:00:38. > :00:44.Two leaders. Two legacies. But what exactly can Mrs Thatcher and Mr
:00:44. > :00:47.Blair teach their parties today? As Maggie exits stage right, we
:00:47. > :00:53.will ask Tory Chairman Grant Shapps whether his party can ever win
:00:53. > :00:56.outright again. And after Tony Blair's warning that
:00:56. > :01:06.Ed Miliband's Labour risks becoming a party of protest, not power, we
:01:06. > :01:07.
:01:07. > :01:11.are joined by former Home Secretary How will history judge the battle
:01:11. > :01:16.between Mrs Thatcher and the unions and what is their role in Britain
:01:16. > :01:18.today? The TUC secretary and the former trade minister Digby Jones
:01:18. > :01:21.go head-to-head. And on Sunday Politics Scotland: Is
:01:21. > :01:23.the SNP's policy of no-nuclear weapons compatible with NATO's
:01:23. > :01:33.nuclear stance? Has the First Minister's trip to
:01:33. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :31:53.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1820 seconds
:31:54. > :31:57.Do you accept that looking back, by 1979, the unions had got too big
:31:57. > :32:03.for their boots and no matter who won the election, they would be
:32:03. > :32:08.taken down? We can argue about the 1970s but it was Britain's most
:32:08. > :32:13.equalled decade and what followed, you can draw up a direct line
:32:13. > :32:19.between Margaret Thatcher's policies of demonising the unions,
:32:19. > :32:25.but also deregulating the banks, privatising utilities, and selling
:32:25. > :32:32.off council homes without replacing them, you can draw a direct line
:32:32. > :32:39.between that and the mess we are living with today.
:32:39. > :32:42.She did not answer the question. In 1979, this country was in such a
:32:42. > :32:49.mess because of four or Fife and democratically elected people
:32:49. > :32:55.decided on behalf of the whole nation -- at five. And Labour
:32:55. > :33:00.Chancellor Denis Healey said, I will cut one penny off basic rate
:33:00. > :33:06.income tax are four union leaders agreed to a �6 pay rise limit, so
:33:06. > :33:10.who was running the country? What I find sad about these demonstrations
:33:10. > :33:14.and a refusal to answer that question is that those who were
:33:14. > :33:20.around at the time realised it was not Margaret Thatcher that brought
:33:20. > :33:25.the unions into with proper place in society, it actually was Britain.
:33:25. > :33:29.But because the average skilled working person in my home town of
:33:29. > :33:33.Birmingham was told, you will join a union or you will not have a job
:33:33. > :33:38.and if you were going to vote against what we want, we will beat
:33:38. > :33:45.you up! That is no way to run a society and Britain knew that, so
:33:45. > :33:51.it was the average person in the street food at the. Of -- in the
:33:51. > :33:54.street that did that. Answer this with yes or no, it was
:33:54. > :34:01.Margaret Thatcher right to introduce secret ballots for
:34:01. > :34:08.industrial action? Unions are democratic organisations. Yes or
:34:08. > :34:18.no? I would like to talk about what is happening now and not just in
:34:18. > :34:24.the past. Unions are democratic organisations. Washy right? It is
:34:24. > :34:27.members who will decide. -- was she right. There was strong support for
:34:27. > :34:34.strikes, it is insulting to ordinary people to support -- to
:34:34. > :34:40.suggest otherwise. Was she right? We are democratic organisations now
:34:40. > :34:44.and we are not interested in looking at battles of the 1970s but
:34:44. > :34:49.looking at the mess we have had because unions have been
:34:49. > :34:54.marginalised and societies. We had great support for the public sector
:34:54. > :34:59.pensions strike in 2011, two thirds of the public supported us,
:35:00. > :35:06.something is very wrong in Britain today and diverting the debate on
:35:06. > :35:12.to the 1970s will not help us sort out today. Clearly I have failed to
:35:12. > :35:16.get your attitudes on this. The unions have clearly lost power
:35:16. > :35:21.since 1979, Digby Jones, but the consequence has been there has been
:35:21. > :35:26.a big move in this country from our share of wealth going to profits at
:35:26. > :35:30.the expense of wages, wages have a small percentage of the GDP than
:35:30. > :35:37.before, but companies are not spending these profits. If readers
:35:37. > :35:42.were higher, the economy would do better, would it not? Statistically,
:35:42. > :35:46.you are right. There is one great example where shareholders have
:35:46. > :35:51.suffered at the expense of the workers and that is called bankers'
:35:51. > :35:58.bonuses, they have had bonuses at the expense of pension funds and
:35:58. > :36:03.you know I am right in that! Breeches, real wages have fallen
:36:03. > :36:08.and that is one of the reasons we are still in recession -- wages.
