:00:40. > :00:44.Good morning. Welcome to the programme. The Government announced
:00:44. > :00:50.its tough new tests for meat products. Is it a case of shutting
:00:50. > :00:53.the stable door after the horse has bolted? We will ask the Environment
:00:53. > :00:57.Secretary and his Labour shadow and bring you the latest on the
:00:57. > :01:01.horsemeat scandal. After Christine's disgrace, the
:01:01. > :01:06.coalition partners are in a political fight to the death over
:01:06. > :01:15.his vacant seat in Eastleigh. We will ask to Energy Secretary if it
:01:15. > :01:21.is a by-election for his party. Can the NHS really be described as
:01:21. > :01:24.the envy of the world? And in Scotland, we will be
:01:24. > :01:34.speaking to Michael Moorer and Nicola Sturgeon about their reports
:01:34. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :32:31.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1856 seconds
:32:31. > :32:41.tomorrow. Will be deliver the We are having to import a lot more
:32:41. > :32:41.
:32:41. > :40:55.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1856 seconds
:40:55. > :41:03.The principle of getting high quality health care, in spite of an
:41:03. > :41:08.ability to pay. They NHS has only one way. Is there only one way, is
:41:08. > :41:15.any way you can change the NHS? the evidence shows that people want
:41:15. > :41:19.to go to their hospital closest to them. Most people actually want
:41:19. > :41:24.their local hospital to be as good as it can be and they want to
:41:24. > :41:29.travel relatively small distances. What we have to focus on is getting
:41:29. > :41:33.the number of elderly patients out of our hospitals, because they are
:41:33. > :41:39.blocking the acute care beds. We have this culture now that has
:41:39. > :41:43.developed, that people go to hospital to die have the time. 50 %
:41:43. > :41:47.of people die in hospital. A lot of them do not need to be in hospital
:41:47. > :41:53.at that point, they could be at home, are they could be in a home,
:41:53. > :41:58.if we had better care from social care. Social care is broken down,
:41:58. > :42:03.family structures have broken down, no one wants to care for her their
:42:03. > :42:07.grandparents. People have multiple illnesses that are essentially
:42:07. > :42:15.incurable, they need tender loving care and that is something that we
:42:15. > :42:25.cannot prescribe. You are watching the Sunday
:42:25. > :42:30.politics. Good morning. Welcome to Sunday
:42:30. > :42:34.Politics Scotland. Coming up - speed reading glasses at the ready,
:42:34. > :42:40.tomorrow, Westminster will come out fighting with the launch of the
:42:40. > :42:50.report about Scotland's role in the UK. Holyrood are preparing a
:42:50. > :42:51.
:42:51. > :42:57.counter-punch. They will recommend keeping the pen serving.
:42:57. > :43:04.And we hear about the impact of welfare reform changes. My GP says
:43:04. > :43:08.that he's not fit to work. Because I can walk I cannot get employment
:43:08. > :43:12.support. And as to displays and vending
:43:12. > :43:19.machines are banned, prepare for even more anti-smoking measures
:43:19. > :43:23.coming in soon. Having two governments looking
:43:23. > :43:28.after affairs offers the best of both worlds, according to the Prime
:43:28. > :43:32.Minister. David Cameron is writing today in defence of the Union, head
:43:32. > :43:40.of his government releasing a report about Scotland's role in the
:43:40. > :43:45.UK. The Scottish government's Fiscal Commission also publish a
:43:45. > :43:49.report tomorrow. It will recommend that they keep the sterling
:43:49. > :43:54.immediately post-independence. It was all smiles and handshakes on
:43:54. > :43:58.the day that Alex Salmond and David Cameron signed their Edinburgh
:43:58. > :44:02.Agreement on the independence referendum. But be in no doubt.
:44:02. > :44:08.These two men have a fundamental disagreement about what the outcome
:44:08. > :44:12.of the vote should be. It is up to Alex Salmond to advance cutting
:44:13. > :44:16.edge arguments for Scotland to become an independent country. He
:44:16. > :44:23.will give us the detailed workings of an independent Scotland this
:44:23. > :44:27.autumn. But the transition to independence, he says, could be
:44:27. > :44:31.complete within 18 months of a Yes vote.
:44:31. > :44:37.Let us look at their Internationale examples. 30 countries had been
:44:37. > :44:40.through the process that we are about to go through. The average
:44:40. > :44:44.timescale from the referendum to independence is 15 months. With all
:44:44. > :44:48.these other countries can do it, then why not Scotland? These are
:44:48. > :44:53.being questioned by the man from the union that represents senior
:44:53. > :44:58.civil servants. We really do not see how that will be done in this
:44:58. > :45:07.16 month period. We may be wrong, it maybe that the two governments
:45:07. > :45:10.simply to call boxes and each say, Westminster says yes to everything,
:45:11. > :45:15.or Holyrood concedes everything. We will wait to see, but we think it
:45:15. > :45:21.will be more difficult than is perhaps currently perceived. Today,
:45:21. > :45:24.the Prime Minister has weighed in. He said, those arguing for
:45:24. > :45:29.independence are already preparing their separation transition plan is
:45:29. > :45:32.if they have it in the back. To me, that is wrong, it is like fast-
:45:32. > :45:38.forwarding to the closing credits before you have been allowed to see
:45:38. > :45:42.the movie. Michael Moore has his role to play.
:45:42. > :45:47.It is his job to find a truckload of arguments for Scotland to stay
:45:47. > :45:53.in the Union. He will deliver the first in a series of papers on that
:45:54. > :45:57.topic tomorrow. We must make the big issues and bring clarity to the
:45:57. > :46:00.process, but the big issues are what matter to people across the
:46:00. > :46:04.country and that is what we will focus on.
