:00:41. > :00:43.Sunday Politics. Downing Street is at war with Fleet Street this
:00:43. > :00:45.morning. The co-chairman of the Tory party
:00:45. > :00:55.denies describing activists as "mad, swivel-eyed loons" as reported by
:00:55. > :00:56.
:00:56. > :00:59.the Times, Telegraph and Mirror. That is our top story.
:00:59. > :01:02.A large part of the Conservative party would give the EU nil point.
:01:02. > :01:07.But what is the Liberal Democrat's Eurovision? The Chief Secretary to
:01:07. > :01:09.the Treasury, Danny Alexander, joins us for the Sunday interview.
:01:09. > :01:15.Could we have joint Conservative UKIP candidates at the next
:01:15. > :01:19.election? Downing Street has rejected the idea. Some of the
:01:19. > :01:22.party's backbenchers favour ia deal. Two MPs with opposing views go head
:01:22. > :01:26.to head. And coming up on Sunday Politics
:01:26. > :01:29.Scotland: as of this man wants a cut in immigration, the Scottish
:01:29. > :01:39.government tells us restrictive policies hold us back. The UK
:01:39. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :32:48.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1869 seconds
:32:48. > :32:53.and not say, if you like, UKIP, you can vote for us anyway. If you
:32:53. > :32:58.don't have his arrangements with UKIP that you like, it late --
:32:58. > :33:04.makes victory for your party in 2015 less likely? The lesson of the
:33:04. > :33:09.1980s, it you split one wing of politics, the other wing wins would
:33:09. > :33:19.be majorities. UKIP voters in opinion polls say 70% of them
:33:19. > :33:20.
:33:20. > :33:24.otherwise would have been conservative. 70% of the UKIP
:33:24. > :33:27.voters are identify a bleak otherwise conservative. UKIP is
:33:27. > :33:33.reaching out to some Thatcherite Conservatives that the party has
:33:33. > :33:40.not been able to reach recently. Are the Conservatives who want to
:33:40. > :33:45.do a deal with UKIP, on vague the swivel-eyed, loons, Mr Cameron's
:33:45. > :33:52.allies has supposedly been talking about? I am not abusing my
:33:52. > :33:58.colleagues. We are colleagues and Brad Conservatives. Do you see any
:33:58. > :34:03.swivel-eyed, loons among your party activists at times? When we fall
:34:03. > :34:07.out, we do use personal attacks against each other, but we are all
:34:07. > :34:14.Conservatives and we should all be out there working for Conservative
:34:14. > :34:18.Government. Are you one of the swivel-eyed, loons? I am close to
:34:18. > :34:24.Conservative associations. I have addressed over 50 of them and I am
:34:24. > :34:29.often in agreement with them. The reason I am in Parliament, is
:34:29. > :34:34.because I believe in it. I believe in Conservative principles which
:34:34. > :34:37.the wonderful activists and members of our party do. They have stuck
:34:38. > :34:42.with us through difficult times and deserve the greatest respect,
:34:42. > :34:46.admiration and support. You will know from the east the by-election
:34:46. > :34:51.and local elections, many people who had previously voted
:34:51. > :34:58.Conservative on now voting UKIP. It you want them back, you have to do
:34:58. > :35:03.something along the lines... Many people we want to vote Conservative
:35:03. > :35:11.of voting UKIP. UKIP are able to take votes from other parties,
:35:11. > :35:15.because the political debate is not about the issues regarding people
:35:15. > :35:19.who determined elections. We need to get out there and tell people we
:35:19. > :35:26.are dealing with immigration, we are dealing with welfare and then
:35:26. > :35:32.people have a positive reason to vote for us. Is it not a risk that
:35:32. > :35:37.if you go down the road that you would like to go down, you
:35:37. > :35:42.detoxified the conservative brand? You have become a backward looking,
:35:42. > :35:47.a right-wing party again? I always thought the idea of a toxic Tory
:35:47. > :35:52.party was nonsense. It showed a lack of confidence in our basic
:35:52. > :35:58.principles. What is exciting about the possibility of reuniting the
:35:58. > :36:04.right, in local elections, on a national level, 48% would have
:36:04. > :36:12.voted for two right wing parties. In South Shields Riggott between
:36:12. > :36:16.two right wing parties, 35% of the vote. That is up on the levels
:36:16. > :36:21.Margaret Thatcher was getting. Gay marriage coming up in the
:36:21. > :36:26.Commons next week. How will you vote? I had not decided. I had
:36:26. > :36:32.never been so conflicted about a piece of legislation. I have always
:36:32. > :36:36.been in favour of equality. have got to make up your mind.
:36:36. > :36:42.conflicted because I am in favour of a quality, but that bill is a
:36:42. > :36:46.mess. How are you going to vote? am a Roman Catholic and I believe
:36:46. > :36:50.it is the right of the Church to define marriage, not the right of
:36:50. > :36:57.the state. I shall vote in accordance with the Roman Catholic
:36:57. > :37:04.Whip. Are you taking your whip from the Pope? On this matter, I am
:37:05. > :37:12.forced up isn't that treason, a reparation it has not been treason
:37:12. > :37:13.since 1989. I did not realise that Act covered you. Thanks to both of
:37:13. > :37:14.useful stop useful stop
:37:14. > :37:24.useful stop You're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:24. > :37:28.
:37:28. > :37:32.Coming up on the programme: this man's visit to Scotland certainly
:37:32. > :37:34.had an impact. His views on immigration have impacted on
:37:34. > :37:36.Westminster that the Scottish government say those restrictive
:37:36. > :37:39.policies harm our economy. Yes to independence can unleash the
:37:39. > :37:42.potential of the tourism and creative industries, a less rosy
:37:42. > :37:46.picture of Scotland's economy under independence is being painted by the
:37:46. > :37:49.UK Government. Fighting the fight with all their
:37:49. > :37:51.might - Kirk ministers gather for a crucial decision on gay clergy -
:37:51. > :38:01.which side will be the church triumphant? Presbyterianism is prone
:38:01. > :38:05.
