:00:46. > :00:51.Watch out Birmingham, Conservatives are coming. To all scruple asked
:00:51. > :01:01.what people really think up the party and the Prime Minister. --
:01:01. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:09.our poll will last. I still think he is a bit aloof. What about the
:01:10. > :01:15.party faithful? We will ask the Defence Secretary about a state of
:01:15. > :01:25.the party. And Ed Miliband made his party happy, but what about the
:01:25. > :01:28.voters? We last-day shadow Foreign Secretary. And here in Scotland,
:01:28. > :01:30.could the train wreck that is the west coast rail franchise derail
:01:30. > :01:40.future Scotrail bids? We'll go live to the Conservative conference and
:01:40. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :33:33.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1912 seconds
:33:33. > :33:38.We opened up a franchise system so that there would be more
:33:38. > :33:43.flexibility, its flexibility that we believe passengers wanted. The
:33:43. > :33:53.problems are not in the design or specification, there in the
:33:53. > :33:54.
:33:54. > :34:04.Is it not time that ministers took some... Up the franchise system is
:34:04. > :34:04.
:34:04. > :34:08.not discredited then why are they are two investigations into?
:34:08. > :34:16.understanding is that the investigations and into the process
:34:16. > :34:21.that was used, the methodology, used to evaluate. I have not heard
:34:21. > :34:25.anything to suggest that the change in the franchise specifications,
:34:25. > :34:33.the way in which the franchises are designed, has been challenged by
:34:33. > :34:41.these reviews. The former Director General of train-operating
:34:41. > :34:49.companies calls it a shame four- line. -- shameful. Should ministers
:34:49. > :34:52.take responsibility for a shambles? To ministers obviously take over
:34:52. > :34:56.all responsibility for what happens in their apartment but we have
:34:56. > :35:02.moved on from the days when ministers were expected to manage
:35:02. > :35:08.every detail of the work in their apartment. They have to hold their
:35:08. > :35:18.civil servants to account. Ask questions. Of course they do. But
:35:18. > :35:23.
:35:23. > :35:32.they cant be involved in the -- in every last aspect. Thank you, Mr
:35:32. > :35:42.Hammond. What do you make of that? That will not have been
:35:42. > :35:42.
:35:42. > :35:47.uncomfortable viewing for Greening. He did not complete the sentence
:35:47. > :35:52.after saying he was shown the pictures anonymously. Unlike
:35:52. > :35:59.Justene Greening, who clearly did not keep as close an eye as he
:35:59. > :36:05.should have done. I am glad you gave him a real grilling. The
:36:05. > :36:09.impression of incompetence has been created by this Government. Over
:36:10. > :36:13.and again we get these types of major failures. But Conservatives
:36:13. > :36:18.can speak about whatever they like at their conference but unless they
:36:18. > :36:25.repair the impression of incompetence or policy, they will
:36:25. > :36:32.not get boats. Mr Hammond was responsible for the franchise
:36:32. > :36:37.system and it has not worked. and I agree that greening is in an
:36:37. > :36:42.even more difficult position. I have never bought into the idea
:36:42. > :36:50.that civil servants are beyond criticism but it is impossible to
:36:50. > :37:00.conceive of the situation without ministerial involvement. You are
:37:00. > :37:01.
:37:01. > :37:06.Welcome to Sunday politics Scotland. Our politicians that best people to
:37:06. > :37:14.prioritise and target universal benefits? The former Auditor
:37:14. > :37:22.General says not necessarily. And the warning from an academic of
:37:22. > :37:25.unintended consequences for rape victims. I am concerned this will
:37:25. > :37:33.lead to more acquittals. That Judy's will put the complainant and
:37:33. > :37:37.pink, she was drinking, wore revealing clothing. The Scottish
:37:37. > :37:42.Greens have voted to join the campaign for Scottish independence.
:37:42. > :37:45.And calls for the Government to change the way it awards rail
:37:45. > :37:53.franchises after the decision to scrap the West Coast Main Line
:37:53. > :37:58.Should the taxpayer money be spent and public services without charge?
:37:58. > :38:04.Or should it be targeted for those most in need? That debate has just
:38:04. > :38:08.taken place at the heart of Scottish politics and the former
:38:09. > :38:15.Auditor-General, Robert Black, has said that Holyrood's spending
:38:15. > :38:20.commitments have become unsustainable. For 12 years he was
:38:20. > :38:25.the top public spending watchdog official. He has recently retired
:38:25. > :38:29.and free to talk candidly. He is questioning whether it is
:38:29. > :38:32.sustainable to keep providing a range of public services to
:38:32. > :38:40.everybody without charge. And even if it is, is that the most
:38:40. > :38:46.effective use of public funds? affordability must be questioned.
:38:46. > :38:56.Every round on three services as a PoW and that is not there for other
:38:56. > :39:00.
:39:00. > :39:09.things. -- every pound. It sparked a heated debate. Talks about
:39:09. > :39:17.securing public services and three everything. But he has already
:39:17. > :39:23.brought into �0.7 billion worth of cuts. Robert Black says that
:39:23. > :39:33.promises were not properly costed and in the menials budgets should
:39:33. > :39:35.
:39:35. > :39:39.be cuts. For instance, travel fare concessions rising towards �0.5
:39:39. > :39:49.billion per year. The NHS Ellis double what it was a decade ago.
:39:49. > :39:55.The cost of care of elderly rises annually. Whether Scotland votes
:39:55. > :40:01.for independence or not these spending pressures will not go away.
:40:01. > :40:10.Mr Black also asked, his Holyrood costing too many -- passing too
:40:10. > :40:15.many on costed laws? And why do we have such a clutter of public
:40:15. > :40:19.bodies and over-complex partnerships? Do we really neat 32
:40:20. > :40:29.councils? He says that he speaks for other public sector leaders who
:40:30. > :40:31.