:36:08. > :36:12.do not think that is one of the reasons, because of the enhanced
:36:12. > :36:18.profit retained in the business, they are not spending it because of
:36:18. > :36:21.lack of confidence, a view of right. Francis is doing herself down
:36:21. > :36:25.because if you look at a private sector, the assets of partnership
:36:25. > :36:31.between good-quality unions and business is brilliant and is an
:36:32. > :36:39.example for Europe. Go look at Rolls Royce, for example, the
:36:39. > :36:44.unionised places -- look at. It will become attractive to capital
:36:44. > :36:49.from the world, the issue is the public sector. Act we have not got
:36:49. > :36:54.enough time. -- we have not. The majority of people believe the
:36:54. > :36:57.balance of power is too much in the favour of employers and that
:36:58. > :37:03.growing inequality we saw on the Thatcher and is increasing
:37:03. > :37:08.massively again today is one of the important causes of the crash --
:37:08. > :37:14.under Thatcher. There is too much power at the top and not enough for
:37:14. > :37:17.ordinary people and we need a different economy to move forward,
:37:17. > :37:22.even the Christian Democrats in Germany now accept that we just
:37:22. > :37:28.need to rise and collective bargaining needs to spread, and I
:37:28. > :37:32.think employers like Digby Jones he joined the union much in favour of
:37:32. > :37:39.Bombardier staying open it must have joined us and argue for a
:37:39. > :37:48.proper industrial policy for jobs and growth. And you for joining me.
:37:48. > :37:50.Good morning and welcome back to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up
:37:50. > :37:54.on the programme. NATO has suggested if Scotland
:37:54. > :37:57.becomes a "new state," it would not be a member of the Military
:37:57. > :38:00.Alliance, and would have to apply to join. The First Minister has
:38:00. > :38:05.said he is certain a request for continued membership of NATO would
:38:05. > :38:08.be accepted, despite his commitment to make Scotland nuclear-free.
:38:08. > :38:11.We will be live in Washington, with a former White House Special
:38:11. > :38:15.Assistant to President George W Bush and one-time chair of NATO's
:38:15. > :38:19.Nuclear Policy Committee, the High Level Group.
:38:19. > :38:22.And we have heard from the great and the good on Thatcher's legacy,
:38:22. > :38:32.but how did living through the '80s affect people's lives? What was the
:38:32. > :38:32.
:38:32. > :38:36.NATO and nukes. They go together like bread and butter, or should
:38:36. > :38:41.that be chalk and cheese, depending on your political persuasion? Both
:38:41. > :38:44.have seen action this weekend on Scottish soil. War games are being
:38:44. > :38:49.played out off the Scottish coast, with NATO and other allied forces,
:38:49. > :38:51.as part of a joint military warrior exercise. Meanwhile, Scrap Trident
:38:51. > :39:01.demonstrators gathered in Glasgow yesterday, ahead of a planned anti-
:39:01. > :39:01.
:39:01. > :39:04.nuclear protest at Faslane on Monday.
:39:04. > :39:06.The First Minister has also been in the States, reassuring the
:39:06. > :39:09.Americans that an independent Scotland would be a reliable
:39:09. > :39:11.military partner, without nuclear weapons. We caught up with our
:39:11. > :39:17.correspondent, Glenn Campbell, who has been following the story State-
:39:17. > :39:22.side this week. As an independent country, Scotland
:39:22. > :39:26.would have to establish itself internationally by taking up a seat
:39:26. > :39:31.at the United Nations and a son -- and becoming an independent member
:39:31. > :39:35.of the European Union and NATO. Alex Salmond stepped into the
:39:35. > :39:39.international arena, visiting the United States this week, and he
:39:39. > :39:44.presented himself as a Prime Minister in waiting. Rather than
:39:44. > :39:49.taking part and the colourful Tartan Day Parade, he made the
:39:49. > :39:53.second of three speeches on the future of Scotland. In Washington
:39:53. > :39:57.he made former up -- he met former US Secretary of State Colin Powell
:39:57. > :40:02.but did not get an appointment with anybody in the current
:40:02. > :40:07.administration. He delivered a message to them by making the third
:40:07. > :40:11.speech at the Brookings Institution on defence, to reassure Watson
:40:11. > :40:16.turned -- Washington that an independent Scotland would be a
:40:16. > :40:22.reliable partner in NATO, participating in the air and naval
:40:22. > :40:27.defence of Europe, as a non nuclear member of this nuclear alliance.
:40:27. > :40:32.Alex Salmond says it is possible and certain he believes that could
:40:32. > :40:36.be negotiated between a point at which there is a yes vote in the
:40:36. > :40:42.referendum and the point of independence, a year and a half
:40:42. > :40:47.later. NATO has said if Scotland is regarded as a new state, it would
:40:47. > :40:53.not be a member of NATO and that contrasts with Alex Salmond's
:40:53. > :40:57.position. There is a warning, NATO says a definitive do for --
:40:57. > :41:02.definitive determination and would have to be made by the 28 member
:41:02. > :41:05.countries, they have not discussed it. Alex Salmond is hoping in the
:41:05. > :41:08.event of independence, they would be more accommodating than that
:41:08. > :41:10.statement would suggest. Let's cross now to Washington,
:41:10. > :41:13.where we can talk to Franklin Miller. Franklin was a Special
:41:13. > :41:17.Assistant to President George W Bush for four years and a Senior
:41:17. > :41:20.Director for Defense Policy on the National Security Council. He has
:41:20. > :41:23.also spent over two decades as a senior official in the Defense
:41:23. > :41:31.Department and served for five years as the chair of NATO's
:41:31. > :41:40.Nuclear Policy Committee, the High Level Group.
