:00:39. > :00:43.Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday politics.
:00:43. > :00:47.As the stand-off between Israel and Hamas continues, the Foreign
:00:47. > :00:52.Secretary calls for restraint on both sides. Is anyone listening?
:00:52. > :00:58.That is our top story. After about be swept across England
:00:58. > :01:01.and Wales last week, if we will ask the Tory chairman, will the police
:01:01. > :01:05.commissioner's de back will Leeds David Cameron's dreams of firing up
:01:05. > :01:11.society? And his Ed Miliband getting a bit
:01:12. > :01:14.carried away after his party's victory? We will have the Shadow
:01:14. > :01:18.Home Secretary here to ask whether this triumph is anything more than
:01:18. > :01:22.a routine mid-term setback for Government?
:01:22. > :01:26.And is it time for prisoners to get the boat? It might increase the
:01:26. > :01:28.turnout! Under pressure, the Government will put options before
:01:28. > :01:31.Parliament. And on Sunday Politics Scotland...
:01:31. > :01:34.With funding cuts and mergers happening in the college sector, we
:01:34. > :01:44.look at how this is affecting Further Education students and ask
:01:44. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :38:01.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2177 seconds
:38:01. > :38:07.are the Universities benefiting Have a four year option it is not
:38:07. > :38:11.an option in this country. I would support South Africa. They have
:38:11. > :38:17.given us a very good message. They have been through an awful
:38:17. > :38:23.experience... You want all prisoners to get the vote? To yes,
:38:23. > :38:27.I do believe that. That is interesting. What happens if we
:38:27. > :38:32.don't give prisoners the vote and we end up having to pay millions of
:38:32. > :38:38.pounds in compensation to them? would not have to pay millions of
:38:38. > :38:44.pounds. Even if the court fined us, we would not have to pay it. In UK
:38:44. > :38:49.law, there has already cases before British courts and there will be
:38:49. > :38:57.more. If parliaments boats in the negative... That should be the end
:38:57. > :39:03.of it. It won't be the end of it. If you ignore the European Court,
:39:03. > :39:08.as you seem to want to do, then you were also ignoring UK law, because
:39:08. > :39:17.under the Human Rights Act, the European Court decisions are
:39:17. > :39:21.incorporated into UK law. This is bigger than a prisoner vote. This
:39:21. > :39:26.is a new thing that is being established. We are saying that the
:39:26. > :39:32.European Court is subservient to the British Parliament. Parliament
:39:32. > :39:36.will vote on its... The whole point is that it is that of Parliament.
:39:36. > :39:44.You can subject you are decisions to judicial review against certain
:39:44. > :39:52.principles that you have signed up to. Even United agree on this...
:39:52. > :39:56.doubt it. He is an intelligent, sensible person. You would accept
:39:56. > :40:01.that the independence of the judicial system from politicians...
:40:01. > :40:05.Yes, the British judicial system. The Supreme Court of this country.
:40:05. > :40:11.That is worth begins and ends. we have incorporated the convention
:40:11. > :40:15.into British law, then it is British law. And that is what this
:40:15. > :40:20.book will be about. He wants to float this island off somewhere
:40:20. > :40:26.else. Would you allow prisoners to vote on police and crime
:40:26. > :40:31.Commissioner elections? Obviously. You vote for MPs to make laws,
:40:31. > :40:39.councillors implement laws, European MPs to vote... Even though
:40:39. > :40:44.you are a criminal...? You can vote if you're a remand prisoner at the
:40:44. > :40:50.moment... Is prisoners were allowed to vote, it might actually increase
:40:50. > :40:55.the turnout in these elections. one thing Ella from the Police and
:40:55. > :40:59.Criminal elections is, you do not have elections in November. Maybe
:40:59. > :41:03.we just don't elect police commissioners. On that shock
:41:03. > :41:08.agreement here on the Sunday politics, we will leave it there.
:41:08. > :41:16.It is the closest we have got to an agreement in the past six minutes.
:41:16. > :41:19.Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up
:41:19. > :41:22.on the programme... The political point scoring over
:41:22. > :41:32.Further Education College Budgets' played out at Holyrood this week,
:41:32. > :41:33.
:41:33. > :41:39.when it turned out the sums were wrong. This figure should have been
:41:39. > :41:42.556 million, not 545 million. I apologise to the chamber for this
:41:42. > :41:48.error. We look behind the verbal sparring
:41:48. > :41:53.at the substantial changes happening in the college sector. I
:41:53. > :41:57.will be on the farm to see how the rural sector is coping after a
:41:57. > :42:02.terrible summer. And how easy is it to slide into
:42:02. > :42:05.poverty? We look at the numbers and ask why they are important.
:42:05. > :42:08.What a torrid time in Scotland's Further Education Sector. The First
:42:08. > :42:10.Minister had to apologise to Holyrood for using incorrect
:42:10. > :42:14.funding figures while calls continue for an inquiry into the
:42:14. > :42:18.role of the Education Secretary in a college chairman's resignation.
:42:18. > :42:21.But behind the sound and fury, what is the reality for colleges and
:42:21. > :42:31.their students. Are they being sacrificed to keep the university
:42:31. > :42:32.
:42:32. > :42:39.sector sweet? Our reporter has been crunching the numbers.
:42:39. > :42:44.Away from the politics, away from that talk of spy-pens, this is what
:42:44. > :42:47.our college students are doing - gaining a skill in the midst of a
:42:47. > :42:52.new world of worry. And it is not just about getting a job. It is
:42:52. > :42:57.about whether their course will survive the cuts. At the cuts are
:42:57. > :43:00.coming in now. Am I going to be able to stay here? Is it worries me,
:43:00. > :43:10.because I feel that this is my time to better myself and help my
:43:10. > :43:15.children. Let's look at her college maths. Since 2000, the number of
:43:15. > :43:20.students in our further education colleges has fallen by around 16%.
:43:20. > :43:25.In October, it was announced that just over 21,000 students were
:43:25. > :43:28.still on waiting lists. Around half of them were 16 year-olds to 19
:43:29. > :43:34.years old. The Scottish Government is not sure of these figures and
:43:34. > :43:37.has announced and all that. There are fears that those who need it
:43:37. > :43:42.most are missing out on further education. We are talking about
:43:42. > :43:46.single parents, people with care responsibilities. If these people
:43:46. > :43:50.are not given the opportunities in education, there are losing out.
