:00:35. > :00:37.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:37. > :00:41.The so-called clowns had the last laugh in Thursday's local elections
:00:41. > :00:47.and now claim to be changing the shape of British politics. We'll be
:00:47. > :00:51.asking what next for Nigel Farage's UKIP. Where next for David Cameron?
:00:51. > :00:54.He's talking to a lot of men in white coats. Means they must all
:00:54. > :00:59.have gone to Eton. We'll get the thoughts of former party Chairman,
:00:59. > :01:02.David Davis. And how did young Edward fair?
:01:02. > :01:08.Average. And must do better, say some Labour folk. We'll be asking
:01:08. > :01:11.one of his biggest supporters why And coming up on Sunday Politics
:01:11. > :01:14.Scotland: What would Scotland stand to gain or lose on an international
:01:14. > :01:24.stage in the event of a "yes" vote in next year's independence
:01:24. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :31:10.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1785 seconds
:31:10. > :31:15.There are not many people with a coal miner in the Cabinet. The idea
:31:15. > :31:19.is that we get people in improvement in the country through
:31:19. > :31:25.the passion that we have. Let us see what we're in a couple of
:31:26. > :31:34.years' time. How did Labour fear? Not as well as they might have
:31:34. > :31:40.hoped. Labour picked up 291 council seats. That is only winning back
:31:40. > :31:46.what they lost in 2009. That was when Gordon Brown was very
:31:46. > :31:51.unpopular. That translated into gains in just two county councils.
:31:51. > :31:57.That was Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. They hoped to take
:31:57. > :32:05.Staffordshire but that was dashed. They fell well short of the 350
:32:05. > :32:10.seats predicted. Some said that they should have won on the basis
:32:10. > :32:19.of local by-election promises. The national vote share was 29%. That
:32:19. > :32:26.is 9% down from 2012. Only the same as their actual results in 2010.
:32:26. > :32:33.On this project at national share of the vote, Labour polled 29%.
:32:33. > :32:40.That is what Gordon Brown got in 2010. Those results in at 2010 were
:32:40. > :32:46.for the entire country. No elections in Scotland, only
:32:46. > :32:52.Anglesey in Wales, no elections in London that is what we have been
:32:52. > :33:00.those percentages today. We did remarkable things in Government
:33:00. > :33:06.between 2007 and 2010. But we lost tens of thousands of members. We
:33:06. > :33:12.lost thousands of activists. We lost thousands of councillors. We
:33:12. > :33:17.were hollowed out by 2010. We tried to rebuild. We persuaded new
:33:17. > :33:25.members to become activists and to stand for a council in shire
:33:25. > :33:34.elections were historically we have done very well. You gained 200 and
:33:34. > :33:38.windy -- 291 this week. You have just came back the losses that you
:33:38. > :33:43.lost in one of the biggest losses in Labour's history. You have to
:33:43. > :33:50.remember that you have to build back from the hollow out. We had no
:33:50. > :33:55.ministers and some of these areas. We recruited a new members. We lost
:33:55. > :33:59.MPs in 2010. We turned members into activists and persuaded them to
:33:59. > :34:05.stand for council elections and had remarkable gains. We won
:34:05. > :34:13.councillors in seats that we are looking for it in at 2015. We did
:34:13. > :34:20.well in Stevenage, Carlisle, Crawley, we were in Lincoln. We're
:34:20. > :34:29.wanting to win backing these areas in 2015. He did well in the South
:34:29. > :34:34.and you did reasonably well in others. -- you did well in some
:34:34. > :34:42.areas, but all West Sussex and some areas of the South you didn't even
:34:42. > :34:51.come second, you came third. With respect, Andrew, we have over run
:34:51. > :34:57.these councils. You came third! Look at Harlow. Look how we did in
:34:57. > :35:02.Stevenage. We won seats in Dorset, for God's sake, he's a shire
:35:02. > :35:10.council elections. For a so-called One nation party you came third in
:35:10. > :35:14.some of these areas. People have been recruited since May 2010 and
:35:14. > :35:21.have been persuaded to become active and stand and they have won.
:35:21. > :35:29.You didn't even do that well in the North. In 1981 you want lots under
:35:29. > :35:32.Michael Foot. Under Ed Miliband did not win a lot of those. If the
:35:32. > :35:39.lesson you are trying to teach me is that it is good to have
:35:39. > :35:44.superficial winds in county council elections, that is not true. --
:35:44. > :35:49.superficial winds. We have new policies that can persuade people
:35:49. > :35:55.to get lost trust in 2015. If you look at the results on Thursday,
:35:55. > :35:59.where we needed to do well, we did remarkably well. We would have
:35:59. > :36:03.liked to have won more seats, but to have this one term and have
:36:03. > :36:10.these games we're very pleased. Miliband claims that the centre is
:36:10. > :36:16.moving left and he is moving with it. These elections give no grounds
:36:16. > :36:26.for that belief. And it Ed Miliband you were out of touch with public
:36:26. > :36:31.opinion. The reality is, the vote for UKIP wasn't just moving right.
:36:31. > :36:36.You were four points ahead. there are elections in Scotland,
:36:36. > :36:40.Wales, and in London. I except that we have to do better than we are.
:36:40. > :36:45.But the reason that people voted for UKIP was because people think
:36:45. > :36:49.that politicians have the answer is there it for the problems that they
:36:49. > :36:54.face. They can see that their wages are not rising as fast as their
:36:54. > :36:57.inflation is going. We're persuading people who vote and do
:36:57. > :37:01.not vote that we can make a positive difference to their life.
:37:01. > :37:09.I think Ed Miliband has shown in the last two years that he can do
:37:09. > :37:18.that. Can you just clarify it, you will not offer an in or out
:37:18. > :37:23.referendum on Europe? We think... Will you offer a referendum between
:37:23. > :37:30.now and the next election? That is way above Mike pay grade to draft a
:37:30. > :37:37.manifesto for at 2015. I can say that in May 2013 will were not -
:37:37. > :37:44.but we will not be promising a referendum. I am asking if you will
:37:44. > :37:50.offer a referendum between now and the general election, yes or no?
:37:50. > :37:54.Above my pay grade. You're in the shadow Cabinet. I cannot see what
:37:54. > :38:00.will be in the manifesto, but I can see just like that that it -- David
:38:00. > :38:10.Cameron, it is foolish of Alex Salmond to say that he would have
:38:10. > :38:12.