:40:31. > :40:38.I am joined by the former health minister and a representative from
:40:38. > :40:43.the Scottish Council up all up -- voluntary -- the Scottish Council
:40:43. > :40:51.voluntary organisations. Robert Black is saying that it ever party
:40:51. > :40:54.is in power, some things are just not functioning. It is amusing how
:40:54. > :41:00.much a couple of speeches have blown open a debate that should
:41:01. > :41:05.have been happening for their 13 years. And a real world a great
:41:05. > :41:11.many people asking why politicians have not been having a more
:41:11. > :41:16.measured debate about affordability, priorities. And why this assumption
:41:16. > :41:20.that if you throw lots of money, government money, at a problem, it
:41:20. > :41:24.will fix it? We have 13 years of devolution under our belt and
:41:24. > :41:34.should be asking hard questions about the limitations of the
:41:34. > :41:38.decision-making during that period. Why has that not happened?
:41:38. > :41:42.reaction of labour to the SNP speech was interpreted as Labour
:41:42. > :41:47.imposing Conservative cuts. There was no consideration of long-term
:41:47. > :41:53.implications. Susan is correct, the elephant in the financial room has
:41:53. > :41:57.been universal benefits. Middle- class benefits. The very poorest in
:41:57. > :42:02.our communities are not benefiting from universal services. Poverty
:42:02. > :42:06.and inequality has increased since the Scottish Parliament came in. So
:42:06. > :42:13.people are not part of that process. And a lot of people don't gain from
:42:13. > :42:18.universal services. I do not want to dwell on this but lots of these
:42:18. > :42:22.benefits came in under Labour. Rock lack has argued that they were not
:42:22. > :42:26.costed probably. How do you frame their conversation in a way that
:42:26. > :42:36.does not allow your opponents to say you have just trying to deprive
:42:36. > :42:37.
:42:37. > :42:40.people in need? There is a responsibility that it expands over
:42:40. > :42:46.the whole the Holyrood bubble, including commentators and the
:42:46. > :42:50.media. I hear people saying, that is just politics, it has got to be
:42:51. > :42:54.this way. We did not say that when the banks went wrong. We did not
:42:54. > :42:59.say that when there were questions about the media, we happily a
:42:59. > :43:04.person inquiry. We should shine a light on how hour politics
:43:04. > :43:09.functions. Part of the dynamics during a debate in this country is
:43:09. > :43:14.the fear that it will be perceived as an electoral liability to speak
:43:14. > :43:19.honestly and openly, or you will get some headlines screaming at you
:43:20. > :43:25.from a newspaper. But we spent a long time creating an institution
:43:25. > :43:34.in Edinburgh that was meant to be open to ideas. We have not got that
:43:34. > :43:38.and that is a very serious issue. Robert Black said that MSPs do not
:43:38. > :43:44.understand we the voluntary and private sectors operate and risk
:43:44. > :43:54.cutting funds from organisations doing a good job. Not just MSPs but
:43:54. > :43:55.
:43:55. > :43:59.councillors. I imagine you think that is fair comment. I think it is.
:43:59. > :44:04.People in communities can make decisions. It links to your
:44:04. > :44:08.question, when you involve people in designing services and making
:44:08. > :44:13.decisions about the services and priorities they want, then actually
:44:13. > :44:18.we can make the hard choices about budgets and universal services.
:44:18. > :44:23.About what we need to seek to sustain communities. The fact is,
:44:23. > :44:29.that has not happened and there as a distinct lack of understanding
:44:30. > :44:37.about the way the charity and private sectors operate. In the
:44:38. > :44:42.third sector we're still time to procure people services. -- trying.
:44:42. > :44:46.So the whole system needs a culture change. You can have the best
:44:46. > :44:51.legislation in the world but it is what happens in practice at a local
:44:51. > :45:01.level, in terms of implementing legislation, if that is key for
:45:01. > :45:03.
:45:03. > :45:09.business and the voluntary sector. We needed to have more space.
:45:09. > :45:14.Adjacent to the political process. Yet that can still influence it, a
:45:14. > :45:18.bit more like and do it less heat around issues. But we have to be
:45:18. > :45:23.careful that we do not let the political parties off the hook.
:45:23. > :45:28.There had been a lot of commissions, a lot of data has been amassed
:45:28. > :45:31.around public spending. An independent financial review was
:45:31. > :45:40.published two years ago and it is only now we're starting to talk
:45:40. > :45:44.about some of the things raised. The former Auditor General also
:45:44. > :45:47.said that spending pressures will continue regardless of how the
:45:47. > :45:55.independence referendum goes. And he said we cannot wait for the
:45:55. > :45:59.debate. Do you agree? I do, because it is about the future of Scotland
:45:59. > :46:04.and what we can afford in terms of public services. The problem of
:46:04. > :46:10.this debate is we're having it in the context of a block grant, and
:46:10. > :46:15.not in terms of a progressive taxation system for Scotland.
:46:15. > :46:20.People seem to want Scandinavian levels of public services and pay
:46:20. > :46:25.American levels of taxation. That is frankly unaffordable. We need a
:46:25. > :46:34.full and frank debate. I agree with Susan, needed better space, but
:46:34. > :46:39.frankly, Commission is not the way forward. If it is about tax-raising,
:46:39. > :46:47.tax spending powers, to recover level, would that forced a more
:46:47. > :46:51.mature debate? I think the fact that we have had a spending only
:46:51. > :46:55.Parliament in place has not helped, it has been too easy for every
:46:55. > :47:03.party to say that they will spend more than the other lot. That has
:47:03. > :47:06.got to stop. But the whole question of taxation is not the only one at
:47:06. > :47:11.least here. We need to move away from talking about a affordability
:47:11. > :47:17.and how much money we have and move and took priorities and what would
:47:17. > :47:21.make a difference. The other thing we have learned over the years is
:47:21. > :47:27.that a lot of multi- million-pound government back policies have not
:47:27. > :47:32.done up in the changes in this country that we intended. My
:47:32. > :47:41.experience is that people outside of the political poll are up for
:47:41. > :47:47.that conversation much more so than As civil servants to prepare to
:47:47. > :47:50.depend a look decision to hand the West Coast Main Line franchise to
:47:50. > :47:55.FirstGroup the need a critical discovery, mistakes had been made
:47:56. > :47:59.and the minister had to pull the plug. The whole do battle has
:47:59. > :48:09.proved embarrassing and raised questions about compensate of the
:48:09. > :48:13.