:43:50. > :43:55.They will not get back into employment and Scotland is losing
:43:55. > :43:59.talented people. Three-quarters of the further education budget comes
:43:59. > :44:07.from the Scottish Government. But all that Scotland has predicted
:44:07. > :44:14.that grant will fall. From 545 million this year to 471 million in
:44:14. > :44:18.2014. That is a real-terms cut of 24%. Discovers Government hopes to
:44:18. > :44:25.achieve all this by merging colleges. 37 colleges will become
:44:25. > :44:31.no more than 23. The thought of these cuts proved too much for one
:44:31. > :44:34.former principal and Labour Party member. I did not want to spend the
:44:34. > :44:41.last five years in the college dismantling what it had taken 20
:44:41. > :44:46.years to build. I got out. believes the focus on full-time
:44:46. > :44:51.courses will exclude some students. If you say to them, come for a year
:44:51. > :44:55.and you will get a qualification. A year is a long time. However, if
:44:55. > :45:00.you can come for six weeks and then come for another six weeks and
:45:00. > :45:07.maybe another 12 weeks after that, then you start to make progress and
:45:07. > :45:16.young people getting gauge -- get engaged and stay. This opportunity
:45:17. > :45:20.is not being restricted, says the SNP. The whole idea of this is to
:45:20. > :45:26.focus and ensured that Scotland's young people to have a good future.
:45:26. > :45:30.But some believe vocational courses are being sacrificed to fund our
:45:30. > :45:34.universities. If you cut universities, there will be the
:45:34. > :45:40.chattering parties in the elites who will start to make political
:45:41. > :45:42.trouble. But the people in the East End of Glasgow, they will be the
:45:42. > :45:48.politically dispossessed or the politically illiterate and
:45:48. > :45:51.therefore, even if they do object, they will not know how to fight it.
:45:51. > :45:55.For the last week, further education colleges have been a
:45:55. > :46:03.party political playground of accusations and counter allegations
:46:03. > :46:06.on both sides. These students just want clarity about their future and
:46:06. > :46:09.the future of our education system. We asked the Scottish Government if
:46:09. > :46:11.the Education Secretary, Mike Russell, could come on the
:46:11. > :46:13.programme today. They said he was unavailable. Instead they gave us
:46:13. > :46:16.this statement: "The Scottish Government is
:46:16. > :46:18.committed to the role of Scotland's colleges in building the economy.
:46:18. > :46:21.Our college sector is being reformed to bring colleges closer
:46:21. > :46:24.together on a regional basis to cut out inefficiency and duplication,
:46:24. > :46:26.as well as improving links with employers. In the face of
:46:26. > :46:28.substantial cuts from the Westminster government, we have
:46:28. > :46:31.maintained high levels of investment in a sector which has
:46:31. > :46:34.been neglected over a number of years to ensure Scotland's young
:46:34. > :46:43.people can maximise their chances of finding employment following a
:46:43. > :46:51.college course". So instead, we are joined by
:46:51. > :46:54.Scottish Labour's Education spokesperson, Hugh Henry. We have
:46:54. > :46:58.just heard this morning that the Liberal Democrats are saying there
:46:58. > :47:03.must be much greater clarity on funding before the budget vote next
:47:03. > :47:06.month. They're saying they want a fresh vote on college funding. They
:47:07. > :47:11.also want the education committee to have an inquiry into over all
:47:11. > :47:15.strategic funding of colleges. Does Labour support that?
:47:15. > :47:19.These are helpful suggestions. It is unfortunate the Cabinet
:47:19. > :47:23.Secretary would not come on the programme. Twice, he has made a
:47:23. > :47:25.untruthful statements to us and we need to get to the bottom of this.
:47:26. > :47:29.The Liberal Democrats are suggesting that we cannot make
:47:29. > :47:34.decisions without accurate figures. We need to know why wrong figures
:47:34. > :47:39.were given to the Scottish Parliament. It is fundamental to
:47:39. > :47:43.the Budget decision making and the credibility of the Parliament.
:47:43. > :47:48.Were the correct figures not given it to the Education Committee?
:47:48. > :47:53.Yes, but Michael Russell knowingly give wrong information. In June, he
:47:53. > :47:57.said there were no cuts. In October, accurate figures were given to the
:47:57. > :48:02.education committee. He did not take the opportunity to come back
:48:02. > :48:06.to Parliament and apologise. Last week, he said that he had never
:48:06. > :48:10.said that there were no cuts. We need to know why he did this. But
:48:10. > :48:13.also, we need to know where the First Minister then give an
:48:13. > :48:18.accurate information last week when the information was in the public
:48:18. > :48:23.going into the education committee in October? The credibility of both
:48:23. > :48:27.those ministers is under question. It could be argued that human
:48:27. > :48:30.beings make mistakes. The actual written statement was given to the
:48:30. > :48:35.Education Committee, so you could argue that there was no intent to
:48:35. > :48:38.mislead you. Let's find out of it is. I have
:48:38. > :48:40.written to the First Minister to ask if he will present to
:48:40. > :48:43.Parliament all the written information that he had when he
:48:44. > :48:47.stood up to make that statement to Parliament.
:48:47. > :48:51.Is it your concern that the autonomy of further education
:48:51. > :48:56.colleges has been eroded? I think it is. Forums are bringing
:48:56. > :48:59.in unwelcome changes. The Cabinet Secretary of Education promised
:48:59. > :49:04.college principals and boards that the appointments to the new boards
:49:04. > :49:08.would be done through the Public appointments system. He then
:49:08. > :49:15.grenades done that and he has made the appointments himself. What we
:49:15. > :49:18.have is a number of people whose being now depends on the Cabinet
:49:18. > :49:22.Secretary. That will intimidate them into thinking twice about what
:49:22. > :49:27.they say. They are in turn influential in the. That of
:49:27. > :49:31.principles. This brings him quite a significant degree of if
:49:31. > :49:35.ministerial control and interference.
:49:35. > :49:39.What would it affects the? The minister could determine who is
:49:39. > :49:42.running Scotland's colleges on a day-to-day basis. And if they say
:49:42. > :49:47.or do something that a minister doesn't like, there will be hauled
:49:47. > :49:51.over the coals. We have already seen the representatives from
:49:51. > :49:54.Scotland's colleges all then to be given a grilling by the Cabinet
:49:54. > :49:57.Secretary because they had the temerity to say that there was
:49:57. > :50:01.waiting list and students were being affected. We cannot have
:50:01. > :50:05.colleges scared to speak out because the Cabinet Secretary might
:50:05. > :50:12.not like it. What you think the effect of
:50:12. > :50:17.mergers will be? Of what will that effect be on students?
:50:17. > :50:21.Be in some areas, it might make sense to merge some colleges. But
:50:21. > :50:27.the Cabinet Secretary has decided to leave some colleges on their own.
:50:27. > :50:32.In my part of the world, he has decided to merge Clydebank with
:50:32. > :50:36.three other colleges. Heidi students from Clydebank get to
:50:36. > :50:40.Greenock if they want to study a specific course? They have to go to
:50:40. > :50:43.the city centre in Glasgow and then get the train. We're often talking
:50:43. > :50:47.about students from low-income families who are struggling to go
:50:47. > :50:52.to college in the first place and then on top of that, we give an
:50:52. > :50:57.added burden. There is no cohesion in the way that this has been done.
