:00:48. > :00:58.Good morning and welcome to this Sunday politics. Does anyone it
:00:58. > :01:04.really know what the leader of the Labour Party really stands for? The
:01:04. > :01:11.biggest union boss wants to purge of the party of New Labour Blairite.
:01:11. > :01:18.He wants to the Labour leader to support calls for a general strike.
:01:18. > :01:21.Should he? Nick Clegg told the Lib-Dems are
:01:22. > :01:31.they are now the third party of government, but can be really
:01:32. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:39.clawed their way back into contention for the next election?
:01:40. > :01:49.Will it Johann Lamont's policy shift into votes at the ballot box?
:01:50. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :31:33.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1783 seconds
:31:33. > :31:36.And the cuts to the police civilian It can been done entirely within
:31:36. > :31:41.the law. It will show the government that they have to think
:31:41. > :31:45.again. The reason we see that is because the people we represent all
:31:45. > :31:52.that if we do not oppose what is happening, they will regret it for
:31:52. > :31:57.decades to come. You think the government will say that they will
:31:57. > :32:02.stop this course and will have a new plan because of a strike? It is
:32:02. > :32:09.inconceivable. If you had the whole of the public behind you, it is
:32:09. > :32:19.feasible that might happen. But you will not. It is not going to happen.
:32:19. > :32:26.There is not the Wellspring of support. To simply go out on strike
:32:26. > :32:32.generally, you will not that everybody to do so, within Nineties,
:32:32. > :32:36.you will be coming back with nothing achieved. You have a very
:32:36. > :32:42.pessimistic outlook. If that we tell you something about the people
:32:42. > :32:46.I represent. The majority of am earn less than �20,000 a year.
:32:46. > :32:56.Their living standards have collapsed. End of the civil service,
:32:56. > :33:06.their jobs are going. If that is true, why did only 20% bother to
:33:06. > :33:11.
:33:11. > :33:21.vote about a strike this summer? a result of the threat to strike,
:33:21. > :33:22.
:33:22. > :33:28.1100 extra permanent jobs were won in the Home Office. If things are
:33:28. > :33:31.so bad, why do your members not even bother to vote? One of the
:33:31. > :33:35.reasons why I think there is a problem with turnout is that if you
:33:35. > :33:40.look at the political parties, nobody is offering any alternative
:33:41. > :33:45.or any hope. Many people are affected by the gloom and despair.
:33:45. > :33:51.I am convinced that when people realise that 80% of the cuts are
:33:51. > :33:55.still to come, not only will the support industrial action, I
:33:55. > :34:00.believe it will be popular with members of the public. The last
:34:00. > :34:05.time we had a massive strike, most people supported the strike even
:34:05. > :34:15.though we had been demonised in the media. It is unfair to say that
:34:15. > :34:16.
:34:16. > :34:20.most people are not offering a hope. Ed Miliband will be making a speech
:34:20. > :34:30.this week about responsible capitalism and despair sing wealth
:34:30. > :34:37.
:34:37. > :34:44.better. -- disbursing. The biggest union has called for a purge on
:34:44. > :34:51.Blairites. How long will the unions pay for the Labour Party and of get
:34:51. > :34:54.what they want? They will carry on paying for the Labour Party. The
:34:54. > :35:00.task for the Labour Party is to supplement that muddy with extra
:35:00. > :35:07.Buddy. As Labour becomes a more likely to form part of a government,
:35:07. > :35:14.you will find more money coming to the Labour Party. Ed Miliband has
:35:14. > :35:23.to resist Mr McCluskey. His chances of being Prime Minister are reduced
:35:23. > :35:29.if he does not. What is the point of supporting the Labour Party if
:35:30. > :35:34.unions do not go much in return? century ago, the Labour Party was
:35:34. > :35:41.founded by the unions to speak up for working people. There are still
:35:41. > :35:45.some in the Labour Party -- in the union movement who believe that
:35:45. > :35:50.link is worth maintaining. Ed Miliband has to understand he does
:35:50. > :35:57.not enthuse or inspire anyone when his slogan is that he will cut
:35:57. > :36:03.slightly less, slightly less fast. People want to be inspired. We need
:36:03. > :36:08.to say that the markets are dictating social policy in Britain
:36:08. > :36:15.will be challenged. I understand that, it is not what I asked, but
:36:15. > :36:25.never mind. Is there any chance of a general strike? It is part of the
:36:25. > :36:35.fantasy left. There will not be a general strike. I do not get
:36:35. > :36:39.
:36:39. > :36:44.fixated on the labels. And it will be for more than a day if we do not
:36:44. > :36:54.see a change of direction. You are watching this Sunday
:36:54. > :37:00.
:37:00. > :37:04.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:37:04. > :37:07.programme. The new Head of the Police Service admits more civilian
:37:07. > :37:11.job losses are on the way. Over 8% of back office jobs have already
:37:11. > :37:15.been cut. So is there a tipping point where bobbies on the beat end
:37:15. > :37:22.up becoming bobbies on the seat? We'll be live in Manchester at the
:37:22. > :37:24.Labour Party Conference with Douglas Alexander.
:37:24. > :37:27.A former kirk minister and now Princeton professor tells Wigtown
:37:27. > :37:31.Book festival that Scottish public life is in crisis. The civic
:37:31. > :37:33.solution - a space in the debate where everyone can be a bit braver
:37:33. > :37:36.and a bit more more respectful of each other.
:37:36. > :37:42.And as the women for independence campaign launches, we ask if female
:37:42. > :37:45.voters really need special attention?