:48:13. > :48:17.Government. -- good tackle. -- debacle. We are well used to delays
:48:17. > :48:22.on a British Railways. But not detained or cancellation we saw
:48:22. > :48:28.this week. The UK Government had to concede there were serious flaws in
:48:28. > :48:33.the way the West Coast franchise had been a lot at. The put back
:48:33. > :48:38.FirstGroup had been seriously miscalculated. Two investigations
:48:38. > :48:42.have been ordered. One will look at what went wrong with the West Coast
:48:42. > :48:46.franchise, the other will look at the wider franchise programme.
:48:46. > :48:55.There is now concern that the ScotRail franchise could be put
:48:55. > :48:59.back. It is due for renewal in 2014. There could be a delay at the
:48:59. > :49:06.inquiry does not give us answers to the questions being asked at the
:49:06. > :49:13.moment. It could be the case that not just ScotRail but many
:49:13. > :49:21.franchises across the UK could be delayed. Peps transport Scotland
:49:21. > :49:29.say the timetable will not slide. The process is led by an expert
:49:29. > :49:34.team who are drawing an external expertise and and when required.
:49:34. > :49:41.Passengers are being reassume that when Virgin's franchise ends,
:49:41. > :49:49.services will still run. I am extremely angry and apologetic. We
:49:49. > :49:54.must get to the bottom of it. will cost taxpayers �100 million.
:49:54. > :49:59.As the franchise system is scrutinised aviation policy is also
:49:59. > :50:03.being questioned. Could a her roots are critical for Scottish financial
:50:03. > :50:13.health. His concern businesses are being strangled by a lack of
:50:13. > :50:22.
:50:23. > :50:27.Services at Heathrow will be given over to a longer haul flight
:50:27. > :50:32.overseas. The Government has postponed a decision on Heathrow's
:50:32. > :50:36.third runway until after the 2015 election. Meanwhile, passengers are
:50:36. > :50:41.not impressed at the amount of tax they have to pay for flights.
:50:42. > :50:47.Airlines and travel agents want a review of air passenger duty.
:50:47. > :50:51.an expensive tax for outbound and inbound travellers. Our concern is
:50:51. > :51:01.the inequality of it, trying to dispense with many people being hit
:51:01. > :51:03.twice. The UK Government has been on a difficult journey this week.
:51:03. > :51:09.Passengers and business would smooth and efficient links. They
:51:09. > :51:12.demand ministers and officials delivered just that.
:51:12. > :51:19.Listing to that at the Conservative Party conference is the Scottish
:51:19. > :51:24.Cup -- Scotland Office Minister and MP David Mundell. Thank you for
:51:24. > :51:28.joining us. With the West Coast rail fiasco, the Transport Minister
:51:28. > :51:35.says it was deeply regrettable and unacceptable. How would you
:51:35. > :51:39.describe it? It was completely unacceptable. It was not followed
:51:39. > :51:43.in the procedure that it should have been. That is why there are
:51:43. > :51:46.two inquiries into it. The West Coast Main Line is a very important
:51:46. > :51:50.route, not just for my own constituency and Scotland, but for
:51:50. > :51:56.the whole of the United Kingdom. When we go through these
:51:56. > :52:03.complicated procedures, they have to be absolutely in order. The
:52:03. > :52:06.Government has put its hand up. Richard Branson said that he was
:52:06. > :52:10.not pleased with the way it had been done but that he was pleased
:52:10. > :52:15.with the honesty of the governor's approach in think it was wrong and
:52:15. > :52:19.unacceptable. The Government has not put its hand at, but simply
:52:19. > :52:25.blamed the Civil Service, which is a shabby thing to do. It used to be
:52:25. > :52:30.ministers who would take it on the chin and admit it was their fault.
:52:30. > :52:34.This is a very complicated and detailed process. What is clear is
:52:34. > :52:43.that it was some of the calculations in that process that
:52:43. > :52:46.were at fault in terms of getting the wrong assessment. Different
:52:46. > :52:50.bidders were given different information, which clearly is
:52:50. > :52:56.completely unacceptable. It is important that we have these
:52:56. > :53:00.reviews so that we know exactly what did go wrong and learn from
:53:00. > :53:05.that and get ahead and get the franchise awarded, either to the
:53:05. > :53:09.existing holder or to a new bidder, because the West Coast Main Line is
:53:09. > :53:14.extremely important for Scotland and the United Kingdom, and we
:53:14. > :53:22.wanted working as effectively as possible. What assurances can you
:53:22. > :53:26.give that this will not affect the ScotRail franchise bid?
:53:26. > :53:30.There is no reason to suggest it would affect the ScotRail franchise.
:53:30. > :53:35.You have heard that in your package. The benefit of the ScotRail
:53:35. > :53:41.franchise is that it is a very discreet franchise because it
:53:41. > :53:46.essentially covers the Scottish geography. Yes, but it is the model
:53:46. > :53:49.that is the problem. The Government is now saying that it could take a
:53:49. > :53:55.year to work out an appropriate franchising model for this. They
:53:55. > :53:58.could be delays on that. Can you give a guarantee that the 2014
:53:58. > :54:04.deadline will not be affected? not have any reason to think at
:54:04. > :54:07.this time that it will be affected. The Scottish Government themselves
:54:07. > :54:10.and Transport Scotland, who you have just spoken to, seemed very
:54:10. > :54:14.confident they will be able to do it, and they do not think that
:54:14. > :54:19.anything that will come out of this review will impact to delay the
:54:19. > :54:25.ScotRail franchise. You may have got it right now when saying that
:54:25. > :54:28.you will review it, but UK matter that from a bad place. You did but
:54:28. > :54:32.actually initiate this yourself and you had no concerns ourselves, and
:54:33. > :54:37.it was only when Richard Branson said it would be a judicial review.
:54:37. > :54:41.Your conference this week is about reassuring voters that you are a
:54:41. > :54:47.competent government, but this itself, even if you do not add in
:54:47. > :54:52.claims about the economy, hardly speaks to competent governments.
:54:52. > :54:55.Nobody is suggesting that this was a good thing. We have put our hands
:54:55. > :55:01.up and said it was unacceptable. We have said that we will take forward
:55:01. > :55:05.a review of it. It is not the first time that there has been a serious
:55:05. > :55:09.issue with the rail network. Under the last Labour government, the
:55:09. > :55:12.East work French-led -- the East Coast network franchise collapsed.