:50:57. > :51:01.This is a crude attempt to save money and he is destroying and
:51:01. > :51:06.undermining morale. In a tight budget settlement, money
:51:06. > :51:11.has to be saved. How would you balance the books?
:51:11. > :51:14.There are a number of things that the Cabinet Secretary has to do.
:51:15. > :51:20.Some of the consequences are results of decisions he has made.
:51:20. > :51:27.We are cutting colleges but we are spending �75 million per year to
:51:27. > :51:31.fund to new students. That figure will rise to �225 billion per year
:51:31. > :51:37.if that Scotland leave the UK. McGurk's bar told the Parliament he
:51:37. > :51:44.would sort that out. And university tuition fees?
:51:44. > :51:49.Yes, but he has failed to come back. University tuition fees?
:51:50. > :51:54.We need to have an honest debate. We are helping well-off people in
:51:54. > :51:57.this country, people such as myself and the First Minister and Michael
:51:57. > :52:04.Russell, and we are making my constituents, who are low-income
:52:04. > :52:08.families, paid dearly. Because of SNP cuts, we have seen disabled
:52:08. > :52:12.people being charged to go to adopt a centres.
:52:12. > :52:18.If we just focus on the education issue, are you saying that in some
:52:18. > :52:22.ways, the further education sector is suffering because there shoring
:52:22. > :52:26.up the university sector? Further education has been
:52:26. > :52:36.penalised at the expense of universities. We need world-class
:52:36. > :52:39.
:52:39. > :52:44.universities, but not at the Farmers in Scotland are counting
:52:44. > :52:48.the cost of a washout summer. NFU Scotland have given us initial
:52:48. > :52:52.results of a survey which suggests that one-third of farmers still
:52:52. > :52:57.have crops left and harvested. As farmers lose money hand over fist
:52:57. > :53:01.there is pressure in Europe to cut subsidies.
:53:01. > :53:06.As autumn rolls into winter, the effects of the terrible weather are
:53:06. > :53:11.still being felt on farms on the east coast. It has been a difficult
:53:11. > :53:15.here. The weather in summer and autumn has been atrocious. Securing
:53:15. > :53:20.all the crops has been very difficult. They yield happen much
:53:20. > :53:24.more, 50 or 60% of normal crops. Andrew received thousands of pounds
:53:24. > :53:29.per year from the EU Common Agriculture Policy. He is still
:53:29. > :53:34.making a loss of �1,000 per week. It is a common experience this year.
:53:34. > :53:39.Initial results from an NFU survey suggests that one third of animal,
:53:39. > :53:46.potato and vegetable farmers have crops left on harvested, a lot of
:53:46. > :53:51.work for no return. 10% of arable farmers still had more than half of
:53:51. > :53:57.their crops in the field. Cereals and crops are title to the industry.
:53:57. > :54:02.We have had extra cost, that is the reality of these conditions. Drew's
:54:02. > :54:06.yield and quality has played a lot of money from our industry. He will
:54:06. > :54:09.get a survey, 40-45% of respondents believe they will have to extend
:54:10. > :54:13.their credit lines just to secure the money to plant the crops next
:54:13. > :54:18.year. For struggling dairy farmers, poor
:54:18. > :54:22.weather piled on the misery. situation is difficult, all of the
:54:22. > :54:27.input costs that we need to run the farm have risen due to factors
:54:27. > :54:30.outwith our control. The price we're getting for milk his average
:54:30. > :54:35.to poor. We need more money to cover the cost.
:54:35. > :54:38.As farmers here in five try to make a living from the land, key
:54:38. > :54:42.decisions about their livelihoods are made far away and across the
:54:43. > :54:48.North Sea in Brussels. David Cameron will be there next
:54:48. > :54:52.week to try and secured a freeze in the EU budget. That could further
:54:52. > :54:56.reduce the money available to farmers, which has already been cut.
:54:56. > :55:00.What we're seeing at the moment is a significant cut in direct
:55:00. > :55:05.payments of seven or eight or even 9%. And then even greater cut in
:55:05. > :55:10.rural development of something close to 20%.
:55:10. > :55:15.The Common Agricultural Policy Hoovers up 39% of the EU budget.
:55:15. > :55:19.Labour and the SNP MPs voted to actually cut the total budget, not
:55:19. > :55:22.just freeze it. The Rural Affairs Secretary had this promise to
:55:22. > :55:27.farmers. A new funding formula is being
:55:27. > :55:32.proposed that could eventually deliver a massive up with of �150
:55:32. > :55:37.million per year for Scotland. That is equivalent to �6,000 for every
:55:37. > :55:41.farm in this country. But there is a catch. Scotland will only qualify
:55:41. > :55:46.for this up with it if we remain a member state in their own rates.
:55:46. > :55:50.Where will that cash come from? It seems that the UK do not want to
:55:50. > :55:53.access that fund as it would affect the rebate. Although the European
:55:53. > :55:57.Commission told us that they were not sure that Mr Lockett's figure
:55:57. > :56:01.came from. Four other struggling industries watching this debate
:56:01. > :56:05.there is a hint of jealousy. Over the last number of years we have
:56:05. > :56:10.always been seen that we have been unfairly treated, especially in
:56:10. > :56:15.light of the high fuel costs. The farmers get the Common Agricultural
:56:15. > :56:19.Falk -- Common Agricultural Policy. Subsidies are currently being
:56:19. > :56:22.reformed. Any large drop in payments could have a significant
:56:22. > :56:26.effect on farmers, even if the sun shines next year.
:56:26. > :56:31.Joining us now from Elgin is the rural affairs and Environment
:56:31. > :56:35.Secretary Richard Lochhead. In Aberdeen studio there is the
:56:35. > :56:39.Conservative MSP Alex Johnstone who also has a family farm. Thank you
:56:39. > :56:45.both for speaking to us. Mr Lockett, please give us some in
:56:45. > :56:48.for where this figure of �6,000 per farmer comes from. Is this based on
:56:49. > :56:57.an independent Scotland having every date Award convergence
:56:57. > :57:02.criteria, which is equally noble? At the moment, support for Europe
:57:02. > :57:06.is very important for Scottish agriculture. If we were a member
:57:06. > :57:09.state in our own right, the formal which has been proposed as part of
:57:09. > :57:14.the current negotiations for the next six or seven years would
:57:14. > :57:19.actually deliver more payments and support at to Scotland, and that
:57:19. > :57:22.will not be a case via the UK at the moment. At the moment we have
:57:22. > :57:26.the fourth lowest level of single farm payment in all the countries
:57:26. > :57:30.in Europe. For the Rural Development Fund in general, we
:57:30. > :57:34.actually get the lowest within the UK and the UK gets the lowest in
:57:34. > :57:39.Europe. We are the lowest of the lowest when it comes to the rural
:57:39. > :57:44.development in Europe. That is a poor deal for Scotland. Alex
:57:44. > :57:50.Johnstone, to these figures add up? I think as we have seen in a number
:57:50. > :57:54.of areas, the SNP's figures do not add up. The truth is we do not know
:57:54. > :57:57.what position we would be and if Scotland became independent.