:38:05. > :38:08.to people kind of leaving on points leaving on points of principle and
:38:08. > :38:18.points of who visit and splintering. I hope we do not have that
:38:18. > :38:20.situation. Restrictive immigration policies are
:38:20. > :38:23.holding back Scotland's economy - the Scottish government have told
:38:23. > :38:29.us. The comments were made by the External Affairs Minister Humza
:38:29. > :38:31.Yousaf as he hit out at Westminster's approach. But is there
:38:31. > :38:37.really support for more migration? Our political correspondent, Niall
:38:37. > :38:42.O'Gallagher, has more. My government will bring forward a bill that
:38:42. > :38:46.further reforms written's immigration system, the bill will
:38:47. > :38:55.ensure that this country attracts people who will contribute and
:38:55. > :38:58.deters those who will not. That was the message delivered by the Queen
:38:58. > :39:03.as the government tried to put on a brave face after gains for UKIP in
:39:03. > :39:06.the local elections. In Glasgow this week Gordon Brown accused the
:39:06. > :39:13.Conservatives of pandering to pressure from the right-wing. Driven
:39:13. > :39:23.by UKIP, as you know, a party that was once pro-Europe is no
:39:23. > :39:24.
:39:24. > :39:27.anti-Europe. Our party is now becoming power light on immigration.
:39:27. > :39:33.A Scottish minister with responsibility for immigration IDs.
:39:33. > :39:36.There is no doubt the restrictive policies are damaging Scotland's
:39:36. > :39:41.economy and the message that Scotland is open to those who come
:39:41. > :39:47.from overseas to make a skilled contribution to Scotland.
:39:47. > :39:53.Restrictive immigration policies are one of the only policies which unite
:39:53. > :40:00.Scottish policies, the trade unions, the universities, the cos they all
:40:00. > :40:03.feel the impact of the restrictive policies of the UK Government.
:40:03. > :40:10.is there support for a more liberal approach to immigration north of the
:40:10. > :40:13.border? There is some evidence that in Scotland attitudes towards
:40:13. > :40:19.immigration are somewhat more tolerant or welcoming. I stress
:40:19. > :40:24.somewhat. We still find a majority of opinion favours less immigration
:40:24. > :40:28.than current levels. We do find a difference between Scotland and the
:40:28. > :40:34.rest of the UK. Nigel Farage came to Edinburgh on Thursday hoping to get
:40:34. > :40:41.a heat -- the Hague -- healing for his tougher approach. We heard these
:40:41. > :40:45.arguments in England ten or 15 years ago to help the economy. We now have
:40:45. > :40:50.hundreds of thousands of youngsters in England unemployed, try set of
:40:50. > :40:56.jobs, immigration can be a very good thing for the economy, but it needs
:40:56. > :41:03.to be controlled. The UKIP message was drowned out by antiracism
:41:03. > :41:07.testers on the Royal Mile. Arguments are Scots are more liberal with the
:41:07. > :41:11.racism remains a problem. The various social attitude surveys have
:41:11. > :41:20.been done with people in Scotland and indicate that Scotland have a
:41:20. > :41:24.more liberal attitude towards immigration and foreigners, this is
:41:24. > :41:29.praised among Scottish officials and the wider population and we should
:41:29. > :41:35.be proud of that. However, it lies what I hear from the grassroots,
:41:35. > :41:37.from immigrants and migrants who are here. The Scottish government says
:41:38. > :41:44.independence is the only way to get an immigration policy suited towards
:41:44. > :41:48.Scottish needs. Independent or not, can Scotland and England have two
:41:48. > :41:51.different approaches well the border remains open? With me here in the
:41:51. > :41:53.studio now is Patrick Harvie, co-convener of the Scottish Green
:41:53. > :42:02.Party and in Aberdeen, Alex Johnstone the Scottish Conservative
:42:02. > :42:04.MSP for north-east Scotland. Good morning. Thank you for joining me.
:42:04. > :42:10.The immigration minister could not join us for the discussion this
:42:10. > :42:15.morning. He did tell us we were bringing immigration back under
:42:15. > :42:19.control while introducing the means to attract the best and brightest to
:42:19. > :42:25.our shores. With the Clandown announced in the Queen's speech, how
:42:25. > :42:30.much is the UK Government dancing to the tune of UKIP on this policy? We
:42:30. > :42:38.are clearly seen the UK Government do what is best for the economy of
:42:38. > :42:43.the United Kingdom. We benefit hugely from Eastern European
:42:43. > :42:46.immigration, we have managed to overcome the problem of labour
:42:46. > :42:51.shortages. We have managed to avoid the problem which has been
:42:51. > :42:56.highlighted south of the border, where there has been apparently
:42:56. > :43:00.emigration based on the benefits system. We do not want to see that
:43:00. > :43:06.in Scotland. There is a need to tighten up in some areas but the
:43:06. > :43:10.government have the right attitude to immigration. UKIP are suggesting
:43:10. > :43:14.a five-year freeze on emigration for permanent settlement until UK
:43:14. > :43:22.Borders have been brought into control, but with UKIP in this
:43:22. > :43:26.dynamic there is a race and the UK Government are pandering to them?
:43:26. > :43:32.The UK Government will not take that approach. The idea of seizing
:43:32. > :43:37.emigration would wipe out so many Scottish companies who are desperate
:43:37. > :43:40.to find a reliable workforce. I speak to people in the north-east
:43:40. > :43:47.everyday who have businesses based on an Eastern European workforce and
:43:47. > :43:52.without then they would not have a company. Nigel Farage has hit a
:43:52. > :43:58.nerve down south, hasn't he? He has tacked into something which is an
:43:58. > :44:03.apparent issue. If we had the same levels of immigration in Scotland,
:44:03. > :44:10.voters would be expressing the same concerns, wouldn't be? I have
:44:10. > :44:14.canvassed in Scotland and with Mike colleagues in England as well, it is
:44:14. > :44:20.clear to me there is a degree of hostility which exists in some parts
:44:20. > :44:26.of England towards immigration and immigrants. This does not exist here
:44:26. > :44:29.or not to the same degree. We can debate whether people like the
:44:29. > :44:33.absurd Nigel Farage have whipped that up or whether newspapers have
:44:33. > :44:40.whipped that up or whether successive UK governments have
:44:40. > :44:44.whipped that up for political ends. But the reality is that that degree
:44:44. > :44:50.of hostility which can find south of the border in some places does not
:44:50. > :44:55.exist in Scotland to Civic Centre. It is really important we do not
:44:55. > :45:01.carry on the debate that Nigel Farage would like us to have. -- to
:45:01. > :45:07.the same extent. Is that not because we have not seen the same impact on
:45:07. > :45:14.services here? We saw in the report that Scots are only somewhat more
:45:14. > :45:18.tolerant. I have not seen the specific questions that that
:45:18. > :45:26.research asked people. I think most politicians I have spoken to Wood
:45:26. > :45:31.agreed with the judgement that there is a degree of hostility, not just
:45:31. > :45:37.about ticking boxes but how concerned people are and how that
:45:37. > :45:47.concern expresses itself. If we are concerned about the impact on
:45:47. > :45:49.