:55:12. > :55:20.These things happen. Peopling government have to take them in
:55:20. > :55:24.their stride, move Ford and learn from this experience is. Let's look
:55:24. > :55:30.at some stories in the papers today. The Sunday Telegraph has the story
:55:30. > :55:36.that the Prime Minister is promising a for council tax freeze.
:55:36. > :55:41.On BBC today, he spoke about that as well. That is a fantastic idea
:55:42. > :55:48.that your colleagues in Scotland should be rushing to embrace?
:55:48. > :55:52.you know and your viewers know is that they -- is that issues like
:55:52. > :55:58.council tax are devolved matters in Scotland, and therefore will be
:55:58. > :56:01.decided in Scotland. The council tax freeze as is being set out, it
:56:01. > :56:06.is up to the Scottish Government whether or not that continues. I
:56:06. > :56:09.welcome the debate that Johann Lamont has instigated in Scotland
:56:09. > :56:13.about different measures in Scotland. I think it will move
:56:13. > :56:16.forward the political debate. That debate is already happening in
:56:16. > :56:19.England in terms of what we can afford against the resources we
:56:19. > :56:23.have, and if we move forward and have that debate in Scotland,
:56:23. > :56:28.Scottish politics will take a step forward. Having had the debate,
:56:28. > :56:35.David Cameron says the council tax freezes a very useful thing to do
:56:35. > :56:41.for people on lower incomes. Isn't the principle just the same? It is
:56:42. > :56:45.a debate to be had in Scotland on a devolved issue. We supported the
:56:45. > :56:51.council tax freeze as it has been applied in Scotland, because it has
:56:51. > :56:55.helped those on low incomes. There is a debate to be had in Scotland
:56:55. > :56:59.in relation to the use of resources that we have available and what is
:56:59. > :57:02.the best use of those resources. I welcome that debate in Scotland,
:57:02. > :57:09.because in the past, the Conservatives tried to take that
:57:09. > :57:12.debate forward and were met with a wall of negativity. Other parties
:57:12. > :57:16.in Scotland are now waking up to the fact that there is a limited
:57:16. > :57:19.amount of money and you have to make decisions about how to deploy
:57:19. > :57:25.a those resources. I hope to see those debates happening in the
:57:25. > :57:31.Scottish Parliament. From another newspaper article today, you are
:57:31. > :57:36.quoted in Scotland on Sunday saying the SNP referendum plan well let
:57:36. > :57:39.teenagers down, because you are saying 16 and 17 year-olds would
:57:39. > :57:43.have to have a separate register which could be difficult to
:57:43. > :57:47.implement, and therefore it is not fair for those who would not be
:57:47. > :57:54.able to take part in the independence referendum. Should be
:57:54. > :57:59.not just see that as a clear steer that this is of the table now?
:57:59. > :58:03.don't think so. We are looking to reach agreement with the Scottish
:58:03. > :58:07.Government in the near future on the basis that the referendum can
:58:07. > :58:13.go ahead. We have set from the start, David Cameron has been very
:58:13. > :58:18.clear that he was willing to facilitate the referendum according
:58:18. > :58:23.to the SNP mandate in be manifesto last year. We have been working
:58:23. > :58:28.closely with them. There have been detailed negotiations which I have
:58:28. > :58:34.been involved in. We are close to getting in a -- agreement on the
:58:34. > :58:40.referendum taking place. 16 and 17 year-olds is one of the issues. The
:58:40. > :58:45.SNP position has been that they would give the vote to people who
:58:45. > :58:49.were on the electoral register. That means that not all teenagers
:58:49. > :58:53.would get the vote. That is a matter for them to explain to those
:58:53. > :58:58.teenagers in Scotland as to why they have decided to go down that
:58:58. > :59:02.route. I still don't support 16 and 17 year-olds voting, because I do
:59:02. > :59:06.not think you should change the franchise for a particular election.
:59:06. > :59:09.Let me ask you, when we have spoken about the debate which has been
:59:09. > :59:12.raised in Scotland about universal benefits, do you think the way it
:59:12. > :59:19.has been framed at the moment is the most constructive way to bring
:59:19. > :59:24.it forward? I think it is very helpful that we have that debate.
:59:24. > :59:29.We cannot continue in Scotland to pretend that everything can be free
:59:29. > :59:38.for everybody. But his the something for nothing tag fair or
:59:38. > :59:41.not? I think what is clear is that there are consequences to decisions.
:59:41. > :59:45.The consequences I see in my own constituency of free higher
:59:45. > :59:50.education is that there are Colleges suffering. If people make
:59:50. > :59:53.decisions that money will be spent in one area, they have to stand up
:59:53. > :59:58.and be prepared to accept the consequences in other areas, and we
:59:58. > :00:01.have not had that in Scotland. We have had an approach where
:00:01. > :00:08.everybody has joined in a communal view that everything can be for
:00:08. > :00:18.nothing. It can't. David Mundell, thank you very much.
:00:18. > :00:20.
:00:20. > :00:23.And now we can have a catch up with A church service has taken place in
:00:23. > :00:27.Machynlleth this morning to remember the missing five year-old
:00:27. > :00:33.April Jones. She was a do to close to her family's home last Monday
:00:34. > :00:41.evening. A 46-year-old man, Mark Bridger, has been charged with her
:00:41. > :00:48.abduction and murder. In the warm October sunshine, they
:00:48. > :00:58.came in their hundreds. Virtually a whole town, walking quietly deep in
:00:58. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :01:11.Then into the church for a special service for April. A poem for her
:01:12. > :01:21.mother in praise of motherhood. she is a sadness dealer, a cut knee
:01:22. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:30.he lair, had me tighter wrongness writer, Kerouac and chocolates --
:01:30. > :01:40.carer and chocolate Sheriff. While... Sometimes.
:01:40. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:46.Then the Lord's Prayer, into languages, but with one message.
