:00:36. > :00:42.Afternoon folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Spain is heading
:00:42. > :00:46.for a massive 100 billion euro bailout of its dodgy banks. But is
:00:46. > :00:51.it big enough? As the Chancellor blames the Euro crisis for
:00:51. > :00:55.Britain's economic woes, we'll get the view from the City. That's our
:00:55. > :00:58.top story. When it comes to reforming our schools, who is the
:00:58. > :01:01.true heir to Blair? Secretary of State Michael Gove or his Labour
:01:01. > :01:05.counterpart, Stephen Twigg? The Shadow Education Secretary joins us
:01:05. > :01:08.for the Sunday interview. And should the Government perform the
:01:09. > :01:18.mother of all U-turns yet and give the go-ahead for a third runaway at
:01:19. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:27.Heathrow? The two sides go head-to- head on airport expansion.
:01:27. > :01:30.Here in Scotland, the number of people affected by the legionnaires
:01:30. > :01:32.outbreak was expected to peak this weekend - we'll have the latest.
:01:32. > :01:35.And the multi-millionaire entrepreneur and philanthropist Sir
:01:35. > :01:45.Tom Hunter on how to create a second Scottish enlightenment. All
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :28:12.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1586 seconds
:28:12. > :28:17.Do we have enough of the big provincial towns? Frankfurt,
:28:17. > :28:24.Germany is a country with strong environmental cues. It has played
:28:24. > :28:34.down an area of the forest to create a new runway. It took five
:28:34. > :28:39.
:28:39. > :28:47.years to get that decision, What what happened if we do not
:28:47. > :28:50.have a new runway? Our economy is based on of the reach a mobile
:28:50. > :28:58.society. You can think of London as an aircraft carrier where people
:28:58. > :29:04.fly in, to their business, and fly out. The Thames estuary is that the
:29:04. > :29:09.far eastern tip of England. There are areas like Reading, Swindon and
:29:09. > :29:17.the rest of the country for which Heathrow is the nearest airport.
:29:17. > :29:21.Let us get real. He has challenged the aviation industry to get real
:29:21. > :29:31.about the facts. Business travel has declined as a result of
:29:31. > :29:37.business confidence and all the rest. We know that passenger it
:29:37. > :29:47.looting on the individual airlines has increased by 20%, said more
:29:47. > :30:01.
:30:01. > :30:06.Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up
:30:06. > :30:09.on the programme. Classroom strikes are off for now, but teachers'
:30:09. > :30:14.unions insist the new curriculum for excellence needs more time and
:30:14. > :30:16.more cash. We hear from the education secretary, Mike Russell.
:30:16. > :30:19.Multi-millionaire entrepreneur and philanthropist Sir Tom Hunter on
:30:19. > :30:24.his vision for a second Scottish enlightenment, and what could make
:30:24. > :30:33.that happen - including full fiscal autonomy. And, is he for or against
:30:33. > :30:37.independence? I have not made up my mind. I am confused, that is where
:30:37. > :30:42.I find myself today, and I am really interested in this stuff,
:30:42. > :30:45.and I am confused. I am looking forward to a positive debate
:30:45. > :30:48.because it is so important. And as Scotland reels from an unexpected
:30:48. > :30:52.outbreak of Legionella, we hear from people in Barrow-in-Furness in
:30:52. > :31:01.Cumbria, who are about to mark the tenth anniversary of the worst
:31:01. > :31:07.outbreak of the disease in the UK. You feel thirsty, you feel hot and
:31:07. > :31:10.sweaty. Your limbs are so weak and then you start to go delirious.
:31:10. > :31:13.A highly critical new report suggests there's no evidence the
:31:13. > :31:17.new Curriculum for Excellence is an effective way of teaching our young
:31:17. > :31:20.people. Teachers say they like it in principle - but don't rule out
:31:20. > :31:30.industrial action over the way it has been implemented. This report
:31:30. > :31:30.
:31:30. > :31:34.from our education correspondent, Seonag MacKinnon.
:31:34. > :31:40.Problems along insoluble in Scottish education. The new
:31:40. > :31:45.curriculum is out to tackle them. Teachers are now free to teach what
:31:45. > :31:53.they feel is interesting. It is hoped this freedom will add more
:31:53. > :31:58.dynamism to the classroom. The family has been trying to get the
:31:58. > :32:02.head to read other changes. For Anna, her education free of exam
:32:02. > :32:05.courses now continues into the third year. We will not be choosing
:32:05. > :32:10.our main subjects from such an early age so we will know better
:32:10. > :32:15.what we want to do. Her mother is concerned about the increased
:32:15. > :32:19.variation in who sits what exams when. They will be some schools to
:32:19. > :32:25.link four subjects, some five or six, so not all children will come
:32:25. > :32:29.out equal. Concerns as well up there and the Royal Society of
:32:29. > :32:34.Edinburgh. In a report this weekend it concludes that evidence for the
:32:34. > :32:40.effectiveness of the new curriculum is nowhere to be found. There are
:32:40. > :32:44.assertions of success but no proper evidence. At the conference of the
:32:45. > :32:49.EIS teaching union this week, concern surfaced in a call for
:32:49. > :32:54.industrial action. Many teachers like the crippling in principle but
:32:55. > :32:57.feel schools need an extra a year to prepare. -- the curriculum.