:45:50. > :45:53.employment and whether people are able to get a job in Scotland, we
:45:53. > :45:57.should be talking about issues like the living wage. When employers go
:45:57. > :46:02.for the cheapest possible Libra, we should look at the lawyers rather
:46:02. > :46:06.than immigration. In Scotland we appear to be more fear, that is a
:46:07. > :46:10.point mentioned, does that mean we are better than the English, that is
:46:10. > :46:13.what it sounds like there's Mike know, we have a clear sense of
:46:14. > :46:20.social sussed -- social justice. That is not to say we get everything
:46:20. > :46:24.right. We would be making a serious mistake to imagine there is room on
:46:24. > :46:32.the political spectrum for the kind of caricature sideshow that UKIP or
:46:32. > :46:36.first. Alex Johnstone, you are sitting in Aberdeen, as the team
:46:36. > :46:44.booming, needing skilled workers from all over the world, you spoke
:46:44. > :46:48.about examples bear of skilled migrant workers, do you not agree
:46:48. > :46:53.with the point that universities and businesses really need those skilled
:46:53. > :47:01.migrants coming in and your colleagues in the UK Government are
:47:01. > :47:04.holding Scotland backed by restrictive policies? We have a
:47:04. > :47:08.strange position in Scotland. We have some areas of serious welfare
:47:08. > :47:13.dependency and we have regions like Aberdeen and the north-east where
:47:13. > :47:18.there are two jobs for every job-seeker. The fact that one region
:47:18. > :47:22.does not feed into the other is a serious concern. I think that
:47:22. > :47:25.Scotland's and the rest of the British hold similar attitudes. The
:47:25. > :47:30.only reason we see a different expression of that in Scotland is
:47:30. > :47:36.that we have not had the experience of people coming in in large numbers
:47:36. > :47:40.simply to take advantage of the benefits system. If we did see that
:47:40. > :47:45.in Scotland, public opinion would change radically. That is what we
:47:45. > :47:50.have two defend against. Tight regulation is important but we must
:47:51. > :47:59.make sure we can bring in the people we need to satisfy business demands.
:47:59. > :48:03.The UK Government are not proposing regulation of emigration.
:48:03. > :48:09.proposed for landlords not to be allowed to let tenancies to people,
:48:09. > :48:13.it is for doctors not to treat people on the NHS. Or even having a
:48:13. > :48:18.debate in the UK Government about whether to ban the children of
:48:18. > :48:23.immigrants to schools. That is a punitive approach for people already
:48:23. > :48:28.here. It is not regulation of those who wish to come. A punitive
:48:28. > :48:33.approach? That is an oversimplification of the
:48:33. > :48:38.situation. None of these restrictions can apply to EU
:48:38. > :48:42.citizens so EU immigrants are free from these restrictions. Anyone who
:48:42. > :48:47.comes here legally and appropriately will be offered all the protections
:48:47. > :48:51.that this country has. There are perhaps a handful of people out here
:48:51. > :48:56.who may choose to enter this country illegally who may find themselves at
:48:56. > :49:01.a disadvantage, but the bad majority of people out there support that
:49:02. > :49:07.kind of fine tuning to the system. Patrick Harvie, you want this
:49:07. > :49:13.different approach. In the report we picked up on Scotland having a
:49:13. > :49:19.different approach, you advocate independence, we would probably
:49:19. > :49:23.still had to rely on agreements with the UK Government, would we not? We
:49:23. > :49:29.would have took what great with Ireland and the rest of the UK. We
:49:29. > :49:32.would at least be in a position to negotiate an agreement. Even if the
:49:32. > :49:42.Scottish and UK government were dominated by the same political
:49:42. > :49:46.party, like Labour. Even then, when Jack McConnell as first Minister
:49:46. > :49:52.wanted flexibility for Scotland to meet our own needs in immigration
:49:52. > :49:58.system, he did not get it. It is unlikely to see a situation where a
:49:58. > :50:04.Scottish Government whether it's the same party of different parties
:50:04. > :50:06.running the show, will be able to reflect any degree of control to
:50:07. > :50:12.meet the needs of Scottish universities, businesses and
:50:12. > :50:17.communities. Under independence could we get that degree of
:50:17. > :50:20.flexibility? We would not have absolute flexibility. There would
:50:20. > :50:23.have to be some sort of accommodation between the
:50:23. > :50:33.governments but it would be an agreement would have to sign up to
:50:33. > :50:40.
:50:40. > :50:47.rather than as UK Government imposing it. Unfortunately, that is
:50:47. > :50:52.not how it works in the European single market. If you sign up to
:50:52. > :50:57.that agreement, you agree to open up your borders. In some future
:50:57. > :51:03.independent Scotland was part of the agreement, but the rest of the
:51:03. > :51:09.United Kingdom was not, it would be a requirement that immigration
:51:09. > :51:12.across the Scottish and English boundary was regulated. We will have
:51:12. > :51:16.to leave it there. Thank you both for joining me.
:51:16. > :51:19.Now, it seems at the beginning of every week there is a flurry of
:51:19. > :51:21.papers from both sides of the independence debate. On Tuesday, the
:51:21. > :51:24.Scottish government will highlight how independence could unleash the
:51:24. > :51:27.economic power of the creative industries and tourism, for example.
:51:27. > :51:30.In a less rosier picture, the UK government's paper tomorrow will
:51:30. > :51:40.focus on banking - and how Scottish taxpayers could be at serious risk
:51:40. > :51:41.
:51:41. > :51:45.if banks went bust in an independent Scotland. Scotland's economic
:51:45. > :51:49.strains and confidence will be at the heart of the Independent 's
:51:49. > :51:55.argument, the Scottish government say. On Tuesday, the economic
:51:55. > :52:02.strategy will focus on the possibilities of growth. In
:52:02. > :52:09.particular, it focuses on the creative industries, food and drink
:52:09. > :52:13.and tourism. Nicola Sturgeon said combining the powers of independence
:52:13. > :52:19.with the resources of Scotland gives is every reason to be confident
:52:19. > :52:22.about our ability to thrive as an independent nation. Not such
:52:22. > :52:27.optimism from the United Kingdom Government, still trying to clean up
:52:27. > :52:37.the mess of the banking sector. Tomorrow, the Scottish Secretary
:52:37. > :52:42.