:01:46. > :01:49.The service was relayed by speakers to those outside. Deep down, they
:01:50. > :01:56.know April is not coming back, but many here are still praying for a
:01:56. > :01:59.miracle. As the Conservative Party
:01:59. > :02:02.conference gets under way in Birmingham this afternoon, the
:02:02. > :02:08.Prime Minister has confirmed the Government needs to find more in
:02:08. > :02:12.welfare cuts by the next election. He said the rich will also has --
:02:12. > :02:16.the rich will have to pay more to help reduce the deficit. But he has
:02:16. > :02:21.rejected demands for a mansion tax on properties over �2 million a.
:02:21. > :02:25.I do not believe that we should be a country where if you work hard
:02:25. > :02:28.and saved and buy a house and to pay the mortgage and invested it, I
:02:29. > :02:33.don't want to be a country that comes after you every year with a
:02:33. > :02:38.massive tax, so that is not going to happen.
:02:38. > :02:41.We can get more on this from our political correspondent who is at
:02:41. > :02:48.the Conservative conference in Birmingham this lunch time. The
:02:48. > :02:51.Prime Minister is very clear that that -- that there is still a lot
:02:51. > :02:55.to be done to reduce the deficit. Yes, and he made it clear several
:02:55. > :03:00.times that he wants the rich to pay their share, but he did not spell
:03:00. > :03:04.out what he thinks that means. He is not going to take up the Liberal
:03:04. > :03:11.Democrat idea of a mansion tax. He does not like the idea of new
:03:11. > :03:16.council tax banding is either a. We have had a flurry of announcements
:03:16. > :03:19.today about capping rail fares. All that begs the question of where
:03:19. > :03:22.he's going to find the money. He has made it clear that the bid
:03:22. > :03:25.target is the welfare budget, which means more cuts to benefits,
:03:25. > :03:29.something that will be difficult and controversial when people are
:03:29. > :03:34.already struggling. Thank you very much.
:03:34. > :03:42.That is all the news for now. There is more on BBC One at 6:30pm this
:03:42. > :03:45.evening. Good afternoon. Scotland's Health
:03:45. > :03:51.Secretary has said that the 24 week limit for terminating pregnancies
:03:51. > :03:54.should be reduced. Speaking to Scotland on Sunday, Alex Neil said
:03:54. > :03:57.that legislation should be looked at in an independent Scotland, but
:03:57. > :04:03.made it clear that his views were personal.
:04:03. > :04:06.Jeremy Hunt has backed a reduction from the current 24 weeks to 12. Mr
:04:06. > :04:09.Neil was quoted as saying that there was a case for reduction, but
:04:09. > :04:13.that he did not know if 12 weeks was realistic.
:04:13. > :04:18.Homeless young people are being failed by a lack of support, a
:04:18. > :04:20.group of MSPs has claimed. A report by the equal opportunities
:04:21. > :04:27.committee says that many youngsters were profoundly disadvantaged by
:04:27. > :04:29.not having basic life skills such as cooking and budgeting. Some are
:04:29. > :04:32.also place in sub-standard accommodation. The committee is
:04:32. > :04:36.calling on the Scottish Government to check which councils like
:04:36. > :04:40.strategies to deal with the problem. We are not asking the Government to
:04:40. > :04:45.do anything that is not already there. We are asking them to work
:04:45. > :04:48.with local authorities to make sure there is more of a uniform process
:04:49. > :04:51.across the local authorities in Scotland so that it is not a
:04:51. > :04:56.postcode lottery for support for young people.
:04:56. > :05:00.More than �1 million has been given to local authorities to help
:05:00. > :05:05.support people with autism. It is the first time cash has been
:05:05. > :05:09.allocated since ministers launched their strategy last year. Around 30
:05:09. > :05:11.organisations will benefit from the Government's Autism Development
:05:11. > :05:20.Fund. Time to look at the weather
:05:20. > :05:23.So far this weekend, the weather has been lovely in this part of the
:05:23. > :05:26.country, which is because of this area of high pressure which
:05:26. > :05:30.continues to dominate the forecast this afternoon and into the
:05:30. > :05:38.beginning of next week. This afternoon is mainly dry across the
:05:38. > :05:42.country with some lovely spells of sunshine. Further North West, some
:05:42. > :05:52.cloud here at times with showers, feeling pleasant in the sunshine
:05:52. > :06:01.
:06:01. > :06:09.with like winds. They Green Park are now officially
:06:09. > :06:15.signed up to the S Scotland campaign. -- the Green Party. Our
:06:15. > :06:17.political correspondent was at their conference. The Greens are
:06:17. > :06:23.not normally obsessed with constitutional affairs. They care
:06:23. > :06:26.more about the environment. But Scotland is due to make it back his
:06:27. > :06:35.decision to the hundred Years In the Hat decided to be a farmer
:06:35. > :06:42.their broad commitment to independence. -- its by his
:06:42. > :06:48.decision in 300 years, the Green Party have decided. The debate
:06:48. > :06:58.taking place buying these stores is so important. It started with a
:06:58. > :07:07.chance for delegates to its tune. The after the political meditation,
:07:07. > :07:10.his speeches. Patrick Harvie had previously accused the yes Scotland
:07:10. > :07:18.movement as being dominated by their SNP but he said that progress
:07:18. > :07:25.had been made. It has evolved into the kind of organisation should
:07:25. > :07:30.have been on day one. I think it would be quite bizarre for us not
:07:30. > :07:35.to be involved with the main campaign that is looking to achieve
:07:35. > :07:43.that Yes vote. Being involved gives us the opportunity to put forward a
:07:43. > :07:46.radically different agenda about what the yes vote is all about.
:07:47. > :07:56.However it is fair to say that the party are not overly enthusiastic
:07:56. > :08:05.about independence. I am not a gung-ho about independence. It is
:08:05. > :08:12.not for Christmas, at his for life. Yes Scotland later held a fringe
:08:12. > :08:22.meeting. The their Greens have distinct arguments that favour
:08:22. > :08:26.