:32:57. > :33:01.There is no doubt that many teachers believe that the
:33:01. > :33:07.Curriculum for Excellence and the new exams have been hit by
:33:07. > :33:12.bureaucracy. Most private schools and one local council have opted to
:33:12. > :33:16.delay but the bulk of councils see no real need. I do not believe
:33:16. > :33:19.there is a crisis of confidence. There are things we still need to
:33:19. > :33:25.get right but it is worth remembering that the first exams
:33:25. > :33:29.will not be presented for another two years. Two years to prepare and
:33:29. > :33:34.a new package of support such as extra training days. They may help
:33:34. > :33:39.but many teachers remain angry amid widespread claims that they were
:33:39. > :33:45.excluded from government audit of problems. The audit was a scandal,
:33:45. > :33:48.it barely skim the service of the discontent. The problems within the
:33:48. > :33:51.report have yet to materialise so I think there is a great deal of
:33:51. > :33:56.scepticism and then unless the current Secretary to this on his
:33:56. > :34:01.promises them we will be revisiting industrial action. Outside the
:34:01. > :34:05.union conference hall in Dundee and across Scotland, future generations
:34:05. > :34:08.depend on the problems being resolved. We'll speak to the
:34:08. > :34:11.Scottish Education Secretary Mike Russell in a moment, but first,
:34:11. > :34:15.joining me now in Glasgow is the President of the Educational
:34:15. > :34:16.Institute of Scotland, Susan Quinn and in our Edinburgh studio is the
:34:16. > :34:22.Scottish Conservatives' spokesperson for Education, Liz
:34:22. > :34:27.Smith. Do all teachers approve in
:34:27. > :34:31.principle of the Curriculum for Excellence? The vast majority have
:34:31. > :34:35.throughout the years supported the principles of the Curriculum for
:34:35. > :34:40.Excellence. It is nothing new, it has been around for the best part
:34:40. > :34:45.of eight years. It arose out of the national debate for Education and
:34:45. > :34:48.four key capacities, the principles of once that teachers' support, to
:34:48. > :34:52.give a broad education to all children before they move into
:34:52. > :34:56.other aspects of their educational life. Given they have been around
:34:56. > :35:00.for so long why were you at the point this week of saying you are
:35:00. > :35:05.potentially going to go on strike? The debate we had this week was
:35:05. > :35:08.about the national qualifications, it was not about the principles of
:35:08. > :35:12.Curriculum for Excellence. It saddens me that what we are doing
:35:12. > :35:16.now is discussing Curriculum for Excellence in the context of the
:35:16. > :35:20.exams, when it is so much more than that. Eight years ago, when we
:35:20. > :35:24.began the work on Curriculum for Excellence, EIS called on the
:35:24. > :35:28.government to not Lynch new qualifications to the broad general
:35:28. > :35:33.education, to give teachers the chance to implement the broad
:35:33. > :35:36.general education. And then to move on to the new exams. They have not
:35:36. > :35:42.done that and that is why teachers in the secondary sector are
:35:42. > :35:46.concerned. Are you saying that in two years time, the pupils who have
:35:46. > :35:55.to sit these exams will not have been properly prepared? Absolutely
:35:55. > :36:00.not. They will be prepared, they will not be in a position where
:36:00. > :36:03.children are not properly prepared. So there is no need for a delay in
:36:03. > :36:07.the introduction of the Curriculum for Excellence? Curriculum for
:36:07. > :36:11.Excellence is being implemented. We have not finished the final phase
:36:11. > :36:15.of that. The exams or something which sits separately from them.
:36:15. > :36:19.Some teachers say they do not yet have the test exam papers which
:36:19. > :36:24.would enable them to construct the Curriculum for Excellence in
:36:24. > :36:28.schools. Again, the Curriculum for Excellence is about the broad
:36:28. > :36:33.general education aspect. The national qualifications are
:36:33. > :36:40.something separate from fat. That is where the conflict arises. The
:36:40. > :36:42.Curriculum for Excellence, and the broad general education from early
:36:42. > :36:47.years through to the end of third year, is being implemented across
:36:47. > :36:52.Scotland. The concern teachers have in the secondary sector is that
:36:52. > :36:56.that is being done alongside a new set of qualifications. Had they let
:36:56. > :36:59.the qualifications alone and let us get the brought education into
:36:59. > :37:04.place then they would have been time to look at the new
:37:04. > :37:09.qualifications. Liz Smith, you can see why that teachers and parents
:37:09. > :37:14.we have spoken to about this have said it has become very confusing.
:37:14. > :37:18.It is the confusion that is such a shame. Everybody is agreed that the
:37:18. > :37:22.Curriculum for Excellence, in principle, is first class. Far too
:37:22. > :37:24.many of our youngsters are going through school and not engaging
:37:24. > :37:28.with the classroom and the whole principle under which Curriculum
:37:28. > :37:33.for Excellence operates is that greater flexibility and greater
:37:33. > :37:37.relevance. The real problem is that we should never have been in this
:37:37. > :37:40.situation. This confusion should never have happened. It was
:37:40. > :37:44.inevitable, in my opinion, that schools will be ready at different
:37:44. > :37:49.stages. They are different sizes with different structures and it
:37:49. > :37:52.was inevitable that we would have a situation where they would be ready
:37:52. > :37:56.at different times. I think the Scottish government should have
:37:56. > :38:00.recognised that. I also think the Scottish government should have
:38:00. > :38:04.sent out a very clear message about what was expected when. That
:38:04. > :38:07.message has not been forthcoming and that led to the confusion.
:38:07. > :38:13.do you think all this means for pupils who will be sitting the
:38:13. > :38:17.exams in a couple of years? I think the pupils, by and large, are part
:38:17. > :38:21.of the confusion. They have seen their teachers and their parents
:38:21. > :38:24.been confused as they try to get to grips with the new curriculum.
:38:24. > :38:29.There are many schools doing a fantastic job and I am quite sure
:38:29. > :38:34.that these pupils will be ready when the right time comes. Weather
:38:34. > :38:36.can the Secretary has got this wrong is that he has tried to
:38:36. > :38:40.steamroller of the timescale so there everybody was supposed to
:38:41. > :38:45.change all at one time when there was not necessary. Do you think
:38:45. > :38:51.that it is a little bit arbitrary in the sort of stunt as I we can
:38:51. > :38:58.expect from schools over the next couple of years? -- sort of schools
:38:58. > :39:02.-- skills. It is important that we have if flexibility and diversity.
:39:02. > :39:05.That is coming from the teaching profession and many in the
:39:05. > :39:08.educational establishment. What should underpin the whole
:39:08. > :39:12.Curriculum for Excellence is a line that flexibility and that greater
:39:12. > :39:18.diversity to flourish, and that is why we should have had a staged
:39:18. > :39:22.timescale. Susan Quinn, let me pick up on something that Liz Smith
:39:23. > :39:26.mentioned. The relations between the union and the Education
:39:26. > :39:30.Secretary. A past president has said when Mr Russell starts to
:39:31. > :39:36.acknowledge there is an issue he does so grudgingly and insist any a
:39:36. > :39:42.small number of schools require help. This help comes with the
:39:42. > :39:47.sinister, threatening tone. His EIS suggesting that the education
:39:48. > :39:51.secretary has intimidated schools into not expressing their concerns?
:39:52. > :39:56.There is a perception by many teachers in schools that if they
:39:56. > :40:00.had expressed their opinions what will be put upon the will be a
:40:00. > :40:04.visit from the inspectorate. So there is a perception that that is
:40:04. > :40:09.what is there, if you put your head above the parapet to say we need
:40:09. > :40:13.additional support in the new qualifications, and I repeat in the
:40:13. > :40:19.area of the new qualifications, Kemp we have a situation where you
:40:19. > :40:22.will be visited by the inspectorate, and many see that as intimidatory.
:40:22. > :40:26.Is it you're on demand that Mr Russell's man and approaches
:40:26. > :40:30.counter-productive to achieving a good result for pupils? I do not
:40:30. > :40:35.think we should be looking at the personalities of what is counter-
:40:35. > :40:40.productive. If you have said it is a sinister, threatening tone...
:40:40. > :40:46.did not personally saved that. However expressed and said cut. We
:40:46. > :40:49.want to make this support package work. Mr Russell and the rest of
:40:49. > :40:54.government can make it work by putting it into place in the terms
:40:54. > :41:00.that sets the additional days, the additional money and the additional
:41:00. > :41:03.support, putting the resources in place, because teachers want to
:41:03. > :41:05.make Curriculum for Excellence, broad general education, and the
:41:05. > :41:15.new qualifications work for the young people that they are charged
:41:15. > :41:17.