:46:04. > :46:09.There is another report out tomorrow, from the chairman of the
:46:09. > :46:15.Scottish government's economic advisers. They are promising a
:46:15. > :46:18.well-engineered economic model for an independent Scotland. Both Alex
:46:18. > :46:24.Salmond and David Cameron have brought in the boffins to bolster
:46:24. > :46:28.their arguments over Scotland's future. The independence debate is
:46:28. > :46:33.entering in the face. I am joined by the Secretary of
:46:33. > :46:37.State for Scotland, the Liberal Democrat MP Michael Moore. We had
:46:37. > :46:41.been hearing that the UK government will be publishing this paper
:46:41. > :46:46.tomorrow. How will that persuade people to stay in the Union? What
:46:46. > :46:50.kind of arguments we beat applying? I think that the report is right to
:46:51. > :46:55.say that we move into a new phase. But the process behind us and
:46:55. > :46:59.getting to the big issues that affect people and matter. What we
:46:59. > :47:04.are essentially saying, the Prime Minister sets it out this morning,
:47:04. > :47:09.is that Scotland gets the best of both worlds as part of the United
:47:09. > :47:13.Kingdom. As Parliament, we are able to decide whether it is in
:47:13. > :47:19.Scotland's interests, about the things that are decided here in
:47:19. > :47:22.Scotland. But her national security, our place in the world, the
:47:22. > :47:27.strength and opportunities of their economy, we can do that at the UK
:47:27. > :47:31.level as well. There is a big positive case for Scotland's
:47:31. > :47:34.continuing to be part of the United Kingdom, we will start the process
:47:34. > :47:39.of laying out his arguments tomorrow. We hear these arguments
:47:39. > :47:45.quite often have. What's a stance of arguments will commit a moral
:47:45. > :47:51.that will persuade people? Their Parr Hall series of issues around
:47:51. > :47:56.the independence debate. -- Ferrara whole series of issues. Scottish
:47:56. > :48:00.business, Scottish jobs, around the world. What we are doing tomorrow
:48:00. > :48:06.is setting out our view of the cornerstone of all this. Setting
:48:06. > :48:09.out the detail of how devolution is good for Scotland. Showing how the
:48:09. > :48:16.parliament created in the last 14 years, the new powers given to it.
:48:16. > :48:20.We are unable to respond to the demands and wishes here in Scotland
:48:20. > :48:24.while still having the strength and security and opportunity of the
:48:24. > :48:31.whole of the United Kingdom. People are really hungry for facts. This
:48:31. > :48:38.sounds like some of the old arguments being we treaded. --
:48:38. > :48:43.retreated. Do you have any information to give to people?
:48:43. > :48:46.need to highlight the reality that if we become independent, that is
:48:46. > :48:56.devolution at an end. We will lose the advantages and flexibility that
:48:56. > :48:57.
:48:57. > :49:00.comes as part of the existing arrangement, and certainly we will
:49:00. > :49:10.be looking at what Scotland has as part of the UK and what would be at
:49:10. > :49:14.stake if we were to got along. -- go-it-alone. You talk about the
:49:14. > :49:22.dangers of what is at stake if we go-it-alone. It is often the
:49:22. > :49:28.negative arguments that better to get there are putting forward. --
:49:28. > :49:31.better together. I have just spent the last few minutes been
:49:31. > :49:36.relentlessly positive than talking about the good things that we can
:49:36. > :49:42.already do. We have great flexibility which means that we can
:49:42. > :49:47.decide here in Scotland what is taught in our schools, Scottish
:49:47. > :49:50.parliamentarians will decide that, not remote institutions like
:49:50. > :49:55.Westminster. But where it is appropriate use Westminster, with
:49:55. > :49:59.the banks, with trade to render world, that is a strong, positive
:49:59. > :50:03.case for staying in the UK. The positive side of this is there to
:50:03. > :50:09.be told, as the Prime Minister has done this morning, and we look
:50:09. > :50:14.forward to making much of that in the Munster come. The report, some
:50:14. > :50:17.will say, will be highlighting the negative impact on Scotland when it
:50:17. > :50:22.comes to the European Union, that Scotland would have a very weak
:50:22. > :50:27.negotiating position. We are setting out a reality check that
:50:27. > :50:30.shows Scotland's situation as a very important member of the
:50:31. > :50:35.European Union at the moment, and what we would be beating at stake,
:50:35. > :50:39.the need for us to negotiate our terms within the European Union,
:50:39. > :50:43.where the currency issue will be up for grabs, where the border
:50:43. > :50:46.controls will need to be resolved, we will need to work out what we
:50:46. > :50:52.will pay to other farmers and fishermen. That will go into a
:50:52. > :50:56.melting pot over which we have less control. But those issues we are
:50:56. > :51:00.bringing out euro are the kind of issues that people want answers on
:51:01. > :51:03.and it is in your power to find out those answers from the Commission,
:51:03. > :51:08.because the president of the commission said that it is only a
:51:08. > :51:11.member state that can ask those kind of questions. Kenny and the
:51:11. > :51:16.Scottish Government give the people of Scotland those definitive
:51:17. > :51:20.answers? Can you work together? have been clear about this. The
:51:20. > :51:26.Scotland becomes independent, it becomes a separate state and it has
:51:26. > :51:33.to apply for membership and started the terms and conditions. Frankly,
:51:33. > :51:38.we have not had a poor night's -- precise scenario. We have had a lot
:51:38. > :51:46.of speculation. Just answer the court., we will be setting out
:51:46. > :51:50.tomorrow are very clear terms, I review, backed up by legal experts,
:51:50. > :51:53.which show that Scotland will be needing to apply for that
:51:53. > :51:57.membership and will need to sort out its terms and conditions, which
:51:57. > :52:02.has been a long-held view. People need to study their arguments and
:52:02. > :52:05.make their own judgment. So you have a new legal expert, someone
:52:05. > :52:11.with the full weight and authority behind him, saying that Scotland
:52:11. > :52:14.will have to reapply to join the you? Is that a key point? The legal
:52:14. > :52:18.basis of the United Kingdom, the strength we will get from the party
:52:18. > :52:23.it, we will make sure that all of our key points are well source,
:52:23. > :52:28.well researched and scrutinised by independent experts, so that the
:52:28. > :52:32.case we make is as strong as possible. I think it is very strong
:52:32. > :52:38.and will really be in force our central message. Scotland gets a
:52:38. > :52:41.great deal by being part of the United Kingdom, the UK gets a great
:52:41. > :52:46.deal from being part of the in European Union. Why pick that its
:52:46. > :52:52.stake? If you have that evidence, why not approach the European
:52:52. > :52:57.Commission and say to them, give us a definitive answer about Scotland.
:52:57. > :53:02.For some reason, you were not doing that. When you scared of what the
:53:02. > :53:06.commission might say? What I have watched as the Scottish Government
:53:06. > :53:10.shuffling through a whole series of positions where they have said that
:53:10. > :53:15.they have the opposite -- legal advice, then said they did not.