:08:26. > :08:31.independence. Would they be joining up? The answer was yes. Patrick
:08:32. > :08:36.Harvie is here now. Thank you for coming in. You're at decision to
:08:36. > :08:39.run your own independence campaign as well as signing up to the yes
:08:39. > :08:47.Scotland campaign would suggest that you still have reservations
:08:47. > :08:50.that the SNP will dominate the campaign. I suspect they will do
:08:50. > :08:54.the same thing and I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing for a
:08:54. > :08:58.political party to do. It is important that we speak up for the
:08:58. > :09:02.reasons why we support Scottish independence but also protect the
:09:02. > :09:07.Green Party's independence. Our distinctive and much more radical
:09:07. > :09:14.vision of what independence is about should come across during the
:09:14. > :09:21.campaign. In areas where that could be depression - for example it is
:09:21. > :09:25.important that you market your own territory - let's start by having a
:09:25. > :09:31.look at a story today that could potentially be very divisive. Just
:09:31. > :09:34.to get your opinion on it. Scotland On Sunday, the abortion law changed
:09:34. > :09:39.after independence. If the health minister saying this is his
:09:39. > :09:43.personal opinion. He believes that the 24 week when it should be
:09:43. > :09:48.reduced. We have spoken to him this morning and he says it is not
:09:48. > :09:55.government of party policy, either now or in an independent Scotland,
:09:55. > :10:03.because it could be a matter of conscience. Although he personally
:10:03. > :10:08.supports it. How divisive would that be? I certainly hope it does
:10:08. > :10:12.not become as polarised an issue as it is in some countries. That does
:10:13. > :10:17.not support either women's rights to access reproductive health
:10:17. > :10:23.services, or the white one of the debate. I am very clear that
:10:23. > :10:26.reproductive rights go hand in hand with reproductive health. My party
:10:26. > :10:30.and by at committed to supporting and defending a woman's right to
:10:30. > :10:35.choose. As soon as I read that article I immediately put in a
:10:35. > :10:39.written question asking whether the government remains committed to
:10:39. > :10:42.reproductive health services which are accessible and support
:10:42. > :10:47.reproductive rights of women. That will always need to be defended.
:10:47. > :10:50.But I think a new health secretary, so soon after being appointed,
:10:50. > :10:55.should have been a bit more thoughtful about how his comments
:10:55. > :10:59.would be interpreted. They will worry many people, that the SNP is
:10:59. > :11:05.about to make a pitch for a set of policies that I don't think they
:11:05. > :11:11.actually want to pitch for. This is an irresponsible way to present a
:11:11. > :11:15.personal opinion so soon after becoming the new Health Secretary.
:11:15. > :11:20.You also disagree with the First Minister that at there is a yes
:11:20. > :11:27.vote then everything can be signed and sealed in times for the
:11:27. > :11:31.Holyrood election of 2016. Do you think that is credible? I am very
:11:31. > :11:36.concerned about that time scale and have met the Scottish Government to
:11:36. > :11:39.discuss it. The idea that within 16 months you can not only conclude
:11:39. > :11:43.negotiations with the UK Government - which are remember, will not
:11:43. > :11:49.really begin until the summer after the referendum because it will be
:11:49. > :11:52.you key election to get through, the new UK government would begin
:11:52. > :11:59.negotiations in earnest - so what would become 89 months to conclude
:12:00. > :12:08.that it was nations about legalities, mechanics, assets, debt,
:12:08. > :12:13.liabilities -- eight of nine months, all of the organisational
:12:13. > :12:17.architecture, reserve functions, as well as thinking about how the
:12:17. > :12:21.Scottish Parliament must change, to be able to hold an independent
:12:21. > :12:31.government to account, I think that the headlong rush. We would end up
:12:31. > :12:34.
:12:34. > :12:39.making stakes on that time scale. So what would 2016 B? I would like
:12:39. > :12:42.to see a normal Scottish Parliament election but a wider, civic process
:12:42. > :12:47.much like a constitutional conventions but allowing people to
:12:47. > :12:49.debate what kind of constitution the one for Scotland. To
:12:49. > :12:52.participate it could need to involve all sides. So there would
:12:52. > :12:56.need to be time for people to get over the shock of the result.
:12:56. > :12:59.Because it would appear surprising result for some people. But
:12:59. > :13:06.everybody needs to participate in the discussion about what can the
:13:06. > :13:09.constitution we want. Once that is in place we can transfer of power.
:13:09. > :13:15.At that point should it be a referendum about what has been
:13:15. > :13:19.negotiated in the settlement? would be for the people to debate
:13:19. > :13:24.in the civic process. I would want an absolute ban on nuclear weapons
:13:24. > :13:29.operating on the Clyde but also participation in a nuclear defence
:13:29. > :13:32.alliance like any talk. Others would oppose that but I think we
:13:32. > :13:40.should debate the issues with participation from everybody in
:13:40. > :13:50.Scotland. A much longer process than that which has outline by
:13:50. > :13:56.
:13:56. > :14:06.their SNP. My view is that it been the to be. Statistics recently
:14:06. > :14:07.
:14:07. > :14:12.published do about rape fall a long history of campaigns about sexual
:14:12. > :14:18.violence. But has it succeeded in dispelling the myth that rape
:14:18. > :14:24.victims are asking for it? Recent sadistic suggest not. A 23% thought
:14:24. > :14:29.a woman was partially responsible act drunk when attacked. 17%
:14:29. > :14:34.thought she was partially to blame if she were revealing clothing. 15%
:14:34. > :14:44.shed she was partly to blame if flouting. 8% said rate could be a
:14:44. > :14:48.
:14:48. > :14:53.woman's fault that she had lots of The pornography is increasingly
:14:53. > :14:58.violent and extreme, and XTC lay it accessible. It tells young men and
:14:58. > :15:02.women that they should increasingly be available for sex, never say no,
:15:02. > :15:08.and always enjoy it. This has become part of the culture, and
:15:08. > :15:15.normal way of looking at women. It is everywhere. Women fear these
:15:15. > :15:18.prejudices could work against them and the courts. To the concern is
:15:18. > :15:23.that this will be two more acquittals. That jurors will look
:15:23. > :15:28.at the evidence, the complainant, and pink, she was drinking, she
:15:28. > :15:35.wore revealing clothing, the therefore she is somehow
:15:35. > :15:38.responsible. How can negative stereotypes be smashed? In a
:15:38. > :15:45.ground-breaking project will be so trying to encourage older children
:15:45. > :15:50.to make sure youngsters get the message that no means no. We wanted
:15:50. > :15:55.to train the young and mentors to going to classes and to talk about
:15:55. > :16:01.quite difficult subject. Rate, eight violence, other forms of
:16:01. > :16:09.abusive behaviour. FOR the first time police are trying to get me
:16:09. > :16:13.into top one another about where to draw the line. Will these attempts
:16:13. > :16:17.change the prevailing culture of prejudice. I enjoy my a
:16:17. > :16:23.representative of Rape Crisis Scotland. In Edinburgh is human
:16:23. > :16:33.rights lawyer, John Scott. Thank you both are coming in. Women look
:16:33. > :16:34.