:38:12. > :38:22.that referendum. It beats to uncertainty and it is madness.
:38:22. > :38:23.
:38:23. > :38:29.is 11:30pm. You're watching The Hello and welcome to Sunday
:38:29. > :38:32.Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:
:38:32. > :38:35.Scotland's role on the world stage - an independent voice in the
:38:35. > :38:42.community of nations or staying part of the UK power base, maybe
:38:42. > :38:46.with an increased role? We will debate what we could gain or lose.
:38:46. > :38:49.We will look at how Scotland can help its farmers.
:38:49. > :38:52.And enter the clowns and fruitcakes - UKIP have the last laugh as their
:38:52. > :38:56.political opponents eat their words, but could their English election
:38:56. > :38:59.earthquake be felt here in Scotland?
:38:59. > :39:03.There are just 500 days left until the big decision on Scotland's
:39:03. > :39:06.future. Much of the debate this week has been on international
:39:06. > :39:10.affairs. If it is a "no", Scotland would continue to be represented in
:39:10. > :39:13.the world as part of the UK. A "yes" vote would mean Scotland
:39:14. > :39:16.speaking for itself. Would Scotland lose its diplomatic clout or would
:39:17. > :39:26.it gain from having its own voice? Glenn Campbell has been taking
:39:27. > :39:30.
:39:30. > :39:38.soundings at the United Nations in Scotland is good at making a big
:39:38. > :39:43.noise in the Big Apple at least once a year. The annual Tartan Day
:39:43. > :39:49.parade brings a touch of Caledonian colour to 6th Avenue. But if there
:39:49. > :39:54.was a "yes" vote Scotland would need to make itself heard in New
:39:54. > :39:59.York. And that would be all year round. They would be a member of
:39:59. > :40:07.the United Nations. How would Scollan secure its own voice and
:40:07. > :40:14.its own fault here? Scotland would be very welcome at the un. It is
:40:15. > :40:19.highly in favour of self- determination. -- UN. If it is
:40:19. > :40:27.consensual. I do not see trouble in that, but it is a process that
:40:27. > :40:33.needs to be gone through. They should be backing to smooth the
:40:33. > :40:40.path towards a vote. Two-thirds of countries would need to support it.
:40:40. > :40:44.With the approval of other countries Scotland would become the
:40:44. > :40:52.world's 194th seed. It would sit next to Saudi Arabia and its
:40:52. > :40:58.nearest neighbour Senegal. That is where it would be alphabetically,
:40:58. > :41:02.but how would it established itself diplomatically? It would need to
:41:02. > :41:07.form alliances and partnerships, even the UK cannot do without those.
:41:07. > :41:12.The impact that the UK has would be lost to Scotland but Scotland would
:41:12. > :41:17.be speaking with the voice of Scotland. It would have to
:41:17. > :41:21.establish the impact through the performance of its individuals at
:41:21. > :41:31.the High Representative level, that's very important. So small
:41:31. > :41:37.countries need big hitters. The man who represents Europe's newest UN
:41:37. > :41:43.member is this man. We must recognise realities and to be
:41:43. > :41:49.realistic. We need to have in mind our national priorities and the
:41:49. > :41:57.strategies. Then you have to select. Any country can apply for a stint
:41:57. > :42:03.on the most powerful body. Here on the security panel, United Kingdom
:42:03. > :42:06.is one of a small number with a presence. Here at the veto
:42:06. > :42:11.decisions on War and Peace. In the event of Scottish independence, be
:42:11. > :42:16.UK Government says it would continue to occupy its seat here.
:42:16. > :42:23.But if that is legally accurate, we did also be politically acceptable
:42:24. > :42:28.to other countries? -- would it. That would depend on the nuclear
:42:28. > :42:33.submarine fleet being kept by David Cameron it in the event of Scottish
:42:33. > :42:38.independence. Foreign affairs committees say that the UK's place
:42:38. > :42:44.in the international order would be questioned. Otherwise this seasoned
:42:44. > :42:52.observer thinks that the UK would keep its clout. Some would say that
:42:52. > :43:02.Britain has changed, but in the case of the Soviet Union and Russia,
:43:02. > :43:02.
:43:02. > :43:07.Russia all these they became a smaller entity, -- all fiercely,
:43:07. > :43:13.but I think the President is there and sit. As long as you were the
:43:13. > :43:23.official holder of bats eat it is your has no matter what you sizes.
:43:23. > :43:26.
:43:26. > :43:32.-- of that seat. Mb -- in the event of independence Scotland would be
:43:32. > :43:40.the newest member. And it would be the challenge to make its own way
:43:40. > :43:43.in the world. Joining me now from our Edinburgh
:43:43. > :43:45.studio is the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Sir Mingis
:43:45. > :43:49.Campbell, a member of Westminster's Foreign Affairs Committee who co-
:43:49. > :43:51.wrote this week's report. And with me in the studio is one of the
:43:51. > :43:54.SNP's members of the European Parliament, Alyn Smith. He has
:43:54. > :44:02.lectured in Europe's capitals about the role of an independent Scotland
:44:02. > :44:09.on the world stage. Alyn Smith, it you recognise that the UK gets to
:44:09. > :44:16.inherit everything? Do you think Scotland would say it was a Co
:44:16. > :44:21.equal state? I think there is a matter of debate but we are no new
:44:22. > :44:26.thing in regards the United Nations. We are also an ancient democracy
:44:26. > :44:30.and nation. We are re-establishing ourselves within the world
:44:30. > :44:34.environment. This is as getting into the United Nations as Scotland,
:44:34. > :44:41.as ourselves. When you talk about Scotland becoming independent and
:44:41. > :44:49.having a long history of being an independent nation, the agreement
:44:50. > :44:55.was that we were Co people states in the beginning. Scotland is the
:44:55. > :44:59.new entity as regards the United Nations. We're fighting for that in
:44:59. > :45:06.the referendum. The cities of the UK in the eyes of other people as a
:45:06. > :45:10.matter for the UK, not us. He seems quite relaxed about the United
:45:10. > :45:16.Nations. How do you think it would proceed? But his effort was to
:45:16. > :45:21.become independence. I think everybody is quite relaxed about
:45:21. > :45:25.successful membership of the United Nations for Scotland. The body of
:45:25. > :45:29.opinion expressed in that package seems pretty clear that the rest of
:45:29. > :45:36.the United Kingdom would maintain the position of a permanent member
:45:36. > :45:41.of the Security Council with that important right of veto. But I do
:45:41. > :45:50.not think the United Nations would be the problem. As our report
:45:50. > :45:55.represents areas contrary reports to the SNP. Where there might be a
:45:55. > :46:03.fast track for or negotiation, there is no certainty that there
:46:03. > :46:12.would be a fast track for Accession. Many people in the business
:46:12. > :46:18.community believe it could be damaging to Scotland's interests. A
:46:18. > :46:23.report is based on written evidence. You will find it all on page 62.
