:00:34. > :00:38.Afternoon folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:38. > :00:41.David Cameron puts his Culture Secretary on probation this morning.
:00:41. > :00:46.He'll see how Jeremy Hunt performs before Leveson, then decide his
:00:46. > :00:52.future. But a lot could happen before then. We'll ask Lib Dem
:00:52. > :00:54.Culture spokesman Don Foster who he's backing in the hunt for Hunt.
:00:54. > :00:59.Hunt's tormentor-in-chief has been Labour Deputy Leader Harriet Harman,
:00:59. > :01:01.who joins us for the Sunday Interview. She'll tell us what's at
:01:02. > :01:08.stake for Labour when London, Glasgow and councils around the UK
:01:08. > :01:11.go to the polls on Thursday. And how do you get out of an
:01:11. > :01:21.omnishambles? Don't know? Well, we've been asking around
:01:21. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:25.Westminster for tips. Always happy to help.
:01:25. > :01:32.On Sunday Politics Scotland - strong words for the UK Government
:01:32. > :01:37.from Scotland's most senior Catholic, Cardinal Keith O'Brien.
:01:37. > :01:39.would say many in our government have lost touch with that reality
:01:39. > :01:49.of what is going on. Plus, former first minister Jack
:01:49. > :01:49.
:01:49. > :27:26.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1536 seconds
:27:26. > :27:30.McConnell begins legal action over Sir Alan Sugar's job is safe?
:27:30. > :27:36.once you are appointed a peer... It is really not the issue. People are
:27:36. > :27:40.not voting on Alan Sugar on third you have a particular problem in
:27:40. > :27:44.the south. You have problems in Glasgow against the Nationals,
:27:44. > :27:49.problems in London. Even when nationally you're doing incredibly
:27:49. > :27:58.well in the polls, you have a problem in the south. Why should
:27:58. > :28:04.people in the South vote for a party that boost Tony Blair?
:28:04. > :28:10.party does not. You did, I was there. It was a tiny fraction of
:28:10. > :28:15.the audience. I was there, it was more than a fraction. And the
:28:15. > :28:18.leader did not slap them down. tiny fraction of the audience quite
:28:18. > :28:23.wrongly, in my view and in the view of the rest of the conference,
:28:23. > :28:33.Georg a reference to Tony Blair. For the rest of the conference,
:28:33. > :28:36.
:28:36. > :28:45.anybody who said - we don't believe he should have been cheated. A let
:28:45. > :28:52.me bring you back full circle. His report Murdoch -- is Rupert Murdoch
:28:52. > :28:57.a fit and proper person to hold a licensing -- broadcasting licence
:28:57. > :29:04.in the country? If I was examining it, of course, I would say no.
:29:04. > :29:08.he should lose the 40% of BSkyB that he owns? If you would ask what
:29:08. > :29:13.has gone on in that organisation, yes, I think he is not a fit and
:29:13. > :29:23.proper person. Widespread criminality went on within his
:29:23. > :29:30.
:29:30. > :29:32.organisation. Thank you for being Good afternoon and welcome to
:29:32. > :29:34.Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:
:29:34. > :29:37.Cardinal Keith O'Brien tells the Prime Minister he is immoral in
:29:37. > :29:45.putting the interests of his wealthy colleagues before the needs
:29:45. > :29:49.of ordinary families. It is immoral. It is not moral to ignore them and
:29:49. > :29:53.say they should struggle along and the rich can go on sailing it in
:29:53. > :29:55.their own sweet way. As local election day looms, how
:29:55. > :29:59.will voters rank candidates in Edinburgh, which is shaping up to
:29:59. > :30:02.be one of the most closely fought contests in the country?
:30:02. > :30:07.The former first minister Jack McConnell confirms he is taking
:30:07. > :30:11.legal action over alleged phone hacking.
:30:11. > :30:15.And I will be looking at why more and more families are going hungry
:30:15. > :30:18.and turning to charities for help. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has accused
:30:18. > :30:20.the Prime Minister of protecting the very wealthiest in society at
:30:20. > :30:23.the expense of ordinary families. The leader of Scotland's Catholics
:30:23. > :30:29.has written to David Cameron asking him to implement the so called
:30:29. > :30:32.Robin Hood Tax. The chancellor George Osbourne has
:30:32. > :30:34.described the levy on financial transactions as economic suicide.
:30:34. > :30:37.But in an exclusive interview with our correspondent David Miller,
:30:37. > :30:39.Cardinal O'Brien says the Prime Minister is out of touch and the
:30:39. > :30:49.government's attitude is immoral, ignoring working people and letting
:30:49. > :30:52.
:30:52. > :30:57.the rich go on in their own sweet way. My message to David Cameron as
:30:57. > :31:02.head of our government is to seriously think again about this
:31:02. > :31:07.Robin Hood tax, the tax to help the poor by taking a little bit from
:31:08. > :31:14.the rich. I am asking him to consider a moral question facing
:31:14. > :31:19.our country at this present time. The poor had suffered tremendously
:31:19. > :31:27.from financial disasters in recent years, and nothing has been done by
:31:27. > :31:30.the very rich people to help them. I am saying to the Prime Minister,
:31:30. > :31:34.don't just protect your very rich colleagues in the financial
:31:34. > :31:38.industry. Consider your moral obligation to help the poor of the
:31:38. > :31:42.country. In your letter to the Prime Minister, you write "it is
:31:42. > :31:47.not acceptable for your government to protect the very wealthiest
:31:47. > :31:53.people in our country at the expense of the poor". In your view,
:31:53. > :31:58.is the position adopted by the Prime Minister moral? Basically, I
:31:59. > :32:05.would say no. The poor have suffered so much in recent years,
:32:05. > :32:10.and when I say poor, I don't mean the abject poverty that we
:32:10. > :32:13.sometimes see in our streets. Yes, obviously, they are affected, but I
:32:13. > :32:18.mean people who would think themselves reasonably well-off,
:32:18. > :32:22.people who have saved for their pensions and now realised their
:32:22. > :32:32.pension funds are no more, people who are considering having to give
:32:32. > :32:32.
:32:32. > :32:36.up their retirement homes. Poverty affecting young couples and their
:32:36. > :32:41.children and so on. It is these people who have had to suffer
:32:41. > :32:46.because of the financial disasters of recent years and it is immoral,
:32:46. > :32:53.not moral, to just ignore them and to say "struggle along, and the
:32:53. > :32:56.rich can go on sailing in their own sweet way". We are reading more and
:32:56. > :33:01.more about the way it there are more disasters facing us
:33:01. > :33:11.financially, and we have just got to be prepared to help those who
:33:11. > :33:14.are less able to help themselves. used suggesting that the Prime
:33:14. > :33:19.Minister and his councillor -- Chancellor are out of touch with
:33:19. > :33:26.the common man, the needs of the man and woman in the street?