:41:17. > :41:22.with. Thanks both very much indeed. If we start with that point. Of the
:41:22. > :41:26.resources there to sustain this adequately, not just for the first
:41:26. > :41:31.set of people to go through this, but in the future? Absolutely, and
:41:31. > :41:35.additional resources have been brought to bear in the last of the
:41:35. > :41:41.-- in each of the last three years. There is an agreement we were
:41:41. > :41:48.bringing an additional �0.5 million directly to support the teachers
:41:48. > :41:53.themselves. We gave EIS the opportunity to bring forward
:41:53. > :41:57.directly their concerns to education Scotland, to have those
:41:57. > :42:01.examined. My job from the beginning has been to support teachers in a
:42:01. > :42:05.process of change, which we have continued to do, and which we are
:42:05. > :42:07.going to do in every regard. implication there was up the tone
:42:07. > :42:12.that has been set has been intimidating enough to stop
:42:12. > :42:17.teachers coming forward because inspectors will turn up the next
:42:17. > :42:21.day. The inspectors will not turn up. Education Scotland is a body
:42:21. > :42:26.which brings together the inspectors and the support services.
:42:26. > :42:31.I have made it clear that my job, the job of everybody in education,
:42:31. > :42:36.is to support schools and parents and young people. As long as they
:42:36. > :42:39.do what you want. No, as long as we do together what we agreed to do
:42:39. > :42:44.eight years ago, which was to put this programme in and make sure
:42:44. > :42:48.that it goes through to completion. Then me ask you about this ongoing
:42:48. > :42:56.confusion. We hear from parents that the Curriculum for Excellence
:42:56. > :43:06.has widespread support but there are concerns about exams and the
:43:06. > :43:08.
:43:08. > :43:16.public are not making the I think we need to talk to the
:43:16. > :43:20.national parents' forum and dead people like dew into schools --
:43:20. > :43:24.take people like you into schools. I could take you to one dozen
:43:24. > :43:29.schools around Glasgow to see the enthusiasm and commitment of
:43:29. > :43:34.teachers and young people to education which takes them forward
:43:34. > :43:40.in a constructive way. We need to make sure that is what we are doing.
:43:40. > :43:45.There aren't specimen exam papers available until next April saw
:43:45. > :43:50.teachers trying to conduct a course at this stage which will be
:43:50. > :43:54.appropriate are still working in the dark Ages. All the teaching
:43:54. > :43:59.materials are coming forward, all the information is absolutely on
:43:59. > :44:06.track. According to the management board on which the EIS six, the
:44:06. > :44:11.material is there. Physics does not change in its laws, the grammar of
:44:11. > :44:16.French does not change, it is about good teaching. There is very good
:44:16. > :44:21.teaching in Scotland which we are constantly trying to drive up. More
:44:21. > :44:26.than 10 years ago all the political parties in Scotland said we need a
:44:26. > :44:34.more joined up deeper curriculum. It is not easy to change the
:44:34. > :44:38.curriculum but we are almost there. We're actually now in year 10 of 13
:44:38. > :44:43.years of schooling. We have to finish this job by supporting
:44:43. > :44:51.teachers which is precisely what is happening. The Royal Society of
:44:51. > :44:57.Edinburgh has said the curriculum for excellence is know where to be
:44:57. > :45:01.found. There is no proper excellence. These are at the top
:45:01. > :45:07.academics of the next generation. can assure you, they are not. They
:45:07. > :45:12.are looking at one part of the equation, not be full equation. The
:45:12. > :45:16.curriculum for excellence lies internationally, a lot of
:45:16. > :45:21.international scholars have studied this and there is no doubt that
:45:21. > :45:27.this is the way to do education in the modern world. The second place
:45:27. > :45:31.it lies is the actual results we are seeing. We are seeing endless
:45:31. > :45:34.results from primary school all the way through. There are
:45:34. > :45:43.international comparative swear we have turned a corner compared to
:45:43. > :45:49.many others and we are rising again. Does it not bother you that a body
:45:49. > :45:53.is saying this? It bothers me that we are not, as a nation,
:45:53. > :45:58.recognising the great strengths of the curriculum for excellence.
:45:58. > :46:02.Later you will have Tom Hunter, I heard his inspirational speech, the
:46:02. > :46:07.First Minister also commented on the importance of these changes in
:46:07. > :46:14.Scottish classrooms. We need to get behind them and make them work.
:46:14. > :46:23.Areas no strategy on how different parts of the education and skills
:46:23. > :46:27.sector should be compared. released details last year of
:46:27. > :46:34.precisely how that was going to work. We have other reports coming
:46:34. > :46:38.out today, this one has been in the papers today, the figures are from
:46:38. > :46:42.skills development Scotland which says 10,000 publicly-funded
:46:42. > :46:47.apprenticeships when two young people already in jobs. Of course
:46:47. > :46:53.the dead because you have to have a job. This is a disgrace from a
:46:53. > :46:59.Labour Party press release which says unfortunately do understand.
:46:59. > :47:04.You have to support young people. have to explain the question first
:47:04. > :47:09.and then you can respond to it. The question is, at 10,000 publicly-
:47:09. > :47:14.funded apprenticeships when two young people who were in jobs for
:47:14. > :47:18.more than six months already. does not say that. You have to be
:47:18. > :47:24.accurate. A Labour Party press release will say something that is
:47:24. > :47:31.untrue. What it says it is they have been in jobs for up to six
:47:31. > :47:35.months. A young person will be taken in by an employer who will
:47:35. > :47:41.assess their suitability for an apprenticeship. Every young person
:47:41. > :47:46.in Scotland must have a job, that is what distinguishes a Modern
:47:46. > :47:50.apprenticeship, they have to work. This is a party who voted against
:47:50. > :47:53.modern apprenticeships, they are now running down Scotland's young
:47:53. > :47:59.people. I would call that a disgrace because we should be
:47:59. > :48:03.working together to make sure young people get opportunities. 25,000 of
:48:03. > :48:08.them last year. As a nation we have to keep together on these things
:48:08. > :48:13.because we have a problem and if we do that we will do it well. Let me
:48:13. > :48:20.press on a couple of points. This is from a Labour Party press
:48:20. > :48:23.release. The response is from skills development Scotland. Skills
:48:23. > :48:27.development Scotland does say it mentions the figures of being in
:48:27. > :48:31.jobs for six months or less but also relating to that are you
:48:31. > :48:37.categorically saying here that 10,000 publicly-funded
:48:37. > :48:42.apprenticeships did not go do young people who were in jobs for six
:48:42. > :48:46.months? Every single modern apprenticeship is helping young
:48:46. > :48:54.people in their modern Terriers to get jobs. We should be celebrating
:48:54. > :48:59.that not criticising it. -- Modern apprenticeships -- modern Terriers.