:37:45. > :37:50.Stephen House, the clear favourite, has become the Chief Constable of
:37:50. > :37:53.the new Police Service of Scotland. He will take up his duties soon in
:37:53. > :37:56.advance of the amalgamation of the existing eight forces on April the
:37:56. > :37:59.1st. But already he has sparked controversy with his admission that
:37:59. > :38:02.more than 3,000 civilian staff may have to lose their jobs. The
:38:02. > :38:07.Government is of course pledged to maintain the number of police
:38:07. > :38:09.officers. It has alarmed unions and they are seeking a meeting with the
:38:09. > :38:16.new Chief Constable later this week. Our Home Affairs Correspondent,
:38:16. > :38:21.Reevel Alderson reports. Athan blue line, not if the
:38:21. > :38:25.government has its way. It is pledged to maintain police officer
:38:25. > :38:35.levels at 1000 more than when it took office. So far, it has managed
:38:35. > :38:42.
:38:42. > :38:47.But their new chief constable, Stephen House, knows that he must
:38:47. > :38:57.cut spending and he has admitted that up to 3200 civilian staff may
:38:57. > :39:05.
:39:05. > :39:12.go. It has been a process of that Can more cuts be made without
:39:12. > :39:17.hitting police operations? It makes logical sense that staff can be cut.
:39:17. > :39:22.Each force has an HR department, payable staff and admin. These will
:39:22. > :39:26.all be merged. But there are other civilians whose jobs directly
:39:26. > :39:31.support uniformed officers. will not be able to maintain order
:39:31. > :39:39.officers on the street if there is an absence of support in the offers.
:39:39. > :39:43.People lead to find out about warrants. They IFS no one doing
:39:43. > :39:52.that administrative work. The same goes for intelligence work. --
:39:52. > :40:00.there is no one doing. The Liberal Democrats have consistently opposed
:40:00. > :40:07.the single for Los and see it will be a retrograde step if police
:40:07. > :40:11.officers have to do these jobs again. You have to make sure you
:40:11. > :40:15.have the right people in the right places. Police officer should not
:40:15. > :40:23.be in the back Office to do jobs that prevent them from getting out
:40:23. > :40:27.on the front line. Government supporters see rationalisation is
:40:27. > :40:32.inevitable. They argue the process could be wider than just the police
:40:32. > :40:36.service. They are opportunities collected with collaborative work
:40:36. > :40:44.in other authorities. The fire service for instance and ambulance
:40:44. > :40:47.service. We do not need all the posts that presently exist.
:40:47. > :40:57.government has also said there will be there all outsourcing of
:40:57. > :41:01.
:41:01. > :41:08.functions to a private companies to reduce the Staff head count. But
:41:08. > :41:10.how can services be maintained with these reductions? In our Inverness
:41:10. > :41:13.studio this morning is Chief Superintendent David O'Connor.
:41:13. > :41:15.He is the President of the Association of Scottish Police
:41:15. > :41:16.Superintendents, that's the national body which represents
:41:16. > :41:23.operational commanders across Scotland.
:41:23. > :41:28.Thank you for joining us. That Sunday Herald is reporting that the
:41:28. > :41:35.single force will involve cuts of 300 million over the next three
:41:35. > :41:39.years, 550 staff will go immediately and �26 million will
:41:39. > :41:46.come out of terms and conditions for police officers. But these
:41:46. > :41:53.figures that you recognise? These figures have not been discussed at
:41:53. > :41:56.the Police Reform Group. The article today makes a reference to
:41:56. > :42:02.the Police Reform Group. I am a member of that particular group and
:42:02. > :42:12.I have not had an opportunity to scrutinise these figures.
:42:12. > :42:15.
:42:15. > :42:20.understand they have come principally from across. -- Actos.
:42:20. > :42:28.How concerned would you be? We have backed a single police service
:42:28. > :42:32.across Scotland. We also have opposition that we believe in the
:42:32. > :42:37.balance of a workforce. That is about police officers delivering
:42:37. > :42:44.local and national policing, supported by support staff in a
:42:44. > :42:48.whole range of functions. We would like to have an early meeting with
:42:49. > :42:53.Stephen House and the convenor of the new police authority to discuss
:42:53. > :42:57.this particular balance. It is unfortunate if you have already
:42:57. > :43:03.said that this is a good idea in principle, and as it turns out, do
:43:03. > :43:08.you have any reservations at all? We always supported the concept of
:43:08. > :43:13.a single police service for Scotland. It was about maintaining
:43:13. > :43:19.police officer numbers as a part of a balanced workforce. It was about
:43:19. > :43:24.removing duplication. One of the factors there was involved was the
:43:24. > :43:28.downturn in the economy and the need to make efficiency savings.
:43:28. > :43:33.But what will it mean for policing in that Scotland? Their new policy
:43:33. > :43:41.model will have to have a balance between police officers and police
:43:41. > :43:51.staff. That will involve the types of officers in forensics and
:43:51. > :44:01.custody suites, in detention centres. This is people's jobs we
:44:01. > :44:01.
:44:01. > :44:08.are talking about. The report says that redundant posts will be filled
:44:08. > :44:12.by police officers. Policing is a complex business. It is a mix of
:44:13. > :44:16.skills, experience and power. We want the right person with the
:44:16. > :44:21.right scale doing the right job at the right time. I have to labour
:44:21. > :44:25.this point. Policing is about a balance to work force. There is a
:44:25. > :44:30.great deal of rhetoric about front line policing. We need to move
:44:30. > :44:34.forward and agree and develop a model for policing for Scotland.