:33:26. > :33:31.would say many in our government, and I think the Prime Minister,
:33:31. > :33:35.they have lost touch with what is going on. I remember when Pope
:33:35. > :33:40.Benedict XVI was here speaking to our leaders in Westminster. He said,
:33:40. > :33:45.don't be afraid of religion, don't be frightened of what other fakes
:33:45. > :33:55.are saying to you, to those in positions of responsibility. I
:33:55. > :33:58.would like to think that we are closer to grass roots goings-on
:33:58. > :34:02.than the Prime Minister and the government. How would the poor
:34:02. > :34:08.benefit from the introduction of a tax which the government tells us
:34:08. > :34:13.would result in fewer jobs being created in the UK and investments
:34:13. > :34:18.in going overseas? I don't think it would reduce growth and cost jobs.
:34:18. > :34:24.That would go on as normal. I think we have to remember this is an
:34:24. > :34:28.extra income to our country. It would help growth because of that,
:34:28. > :34:36.and would be providing money for those sorts of things that I
:34:36. > :34:42.indicated before - better schools, better healthcare and so one.
:34:42. > :34:46.Consequently, that would happen. Of course, there's an increase to the
:34:46. > :34:50.growth, the economic growth, of our country, Beth there is always that
:34:50. > :34:54.moral issue as well. As well as helping the economic situation, we
:34:54. > :34:59.have to consider the morality of what is right and wrong. There
:34:59. > :35:04.appears to be no prospect of a global deal on the introduction of
:35:04. > :35:10.a Robin Hood tax, a financial transaction tax. You really believe
:35:10. > :35:20.the UK could afford to go it alone on this? Yes, I binned it can. I
:35:20. > :35:23.
:35:23. > :35:27.know there had been plans -- I know it can. Those plans haven't come to
:35:27. > :35:32.anything yet, but I know individual countries such as France and
:35:32. > :35:36.Hungary are seriously considering whether to implement this type of
:35:36. > :35:40.tax in their own countries. I would like to think that the United
:35:40. > :35:47.Kingdom would be able to give some sort of leadership in that as well
:35:47. > :35:52.with our own form of this financial transaction tax. You want to see at
:35:52. > :35:57.least half of the money raised through the introduction of this
:35:57. > :36:00.tax spent internationally, for example, tackling the effects of
:36:00. > :36:04.climate change. When to be difficult to convince the poorest
:36:04. > :36:14.people in our own society that that would be a good use of the money at
:36:14. > :36:15.
:36:15. > :36:22.a time when people here are suffering so much? Well, you are
:36:22. > :36:29.helping the poor people overseas as well as poor people in our own
:36:29. > :36:33.country. To help them realise the morality of what is going on - no
:36:33. > :36:38.man is an island. It is not just in our own islands that there is
:36:38. > :36:44.suffering at this present time. I have had the opportunity to travel
:36:44. > :36:48.to many countries in the world in which there is poverty. In January,
:36:48. > :36:58.I was in Haiti, and you know something of the poverty there. In
:36:58. > :37:00.
:37:00. > :37:04.African countries like Rwanda and southern Sudan, there are places
:37:04. > :37:08.where there are abject levels of poverty and it is reassuring for
:37:08. > :37:14.our people to think that as a result of this tax, not just better
:37:14. > :37:20.schools and hospitals or whatever, but we are helping to alleviate
:37:20. > :37:24.something of that abject hunger and poverty in other countries. Finally,
:37:24. > :37:28.you are sending a powerful message to the Prime Minister on behalf of
:37:28. > :37:35.the Catholic Church in Scotland. It is a message we have heard from
:37:35. > :37:41.other churches as well, from charities. Do you believe the Prime
:37:41. > :37:48.Minister is listening? I don't think they are listening yet. Here
:37:48. > :37:52.in Scotland, here in Edinburgh, charities and other agencies have
:37:52. > :37:58.taken a tremendous lead in that campaign to Make Poverty History.
:37:58. > :38:02.We have not yet made poverty history. Because we haven't been
:38:02. > :38:07.doing what we promised - governments have not been doing
:38:07. > :38:14.what they promised. This is one relatively small and easy and
:38:14. > :38:23.painless way in which we are taking a step along that road of making
:38:23. > :38:27.poverty history. I am calling up to David Cameron and the members of
:38:27. > :38:31.our government to see what we can really do in this very, very
:38:31. > :38:36.effective way at this present time to take another little step along
:38:36. > :38:40.that road of making poverty history. Poverty in our own country and
:38:40. > :38:45.poverty throughout the world. Cardinal Keith O'Brien talking
:38:45. > :38:47.there. In response to criticisms that he
:38:47. > :38:51.doesn't understand the difficulties that people are facing at the
:38:51. > :38:58.moment, the Prime Minister had this to say on the Andrew Marr Show this
:38:58. > :39:02.morning. I understand a difficult it is for people in this country
:39:02. > :39:06.right now. Petrol and diesel at these prices, I understand how
:39:06. > :39:09.difficult it is when you have job losses in the public sector and you
:39:09. > :39:14.need the private sector to expand faster. I understand those
:39:14. > :39:23.difficulties, that is what fires me up and get me out of bed - to get
:39:23. > :39:28.hard -- to work hard, to do the right thing. We need to focus on
:39:28. > :39:31.the things they need to be done. We did ask for an interview with
:39:31. > :39:34.the Treasury, but were told nobody was available. We then asked for an
:39:34. > :39:36.interview with anyone from the UK Government, but, again, nobody was
:39:36. > :39:40.available. We then asked whether any Liberal Democrat or Tory MP
:39:40. > :39:43.would like to join us, but they were also all unable to do so. I'm
:39:43. > :39:46.joined here by Labour's Cathy Jamieson, who is a member of the
:39:46. > :39:54.Shadow Treasury team, and from Dundee, by the SNP's Treasury
:39:55. > :39:58.spokesperson at Westminster, Stewart Hosie. Thank you for coming
:39:58. > :40:03.in. Stewart Hosie, do you agree that David Cameron is a moral in
:40:03. > :40:07.not imposing his Robin Hood tax? certainly agree the Cardinal is
:40:07. > :40:11.right to speak out. I agree with much of what he said. In terms of
:40:11. > :40:16.what we have seen it in the last few weeks, changes to tax credits
:40:16. > :40:24.so people can't find extra hours to work, 4.4 million pensioners being
:40:24. > :40:28.worse off, people being taxed at a 40 p were rate. When the cardinal
:40:28. > :40:34.speaks about morality, I think I understand what he's saying.
:40:34. > :40:39.right now, the SNP does not support the introduction of this tax.
:40:39. > :40:44.are very keen to see a financial transaction tax. But if it is not
:40:44. > :40:49.done globally, it offers some very real dangers and I think the point
:40:49. > :40:52.I would make his that if the UK Government is serious they should
:40:52. > :40:57.be advocating for this to be done on a global basis, rather than
:40:57. > :41:01.simply dismissing it. Yes, we need guarantees that jobs will be
:41:01. > :41:09.protected, but that means we need to work together to advocate for
:41:09. > :41:14.this to happen globally. Stewart Hosie, already, people are
:41:14. > :41:18.saying that America will never agree to this. We know that there
:41:18. > :41:24.has been support for a Europe wide decision on this. Would that be
:41:24. > :41:27.enough? Would you be comfortable if it was throughout Europe? Well, it
:41:28. > :41:33.is difficult because the financial markets are genuinely global. I
:41:33. > :41:38.will go back to what I said before - we should be advocating, same to
:41:38. > :41:43.the United States, and others, that this is a really good thing to do.