:41:40. > :41:46.He could morning. -- good morning. We are hearing from our reporter,
:41:46. > :41:51.what do you think of the SNP's plans to secure NATO membership but
:41:51. > :41:56.remain free of nuclear weapons? first thing we have to establish as
:41:56. > :42:00.the basic principle that NATO is a defensive alliance whose job is to
:42:00. > :42:07.prevent aggression against member countries. And nuclear deterrence
:42:07. > :42:11.is a critical element of NATO's policy, as endorsed most recently
:42:11. > :42:17.twice in November 2010 at the Lisbon summit and made 2012 at the
:42:17. > :42:23.Chicago so met by the leaders of the 28 NATO countries. -- a summit.
:42:23. > :42:28.So the question is if the SNP believes nuclear deterrence is an
:42:28. > :42:32.acceptable on principle. I have seen press reports that suggest the
:42:32. > :42:38.SNP believe nuclear-weapons are illegal and should be banned and if
:42:38. > :42:42.that is the case, that is inconsistent with the NATO position
:42:42. > :42:48.that they are a critical part of the alliance defence component.
:42:49. > :42:57.his article 5 of the alliance defence treaty, is it not? -- that
:42:57. > :43:01.is. It is part of the agreement from the defence policy review as
:43:01. > :43:05.agreed in 22nd May of a. Alex Salmond, in his speech to the
:43:05. > :43:11.bricking -- to the Brookings Institute, and spoke about
:43:11. > :43:15.continued membership of NATO, put thwart Robert son this week said
:43:15. > :43:20.Scotland as an independent country would have to reapply -- Lord
:43:20. > :43:24.Robertson. What do you think? think Lord Robertson is right that
:43:24. > :43:31.an independent Scotland would have to reapply. So the first question
:43:31. > :43:38.is, do they believe if an independent Scotland has not,
:43:38. > :43:41.applying for an organisation like this seems not to be logical. If
:43:41. > :43:48.the SNP does accept nuclear deterrence as a general principle,
:43:48. > :43:53.a second question is, why would an independent separatist Scotland
:43:53. > :44:00.force the UK deterrent out of Faslane, making it more difficult
:44:00. > :44:04.for the UK to contribute to the nuclear alliance? So the alliance
:44:04. > :44:09.believes it needs that deterrent, it could be removed from Scotland
:44:09. > :44:15.or forced out, could there be a backlash from the United States?
:44:15. > :44:20.think yes, because extending the nuclear umbrella by the United
:44:20. > :44:27.States and the UK over the alliance requires that that our eyes to some
:44:27. > :44:34.of the risk sharing and they should be no free good here -- that allies.
:44:34. > :44:38.But an income -- but a -- but an independent Scotland would say, we
:44:38. > :44:42.off-line with a nuclear umbrella but we are not taking part in that
:44:42. > :44:47.risk or burden and we will complicate the deterrent by
:44:48. > :44:52.expelling it from Faslane. But Alex Salmond pointed out we could have
:44:52. > :44:57.American bases on Scottish soil and if they only had conventional
:44:57. > :45:04.weapons, that would be West and burden-sharing, would the Americans
:45:04. > :45:10.to accept that? -- a whisker? is interesting, but given the
:45:10. > :45:13.current budgetary circumstances we faced, there would be no
:45:13. > :45:19.establishing American bases in Scotland or anywhere else at this
:45:20. > :45:26.time, so it is an empty offer a. theoretically, if there was a base
:45:26. > :45:31.in Scotland, we believe nuclear weapons have been removed, cut the
:45:31. > :45:36.Americans dictate what kind of weapons they could store? -- Could
:45:36. > :45:40.the Americans. That would have to be worked out by the USA and the
:45:40. > :45:45.Scottish government. The Independent Scottish government, if
:45:45. > :45:52.that were to exist. BUSA cannot introduce nuclear weapons without
:45:52. > :45:57.the consent of the host country -- and the USA. That brings us to the
:45:57. > :46:01.issue of submarines on the West Coast of Scotland. The Americans
:46:01. > :46:07.would not have to say if there was a nuclear missile on board, so if
:46:07. > :46:14.you are part of NATO, you could have a nuclear missile on Scottish
:46:14. > :46:18.territory and not know about it. do not think that is true. The
:46:18. > :46:24.ballistic nuclear -- the ballistic missile submarines are distinct
:46:24. > :46:29.warships and they do have nuclear missiles, so if an American nuclear
:46:29. > :46:34.missile submarine came up the River Clyde, one would have to issue it
:46:34. > :46:39.was carrying weapons. It is US policy either to confirm or deny
:46:39. > :46:47.the presence, but it would be obvious what a nuclear missile
:46:47. > :46:52.submarine would be carrying. What the Americans see that as an
:46:52. > :46:57.acceptable part of risk and burden- sharing? I do not think so because
:46:57. > :47:01.expelling the force, the Royal Navy, from the River Clyde, makes
:47:01. > :47:06.Britain's role in protecting the alliance with its own nuclear
:47:06. > :47:11.deterrent much more difficult and it complicate the situation where
:47:11. > :47:16.the United Kingdom currently supplies part of the NATO nuclear
:47:16. > :47:21.deterrent. Last week, the NATO generally -- Secretary General
:47:21. > :47:26.congratulated the Royal Navy -- the Royal Navy on this latest deterrent
:47:26. > :47:31.patrol, saying it was an important contribution to NATO's defence and
:47:31. > :47:34.expelling it from the River Clyde would complicate the ability of the
:47:34. > :47:40.UK to have that deterrent capability to protect the lines
:47:40. > :47:45.that Scotland says it would like to join. -- the alliance. More weight
:47:45. > :47:51.and Denmark have banned nuclear weapons, but they are key members
:47:51. > :48:01.of the alliance, so how do you say the SNP's position is not logical,
:48:01. > :48:06.