:46:23. > :46:28.Some very distinguished professors of international relations and Lord
:46:28. > :46:34.who came and gave witness. Including Jeremy Greenstock who we
:46:34. > :46:43.saw in that package a moment or two ago. Let us stick with Pete UN
:46:43. > :46:48.right now. -- with the UN right now. Do you not think it could provoke a
:46:48. > :46:54.groundswell of opinion at the UN that the Security Council should be
:46:54. > :47:00.reformed? France and Britain -- and the UK might need to give that seat
:47:01. > :47:07.up. The question of reform of the Security Council has been on the
:47:07. > :47:12.agenda since 1988. It never gets to the top of the agenda. A new
:47:12. > :47:16.Security Council hat -- should have at 23 or 22 members. Any
:47:16. > :47:21.constitutional change in the Charter of the United Nations would
:47:21. > :47:25.depend on the United Kingdom's agreement. It remains a member of
:47:25. > :47:28.the Security Council, so we do not see agreement being reached that
:47:28. > :47:34.would have the effect of excluding the United Kingdom from that
:47:34. > :47:42.position. Looking at the SNP's position, despite the talk about
:47:42. > :47:48.Iraq and so-called legal war its -- wore as, giving that up would mean
:47:48. > :47:55.that the rest of the UK would not be able to match what the rest of
:47:55. > :47:59.the UK does anyway. We would be able to set our own priorities and
:47:59. > :48:03.articulate the more on the world stage. The idea that the UK is also
:48:03. > :48:08.acting in our interests is not the case, I do not think. In Brussels
:48:08. > :48:13.and see that the UK line and attitude is markedly different to
:48:13. > :48:16.her Scotland would do this. Just last week Our Home Secretary, and
:48:16. > :48:23.she is Our Home Secretary, flirted with the idea of getting rid of
:48:23. > :48:29.human rights. The idea that the UK it is representing, I do not think
:48:29. > :48:34.it is a failed state, but I do think we could do it better. Do you
:48:34. > :48:38.think it could be done better with than the United Kingdom? The report
:48:38. > :48:43.suggests an increased role for Scotland on the international stage
:48:43. > :48:47.but remembering -- but remaining part of the United Kingdom. I would
:48:47. > :48:51.say that that is delusional. International relations is binary,
:48:51. > :48:55.you are a member state or you were not. You can do all sorts of things
:48:55. > :48:59.with devolution, but the fact is, door at the top table or you were
:48:59. > :49:03.not. The whole point about independence is that we get to set
:49:03. > :49:10.our priorities and articulate them in various corners of the world.
:49:10. > :49:19.The UN needs reform, of Eastleigh, but we cannot put forward any of
:49:19. > :49:23.these points as anything but an independent state. With Labour, or
:49:23. > :49:29.Liberal Democrats and the SNP have increased the role of Scotland on
:49:29. > :49:33.the world stage. Absolutely and that will continue. Scotland has
:49:33. > :49:38.always been distinctive. But since the reforms of 1999, we have been
:49:38. > :49:41.able to give voice to that different politics. The more that
:49:41. > :49:47.continues and the more different we become, if we're on the right path.
:49:47. > :49:52.This is pretty much unstoppable. How much of this we did you have
:49:52. > :49:58.been putting that point in about increasing the role of Scotland's
:49:58. > :50:03.voice through the prism of the UK diplomatic affairs, a kind of
:50:03. > :50:05.federal structure when it comes to the international stage? I chaired
:50:05. > :50:11.a commission on behalf of the Liberal Democrats which made
:50:11. > :50:14.exactly that point. It was about the possibility of a federal
:50:14. > :50:19.relationship but when Scotland and the rest of United Kingdom. And
:50:19. > :50:29.also the possibility of an overall federal solution for the United
:50:29. > :50:29.
:50:30. > :50:35.Kingdom's. But the reference to the board has, they were heavily
:50:35. > :50:42.affected to by the introduction of quotas. That is in America. It was
:50:42. > :50:46.all problem about cashmere goods. The reason that that was headed off
:50:46. > :50:54.was because the United Kingdom was able to go to the European Union
:50:54. > :51:00.and the strength of both bodies at the World Trade Organisation made
:51:00. > :51:10.sure that Scotland did not suffer - - which it would have done much
:51:10. > :51:33.
:51:33. > :51:40.Let's that put that 0.2 Alan Smith. How would Scotland Act on the world
:51:40. > :51:48.stage? You always have to select your key issues but it is a very
:51:48. > :51:53.crowded marketplace. Look at the way we have been able to lead by
:51:53. > :52:01.example in terms of leading -- setting world leading climate
:52:01. > :52:05.change targets. You set your priorities and build alliances. She
:52:05. > :52:10.speaks about the EU intervening on or a half but we still have that as
:52:10. > :52:16.the Scottish member of the European Union. That is about what our
:52:16. > :52:21.priorities are and how we determine them and articulate them. Many
:52:21. > :52:24.smaller countries than us around Europe. Talk to them about
:52:24. > :52:30.independence and the just understand it. What we're going to
:52:30. > :52:35.debate and vote on and 2014 is that we can do this better. I do not
:52:35. > :52:39.think the UK is a failed state but we could do an awful lot better.
:52:39. > :52:46.could do a lot better than smaller states could move more quickly and
:52:46. > :52:50.focus on key issues? You will not be surprised to hear me say, not
:52:50. > :52:59.for the first time, that I think we are better together, but I think it
:53:00. > :53:09.might give us the influence of a state like Cyprus or Slovenia,
:53:10. > :53:11.
:53:11. > :53:19.which I think detracts from the influence of the United Kingdom.