:52:42. > :52:52.will be in Edinburgh to present the analysis. It says: In contrast, an
:52:52. > :53:00.
:53:00. > :53:03.independent Scotland would have: Let us debate those two issues now.
:53:04. > :53:06.We have MSP Kenny Gibson from the SNP, who is convener of the Finance
:53:06. > :53:16.Committee at Holyrood, and Ken McIntosh, Scottish Labour's finance
:53:16. > :53:16.
:53:16. > :53:22.spokesman. Thank you both for joining me. What is the big idea
:53:22. > :53:30.behind the economy strategy from the line being released today. It
:53:30. > :53:34.appears to be familiar territory. are just trying to show how positive
:53:34. > :53:44.the Scottish economy as the potential of it. Through oil and
:53:44. > :53:44.
:53:44. > :53:51.gas, at as a income of a huge percentage of the United Kingdom
:53:51. > :53:55.average. We have a huge amount of jobs in the financial sector and to
:53:55. > :54:00.his. We're not just looking at the potential, but what we are achieving
:54:00. > :54:07.at the moment and what more we could do with more power through
:54:07. > :54:12.independence. You say you could do that in the likes of tourism, film
:54:12. > :54:17.making, food and drink, the restaurant trade. But it sounds as
:54:17. > :54:24.if you are an honest talking about taxbreaks, for the likes of the
:54:24. > :54:29.restaurant trade. The restaurant chap who was quoted said he wanted
:54:29. > :54:38.the common fisheries policy looked at again. These are difficult things
:54:38. > :54:46.to 18? If you look at the European Union, most of the countries have
:54:46. > :54:54.some sort of taxbreaks with relation to tourism. It is just like
:54:54. > :55:04.passenger duty is important. We know it is costing the Scottish economy a
:55:04. > :55:08.lot in lost revenue. But this fell sounds like tax breaks? Yes, it is,
:55:08. > :55:17.but it would be possible because we would have control of the revenue
:55:17. > :55:23.from the oil and gas in the North Sea. Remember, we are an unequal
:55:23. > :55:29.society as the United Kingdom. sounds like a very positive
:55:29. > :55:33.argument. I am not against local control. The whole point of devil
:55:33. > :55:41.you should want to do that. There is a strong argument to seeing that
:55:41. > :55:45.more power should be evident to the cities, like Edinburgh and Alaska.
:55:45. > :55:51.They are very dynamic sectors of the economy. Maybe we should be giving
:55:51. > :55:55.them more control to push the country along. But you put your
:55:55. > :56:05.finger on what controls they are talking about. I think the Scottish
:56:05. > :56:11.National party is talking about tax cuts. I do not shear the view as
:56:11. > :56:19.Scotland as a tax haven. I am agitated that the likes of Amazon
:56:19. > :56:26.yet taxbreaks to come here and put workers here out of work. That is
:56:26. > :56:30.claim and counterclaim in this. The Scottish government talk about tax
:56:30. > :56:37.and how much we contribute, but what it did not say was how much we get
:56:37. > :56:43.to spend. I have heard a lot of SNP arguments about this, but they tend
:56:44. > :56:51.to come back to oil. The tent to assume that oil wealth fund all
:56:51. > :56:57.these extra benefits. But we have two balance the economy. I agree
:56:57. > :57:05.about the view of the socially just Scotland, but you cannot just cut
:57:05. > :57:10.tax cut value added tax. There needs to be a balance. This is the rosy
:57:10. > :57:14.picture of an independent Scotland. But you have seen the United Kingdom
:57:14. > :57:18.Government talking about banking. The passing Scotland could not
:57:18. > :57:24.afford the banking crisis that we saw in the likes of Iceland and
:57:24. > :57:31.Cyprus. The banking sector would simply be too big. That is complete
:57:31. > :57:40.nonsense. It lacks total credibility. Only today in the
:57:40. > :57:46.Sunday Times, a former managing director of direct line said that
:57:46. > :57:55.lacks credibility and has not seriously analyse the Scottish
:57:55. > :57:58.economy. But surely has analysed the Scottish economy? It showed how big
:57:58. > :58:06.the banking sector was here in relation to the rest of the United
:58:06. > :58:12.Kingdom. London is the biggest financial centre in the world, which
:58:12. > :58:16.is why we had the likes of the banking crisis centred on here and
:58:16. > :58:23.in the United States. But this is the same nonsense that we saw in
:58:23. > :58:29.1970. Denis Healey in the 1970s has admitted that he lied about the
:58:29. > :58:38.Scottish oil raver revenues so that it would have an impact on the
:58:38. > :58:42.independence referendum. What we are seeing is the same tactic what we
:58:42. > :58:52.want is the Treasury to engage positively with Scotland. It is not
:58:52. > :58:53.
:58:53. > :58:58.neutral. These comments have been rubbished here by Kenny Gibson. What
:58:58. > :59:04.is your reaction? I think it is important that everyone gets hold of
:59:04. > :59:09.all the information so they make their own decision. This is the
:59:09. > :59:12.future of the country. If we get it wrong, there is no going back. We
:59:13. > :59:22.need to know the detail. We need to think about the things that will
:59:23. > :59:24.
:59:24. > :59:29.change. The Scottish National party wants to protect this idea that come
:59:29. > :59:34.independence, things will change, but nothing will really change. That
:59:34. > :59:41.is not true. Things will really change. We have to look at all
:59:41. > :59:45.aspects of the economy. Take pensions, which talk about the fact
:59:45. > :59:51.that most pensions are paid out of current revenue and income, so
:59:51. > :59:56.therefore if you have a bigger pool of income, you have less risk.
:59:56. > :00:02.finance secretary said that the same banking collapse could not happen he
:00:02. > :00:05.here now. Because of new regulations. I have heard so many
:00:05. > :00:15.guarantees about what will not happen in the future. Nobody can
:00:15. > :00:16.
:00:16. > :00:19.guarantee these things. And letters remember, he produced a paper for
:00:19. > :00:23.his colleagues which was very different from that.