:48:06. > :48:16.but we have countries like Norway Expelling will do this for us from
:48:16. > :48:21.the Clyde would expel the status quo. Others tried to expel a
:48:21. > :48:25.nuclear weapons from Germany, a US nuclear weapons, and he was rounded
:48:25. > :48:29.damage by the United States and NATO as saying that they were
:48:29. > :48:35.shirking responsibility that they had assumed a long time ago, so it
:48:35. > :48:43.is about today and not what was decided decades ago. Thank you.
:48:43. > :48:46.Thank you for joining s from Washington DC. Thank you. With us
:48:46. > :48:50.to talk about their parties' policies, we have Labour's Jim
:48:50. > :48:55.Murphy and in Moray, the SNP's Angus Robertson.
:48:56. > :49:01.Anger is, what you are proposing is not to a poll, remaining free of
:49:01. > :49:07.nuclear weapons as Mr Salmond proposed this week, Mr Miller said
:49:07. > :49:11.that this is illogical. He has the right to that point of view, but it
:49:11. > :49:15.does not square the facts that Norway and Denmark are not
:49:15. > :49:21.currently member-states of the NATO had to not have nuclear weapons on
:49:21. > :49:25.their soil and have a policy that they do not want to have them on
:49:25. > :49:30.their soil, and we need to look at the departure of nuclear-weapons
:49:30. > :49:34.from Greece and Canada, so it is entirely consistent about wanting
:49:34. > :49:41.to work together with neighbours and allies and we would do that as
:49:41. > :49:45.a conventionally armed country, just as the overwhelming numbers of
:49:45. > :49:53.Salem Fayyad Estates. And later in the East: is to work against
:49:53. > :50:01.nuclear disarmament and Scotland can play its part in that.
:50:01. > :50:06.-- NATO is for working against. Franklin Miller said that Norway
:50:06. > :50:10.and Denmark had a consistent position, you were consistently
:50:10. > :50:15.upsetting the applecart with this position, he said when it comes
:50:15. > :50:21.down to it, you're not playing your part in the risk and burden-
:50:21. > :50:26.sharing? I just mentioned the fact that both Canada and Greece which
:50:26. > :50:30.had tactical nuclear weapons had them removed. That with the change
:50:30. > :50:36.of the status quo. It was possible for them, it would be possible for
:50:36. > :50:42.us. Scotland is in a very important geographical position in northern
:50:42. > :50:47.Europe, the North Sea to the east, the Atlantic to the West, we need
:50:47. > :50:54.to have proportional forces. The UK does not provide that in Scotland
:50:54. > :50:57.at the moment, there is they owe conventional naval craft, there is
:50:57. > :51:03.no maritime patrol craft. That is what neighbouring countries want us
:51:03. > :51:07.to do, to remain within the NATO and work than a conventional basis.
:51:07. > :51:13.It is important to work within NATO and our neighbours and friends.
:51:13. > :51:18.Murphy, it is ironic that what the SNP is proposing is what a lot of
:51:18. > :51:23.Labour people would like to see, a nuclear free Scotland but retaining
:51:23. > :51:27.the safety of the NATO umbrella. The more we discuss this, the more
:51:27. > :51:33.that we listen to Mr Miller in Washington, it is clear that the
:51:33. > :51:36.SNP have not done their homework. We're trying to get out of a
:51:36. > :51:41.military alliance in the UK and not meet the rules of the largest
:51:41. > :51:45.military alliance which is NATO. This idea that there will be a
:51:45. > :51:53.quick fix and an independent Scotland can rejoin NATO is funds
:51:53. > :51:57.of will. On the rules, the facts are clear. You do not have to have
:51:57. > :52:01.nuclear weapons on your soil, you have to have in principle and
:52:01. > :52:06.practice, the collective security of the nuclear umbrella which the
:52:06. > :52:11.SNP is playing with words, but they do not sign up to. The second is
:52:11. > :52:15.about money, you have to pay the bills. Even the creator budget they
:52:15. > :52:21.have come up with which nobody accepts, it doesn't meet the NATO
:52:21. > :52:24.threshold. They will be knocking on a closed door if they are
:52:24. > :52:32.independent, knocking on the doors of teenagers saying we will not
:52:32. > :52:36.sign up the rules, he does not make sense. Not signing up to the rules?