:41:43. > :41:47.It must happen internationally, let us not just dismiss it because it
:41:47. > :41:52.isn't happening in America. But if it doesn't, would it work in
:41:52. > :41:56.Europe? Would you be satisfied with a Europe-wide levy? Well, you would
:41:56. > :42:01.have to look and see exactly what that might be. None of us know, and
:42:01. > :42:05.that is because there are another - - in number of variations on this.
:42:05. > :42:10.You would have to look extremely carefully to make sure there is no
:42:10. > :42:17.damage done. Cathy Jamieson, you support the levying of this tax on
:42:17. > :42:20.financial transactions, personally. I have supported that for a number
:42:20. > :42:24.of years. I think in this instance there is more agreement between
:42:24. > :42:29.Stewart Hosie and myself then people would anticipate. I do think
:42:29. > :42:33.there are dangers if this is not done on a global scale. But this is
:42:33. > :42:37.a very powerful intervention from the cardinal, who is making it
:42:37. > :42:41.clear that the policies of the UK Government are hitting families and
:42:41. > :42:47.people who perhaps in the past would have thought of themselves as
:42:47. > :42:51.being reasonably well off. It is having a real impact on family life.
:42:51. > :42:55.So let's look at what can be done and how we can advocate for this
:42:55. > :43:01.financial transactions tax to insure it helps people not just at
:43:01. > :43:05.home but also in some of the world's poorest countries. So do
:43:05. > :43:08.you agree that David Cameron is a moral in not implementing this?
:43:08. > :43:11.would be good to see David Cameron looking and being a bit more in
:43:11. > :43:15.touch with the realities of life for ordinary families. I don't
:43:15. > :43:18.think there is anything he has said that has persuaded me that you
:43:18. > :43:25.really understand what it is like to be a low-paid, part-time worker
:43:26. > :43:29.who has just lost about �4,000 a year in their tax credits. So there
:43:29. > :43:32.we can really understand what you're saying here, we know that Ed
:43:32. > :43:36.Balls the shadow chancellor has said he would be economic suicide
:43:36. > :43:40.to introduce this tax, he said it should not be introduced unless it
:43:40. > :43:45.is global. Are you are doing that it could stand alone in the UK?
:43:45. > :43:50.would like to see done on a global basis. It is an opportunity to
:43:50. > :43:53.protect... But if it isn't? Well, I don't think we should give up on
:43:53. > :43:57.that argument. That is also what the Cardinal was saying. The UK
:43:57. > :44:04.Government should take a lead on this. When this was previously
:44:04. > :44:07.proposed across Europe, it would have been used to plug the eurozone
:44:07. > :44:12.crisis. That is not really what the fundamental principles of this tax
:44:12. > :44:17.are about. Let's push for this to be done on a global basis. But we
:44:17. > :44:21.know already the door is slightly open in Europe. Could it were just
:44:21. > :44:24.in Europe? I know everybody is saying it would be easiest and most
:44:24. > :44:28.effective with least prospect of damaged if it were global, but, as
:44:28. > :44:38.we say, many people have said that America is never going to sign up
:44:38. > :44:46.
:44:46. > :44:49.to this. So, accepting that, could Are willing to cede more broadly
:44:49. > :44:54.than the UK and because many companies would it take their, --
:44:54. > :44:58.their actions out of the UK and avoid paying it. It is important
:44:58. > :45:02.that the UK Government takes the lead on this. There are things they
:45:02. > :45:06.could do now to help was families the Cardinal was talking about,
:45:06. > :45:11.restoring the cuts to the working tax credit and not giving
:45:11. > :45:16.millionaires the tax cuts they have given them in this budget. We have
:45:16. > :45:20.been saying it would be damaging and billions could be lost and go
:45:20. > :45:25.offshore to avoid paying this tax, but economists have signed a letter
:45:25. > :45:29.saying this would not necessarily be the outcome. To whom do you
:45:29. > :45:34.think we need to speak now and what evidence which you like to see
:45:34. > :45:40.coming forward? We need to speak to all of those bodies engaged in
:45:40. > :45:44.these precise financial transactions. Economists have said
:45:44. > :45:51.one thing, but the businesses who engage in buying and selling every
:45:51. > :45:56.day may say something different. One can easily see and envisage a
:45:56. > :46:02.situation where a certain section of Trade and trading is taken off
:46:02. > :46:08.shore. It is taken to a country which has not signed up. I agree
:46:08. > :46:17.with cafe, that could leave us with less revenue to fund core services
:46:17. > :46:27.which would be the worst of all solutions. Her f economists say
:46:27. > :46:36.that, for example, a researcher for JP Morgan said, I Robin Hood tax
:46:36. > :46:41.could be good for the economy but the net effect is likely to be plus
:46:41. > :46:46.a quarter of a percent. There is conflicting evidence out there.
:46:46. > :46:51.This is true. Therefore, we must not rule things out and continue
:46:51. > :46:55.the fight. The cardinal talked about the morality of this. It will
:46:55. > :46:59.cap the living conditions of some of the poorest people in the world,
:46:59. > :47:02.it is important we get the developing countries to sign up and
:47:02. > :47:10.take their share of the responsibility. That is why I
:47:10. > :47:17.support this as a global tax. you very much. We understand this
:47:17. > :47:19.morning, the former First Minister, Jack McConnell, has confirmed he is
:47:19. > :47:25.taking legal actions against allegations of his phone being
:47:25. > :47:29.hacked, what is the extent of this, do you think? I think it is
:47:29. > :47:35.shocking that the First Minister of Scotland had his phone hacked. I
:47:35. > :47:44.feel for Jack and his family having to go through this process. We have
:47:44. > :47:49.a revolution today in the lines of the Leveson Inquiry. Are you
:47:49. > :47:53.shocked by this revelation? And I am appalled. We had the original
:47:53. > :47:58.reports and there were thousands of deter breaches. The real tragedy
:47:58. > :48:02.for me is that this was not dealt with much sooner. We're now in a
:48:03. > :48:08.position where all this is unravelling. When the original
:48:08. > :48:16.report was published, that would have been a better place today if
:48:16. > :48:22.action had been taking. It is appalling. I hope the Prime
:48:22. > :48:29.Minister will make any representations he can. Hopefully,
:48:29. > :48:34.Mr Salmond will see he cannot defend any of this. I did suspect
:48:34. > :48:38.that she might say that. She won I want to apologise for the 18
:48:38. > :48:44.meetings Labour leaders had with Rupert Murdoch, after the original
:48:44. > :48:47.report was on Gordon Brown's desk. I would rather we got to the bottom
:48:48. > :48:55.of this and clean up the whole culture of the media. Thank you
:48:55. > :48:58.very much. Now while much attention has been on the local election race
:48:58. > :49:01.in Glasgow, another close contest is taking place in the Capital.
:49:01. > :49:04.Just remember the backdrop - a tram project years behind schedule and
:49:04. > :49:06.massively over budget - turning famous streets into virtual no-go
:49:06. > :49:09.areas and Edinburgh into a laughing stock. And then recurring
:49:09. > :49:14.allegations of fraud and corruption by city officials over housing
:49:15. > :49:24.repairs. So what will all this mean when the voters go to the polls? We
:49:25. > :49:31.