:53:15. > :53:18.What we are setting out tomorrow is a very clear argument and report
:53:18. > :53:22.from the UK government, backed up independently, that will show that
:53:22. > :53:26.Scotland's place in the UK is the right place to be, is the strong
:53:26. > :53:30.place to be, and that therefore people can take confidence from
:53:30. > :53:40.arguments that we are making. have the Fiscal Commission report
:53:40. > :53:42.being published tomorrow. The recommendation is that Scotland
:53:43. > :53:46.should keep sterling post- independence. For the people of
:53:46. > :53:51.Scotland, could you give some guarantees that the Bank of England
:53:51. > :53:56.would recommend that Scotland perhaps could keep sterling post-
:53:56. > :54:00.independence? So that people have that kind of stability? I am
:54:00. > :54:03.fascinated to hear, and like you I have only seen what is in the
:54:03. > :54:07.newspapers today, that the recommendation is to keep the pound.
:54:08. > :54:11.We already have it is part of the United Kingdom. Why would we want
:54:11. > :54:16.to become independent just to keep the pound. It is a very strange
:54:16. > :54:22.argument indeed. It is in our interests, I agree with that, and
:54:22. > :54:25.that is why Scotland staying in the UK is the way forward. Scotland
:54:25. > :54:30.gets a much stronger and better deal as part of the UK than it
:54:30. > :54:38.would if it went to one. We have also had another report from the
:54:38. > :54:45.Scottish government, road map, -- Scotland's Future, which party do
:54:45. > :54:51.disagree with most? There is a long way to go before we have all the
:54:51. > :54:57.issues set out from the Scottish government's side. What we are
:54:57. > :55:00.setting out tomorrow will in-depth and in detail and so a lot of the
:55:00. > :55:06.questions that they had been unable to answer. We need to have a debate
:55:06. > :55:09.about the time scales that will be involved. We have had predictions
:55:09. > :55:13.about Independence Day but Scotland has not been asked to vote and has
:55:13. > :55:17.yet. We do not know when we will vote on independence. I'm confident
:55:17. > :55:23.that we will stay part of the UK. We need to get on to the serious
:55:23. > :55:28.points of substance. We have your report coming tomorrow, is this the
:55:28. > :55:32.start of the renegotiation? We have been clear from the outset that the
:55:32. > :55:38.negotiations are not appropriate and cannot take place. However,
:55:38. > :55:44.proper, sensible, reasoned argument about Scotland's place in the UK is
:55:44. > :55:48.essential. Our report will set the tone for that. Thank you. Coming up
:55:48. > :55:54.in a moment we have the Deputy First Minister, but first let us
:55:54. > :56:02.take a look at the time line that came out of Scotland's --
:56:02. > :56:06.Scotland's Future document, which came out last week.
:56:06. > :56:11.If it is a yes vote, and associations begin between Holyrood
:56:11. > :56:14.and Westminster, between Holyrood and the European Union, and between
:56:14. > :56:20.Holyrood and other international organisations. In the middle of
:56:20. > :56:24.which, we will have a UK general election and possibly a new
:56:24. > :56:28.Westminster and was sating partner. The Scottish Government also wants
:56:28. > :56:34.the Westminster to transfer the powers to allow Holyrood to
:56:34. > :56:42.legislate for a new Scottish state. The song needs to be done for 20th
:56:42. > :56:52.March 16. -- best song needs to be done. They will then be in the
:56:52. > :57:00.
:57:00. > :57:03.elections for the first parliament We are hearing that the UK
:57:03. > :57:07.Government have this coming out tomorrow and they have some
:57:07. > :57:12.authority. It is weighty evidence, saying Scotland would have to
:57:12. > :57:17.reapply to become a member of the European Union. It is not what do
:57:17. > :57:23.you want, is it? I look forward to reading the paper tomorrow. I had
:57:23. > :57:30.to laugh, listening to Michael Moore because the real uncertainty
:57:30. > :57:39.around Scotland being a member of the youth is David Cameron. We have
:57:39. > :57:43.been very clear that the terms of our continuing membership of the EU
:57:43. > :57:49.would need to be negotiated, but that would happen from within the
:57:49. > :57:52.EU. Scotland benefits a great deal from being within the EU. I think
:57:52. > :57:56.we would be better off independent and able to stand up for our
:57:56. > :58:00.national interest, but Europe benefits from having Scotland as a
:58:00. > :58:07.member state. We have offered to sit down with the UK Government to
:58:07. > :58:12.draw up that scenario and present it to the EU Commission. David
:58:12. > :58:17.Cameron does not want to do that. It seems to be a pretty unclear
:58:17. > :58:20.position actually, as in December you said it was your intention to
:58:20. > :58:26.negotiate the terms of an independent Scotland's continuing
:58:26. > :58:32.membership of the youth from within, and bent to on 7th February, two
:58:32. > :58:37.Labour's Ken Mackintosh, you expect Scotland's transition from member
:58:37. > :58:41.of the EU to be negotiated. So now you say you expect that. So you
:58:41. > :58:45.have changed that. My position has not changed. It is our intention
:58:45. > :58:50.and I fully expect that to be the case. Let me tell you in more
:58:50. > :58:54.detail why. This is an important legal point and it is a point that
:58:54. > :58:58.has been backed up by its experts. There is nothing in the European
:58:59. > :59:03.treaty that would allow a country, just because it exercised its
:59:03. > :59:07.Domecq -- democratic right to self- determination, to somehow put
:59:07. > :59:12.outside of the European Union. If you look at countries who want to
:59:12. > :59:16.lead the European Union, it is very complicated. And it is in
:59:16. > :59:20.everyone's interests, for Scotland's continuing membership of
:59:20. > :59:23.the European Union to be settled and that -- for that to be a
:59:23. > :59:29.process which happens from within. So that is not just our expectation
:59:29. > :59:31.but our intention and it meets the crucial test of common sense.