:53:19. > :53:22.The United Kingdom has a very sophisticated network of posts and
:53:22. > :53:27.ambassadors around the world. Scotland would not have access to
:53:27. > :53:32.that. When you take the issue of something like Scotch whisky and
:53:32. > :53:38.the importance of ensuring that is not subject to tariffs which make
:53:38. > :53:44.it difficult to export, then it is that over all diplomatic influence
:53:44. > :53:53.and a nationally which will serve us best. It will be a long time
:53:53. > :53:55.before it reaches the peak status of Whitehall. Thank you both.
:53:55. > :53:58.Scottish farmers have been left suffering by the atrocious weather
:53:58. > :54:01.conditions The NFU say almost 34,000 dead sheep had to be
:54:01. > :54:04.collected from the hills after the winter storms. This comes after the
:54:04. > :54:14.miserable, wet summer. As Laura Maxwell reports, a �6 million aid
:54:14. > :54:14.
:54:14. > :54:21.package has been announced by the Scottish government.
:54:21. > :54:27.March 2012, and spring was picture- perfect. Temperatures soared to 23
:54:27. > :54:32.Celsius. March 2013 was a different picture with blizzards bringing
:54:33. > :54:38.down phone lines and cutting of entire communities four days.
:54:38. > :54:44.got up to another group just further up... Its in the claim
:54:44. > :54:52.clear of their where other victims were animals buried alive.
:54:52. > :54:58.Thousands of young lambs and sheep were lost. We are unable to get to
:54:58. > :55:04.most of these chic. My losses and in the region of 200 or 250 lambs.
:55:04. > :55:09.It is huge financially. Even before the snow thought, the Government
:55:09. > :55:15.promised have a million pounds to help remove dead livestock from the
:55:15. > :55:21.hills, and this week �6 million worth of aid has been announced
:55:21. > :55:29.targeted at those affected by the recent snow. We can meet in the
:55:29. > :55:32.coming days to look at how we can help the rest of the sector. The
:55:32. > :55:37.cost may be into tens of millions of pounds but we're still measuring
:55:37. > :55:43.the cost of the impact of the weather. It comes at the end of
:55:43. > :55:48.what has been a very difficult year. There was bricked in the Western
:55:48. > :55:54.Isles, sandstorms have covered fields, and in the Borders flooding.
:55:54. > :55:59.The weather has piled on the pressure. For most, the continual
:55:59. > :56:06.rain has been the overriding problem ruining many crops last
:56:06. > :56:13.year and making sewing this year very tricky. It has been totally
:56:13. > :56:17.impossible here to so any cereals. You always hope it will be a good
:56:17. > :56:23.year next year and that keep you going but it invariably is not. You
:56:23. > :56:31.are always hoping for. 2013 has been at devastating year for some
:56:31. > :56:35.of Scotland's livestock farmers and it is not looking much better for
:56:35. > :56:40.their arable counterparts. It is a waiting game to see if it will warm
:56:40. > :56:43.up and the rain will stop for warm enough for Scotland's farmers to
:56:44. > :56:51.see any signs of growth. I'm now joined in the studio by Nigel
:56:51. > :56:57.Miller, President of the National Farmers Union in Scotland. You are
:56:57. > :57:02.a farmer yourself, what has it been a like for you? You a piece was a
:57:02. > :57:09.very good overview of the climate and this has been that the Perfect
:57:09. > :57:13.Storm but it has gone on for I year and it has impacted on every sector.
:57:13. > :57:19.We did a survey in the winter and even then we knew it was bad,
:57:19. > :57:26.probably more than 80% of farmers had 20% less fodder than usual and
:57:26. > :57:34.when it came to winter crops, 30% had not managed to sow their usual
:57:34. > :57:41.quota. That was not a good position to be in with money running out. We
:57:41. > :57:47.had to renegotiate. A pretty difficult year and then going into
:57:47. > :57:50.2013, probably the coldest March on records. They're really
:57:50. > :57:59.overwhelming storm for a couple of days and then a difficult April as
:57:59. > :58:02.well. 2013 will not be a good year whatever we do now. We heard in the
:58:02. > :58:08.report the �6 million aid package from the Scottish government. How
:58:08. > :58:12.will you ensure that is targeted at the people that need it most?
:58:12. > :58:19.a lifeline and hopefully a bridge to help people get to the summer
:58:19. > :58:23.weather. The figures and the last few days say that of a 700 million
:58:23. > :58:28.has been stepped out in the UK terms, so it is not a huge amount
:58:29. > :58:33.of money but we think if we can target those businesses and farmers
:58:33. > :58:38.that have taken significant hits, and this is the kind of farm that
:58:38. > :58:41.might have lost 30% of their potential production, we can pause
:58:41. > :58:51.the spiralled downwards to give them a platform to become
:58:51. > :58:55.stabilised. These businesses will not begin to recover until 2014.
:58:55. > :59:05.the �6 million proportionate to what Scottish farmers contribute?
:59:05. > :59:07.
:59:07. > :59:12.In many ways, we have a very close relationship with the land. A big
:59:12. > :59:19.part of the economy, we underpin the biggest manufacturing sector,
:59:19. > :59:23.food, and that generates millions of exports. It is very important
:59:23. > :59:26.and I think the Government has recognised that importance and the
:59:26. > :59:32.partnership the Government has with the food sector and farming shows
:59:32. > :59:39.how important it is to maintain, not just for food security but also
:59:39. > :59:45.to develop our industry and exports. It has been a sad and difficult
:59:45. > :59:50.time for farmers, perhaps difficult to detach yourself emotionally, but
:59:50. > :59:57.it is heavily subsidised. Many in this these would look on and say
:59:57. > :00:01.you received a lot of government support, is that there? This is the
:00:02. > :00:07.comet that comes up fairly often and the reality is the whole of
:00:07. > :00:12.Europe supports us quite heavily. They do it in different ways and it
:00:12. > :00:17.is about underpinning a core part of production. It is one thing that
:00:17. > :00:23.is vital for the whole of life and we are looking at doubling food
:00:23. > :00:27.needs over the next 20 years and that is extraordinary. Unless we
:00:27. > :00:31.look after the basic structure, we are going to find that food
:00:31. > :00:37.security becomes not just something we talk about but something that
:00:37. > :00:43.actually impacts on us every day. The Scottish government is setting
:00:43. > :00:47.up a working group with the industry. What might be discuss?