:49:31. > :49:35.have the key players here but first here's Christine MacLeod. Young
:49:35. > :49:38.voters in Edinburgh, preparing to rank their candidates in order of
:49:39. > :49:44.preference. The City is one of the most politically divided in
:49:44. > :49:50.Scotland. Is killer cat that 2007 local elections in the city, each
:49:50. > :49:56.of the main parties got one fifth of the first vote. -- if you look
:49:56. > :50:01.at. The Greens do well in the city. Edinburgh is the one place in
:50:01. > :50:05.Scotland work all five of the largest parties do relatively well.
:50:05. > :50:15.These young apprentices are urging their Peers to vote to insure their
:50:15. > :50:16.
:50:16. > :50:24.voices are heard. If I can manage to get across my Bewes... Came of
:50:24. > :50:30.it elderly. They get treated fairly badly. -- keel of the elderly.
:50:30. > :50:33.trams and the destruction they have caused. Anger over the trans has
:50:33. > :50:39.been a constant feature in the media, but this translates as a
:50:39. > :50:44.vote against the Liberal-Democrats? Trans is still one of the biggest
:50:44. > :50:47.talking points in Edinburgh, but the parties are not likely to say
:50:47. > :50:51.anything different about them, they all want to get the scheme
:50:51. > :50:56.completed as quickly as possible and for as little money. It is
:50:56. > :51:01.difficult to know what voters who are angry about the trans can do.
:51:01. > :51:09.It is almost neutralised. This election is taking place under the
:51:09. > :51:13.PR voting system. That means any bargaining which takes place
:51:13. > :51:18.between the parties after the election, could be as crucial as
:51:18. > :51:23.the campaigning beforehand. After the election, no one party will
:51:23. > :51:30.have a majority so there will have to seek partners for an
:51:30. > :51:35.administration. The Greens was -- will play an important role in that.
:51:35. > :51:39.So, it is the guess of anyone what will happen here. Whatever the
:51:39. > :51:46.outcome, the voters want to know whether their calls for change or
:51:46. > :51:50.will be heard. So with me now are the leaders of the four main
:51:50. > :51:52.parties at Edinburgh City Council. In the studio for the SNP is Steve
:51:52. > :51:55.Cardownie, for Labour - Andrew Burns. And in Edinburgh for the
:51:55. > :52:05.Liberal Democrats we have Jenny Dawe and for the Conservatives,
:52:05. > :52:09.
:52:09. > :52:14.Jeremy Balfour. We are grateful for your time. You with a former
:52:14. > :52:19.council leader, when you look back at your tenure, are you proud of
:52:19. > :52:23.the way you serve the citizens of Edinburgh? Yes, I am. It has been a
:52:23. > :52:28.challenging five years but I can look back and show that I believed
:52:28. > :52:32.Edinburgh is a better place, thanks to the Liberal Democrat policies we
:52:32. > :52:39.put in place and thanks to the way that coalition administration has
:52:39. > :52:45.taken a tough decisions we had to take. Regrets, have you had a few?
:52:45. > :52:50.Obviously, things could have worked out better as regards the trams. We
:52:50. > :52:56.have now turned that around. We now have a project going to St Andrews
:52:56. > :53:00.Square. There are some issues which might have been better if they had
:53:00. > :53:06.worked out rather more quickly, however we took tough decisions
:53:06. > :53:14.which brought us to where we want to be now. Obviously, the SNP were
:53:14. > :53:20.in coalition in previous councils with the Lib Dems. D Rigby that
:53:21. > :53:29.work better than you expected? it worked better than we thought.
:53:29. > :53:35.It lasted five years. Our position on the trams were clear. The other
:53:35. > :53:40.parties were in favour of trams. There is probably two other major
:53:40. > :53:44.issues in the five years when we differ substantially from the
:53:44. > :53:49.Liberal-Democrats, but we have been through it. Lasting for five years
:53:49. > :53:52.is testimony to the way the leadership worked, but the way all
:53:52. > :53:57.the people within the Liberal- Democrats and the SNP work hard
:53:57. > :54:03.together to get policies through. So, you could do it all again with
:54:03. > :54:08.the Lib Dems if you needed to? could do. We hope we and in a
:54:08. > :54:16.position where we will be in the driving seat. We ought to be the
:54:16. > :54:20.senior partner in any coalition. Quite a lot of the chatter Today
:54:20. > :54:26.newspapers has been that an interesting coalition would be
:54:26. > :54:31.between Labour and SNP, could you work together? I would not have a
:54:31. > :54:35.problem with that, I used to be in the Labour Party -- Steve used to
:54:35. > :54:38.be in the Labour Party. He used to be a colleague and I would have no
:54:39. > :54:48.problem with working with any of the parties in Edinburgh. The
:54:49. > :54:49.
:54:49. > :54:55.voters are in the driving seat. were at the transport convener in
:54:55. > :54:58.2007 when the trams project contract was signed. The condition
:54:58. > :55:02.subsequently unravelled spectacularly. Have you ever
:55:02. > :55:08.apologise for that? What you have said is not quite correct. The
:55:08. > :55:15.final contract was not signed until 2008. All five parties in Edinburgh
:55:15. > :55:19.signed up to that. It was a year after the elections and into
:55:19. > :55:24.Jenny's administration. We all have a degree of responsibility for this
:55:24. > :55:27.project which is why we have called for the last cheer for an
:55:27. > :55:33.independent public inquiry to happen as quickly as possible.
:55:33. > :55:42.you have apologised for your part in it? A absolutely, we all have a
:55:42. > :55:46.share in it. Jeremy Balfour, you have been emphasising the key role
:55:46. > :55:49.that Council plays in providing services. Do you think it
:55:49. > :55:53.inevitable that some services will have to go out to private
:55:53. > :55:59.contractors? I am not sure they have to go out to private
:55:59. > :56:03.contractors, we could work in partnership with business to make
:56:03. > :56:09.sure it the services are provided in the most efficient way. We have
:56:09. > :56:17.to look at an admixture of modules here in Edinburgh. Some can be done
:56:17. > :56:22.in-house, some in partnership with others. That is already happening
:56:22. > :56:28.in Edinburgh, for example under a former Labour administration. I
:56:28. > :56:32.think that has worked reasonably well. This could work well in the
:56:32. > :56:40.future. But you do envisage there will be more private sector
:56:40. > :56:44.involvement in providing frontline services for the council? I think,
:56:44. > :56:47.the voluntary organisations have a role to play and business
:56:47. > :56:52.organisations have a role to play. We need a working partnership to
:56:52. > :56:57.make sure that service is provided are provided efficiently and well.
:56:57. > :57:03.I do not think people in Edinburgh provide -- mind to provides the
:57:03. > :57:07.services as long as it is done well and efficiently. Is that true?