:59:31. > :59:34.mention your constitution expert. The UK Government have theirs and I
:59:34. > :59:39.was saying to Michael Moore about the joint submission to the
:59:39. > :59:42.European Commission, because you were rebuffed by the president of
:59:42. > :59:45.the European Commission. Have you written to the Secretary of State
:59:45. > :59:48.to ask for some kind of joint commission? Yes, I have made it
:59:48. > :59:53.very clear that Scottish Government is happy to do this. We disagree on
:59:53. > :59:56.what the outcome of the referendum should be but I think in the -- and
:59:56. > :00:01.the Electoral Commission make this point, that we have a duty to sit
:00:01. > :00:03.down and look at the prices that would follow a "yes" vote, and make
:00:03. > :00:08.sure we are providing as much information to the people of
:00:08. > :00:11.Scotland as possible. The European Commission say they will only look
:00:11. > :00:15.at a proposal coming from an existing member state. We have said
:00:15. > :00:19.we have nothing to fear from that. We are confident in the prices we
:00:19. > :00:23.believe would happen, so let's sit down and put that to the European
:00:23. > :00:27.Commission. Michael Moore could not explain a few moments ago why the
:00:27. > :00:31.UK Government is not able to do that, so I am happy to repeat the
:00:31. > :00:38.offer to him today that we sit down and do that and then let the
:00:38. > :00:42.European Commission look at that. Let's move on the way from the UK
:00:42. > :00:47.Government's paper tomorrow to your paper tomorrow, from the Fiscal
:00:47. > :00:51.Commission. It talks about leaving the union yet keeping the pound.
:00:51. > :00:55.But if we do that, you're taking your hands of the levers of
:00:55. > :01:00.influence, aren't you? If you keep the pound Stirling post
:01:00. > :01:04.independence? The report tomorrow will be from the Fiscal Commission,
:01:04. > :01:07.part of the First Minister's council of economic advisers. It is
:01:08. > :01:12.from independent experts, and I look forward to reading the full
:01:12. > :01:17.report. The Scottish Government will take it seriously. It would
:01:17. > :01:22.not only be in Scotland's interests to remain within Stirling but it
:01:22. > :01:26.would be within the interest of the rest of the UK, for example,
:01:26. > :01:31.because of the volley of our oil and gas and whisky experts --
:01:31. > :01:35.exports. Of course, if we are independent, what we would have
:01:35. > :01:38.that we do not have now are the fiscal levers, the power over tax,
:01:38. > :01:42.the Palace you need to get the economy going and to create jobs
:01:42. > :01:46.and that is usually voluble. We would also have power over the
:01:46. > :01:50.welfare system, for example. I read this morning David Cameron saying
:01:50. > :01:54.the UK system of Government works for Scotland. He is living proof
:01:54. > :01:59.that it does not, because we have Tory prime ministers that we do not
:01:59. > :02:03.even vote for introducing policies we do not want. So you talk about
:02:03. > :02:09.having fiscal power, taxes, but you would not have that monetary power,
:02:09. > :02:14.and at the moment in the UK... not sure that is the case. Let me
:02:14. > :02:18.finish. The whole point of the Act of Union was we were able to use
:02:18. > :02:23.the plant and Scots have that political influence. So staying
:02:23. > :02:27.with Team Sterling -- Stirling does not involve Scotland giving up any
:02:27. > :02:30.powers that we do not currently have, but it gives us important
:02:30. > :02:34.powers of this fiscal arrangements, powers you need to make sure you
:02:35. > :02:38.have a strong, growing economy, creating jobs when you need those
:02:38. > :02:43.jobs, and power over the welfare system. At the moment we are
:02:43. > :02:46.watching the welfare state and being dismantled before our eyes.
:02:46. > :02:50.The papers this morning are full of the stories are that the dreaded
:02:51. > :02:55.bedroom tax. Let's stick with monetary policy and the Bank of
:02:55. > :02:59.England governor, the new one, Mark Carney, is now in the UK. What
:02:59. > :03:02.plans to your administration have to meet him? We would be very happy
:03:02. > :03:07.to meet with him and with any representatives of the UK
:03:07. > :03:11.Government, for example, to discuss all of this, because it is right,
:03:11. > :03:14.going back to Europe, that while we have differing opinions on these
:03:14. > :03:18.matters, we are prepared to have discussions and prepare the ground
:03:18. > :03:21.for the eventuality of Scotland voting "yes" in the referendum. I
:03:21. > :03:26.am sure Mark Carney and other representatives of the UK
:03:26. > :03:30.Government will be interested to read the paper from the Fiscal
:03:30. > :03:33.Commission tomorrow, because it is produced by a range of eminent
:03:34. > :03:38.experts. Let's get on to your document this week, Scotland's
:03:38. > :03:41.Future. That was published, the road map to independence day but
:03:41. > :03:46.the time round has been severely criticised by people. One expert
:03:46. > :03:50.said it was a road map that would eventually lead to a car crash.
:03:50. > :03:55.I heard another on BBC radio yesterday morning saying he thought
:03:55. > :04:00.it was a very leisurely timescale. It is a time scale based on
:04:00. > :04:03.precedent. If you look at 30 countries who have become
:04:03. > :04:08.independent after a referendum, 15 months is the average time that at
:04:08. > :04:12.look. Scotland, and this is important, already has much of the
:04:12. > :04:18.machinery of Government. We have our own parliament, Government,
:04:19. > :04:23.civil services, an independent judicial commission in Scotland.
:04:23. > :04:26.The key point is that Scotland votes "yes" it is also in the
:04:26. > :04:32.interest of the rest of the UK for these matters to be resolved as
:04:32. > :04:37.quickly and smoothly as possible and I believe that is what happened.
:04:37. > :04:41.But I believe the report was heavily criticised by a other
:04:42. > :04:47.experts. Let me just finish. Looking at the constitutional
:04:47. > :04:52.platform you are setting up, what is that house way -- halfway house
:04:52. > :04:55.between 2014 and 2016? After there is an independent parliament
:04:55. > :05:01.elected, the parliament will have the ability to develop a written
:05:01. > :05:04.constitution for the future of Scotland but what we need to see
:05:05. > :05:07.between 2014 and 2016 is a transfer of powers that allows that
:05:07. > :05:17.independent parliament to be elected and start to get to work.
:05:17. > :05:21.We want to see a better Scotland. Thank you.
:05:21. > :05:27.Coming up after the news, we are looking at ATOS, the organisation
:05:27. > :05:34.which tests people 4th it has to work. It is being condemned as a
:05:34. > :05:38.failure by a House of Commons committee. We are also looking at...