:57:57. > :58:01.Ironically, every time you read this in Parliament SNP argue that
:58:01. > :58:05.Scotland is already a member of the UK and we already know what the
:58:05. > :58:10.Thames would be. When it suits their purpose to suggest that it
:58:10. > :58:15.would be different if Scotland were independent, we can see that this
:58:15. > :58:18.is not consistent with the general approach. What we do know is that
:58:18. > :58:22.will the Westminster Government does not want to secure the rebate,
:58:22. > :58:27.Scottish farmers are losing out. The UK Government are very
:58:27. > :58:30.concerned about the rebate, but the direction of travel is that support
:58:30. > :58:33.for agriculture is being put into the eastern European and southern
:58:33. > :58:38.European countries where the effort will be focused in years to come.
:58:38. > :58:42.The idea that Scotland can somehow buck the trend and reverse the
:58:42. > :58:46.movement of resources and bring more money to Scotland is one that
:58:46. > :58:52.would surprise at great many small countries across Europe.
:58:52. > :58:56.Richard, is it not the case that the SNP wants the budget freeze and
:58:56. > :59:01.given that the Cap is about 39% of big European budget, that would
:59:01. > :59:05.have a massive effect? We have this crazy position at the moment what
:59:05. > :59:10.the UK Government just lost a vote in the House of Commons all over an
:59:10. > :59:13.increase in the EU overall budget. At the same time in Brussels and
:59:13. > :59:17.Europe they are arguing over a substantial cut in the cap money
:59:17. > :59:21.that goes to Scotland's farms. This could put thousands of farms in
:59:21. > :59:25.Scotland out of business. It seems a strange position for the UK
:59:25. > :59:30.Government to be in. Alex Johnstone's party was defeated in
:59:30. > :59:35.House of Commons, but they actually won a substantial cut within the
:59:35. > :59:39.farming budget. The whole of industry in Scotland is behind us,
:59:39. > :59:43.tried to resist this movement from the UK Government in Brussels.
:59:43. > :59:47.Scotland faces additional challenges, you have been speaking
:59:47. > :59:53.about the weather, for instance. We have one of the lowest levels of
:59:53. > :59:57.support. Both the Palace of cat, up below one is direct payments and
:59:57. > :00:01.pillar to is the general payment fund. We have a raw deal. The UK
:00:01. > :00:05.Government has not negotiated a good deal for Scotland. If Alex,
:00:05. > :00:10.moving on to the practical impact for farmers, what NFU are telling
:00:10. > :00:15.us about the large number of an harvested crops, the ground is to
:00:15. > :00:17.read for farmers to get the winter or over winter crops in and not
:00:17. > :00:21.knowing what is going to happen in sprinting, how serious is the
:00:21. > :00:25.problem? Agriculture is one of these
:00:25. > :00:29.businesses that will always be exposed to the weather. The problem
:00:29. > :00:33.is very serious and their crops that are on harvested. The ground
:00:33. > :00:37.is wet and difficult to work on, particularly better still potatoes
:00:37. > :00:41.to be lifted. The way to deal with that as far as the Government is
:00:41. > :00:45.concerned is to ensure that they do their bit correctly and ensure that
:00:45. > :00:48.support payments are paid in a timely way and we do not get the
:00:48. > :00:52.disgraceful position we have had in previous years were some farmers
:00:52. > :00:57.are left without their payments at almost with no knowledge as to when
:00:57. > :01:00.they will come. The Government have proved they can do this without --
:01:00. > :01:04.can do this effectively. Let's ensure there are no mistakes.
:01:04. > :01:11.Richard, what is the Government's response at this stage? What would
:01:12. > :01:16.be appropriate? And staggered by Alex Johnson's comments, given that
:01:16. > :01:23.Scotland has the best records in the whole of the UK given that we
:01:23. > :01:26.have -- when it comes to payments from the EU on our farms. I am
:01:26. > :01:30.having regular discussions with farming representatives just now
:01:30. > :01:32.about the impact of the weather and again you report referred to how
:01:33. > :01:35.the National Farmers' Union in Scotland carried out their own
:01:35. > :01:39.survey and have promised to bring their resolve to us so we can
:01:39. > :01:43.discuss that. There is a chance that the lack of supply in some
:01:43. > :01:48.sectors may lead to a rise in prices. Old boy that will mitigate
:01:48. > :01:53.some of the financial impact. -- hopefully that will mitigate
:01:53. > :02:00.financial impact. Richard, would this also lead to a rise in prices
:02:00. > :02:04.for consumers? Of course, if there is a lack of supply of some
:02:04. > :02:08.products, vegetables or from the arable sector, that will impact on
:02:08. > :02:12.prices. That is not only a Scottish situation but throughout the whole
:02:12. > :02:15.of Europe and the rest of the world. Many countries are suffering from
:02:15. > :02:21.drought which is leading to an increase in prices that is hitting
:02:21. > :02:23.the poor. It is a very difficult issue and that is why negotiations
:02:23. > :02:27.over the Common Agriculture Policy are so important. That is about
:02:27. > :02:35.support for food production in Europe in the years ahead. We must
:02:35. > :02:39.make sure this support is there. This is part of a much bigger
:02:39. > :02:43.debate. Alex, we hear repeatedly from farmers that the debt problem
:02:43. > :02:47.is that when they go to banks and say that we're not getting returns
:02:47. > :02:53.expected this year because of the weather conditions, for Light
:02:53. > :02:56.Harvest, revenues jingling then, we need to extra money to tide us over
:02:56. > :03:01.and the banks are reluctant to give this. How can this be turned
:03:01. > :03:05.around? Is that the experience you hear? Yes, I hear that very often.
:03:05. > :03:08.It is essential that we are sure that the banks are aware that there
:03:08. > :03:12.is an expectation that they will insure that farming is allowed to
:03:12. > :03:14.continue from one year to the next. Farming is a business where
:03:14. > :03:18.everyone expects they have difficult years from one reason or
:03:18. > :03:21.another and weather is the biggest cause of that. But you must be
:03:21. > :03:23.prepared to watch from one year through to the next as the banks
:03:23. > :03:30.must be prepared to work with their customers.