:44:34. > :44:39.That comprises police officers and police staff would to provide a
:44:39. > :44:48.very important job. In principle, if police officers are taken of
:44:48. > :44:53.frontline duties, is that appropriate for their role at what
:44:53. > :45:01.we all expect them to do? Is it appropriate that they are not on
:45:01. > :45:05.the beat it and doing something behind the desk? We as commanders
:45:05. > :45:12.wanted to see police officers who are highly trained and highly
:45:12. > :45:16.experienced out doing the job in their local communities. You have
:45:16. > :45:24.spoken about the demarcation lines between his some forms of police
:45:24. > :45:34.work. Does there need to be greater clarity about who is in the fraud
:45:34. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:44.team, the drugs team, the forensic team? Should they be lend him with
:45:44. > :45:51.
:45:51. > :45:55.the civilian staff when it comes to these cuts? -- linked in. I think
:45:55. > :45:59.there needs to be a very clear debate and a clear understanding of
:45:59. > :46:03.what these terms actually mean. Sometimes these terms can be
:46:03. > :46:09.unhelpful. What is the point of having a debate now of the deal is
:46:09. > :46:13.already done? It is back to the point that I was making earlier. We
:46:13. > :46:18.accept that savings have to be made, but we still need to have the
:46:18. > :46:22.opportunity as a staff association and the unions still the to have a
:46:22. > :46:26.meeting in relation to the figures that are being provided to allow
:46:26. > :46:32.them to represent the interests of their members and, more importantly,
:46:32. > :46:37.to develop a new policing order for Scotland. Does at the new structure
:46:37. > :46:41.allow you to do that as efficiently as you could have done before? For
:46:41. > :46:47.example, the former Highlander chief constable is saying that the
:46:47. > :46:53.new authority, the support staff, the budgets, none of that will be
:46:53. > :47:00.decided locally, it will all be decided centrally. One of the
:47:00. > :47:04.things that we have got a challenge with is the constraints of time.
:47:04. > :47:11.Then you police service for Scotland will be up and running in
:47:11. > :47:21.April. -- the their new police service. Thank you very much for
:47:21. > :47:21.
:47:21. > :47:25.Johann Lamont set the cat among the pigeons this week with a surprise
:47:25. > :47:30.and radical policy shift. She said that the idea that Scotland could
:47:30. > :47:34.remain in a nation where everything was free is a lie propagated by the
:47:34. > :47:42.SNP. A commission is looking into the affordability of universal
:47:42. > :47:46.benefits such as free care for the elderly, tuition fees, bus passes
:47:46. > :47:49.and others. We went to meet some of the people who benefit from these
:47:49. > :47:56.policies. People at this coffee morning are
:47:56. > :47:59.dipping into their pockets for charity. This is a leafy suburb to
:47:59. > :48:04.the South of Glasgow. They are digesting the news that Johann
:48:04. > :48:08.Lamont wants to overhaul universal benefits, but they seem attached to
:48:08. > :48:16.get free bus passes and prescription. I worked on my life
:48:16. > :48:21.and I do not get any other benefits. I worked until I was 70. I have
:48:21. > :48:26.paid in, so why not? I have paid for it! We should all have to pay
:48:27. > :48:31.something. We are having a problem financially, so we should pay
:48:31. > :48:35.something. When it comes to benefits, most people here feel
:48:35. > :48:40.they are entitled to their slice of the cake, but Labour are sounding
:48:40. > :48:46.the alarm, saying the plate is empty. The idea that Scotland is a
:48:46. > :48:51.land where everything is free is alive. Somebody always pays for it
:48:51. > :48:56.in the end. A council tax freeze costs. It is cheap to say, but
:48:56. > :49:02.expensive to fund. An expert has been charged with examining the
:49:02. > :49:06.affordability of universal benefits. One party estimate is that they
:49:06. > :49:11.cost �1 billion every year. Labour say the current financial situation
:49:11. > :49:16.means that 30,000 public-sector jobs have been lost in their class
:49:16. > :49:20.to 18 months. These are people who are leaving their posts. That takes
:49:20. > :49:24.spending power out of the economy. We cannot have a recovery while
:49:24. > :49:28.that is happening and while other services are being protected.
:49:28. > :49:32.Nothing is off the table in this review, but it led to allegations
:49:32. > :49:41.that Labour were betraying their socialist principles. It is
:49:42. > :49:46.actually quite tragic to. Johann Lamont, a poster girl for be Tories,
:49:46. > :49:56.whatever happened to Labour? We used to have new Labour, and now we
:49:56. > :49:59.have Johann Lamont, New Blair. have to live with the reality of
:49:59. > :50:02.the public finance situation. They are difficult decisions to be made
:50:02. > :50:09.and we have to find a way of delivering social justice in these
:50:09. > :50:12.times. Despite what most people at the coffee morning said, the social
:50:12. > :50:18.service -- attitude suggests a fifty-fifty split over whether or
:50:18. > :50:23.not people should play -- pay for prescriptions and personal care.
:50:23. > :50:33.Their stance could be a gamble. SNP went through the same thing.
:50:33. > :50:34.
:50:34. > :50:38.They do think in their heart of Hearts that a lot of Scottish
:50:38. > :50:42.people would see the need and the reason behind small cuts. When it
:50:43. > :50:47.came to it, they said thanks, but no thanks. The party may think that
:50:47. > :50:50.honesty is the best policy, but when it comes to goodies, voters
:50:50. > :50:54.may find it hard to resist temptation.