:05:38. > :05:41.Joined us in a few minutes. Time for the BBC News and Reporting
:05:41. > :05:47.Scotland. The Environment Minister, Owen
:05:47. > :05:50.Paterson, has moved to reassure shoppers that all processed meat
:05:50. > :05:55.products currently on sale in supermarkets are safe to eat.
:05:55. > :05:58.Speaking on this programme, he said he had been reassured by the FT
:05:59. > :06:02.Standards Authority, despite the fact that tests on a whole range of
:06:02. > :06:09.processed meat products to see if they contain horse meat are being
:06:09. > :06:13.carried out. How much contamination has there
:06:13. > :06:17.been to our food? The Government is already warning they could be more
:06:17. > :06:22.bad news ahead, after the meat in something this lasagne has labelled
:06:22. > :06:28.as beef was found to be up to 100 % horse. Tests are now being carried
:06:28. > :06:33.out across the industry with results due by Friday. People are
:06:33. > :06:38.eating horse meat unerringly this lunch time. That is possible and
:06:38. > :06:43.that is why we are carrying out this screening. It looks as if the
:06:43. > :06:47.problem is with processed beef, and it looks as if there has been no
:06:47. > :06:52.criminal substitution of beef with a horse. A number of retailers have
:06:52. > :06:55.been caught up. Findus is taking legal advice over whether there are
:06:55. > :07:00.crowns of pursuing a case against its suppliers. Ministers have been
:07:00. > :07:05.under fire for not reacting quicker and Labour says congeners --
:07:05. > :07:10.consumers have been given conflicting advice. People are
:07:10. > :07:15.making Joyce is not to buy processed meat and ministers are
:07:15. > :07:21.advised by the feats standards agency. It says, do not eat Findus
:07:21. > :07:26.beef products. Owen Paterson says, I would happily tucking. There will
:07:26. > :07:31.now be a look at stricter rules. The Government is expected to
:07:31. > :07:38.announce an extension of the freeze on inheritance tax to help pay for
:07:38. > :07:43.more state funded care for the elderly in England. It means
:07:43. > :07:47.thousands more people will become liable for the tax.
:07:47. > :07:52.If a month-old baby boy is recovering well in hospital after
:07:52. > :07:56.reportedly having a finger torn off by a fox as he slept in his cot.
:07:56. > :08:00.The child was brushed from his home in south-east London to St Thomas's
:08:00. > :08:04.Hospital, where surgeons were able to reattach his finger.
:08:04. > :08:09.The former England and Tottenham player Paul Gascoigne is reported
:08:09. > :08:13.to have been placed in an intensive care unit after collapsing. He flew
:08:13. > :08:18.to America this week to check into a rehabilitation clinic in Arizona
:08:18. > :08:27.to deal with his drink problems. His trip and time in we have is
:08:27. > :08:32.being paid for by friends. More on BBC One at 6pm.
:08:32. > :08:39.Good afternoon. The UK Government is appearing too -- preparing to
:08:39. > :08:43.release a report tomorrow on Scottish independence. We have been
:08:43. > :08:51.told that they will publish new evidence to bolster their position
:08:51. > :08:56.that Scotland will need to reapply for small -- new EU membership.
:08:56. > :09:01.will be publishing are view, backed up by experts, which shows that
:09:01. > :09:03.Scotland will need to apply for its membership.
:09:03. > :09:06.Scotland's Environment Secretary will discuss with his UK
:09:06. > :09:11.counterpart later to discuss the horse meat scandal. Inspections
:09:11. > :09:17.have been carried out in Scotland after it emerged some meat products
:09:17. > :09:21.south of the border contained 100 % horse meat. Richard Lochhead says
:09:21. > :09:25.no Scottish manufacturers are currently affected. People speak to
:09:25. > :09:29.Owen Paterson this afternoon. The interim Scotland will be coach,
:09:29. > :09:32.Scott Johnson, has claimed the team's aim is now winning the Six
:09:32. > :09:37.Nations Championship after ending their long wait for a victory in
:09:37. > :09:45.the tournament. The Scots defeated Italy 34-10 at Murrayfield, their
:09:45. > :09:50.first Six Nations win in two years. A cloudy picture for the bulk of
:09:50. > :09:55.the country this afternoon, with continued outbreaks of rain forces
:09:55. > :09:58.and Scotland with snow falling in land over the high ground. Wintery
:09:58. > :10:03.showers will continue to feed into eastern parts of the country on a
:10:03. > :10:09.fresh easterly wind, again with snow over the high ground inland.
:10:09. > :10:13.The best of the weather this afternoon for north-western parts
:10:13. > :10:22.and places like Inverness with plenty of sunshine, though cold
:10:22. > :10:26.MPs at Westminster have launched a scathing attack on the UK
:10:26. > :10:30.Government's welfare reforms. The Public Audit Committee says the
:10:30. > :10:35.fit-for-work tests are failing and all too often, leading to the wrong
:10:35. > :10:40.decisions being mate. It is a complaint MSPs and Holyrood's
:10:40. > :10:47.Welfare Reform Committee has been hearing a lot about this week.
:10:47. > :10:53.This process is pushing me to the very edge. This man used to be a
:10:53. > :10:56.debt -- vet before he developed fibromyalgia. He has been on
:10:56. > :11:05.incapacity benefit for Vitali Klitschko years but has recently
:11:05. > :11:12.been assessed as able to work. -- for eight years. My GP says, he is
:11:12. > :11:19.not able to work, because I am able to walk. This is because I make an
:11:20. > :11:23.effort to go out. So now I cannot get support. Lesley's husband is in
:11:23. > :11:31.the same situation. He retired five years ago with mental and physical
:11:31. > :11:35.issues. Now he has been cleared for work, too. She says more notice
:11:35. > :11:40.needs -- needs to be taken of mental health issues. Because he
:11:40. > :11:44.was very slow and took a long time to do the physical part, because he
:11:44. > :11:48.had to do bending and stretching, and that it quite a bit of time,
:11:48. > :11:52.the amount of time that was left was very short, so therefore it had
:11:52. > :11:56.to be very rushed. She says the refusal of GPs to give her husband
:11:56. > :12:02.a medical report because of their blanket acceptance of these
:12:02. > :12:11.benefits test did not help. view was that very understanding of
:12:11. > :12:17.how I was feeling, but a very careful to say the benefits system,
:12:17. > :12:24.we cannot afford the benefits system, the Government, and, you
:12:24. > :12:29.know, people have to be assessed, and if you are assessed as fit, you
:12:29. > :12:33.are fit. And now Westminster's Public Audit Committee says the
:12:33. > :12:40.Department of Work and Pensions is making too many mistakes. Do you
:12:40. > :12:44.know of those who are turned down for Employment? 40% of them appeal
:12:44. > :12:48.and 38 % of them win that appeal. There is something wrong with an
:12:48. > :12:53.assessment that throws up and many appeals in the first place but that
:12:53. > :12:56.many successful appeals is a particular worry. The UK Government
:12:57. > :13:03.insists the benefits assessment process is improving. He says the
:13:03. > :13:07.previous system abandoned's people to a life on benefits. Now they are
:13:07. > :13:11.checking to see if they could go back to work with the right support.