:00:23. > :00:26.You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC. We are
:00:26. > :00:29.heading to the news now, but coming up after that, we are looking at the
:00:29. > :00:32.ordination of gay clergy. The General Assembly of the Church
:00:32. > :00:35.Scotland is meeting in Edinburgh just now. They will vote on the
:00:35. > :00:45.issue tomorrow. Let us cross to London now for the latest update
:00:45. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:14.from Maxine Mawhinney and Reporting was telling Parliament why he had
:01:14. > :01:21.quit the government, because he disagreed strongly with the then
:01:21. > :01:26.Prime Minister of Europe. Now, 23 years on, he is attacking another
:01:26. > :01:36.prime minister from his party over their relationship with the European
:01:36. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :01:39.Union. He said that David Cameron is negotiation has opened a Pandora's
:01:39. > :01:49.box and that the party is now running scared from the backbenchers
:01:49. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :01:58.of the party. If there is of the referendum was to suggest that we
:01:58. > :02:01.were to leave the European Union it would be of grave consequence.
:02:01. > :02:09.has been a week where the Conservatives appear to obsess over
:02:09. > :02:17.Europe. Then, over 100 of its own members of Parliament voted against
:02:17. > :02:22.the party. Everyone is saying it is in meltdown now. At the top, one
:02:22. > :02:25.senior minister said they were in agreement. The policy issue is, do
:02:25. > :02:33.we need to do something to make our relationship with Europe from?
:02:33. > :02:36.Ansar to that is yes. David Cameron has promised to renegotiate the
:02:37. > :02:43.terms of membership. There is pressure on him to hurry up. We want
:02:43. > :02:49.to get on with it. We think the new relationship has to be based on
:02:49. > :02:57.trade. It cannot be based on common government. So, the then Minister is
:02:57. > :03:02.caught between the old guard and a new inpatient group of MPs. A former
:03:02. > :03:06.employee of Internet giant Google is providing evidence to the tax
:03:06. > :03:13.authorities about how the company avoided paying corporation tax in
:03:13. > :03:20.Britain by using offices in Dublin to finalise contracts. He claims
:03:20. > :03:26.that at that time, some deals were completed in Britain. Google said it
:03:26. > :03:32.cannot comment on specific allegations by CV comply fully with
:03:32. > :03:40.United Kingdom tax law. The funeral will take place today of the
:03:40. > :03:45.colleague of Imran can do was shot dead on the eve of the rerun of the
:03:45. > :03:55.recent election. The police are investigating whether it was
:03:55. > :04:00.politically motivated or the result of a botched robbery. Today,
:04:00. > :04:05.comedians and Eric Morecambe are being commemorated by a blue plaque
:04:05. > :04:12.at the Teddington Studios. It will be unveiled shortly by the widow of
:04:12. > :04:17.Eric Morecambe. That is all the news for now. There will be more news on
:04:17. > :04:19.BBC One at six o'clock. Scotland's economy is being held back by
:04:19. > :04:24.restrictive immigration policies of the UK Government, according to
:04:24. > :04:26.Scotland's External Affairs minister, Humza Yousaf.
:04:26. > :04:36.Economic arguments both for and against Scottish independence will
:04:36. > :04:41.be presented this week by the Scottish and UK governments. It is
:04:41. > :04:43.one of the only policies that unites trade unions, politicians and
:04:43. > :04:49.universities because they are all feeling the impact of this
:04:49. > :04:57.restriction. There is some evidence that in Scotland attitudes to
:04:57. > :05:00.immigration are somewhat more tolerant or welcoming. I stress,
:05:01. > :05:10.somewhat. The majority of opinion in Scotland still favours less
:05:11. > :05:11.
:05:11. > :05:14.immigration. Economic arguments for and against independence will be put
:05:14. > :05:17.forward by the Scottish and United Kingdom governments. A report for
:05:17. > :05:20.the Treasury warns that the banking sector in an independent Scotland
:05:20. > :05:22.would be vulnerable because the country would be less able to afford
:05:22. > :05:25.bail-outs. The Scottish government will publish its own analysis,
:05:25. > :05:27.supporting claims that it needs more power over economic decisions to
:05:27. > :05:30.promote growth. Football now and the SPL season
:05:30. > :05:32.draws to a close this afternoon, with Celtic travelling to Dundee
:05:32. > :05:36.United and a Highland derby between Ross County and Inverness. Lastly,
:05:36. > :05:39.St Johnstone host Motherwell, hoping for a win and for Caley Thistle to
:05:39. > :05:49.drop points in the race for the final European place.
:05:49. > :05:57.
:05:57. > :06:00.Now the weather forecast, with this afternoon. As the temperature
:06:00. > :06:06.rises this afternoon, we will see some heavy downpours in the
:06:06. > :06:16.north-east in particular. The best of the sunshine and north-western
:06:16. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:31.Scotland, with top temperatures of 22 Celsius. 1560. 1843. Dates once
:06:31. > :06:34.imprinted on the minds of many Scots. Great events in the life of
:06:34. > :06:37.the kirk - the separation from Rome and the Great Disruption. Could
:06:37. > :06:40.there be another disruption in 2013? The Church of Scotland's General
:06:40. > :06:43.Assembly will tomorrow vote on the ordination of gay clergy. Laura
:06:43. > :06:46.Maxwell reports on the controversial issue which threatens to split the
:06:47. > :06:51.kirk. And so it begins, these are the men and women who will decide if
:06:51. > :06:57.gay ministers can be ordained into the Church of Scotland. This is a
:06:57. > :07:02.deeply personal subject, especially for Scott Rennie. His nomination in
:07:02. > :07:05.Aberdeen four years ago brought the issue to a head. He was supported
:07:05. > :07:13.then by his congregation and later by the General assembly. The wider
:07:13. > :07:20.church, this is not a one-man or just one issue. The debate is about
:07:20. > :07:24.the authority of Scripture. It underlies the scheme about the
:07:24. > :07:28.possibility of gay and lesbian ministers, there is a battle over
:07:28. > :07:35.the meaning of Scripture and whether it can be applied straightforwardly
:07:35. > :07:37.to Today's problems. In 2011, the General Assembly appointed a special
:07:38. > :07:43.commission to investigate both sides of the theological argument. It has
:07:43. > :07:48.made no art -- recommendations, instead it offers options. One
:07:48. > :07:52.approach is to support the ordination of those in civil
:07:52. > :07:58.partnerships while respecting any minister or congregation's decision
:07:58. > :08:02.not to accept gay minister. Down the centuries, often when the church has
:08:02. > :08:06.taken a negative view of progress, it has proven to be in the wrong
:08:06. > :08:12.side of history. With this issue, more and more of us accept and
:08:12. > :08:17.recognise that our sexuality is something given, not a matter of
:08:17. > :08:23.choice. Some ministers disagree so strongly they have left the church
:08:23. > :08:30.already, including reverend Paul Gibson. The pages of Scripture have
:08:30. > :08:33.such clarity on this issue, it is absolutely comprehensive in its
:08:33. > :08:41.declaration that same-sex activity is something which is seen as sinful
:08:41. > :08:47.by God. It is something he has the power to transform the person from
:08:47. > :08:51.in belief of Jesus Christ. The General Assembly is on a tightrope.