:00:47. > :00:55.That will be on Wednesday and it will be about targeting money to
:00:55. > :00:58.actually identify the ad is we know that the storms hit. We are also
:00:58. > :01:04.looking at other parts of Scotland where we know there have been
:01:04. > :01:10.significant issues. The mental health of farmers as critical as
:01:10. > :01:15.well? I have had a lot of members on the phone and these sort of
:01:15. > :01:20.losses are not easy to handle on the last year has not been easy.
:01:20. > :01:24.With the financial pressure, it is not easy and one of the telling
:01:24. > :01:29.factors is knowing that it is difficult going out and having to
:01:29. > :01:39.work until 10pm at night and being unsure. This package is a lifeline
:01:39. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:45.for people like that. Now time for the news.
:01:45. > :01:50.Nigel Evans, the deputy Speaker of the House of Commons has said that
:01:50. > :01:54.allegations of sexual assault against him are completely false.
:01:54. > :02:01.He was released on bail last night after being questioned by police
:02:01. > :02:04.for several hours. Nigel Evans was questioned until
:02:04. > :02:09.late last night by police and emerged from his home this morning
:02:09. > :02:13.to a make this statement. I was interviewed by the police
:02:13. > :02:18.concerning two complaints, one of which dates back four years, made
:02:19. > :02:23.by two people who are well known to each other and who until yesterday
:02:23. > :02:28.I regarded as friends. The complaints are completely false and
:02:28. > :02:33.they cannot understand why they have been made especially as I have
:02:33. > :02:38.continued to socialise with one as recent play as last week. He was
:02:38. > :02:41.arrested yesterday and questioned on suspicion of sexual assault. The
:02:41. > :02:47.alleged victims are said to be men in their twenties and he was
:02:47. > :02:54.released on bail. He was selected as MP for Ribble Valley back in
:02:54. > :03:00.1992. He was elected as deputy Speaker in 2010. In the same year,
:03:00. > :03:02.he came out as gay saying he did not want another light. His
:03:02. > :03:11.colleague Philip Harman said a decision would have to be made
:03:11. > :03:15.about his future. We should treat people as innocent until proven
:03:15. > :03:20.guilty but it is difficult to carry out a high profile role under the
:03:20. > :03:26.scrutiny. He says he will not be standing down and says it is
:03:26. > :03:30.business as usual. The chairman of the BBC Trust has
:03:30. > :03:37.rejected calls for a separate inquiry into the activities of
:03:37. > :03:43.Stuart Hall at the BBC. He has admitted indecently assaulting 13
:03:43. > :03:46.girls from the 1960s until the 1980s. Lord Patten said that
:03:46. > :03:56.concerns about his behaviour could be dealt with by an inquiry already
:03:56. > :03:59.
:03:59. > :04:04.been carried out by the BBC. Plainly, there was something about
:04:04. > :04:09.the celebrity culture in the 1960s and 1980s which meant people turned
:04:10. > :04:13.a blind eye to behaviour that was thoroughly unpleasant.
:04:13. > :04:19.Syrian state television said the scientific research centre has been
:04:19. > :04:26.hit by an Israeli missile strike. People in the area report hearing a
:04:26. > :04:31.massive explosion over night. What more do we know about this. There
:04:31. > :04:35.is very little hard information but what we can say fairly clearly is
:04:35. > :04:43.that there was at least one enormous explosion on the north-
:04:43. > :04:48.west edge of the city of Damascus. That is shown in footage posted on
:04:48. > :04:58.the internet by activists. The question is what was actually hit.
:04:58. > :05:07.The Syrian regime are saying it was a technical research institute.
:05:07. > :05:12.They are saying that the different kinds of targets were hit. That
:05:12. > :05:19.would be a bit surprising because Israel does not want to get
:05:19. > :05:23.involved in the conflict. They want to prevent arms from being handed
:05:23. > :05:29.over are coming through it and ran. What they're seeing off the record
:05:29. > :05:34.is there going for rockets and missiles that there may what to
:05:34. > :05:38.pass to his bluff. We are in the dark over what was actually hit.
:05:38. > :05:42.There is duty showing what they say were targets there but it includes
:05:42. > :05:52.things like chicken farms and some installations were not shown very
:05:52. > :06:03.
:06:03. > :06:08.A former UK ambassador has told this programme that Scotland would
:06:08. > :06:15.be welcome as a member state to the United Nations but it would have to
:06:15. > :06:19.find its own way. Jeremy Greenstock said that the impact would be lost
:06:19. > :06:24.to an independent Scotland that it has with the UK. It would be to
:06:24. > :06:29.form alliances. The impact that the UK has would be lost to Scotland
:06:29. > :06:33.but Scotland would be speaking with the voice of Scotland, it would
:06:33. > :06:38.have the Scottish label. Impact would have to be established
:06:38. > :06:46.through the performance of its individuals at a high
:06:46. > :06:53.representative level. Two women died in a car crash yesterday.
:06:53. > :06:58.They died at the scene of this car crash near Ely. One boy and one man
:06:58. > :07:02.were also travelling by a car or and taken to hospital with serious
:07:02. > :07:07.injuries. The boy was then taken to the Southern General hospital by
:07:07. > :07:12.air ambulance in Glasgow. There were three games in the a SPL this
:07:12. > :07:22.afternoon. Celtic's game is getting under way
:07:22. > :07:29.
:07:29. > :07:34.now., Nick play host to Hibernian. It will be cloudy across western
:07:34. > :07:39.Scotland. Rain will be light and patchy but become more persistent
:07:39. > :07:45.two words North Argyll later. The best of the sunshine is in eastern
:07:45. > :07:51.Scotland. Here we will see the highest temperatures, up to 18 or
:07:51. > :08:01.19 Celsius. It is quite mild but also breezy especially along the
:08:01. > :08:03.
:08:03. > :08:06.West coast. We will be back at 650 Thanks, Graham.
:08:06. > :08:08.It was the revenge of the "clowns and fruitcakes", as UKIP's
:08:08. > :08:10.political opponents had characterised them. A powerful
:08:10. > :08:13.showing at this week's English local government elections means
:08:13. > :08:16.the party's influence is on the increase, down south at least. But
:08:16. > :08:24.what about the indirect impact in Scotland of UKIP's success story?