:13:11. > :13:16.The system was not as effective as it could be. We are reforming it to
:13:16. > :13:20.make sure we get more decisions right first time. So far, 17,000
:13:20. > :13:24.Scots have been reclassified as fit for work by Government assessors,
:13:25. > :13:29.ATOS. Those who feel they have been badly treated say they are just
:13:29. > :13:34.calling for a fairer system. More on this now. I am joined by
:13:34. > :13:44.the Labour MP, and Beck, chair of the House of Commons working
:13:44. > :13:53.
:13:53. > :13:58.pension select committee. -- Anne The committee have criticised ATOS.
:13:58. > :14:03.But it you is your government that awarded it and then re warded it in
:14:03. > :14:08.2005. The law process dead start under the last Labour government,
:14:08. > :14:12.but I would like to hope that were we still in power we would have
:14:12. > :14:19.been listening to the deluge of criticism that has been coming down
:14:19. > :14:22.on this process under way it has been working in practice. We only
:14:22. > :14:27.introduced it far new claimants. But what we are seeing is those who
:14:27. > :14:31.were previously on incapacity benefit I now been moved on to the
:14:31. > :14:39.new benefit system, and are having to go through the assessment
:14:39. > :14:42.process. The system inherited from Labour, says the minister, was not
:14:43. > :14:52.fit for purpose. Independent reviews have found that there is
:14:53. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :14:59.not much need for a fireman ATOS. - - for a reform in ATOS. The way
:14:59. > :15:01.that it was designed was not fit for purpose. But it was then
:15:01. > :15:07.incumbent on the government to change the way that it was actually
:15:07. > :15:11.being delivered. There is nothing to stop me doing that. There's
:15:11. > :15:14.nothing to stop us looking again at the contract. The important thing
:15:14. > :15:20.is to look at what is going wrong and what needs to be changed in
:15:20. > :15:24.order to make these assessments. Most people would agree that
:15:24. > :15:28.somebody has to be assessed if they are going to get benefits, but to
:15:28. > :15:33.make those assessments much more accurate, much more softer, in a
:15:33. > :15:36.way, in the way that it reflects the people and their illnesses that
:15:36. > :15:44.they have and gets the positions right. The thing that is most
:15:44. > :15:53.heartbreaking for people is that when these decisions are wrong and
:15:53. > :15:58.when they go to the appeal they are not given any extra evidence, the
:15:58. > :16:05.decisions are being overturned at us on the same evidence. What is
:16:05. > :16:11.the problem with ATOS? Why have we seen so many appeals? There are a
:16:11. > :16:17.couple of reasons. One is that ATOS as a company decided to use a
:16:17. > :16:21.computer program to work out their assessments. That means that it has
:16:21. > :16:27.become very mechanistic. It was always a functional test, many who
:16:27. > :16:34.will think it is a medical test, it is not. And so, the computer tends
:16:34. > :16:37.to see everything very much in black and white. The Public
:16:37. > :16:41.Accounts Committee said that there was not any kind of intent to try
:16:41. > :16:49.to get other companies who would be interested in this he would deliver
:16:49. > :16:53.it quite differently, in a more face-to-face interview process.
:16:53. > :16:58.That is one of the things that has been going wrong. Like me pick up
:16:58. > :17:04.on that point. That is the trouble with ATOS. It is a monopoly
:17:04. > :17:07.supplier. That is it. There are companies throughout the world to
:17:08. > :17:11.do this sort of thing for other governments, but they do not do it
:17:11. > :17:16.in the same way. They have their own system, its computer system,
:17:16. > :17:21.and that is the problem. The reason the numbers are going up is because
:17:21. > :17:31.the government has speeded up the roll-out, or what they call the
:17:31. > :17:36.migration, from those that are presently on capacity benefit.
:17:36. > :17:40.Putting them on to employments support allowance. There are 11,000
:17:40. > :17:43.letters a week going out to people who are presently on incapacity
:17:43. > :17:47.benefit and they are being asked to go when it and to fill in a form
:17:47. > :17:55.and then going for an assessment. Because these are people who have
:17:55. > :18:00.already had benefits, when the lose it, inevitably they are going to
:18:00. > :18:04.appeal. That is where the numbers of Appeal have gone up. But the
:18:04. > :18:09.decisions have also sometimes been wrong in the first place as well.
:18:09. > :18:13.Thank you for joining us. A ban on tobacco displays in supermarkets
:18:13. > :18:19.comes into effect at the end of April, but how far will it go
:18:19. > :18:23.towards persuading smokers to kick the habit? Anti-smoking campaigners
:18:23. > :18:27.say that more radical measures are needed if Scotland is to become
:18:28. > :18:35.smoke-free. With the Scottish Government to reveal its new
:18:36. > :18:40.strategy in the next few weeks, we look at what options are.
:18:40. > :18:45.The dangers of smoking have been known since the late 1950s, but it
:18:45. > :18:50.was only in 2006 that Scotland became the first part of the UK to
:18:50. > :18:55.ban smoking in enclosed public places and it has been seen as a
:18:55. > :19:00.success, with a 17 % drop in heart attacks in the first year, a
:19:00. > :19:05.reduction in sheltered asthma, and have fallen premature births. But
:19:05. > :19:10.while the number of people lighting up has fallen, smoking still leads
:19:10. > :19:15.to 13,500 deaths in Scotland each year. That is one in five. It is
:19:16. > :19:23.also responsible for a 33,500 hospital measures. -- hospital
:19:23. > :19:29.admissions. At the end of April, Scotland will follow England's
:19:29. > :19:34.example of introducing restrictions on tobacco displays in bigger
:19:34. > :19:39.stores. Vending machine at the sales were also be illegal. But
:19:39. > :19:45.campaigners say that more needs to be done. We need to Pate smoking
:19:45. > :19:52.out of fashion. We need to have standardised packaging for tobacco
:19:52. > :19:58.products. Mistily a plot that in. It is about getting rid of the
:19:58. > :20:02.glitzy in injury that gets young people addicted. -- in injury.