:48:59. > :49:04.Did they not already have jobs? They had a learning opportunity and
:49:04. > :49:08.went into an even better one. Thank goodness we put our money into
:49:09. > :49:18.supporting young people. You are seeing modern apprenticeships by
:49:19. > :49:19.
:49:19. > :49:24.the sustained or extended in some cases existing employment? That is
:49:25. > :49:29.precisely what we should be doing as an Asian. Every were focusing on
:49:29. > :49:35.that be would be building the type of nation we need for the future.
:49:35. > :49:40.Are you focusing enough on the young people who cannot get jobs?
:49:40. > :49:44.No 16 to 19-year-old of any description who does not have a job
:49:44. > :49:49.will get education or training. We recognise the disaster of the
:49:49. > :49:54.Thatcherite years when there was a lost generation. We are determined
:49:54. > :49:58.to ensure that will not happen again. Labour Party press releases
:49:58. > :50:04.running down job schemes that they never voted for our an utter
:50:04. > :50:09.disgrace. Thank you for coming in, Mike Russell. Now, flags change the
:50:09. > :50:13.way people think is the finding of research by political scientists at
:50:13. > :50:19.Strathclyde University. They asked about issues like national pride
:50:19. > :50:24.and the economy. More than 10,000 people across the UK took part in
:50:24. > :50:29.the online survey but what they did not also realise was that the
:50:29. > :50:33.responses to national flags were also being tested. A couple of
:50:33. > :50:38.months ago on this programme and on other parts of the BBC we asked you
:50:39. > :50:43.to let us know what you felt about the nation. More than 10,000 of you
:50:43. > :50:48.click on the Strathclyde University website to answer a quick quiz.
:50:48. > :50:54.This is the sort of thing they saw, a series of quick questions asking
:50:54. > :50:57.about the economy and that the top of each page a little flag. Even
:50:57. > :51:05.though they answered similar questions, not everyone saw the
:51:05. > :51:10.same thing. The survey randomly designed each person a different
:51:10. > :51:14.design depending on where the left. People who said they lived in
:51:14. > :51:19.Scotland might have seen a series of pages like best, the same
:51:19. > :51:23.questions but this time with a Saltire. In England you might have
:51:23. > :51:27.seen as St George's cross. The point was not just to find out how
:51:28. > :51:33.people felt about the nation but to find out how seeing different flags
:51:33. > :51:39.might altar how they feel. The findings are that flags do make a
:51:39. > :51:46.difference. Firstly an emotional issue, national pride. Over all
:51:47. > :51:51.those who lived in England felt negatively about being English.
:51:51. > :51:56.People who were shown the Union flag felt more proud of being
:51:56. > :52:01.English but were still on the negative side of the graph. Compare
:52:01. > :52:05.that to the Scots, neither the Saltire nor union flag had a
:52:05. > :52:10.significant effect on the national pride which was on the whole
:52:10. > :52:14.confident. On both sides of the border people who sought the
:52:14. > :52:18.neutral or Union flag felt positive about the current economic
:52:18. > :52:24.situation but look what happened if they saw either of the national
:52:24. > :52:28.flags, it fell into the negative. The Saltire had a stronger negative
:52:28. > :52:34.effect on people's feelings about the current financial situation in
:52:34. > :52:39.Scotland. That could be a sign of anxiety rather than reminding
:52:39. > :52:44.people of being Scottish or British it makes them feel less in control
:52:44. > :52:49.of the situation in the UK and hard done by. Or could it be an
:52:49. > :52:57.unconscious feeling by the Scots that doing it alone would be better
:52:57. > :53:01.in an independent economy? These flags seemed to trigger unconscious
:53:02. > :53:09.gut responses which applies to allegedly emotional issues like
:53:09. > :53:19.national pride. We need to attach plenty of caveat to best, not least
:53:19. > :53:29.of all because many of them watch this programme we could expect them
:53:29. > :53:29.
:53:30. > :53:33.to be more political savvy than most. During the forthcoming
:53:33. > :53:40.European football championships the George's cross will be hard to
:53:40. > :53:48.avoid. If you want to change how people feel, put out more flags,
:53:48. > :53:58.but which ones? With me in the studio is someone from the research
:53:58. > :53:58.
:53:58. > :54:02.team at Strathclyde University and another professor. Even with the
:54:02. > :54:07.national question like the economy there does still seem to be some
:54:07. > :54:13.emotional reaction when there is a flag around? We thought this was
:54:13. > :54:18.interesting because there is a tendency to distinguish between the
:54:18. > :54:23.emotional gut responses to a national flag and more rational
:54:23. > :54:27.opinions about the economy. When you are triggering national
:54:27. > :54:33.identity which is traditionally associated with your gut instincts
:54:33. > :54:39.it also affected how you looked at the economy. National questions
:54:39. > :54:48.seem to be shaped when people triggered more emotional responses
:54:48. > :54:53.to their national identity. How do you actually interpret the
:54:53. > :54:56.response? If somebody sees as Saltire in the background and they
:54:56. > :55:01.have a specific response to it you may think that is because they do
:55:01. > :55:07.not think Scotland can survive independently or because they are
:55:07. > :55:11.frustrated at what they see as Scotland's resources going south.
:55:11. > :55:16.We have to be really clear in this research it is not representative,
:55:16. > :55:21.it is a particular set of people who responded to the survey and the
:55:21. > :55:28.dapper we get does not allow you to interpret Withey said what the dead.
:55:28. > :55:32.-- the data. -- what the dead. This sets up our next research programme
:55:32. > :55:39.which is to look at when people are triggered in a particular direction
:55:39. > :55:44.what made them do that? Research only ever conclusively proves the
:55:44. > :55:50.need for more research? In this particular case it was an
:55:50. > :55:56.experiment rather than a survey. Tom, what do you make of what is
:55:56. > :56:02.coming out here? Should parties wrap themselves up in flags or not?
