all come up -- all Scots or evidence of
:16:23. > :16:28.Little Englander imperialism. People have to grow up about it and
:16:28. > :16:33.if you cannot take a joke, you cannot run a country. I thought it
:16:33. > :16:41.was mildly amusing and a sub private-eye way. If you read the
:16:41. > :16:46.article itself, it is a rather feeble proposition. You can see
:16:46. > :16:50.right at the start that the Scot can actually pay their way. Looking
:16:50. > :16:57.at where the SNP are heading in terms of membership of NATO, what
:16:57. > :17:02.you think of that? It is moving and it has been moving for a long time.
:17:02. > :17:06.NATO itself is something of an anachronism. It was set up to deal
:17:06. > :17:14.with the perceived menace from the Soviet Union. That no longer
:17:14. > :17:17.applies in the same form. The SNP is all about removing the negatives.
:17:17. > :17:21.They want to encourage people that they are about joining something
:17:21. > :17:26.rather than leaving everything. They say that instead of talking
:17:26. > :17:31.about NATO we must talk about some kind of informal Nordic alliance
:17:31. > :17:36.with countries who are non-nuclear. The problem is that NATO is
:17:36. > :17:43.explicitly and nuclear alliance and we have the nuclear weapons here.
:17:43. > :17:48.What is most interesting to see as we get closer to independence is
:17:48. > :17:54.how the existence of these bases is used in negotiations on some form
:17:54. > :17:58.of federalism or independence, and who will see some delaying of the
:17:58. > :18:08.timetable over that in which nuclear weapons would be removed
:18:08. > :18:09.
:18:09. > :18:16.from our soil. They will be part of independence negotiations?
:18:17. > :18:22.negotiator would throw away the submarines on the Clyde. The SNP's
:18:22. > :18:29.defence policy, like it and Akram's, was not built and a day. It is part
:18:29. > :18:34.of a way of removing objections in Middle Scotland to voting SNP. They
:18:34. > :18:40.need to reassure voters that in the same way the SNP has changed its