:20:02. > :20:05.There are some smokers who do want to quit, but there are many smokers
:20:05. > :20:12.to enjoy it and have no intention of giving up and the more that you
:20:12. > :20:18.try to bully them, the more they are likely to take their hilts in -
:20:18. > :20:23.- dig their heels in. This advert is currently being shown in Wales.
:20:23. > :20:29.It is already illegal in South Africa and some States and Canada,
:20:29. > :20:34.Australia and the US to smoke in your car. Could it be on the cards
:20:34. > :20:37.here? The Public Health Minister is not giving much away. It is
:20:37. > :20:45.important to look at the whole range of measures that we can take
:20:45. > :20:48.forward that can help to contribute to reducing smoking in Scotland.
:20:48. > :20:53.Trying to reduce the number of young people that are attracted to
:20:53. > :20:57.it, we have had some success with that.
:20:57. > :21:03.The smoking ban has become an accepted part of everyday life in
:21:04. > :21:09.Scotland but will further Tobacco's restrictions be as welcome and
:21:09. > :21:11.effective? We are joined by Professor Gerard
:21:11. > :21:15.Hastings from Centre for Tobacco Control Research and the Institute
:21:15. > :21:21.of Social Marketing at Stirling University. Thank you for joining
:21:21. > :21:28.us. Can you enlighten us as to what the Scottish Government's tobacco
:21:28. > :21:32.control strategy might be? The minister was quite tight lipped.
:21:32. > :21:38.is his strategy, so why do not blame him. Listening to his report,
:21:38. > :21:43.it is a very good news story for Scotland. We have made enormous
:21:44. > :21:48.progress over the last few generations year. The majority of
:21:48. > :21:53.people were smoking in Scotland and it was taken for granted as a norm,
:21:53. > :22:00.now it is less than a quarter. What we do need to focus on his young
:22:00. > :22:07.people. Adults do not take up smoking. When we talk about adults
:22:07. > :22:15.enjoying their smoking, it ignores the fact that most adults regret
:22:15. > :22:25.ever starting, but also that it is a paediatric phenomenon. Only 5% of
:22:25. > :22:25.
:22:25. > :22:29.the population smoking weed been then -- would be the ideal. Are you
:22:29. > :22:34.wanting to follow the Australian model and have some gruesome
:22:34. > :22:39.pictures on the carton? packaging should be seen not as a
:22:39. > :22:43.marketing tool of the industry. It is a multinational industry that is
:22:43. > :22:52.exploiting young people and kills one in two of its loyalist
:22:53. > :22:57.customers. Scotland should be rightly angry. It is then he should
:22:57. > :23:00.be in our minds as we move forward on this issue. It is not just a
:23:00. > :23:05.matter of me wanting to change things for the children, we all
:23:05. > :23:10.want that. Even the very few people that are delighted to be smokers,
:23:10. > :23:14.even the would never want children to take up this habit. The pro-
:23:14. > :23:22.smoking lobby, are pro-choice lobby say that the rate of smoking has
:23:22. > :23:27.not fallen that dramatically since evolutions -- since devolution. But
:23:27. > :23:32.tobacco control has gone up 15 fold. It is not as much of this excess it
:23:32. > :23:36.were trying to portray it be? are not thinking it through. Think
:23:36. > :23:41.about the item that he had been the date lay before her about
:23:41. > :23:47.incapacity benefit. How many of those people have got their to
:23:47. > :23:55.tobacco-related illness. It teaches people faster, it can take ten
:23:55. > :24:01.years of your life in every sense. -- it ages people faster. My
:24:01. > :24:07.argument could not be fiscal, it is moral. It is simply wrong that
:24:07. > :24:13.children are pooled into an industry that makes them addicted
:24:13. > :24:17.and then kills them. How much is smoking still linked to
:24:17. > :24:21.deprivation? Enormously. If you go to theirs then you will find barely
:24:21. > :24:27.any smokers. If you go to Drumchapel you will find large
:24:27. > :24:37.sectors of the population smoking. It is enormously so, it is a very
:24:37. > :24:53.
:24:53. > :24:58.MSPs approved the annual budget of �28 billion for 2013-14. Last
:24:58. > :25:02.minute revisions including more money for colleges and the housing
:25:02. > :25:06.budget. This Government is investing to deliver for Scotland's
:25:06. > :25:13.young people in the future. Spontaneous applause across this
:25:13. > :25:21.part of the chamber for a �24 million cut to colleges. The Royal
:25:21. > :25:28.Bank of Scotland has agreed to pay nearly �400 million in fines. It is
:25:28. > :25:32.after the rigging of interest rates in the Libor scandal.
:25:32. > :25:38.In Westminster MPs approved a marriage. Scotland has published a
:25:38. > :25:43.similar bill which is up for consultation at the moment.
:25:43. > :25:49.And a new Scotland football manager in the end against Estonia.
:25:49. > :25:53.Do you think the politicians involved in the referendum debate
:25:53. > :25:59.will like that? Let's take a look at the big
:26:00. > :26:06.political events coming up in The Week Ahead.
:26:06. > :26:09.We have an academic double act this week, with Professor Murray Pittock,
:26:09. > :26:13.vice-principal of does the University, and Professor Adam
:26:13. > :26:22.Tomkins, a constitutional expert and Professor of Public Law at the
:26:22. > :26:28.same institution. Good afternoon. Murray, you have your reading
:26:28. > :26:32.glasses ready this week for these reports coming out? I will get
:26:32. > :26:36.through as many as I can. I am sure I will not get through them as fast
:26:36. > :26:42.as the politicians, but it is important. We have you writing this
:26:42. > :26:47.week saying it we will have your "yes" vote in the independence
:26:47. > :26:50.referendum. One of the reports coming out in the Sunday Herald is
:26:50. > :26:54.up at the Fiscal Commission and on the front page we have the pound
:26:54. > :26:59.logo. Do you think this is something that the Scottish
:26:59. > :27:05.Government will be able to pursue? It is quite a controversial issue,
:27:05. > :27:11.trying to keep the pound but yet separating from the UK. In some
:27:11. > :27:17.ways, we see this as rather too much of a controversial issue, and
:27:17. > :27:22.to take our closest neighbour, in some ways, Ireland, Ireland left
:27:23. > :27:27.the Stirling system on 30th March 1979, about 57 years after the
:27:27. > :27:37.Irish Free State was formed. The idea that countries outside the
:27:37. > :27:37.