:50:54. > :50:57.Listing to that at the Labour Party conference is the Shadow Foreign
:50:57. > :51:03.Secretary and MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Douglas
:51:03. > :51:08.Alexander. Thank you for talking to us. If we look at this issue of
:51:08. > :51:12.universal benefits festival, whatever the merits of the argument,
:51:12. > :51:17.it is a risky political discretion to have, so it is imperative that
:51:17. > :51:23.these are kids are presented coherently and credibly from the
:51:23. > :51:26.beginning. Has this happened? think what Johann Lamont did this
:51:26. > :51:31.week was to start a serious conversation about a serious issue,
:51:31. > :51:37.which is, how do you deliver social justice in tough times against a
:51:37. > :51:43.backdrop of real fiscal head wins - - winds when many will be in short
:51:43. > :51:47.supply after 2015? That has provoked a strong reaction from the
:51:47. > :51:52.SNP, but that is because the SNP feel they have been winning in
:51:52. > :51:55.Scotland. The dynamic has been between Scotland and the rest of
:51:55. > :51:59.the United Kingdom. Johann Lamont was opening up a different
:51:59. > :52:05.conversation, saying there is still an important left right
:52:05. > :52:10.conversation in the country. That will cause difficulty for the SNP,
:52:10. > :52:15.but it is a timely conversation and a necessary one, because my own
:52:15. > :52:22.patch in Paisley, we are seeing annual cuts of almost 10%. Why
:52:22. > :52:31.should young children in Paisley be suffering as a direct taught --
:52:31. > :52:35.consequence of the SNP's decisions? You say it is a timely and
:52:35. > :52:38.necessary conversation, but the question I ask you was, in a week
:52:38. > :52:42.in which we have seen the Scottish Conservatives are meeting to say
:52:42. > :52:52.they are glad to see Johann Lamont come on board with their ideas, has
:52:52. > :52:54.
:52:54. > :52:58.a complex argument been put forward clearly enough at this stage tee?
:52:58. > :53:04.Should you be associated with the Conservatives? Let me make the
:53:05. > :53:14.point that you quoted the Conservatives and I could quite an
:53:15. > :53:15.
:53:15. > :53:19.eerie and Bevan. Johann Lamont was opening up a conversation about
:53:19. > :53:24.what Scotland's priorities were for building be good society. I do not
:53:24. > :53:28.know why these aside -- Gethin be is scared of the debate. Is there a
:53:28. > :53:31.time to draw a line and say that you can be clear about the
:53:31. > :53:38.timescale and tell people what the priorities are before the
:53:38. > :53:42.referendum vote? We are very early into the new Scottish Parliament.
:53:42. > :53:47.It is said to recognise that Labour suffered a bad defeat last year. I
:53:47. > :53:51.think now is the time to set out her stall and are thinking. We have
:53:51. > :53:55.been midwinter Commission which will look at all these issues of
:53:55. > :53:58.affordability. The other point worth making is that we have always
:53:58. > :54:02.believed in a welfare state that balances universalism with targeted
:54:02. > :54:11.support. That is why we have the state pension, but also the pension
:54:11. > :54:15.credit. We have child benefit, but also child tax credit. And not
:54:15. > :54:18.clear as to the are to be that says there needs to be a line of clarity,
:54:18. > :54:22.because in Scotland we have had years of universal and targeted
:54:22. > :54:26.support. The balance between those two is a legitimate debate to be
:54:26. > :54:30.had in the years ahead. If you are saying that at the time of the
:54:30. > :54:33.referendum, Labour going saying we have to have a debate about it,
:54:33. > :54:40.your opponents can attach anything they want to it as they have done
:54:40. > :54:43.this week. I am not complacent about the referendum, but I
:54:43. > :54:49.understand the desperation in the nationalist camps. It has been
:54:49. > :54:53.fortified years that the SNP have been polling about 30% in support
:54:53. > :54:57.of independence. That remains the case despite their historic victory
:54:57. > :55:03.last year. I understand the appetite amongst journalists and
:55:03. > :55:08.politicians to try to attribute every move in a Holyrood on its
:55:08. > :55:15.impact on referendum figures. The numbers have not shifted one iota
:55:15. > :55:19.since Alex Salmond was elected in 2007. I think our job is to make
:55:19. > :55:22.the case that Scotland would be best it within the United Kingdom,
:55:22. > :55:26.but also to get on with the task with recognising the fact that
:55:26. > :55:29.Scottish Labour is thinking hard about what are tough questions.
:55:29. > :55:33.Bill Clinton sped to the Democrats a couple of weeks ago and said that
:55:33. > :55:38.his issues in terms of the budget was not tied into ideology but
:55:38. > :55:43.arithmetic. What Johann Lamont was saying in Edinburgh this week was
:55:43. > :55:47.not just related to ideology but also to the basic arithmetic. The
:55:47. > :55:52.SNP will be cut in services, but they do not want to have a
:55:52. > :55:57.conversation about which services those will be. All the universal
:55:57. > :56:03.benefits that I enjoyed in Scotland at the minute are up for grabs.
:56:03. > :56:07.Means testing is inevitable now in this debate, isn't it? In the
:56:07. > :56:10.welfare state that we have had for many years, there has been a
:56:10. > :56:17.conversation -- combination of universal and targeted support.
:56:17. > :56:27.That will be the case still. There will be universal benefits, but
:56:27. > :56:36.