:52:36. > :52:44.I am delighted, we can read the transcript that he has accepted
:52:44. > :52:54.that NATO member states do not have to host nuclear weapons. I am
:52:54. > :52:56.
:52:56. > :53:02.surprised that is news to you. you can let me finish, thank you,
:53:02. > :53:06.and if you look at the SNP budget for Defence and Security, 1.7 % of
:53:06. > :53:11.GDP is the European NATO average. We have looked at what neighbours,
:53:11. > :53:14.allies and friends do and we have worked out that we need to focus
:53:14. > :53:22.efforts on maritime conventional defence, are due a strategic
:53:22. > :53:25.position suggests this is the right thing to do. 80 % of people in
:53:25. > :53:30.Scotland Stuart wants nuclear weapons, so Jim Murphy can choose
:53:30. > :53:33.to disregard the opinions of the Scottish people. I am on the side
:53:33. > :53:39.of the majority of the people of Scotland to want rid of Trident to
:53:39. > :53:46.work with neighbours and friends and that is the way to go. He duet
:53:46. > :53:50.had to read by transcript, anyone watching this programme will know
:53:50. > :53:55.that NATO did not want bigger weapons. We enjoy comparing
:53:55. > :54:01.Scotland with Norway. Enure fanciful budget of �2.5 billion,
:54:01. > :54:06.Norway's spends about 4.5 on its defence. Let's compare like with
:54:06. > :54:11.like. It makes no sense to leave the UK military, come out of the
:54:11. > :54:15.British Army, the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force. It makes sense
:54:15. > :54:19.that we share that responsibility on these islands and the SNP knows
:54:19. > :54:23.that their arguments doesn't add up in terms of leaving the UK military
:54:23. > :54:32.and they are looking for another alliance. The only other allies to
:54:32. > :54:37.stop fulfil the rules of criteria. They have not done their homework.
:54:37. > :54:47.Mr Robertson, why can you not to be like Ireland and not be a NATO
:54:47. > :54:50.member, not to join NATO? For the reasons I about light, we are in a
:54:50. > :54:54.specific strategic geographical position and we need to live up to
:54:54. > :54:57.our responsibilities for neighbours, allies and regions and dangerous
:54:57. > :55:02.stability and providing for the appropriate commercial defence. We
:55:02. > :55:06.had been looking at the Danish model and at 1.7 % of budgets and
:55:06. > :55:12.we could provide a very comparative offering no to that with that NATO
:55:12. > :55:17.alive. Of these countries did not live up to their responsibility,
:55:17. > :55:20.they would be calling for their expulsion, but they are not, they
:55:20. > :55:25.accept what they do working with neighbours and allies and that is
:55:25. > :55:29.what Scotland will do, it is just a shame about Jim Murphy does regards
:55:29. > :55:34.that use of the majority of people of Scotland to do that once a
:55:34. > :55:39.nuclear weapons in our country. would you define nuclear free,
:55:39. > :55:43.because if you have got its submarines are sailing up the River
:55:43. > :55:48.Clyde, you do not know what will be on board, the American submarine
:55:48. > :55:55.will lost any what is on board, there could be a nuclear missile
:55:55. > :56:01.coming in to Scotland and you have a nice tea with their policy? By --
:56:01. > :56:07.and you have an anti-nuclear policy. It is entirely workable policy we
:56:07. > :56:10.should not confuse two things. There is a rite of passage on the
:56:10. > :56:13.conventional law of the sea and the United Nations and there is the
:56:13. > :56:17.agreement that you ask that they do not bring a nuclear-armed vessels
:56:17. > :56:25.into the port. That is how it works with your weight, I June Rudd see
:56:25. > :56:29.why it cannot work with Scotland. - - I do not see why it cannot work.
:56:29. > :56:38.In the Sunday Herald's today, it was said Scotland B nuclear free is
:56:38. > :56:44.unlikely to be a serious impediment to NATO membership. Wigan have the
:56:44. > :56:49.conversation unilateralism first as a multilateralism. World events
:56:49. > :56:54.show that decisions will be taken in the next few years and the
:56:54. > :56:58.decision on the defence will sort us out for decades to come. You can
:56:58. > :57:01.give up a nuclear weapons, by yourself, if you can with certainty
:57:01. > :57:07.predict what the next 50 years were provided terms of world events.
:57:07. > :57:11.Nobody knows what it will look like in the next 50 years, and it is
:57:11. > :57:16.irresponsible to be unilateralist. The UK, the Chinese, the Russians,
:57:16. > :57:22.the French, all of those countries together, lets negotiated get rid
:57:22. > :57:27.of weapons that way. But with North Korea, Iran, tried to get to
:57:27. > :57:34.nuclear-weapons, a nuclear weapons arms race in beat Middle-East, it
:57:34. > :57:41.makes no sense Forester give up their nuclear capability. It is a
:57:41. > :57:48.mystery as to what Labour actually want. The New Statesman called the
:57:48. > :57:52.silence from July Lamont deafening. What does she want? The Labour
:57:52. > :58:01.Party, all of us, we are nutty unilateralist party. We do not
:58:01. > :58:07.believe in unilaterally giving up nuclear. It defends his reserve to
:58:07. > :58:12.the House of Commons along with many important issues. Invite us
:58:12. > :58:16.all on to the programme, the Labour Party, we believe in nuclear
:58:16. > :58:21.disarmament in a difficult world that is volatile, with all of these
:58:21. > :58:24.countries have tried to acquire a capability. The idea of the UK
:58:24. > :58:28.giving up this capability does not make much sense, but the
:58:28. > :58:32.conversation, we asked everyone, the more questions you ask, be
:58:32. > :58:36.fewer answers you get. Why would you give up membership of the
:58:36. > :58:39.fourth largest military in the world in terms of defence spending?