:27:37. > :27:41.estate whose currency... A currency from the state which is not their
:27:41. > :27:45.own state is not unknown in the present world from sovereign states
:27:45. > :27:48.in South America to the US dollar. But in terms of Stirling, the Irish
:27:48. > :27:51.example, though it is a very different world, clearly shows
:27:51. > :27:56.there is no reason why an independent Scotland should not
:27:56. > :27:58.keep the pound. Adam, you have been published as well this week,
:27:58. > :28:02.looking at the road map for the independence referendum. First,
:28:02. > :28:06.what is your position on the currency, what the Fiscal
:28:06. > :28:10.Commission are coming out with tomorrow? I do not know, I will
:28:10. > :28:15.read it tomorrow if I get time, thaw as soon as I can there afters.
:28:15. > :28:19.I agree with Murray. I see no reason why England and Scotland
:28:19. > :28:24.cannot keep the pound, but it is one of those very many issues.
:28:24. > :28:27.There are hundreds, probably thousands, that will need to be
:28:28. > :28:31.carefully, Felipe negotiated, between an independent Scotland,
:28:31. > :28:37.the rest are beat UK and the rest of the world in the event that
:28:37. > :28:41.Scotland does boat for independence in 2014. We have not been told the
:28:41. > :28:46.date but that is when we assume it is. It is one of those issues that
:28:46. > :28:49.will have to be talked about extremely carefully. Murray, there
:28:50. > :28:57.is a feeling people are looking for sub-standard facts at the moment.
:28:57. > :29:02.Michael Moore earlier taught about the UK Government report. This
:29:02. > :29:07.claim baby talk about, Scotland having to reapply for EU membership.
:29:07. > :29:10.I will wait and see the report. One of the ways to get fat, and I do
:29:10. > :29:16.not want to undermine our own position here, one of the ways to
:29:16. > :29:20.get facts, he is when experts used to reflect on the things cautiously
:29:20. > :29:24.and carefully, it is quite possible and they could do this all the way
:29:24. > :29:28.to polling day and Deanne, I have set some experts battling away at
:29:28. > :29:32.each of in opposition, because that is the nature of political and
:29:32. > :29:37.legal expertise, it is a practice pitch, and it is about conflict
:29:38. > :29:42.rather than conflict resolution. We need to have facts and there are a
:29:42. > :29:46.lot of facts out there. They could be more. They could be stronger
:29:46. > :29:52.research about the nature of comparative transitions. That is an
:29:52. > :29:55.important thing to get in place over the next 18 months. Whether
:29:55. > :30:00.they could be bat the Government has so they could be a transition
:30:00. > :30:04.to independence in 16 months. That is viewed as controversial. Third
:30:04. > :30:09.parties could put a spoke in the wheels there but we have to spot --
:30:09. > :30:13.start somewhere. Adam, you are a constitutional expert. What do you
:30:14. > :30:18.think about the Government coming out with their expert tomorrow? How
:30:18. > :30:27.do you think this place out with voters? My expert versus your
:30:27. > :30:32.expert. I did not see any expert in the Scottish Government report this
:30:32. > :30:37.week. What we will see on Monday is a full legal analysis of where we
:30:37. > :30:41.are in terms of Scotland's institution now and where we would
:30:41. > :30:46.be in the future if Scotland votes for independence. In this respect,
:30:46. > :30:49.the UK Government is doing exactly what it was told to do by the
:30:49. > :30:51.Electoral Commission in its report a couple of weeks ago where except
:30:51. > :30:57.those governments should come together and talk as clearly as
:30:57. > :31:03.they possibly can about the consequences of the decision that
:31:03. > :31:07.we in Scotland will take in 2014, and whether we vote "yes" or "no".
:31:07. > :31:10.What will happen next. And the reason I was so angry at what the
:31:10. > :31:16.Scottish Government published this week is because they might win, and
:31:16. > :31:21.if they win, they are going to have to negotiate hard with the rest of
:31:21. > :31:25.the UK and the rest of the EU. If the 16th flimsy pages they
:31:25. > :31:33.published this week is the best they can do, we are in real, deep
:31:33. > :31:35.trouble. Would you regard it as 16 flimsy pages, Murray? It is a
:31:35. > :31:40.statement of the Scottish Government's position. Their
:31:40. > :31:46.difficulty is this, that the more of their hand they show early, the
:31:46. > :31:51.more it will be attacked, and pigs and misrepresented, so although I
:31:51. > :31:55.understand Adam's anxiety that the negotiations, I doubt that that
:31:55. > :32:02.will be the case. What I do see is that there is quite a lot of
:32:02. > :32:05.political... Quite a lot of political ill-will and name-calling
:32:05. > :32:09.as there has been throughout my entire lifetime about nationalism,
:32:09. > :32:14.and it is important to ensure that you do not put everything out on
:32:14. > :32:19.the table so it can depicts part of by better resourced governments,
:32:19. > :32:26.better resourced media throughout the UK long before the vote.
:32:26. > :32:35.other issue. The front page, SNP asleep on drop over horse meat.
:32:35. > :32:42.Let's not get into the issues. But a fairly gruesome topic for the
:32:42. > :32:52.public. I am sure it is a rather political topic for the public. But
:32:52. > :32:54.
:32:54. > :32:59.I see everything through the eyes of a constitutional lawyer. Food
:32:59. > :33:04.Standards is an issue whinges the shared responsibility of the UK and
:33:04. > :33:09.Scottish governments. -- the witches. This is an instance where
:33:09. > :33:13.we are better together. The food goes across our border. And this is
:33:13. > :33:17.an instance where, if Richard Lochhead had not co-operated with
:33:17. > :33:23.the UK Government, we would have had the press saying that the SNP
:33:23. > :33:29.get nothing for consumers in Carlisle. Thank you buys very much.