:56:36. > :56:41.also targeted support. The logic of that argument is that the the
:56:41. > :56:51.wealthiest people should pay for their NHS treatment tee No. As I
:56:51. > :56:56.have said, we recognise the principle of access to the NHS. Let
:56:56. > :57:00.me make my point. When we came to power in 1997, we face a judgement
:57:00. > :57:05.as to whether to put the additional revenues we were generating into
:57:05. > :57:08.the basic state pension or target that money towards the poorest
:57:08. > :57:11.pensioners through the pension credit. I am not ashamed of the
:57:11. > :57:15.decision to target the poorest pensioners first with extra help.
:57:15. > :57:18.That was the right decision for social justice, and that is the
:57:18. > :57:22.kind of conversation that Johann Lamont was beginning this week.
:57:22. > :57:25.That is the point that I'm trying to make to you. The electorate have
:57:25. > :57:29.a right to know what these principles are and what these
:57:29. > :57:33.distinctions are that you will draw and what you're spending priorities
:57:33. > :57:39.will be before they go to be referendum vote. He seemed very
:57:39. > :57:44.relaxed about the timing of this. Arthur midwinter has his work to
:57:44. > :57:51.take forward as is always the case. The Scottish Labour Party was set
:57:51. > :57:55.at our thinking at the time of be manifestos before the election.
:57:55. > :57:58.There will be further opportunities for Johann Lamont to set at her
:57:58. > :58:02.thinking. I welcome the idea that there is a serious conversation to
:58:02. > :58:07.be had about a serious issue that is already affecting my
:58:07. > :58:12.constituents. Renfrewshire has already suffered a cut in its
:58:12. > :58:22.funding while other better off areas have had increases in its
:58:22. > :58:23.
:58:23. > :58:27.funding. -- in their funding. This issue is happening now. This debate
:58:27. > :58:32.demands to be had now. I welcome the fact that Johann Lamont started
:58:32. > :58:35.this week. I take the rather hysterical reaction of some
:58:35. > :58:43.nationalists as evidence that despite the posts and the bluster,
:58:43. > :58:53.they do not have good chances in this debate. Today in the
:58:53. > :58:55.
:58:55. > :58:59.newspapers, it says that Labour seeks more powers for Holyrood.
:58:59. > :59:03.Labour has established at a commission on further devolution.
:59:03. > :59:08.You have been calling for a further devolved vision for Scotland. Have
:59:08. > :59:13.they been too slow to get out of the blocks on this one? I welcomed
:59:13. > :59:17.the devolution commission that Jeilan has announced. -- that
:59:17. > :59:21.Johann Lamont has announced. We have been talking about the tough
:59:21. > :59:24.choices that are faced in delivering social justice. It is
:59:24. > :59:28.right to look at the issue as to what is the best constitutional
:59:28. > :59:32.settlement for Scotland. We do not accept that a separate state is the
:59:33. > :59:37.best way forward, but I think that in a pragmatic or calm and
:59:37. > :59:39.reasonable fashion, we should look at the devolution settlement and
:59:40. > :59:43.whether that offers the best balance of powers which can give
:59:43. > :59:48.Scotland the opportunity to grow and succeed in the future. Douglas
:59:48. > :59:51.Alexander, we have to leave it there. Thank you for joining us.
:59:51. > :59:56.Coming up later on the programme, we will be hearing from William
:59:56. > :00:00.Storrar, the theological professor from Princeton University. We'll
:00:00. > :00:05.also be finding out what we need for independence are up to. That is
:00:05. > :00:15.all after the lunch time news at 12pm with Tim Willcox and Andrew
:00:15. > :00:19.Good afternoon. The Labour leader Ed Miliband has said he will stand
:00:19. > :00:23.up to powerful interest groups on behalf of the hard-working majority.
:00:23. > :00:26.Speaking ahead of the start of the Labour Party conferences after
:00:26. > :00:30.being, Ed Miliband said he would take on the banks and his own trade
:00:30. > :00:38.union supporters as he seeks to rebuild the British economy. Arts
:00:38. > :00:42.correspondent reports. The slogan is, rebuilding Britain.
:00:42. > :00:45.That Labour also has to rebuild the trust it loss at the last election.
:00:45. > :00:50.They need to convince voters that Ed Miliband is a potential Prime
:00:50. > :00:53.Minister. He was recognised by this writer this morning, but although
:00:53. > :00:58.his party is ahead in the polls, his own ratings remain poor. He
:00:58. > :01:03.says that Labour has to change, but he will remain trees to himself.
:01:03. > :01:07.I'm going to do it my own way. I think in the end people respect
:01:07. > :01:11.somebody who has seriousness of purpose. It is not just Labour's
:01:11. > :01:16.conference which is getting a makeover. The task is to find
:01:16. > :01:21.policies which are distinctive for be -- from the coalition --
:01:21. > :01:25.distinct from the coalition but do not cause a crash. Ed Miliband is
:01:25. > :01:33.prepared to break up the banks to protect High Street customers from
:01:33. > :01:39.investment operations. That is a massive difference in priorities
:01:39. > :01:42.between a Prime Minister that I aspire to beer, -- aspire to be, to
:01:42. > :01:51.help people who cannot get by on their own, and a government which
:01:51. > :01:54.just wants to cut taxes for the rich. The unions make a big
:01:54. > :01:58.financial contribution to the Labour Party, and they want to use
:01:58. > :02:03.their muscle to influence party policy. Ed Miliband says he will
:02:03. > :02:13.not give into his party pay masters on the subject of pay. We are
:02:13. > :02:16.