:57:07. > :57:14.think most people would prefer services to be provided by public
:57:14. > :57:18.sector employees. However, they want value for money. When we did
:57:18. > :57:23.not vote for the scheme to hive off some services to the private sector,
:57:23. > :57:31.it was not on the basis that the status quo would prevail. There had
:57:31. > :57:36.to be changes. That has happened so we it are more efficient now. I
:57:36. > :57:42.think people respect the fact that people joined the public sector to
:57:42. > :57:45.provide services for the citizens of the city. They would prefer to
:57:46. > :57:51.retain his services there but the public sector has to look at the
:57:51. > :57:55.private sector and take on lessons from them and bring them in into
:57:55. > :58:01.the private -- the public sector. This will make sure people get
:58:01. > :58:05.value for money. Do you agree? ideal. There are ways that the
:58:05. > :58:12.private sector can be involved, whether it is over and gas or
:58:12. > :58:16.electricity provision. What was proposed under Jenny's leadership
:58:16. > :58:22.was to put out to private sector over 3,000 of the council jobs
:58:22. > :58:29.minus 20 % of the council work force. A lot were Front Line
:58:29. > :58:36.service functions which we opposed right from the outset. We opposed
:58:36. > :58:42.it as well. The SNP said no, this is a step too far and we retain the
:58:42. > :58:47.jobs. For �4 million worth the money was spent. We do still back
:58:47. > :58:52.that volume of work going out to private contractors? People in the
:58:52. > :58:57.City want services provided in as efficient and effective a way as
:58:57. > :59:01.possible and get best value for money. It was not privatisation or
:59:01. > :59:06.putting services out to the private sector which is being described. It
:59:07. > :59:10.was much more of a partnership with the private sector. Particularly on
:59:10. > :59:16.the environmental services were extreme, there were good reasons to
:59:16. > :59:22.have gone with that model of working in the future. That is what
:59:22. > :59:25.my group wanted on the council. We started from the premise that
:59:25. > :59:33.public services are in general best provided by public servants.
:59:33. > :59:38.However, we had to look at quality of services and cost. After a long
:59:38. > :59:40.period of negotiation, we thought the environmental services in
:59:40. > :59:48.particular was where we could have worked in partnership with the
:59:48. > :59:53.private sector but we did not lose control of the strategy or policy.
:59:53. > :59:58.To be clear, were you to have any influence in the next Council, you
:59:58. > :00:04.would want to be introduced that model? I think that the moment has
:00:04. > :00:08.passed. Over two years were spent negotiating with different private
:00:08. > :00:12.sector organisations and works streams. I do not think we would be
:00:12. > :00:16.revisiting it in that form, but I think we have to look at the best
:00:16. > :00:21.way to provide services and that might be working in social
:00:21. > :00:25.enterprises, with the voluntary and private sector. We have to look at
:00:25. > :00:34.what gives us best value but what does not detract from the quality
:00:34. > :00:42.Jeremy, is it inevitable that people will have to pay more for
:00:42. > :00:44.their transport? I don't think that is necessarily true. We have in �1
:00:44. > :00:50.million budget in Edinburgh and we're looking to make sure that
:00:50. > :00:55.budget is done most efficiently. One of our key commitments is to go
:00:56. > :00:59.for budgeting in 2013. We believe offices can find back room savings
:00:59. > :01:03.which can then be put into front line services. That will release
:01:03. > :01:09.money which means that the services we provide at the moment can be
:01:09. > :01:15.done efficiently and also within that �1 billion budget. You must
:01:15. > :01:22.regret the level of debt with which you that she had told the council -
:01:22. > :01:27.- you have saddled the council? Well, the debt is �1.5 billion. It
:01:27. > :01:35.was only �900 million in 2007 when Labour left office. It has gone up
:01:35. > :01:38.by 66% since May 2007. It it has gone up under SNP leadership.
:01:38. > :01:45.we talk about the millions that are lost out there to people in
:01:45. > :01:49.Edinburgh who were listening to this, when you say it was bad
:01:49. > :01:52.underwriters but worse and others, many people find does -- find that
:01:53. > :01:58.a rather fatuous argument. They just want to make sure you don't
:01:58. > :02:02.make those mistakes in the future. It is important to stress the
:02:02. > :02:09.project has spiralled out of control under the current
:02:09. > :02:13.leadership. The level of debt has gone up by 66%. And that was not
:02:13. > :02:20.because of a large loopholes in the original agreement you signed?
:02:20. > :02:27.did not sign up. That was signed on 1st May, a year after this Lib Dem.
:02:27. > :02:31.Well, you negotiated it then. mean, Andrew is being a bit
:02:31. > :02:36.disingenuous about the tram project. Three times, the SNP called for it
:02:36. > :02:40.to be scrapped, and once for a referendum. We were outvoted by
:02:40. > :02:43.other parties. We did not oppose the signing of the contract because
:02:43. > :02:48.we were persuaded that the council should remain united when faced
:02:48. > :02:53.with signing a contract with a consortium. We lost argument over
:02:53. > :02:57.the business case. I don't really blame councillors for agreeing with
:02:57. > :03:02.the contract, I blame that advice that we got, because we had legal
:03:02. > :03:08.advice that these contracts were good. I remember somebody saying
:03:09. > :03:14.they were too many checks and balances in the contract for it to
:03:14. > :03:18.be dangerous. So I think councillors were badly misled.
:03:18. > :03:23.Ultimately, you have a duty to make sure you are satisfied, you satisfy
:03:23. > :03:30.yourselves. Indeed, I think the councillors from all parties asked
:03:30. > :03:34.relevant questions, week -- we had some very highly paid officials who
:03:34. > :03:40.were not at the top of their game. It is very bad form to blame your
:03:40. > :03:44.officials. Well, that is the case here. We were advised to sign the
:03:44. > :03:50.contracts by officials with legal expertise who told us they will
:03:50. > :03:56.watertight. That has turned out not to be the case. Jenny, can I ask
:03:56. > :03:59.you how much you regret the fact that Edinburgh council is now
:03:59. > :04:03.associated with allegations of corruption and fraud by council
:04:03. > :04:08.officials? I think every councillor must greatly regret that fact. What
:04:08. > :04:14.is important now is that this investigation which is under way
:04:14. > :04:19.continues, and that the internal investigation, which is also
:04:19. > :04:24.continuing, routes out all the problems that there have been. Of
:04:24. > :04:28.course, none of us wish to be in a situation where we found that
:04:28. > :04:33.officials of the council had not acted in as honest a way as they
:04:33. > :04:36.should have done. Jeremy, do you accept that in the public mind this
:04:36. > :04:40.may speak to incompetence by councillors who are supposed to be
:04:40. > :04:44.in charge of running the council? Yes, I recognise that perhaps most
:04:44. > :04:47.people in Edinburgh don't make the distinction between what
:04:47. > :04:52.councillors do and what are officers do. But I do agree, going
:04:52. > :04:56.back to Steve's comment - we were given what we thought was very good
:04:56. > :05:01.advice, good commercial advice, before we signed the contract. I
:05:01. > :05:05.think that advice was wrong and I do think that is why we should call
:05:05. > :05:12.for a public inquiry, so we can find out what went wrong, why the
:05:12. > :05:17.advice given to council was wrong. Clearly, hindsight is a great thing,
:05:17. > :05:22.but if I could go back, I would not sign the contract that was put in
:05:22. > :05:26.front of us on the information that I now know. But I did not know that
:05:26. > :05:31.at the time. These counsellors can any make decisions on the
:05:31. > :05:34.information that we have. I believe all councillors from every party
:05:34. > :05:38.did ask the right questions, and I think in regard to the property
:05:38. > :05:43.repair things, one problem which may have occurred is there was a
:05:43. > :05:46.lack of political involvement. Perhaps we need to make sure that
:05:46. > :05:56.politicians are involved in getting the right information and making
:05:56. > :05:58.