:56:02. > :56:07.There are two things. The first thing has been implied already that
:56:07. > :56:12.decisions on big issues are not necessarily completely rational or
:56:12. > :56:17.completely emotional. They are a combination of both. The second
:56:17. > :56:22.thing is that this is a very unusual piece of research. It is
:56:22. > :56:27.not meant to be representative but what this kind of research does is
:56:27. > :56:32.stir new questions rather than in a sense give new answers. One of the
:56:32. > :56:37.things about flags recently and not least in the UK, by that I mean
:56:37. > :56:42.Northern Ireland as well, is that flag use has become pretty heavily
:56:43. > :56:47.politicised. You will note probably from this research that as far as
:56:47. > :56:51.England is concerned there are a small minority in England who do
:56:51. > :56:57.not regard the Union Jack as something positive because it has
:56:57. > :57:01.been taken over, as some say, by extreme right-wing groups. Up here
:57:01. > :57:06.in Scotland other people might have concerns about the Union Jack for
:57:06. > :57:09.different reasons. In Northern Ireland these symbols are extra
:57:09. > :57:15.ordinarily controversial and important. The final thing I would
:57:15. > :57:21.say about this is we should not overestimate, in terms of national
:57:21. > :57:26.identity, any single symbol. National identity is a confused mix
:57:26. > :57:33.of everything from mythology through to landscape, through to a
:57:33. > :57:39.belief in who our heroes are. What makes us like that? The flag is not
:57:39. > :57:43.irrelevant but it is not the only flag. Does it make it difficult for
:57:43. > :57:48.politicians if you are seeing I will put forward some very
:57:48. > :57:52.persuasive arguments based on evidence and be confident I can
:57:52. > :57:57.persuade you but what we are actually seeing here is it does not
:57:57. > :58:03.matter what the evidence says, something else is influencing an
:58:03. > :58:08.emotional response. What is influencing that? Is it your
:58:08. > :58:13.upbringing, what you Peden has got? We are seeing positive psychology
:58:13. > :58:17.here. It is a totality. I think it is fantastic that this is the case
:58:17. > :58:22.that politicians, their spin doctors and their focus groups can
:58:22. > :58:28.understand what makes us tick. I would see this as a positive and
:58:28. > :58:33.refreshing aspect of the human race. What is happening now do you think?
:58:33. > :58:37.The big things to have a look at our the different symbols that
:58:37. > :58:42.relate to identity. Breaking that down further I think is interesting.
:58:42. > :58:46.The relationship that we find between the Union Jack and positive
:58:46. > :58:51.feelings of English identity were quite interesting and in particular
:58:51. > :58:55.this discussion about English identity at the moment, whether or
:58:55. > :59:05.not that is synonymous between UK and English identity would be quite
:59:05. > :59:12.
:59:12. > :59:18.England has assumed since the 18th century that England and Britain
:59:18. > :59:22.are synonymous, so there is no need for an English identity. Now the
:59:22. > :59:29.flag issue is part of that struggle to find an identity in a territory
:59:29. > :59:35.that is quite controversial. Would there be any benefit in getting the
:59:35. > :59:39.responses of an individual to the different flags, as opposed to a
:59:39. > :59:45.series of individuals with the same flag, which is what happened in
:59:45. > :59:51.this exercise? There are lots of different ways that you could
:59:51. > :59:56.conduct this exercise. The problem is that if you expose the same
:59:56. > :00:01.person to a number of ways of doing it then that affects the results.
:00:01. > :00:05.More research to be done. Definitely.
:00:05. > :00:09.It's been exactly a week since it emerged that there had been an
:00:09. > :00:12.outbreak of Legionnaires' disease in Edinburgh. Cases of the deadly
:00:12. > :00:15.disease are expected to decrease this week but health officials say
:00:15. > :00:19.they cannot yet be sure the outbreak has reached its peak.
:00:19. > :00:28.Let's cross to the newsroom now for an update with Andrew Kerr. Andrew,
:00:28. > :00:33.what's the latest? The Health Secretary, Nicholas Sturgeon, will
:00:33. > :00:38.once again chair a meeting at 2pm this afternoon of all the key
:00:38. > :00:43.bodies involved in trying to work on this outbreak. After that
:00:43. > :00:49.meeting we will hear at 3pm to latest update on the number of
:00:49. > :00:54.suspected cases. The latest figure we have from yesterday were 80
:00:54. > :00:58.confirmed and suspected cases of Legionnaires' disease. Cases are
:00:58. > :01:02.expected to decrease this week but health officials cannot yet be sure
:01:02. > :01:07.that the outbreak has reached his peak. At the moment we are still
:01:07. > :01:12.looking at the source of the outbreak. Four cooling towers Hart
:01:12. > :01:19.suspected in four sites in Edinburgh. An improvement notice
:01:19. > :01:23.has been served on North British Distillery. We will bring the
:01:23. > :01:26.latest update here on BBC Scotland at 3pm.
:01:26. > :01:29.The unfolding situation in Edinburgh has brought back memories
:01:29. > :01:32.for the community of Barrow-in- Furness in Cumbria - which is about
:01:32. > :01:36.to commemorate the tenth anniversary of the worst outbreak
:01:36. > :01:45.of Legionnaires' in the UK. Almost 200 people in the town contracted
:01:45. > :01:49.the disease and seven people died. At first Bill Merewood thought his
:01:49. > :01:57.wife Christine had a bad dose of the flu - but within days she was
:01:57. > :02:00.fighting for her life. The Saturday morning the doctor checked and the
:02:00. > :02:04.sooner she by dint of hospitals they did further checked and
:02:04. > :02:08.confirm that it was Legionnaires' disease. We did not realise how
:02:08. > :02:11.serious it was, even then. The 56- year-old, who was originally from
:02:11. > :02:15.Rutherglen, was one of seven people to die in the Legionnaires'
:02:15. > :02:18.outbreak in Barrow-in-Furness in August 2002. Brenda Sedgewick was
:02:18. > :02:27.one of the 180 people who contracted the disease, she says
:02:27. > :02:35.she's lucky to be alive. You feel thirsty, you feel hot and sweaty.
:02:35. > :02:42.Your limbs are so weak and then you start to go delirious. And then I
:02:42. > :02:46.got septicaemia and pneumonia, all the organs failed, induced coma,
:02:46. > :02:50.and they did not know how or when they brought the out of the Como
:02:50. > :02:53.what would happen. Jo Davis covered the story for the North West
:02:53. > :03:01.Evening Mail, she remembers the atmosphere in the town as the
:03:01. > :03:06.number of cases diagnosed rapidly increased. Because nobody knew
:03:06. > :03:10.where the outbreak occurred, nobody knew how to protect themselves. It
:03:10. > :03:16.was a very concerning time. Then we had the very sad news that some
:03:16. > :03:20.people had died and we just could not comprehend that this was
:03:20. > :03:24.happening in a small town like this. The source of the outbreak was
:03:24. > :03:27.traced here - an arts complex in the town centre. It was discovered
:03:27. > :03:34.that contaminated water had been leaking from an air conditioning
:03:34. > :03:38.system into this alley way. They all said that it was down this
:03:38. > :03:43.particular alley so it was fairly obvious that it was discharging
:03:43. > :03:48.into the alley way. Although there were one or two industrial sources
:03:48. > :03:51.that we had to eliminate as well. The task facing the team in
:03:51. > :03:56.Edinburgh is considerably larger. Barrow Borough Council didn't want
:03:56. > :03:59.to take part in this film. It was fined, along with one of its
:03:59. > :04:05.architects, for breaches of health and safety. It's almost ten years
:04:05. > :04:15.on but emotions are still raw. There are lessons to be learned,
:04:15. > :04:18.