:02:16. > :02:20.tackling the subject of pay rises, bit it is the way to keep jobs.
:02:20. > :02:24.The number of American service personnel who have lost their lives
:02:24. > :02:32.in Afghanistan since the beginning of the conflict in 2001 has reached
:02:32. > :02:35.2000. A US soldier was shot dead yesterday in a so-called green-on-
:02:35. > :02:41.blue attack by a member of the Afghan security forces.
:02:41. > :02:44.A fire in the Syrian city of Aleppo has destroyed many of the medieval
:02:44. > :02:50.markets there as a fighting rages between government troops and
:02:50. > :02:54.rebels. Fires tour through many areas of the old city, a UNESCO
:02:54. > :03:00.heritage site. It is the final day of playing the
:03:00. > :03:08.Ryder Cup which gets under way in Chicago in America. America's of us
:03:08. > :03:18.are just 4.5 points short of victory over the Europeans.
:03:18. > :03:22.That is all the news without. There will be more on BBC One at 6:35pm.
:03:22. > :03:27.Good afternoon. Hundreds of people were delayed at Glasgow Airport
:03:27. > :03:30.overnight because of a UK Border Force computer failure. Passengers
:03:30. > :03:35.on three planes travelling from Greece and Egypt were forced to
:03:35. > :03:39.wait for several hours. The system eventually returns to normal, with
:03:39. > :03:41.queues taking about three hours to clear.
:03:42. > :03:49.The school della blogger Martha Payne has arrived with her family
:03:49. > :03:55.in Malawi to see how the thousands of pounds she raised on a website
:03:55. > :03:58.is being spent. She commented on her in-flight meal on a read.
:03:58. > :04:02.Donations to their website soared after a controversial ban was
:04:02. > :04:06.imposed on the block by Argyll and Bute Council. 2000 children are
:04:06. > :04:12.being fed every day in one kitchen which has been set up.
:04:12. > :04:22.Golf, and in the final days of the Ryder Cup, the European team are up
:04:22. > :04:22.
:04:22. > :04:28.against it. The Scottish player has played in two matches and has lost
:04:28. > :04:37.both so far. USA lead lot -- Europe by 10 points to six. Here is the
:04:37. > :04:40.The weather will get better as we go through his afternoon. There
:04:40. > :04:44.will be some showers in the North and West. The rain will eventually
:04:44. > :04:50.cleared, turning bright for most, with some lovely spells of sunshine.
:04:50. > :04:56.It is a windy afternoon, particularly in the North West.
:04:56. > :05:00.Temperatures are mild, at about 15 Celsius. A fine ends today in the
:05:00. > :05:10.East and in the South, but there will still be showers in the North
:05:10. > :05:11.
:05:11. > :05:13.West. Can we hope for a more public
:05:13. > :05:16.spirited Scotland to emerge from the independence debate? That was
:05:16. > :05:18.the big question to the Wigtown Book Festival from Professor
:05:18. > :05:21.William Storrar, seasoned campaigner in bringing politics to
:05:21. > :05:28.the people. William Storrar, academic and
:05:28. > :05:30.Church of Scotland minister, has flown in from America where he is
:05:30. > :05:38.the directors of the Princeton Center of Theological Enquiry. His
:05:38. > :05:44.message to the audience is that the All player-power to challenge
:05:44. > :05:49.corrupt capitalism s public spirit. He cites their attitude of three
:05:49. > :05:56.men in particular. Magnus Magnusson, because he had the same courteous
:05:56. > :06:05.respect for everyone. The trade unionist Campbell Christian who
:06:05. > :06:10.knew how to charm, captivate misfits. And Sir Neil McCormick who
:06:10. > :06:14.threw his intellect and generosity of character transformed the
:06:14. > :06:20.Scottish public sphere. And Professor William Storrar is here
:06:20. > :06:25.with me this afternoon. You were playing to a packed
:06:25. > :06:35.audience? It was very exciting. The lady next door it was talking about
:06:35. > :06:38.
:06:38. > :06:41.six in her book and we were talking about Scotland. -- sex. You were
:06:41. > :06:45.talking about the contribution that was made by the men we have just
:06:45. > :06:50.seen. What is happening now that was different when you were out on
:06:51. > :06:55.the campaign trail to get a parliament for Scotland? I think
:06:55. > :07:00.these are three remarkable Scots were the last of a generation of
:07:00. > :07:06.politics where you work to through the big institutions, the BBC, the
:07:06. > :07:10.STUC, that universities to lead a public debate. I think that now the
:07:10. > :07:18.public life and the public spirit has migrated into all sorts of
:07:18. > :07:24.initiatives. People who care about the environment, women's networks,
:07:24. > :07:27.and I think we have got to be Advent a new kind of public
:07:27. > :07:37.politics for ordinary citizens three those kind of met works a
:07:37. > :07:43.rather than the big names. -- networks. How does that filter
:07:43. > :07:49.through into traditional political avenues? We think how we can make
:07:49. > :07:52.an impact on the politicians. Another great Scot, Steven Maxwell,
:07:52. > :07:56.a brilliant thinker about citizenship and Scotland said that
:07:56. > :08:06.you cannot have a healthier Holyrood unless you have a health a
:08:06. > :08:11.