:05:58. > :06:01.the decisions. Thank you very much, all of you. We'll leave it there.
:06:01. > :06:04.And if you'd like to read more about the local government
:06:04. > :06:07.elections, you can visit the BBC Scotland news website and click on
:06:07. > :06:10.the Vote 2012 link for more information.
:06:10. > :06:13.A UK charity which provides food to people in need said this week it's
:06:13. > :06:17.seen a massive rise in the numbers seeking help. The Trussell Trust
:06:17. > :06:20.fed more than 100,000 people last year - up more than 60% on the year
:06:20. > :06:26.before. The charity runs a network for food banks where people can get
:06:26. > :06:29.emergency food parcels. It intends to open up 40 more of these food
:06:29. > :06:37.banks in Scotland by 2015. But should people have to rely no the
:06:37. > :06:43.state for something as basis as food? Gilly Mathieson reports.
:06:43. > :06:48.Every can, carton and shopping bank here is for those who cannot afford
:06:48. > :06:52.to eat. Two food banks are opening every week in the UK because more
:06:52. > :06:56.and more families say they need them. It is a three-day supply of
:06:56. > :07:02.food, about 10 meals were. Steve and Barbara were living from
:07:02. > :07:09.Steve's salary as a security guard until he became sick in January.
:07:09. > :07:19.Before Christmas, new year, we were roughly anything from �1,000 to
:07:19. > :07:20.
:07:20. > :07:25.�1,500 a month. By the end of February, we got �350. That was
:07:25. > :07:32.statutory sick pay. You have a full rent to pay, council tax to pay,
:07:32. > :07:39.gas and electric. You can't do that all of this amount of money. It was
:07:40. > :07:43.the situation. They are not alone. Last year, the number of people fed
:07:43. > :07:47.by the banks doubled. One charity, which is expanding its food banks
:07:47. > :07:51.across Scotland, says the rise is due to what is happening in the
:07:51. > :07:57.economy. We anticipate the situation is going to get worse. It
:07:57. > :08:02.is a very sad reality. People who are on low incomes, the food price
:08:02. > :08:08.inflation is making their ability to buy the necessary Kurds to keep
:08:08. > :08:11.the whole family -- the necessary goods to keep the whole family show
:08:11. > :08:21.on the road is higher than ever before. A benefit support is being
:08:21. > :08:21.
:08:21. > :08:24.cut. Dave is a volunteer at the Dundee food bank. They are
:08:24. > :08:30.struggling until they get paid again on Tuesday. This is emergency
:08:30. > :08:35.food to keep them going. Food here is donated by individuals,
:08:35. > :08:40.supermarkets and local schools. Vouchers are given out by local
:08:40. > :08:45.organisations like the Citizens' Advice Bureau. Williams says he has
:08:45. > :08:52.not eaten for over a week. He is in debt, and for every �90 a week he
:08:52. > :08:57.gets and benefits, he uses �80 to pay off his debt. If it was not for
:08:57. > :09:06.this discovery, I would not be year. I would be in the hospital, I this
:09:06. > :09:16.daft or dead. The coalition government says help is there.
:09:16. > :09:16.
:09:16. > :09:20.either starved or dead. The idea that we should have charity food
:09:20. > :09:23.banks as a replacement of the welfare system is a very worrying
:09:23. > :09:30.development. We are already concerned that we are seeing
:09:30. > :09:36.Jobcentres referring families. charity scene had they will have 40
:09:36. > :09:40.more the banks in Scotland by 2014. -- hopes. But, his charity the
:09:40. > :09:43.answer, or should the state be stepping in. Joining me now from
:09:43. > :09:46.our Dundee studio is Ewan Gurr - a regional organiser for the Trussell
:09:46. > :09:53.Trust and in Oxford we have Professor Liz Dowler, who works in
:09:53. > :09:57.food and social policy at the University of Warwick. Thank you
:09:57. > :10:02.for joining us. Firstly, who is coming to that the banks in
:10:03. > :10:07.Scotland? We are seeing a rise in the proportion of people who are in
:10:07. > :10:12.work or who have just been made redundant. Steve and Barbara are by
:10:12. > :10:17.no means an isolated case. We are seeing a lot of families who are
:10:17. > :10:23.hard-working, real grafters, who have just found themselves in a
:10:23. > :10:31.situation of absolute clap -- absolute crisis. And who is giving
:10:31. > :10:36.you the feud? It comes from a variety of sources. Church as Cesar
:10:36. > :10:40.-- churches give us a lot of food. One of the things we do well his
:10:40. > :10:45.work with supermarkets to do supermarket collections. So the
:10:45. > :10:49.community, essentially, is buying the foot for the project. We then
:10:49. > :10:54.provided to people in need. So it is the community supporting the
:10:54. > :11:00.community. And you see more and more people will be in need?
:11:00. > :11:04.will see an increase over the next the years and we have done already,
:11:04. > :11:09.particularly in Dundee. There's been an increase every year, and it
:11:09. > :11:15.doesn't seem to be declining, so, for that reason, I think there is
:11:15. > :11:20.going to be an increase in nationally. Liz, do you have
:11:20. > :11:25.reservations about this sort of intervention? Yes, I do. I am not
:11:25. > :11:30.remotely against compassion and generosity - how could I be? It is
:11:30. > :11:37.essential that people are enabled to help those in need. But I am
:11:37. > :11:41.extremely, not just worried, I am actually quite angry about the idea
:11:41. > :11:44.that expanding food banks is going to be the answer to this problem. I
:11:44. > :11:50.mean, there are nearly one million people in Scotland already living
:11:50. > :11:55.in poverty. There is no way that the banks can address their needs.
:11:55. > :11:58.And the more that food banks are talked of or there is an
:11:58. > :12:06.implication that they are run answer to the problem, the more
:12:06. > :12:15.they prevent the government and society in general from having
:12:15. > :12:19.serious conversations. So you think the state is let off the hook? What
:12:19. > :12:24.part of state support is failing? Is it the structure of benefits
:12:24. > :12:34.coming out of Westminster, is it wage levels? It is both those
:12:34. > :12:36.