:03:30. > :03:32.Thank you both very much indeed for that. Richard, before we let you go,
:03:32. > :03:35.this week further Government they got their college funding figures
:03:35. > :03:41.wrong, the First Minister must apologise. The Education Secretary
:03:41. > :03:46.must apologise. Headlines say the Education Secretary is a bully.
:03:46. > :03:49.This is not a good week for you. It is always challenging been in
:03:49. > :03:56.Government, particularly he current time with these budget cuts through
:03:56. > :03:58.Westminster. In terms of Mike Russell, who is Education Secretary,
:03:58. > :04:03.might wake up every day with a massive challenge to deliver the
:04:03. > :04:08.best possible future for Scotland's young people. We have record
:04:08. > :04:11.numbers of people attending further and higher education. I am
:04:11. > :04:15.surprised that you any cast doubt over his commitment to education.
:04:15. > :04:18.Mike Russell is committed to free education and is partially
:04:18. > :04:24.responsible for making sure that the people in Scotland do not have
:04:24. > :04:27.to pay for education. Thank you very much indeed.
:04:27. > :04:34.Coming up to the news, how to redefine what it means to live in
:04:34. > :04:38.poverty in Scotland? Over to the Newsham.
:04:38. > :04:43.-- over to the news room. The Israeli military attacks on
:04:43. > :04:46.Gaza have now claimed more than 50 lives according to health officials.
:04:46. > :04:51.Overnight, an air strike on the home of a senior Hamas commander is
:04:51. > :04:55.reported to have killed two young children living nearby., has
:04:55. > :05:01.renewed its missile attacks into his Royal this morning. Rockets
:05:01. > :05:07.were fired at places like Tel-Aviv. Attacks on Israel have been so far
:05:07. > :05:15.claimed three lives. There have been brief moments of
:05:15. > :05:23.carnage here. And they never last for long. -- brief moments of Caen.
:05:23. > :05:27.This morning in overnight, Israel once again pending Gaza with tanks.
:05:27. > :05:31.Among the building's character, this one and another where local
:05:31. > :05:36.and foreign journalists are based. Several were wounded. One lost a
:05:36. > :05:42.leg. Israel said they were aiming at a mass communication equipment.
:05:42. > :05:47.The number of injured and dead across Gaza is mounting. Emergency
:05:47. > :05:51.services are at full strength. Hospitals, too, are struggling to
:05:51. > :05:55.cope. As you will again ramped up its
:05:55. > :06:00.operation last night. Not only were attacks coming in from the air, but
:06:00. > :06:06.also from the sea. Israeli warships pending northern desert with
:06:06. > :06:10.artillery rounds. The -- pending in northern and gas at.
:06:10. > :06:14.In Israeli cities, people are scrambling to reach bomb shelters.
:06:14. > :06:18.This was after an eight-hour break which led some to hope for a
:06:18. > :06:26.ceasefire. Rocket fire resumed. The damage inflicted is not on the same
:06:26. > :06:36.scale, but on both side, civilians are suffering. Back in Gaza, Israel
:06:36. > :06:38.are showing their military strength. There is no end in sight.
:06:38. > :06:43.That is the Secretary Vince Cable has said more must be done to
:06:43. > :06:47.tackle companies who are legally able to avoid their corporation tax
:06:47. > :06:50.liabilities here in the UK. Speaking on Andrew Marshall this
:06:50. > :06:54.morning, Mr Cable said that their practices were unfair to British
:06:54. > :06:58.businesses. Well they are here if they make profits then they should
:06:59. > :07:03.pay tax on it. There is nothing more galling to small or medium-
:07:03. > :07:06.sized companies that they take to their tax to the British Government
:07:06. > :07:11.that we have found people dodging. There are ways to deal with this.
:07:11. > :07:15.Her own tax authorities must be tough on royalty payments. This is
:07:15. > :07:25.where the subterfuge comes in. The big question is whether you can get
:07:25. > :07:27.
:07:27. > :07:32.The operator at A-Level crossing in Egypt has been arrested. Reports
:07:32. > :07:34.say that the man left the barriers are open and was asleep. Distraught
:07:34. > :07:38.families and angry demonstrators have prevented members of the
:07:38. > :07:42.Egyptian Government from visiting the site.
:07:42. > :07:46.The British car maker, Jaguar and Land Rover, has had the go-ahead
:07:47. > :07:52.for his first manufacturing site in China. Sales are up 80% so far this
:07:52. > :07:57.year. The project, based North of Shanghai, will be in partnership
:07:57. > :08:04.with the Chinese car maker. The two companies will assemble models
:08:04. > :08:07.tailored specifically for the Chinese market.
:08:07. > :08:11.Good afternoon. Scottish Labour are calling for a
:08:11. > :08:13.review of Holyrood's parliamentary procedures. This comes after the
:08:13. > :08:19.First Minister apologised to the chamber for using incorrect figures
:08:19. > :08:22.on college funding. Labour's Paul Martin wants a code of conduct,
:08:22. > :08:24.which he says would compel ministers to be accurate. The
:08:24. > :08:31.Presiding Officer has repeatedly told MSPs she's not responsible for
:08:32. > :08:34.the veracity of statements. The remains of what's believed to
:08:34. > :08:37.be one of Scotland's earliest homes have been found during building
:08:37. > :08:41.work for the new Forth crossing. This artist's impression shows how
:08:42. > :08:48.the site in South Queensferry could have looked. It dates from 10,000
:08:48. > :08:51.years ago, when settlers came to Scotland after the last ice age.
:08:51. > :08:55.Jason Kenny has withdrawn from the sprint competition at the Track
:08:55. > :09:02.World Cup in Glasgow. The Olympic champion crashed in the Keirin last
:09:02. > :09:06.night, hitting the track at 75 kilometres an hour. His coach said
:09:06. > :09:13.he's feeling very sore. Philip Hindes is now Britain's sole
:09:13. > :09:20.representative in today's Now let's take a look at the
:09:20. > :09:25.weather. Here's Judith. And a lot of fine weather this
:09:25. > :09:30.afternoon. Make the most of it. Wet and windy conditions coming tonight
:09:30. > :09:35.and tomorrow. Decent sunshine across the central, southern and
:09:35. > :09:42.eastern Scotland. We will continue to see some showers across North
:09:42. > :09:50.Argyll. Cable becomes you as the day progresses. They will turn this
:09:50. > :09:53.no over higher ground. Breezier That's it for the moment. I'll now
:09:53. > :09:56.hand you back to Isabel. How do we know if a child is poor?
:09:56. > :09:59.At the moment, statisticians measure it by household income, but
:09:59. > :10:02.the UK government says this doesn't give the whole picture and wants
:10:02. > :10:05.the focus to shift towards other factors, such as how many parents
:10:05. > :10:08.are living in the home and educational success. So is it
:10:08. > :10:18.useful to redefine how we measure poverty or is it, as critics claim,
:10:18. > :10:20.