:08:24. > :08:30.Our political correspondent Niall This one celebrated, the
:08:30. > :08:34.Westminster mainstream were drowning their sorrows. UKIP's
:08:34. > :08:40.success made Nigel Farage the toast of his party. It left the Tories
:08:40. > :08:44.and Lib Dems crying into their beer. Instalment date struggle to make an
:08:44. > :08:52.impression. -- in Scotland they have struggled to make an
:08:52. > :08:56.impression. UKIP regularly finished last, in Edinburgh one of their
:08:56. > :09:02.candidates did as well as this pink when. Does that mean that Scottish
:09:02. > :09:12.people are up more pro-Europe than those down south? I don't think
:09:12. > :09:12.
:09:12. > :09:18.there's the same antipathy to words the EU. We're not so worried about
:09:18. > :09:24.the loss of English identity. There is an anti-European view in
:09:24. > :09:29.Scotland but it is not one that UKIP are able to tap into. They
:09:29. > :09:32.want independent from Europe, not independence in Europe. They say
:09:32. > :09:36.that their numbers are at increasing its column because of
:09:36. > :09:40.disillusionment with Alex Salmond and the SNP. He would like people
:09:40. > :09:47.to think that we're going to govern our own country, but he is going to
:09:47. > :09:54.move directly under the heel of Brussels. People are fed up with
:09:54. > :09:59.the diktat from Brussels. That is coming across. You kept could do
:09:59. > :10:05.drive the Tories of their seats in Europe in the next elections.
:10:05. > :10:10.UKIP. We're confident that our support as well stand by us and we
:10:10. > :10:13.are working hard to keep our supporters. We have heard about the
:10:13. > :10:17.threat from UKIP in Scotland for a number of years, it has not
:10:17. > :10:22.materialised. We believe we will keep her supporters by giving them
:10:22. > :10:25.the best deals for Scotland. Despite strong results in local
:10:25. > :10:34.elections in England and Wales on Thursday, but party seems farther
:10:34. > :10:44.than ever to getting a foothold here in Holyrood. David Cameron's
:10:44. > :10:44.
:10:44. > :10:49.commitment to hold a referendum on EU is widely seen as a reason to
:10:49. > :10:58.vote for Conservatives. It is clear that David Cameron and a Tories are
:10:58. > :11:00.running scared of UKIP. UKIP are all irrelevant thoughts to Scotland.
:11:00. > :11:05.They are dragging Scollan to the exit door rope Europe whether we
:11:05. > :11:15.want to go there are not, that is the Conservatives. The only
:11:15. > :11:20.Scotland has choice is by choosing independence. Nigel Briers has an
:11:20. > :11:29.image as an antidote to be elite of Westminster. So far that has not
:11:29. > :11:37.won many votes from the North of the border. But scholars place in
:11:37. > :11:40.the EU could still habits time cold. -- Scotland's.
:11:40. > :11:42.I'm now joined here in the studio by Dr Nicola McEwen of Edinburgh
:11:42. > :11:50.University's political department and the political commentator, Iain
:11:50. > :11:55.McWhirter is in Edinburgh. What evidence is there to say that
:11:55. > :12:00.Scotland is more pro-European? Scotland is not a nation of
:12:00. > :12:04.Europhiles but there is about more it pro-European feeling here.
:12:04. > :12:10.was recent evidence from a poll that asked exactly how it Scottish
:12:10. > :12:15.people would vote if a referendum on the UK happened over whether to
:12:15. > :12:19.withdraw from Europe or not. A comfortable majority favoured
:12:19. > :12:24.staying within the European Union. That is different from polls that
:12:24. > :12:30.take place in England. Do you agree with that? In the Sunday Herald
:12:30. > :12:34.today UKIP say that it is a problem in that Scotland's big cities. It
:12:34. > :12:39.is not. It is nothing like the antipathy towards immigration in
:12:39. > :12:45.some areas south of the border. Similarly, there is not the
:12:45. > :12:48.opposition to Europe. You do not have the transmission belts but
:12:48. > :12:52.that sort of Euro-scepticism in Scotland because the Tories are
:12:52. > :12:58.largely politically a relevant here and UKIP has made no progress
:12:58. > :13:02.whatsoever. It will upset the balance if you like of the whole
:13:02. > :13:07.debate over independence in Scotland, because the presumption
:13:07. > :13:15.this father has always been, you heard it from Sir Menzies Campbell
:13:15. > :13:21.earlier in this programme, that the SNP would damage staying in the EU,
:13:21. > :13:26.Scotland might be thrown out as a consequence of a voting "yes" in
:13:26. > :13:35.the referendum. But Scotland could find itself out of the EU by
:13:35. > :13:40.remaining with the UK. In the 2014, a few months before the referendum,
:13:40. > :13:47.we had the European elections. On this showing, UKIP are going to win
:13:47. > :13:56.it. England are put at just lurching to the right. -- are
:13:56. > :14:00.perhaps. I think UKIP will do well in the EU elections, it is their
:14:00. > :14:05.turf. So close to the referendum it will have an impact, but it is hard
:14:05. > :14:11.to see how it will have an impact. A lot depends on the parties that
:14:11. > :14:16.lose as a result of that. If a Labour Party holds up then it could
:14:16. > :14:20.make a UK election victory for them in at 2015 a little more likely.
:14:20. > :14:27.That potentially makes the union more attractive. On the other hand,
:14:28. > :14:35.if all of the mainstream parties do badly at UKIP's expense, the union
:14:35. > :14:40.looks less attractive for Scottish people. If Labour do well in people
:14:40. > :14:44.were think that the Conservatives will not be in power for too long.