:12:36. > :12:41.things. There is very consistent work from social policy research
:12:41. > :12:44.bodies with good solid methods for looking at what a minimum income
:12:44. > :12:50.standard is. His work has been going on for many years, and for
:12:50. > :12:54.the past three years it has been very apparent how far short most
:12:54. > :12:58.benefits and the national minimum wage for all from what people
:12:58. > :13:04.actually need to be able to live. And certainly to be able to feed
:13:04. > :13:09.themselves. And it is worse than that, because benefits and the wage
:13:09. > :13:12.are up rated either by the Retail Price Index or the Consumer Price
:13:12. > :13:21.Index, both of which do not reflect the real increases in the price of
:13:21. > :13:25.foot, which play a much bigger part in the budget for people on low
:13:25. > :13:29.incomes. So in fact things are getting worse and worse and there
:13:29. > :13:33.is no way the government should not be aware of this. What do you make
:13:33. > :13:38.of that argument, that we have got to the stage now where some
:13:38. > :13:42.professionals are referring people to the food banks, in some ways
:13:42. > :13:46.they are becoming institutionalised, and that by enabling us, you allow
:13:46. > :13:54.the government off the hook? Caddie respond? I hear what you're saying
:13:54. > :13:59.and I here. -- how do you respond? I agree with a lot of what Liz said
:13:59. > :14:03.there. The two things we do not want to do is to create a
:14:03. > :14:07.dependency culture and to subsidise chaotic living. But unfortunately
:14:07. > :14:11.the way I see it is that I am not accountable for what the government
:14:11. > :14:17.isn't doing. I'm accountable for what I am doing. And I feel I have
:14:17. > :14:20.a responsibility to respond to need. And I don't see a great deal of
:14:20. > :14:24.provision for people who are in need at this moment. So I
:14:24. > :14:28.understand where Liz is coming from and I don't believe food banks can
:14:28. > :14:33.address the issues, but I do believe that we can do something to
:14:33. > :14:38.effect change in people's lives. Liz, today we interviewed Cardinal
:14:38. > :14:43.Keith O'Brien, and he has said he feels David Cameron is immoral in
:14:43. > :14:46.not imposing a Robin Hood tax. He feels he is out of touch with
:14:46. > :14:52.ordinary people while his wealthy friends are going on their own
:14:52. > :14:59.sweet way. Do you agree with that? I have a lot of sympathy with him,
:14:59. > :15:03.I must admit. I am not a politician, nor am I a campaigner. I am an
:15:03. > :15:11.academic. Nevertheless, I think it is hard to hold your head up and
:15:11. > :15:13.justified the way our economy is running at the moment. I work
:15:13. > :15:20.internationally and I can see examples in other countries where
:15:20. > :15:30.there is a commitment from the top to a much more just way of enabling
:15:30. > :15:34.
:15:34. > :15:42.Thank you very much. If you would like to hear more on the subject of
:15:42. > :15:49.food banks, you can tune into BBC Scotland investigate this at 4:30pm.
:15:49. > :15:55.How are things which you? We really do care and that is what our size
:15:55. > :16:02.correspondent wants to know. hello, how were you feeling it? --
:16:02. > :16:10.Science Correspondent. Here where operating at Strathclyde University
:16:10. > :16:15.to test the mood of the nation. -- we are co-operating. Think of it as
:16:15. > :16:19.an on-line quiz. We wanted to do something different from a
:16:19. > :16:29.traditional survey on political attitudes. We wanted to find a way
:16:29. > :16:35.to engage people in the research process and get a sense of, how do
:16:35. > :16:39.you feel when you are asked some of these questions? What is your mood?
:16:39. > :16:43.How are the current situation splaying out in your world? We also
:16:43. > :16:49.wanted a sense of whether it is the same in all the different parts of
:16:49. > :16:53.the United Kingdom. We are living in challenging times, it is at the
:16:53. > :16:56.same in Scotland as it is in Northern Ireland? Do some things
:16:56. > :17:02.make people mad in England which they're quite happy about in
:17:02. > :17:06.Scotland or Wales? The everyone who takes the quiz will get an instant
:17:06. > :17:15.personalise result and we will bring you the national results once
:17:15. > :17:19.they had been calculated. Follow this link. That will take you
:17:19. > :17:24.straight to the quiz which should not take long to complete. You will
:17:24. > :17:32.arrive at a map, choose the place she left, follow the survey from
:17:32. > :17:36.there. -- you've left. It is a bit of fun and a way to show how we do
:17:36. > :17:40.academic research and get quick results. They would get a quick
:17:40. > :17:46.result when they finished the question here and it will tell them
:17:46. > :17:52.where they fit into the general picture. The researchers say all
:17:52. > :18:01.submissions are anonymous. No information will be stored. If you
:18:01. > :18:05.want to tell us how you feel, the link is... Now onto the lunchtime
:18:05. > :18:08.news. Good afternoon. Lord McConnell -
:18:08. > :18:11.the former First Minister - has said he's taking legal action over
:18:11. > :18:15.allegations of phone hacking by the News of the world. Lord McConnell
:18:15. > :18:22.said police had told him he was among the potential victims of the
:18:22. > :18:25.scandal. He has confirmed that he and his family are speaking to
:18:25. > :18:27.solicitors. Meanwhile, the Labour Party has called for a formal
:18:27. > :18:32.examination of the role of the Scottish government adviser and his
:18:32. > :18:35.dealings with News Corporation. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has said he
:18:35. > :18:37.believes the Prime Minister is behaving immorally by putting the
:18:37. > :18:40.needs of the rich ahead of those of the poor.
:18:40. > :18:47.But David Cameron says he understands how difficult times are
:18:47. > :18:51.for families. The Cardinal has long championed the very poorest in
:18:51. > :18:56.society. He says these are people lower once well-off - young
:18:56. > :19:02.families, workers and pensioners. Do not just protect all wage you
:19:02. > :19:07.very rich colleagues in the financial industry. Consider your
:19:07. > :19:10.moral obligation to help the poor in our country. The Prime Minister
:19:10. > :19:15.says he understands but tough decisions me to be taken.
:19:15. > :19:21.understand, that is what fires me up and gets near to bend to work
:19:21. > :19:26.hard and do the right thing for the country. The curdle says he backs
:19:26. > :19:30.the campaign for a card -- for a Robin Hood tax on the financial
:19:30. > :19:32.sector which will raise �20 billion every year. The head of the
:19:32. > :19:35.Highland Spring Water firm has once again been named as Scotland's
:19:35. > :19:37.richest man in the Sunday Times Rich List.
:19:37. > :19:40.Mahdi Al-Tajir's personal fortune stands at �1.6 billion. The total
:19:40. > :19:46.number of Scots achieving billionaire status has risen from
:19:46. > :19:52.two up to five. Sport now - and the last Old Firm
:19:52. > :19:56.game of the season started at about half a year ago. Rangers are
:19:56. > :19:59.playing Celtic at Celtic Park and the latest score there is Celtic 2-
:19:59. > :20:03.Rangers nil. We'll have more coverage of that in our next update
:20:03. > :20:08.at 6:15pm this evening. Tender the weather. Hello there, we're
:20:09. > :20:12.starting to see a downhill trend in the says. Cloud wind and rain
:20:12. > :20:17.the says. Cloud wind and rain across southern regions. The
:20:17. > :20:23.northern regions hold on to the sunshine for longest, clouding up
:20:23. > :20:26.in the south with a strong north- easterly breeze. Cooler with the
:20:26. > :20:29.cloud. The rain moves north overnight and fizzles out in the
:20:29. > :20:34.north and east, improving in the south with sunshine coming through
:20:34. > :20:40.and feeling warmer. That's it for and feeling warmer. That's it for
:20:40. > :20:50.and feeling warmer. That's it for now. Goodbye. First, let us take a
:20:50. > :20:53.look back at the week in 60 seconds. The SFA fined and imposed a
:20:53. > :20:59.transfer ban on Rangers for rule- breaking link to the club's
:20:59. > :21:05.financial meltdown. An international election experts
:21:05. > :21:08.reviewed the Holyrood election in 2007 and recommended the
:21:08. > :21:13.independence referendum dump contained only one question. Donald
:21:13. > :21:18.Trump went before a Scottish committee. He was assured an
:21:18. > :21:23.offshore wind firm would not be built near his golf report, he said.