:04:18. > :04:22.are on there? I still get a lot of flashbacks, thinking they should
:04:22. > :04:26.not have happened. If things were followed rightly, it should not
:04:26. > :04:29.have happened. Like he should not have happened in Scotland, but
:04:29. > :04:33.these things do. The question of how prepared the
:04:33. > :04:36.economy is to withstand a deterioration in the rest of Europe
:04:36. > :04:39.over the coming months was one of the issues discussed at the
:04:39. > :04:42.Business in Parliament conference at Holyrood this week. We'll be
:04:42. > :04:44.hearing from the entrepreneur Sir Tom Hunter shortly, but first our
:04:44. > :04:54.reporter Gilly Mathieson has been talking to businesses across
:04:54. > :04:59.
:04:59. > :05:02.Scotland to find out their concerns. One of flight's little luxuries.
:05:02. > :05:09.Scotland's food and drink industry is continuing to boom with all-time
:05:09. > :05:15.high exports of �5.4 bn last year. But despite record sales, the
:05:15. > :05:18.credit squeeze is having an impact. It is making us more careful with
:05:18. > :05:23.whom we give credit to. We have taken some losses per share were
:05:23. > :05:27.people who have gone bankrupt and it puts uncertainty into the
:05:27. > :05:34.investment programme. We are investing but the tears and her
:05:34. > :05:39.first time. In Edinburgh, 14th Alex is seeing a growth in output after
:05:39. > :05:43.winning back orders from the Far East -- Maclaren Plastics. We have
:05:43. > :05:50.to think inevitably, we have to maximise the amount of time that we
:05:50. > :05:54.use our planned for, and generally become as competitive as we can.
:05:54. > :06:00.was the ambition of Alison Grieves to move production of her products
:06:00. > :06:03.from China to her business HQ in Edinburgh. We have price matching
:06:03. > :06:09.here on our doorstep which is propelling us forward and it does
:06:09. > :06:14.dispel the myth that manufacturing in the Far East is a lot cheaper.
:06:14. > :06:18.Safetray began as a start-up three years ago and is now exporting
:06:18. > :06:25.across the world but it had to exchange equity for capital in
:06:25. > :06:28.order to expand. Safetray as a company has benefited from doing
:06:28. > :06:32.that, however there are other high- growth companies that are still
:06:32. > :06:36.finding it really tough to get that money. The factory is working
:06:36. > :06:42.around the clock but its owner police that uncertainty over the
:06:42. > :06:48.referendum could lose him business. We are not quite sure when
:06:48. > :06:57.developing products about putting new product lines down. There is
:06:57. > :07:00.talk about it and it does concern us for the future. Sandra
:07:00. > :07:05.Paterson's business is being mounted by Entrepreneurial Spark,
:07:05. > :07:10.an initiative supported by a Sir Tom Hunter, of giving free office
:07:10. > :07:15.space and support to allow her to expand. We have been able to use
:07:15. > :07:20.the money and resources that we would have spent on offices and
:07:20. > :07:24.space on a staff, we have taken on a modern apprentice and a full-time
:07:24. > :07:28.manager. Scotland is a nation of inventors who shaped the modern
:07:28. > :07:37.world, but with challenging time to cross the globe, what more can we
:07:37. > :07:41.be doing today to insure business thrives in this uncertain world.
:07:41. > :07:46.Sir Tom Hunter was the key speaker at the business conference in
:07:46. > :07:51.Holyrood. Just after that speech he told me we should be setting our
:07:51. > :07:55.sights on a new Scottish Enlightenment. In these the
:07:55. > :07:59.collaboration of business, education, politicians, trade
:07:59. > :08:04.unions, the third sector. Scotland is small enough to be able to do
:08:04. > :08:10.this. Indeed, I think we need to do it or would be left behind. Do we
:08:10. > :08:15.have enough of the fiscal levers to do it? Again, I am for fiscal
:08:15. > :08:19.autonomy for very simple reasons. If you were a business that any had
:08:19. > :08:23.one side of the equation, which was you have the cheque book but no
:08:23. > :08:30.control over hope to raise the finance, that is a recipe for
:08:30. > :08:33.disaster. I think Scotland should have both sides of that equation,
:08:33. > :08:38.which is fiscal autonomy. Can that rain would be established in
:08:38. > :08:42.Scotland stays within the UK or do we have to start with a clean
:08:43. > :08:48.slate? I do not know the answer to that question. I am willing to
:08:48. > :08:54.listen. I am really interested in this debate but we need to have
:08:54. > :09:01.that debate. One thing I do know is we cannot put things on hold for
:09:01. > :09:05.two years while we worry about this. We have to make changes today.
:09:05. > :09:10.that a concern for you, that the constitutional debate will
:09:10. > :09:16.overshadow everything? If people go, OK, we will wait until we know,
:09:16. > :09:20.then two years as an awful long time in today's business world.
:09:20. > :09:25.pot of the key issues in this debate of most interest to you?
:09:25. > :09:28.What will most interest the Scottish people, everybody will say
:09:28. > :09:32.how was it could to affect me? Everybody will be slightly
:09:32. > :09:40.different. I think it is for the politicians to answer these
:09:40. > :09:44.questions. What interests me? One of the key things for staying in
:09:44. > :09:50.the union, is it just the status quo, or can there be more positive
:09:50. > :09:55.things to come out of staying in the Union? If it is independence,
:09:55. > :10:02.Wallaby to me as a businessman? What is going to happen with our
:10:02. > :10:06.tax regime? Will we be able to export more easily? All of these
:10:06. > :10:10.sorts of questions need to be answered. Do you think there is any
:10:10. > :10:16.value in moving the day forward, or de think we need the time to have
:10:16. > :10:21.the full debate? So far, I believe we need the time because we have
:10:21. > :10:27.not even started yet. What sort of effect you think the constitutional
:10:27. > :10:32.debate is having on the business environment? My impression is I
:10:32. > :10:37.understand big utility companies, big companies who want to. Capital
:10:37. > :10:41.many years in advance would be St which environment and by deploying
:10:41. > :10:48.this capital into? I think there is uncertainty for them and I
:10:48. > :10:57.understand that. The breast of it, I do not really see it holding back
:10:57. > :11:01.investment. What impact is the euro crisis having on Scottish business?
:11:01. > :11:08.The European question, up from a businessman point of view, is
:11:08. > :11:13.number one of the present time. But the very fact that, faced with
:11:13. > :11:20.calamity, the European Union cannot actually get its act together and
:11:20. > :11:26.sold it, actually answers the question. This union is not really
:11:26. > :11:31.be union, it is unworkable. 17 countries in single currency, or
:11:31. > :11:37.many more countries tried come together. The very fact they have
:11:37. > :11:41.not been able to come when the stakes are so high and fix this
:11:41. > :11:46.tells me everything about trying to herd everybody with very different
:11:46. > :11:55.agendas together. So what do you think is the answer? Could this,
:11:55. > :12:01.thing that is way above my pay scale! It is very high, then!