:08:11. > :08:17.civil society around it. The politicians, to do their job,
:08:17. > :08:21.whatever happens after the vote, we need and a healthy, active group of
:08:21. > :08:25.citizens who are having their own debate about the kind of Scotland
:08:25. > :08:29.we want to live in. It is interesting what will happen after
:08:29. > :08:33.that vote. You have said in your lecture that we need to know how to
:08:33. > :08:38.carry ourselves in public. The world is watching and waiting. Not
:08:38. > :08:45.so much to see the outcome of the board, but to see how we conduct
:08:45. > :08:49.ourselves in public. Do you have concerned that if the court -- to
:08:49. > :08:55.do you have concerns that if the tone of the debate is no right and
:08:55. > :09:03.respect for, it will poison the well? Absolutely. How we start is
:09:03. > :09:08.how we finish. If it we demonise ll the other side -- if we demonise
:09:08. > :09:13.the other side as the end of the, we have already lost the vote. The
:09:13. > :09:23.day after the vote, we will still be living in Scotland and working
:09:23. > :09:24.
:09:24. > :09:32.for the common good. How we conduct ourselves and a -- as an Asian will
:09:32. > :09:35.determine how we will live together and work together as a nation.
:09:35. > :09:41.There are initiatives around the world to set up new democracies
:09:41. > :09:46.were people have a stake and they want to see Scotland show the way,
:09:46. > :09:54.whatever the result of the referendum. Do you think it will be
:09:54. > :10:04.easier to conduct the right to beat out in the communities and rather
:10:04. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:16.than in the tribal environment a Politics? Absolutely. We went out
:10:16. > :10:20.in a minibus with a group of Scottish writers and poets and we
:10:20. > :10:27.went to Aberdeenshire, down to Lesmahagow, outside the central
:10:27. > :10:32.belt, into town halls and church halls, and hundreds of ordinary
:10:32. > :10:42.citizens took part in a wonderfully rich of debate about what kind of
:10:42. > :10:46.
:10:46. > :10:50.Scotland we were hoping for. We must do the same again. I hope that
:10:50. > :11:00.communities will well, its back for the debate. You will be back on the
:11:00. > :11:01.
:11:01. > :11:08.bus? Absolutely. I hope this time that we will have some of the
:11:08. > :11:16.fabulous of young women in Scotland, who are absolutely active citizens.
:11:16. > :11:19.And opposing viewpoints as well? absolutely. The group Women for
:11:19. > :11:21.Independence launches today. It's not officially part of the Yes
:11:21. > :11:24.Scotland Campaign but runs alongside it. We'll speak to one of
:11:24. > :11:27.the organisers in just a second. But first Hayley Jarvis has been
:11:27. > :11:34.asking in an age of equality if female voters really need special
:11:34. > :11:40.attention? Flags at the pro-independence rally
:11:40. > :11:50.in Edinburgh last weekend. Does the referendum debate need to be
:11:50. > :11:55.
:11:55. > :12:00.tailored towards the female vote? A Why are women less likely to have
:12:00. > :12:04.made up their minds? It is not to do with depth of feelings of
:12:04. > :12:10.national identity. There is no evidence of that at all. There is a
:12:10. > :12:17.marked difference between men and women been how confident they feel
:12:17. > :12:22.about independence. It is central to the debate as far as women are
:12:22. > :12:30.concerned, they are more risk- averse, more worried about the
:12:30. > :12:40.prospect of independence. How will the Budget affect women in Scotland.
:12:40. > :12:41.
:12:41. > :12:45.She feels that issues that affect remember voters have been sidelined.
:12:45. > :12:55.We need to talk less about whether we are going to be in the tour and
:12:55. > :12:57.
:12:57. > :13:00.talk about what we are going to do about the pick up. -- in NATO.
:13:00. > :13:05.is long gone that women were overlooked because they were women
:13:05. > :13:09.and did not know about these things. For most women, they would rather
:13:09. > :13:14.be where the politics are at. That is where the decisions are a bit.
:13:14. > :13:23.What women have a greater voice with engaging with their two main
:13:23. > :13:26.campaign groups? The launch is in full flow at the
:13:26. > :13:33.moment but the former SSP MSP, Carolyn Leckie has nipped outside
:13:33. > :13:42.to join us. Do women identify it simply as
:13:42. > :13:47.women? Not simply as women. I think people's identities are diverse and
:13:47. > :13:52.complex. That is why be formed because women are not uniform. But
:13:52. > :13:59.we do not bring that women's voices had been heard up to now. We want
:13:59. > :14:06.to listen to what their views are, their ideals and aspirations before
:14:06. > :14:09.we do anything. We think that the independence debate so far has been
:14:09. > :14:17.very male dominated at as take him on the tone of a boxing match
:14:17. > :14:23.already. We hope to seat a burgeoning of democracy a month's
:14:23. > :14:28.remember. Women have a long history of self organising. They want to
:14:28. > :14:38.make sure that our voices are heard. We are not waiting for permission
:14:38. > :14:39.
:14:39. > :14:42.to be heard or asking to be invited to be heard. You might be going on
:14:42. > :14:48.this bus with William Storrar? Possibly. We do not know where this
:14:48. > :14:52.will take us. The women who have come together a very diverse. We
:14:52. > :15:01.support independence. But what kind of Scotland B one-11, we want to
:15:01. > :15:10.create a spade for women to him -- what kind of Scotland we wanted to
:15:10. > :15:17.live in, we want to create a space of four women to discuss that.