:21:23. > :21:27.A I invested my money based on statements which were made to me,
:21:27. > :21:32.so what they did was lower in the end, I spent his money and now I
:21:33. > :21:37.might regret it. Alex Salmond and Jack McConnell said they did not
:21:37. > :21:43.give assurances. The First Minister and denied any impropriety in his
:21:43. > :21:48.relationship with Rupert Murdoch. James Murdoch told the inquiry Alex
:21:48. > :21:55.Salmond had offered to lobby the UK Government on their behalf
:21:55. > :22:01.supporting a bid to takeover BSkyB. Much to discuss today and we have
:22:02. > :22:05.secured the services of the men in the know so stick with us.
:22:05. > :22:09.Here in the studio we had journalist and lecturer Ewan
:22:09. > :22:14.Crawford and in Edinburgh at the Scottish political editor of the
:22:14. > :22:19.Daily Telegraph, Alan Cochrane. A pleasure to see both. Let us start
:22:19. > :22:23.with their comments of the cardinal. I do not think it will be the
:22:23. > :22:30.highest on David Cameron's list of priorities. He will pay attention
:22:30. > :22:35.to what he said, but his main priority is to save his Culture
:22:35. > :22:40.Secretary. I think he should have sacked 10 days ago. The other thing
:22:40. > :22:48.about the Kano, he devalues it by the language he uses. He said David
:22:48. > :22:53.Cameron is immoral. He has missed the bus on his project because, as
:22:53. > :22:58.both Labour and SNP spokesman said earlier, attacks on financial
:22:58. > :23:05.transactions would have to be global. If Britain did alone,
:23:05. > :23:09.Edinburgh and London would lose hand over fist. To clarify, he said
:23:09. > :23:13.David Cameron and his ministers in their approach in opposing this
:23:13. > :23:18.were immoral. Will people say it is appropriate for someone in the
:23:18. > :23:24.position of the cardinal to make these comments? I am not sure what
:23:24. > :23:29.people will say about the cardinal. I think his over-the-top remarks
:23:29. > :23:34.had devalued everything he has said in recent years. I understand what
:23:35. > :23:42.he is saying about Colin individuals immoral. If he had made
:23:42. > :23:45.-- used different language, forensic she were talking about
:23:45. > :23:49.food banks earlier and the Sunday Times Rich List where the rich are
:23:50. > :23:54.getting even richer, so there is clearly an issue with inequality,
:23:54. > :23:58.so if he is raising those issues that is a good thing but sometimes
:23:58. > :24:04.language and politics in this country can obscure things. Do you
:24:04. > :24:08.not think that the clamour is so loud that unless you say something
:24:08. > :24:13.very striking, unless you make comments which get headlines, you
:24:13. > :24:20.will not get the coverage you actually feel is required? I think
:24:20. > :24:26.that is reasonable. Had been a journalist and also try to get
:24:26. > :24:30.publicity. -- I have been. If he is raising the issue of inequality,
:24:30. > :24:35.that is a massive and growing issue and he should be congratulated on
:24:35. > :24:40.it. Whether we should call individuals immoral, I am not sure.
:24:40. > :24:46.Do you think Jeremy Hunt will survive? I am not sure. He should
:24:46. > :24:50.not. He is responsible for the actions of his special adviser at
:24:50. > :25:00.the same way Alex Salmond is responsible for his special adviser,
:25:00. > :25:02.
:25:02. > :25:05.Geoff Aberdein. Kowtowing with a slick man. Geoff is a good guy, I
:25:05. > :25:14.talk to him about it all but he should not be talking to Robert
:25:14. > :25:22.Mark duck. Adams neck resigned. -- Adams Smith resigned. And he should
:25:22. > :25:27.be out as well. As a former adviser, it seems extraordinary that the
:25:27. > :25:32.this individual off his own bat without any knowledge of his boss,
:25:32. > :25:38.was engaged in these long conversations with their Murdoch
:25:38. > :25:42.organisation. As seems a bit hard to believe. There is no suggestion,
:25:42. > :25:47.with SNP, and that they were doing anything other than they said they
:25:47. > :25:51.were doing. This has caused this to huge a row this week that they
:25:51. > :25:58.genuinely thought this would be a good deal for Scotland. There is no
:25:58. > :26:03.sense that the adviser went rogue. Come on, you would be telling you
:26:03. > :26:08.students to get towed into this story about Geoff Aberdein telling
:26:08. > :26:17.the man from then use of the world, that he would do anything and say
:26:17. > :26:22.anything to help the BSkyB bid. What is Alex Salmond say now about
:26:22. > :26:26.his pal Robert Murdoch, the First Minister of Scotland being hacked?
:26:26. > :26:32.Why has it taken nine years for this to emerge from Strathclyde
:26:32. > :26:40.Police? Dead a know about it? are allegations at this stage. --
:26:40. > :26:44.did they know about it? In terms of Scotland, are you surprised it
:26:44. > :26:50.seems like every investigation into this suggests him problems stop at
:26:50. > :26:57.the border? Is that credible? do not think the problem did stop
:26:57. > :27:04.at the border. I think he was a lot more prevalent a, the phone hacking,
:27:04. > :27:11.than elsewhere. I think it is more than an allegation, if I make so
:27:11. > :27:15.bold, there story of Jack we can all. This endemic problem of the
:27:15. > :27:20.Murdoch empire is one that the first men -- the First Minister is
:27:20. > :27:25.glibly brushing aside, he says everyone was doing it. Everyone was
:27:25. > :27:30.not doing it but the main culprits were his friends, Rupert Murdoch
:27:30. > :27:40.employees. House in the Hindi using this is, the jack McConnell
:27:40. > :27:43.development today? -- how significant easing the says. I do
:27:43. > :27:48.not think anyone in their right mind would defend the First
:27:48. > :27:53.Minister having his phone hacked. In terms of politics, I am not sure
:27:53. > :27:56.what the implications are. This happened in the past and is
:27:56. > :28:01.completely wrong. We have the Leveson Inquiry at the moment and
:28:01. > :28:05.will see the Press Complaints Commission abolished and we are
:28:05. > :28:10.seeing a criminal inquiry, so there are wider implications than in
:28:10. > :28:16.terms of just specifically Scotland. Other than to say, it is a total
:28:16. > :28:20.disgrace. A important news - Ross County has been -- have been
:28:20. > :28:30.promoted, I expect you are thrilled? I was an Inverness
:28:30. > :28:35.Thistle fan. You can come back then. I am a Hearts supporter, so I am
:28:35. > :28:41.looking forward to the next couple of weeks. But you are thrilled
:28:41. > :28:43.about Ross County? I had been celebrating four days. You have