:12:01. > :12:06.think one of the interesting things would be if Greece was to exit the
:12:06. > :12:13.next he make a coat of it then European politicians would be
:12:13. > :12:19.really worried. But I think change news to happened there. I do not
:12:19. > :12:22.know what the changes, but that status quo is not acceptable.
:12:22. > :12:28.your opinion that the Westminster government is right to be as
:12:28. > :12:34.unsupportive as it is being at the moment? I think Britain is in a
:12:34. > :12:42.better place by not joining the European single currency,
:12:42. > :12:48.definitely. Our currency conflate, which is important. I am not for a
:12:48. > :12:54.federal Europe. Do you see any problems with Scotland where it to
:12:54. > :12:59.become independent continuing to use the paint? Had he not think so.
:12:59. > :13:04.But some scare mongering exist, but these are the questions that we
:13:04. > :13:09.need to get to. Can we keep the pound? Can we set our own interest
:13:09. > :13:14.rates? These are the questions that need answered, not whether we are
:13:14. > :13:21.going to have a flag or whatever, that is to be dealt with later. Let
:13:21. > :13:26.us deal with the big questions first. Property retail was badly
:13:26. > :13:31.affected, how difficult has it been for you? We have had to reinvent
:13:31. > :13:38.ourselves. For many years, our business was going in an upward any
:13:38. > :13:44.direction. But, frankly, through our own fault, we lost the focus.
:13:44. > :13:48.People say, maybe nobody saw the downturn coming. Yes, they did.
:13:48. > :13:54.Clever people saw the downturn coming and made lots of money from
:13:54. > :13:59.it. We just were not good at it, therefore I have to look at myself,
:13:59. > :14:04.take responsibility and we intend. We have had to take some tough
:14:04. > :14:14.decisions, some tough medicine, but we have done that, we have
:14:14. > :14:16.
:14:16. > :14:25.regrouped, and I'm glad to say we What is it about as as Scots? Are
:14:25. > :14:32.we more risk adverse or less business savvy? I do not know. I do
:14:32. > :14:38.wonder sometimes if we have failed but I am not giving up. If we look
:14:38. > :14:46.at Scotland's history. Where I was brought up was a deep coal-mining
:14:46. > :14:51.community. We were dominated by a these kind of industries. When I
:14:51. > :14:57.was at school I was told go down the pit, a job for life, someone
:14:57. > :15:03.else will take care of you. But guess what, no coalmines in
:15:03. > :15:08.Scotland any more, no shipbuilding. We are still educating our children
:15:08. > :15:16.by and large the same but into a very different world. There are no
:15:16. > :15:19.jobs for life any more. We need to be equipping our kids with a can-do
:15:19. > :15:24.attitude, an independent thought and a questioning mind that can
:15:24. > :15:28.deal with whatever is going to come their way. I do not know what is
:15:28. > :15:33.going to happen in the next 20 years but I know change is going to
:15:33. > :15:36.be rapid and if Scotland is going to be at the forefront of that we
:15:36. > :15:43.meet a generation that feels confident in this ever-changing
:15:43. > :15:48.world. What would give them that confidence? An education that
:15:48. > :15:55.instils that in them. You only experience of education you were
:15:55. > :16:01.talking about. My ear -- Real Education was working in my dad's
:16:01. > :16:07.shot from a very early age. Business was talked about around
:16:07. > :16:11.the kitchen table. His business something you can learn or is it a
:16:11. > :16:17.personal characteristic rather than an intellectual exercise? Nature
:16:17. > :16:20.and nurture is the big question. You are going to have your natural
:16:20. > :16:24.born entrepreneur's and you're a natural born sports people but with
:16:24. > :16:30.a bit of encouragement and the right education we can all become a
:16:30. > :16:37.bit more entrepreneurial. To get back to the constitutional issue,
:16:37. > :16:41.should it be a simple yes or no on the ballot paper? I think it is
:16:41. > :16:46.interesting. I think the Scottish National Party cannot really goal
:16:46. > :16:51.for a yes or no if they think they are going to lose because then they
:16:51. > :16:57.will say there is no mandate to govern. At some point they are
:16:57. > :17:01.going to have to say will we put a third question on the ballot paper.
:17:01. > :17:06.Once the third question goes on I think it is inevitable that they
:17:06. > :17:12.will not get a clean yes. Do you think it is inevitable there will
:17:12. > :17:18.be a devo max question? I do not know. I am talking -- watching with
:17:18. > :17:23.interest. Do you very good instincts suggest that? I have not
:17:23. > :17:28.made up my mind. I am confused and I am really interested in this
:17:28. > :17:34.stuff. I am looking forward to a positive debate because it is so
:17:35. > :17:39.important. It has not been positive until now do you think? I think it
:17:39. > :17:44.has been skirmishes around the edges and a bit of a pantomime.
:17:45. > :17:50.When you decide will you go public about your decision before you
:17:50. > :17:53.vote? I am conscious that I have one vote the same as you have and I
:17:53. > :18:00.am conscious of what it should be but I think I will make up my mind
:18:00. > :18:05.and then I will think of what to do. So you may go public? Some people
:18:05. > :18:10.will say it could be persuasive if somebody with a successful business
:18:10. > :18:17.profile like you have, if you decide it is a good idea, it could
:18:17. > :18:24.be persuasive. Do you accept that? You do not have any false modesty?
:18:24. > :18:29.I think it is a burden. I have got to decide whether I want to play
:18:29. > :18:35.that role or not. I think first of all I have got to find out what I
:18:35. > :18:39.really think. A burden in what sense? If I thought other people
:18:39. > :18:46.were going to go the way I was going to go it makes it even more
:18:46. > :18:52.important that I get it right. Tom Hunter there, let's cross back
:18:52. > :18:56.over to Andrew for the lunchtime news. The number of young people
:18:56. > :19:01.getting apprenticeships has been mismatched according to Scottish
:19:01. > :19:06.Labour. They claim many had already been working in a job for over six
:19:06. > :19:12.months. The Scottish Government say they are committed to maximising
:19:12. > :19:17.employability for young people. What the Government are doing is
:19:17. > :19:23.very bad gene people in work as apprentices while people on the
:19:23. > :19:29.dole queue are suffering as a consequence. A man has died at a
:19:29. > :19:36.music festival in Loch Ness. He took ill in the main arena last
:19:36. > :19:43.night and died in a nearby hospital a short time later. The Olympic
:19:43. > :19:48.Torch has arrived in Scotland's Islands. Thousands of people turned
:19:48. > :19:53.out to see it. Our reporter is following its progress. We are
:19:53. > :19:57.flying in the next hour or so to Shetland and from there it will
:19:57. > :20:04.split, it goes into a Norwegian longboat and the rest of the flame
:20:04. > :20:09.will go around Lerwick, then we will head to Stornoway. Three
:20:09. > :20:15.islands in one day for the torch. We hope that the torch and the
:20:15. > :20:20.flame will be enriched by its visit to Orkney. Now a look at the
:20:20. > :20:25.weather. Nothing too dramatic happening this afternoon. A lot of
:20:25. > :20:29.cloud around. We will see some brightness. We will see outbreaks
:20:29. > :20:36.of patchy light rain or drizzle continuing in the Central Lowlands
:20:36. > :20:44.in particular and across the south- west. It will be quite cool. That
:20:44. > :20:50.is all for now. Our next bulletin is at 6: 20 this evening. Thank you
:20:50. > :21:00.for that. This week it is a political who's to at the Leveson
:21:00. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:18.Inquiry. I will hand you back to my colleague for more. David Cameron
:21:18. > :21:23.is up on Thursday. Many people before him, you will be spoiled for
:21:23. > :21:29.things to write about all over the Leveson Inquiry. That's right. They
:21:29. > :21:35.will be struggling for top billing. All we need is some gumboots and a
:21:35. > :21:39.pop up tend. I think they will cancel each other out and the
:21:39. > :21:44.issues may be lost. The most interesting will be David Cameron.