:08:51. > :08:55.On the one hand the church could appear more more done and relevant
:08:55. > :09:02.and on the other it could trigger a split. This could be costly in terms
:09:02. > :09:08.of the damage to the wider community and also in the courts. In June last
:09:08. > :09:13.year, the minister and congregation here at St George's Tron in Glasgow
:09:13. > :09:20.decided to split. Legal proceedings are now underway. In Aberdeen, the
:09:20. > :09:27.congregation of this church followed suit. Speculation is rife that their
:09:27. > :09:34.exodus will not be the last. What is new is the strength of feeling about
:09:34. > :09:39.this. It is like Custer's last stand with the wagons circling over this
:09:39. > :09:47.particular issue. That is what has given it the hate and possibility of
:09:47. > :09:51.a breakaway movement. I think the two sides need to keep talking.
:09:51. > :09:55.is no doubt the debate tomorrow is important but it might not be the
:09:55. > :10:01.last. Even if the General Assembly vote in favour, there will still be
:10:01. > :10:06.time for thought. Their decision gets passed back to the presbytery
:10:06. > :10:11.till the approval and that is not automatic. Even with their blessing,
:10:11. > :10:13.it will be at least 2015 before we see the ordination of openly gay men
:10:13. > :10:16.and women into the Church of Scotland.
:10:16. > :10:18.I'm now joined from Edinburgh by Professor Donald MacLeod, the
:10:18. > :10:21.eminent Free Church theologian, Dr William Naphy from Aberdeen
:10:21. > :10:24.University's history department - he has a specialist interest in kirk
:10:24. > :10:27.history and the history of sexuality and with me in the studio we have
:10:27. > :10:36.Stephen McGinty, who writes for the The Scotsman - frequently on the
:10:36. > :10:43.subject of religion. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining me. First EU
:10:43. > :10:48.Professor, what is your prediction for how this vote might call? How
:10:48. > :10:58.many ministers might leave the church and go to the free Church? I
:10:58. > :11:01.
:11:01. > :11:07.think that a few will leave. There is no real mood, in my view, as
:11:07. > :11:12.leaving the church is a very solemn business. Although the free Church
:11:12. > :11:18.would welcome any of these ministers, there is also a profound
:11:18. > :11:25.anti-free Church phobia which would deterrent many of those who are
:11:25. > :11:31.opposed to gay ordination. We also have very different theology too
:11:31. > :11:37.many of those opposed to gay ordination. Really, a split is going
:11:37. > :11:44.to benefit nobody. It is important to regroup after the assembly and
:11:44. > :11:49.realign in a positive way. I do not see any significance to this
:11:49. > :11:57.secession and don't want to encourage it. What are your
:11:57. > :12:02.predictions as to how the vote might call? I tend to think they are
:12:02. > :12:07.likely to Fort to allow ordination by individual churches, so they can
:12:07. > :12:12.make up the remains. I tend to agree with your first eager that secession
:12:13. > :12:18.is unlikely to beat large-scale. Those that we've may find it
:12:18. > :12:24.difficult to find an old tenet of home. They're unlikely want to
:12:24. > :12:27.set-up as entirely independent. Professor MacLeod, it might be a
:12:27. > :12:34.difficult platform for the free Church to sheer platform with
:12:34. > :12:40.evangelicals who might split, you might agree about gay clergy but not
:12:40. > :12:43.on other areas like progressive forms of worship for example?
:12:43. > :12:52.free Church is the confessional church with a comprehensive
:12:52. > :12:57.theology. While we are sympathetic towards the anti-ordination,
:12:57. > :13:05.nevertheless, reluctant to encourage further chaos in Scotland in
:13:05. > :13:13.ecclesiastical a. We are prepared to support those in difficulty but I do
:13:13. > :13:19.not expect any large ingress to the free Church. This causes a lot of
:13:19. > :13:28.pain, for example at domestic and family level. It is highly emotive
:13:28. > :13:34.and the distress involved in leaving our congregation is considerable.
:13:34. > :13:40.All these things have a huge emotional cost on a personal and
:13:40. > :13:44.domestic family level. As we are hearing, a very turbulent time for
:13:44. > :13:50.the Church of Scotland now, but how is this used in the wider world?
:13:50. > :13:54.think people forget the incredible changes which are taking place in
:13:54. > :14:03.society. It is on was 25 years to the day since a group of lesbians
:14:03. > :14:09.broke into the BBC and hand cupped themselves to Sue Lawley's cheer.
:14:09. > :14:16.They did this because the government had introduced Section 28 which
:14:16. > :14:21.banned the promotion of homosexuality. Now, 25 years later
:14:21. > :14:23.we are in a situation where the church of England is having to plead
:14:23. > :14:29.to the government to introduce government which would prevent them
:14:29. > :14:36.from having been forced to conduct gay marriages. That is a huge
:14:36. > :14:42.seismic change in society. Whereas society itself, 60% of Scots believe
:14:42. > :14:46.gay marriage, which has gone up from 40% a decade ago. They believe the
:14:46. > :14:52.church should move at the time but people forget the essence of a
:14:52. > :14:58.church might be a conservative unit. It believes it stands separate
:14:58. > :15:03.from society and is more cautious about accepting these things.