:14:44. > :14:48.Could that have an influence in the referendum? It could but I think we
:14:48. > :14:51.will hear some quite Euro-sceptic noises from Labour in the next few
:14:51. > :14:57.months as well. They realise they cannot afford to stand aside from
:14:57. > :15:03.what is quite clearly a tide of opinion south of the border. Not
:15:03. > :15:07.only in terms of Europe, also on welfare reform, immigration, things
:15:07. > :15:11.like a gay marriage. We're seeing political culture south of the
:15:11. > :15:15.border moving quite rapidly towards the right. We have always -- we
:15:15. > :15:20.have already had Theresa May discussing that human rights might
:15:20. > :15:24.need to be suspended. We already have tighter immigration policies
:15:24. > :15:29.coming under way. And there is also this welfare reform agenda which
:15:29. > :15:33.has not been popular north of the border. Looking at this question a
:15:33. > :15:39.of Europe, perhaps we in Scotland ignore it slightly because we're so
:15:39. > :15:43.focused on independence. Yes, the focus on the you low mac has so far
:15:43. > :15:51.been about whether an independent Scotland would be entitled to join
:15:51. > :15:55.so far. -- EU. But this does take us on two issues of substance. If
:15:55. > :15:58.we look at the UK withdrawing from the European Union, that would
:15:58. > :16:04.create enormous challenges for Scotland whether it was independent
:16:04. > :16:07.or not. If you were looking at a vision of the independence that in
:16:07. > :16:12.bed sit in the British Isles, looking at a shared labour market
:16:12. > :16:16.and currency, that creates really big difficulties if you were
:16:16. > :16:23.looking at being within the European Union but the rest of the
:16:23. > :16:28.UK not being. What you make of that? Are we ignoring the European
:16:28. > :16:32.question to her detriment? I do not think it is being a ignored. Most
:16:32. > :16:36.of the last 12 months Europe has been the dominant issue in the
:16:36. > :16:39.referendum campaign. That is ever since Alex Salmond suggested that
:16:39. > :16:44.he had legal advice saying that Scotland would remain as a
:16:44. > :16:53.succession state. That was not quite the case. That is a different
:16:53. > :16:58.aspect, though. A different aspect from what? The debate about Alex
:16:58. > :17:04.Salmon to and the regulation on the Europe and so on. That is ignoring
:17:04. > :17:07.the UK debate on Europe. I am saying that that is how the you
:17:07. > :17:13.appear debate has been conducted north of the border. Clearly the
:17:13. > :17:19.UKIP advance is going to hold to that very significantly. As far as
:17:19. > :17:24.the case for Scotland remaining in de EU, most Scott was should people
:17:24. > :17:30.probably go along with that. -- most Scottish people. I do not
:17:30. > :17:35.think there is a huge demand for Scotland to be removed. There was
:17:35. > :17:38.an issue over fisheries which still continues to rankle in the North
:17:38. > :17:41.East but I do not think it is anything like the issue it was
:17:41. > :17:46.before. It is not because Scottish people are hugely enthusiastic
:17:46. > :17:50.about Europe, it is just that you look at opinion polls only about 6%
:17:50. > :17:54.of Scottish people see it as the most important issue in any
:17:55. > :18:03.election. It does not have the same political resonance as you see
:18:03. > :18:06.south of the border. We only to leave it there.
:18:06. > :18:09.Now, a leading Scottish QC has set out a number of proposals to
:18:09. > :18:11.radically reform the Scottish justice system. Writing in The Sun,
:18:11. > :18:14.Derek Ogg says his blueprint is controversial but it will help
:18:14. > :18:17.ensure fairness. He wants to see the three traditional Scottish
:18:17. > :18:20.verdicts - guilty, not guilty, not proven - replaced with just proven
:18:20. > :18:23.or not proven. Rationally, he says, a juror can not say "not guilty".
:18:23. > :18:29.The most they can say is that beyond reasonable doubt a case has
:18:29. > :18:33.been proved or not proven. There is a suggestion to cut the size of
:18:33. > :18:37.juries from the present 15 members down to 10. The majority verdict
:18:37. > :18:40.would be kept at 8 though. Jurors would also be allowed to access the
:18:40. > :18:42.internet as they have no legal training and should be allowed to
:18:42. > :18:52.research the subject matter. His biggest fear is that corroboration
:18:52. > :18:58.
:18:58. > :19:04.could be axed. The QC says it is an The Scottish Government have given
:19:04. > :19:10.us this response. We welcome any plans to improve the efficiency of
:19:10. > :19:13.Scotland's Court, we are trying to create a more modern justice system
:19:13. > :19:22.that is fair and efficient. Joining me now in the studio is
:19:22. > :19:29.Derek Ogg QC. It is a controversial move. Is it fair for someone to
:19:29. > :19:35.move out of court when they have had a not guilty verdict, not
:19:35. > :19:41.proven leaves a cloud of suspicion. Not really. I really think we all
:19:41. > :19:45.know that we're not proven. If everyone understands that that
:19:45. > :19:51.means not guilty, been everybody does understand that if they walk
:19:51. > :19:56.out of the Crown Prosecution and the Crown Prosecution has not
:19:56. > :20:00.maintained their case against them, there are not guilty. The changing
:20:00. > :20:03.the meaning of these verdicts is that explains better to a jury what
:20:03. > :20:08.they're there to do. There are not there to look into somebody's heart
:20:08. > :20:13.or conscience, they cannot do that. There are not there to remember
:20:13. > :20:17.what happened, they were not there. But the at their to say that the
:20:17. > :20:21.case that has been brought in front of them, I be satisfied?
:20:21. > :20:29.Prosecutors are being told to prove that beyond reasonable doubt. Has
:20:29. > :20:38.that been done? It easy for it proved orators not proved. -- it is
:20:38. > :20:45.either a proved or it is not proved. What about lowering the number of
:20:45. > :20:53.Jura as? He would save �0.5 million simply in administrative costs to
:20:53. > :20:59.start with. A smaller number gives that number more time to talk about
:20:59. > :21:03.issues. It simply is a more manageable number. I would say in
:21:03. > :21:07.Scotland, if you go to the beginning of the jury system around
:21:07. > :21:17.the 12th century. There was no fixed number of forgeries then. It
:21:17. > :21:29.
:21:29. > :21:37.was always just locals who were a Why are you making these comments
:21:38. > :21:43.now do? The reason I make the comments now it is because of a
:21:43. > :21:50.number of things combining together. The idea we can do away with
:21:50. > :21:55.corroboration which is the biggest safeguard in Scots law. There is no
:21:55. > :22:01.duty in minor cases but still in serious cases. The corroboration
:22:01. > :22:06.issue is there. The case with Chris Huhne where the dewy word this
:22:06. > :22:11.charged because the asked too many questions which the lawyer said
:22:11. > :22:16.where rather silly questions. They were mocked for wanting to make
:22:16. > :22:23.inquiry. The jury system is valuable and important to us but we
:22:23. > :22:27.want to bring it up to date and modernise it. That includes having
:22:27. > :22:31.access to the Internet, even a website dedicated to the particular
:22:31. > :22:35.trial they are involved in, and what are some of the consequences
:22:35. > :22:43.of Scots law and self defence and provocation and acting together
:22:43. > :22:51.with others. Briefly, do you have support from legal colleagues?