:16:34. > :16:38.at this prevailing culture, why does it persist? I think attitudes
:16:38. > :16:42.which really made a woman for every 10 to be put to lay engrained
:16:42. > :16:47.within the Scottish Society and by the UK as a whole. Abbey efforts to
:16:47. > :16:52.try to improve and challenge these attitudes. The 10 to focus on the
:16:52. > :16:59.victims rather than the perpetrators. We need a much more
:16:59. > :17:03.sustained approach. We need to transform attitudes within Scotland.
:17:03. > :17:13.What is undoubted is that it stops people coming forward and the first
:17:13. > :17:17.
:17:17. > :17:22.place because of fear of being blamed. Let me ask a legal point
:17:22. > :17:27.that seems to be emerging. When that decision was made to end
:17:27. > :17:31.corroboration and retrials, criminal trials, the idea that was
:17:31. > :17:34.getting rid of it could be quite useful and boost the number of
:17:34. > :17:39.convictions and. Now there's a sense that getting rid of co-
:17:39. > :17:42.operation might have the opposite effect. If these attitudes, as we
:17:42. > :17:50.have seen in the film, art displayed by jurors took rape
:17:50. > :17:55.victims. There is a potential problem. The question of attitudes
:17:55. > :17:59.is far more important than those of evidence, like for more
:17:59. > :18:03.requirements for corroboration. The work of the pylons reduction Unit,
:18:03. > :18:08.that is exactly the sort of thing that, along with improved media
:18:08. > :18:12.coverage, which will have a greater chance of defecting attitudes. To
:18:12. > :18:18.simply abolish corroboration - and the MRC that happen things which
:18:18. > :18:23.this Government have done which I consider to be brave and right,
:18:23. > :18:29.trying to do something serious about reducing prison overcrowding
:18:29. > :18:33.and shot and prison sentences - but in relation to its a clear decision
:18:33. > :18:42.to scrap or operation I think they are wrong and they will reconsider
:18:42. > :18:49.I hope. With a potential consequence speedy -- what a
:18:49. > :18:56.potential consequence de that more leeway would be allowed to ask more
:18:56. > :19:02.interest and the appropriate questions? It is hard to say. The
:19:02. > :19:09.legislation is there. I think legislation which prevents an
:19:09. > :19:14.appropriate questions being asked, works. We need to have a whole
:19:14. > :19:21.measure, a whole review of other safeguards as part of that. That
:19:21. > :19:26.would undoubtedly mean reviewing the rate legislation. Moving on
:19:26. > :19:31.from general attitudes to rape victims, once they're in the system,
:19:31. > :19:35.who people are treated if they have been a victim, Strathclyde Police
:19:35. > :19:40.are saying that they are going to set up women who will be trained to
:19:40. > :19:43.offer counselling to victims and assist police with interviews.
:19:43. > :19:49.Female only assistance teams. That announcement has been made in the
:19:49. > :19:56.Herald today. Will that be helpful? Do me to look at the court process,
:19:56. > :20:00.not just the culture? I think it is helpful. How do we get to support
:20:00. > :20:04.complaints through the process? It is dramatic and difficult evidence
:20:04. > :20:07.they have to go. The better evidence you will get the more you
:20:07. > :20:10.support the victim. But I would like to go back to the
:20:10. > :20:17.corroboration. Briefly. I can understand the concern about
:20:17. > :20:21.whether it actually increases the focus. But I do think we need to be
:20:21. > :20:25.realistic, already it is difficult to see how it could be worse than
:20:26. > :20:32.it is. Because there is so much focus on the complainants behaviour
:20:32. > :20:36.both leading up to and during the assault. I don't think we should
:20:36. > :20:40.look at this in a vacuum. If we remove corroboration people will
:20:40. > :20:43.say there is a concerned, but what about the role of judges? They have
:20:43. > :20:48.a responsibility to make sure complainants are not abused and
:20:48. > :20:51.humiliated. And also defence lawyers, wave their ethical
:20:51. > :21:01.responsibility? Would you draw the line and took out what you're what
:21:01. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:15.-- about what you put in a witness Would it be useful for us to talk
:21:15. > :21:20.to juries about their attitudes? Research into juries would be
:21:20. > :21:27.useful. In some other countries it is possible, and we know more from
:21:27. > :21:31.elsewhere, like America and New Zealand, about how juries operate.
:21:31. > :21:38.Some of what we discover might alarm us and some of what we
:21:38. > :21:41.discover would undoubtedly reassure us. At the moment it is difficult
:21:41. > :21:46.to know how they operate. In particular, with the availability
:21:46. > :21:51.of prejudicial material on the internet, that is a real problem.
:21:51. > :21:56.On the question of corroboration again, corroboration acts as a
:21:56. > :21:59.safeguard. Many people think it has been watered down too much.
:21:59. > :22:03.Corroboration and the existence of corroborating evidence in many
:22:03. > :22:07.cases leads to people pleading guilty. Is corroboration is a
:22:07. > :22:12.requirement, pressure of work and resources on the part of the police
:22:12. > :22:15.will be -- will lead to corroboration not being sought.
:22:15. > :22:25.That will lead to an increase in the number of miscarriages of
:22:25. > :22:30.
:22:30. > :22:32.justice in the court. Sandy at Rape Crisis Scotland wants to see more
:22:33. > :22:36.miscarriages of justice, but it is equally a miscarriage of justice if
:22:36. > :22:40.somebody is wrongly convicted. Thank you very much.
:22:40. > :22:50.In a moment, we will discuss what has made the newspapers today. What
:22:50. > :22:54.