:15:03. > :15:08.Interesting points there, the church was in step with state and those two
:15:08. > :15:15.have now broken away. It is difficult for us to remember that
:15:15. > :15:22.the Church of Scotland was very progressive, it broke away from Rome
:15:22. > :15:26.in 1560, that was a progressive move. The issue is to remember the
:15:26. > :15:32.Kirk presents itself as a national church and that is different from
:15:32. > :15:41.being a confessional, independent denominations. It has a role it
:15:41. > :15:43.understands in society, as a national organisation. It
:15:43. > :15:50.compensates the situation because it must not just interact with the
:15:50. > :15:55.nation but respond to it. Professor MacLeod, this is a turbulent time
:15:55. > :16:02.for the Church of Scotland, is this the debate about how Scripture is
:16:02. > :16:09.used? Could that have been another key issue other than homosexuality
:16:09. > :16:12.which could have been a crunch issue? There have been other issues
:16:12. > :16:19.over ordination which led to a similar debate in the past but not
:16:19. > :16:24.this crisis. It is the authority that governs the church, we can move
:16:24. > :16:32.with the times. The Bible is cleared on this issue, that is no ambiguity
:16:32. > :16:41.at all. That is the wider ecumenical dimension as well, the church for
:16:41. > :16:49.the last millennia have also taken the view that they cannot ordain
:16:49. > :16:58.those living in my relationships. The church is perfectly happy to
:16:58. > :17:07.endorse and defend those rights. We all it to the gay community to live
:17:07. > :17:12.their own lifestyles. The church has moved with the times in the past but
:17:12. > :17:16.it seems the Presbyterian Church is relaxed about divorce. We do not
:17:16. > :17:24.hear much about abortion, why is homosexuality is such a difficult
:17:24. > :17:28.point? I think largely because there are certain verses in the Scripture
:17:28. > :17:32.which present clarity on the issue and I would argue they are not as
:17:32. > :17:40.clear as people say they are. you are right, divorce is clearly
:17:40. > :17:44.taught in the Bible, but people except divorce. The attitude in
:17:44. > :17:51.Presbyterianism and Protestantism is different on contraception to
:17:52. > :17:58.Catholicism. I think this is just that kind of an issue for our age
:17:58. > :18:03.and because it is the litmus test of a biblical authority, it is taking
:18:03. > :18:10.on that kind of role. If you read the arguments about divorce and
:18:10. > :18:16.contraception, they are just as divisive and brittle. The Church of
:18:16. > :18:20.Scotland was a beacon, it was seen as a Parliament of Scotland for a
:18:20. > :18:30.long time, is it still regarded as that and will the decision have an
:18:30. > :18:31.
:18:31. > :18:36.impact on wider Scotland? I think it will. Prior to the parliament, the
:18:36. > :18:41.Church of Scotland spoke to the -- for the nation. If it voted
:18:41. > :18:44.positively on this issue, it will be seen to be in step with civil
:18:44. > :18:50.society and the views of the majority of Scots stop as a reformed
:18:50. > :18:59.faith, it would send a signal as being the vanguard of social
:18:59. > :19:04.change. It would send a positive signal. The key thing on this issue
:19:04. > :19:08.is when will we actually CDs issues being adopt did in an orthodox
:19:08. > :19:15.synagogue or a Catholic Church or a mosque and that is a long way ahead.
:19:15. > :19:22.-- actually see these issues. attendance is falling in the Western
:19:22. > :19:28.culture, in other areas in the world attendance is going up
:19:28. > :19:33.exponentially, why is that? Date is still very important to a huge
:19:33. > :19:42.number of people, and still within Scotland. Bar more people go to
:19:42. > :19:49.church on Sunday or Saturday. -- far more people. People make up their
:19:49. > :19:58.minds more and contribute to the ideas. Professor MacLeod, a couple
:19:58. > :20:05.of interesting steps along the way before a final decision is made? The
:20:05. > :20:13.barrier act prevents isolation on the part of the church. I think
:20:13. > :20:16.Presbyterianism will endorse the view of the assembly. I think it
:20:16. > :20:24.will back the ordination of gay clergy. I think it will delay the
:20:24. > :20:29.inevitable outcome. In the meantime, they must regroup and consider where
:20:29. > :20:33.they go from this point on words. I think they should refrain from
:20:33. > :20:40.Priscilla to action. There has been no change in the Protestant view
:20:40. > :20:44.about divorce and contraception for the last 500 years. We will have to
:20:44. > :20:47.leave it there. Thank you all very much.
:20:47. > :20:51.Now in a moment, we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week
:20:51. > :21:01.at Holyrood, but first, let's take a look back at the Week in Sixty
:21:01. > :21:03.
:21:04. > :21:07.seconds. The former Prime Minister Gordon Brown returned to the
:21:07. > :21:12.frontline of Scottish politics to launch the Labour campaign for
:21:12. > :21:18.Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom. Cardinal Keith O'Brien will
:21:18. > :21:28.leave Scotland for several months after he admitted improper sexual
:21:28. > :21:35.
:21:35. > :21:45.Parliament was sworn in. He took his oath in English and his native
:21:45. > :21:52.
:21:52. > :21:59.1400 job losses, most of them in Edinburgh. Nominations have close
:21:59. > :22:03.for the by-election in Aberdeen. The election takes place on June the
:22:03. > :22:12.20th. That was the week that was. Let us
:22:12. > :22:16.now take a look at the week to come. With me in the studio to chew over
:22:16. > :22:26.the busy week that was and what is in store next week, Mike Wade, who
:22:26. > :22:27.
:22:27. > :22:33.writes for The Times, and Lucy Adams of The Herald. Let us turn to the
:22:33. > :22:40.two papers of the economy that are coming out. Look at this headline
:22:40. > :22:46.from the Sunday express. This is a reference to the United Kingdom
:22:46. > :22:56.paper coming out tomorrow. We were stealing from Kenny Gibson Elia,
:22:56. > :23:00.what did you make of his argument about the banking intervention?
:23:00. > :23:10.is best that people are putting something into the debate so that
:23:10. > :23:19.people can think about it. In this instance, we are beating as to when
:23:19. > :23:22.the Nationalists will respond to this and I expect that, quite soon.
:23:22. > :23:29.The United Kingdom Government is suggesting that Scotland could not
:23:29. > :23:39.survive a banking failure. Is that not the case? Until we see the paper
:23:39. > :23:41.