:22:51. > :22:54.There is an appetite amongst the legal profession for reform.
:22:54. > :22:57.Now in a moment, we'll be discussing what's making news in
:22:57. > :23:07.politics at Holyrood this week and next, but first, let's take a look
:23:07. > :23:08.
:23:08. > :23:11.back at the Week in 60 seconds. Three soldiers from the Royal
:23:11. > :23:17.Regiment of Scotland where killed in Afghanistan went a vehicle was
:23:17. > :23:21.hit by a roadside bomb. Westminster's Foreign Affairs
:23:21. > :23:28.Committee say the UK's international status would suffer
:23:28. > :23:30.if Scotland became independent. Scotland's most senior prosecutor
:23:30. > :23:35.criticised the UK Business Secretary Vince Cable after he
:23:35. > :23:38.called for a quick decision on the prosecution of former bosses are at
:23:38. > :23:41.the Royal Bank of Scotland. The Scotch Whisky Association lost
:23:41. > :23:49.a legal challenge against government plans to introduce
:23:49. > :23:56.minimum unit price things. decision to appeal should not come
:23:56. > :24:01.up as a surprise. They should respect the democratic decision of
:24:01. > :24:06.these Scottish Parliament. Douglas Alexander said Scotland
:24:06. > :24:10.needs to find ways to disagree with it being disagreeable ahead of the
:24:10. > :24:16.independence referendum. That was the week that was. Let's
:24:16. > :24:19.now focus on the big stories and check out the week ahead.
:24:19. > :24:29.This week we have Peter McMahon from the Scotsman and the
:24:29. > :24:31.
:24:31. > :24:36.journalist and author Kirsty Scott. Thank you for joining us. Updike
:24:36. > :24:46.issue this week has been the on line rolling story after Susan
:24:46. > :24:47.
:24:47. > :24:53.Carmen was heavily criticised online. A story here about
:24:53. > :24:58.nationalism and fascism in Scotland on Sunday. For this is a very
:24:58. > :25:02.worrying that element. To have a debate in Scotland about
:25:02. > :25:07.independence and the constitutional future, it has to be conducted in a
:25:07. > :25:15.way that allows people to express strong views but where they are not
:25:15. > :25:25.vilified on either side. The point was made by Fiona Hyslop that if
:25:25. > :25:25.
:25:25. > :25:28.you mention Scotland on Sunday, up a column today praises Douglas
:25:28. > :25:33.Alexander and cost are exactly the same thing. We have to have that
:25:33. > :25:39.and we have to have a civilised debate and cannot have trolling on
:25:39. > :25:45.end the side. Both sides are keen to point out that their victims are
:25:45. > :25:50.of this kind of behaviour. Most it is not fair to say that most of it
:25:50. > :25:55.is coming from the nationalist side. Nicholas Budgen said she had death
:25:55. > :26:00.threats so it is getting to a worrying level. It has always been
:26:00. > :26:05.there but it has built. It was a pretty bad couple of weeks for the
:26:06. > :26:09.Yes campaign in terms of currency and foreign affairs. A lot of
:26:09. > :26:14.issues they were on the back but about and he tends to see then that
:26:14. > :26:22.when people are just actually reporting, the end up having
:26:22. > :26:26.horrendous abuse targeted at them. They are just doing their jobs and
:26:26. > :26:35.back-up lot columns today are saying, line in the sand, this has
:26:35. > :26:44.to stop now. This kind of French is not doing anyone any favours.
:26:45. > :26:53.you see this behaviour stopping? I'd like to think it will. --
:26:53. > :26:58.fringe. You would hope perhaps that when senior figures in the SNP and
:26:58. > :27:04.the Labour Party speak out about it that those who are doing this might
:27:04. > :27:09.listen. What we have to do is focus on doing our jobs as journalists,
:27:09. > :27:17.presenting these stories as they come along. We should be analysing
:27:17. > :27:22.policies. We have to try and make sure it is a proper debate. That
:27:22. > :27:26.does not mean that people cannot have very strongly held views but
:27:26. > :27:31.we must be able to express them without these kinds of people
:27:31. > :27:37.intimidating them. We have always prided ourselves on being a
:27:37. > :27:45.tolerant nation. It is important to point out that some people within
:27:45. > :27:50.the SNP are getting similar abuse. Andrew Wilson is getting some
:27:50. > :27:56.hassle on line as a nationalist for complementing Douglas Alexander!
:27:56. > :28:05.Let's move on to the issue of UK it. Nigel Farage was in the Sunday
:28:05. > :28:10.Herald today with a clown's red nose. It is possibly been
:28:10. > :28:16.overstated. The media are very caught up in it but two-thirds of
:28:16. > :28:21.people who could what did not vote. It was a resounding success for
:28:21. > :28:26.them as they are but in terms of Scotland, we do not think they will
:28:26. > :28:36.have the same impact. The say they are now heading north and hoping to
:28:36. > :28:36.
:28:36. > :28:41.set up in cities up here. England at moves to the right, what
:28:41. > :28:47.effect could that have on the independence referendum? I thought
:28:47. > :28:54.she made a very interesting point which is what about if you have
:28:54. > :28:59.independence where Scotland is tied to the pound Stirling currency and
:28:59. > :29:02.then the UK opts out of the EU? Where does that leave Scotland or
:29:02. > :29:09.any combination of Scotland voting for independence and then there is
:29:09. > :29:15.a blot on the EU. That is a huge extra dimension and I am not quite
:29:15. > :29:21.sure where they then stand on it in the SNP. Where they would stand on
:29:21. > :29:26.the pounds Stirling if the UK was moving out of Europe. The SNP may
:29:26. > :29:31.see it as quite handy to see that England is lurching to the right
:29:31. > :29:38.but why then tie yourself into a shared currency? It raises as many
:29:38. > :29:47.questions as answer has. What about the UKIP themselves making some
:29:47. > :29:51.progress in Scotland? I do not think it is as big an issue and
:29:51. > :30:00.when you look at where they did well in England it is particular ad
:30:00. > :30:06.is where they have been talking of immigration. You cannot ignore
:30:06. > :30:10.ordinary people's views that they have worries about it. I do not
:30:10. > :30:15.think Scots necessarily are that different, it is just not as bigger
:30:15. > :30:20.issue here. Up are Scots more pro- European than their English may be
:30:20. > :30:26.as? I think so and we always have been and 10 to have an