:10:20. > :10:25.a distraction? This snakes and ladders board is
:10:25. > :10:29.just a game. It shows how easy it can be to slide into poverty.
:10:29. > :10:34.could be in a job and made redundant. Your money could run out.
:10:34. > :10:38.You might not find another job. Having a low-paid job could see you
:10:38. > :10:42.slide right back down to square one when it comes to the poverty game,
:10:42. > :10:46.but how should policy makers measure how well off we are? At the
:10:46. > :10:55.moment, poverty is just some household income. Those earning
:10:55. > :11:00.less than 60% of the median income of �416 a week. By that measure, up
:11:00. > :11:05.170,000 children are living in poverty in Scotland's. 17%. But the
:11:05. > :11:10.UK Government says this definition is too narrow. I believe that
:11:10. > :11:15.understanding the nature of family life, the nature of your debt, are
:11:15. > :11:18.you actually in a family that there is serious addictions and?
:11:18. > :11:24.Understanding does give you a much better picture of whether that
:11:24. > :11:28.child is likely to be living in poverty. Both Westminster and
:11:28. > :11:31.Holyrood signed a commitment to eradicate child poverty by Twenty20.
:11:31. > :11:36.Charity see what to see them achieve this are sceptical about
:11:36. > :11:41.the UK government's Milan Mandaric call for change. We're seeing a
:11:41. > :11:45.real risk of child poverty rising over the next few years as a direct
:11:45. > :11:49.result of the current Government's policies and decisions. The worry
:11:49. > :11:53.is, they have been distracted from review their policies by reviewing
:11:53. > :11:59.the way they measure child poverty. But some social researchers welcome
:11:59. > :12:04.the debate, saying income is just one part of the story. You may have
:12:04. > :12:08.parents with poor health, parents out of work, peril what -- parents
:12:08. > :12:11.with poor qualifications. These other factors which are having a
:12:11. > :12:16.significant impact on the sorts of pathways that children take through
:12:16. > :12:21.their lives. Oxfam Scotland is also looking beyond money when it comes
:12:21. > :12:25.to measuring quality in life. It's humankind index surveyed more than
:12:25. > :12:29.3,000 people to find out what matters most to them. We need to
:12:29. > :12:33.think about the context in which people pursue their lives and great
:12:33. > :12:36.well-being for its other point At the top of that his health and
:12:36. > :12:41.housing and that goes right down to things like having enough skills
:12:41. > :12:44.and education to participate, having good transport. For those
:12:44. > :12:50.whose job it is to analyse the figures, in, still the most
:12:50. > :12:52.reliable tool. You change the measure, you haven't got
:12:52. > :12:55.consistency of retirement to cart track are well the Government is
:12:55. > :13:01.performing. The current measure does a very good job of capturing
:13:01. > :13:05.the core of what it means to be in poverty. This woman says poverty is
:13:05. > :13:10.a reality for her and it is what is done about it rather than how it is
:13:10. > :13:15.measured that what it that matters. There's too much scapegoating from
:13:15. > :13:20.the Government. They tend to say that it is our own fault, that we
:13:20. > :13:24.infected it. So why is measuring poverty important? It feeds into
:13:24. > :13:28.Government policy and how it helps people living in poverty to cope
:13:28. > :13:31.with whatever life throws at them. Joining me today is Judith
:13:31. > :13:33.Robertson, Head of Oxfam Scotland. Scotland's Commissioner for
:13:33. > :13:43.Children and Young People, Tam Baillie, and Professor Ailsa McKay,
:13:43. > :13:48.
:13:48. > :13:53.who is a Professor of Economics at Whatever way he looked at it,
:13:53. > :13:58.poverty is about lack of money, lack of income. We have measured
:13:58. > :14:02.that saying this way for many years. We're not the only country to
:14:02. > :14:07.measure it that way. You are able to compare it yourself not only
:14:07. > :14:10.over a period of time, but also you are able to compare how these UK
:14:10. > :14:14.and Scotland figures in the European and world setting. It is
:14:14. > :14:19.not perfect and we know it is not only about income, as has been
:14:19. > :14:24.indicated. He must keep the focus on income and in fact we are off-
:14:24. > :14:29.target to eradicate child poverty for 2020 and two medal round and to
:14:29. > :14:33.play around with that the measures at this point in time could be at -
:14:33. > :14:39.- to be read as a cynical move to move this target without affecting
:14:40. > :14:43.the lives of the children. You feel strong that the existing
:14:43. > :14:47.mechanisms must be maintained? Whatever other assistance you make?
:14:47. > :14:53.The other measures are actually a good indication of where we should
:14:53. > :14:58.be targeting air time and energy, we know that the consequences of
:14:58. > :15:06.poverty are things like low attainment, things like higher
:15:06. > :15:10.instances of children and adults and mental well-being. We must take
:15:10. > :15:14.those into account in terms of measures putting into -- measures
:15:14. > :15:18.going into place to eradicate tell poverty. This is about how much
:15:18. > :15:22.money is going into your household. What this means to your child is
:15:23. > :15:26.that they are aware of the fact that they do not have the sources
:15:26. > :15:32.for engagement in sports activities. It might be the child who does not
:15:32. > :15:37.have a holiday. They know that they are shopping in the cheaper shops
:15:37. > :15:44.for the clothing. We pick up on the stresses and strains on the parents.
:15:44. > :15:50.The stress of not being able to pay bills, the stress of the mental
:15:50. > :15:53.well-being of their parents or carers, the stresses of, here we
:15:53. > :15:58.are leading up to Christmas. Many families and parents will be
:15:58. > :16:03.dreading the Christmas coming up. And in fact, all we know now, the
:16:03. > :16:07.research on stress on the household, stress on parents affect the child.
:16:07. > :16:12.Judith, the Institute for Fiscal Studies predicts 800,000 children
:16:12. > :16:17.will be picked into poverty as a direct result of the Westminster
:16:17. > :16:20.Government's welfare reform. There is an obvious cause and effect here.
:16:20. > :16:26.What is your attitude on whether or not the existing measures should be
:16:26. > :16:32.changed? I would agree with ham that the measures which looks at
:16:32. > :16:38.income is important, it gives you an indication of a clear -- it
:16:38. > :16:43.gives a clear indication on how families are doing. From her
:16:43. > :16:46.perspective, we like to look at what are the causes of poverty?