:58:39. > :58:43.Despite the cuts come up why would you give up the most capable
:58:43. > :58:48.European nation for Defence, why throw that all away on an offer at
:58:48. > :58:55.a risk and a one-way bet that they have their answers, on why he would
:58:55. > :58:59.leave the British Army, the Royal Navy and everything behind. Making
:58:59. > :59:07.that point about to one LUNT, but Mr Murphy saying that the Labour
:59:07. > :59:11.Party are not in favour of unilateral disarmament. That will
:59:11. > :59:15.come to a lot of disappointments to people in the Labour Party who wish
:59:15. > :59:20.that it was. They endorse their position that they would prefer to
:59:20. > :59:25.get rid of nuclear-weapons. We do not even in Scotland let's use
:59:25. > :59:27.their money for conventional defence. Week in spent or a
:59:27. > :59:32.conventional defence with independence less than in the UK at
:59:32. > :59:36.get rid of nuclear-weapons which is a good deal to me. On rescanned
:59:36. > :59:43.burden-sharing, Mr Salmond said that he was keen to see American
:59:43. > :59:48.bases here, but John well so, the SNP MSP has spoken out about this
:59:48. > :59:53.move, say because lots of attack in Syria or hold with the weapons. --
:59:53. > :00:01.John Wilson. He has been consistent with his position in conference
:00:01. > :00:06.last year when he opposed the policy I put to him. It said we
:00:06. > :00:08.were in favour of base sharing its logistics training, so it is up to
:00:09. > :00:13.a sovereign Scottish government to make the appropriate arrangements
:00:13. > :00:17.if that is ever proposed, but the SNP is in favour of this, the
:00:18. > :00:23.conference has passed his policy. Far Riley, Jim Murphy, we are
:00:23. > :00:26.speaking about the Labour position on Trident, a very prominent
:00:26. > :00:32.Belaubre of your party, Lord Brown, a former Defence Secretary, he is
:00:32. > :00:35.sceptical about this too. He is looking to see if we can maintain a
:00:35. > :00:43.military and spilt your capability at a lower cost which is sensible
:00:43. > :00:46.to look at. In a complicated world of many powerful nations at stages
:00:46. > :00:51.countries, it takes more than passing a resolution at a
:00:51. > :00:58.conference to create a reality. The fact that you cannot walk into two
:00:58. > :01:07.as it would be needed state, Paul Ince took five years. -- walked
:01:07. > :01:10.into NATO as an independent state. We are heading to London for the
:01:10. > :01:15.news, see you in a moment. The London School of Economics has
:01:15. > :01:20.accused the BBC of endangering its dubious by sending ecru with a bump
:01:20. > :01:24.to the North Korea had to film an undercover documentary. The London
:01:24. > :01:32.School said that they were not old enough to give informed consent and
:01:32. > :01:36.it could give serious damage to the school of for academic integrity.
:01:36. > :01:41.The BBC refutes this and says the programme will go ahead.
:01:41. > :01:46.The Panorama team fold under cover for eight days last month,
:01:46. > :01:51.travelling on a state organised tour, but the LSE claims that by
:01:51. > :01:55.posing as students, they put the entire group in danger. The LSE has
:01:55. > :02:00.accused the BBC of using lies and deception from the outset. It says
:02:00. > :02:05.it had no prior knowledge of this trip and about the BBC is unwilling
:02:05. > :02:07.to take responsibility for endangering its students. The BBC
:02:07. > :02:13.says the students were told twice a day journalist would be travelling
:02:13. > :02:16.with thermal, and what about the risk of arrest and detention. But
:02:16. > :02:21.the journalist John Sweeney acknowledges that they were not
:02:21. > :02:28.told that there was an undercover teams of three phoning a high-
:02:28. > :02:31.profile documentary. We told them enough but not enough to put them
:02:31. > :02:36.in parallel something went bad. Nothing went bad, we got away with
:02:36. > :02:42.it. It was preposterous, but the students helped us and the majority
:02:42. > :02:46.of students are very happy for this to go ahead. As an LSE graduate I
:02:46. > :02:51.find it extraordinary that an institution that believes in free
:02:51. > :03:01.thought should call for a documentary not to be aired.
:03:01. > :03:08.