:15:17. > :15:21.are almost out of time. You are a campaigning group. Would there have
:15:21. > :15:27.been met in creating a women only forum where the debate could be
:15:27. > :15:33.created in a manner that you would consider more constructive and for
:15:33. > :15:37.all parties? And we would participate in anything with any
:15:37. > :15:43.groups in discussion. We want to approach it with a different tone
:15:43. > :15:53.and more respectful and listen to people. Including remember,
:15:53. > :15:55.
:15:55. > :16:01.particularly who do not support independence. -- including women. I
:16:01. > :16:06.think they will learn a lot through that process.
:16:06. > :16:09.Thank you for that. Now in a moment, we'll be
:16:09. > :16:19.discussing the big events coming up this week, but first, let's take a
:16:19. > :16:23.
:16:23. > :16:31.look back at the Week in Sixty Remarkable scenes followed severe
:16:31. > :16:39.rainstorms. A budget moment for the pro-union better together campaign
:16:39. > :16:49.when a JK Rowling kid down in favour of the Union. We are in a
:16:49. > :16:52.
:16:52. > :16:58.stable, sound position. I didn't want to stabilise that.
:16:58. > :17:08.MSP express their horror at the level of inequality of care
:17:08. > :17:08.
:17:08. > :17:18.experienced by its travellers. Europe was checking the small print
:17:18. > :17:32.
:17:32. > :17:35.And now it's time to take a look at the week ahead.
:17:35. > :17:41.And joining me this week are the Spectator blogger Alex Massie and
:17:41. > :17:48.the journalist Anna Burnside. What will be happening at the
:17:48. > :17:52.Labour Party conference? It looks like what ever the relationship
:17:52. > :18:01.with the unions, if they get into the unions, then they are in the
:18:01. > :18:09.unions' pocket. It is hard to see who is going to come well out of
:18:09. > :18:19.this. McCluskey wants all the playwrights out will stop --
:18:19. > :18:19.
:18:19. > :18:26.playwrights -- Billy Wrights out. It is hard to see how are Ed
:18:26. > :18:31.Miliband well, out of this. I agree entirely. It cannot end well. Which
:18:31. > :18:37.is quite entertaining for everyone else. Whoever pays the piper calls
:18:37. > :18:45.of the two. For as long as the Labour Party is 60% funded by the
:18:45. > :18:49.unions, it is not unreasonable for the unions to wish to have an
:18:49. > :18:54.influence on Labour Party policy. That causes a certain amount of
:18:55. > :19:02.difficulty for Ed Miliband given that union membership is lower now
:19:02. > :19:06.than it ever has been. The Labour Party is trying to run away from
:19:06. > :19:16.Tony Blair as it possibly can add playwright has become a term of
:19:16. > :19:22.
:19:22. > :19:28.abuse, -- Blairite. Ed Balls has been saying that an
:19:28. > :19:38.incoming Labour government would be ruthless on budgets, but they are
:19:38. > :19:50.
:19:50. > :19:53.trying to Saughton a line -- soften. They are trying to manoeuvre
:19:53. > :20:03.Liberal Democrats out of the coalition. Going along with the
:20:03. > :20:03.
:20:03. > :20:09.mansion tax is an obvious attempt to put a wedge in there. I thought
:20:09. > :20:14.that was quite interesting. If we look back at what has happened in
:20:14. > :20:20.Scotland over the past week. Johann Lamont's statements about universal
:20:20. > :20:24.benefit. How do you think it was presented? I thought it was an
:20:24. > :20:30.interesting repudiation of the last 50 Years of the Scottish Labour
:20:30. > :20:33.party's approach to politics which has been essentially to be in an
:20:33. > :20:40.auction with their SNP to dole out as many sweeties to the electorate
:20:40. > :20:44.as possible. In a normal, go on a political culture, the notion that
:20:44. > :20:54.you might have to raise taxes is not so controversial. But in
:20:54. > :21:00.Scotland, this is a great betrayal. It is a depressing commentary on
:21:00. > :21:03.public life in this country. Aggregate was a mistake to get
:21:03. > :21:09.trapped in the relatively trivial things of free prescriptions, a
:21:09. > :21:13.free bus passes. Those are not actually major items of expenditure.
:21:13. > :21:18.What was much more interesting was their attack on the council tax
:21:18. > :21:24.freeze which is a benefit for wealthy Scots at the expense, to
:21:24. > :21:28.some extent, of poorer Scots. Particularly those who are more
:21:28. > :21:35.dependent on council services. The wealthy 10 not to rely on council
:21:35. > :21:45.services as much as the poor. -- tend not to rely. A council tax
:21:45. > :21:55.free, there were a useful it is, does have an impact. For a Labour
:21:55. > :21:57.
:21:57. > :22:06.politician to say we need to redistribute wealth, do you think
:22:06. > :22:09.that comes across yet? How are people hearing this? That is the
:22:09. > :22:14.most obvious thing for everyone to sit. It is terrible that these rich
:22:14. > :22:19.people are getting these benefits, but obviously, I deserve education
:22:19. > :22:29.for my children and somebody to look after my mother. People have
:22:29. > :22:30.
:22:30. > :22:35.called her brave and bold, with inverted commas hovering in the air.
:22:35. > :22:43.In a grown-up world, the possibly would not have to have that debate.
:22:43. > :22:47.But politics is not like that. It is hard to see how people can sort
:22:47. > :22:54.out from all the fuss there has been over this announcement that
:22:54. > :23:04.actually come of the subtle things she was the end, with all the mud
:23:04. > :23:05.
:23:05. > :23:11.slinging... It is an open goal. You cannot blame everybody for having a