:16:46. > :16:52.Changes to welfare reform will push more families and young people into
:16:52. > :16:56.poverty. That is clear. We're in this situation where a large
:16:56. > :17:00.sectors of society are not actually getting the opportunity, the
:17:00. > :17:04.economy has systematically field full -- economy has failed to
:17:04. > :17:09.provide opportunities for families to get out of poverty. The Turkey
:17:09. > :17:15.Moody's in Scotland were third and 4th generations are not actually
:17:15. > :17:20.able to gain employment. -- there are situations in Scotland. 60% of
:17:20. > :17:25.those living in poverty in Britain, their families are in work. Welfare
:17:25. > :17:28.reform is a crucial factor, but the index was intended, we did that
:17:28. > :17:34.analysis based on people's own perspectives on what prosperity
:17:34. > :17:37.would be like. To get a sense to be able to say to Government there are
:17:37. > :17:42.many issues causing poverty and contributing to people's prosperity
:17:42. > :17:47.or lack of prosperity. One of our goals is that we actually do
:17:47. > :17:52.poverty proof policy. What difference will this policy make to
:17:52. > :17:56.people in poverty? The Institute for Fiscal Studies say that welfare
:17:56. > :18:00.reform will pursue 800,000 people, that was borne out in communities.
:18:01. > :18:04.That is something we must seriously addressed if we are going to seek a
:18:04. > :18:11.fairer society. What do you think economic Glee is the effect of
:18:11. > :18:15.generally avoiding income standards on assessments of poverty? I agree
:18:15. > :18:19.with what has been said by both panellists, income measures are
:18:19. > :18:23.crucial and for the purpose of consistency we must use income
:18:23. > :18:29.measures and national comparisons. Like GDP figures, they are not
:18:29. > :18:33.wrong, just badly used. They are wrongly used. We constantly look at
:18:33. > :18:37.average incomes and average incomes are on the up. They are rising. If
:18:37. > :18:43.you look at a typical income, typical in comes are stagnating or
:18:43. > :18:48.falling. It must be a dead relative income. It is not just about income
:18:49. > :18:52.measures but inequalities about -- inequalities across Scotland.
:18:52. > :18:55.People who are aware that they live in the poorest councils and scholar,
:18:55. > :19:00.he must look at that and her income are distributed across households
:19:00. > :19:04.in Scotland rather than just at that income measures. One very
:19:04. > :19:06.practical thing I wanted to raise before we don't have to time, we're
:19:06. > :19:10.discussing education funding in tertiary education funding, how
:19:10. > :19:14.much is going to universities and colleges, the fact is, when you
:19:14. > :19:18.look at the big returns, if you have an intervention programme and
:19:18. > :19:22.turning around to tell's life chances, that is investing at the
:19:22. > :19:25.nursery stage. Is that an area that has been overlooked? I absolutely,
:19:25. > :19:29.one of the biggest causes of poverty in families is the high
:19:29. > :19:34.cost of childcare which is prohibited, and prevent people
:19:34. > :19:40.accessing employment. He end up spending a high proportion of your
:19:40. > :19:44.income. Sometimes prohibitively high, so they do not take any job
:19:44. > :19:49.opportunity. We have an opportunity in Scotland's not only to improve
:19:49. > :19:52.her early years, not only to ensure we can provide quality childcare,
:19:52. > :19:57.and better Government plans for some extension to that, I believe
:19:57. > :20:01.it should go further, but it could also help free up families to
:20:01. > :20:04.enable them to seek employment to better their overall position. That
:20:04. > :20:14.is particularly important given what has been said about the
:20:14. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:20.position of women. It will affect Investing in children is like
:20:20. > :20:25.stocking a sports team without teaching them how to play the game.
:20:25. > :20:29.If you ignore gender inequalities and invest in children, your
:20:29. > :20:33.investment will not have the returns you expect. Women are
:20:33. > :20:36.primarily responsible for the care of children. As we look at
:20:36. > :20:43.employment figures, since the start of the recession, women's
:20:43. > :20:49.employment has doubled from 4% to 8%. Women are losing a job steelier
:20:49. > :20:54.Grosskopf and's communities. If they're losing in comes, our
:20:54. > :20:57.children are losing in comes. I just wanted to check with you,
:20:57. > :21:03.what you think would be Inverkeithing is that should be
:21:03. > :21:08.done my to alleviate poverty? Practical, key responses?
:21:08. > :21:12.We need to address low wages, put resources into poor communities and
:21:12. > :21:16.ensure that those resources are going to women and into the poorest
:21:16. > :21:21.families. In Scotland, we would benefit from having a poverty
:21:21. > :21:26.Commissioner, someone whose job it is to assess policy and say, well
:21:26. > :21:31.as improve things for people or make it worse? That perspective
:21:31. > :21:36.will actually Oriented policy towards actually addressing policy.
:21:36. > :21:39.For final word. Poverty affects all levels of society. We have
:21:39. > :21:43.international evidence that tells us that has an impact on mental
:21:43. > :21:47.well-being on all strata of society and we have to learn lessons to
:21:47. > :21:51.make sure that we are living in a more equal society. It will benefit
:21:51. > :21:54.everybody. Now in a moment, we'll be
:21:54. > :22:04.discussing the big events coming up this week at Holyrood, but first,
:22:04. > :22:08.
:22:08. > :22:12.let's take a look back at the Week The committee of MSPs voted
:22:12. > :22:16.unanimously in favour of the section 30 order which will enable
:22:16. > :22:23.the Hollywood to hold a referendum on Scottish independence. --
:22:23. > :22:27.Holyrood. It was a watershed moment in Scotland's home rule journey.
:22:27. > :22:30.Captain Walter Barry was shot dead in Afghanistan in an insider at
:22:30. > :22:35.tack, bringing the total of British service personnel killed by their
:22:35. > :22:39.Afghan colleagues this year to 12. The number of Scots looking for
:22:39. > :22:44.work went up by 4,000. The amount looking for employment across the
:22:44. > :22:47.rest of the UK fell. Hospitals in south-east England's -
:22:47. > :22:51.- Scotland said they were facing a shortage of trainee paediatric
:22:51. > :22:56.doctors. NHS boards say they are trying to find the best cure for
:22:56. > :22:59.the problem. And policy bear has managed to
:22:59. > :23:08.change the lives of disadvantage children are in Scotland this year
:23:08. > :23:12.by raising a provisional total of the 889,876 pts.
:23:12. > :23:18.Now it's that time of the day, where we take a moment to analyse
:23:18. > :23:21.the top stories. And joining me this week is the
:23:21. > :23:31.Sunday Times journalist, Gillian Bowditch. And in our Dundee Studio,
:23:31. > :23:34.