:22:54. > :23:00.is coming up in politics. Let's Good news on the jobs front after
:23:00. > :23:04.the collapse of sports chain JJB. The owner of meet pressing -- a
:23:04. > :23:06.meat processing plant said it will also close in a buyer is not found
:23:07. > :23:11.by February. The American tycoon Donald Trump
:23:11. > :23:15.was back in Aberdeen, saying his fight against plans for a wind farm
:23:15. > :23:17.off his new Golf resort will not be thrown off course. Scottish
:23:17. > :23:22.National Heritage drop his opposition.
:23:22. > :23:26.Some of the country's most high- profile lawyers lined up to press
:23:26. > :23:32.the off switch on televised criminal trials.
:23:32. > :23:39.Chris Hoy opened the bedroom that bears his name as the push to open
:23:39. > :23:42.be Commonwealth Games builds up. will attract people to get into the
:23:42. > :23:48.sport and produce champions of the future.
:23:48. > :23:58.Martha Payne's blog became an internet hit. She has been to
:23:58. > :23:59.
:23:59. > :24:09.Malawi to see how the money she Now time to have a look at the week
:24:09. > :24:12.
:24:12. > :24:18.The author Kirsty Scott and economic commentator Alf Young are
:24:18. > :24:26.here in the studio with me now. The former Auditor-General. Does it
:24:26. > :24:30.matter what he says? It matters in that the debate is moving into a
:24:30. > :24:35.different debate. We had an early stage where we said that Johann
:24:35. > :24:39.Lamont has blown it. She opened the door to the SNP and there was a lot
:24:39. > :24:43.of horse trading in the chain that. But there is a debate to be had,
:24:43. > :24:48.because, as I see it, every budget is finite. Every budget involves
:24:48. > :24:54.choices, and in a real democracy, you talk about the choices and why
:24:54. > :24:59.we have those choices. Why do we have some things that are free at
:24:59. > :25:03.point of access, and what does it cost and other areas? We need to
:25:03. > :25:07.have that debate. We are in a financial mess. The whole Western
:25:07. > :25:12.world is in a financial mess. commission the best way to
:25:12. > :25:16.regulated? We do need a debate, but I am not so sure about the
:25:16. > :25:20.commissioner. Susan Deacon was saying it area as if she was
:25:20. > :25:27.parking the issue, which might let politicians off the hook. A
:25:27. > :25:31.journalist writing in the Sunday Herald today talked in broad terms
:25:31. > :25:35.about the social contract between the Government and the people of
:25:35. > :25:40.Scotland in which these universal benefits were enshrined, but he did
:25:40. > :25:44.not seem to engage in the debate. Is it a difficult debate for which
:25:44. > :25:54.to find the right language? It has got to be framed very carefully.
:25:54. > :25:54.
:25:54. > :25:58.Has that happened? No. You have got the exchanges, you saw, I don't
:25:58. > :26:02.think the arguments really take us anywhere. We need to have a debate
:26:02. > :26:06.about what we are prepared to commit a social good and public
:26:06. > :26:11.good in society, and what we expect in return. And you are saying, be
:26:11. > :26:16.honest about the price tag. Yes, and the thing about the commission,
:26:16. > :26:19.in a word, is that it is unaccountable. You do not want an
:26:19. > :26:23.and accountable commission deciding what our priorities are for us. You
:26:23. > :26:29.want a democracy where people make choices. And where politicians help
:26:29. > :26:39.make those decisions with you. the Herald today, they lead with
:26:39. > :26:39.
:26:39. > :26:46.Alex Neil saying that he thinks the 24th week limit on abortions should
:26:46. > :26:50.be reduced. Already a massive storm on Twitter about this. I saw that
:26:50. > :26:54.this morning, following on from Jeremy Hunt last week. What has
:26:54. > :27:03.been missing from the debate is another middle-aged man with
:27:03. > :27:07.religious leanings deciding what women should do with their bodies!
:27:07. > :27:11.It is quite frightening, as a woman, to think we are going down this
:27:11. > :27:16.path now. Are we heading, as Patrick Harvie was heading --
:27:16. > :27:19.saying, towards the US culture on abortion rights? I saw a
:27:19. > :27:24.distressing this morning to see that story, and for him to step
:27:24. > :27:28.back and say it is a personal view is disingenuous, because he is the
:27:28. > :27:34.Health Secretary. As an elderly man are entering into this debate, why
:27:34. > :27:37.two men who do not know much about health are given responsibility for
:27:37. > :27:40.running the health service in these different parts of the United
:27:40. > :27:43.Kingdom, and the first public pronouncement they make is about
:27:43. > :27:48.their own personal views on when women should be allowed to have an
:27:48. > :27:52.abortion, it is just wrong politics, apart from anything else. They
:27:52. > :27:57.should be learning about the system they are trying to improve and
:27:57. > :28:01.doing that before they open their mouths. And they always catch it in
:28:01. > :28:11.either ideological or scientific terms and in no way do they
:28:11. > :28:11.
:28:11. > :28:15.discussed women's experience. absolutely agree. David Mundell is
:28:15. > :28:19.in the newspaper saying it would be too difficult to get 16 and 17
:28:19. > :28:25.year-olds in two specific registers for the referendum vote. That
:28:25. > :28:29.really would not be unfair on the SNP's proposal. What does that mean,
:28:29. > :28:33.it is of the table? It could mean that it is off the table, but I
:28:33. > :28:37.always thought it was flawed and the first place. If you are going
:28:37. > :28:41.to give teenagers the right to vote on the future constitutional state
:28:41. > :28:45.of their nation, I have problems with that. But if you are going to
:28:45. > :28:51.give them that, they need to be given the right to vote in every
:28:51. > :28:55.election thereafter. Why not extend the franchise from 16 to 18? That
:28:55. > :28:59.is the most sensible thing to do. The response from Nicola Sturgeon's
:28:59. > :29:03.spokes people to this issue that David Mundell has raised, they said
:29:03. > :29:06.that it has been a key part of what they have been discussing and it is
:29:06. > :29:12.something they are keen to have. They do not sound completely
:29:12. > :29:14.committed to it. We are close to a done deal? We need to get it done.
:29:15. > :29:19.We need the legislation if we're going to have the vote at all.
:29:19. > :29:25.There is still that lingering other story about whether it looks like
:29:25. > :29:29.it will be yes or no. They might not want the fight happen anyway!