:03:08. > :03:11.has refused the request to withdraw The US Secretary of State, John
:03:11. > :03:14.Kerry, is visiting Tokyo in his latest attempt to build pressure on
:03:14. > :03:17.North Korea. As Mr Kerry arrived, Japan said the two countries should
:03:17. > :03:19.send a strong message to North Korea to give up its nuclear
:03:19. > :03:21.weapons programmes. Anti-missile systems have been stationed around
:03:22. > :03:24.Tokyo, in anticipation of a North Korean missile launch.
:03:24. > :03:27.Details have been published of the funeral service for Lady Thatcher,
:03:28. > :03:30.to be held at St Paul's Cathedral on Wednesday. As Lady Thatcher
:03:30. > :03:33.requested, the service will include music by English composers, and
:03:33. > :03:43.will contain some of her favourite hymns, reflecting both her
:03:43. > :03:44.
:03:44. > :03:49.patriotism and her upbringing as a Methodist.
:03:49. > :03:53.Firefighters have managed to contain life by it -- a fire at a
:03:53. > :03:58.zoo in west London. The fire started in the tropical house,
:03:58. > :04:03.firefighters rescued two crocodiles and cannot have but some animals
:04:03. > :04:13.and cannot have but some animals and cannot have but some animals
:04:13. > :04:17.
:04:17. > :04:20.have died. -- and an otter. That is all for now.
:04:20. > :04:23.Good afternoon. Firefighters have been tackling a blaze at a zoo in
:04:23. > :04:26.West Lothian. The fire is now thought to be under control, but
:04:26. > :04:28.the number of animals killed is still being assessed. Our reporter,
:04:28. > :04:32.Catriona Renton, is there. You can see the boat out house
:04:32. > :04:39.behind me, all the animals in the reptile house perished. A couple of
:04:39. > :04:45.crocodiles outside have been rescued, the moment it is not clear
:04:45. > :04:50.how many animals have died. -- at the moment. The zoo keeper is
:04:50. > :05:00.trying to see if any animals are still hiding. The me a cats
:05:00. > :05:05.chocolate spike and they have a tunnel to get outside. -- meercats.
:05:05. > :05:10.The reason for the fire is not yet known and the owners are devastated
:05:10. > :05:12.by what has happened. The Scottish Parliament is to
:05:13. > :05:15.debate Baroness Thatcher's legacy, on the day of her funeral. The
:05:15. > :05:17.joint Green-Independent group have set aside their allotted time at
:05:17. > :05:27.Holyrood for the debate. The Scottish Conservatives have
:05:27. > :05:28.
:05:28. > :05:38.criticised the timing, saying it is offensive. Pine for the weather now.
:05:38. > :05:42.
:05:42. > :05:47.It will stay windy, a strong southerly wind, they should be some
:05:47. > :05:53.bright weather coming through and there could be highs of 15 a 16
:05:53. > :06:03.degrees. In the sunshine, it will be quite pleasant. The risk of
:06:03. > :06:07.
:06:07. > :06:10.severe gales across the Hebrides. At times this week, it has felt
:06:10. > :06:12.like being back in the 1980s. The leadership skills, policies and the
:06:12. > :06:14.legacy of Margaret Thatcher have all been fiercely debated. The
:06:14. > :06:18.confrontations will continue this week. Scottish Conservatives are
:06:18. > :06:21.angry the Greens are planning to hold a Holyrood debate on the Iron
:06:21. > :06:24.Lady the same day as her funeral. But what impact did living through
:06:24. > :06:33.the '80s have on people's day-to- day lives? Craig Hutchison has been
:06:33. > :06:36.talking to some of Thatcher's Children. Him in we, in Scotland, -
:06:36. > :06:40.- a week. This Scottish miracle did not
:06:40. > :06:44.happen by accident. A Margaret Thatcher wanted a harmonious
:06:44. > :06:50.relationship with Scotland but there was all too often discord --
:06:50. > :07:00.Margaret Thatcher. This mining museum is all that is left here,
:07:00. > :07:02.
:07:02. > :07:07.Janet is the widow of a minor and the daughter of a minor. -- miner.
:07:07. > :07:13.Broke and homes, families broken up, brothers and sisters that do not
:07:13. > :07:19.speak to each other. My youngest is seven and she realises now what we
:07:19. > :07:23.went through. But some people like that Director of the National
:07:23. > :07:27.Mining Museum in Scotland took inspiration from Margaret Thatcher.
:07:27. > :07:31.Be in born into a world where she was in power was incredibly
:07:32. > :07:36.significant because as a woman, there were no barriers, I could
:07:36. > :07:42.achieve what I wanted and it was down to hard work. She had an
:07:42. > :07:46.impressive work ethic and that is one of her greatest legacies.
:07:46. > :07:51.Thatcher is renowned for privatising several state owned
:07:51. > :07:57.industries and revolutionising the financial sector, including here in
:07:58. > :08:02.Scotland. In 1966, Brian Johnson started work for an investment fund
:08:02. > :08:07.management firm in Edinburgh and he remains with them today.