:23:34. > :23:41.the Scottish Political Editor of Let's start with the papers this
:23:41. > :23:44.morning. More problems for the Education Secretary. Michael
:23:44. > :23:48.Russell under tense meeting over college waiting list. This is
:23:48. > :23:52.another story in the Sunday Herald. How do you think this is going to
:23:52. > :23:56.play out? There are some inevitable tensions
:23:56. > :24:00.when you have a policy whereby you want to widen access and increase
:24:00. > :24:03.the number of young people going to colleges, and that is really good
:24:03. > :24:08.thing. We know that will help the poverty situation you have been
:24:08. > :24:11.talking about. But you also have this policy that the Government is
:24:11. > :24:16.pursuing a which means that they're going to pay for all the tuition
:24:16. > :24:19.fees. Inevitably, at a time of economic crisis, they're going to
:24:20. > :24:23.be -- there are going to be squeezes on budgets and there will
:24:23. > :24:28.be less money around and the colleges are having to make do with
:24:28. > :24:32.much less and some are saying that that they are the poor relations of
:24:32. > :24:34.the universities. We have some world-class education
:24:34. > :24:39.establishments and Scotland. The bottom line has to be that we
:24:39. > :24:47.cannot let these establishments slip and going to decline. It is a
:24:47. > :24:52.global market place. The story in her old styles as today that their
:24:52. > :24:56.21,000 young people in Scotland waiting for places in colleges.
:24:56. > :24:59.That is 21,000 lives on hold, 21,000 people the need these
:24:59. > :25:03.qualifications to get jobs. The Government needs a solution for
:25:04. > :25:08.this. At the heart is the Government policies education
:25:08. > :25:11.policy is this paradox, that there is not this money to do what needs
:25:12. > :25:14.to be done. There is obviously this be
:25:14. > :25:17.substantial argument here at the moment. We're hearing that the Lib
:25:17. > :25:21.Dems want another vote on college funding and want the education
:25:21. > :25:26.committee to look at the strategic bombing of colleges. They say there
:25:26. > :25:30.must be much more clarity before the Budget. The Labour education
:25:30. > :25:35.spokesman says that is a good idea. What are the substantial issues
:25:35. > :25:40.facing the Government? The opposition parties are entitled
:25:40. > :25:43.to demand another bite at this cheery. They were cheated at that,
:25:43. > :25:50.especially at first Minister's Questions last week, when Alexander
:25:51. > :25:58.-- Alex Salmond put up to say black to white. Crowed the whole issue of
:25:58. > :26:02.college funding, and the squeeze is only just beginning to bite. It is
:26:02. > :26:05.going to get an awful lot worse than it already is. But you for
:26:05. > :26:10.money is the thing that will count more for more than anything else. I
:26:10. > :26:14.have done a lot of research on this coming into this programme today. I
:26:14. > :26:19.couldn't find a college that isn't offering a course on hairdressing
:26:19. > :26:24.and beauty therapy. You would have to think that Scotland would have
:26:24. > :26:27.to be an essentially oddly nation if we needed that many of them!
:26:27. > :26:30.Whatever the course is that you structure to get people have to the
:26:30. > :26:34.door, some people from certain areas to not have the confidence to
:26:34. > :26:38.say they can commit two years of their life to a college course. You
:26:38. > :26:42.get them over the door, you get them engaged, then you move up a
:26:42. > :26:45.gear. That's right. More needs to be done
:26:45. > :26:49.law down. We need to be getting young people who are confident, who
:26:49. > :26:54.can going to situations and speak their voice, and to feel that they
:26:54. > :26:58.can go to college and learn. One thing that collars us is instil
:26:58. > :27:02.confidence. But actually, the schools should be instilling
:27:02. > :27:06.confidence. The people going into colleges should be ready for a
:27:06. > :27:10.college education. The problem is that there is of his the 21,002
:27:10. > :27:15.cannot get it. If we look at the pure politics of
:27:15. > :27:18.all of this and all the sound and fury, how damaging has this been
:27:19. > :27:25.four were Michael Russell and for the Government?
:27:25. > :27:29.Last Thursday was dreadful. It was appalling. We're going to see this
:27:29. > :27:34.as an increasing part of the narrative for the anti-
:27:34. > :27:37.independence parties. BS and he has depended not on people who are keen
:27:37. > :27:42.on independence, but people who look to them as being a competent
:27:42. > :27:45.Government. On Thursday, the wheels came off completely. For four cars,
:27:45. > :27:51.the position of the Scottish Government was they did not know
:27:51. > :27:54.what was happening to college funding. That is unacceptable. The
:27:54. > :27:59.anti- independence parties will turn to that again and again to
:27:59. > :28:09.conflate the idea that independence is the SNP and the SNP is not up to
:28:09. > :28:10.
:28:10. > :28:13.If the Government can say that this was a mistake made a good fake and
:28:13. > :28:18.the figures had been submitted to the education committee, we would
:28:18. > :28:21.not have had a chapter and verse on writing on that. This will be more
:28:21. > :28:26.interesting if there are questions on the tetramer and disposition,
:28:26. > :28:32.the way he conducts himself on -- as the Education Secretary. He's
:28:32. > :28:35.the best time and again with the SNP Government, they have talented
:28:35. > :28:38.individuals, in this case the head of education as the head of Stoke
:28:38. > :28:48.College, but we have seen public figures named by senior ministers,
:28:48. > :28:49.
:28:49. > :28:52.by Alexander himself,, the principal off Glasgow Uni. People
:28:52. > :28:55.are feeling that if they disagree with the Government they will be
:28:55. > :28:59.singled out. We need their independent experts to be able to
:28:59. > :29:04.tell us what the situation is. If they do not feel they can speak out
:29:04. > :29:11.or if they do speak out they will be in some way finger, that is a
:29:11. > :29:19.real problem. Andy, is this robust interaction some just politics or
:29:19. > :29:24.something more? The key quote which has not been used is that he said,
:29:24. > :29:29.I would sack you if I could. He acknowledged in that quote that he
:29:29. > :29:34.could not sack him. By that I mean the chair of Stow College. If he
:29:34. > :29:38.could not sack him, what is the issue? He could have been forced to
:29:38. > :29:43.resign. I have not planning new powers to allow them to do that?
:29:43. > :29:49.Indeed, but not yet. Richard Stow College what before that happened.
:29:49. > :29:56.Argue reassured by that? That the powers are not in their? Given what
:29:56. > :30:00.has happened this week? And the row that has come up. I think it might
:30:00. > :30:05.be a bit more difficult, even given the SNP's majority, to get that
:30:05. > :30:12.through. There is demand for a rethink. It is painful to say but
:30:12. > :30:15.the truth is that when the SNP were a minority Government, Fiona Hyslop
:30:15. > :30:22.as Education Secretary was moved to one side and replaced by Mike
:30:22. > :30:27.Russell for a far smaller road in this, the threat of a parliamentary
:30:27. > :30:28.lack of confidence in her. There has been a certain type of
:30:28. > :30:33.political arrogance that has gone with this.
:30:33. > :30:39.I am very sorry, we are out of time. Schedule both very much indeed for