:23:41. > :23:48.from tomorrow, of course, it is open to debate, but I think it is better
:23:48. > :23:55.for the Treasury to raise these issues and the Scottish Nationalists
:23:55. > :24:00.have to be able to respond to this. Does this touch on a near when we
:24:00. > :24:06.talk about the banking bailouts. people get nervous about the
:24:06. > :24:12.possibility? The arguments are very well timed, in terms of playing on
:24:12. > :24:17.the fears of people. The banking crisis was caused by a situation
:24:17. > :24:20.over which the Scottish cup and did not have any control. It is a
:24:20. > :24:28.dangerous game, in terms of looking at where responsibility lay in the
:24:28. > :24:31.first place. The idea of this paper is to be compelling cause concern in
:24:31. > :24:38.fear for those reading it, but the reality is that we do not know what
:24:39. > :24:44.is to happen. A lot of it is pie in the sky. A lot of it is, if this
:24:44. > :24:51.happens then this could happen. A lot of it draws comparisons with
:24:51. > :24:58.Iceland and Cyprus. They are saying the capital rate of what the banks
:24:58. > :25:04.hold in being similar. If there was another banking crisis, Scotland
:25:04. > :25:09.would be any worse position because they have a 1000% of the capita in
:25:09. > :25:19.terms of what the ankle per person in Scotland. But that is an effort
:25:19. > :25:21.
:25:21. > :25:28.and but scenario. That is pie in the sky. The paper is coming out
:25:28. > :25:32.tomorrow. On Tuesday, the Cameron economic strategy will be released
:25:32. > :25:37.by the Scottish Nationalists. It obviously paint a rosy picture.
:25:37. > :25:44.Kenny Gibson was seeing it could unleash the potential of Scotland.
:25:44. > :25:50.Others are suggesting it is all about tax breaks? Yes, I have tried
:25:50. > :25:54.their luck at some aspects of it. There clearly is an incentive on tax
:25:54. > :26:00.breaks, but we have the likes of tuners is concerned, I can
:26:00. > :26:10.understand that. It could do with the likes of a boost. The likes of
:26:10. > :26:11.
:26:11. > :26:18.food and drink, salmon, W. As Lucy says, that is a lot of pie in the
:26:18. > :26:25.sky. You have to take a lot of this on trust. There has got to be a very
:26:25. > :26:32.convincing argument, which I have not quite yet seen. There seems a
:26:32. > :26:39.lot of assertion that are and you have to buy into that. Perhaps the
:26:39. > :26:47.make the a bigger thing on Tuesday? Yes, I think there is a sense of
:26:47. > :26:57.that. The first sheet that he read fairly anodyne. It is talking about
:26:57. > :26:57.
:26:57. > :27:02.Scotland spend on public sectors. It is seeing it is 42% of GDP, as
:27:02. > :27:08.opposed to roughly 45% in England and Wales. They are also trying to
:27:08. > :27:16.say they are not a one trick pony, it is not just about oil in the
:27:16. > :27:21.North Sea. They are talking about the money generated by the likes of
:27:21. > :27:25.food and drink and the likes of restaurants and even whiskey
:27:25. > :27:31.industry. But again, the ad again based on this idea that this could
:27:31. > :27:39.happen if this thing happens. People may look at this and say this
:27:39. > :27:43.research is done by the Scottish government, so how can we convinced
:27:44. > :27:48.either way about either of these documents. If you're looking at
:27:48. > :27:54.undecided voters, you want completely objective, which neither
:27:54. > :27:59.of these papers are. You need someone to come able to say this is
:27:59. > :28:05.how much we will have under independence, this is how much we
:28:05. > :28:09.will not have. Just they tend to look at these headlines. This is
:28:09. > :28:14.this divide in the Church of Scotland that we have just been
:28:14. > :28:18.talking about. You were talking about this great debate which will
:28:18. > :28:25.take place tomorrow. It will be fascinating to hear the final result
:28:25. > :28:28.of this. I do not think the public really realise how fantastic these
:28:28. > :28:34.debates are. They are full of passion and full of intellectual
:28:34. > :28:42.debate. I think the government has stepped in to this argument quite
:28:42. > :28:49.interestingly. The gay marriage proposals are different from the
:28:49. > :28:54.subject up for debate tomorrow. But the church as Paul opposes gay
:28:54. > :29:04.marriage. It will be interesting to see what the government intervention
:29:04. > :29:05.
:29:05. > :29:10.in recent times while actually alter the debate. The church could argue
:29:10. > :29:15.that if they go in favour of same-sex clergy that would be the
:29:15. > :29:25.first step of the way and then, inevitably, we will go towards gay
:29:25. > :29:33.marriage. There is a poignant on both sides of that argument. There
:29:33. > :29:37.is a four and against argument. is this debate feud in the whole of
:29:37. > :29:45.Scotland, the wider Scotland? Does the Church of Scotland still have
:29:45. > :29:52.any impact? I think there are roughly 500,000 people in the
:29:52. > :29:57.congregation. It is falling, by about 15,000 last year. I think the
:29:57. > :30:03.debate itself is going to be very tense and exciting, but as to the
:30:03. > :30:06.impact on a wider Scotland, I think it will be interesting. There is a
:30:06. > :30:10.slightly different debate, there is this connection between the
:30:10. > :30:16.legislation going through in Holyrood regarding same-sex
:30:16. > :30:22.marriage. I think about be exciting but equally whatever decision they
:30:22. > :30:32.make, it will then go out to all the presbytery's Arran Scotland. It will
:30:32. > :30:33.
:30:33. > :30:40.not be a snap decision. The good thing is that it will be debated in
:30:41. > :30:49.public. I think a lot of religious people are very unhappy about gay
:30:49. > :30:54.marriage and that the date has not really had a big public forum. It is
:30:54. > :30:56.an important debate for that reason. I often feel that the proponents for
:30:57. > :31:05.gay marriage do not have a great deal of respect for religious
:31:05. > :31:11.opinion. I think this debate will show, on both sides, and deeply this
:31:11. > :31:16.issue is felt. I think that is important. On a lighter note to
:31:16. > :31:26.finish with, no Liberal Democrats on the programme today. They are all on
:31:26. > :31:27.
:31:27. > :31:32.the Orkney Islands celebrating the birth of Joe Grimond. It is the
:31:32. > :31:42.100th anniversary. The Aral celebrating the birth of the
:31:42. > :31:50.
:31:51. > :31:58.founding father. Hopefully, the Democrats on Orkney and Shetland are
:31:58. > :32:07.proposing that they should be independent! Both of you, thank you
:32:07. > :32:11.very much for joining me. That is all from the us this week.