:08:07. > :08:11.privatisation introduced a new range of people into the market --
:08:11. > :08:18.privatisation. A lot of money came into the market from overseas
:08:18. > :08:23.investors, so the game changed from a cosy club into an international
:08:23. > :08:26.financial operation. She was transformational not just personal
:08:26. > :08:32.loan -- not just personally but to the country, and without her, I do
:08:32. > :08:39.not know what would have happened. Celebrations in September 1977,
:08:39. > :08:43.after the devolution referendum. The initial impact when she came
:08:43. > :08:48.into power or she said there would be no constitutional change in
:08:48. > :08:52.Scotland and I was disappointed by that. I saw what she was doing to
:08:52. > :08:57.heavy industry, she was decimating it and putting people on the dole
:08:57. > :09:00.and cutting back on social policy, I thought, this is not a Scot and I
:09:00. > :09:05.want to the event and we have to control this woman and not just
:09:05. > :09:11.take it. This coming week will be a chance to mourn a political icon
:09:11. > :09:18.for some, but the death of Margaret that has only opened up winced for
:09:18. > :09:22.others. We will visit the cemetery and the miners' Museum and be
:09:22. > :09:29.together, that is the week we will spend Wednesday, are not watching
:09:29. > :09:33.the television. -- is -- that is the way that.
:09:33. > :09:36.We have two guests in our Edinburgh studio. The first is Jim Gallagher.
:09:36. > :09:38.Jim is a research fellow at Nuffield College in Oxford. He has
:09:38. > :09:41.also advised the UK government on devolution strategy and was closely
:09:41. > :09:44.involved in the Calman Commission. His new book, Scotland's Choices,
:09:44. > :09:47.is due out next week. And we also have another writer and former
:09:47. > :09:51.Scottish Conservative MSP, Brian Monteith. He is also a PR
:09:51. > :09:57.consultant and policy director for Thinkscotland.org.
:09:58. > :10:01.Your book, it is out this week are not looking ahead to the referendum.
:10:01. > :10:06.We have had all week that Margaret Thatcher was the midwife of the
:10:06. > :10:14.Scottish Parliament and perhaps of independence, depending how the
:10:14. > :10:18.referendum goes. My personal view is that it probably would have
:10:18. > :10:25.happened anyway, some kind of democratic control over Scottish
:10:25. > :10:28.institutions in Scotland, but there is no doubt that Margaret Thatcher
:10:28. > :10:34.provided the political opportunity for many to see that devolution was
:10:34. > :10:40.the answer. You have advised Scottish governments, how much of
:10:40. > :10:43.her policies have filtered through today? Ken Clarke was speaking this
:10:43. > :10:50.week that the consensus now is of a market economy with a social
:10:50. > :10:54.conscience. There is no doubt she shifted to UK political discourse
:10:54. > :11:00.to the right and the big acknowledgement of that was Tony
:11:00. > :11:05.Blair in 1997 saying that there were things a new Labour government
:11:05. > :11:09.would bring the Indian on the back of the Thatcher era. There were
:11:09. > :11:16.things that were not going to change, notably all the
:11:17. > :11:22.privatisations, and that has set a rebalancing of the UK government.
:11:22. > :11:29.Thatcher's legacy, I suppose it depended if you lived in Balzers
:11:29. > :11:33.and all West Lothian? A do not think that is true. -- in Basildon.
:11:33. > :11:38.The problem for the Conservatives was that in regard to England, it
:11:38. > :11:44.came later in Scotland, so there were difficulties to get any
:11:44. > :11:49.electoral bounced from it. But she had over 700,000 Scottish people
:11:49. > :11:55.voting for her in predilections. She laughed about 25% of the
:11:55. > :12:00.Scottish electorate -- and she laughed. The idea she ruined the
:12:00. > :12:05.Conservative Party in Scotland is a myth. Many people had a council
:12:05. > :12:08.house they rented and that they were able to buy. So Scottish
:12:08. > :12:13.people embraced many of her policies but they found it
:12:13. > :12:18.difficult to embrace the lady herself. The debate this week has
:12:18. > :12:21.often been that change was needed and perhaps was coming, did the de-
:12:21. > :12:27.industrialisation have to be so rapid with nothing to replace a
:12:27. > :12:34.lost industries? Martin a miss said she was as a necessary Prime
:12:34. > :12:38.Minister and that is correct. Other prime ministers had avoided hard
:12:38. > :12:44.choices in the 1970s and because Scotland was so desperately reliant
:12:44. > :12:47.on heavy industry, there was so much more to do. So we needed more
:12:47. > :12:53.Thatcherism, we needed Scottish privatisations and more
:12:53. > :12:57.deregulation, and there was in resistance to that even in the
:12:57. > :13:02.Scottish Conservative Party and that made it difficult. The truth
:13:03. > :13:05.is that what the Scottish economy needed was Margaret Thatcher to
:13:05. > :13:12.beat the Scottish Secretary of State, but she had her hands tied
:13:12. > :13:16.with more at -- to be. The SNP and Thatcher pursuing policies such as
:13:16. > :13:22.low corporation tax, could we have independence, but in the style of
:13:22. > :13:28.Bacher? Plenty of people in the SNP are on the right. -- in the style
:13:28. > :13:33.of Margaret Thatcher. The SNP would say it is a left-of-centre party.
:13:33. > :13:41.But much of her inheritance has take -- has been taken up by the