:21:44. > :21:52.Did he come to a deal with the Murdoch corporation to support
:21:52. > :22:02.their bid for BSkyB before it the 2010 election? The Channel 4
:22:02. > :22:08.
:22:08. > :22:13.Dispatches documentary tomorrow will claim exactly that. How much
:22:13. > :22:18.do you think he will be able to see given that there is a police
:22:18. > :22:28.investigation under way? I am sorry, I think Ian did not hear me asking
:22:28. > :22:34.that question. I get, sorry, my apologies. -- I did. There is
:22:34. > :22:39.clearly an issue here, Andy Coulson the former No. 10 adviser who was
:22:39. > :22:44.the former News of the World editor, he has been charged with perjury
:22:44. > :22:54.following comments he made in relation to phone hacking in the
:22:54. > :22:54.
:22:54. > :22:58.Tommy Sheridan case. There are complexities here. And what do you
:22:58. > :23:03.think will be the key points potentially to come out of the
:23:03. > :23:07.Leveson Inquiry this week? Ironically this inquiry was meant
:23:07. > :23:12.to be set up because of the phone hacking issue. The legal problems
:23:12. > :23:18.mean that it is the one issue they have been unable to delve into very
:23:18. > :23:24.much. There is suspicion Alex Salmond's phone could have been
:23:24. > :23:28.hacked. Police are looking at allegations that the form of his
:23:28. > :23:38.dead and the phone of the former First Minister Jack McConnell had
:23:38. > :23:41.
:23:41. > :23:44.been hacked. -- phone of his aide. He had this relationship with the
:23:44. > :23:50.Murdoch press in Scotland where they were very supportive in the
:23:50. > :23:56.run up to the last election. The one to keep them on side for the
:23:56. > :24:01.referendum campaign. There is that issue and there is also Salmond's
:24:01. > :24:06.adviser appealing to say that they would be happy to pick up the phone
:24:06. > :24:11.to Jeremy Hunt in regards to the BSkyB bid if that would be helpful
:24:11. > :24:21.to the Murdoch Corporation. These are the two big issues. Alex
:24:21. > :24:25.
:24:25. > :24:32.Salmond wanted his the in the limelight at Leveson -- the -- day.
:24:32. > :24:35.Before he came forward and told us if his phone had been hacked.
:24:35. > :24:44.appropriate for the First Minister to decline to answer that issue
:24:44. > :24:54.about phone hacking? I was applying the rule of what would happen if
:24:54. > :24:58.the situation had been reversed. I think the SNP would be having a go
:24:58. > :25:04.at a Labour First Minister for doing this. He is going on a
:25:04. > :25:13.precedent which has been set by the UK coalition Government, by David
:25:13. > :25:17.Cameron who himself has said his connections with Jeremy Hunt and
:25:17. > :25:24.the phone hacking scandal were to be examined by the Leveson
:25:24. > :25:28.inquiries so there was no need for any further investigation. I think
:25:28. > :25:33.the Scottish public have already got the message here. We have got a
:25:33. > :25:38.newspaper magnate who was so powerful and influential that no
:25:38. > :25:45.politician, David Cameron, Alex Salmond, to resist them. They all
:25:45. > :25:50.wanted to get into bed with Murdoch because they thought Murdoch was
:25:50. > :25:54.the way to win elections. I do not think this will she that public
:25:54. > :25:59.perception very much. The question now is what happens about it. I am
:25:59. > :26:04.getting very worried because we often focus on these extremist
:26:04. > :26:13.issues and forget that Leveson is about press regulation. He is
:26:13. > :26:20.minded to bring statutory members - - statutory rules to punish members
:26:20. > :26:26.of the press. I think if that is going to happen depress should get
:26:26. > :26:33.in there early and see if there is going to be a new statute then line
:26:34. > :26:37.one has to be freedom of the press in Britain. There is a danger that
:26:38. > :26:42.because everyone has been so interested in some of the details
:26:42. > :26:46.this could bring about a fundamental change in what the
:26:46. > :26:55.press can report, what kind of investigations, have we missed that
:26:55. > :27:02.picture? I think sadly that Leveson on a daily basis has degenerated
:27:02. > :27:08.into a soap opera. Did murder by address for Rebekah Brooks? Real a
:27:08. > :27:13.sideshow issues that has changed this from assets than to give media
:27:13. > :27:18.debate. David Cameron is at least able to stand up now and do
:27:19. > :27:24.anything. He instituted the Leveson inquiry to try to get away from
:27:24. > :27:29.them. I think that short-term political opportunism, the press
:27:29. > :27:36.may well find themselves in a difficult situation. I think we
:27:36. > :27:40.have seen some people wake up to best, one man some weeks ago was
:27:40. > :27:45.able to stand up and it was seen as part of his future leadership
:27:45. > :27:49.ambitions possibly. He was able to stand up as a former journalist and
:27:49. > :27:54.say hang on a minute, let's look at where we are going with this, of
:27:54. > :27:59.what the future press will look like and what it will mean for our
:27:59. > :28:04.democracy in the UK if we go down this road. We have seen people
:28:04. > :28:11.wanting to get through it without any mud sticking to them and to
:28:11. > :28:16.just go with the fashion seeing it has been a disgrace, it has been
:28:16. > :28:20.terrible, one newspaper who had an out of control culture of doing
:28:20. > :28:25.things that were not journalism. Does that mean proper journalism
:28:25. > :28:29.will suffer as a result? There have been too many people around the
:28:29. > :28:34.sides of best like the Guardian with their own agenda, people have
:28:34. > :28:38.to weaken up and realise what it will mean for all of us. We are out