:00:38. > :00:46.Maureen, folks. Welcome to the programme. David Cameron should out
:00:46. > :00:52.his scheme to help house-buyers. Is he merely stoking a new house price
:00:52. > :00:55.bubble? As the activists gather in Manchester for their party
:00:55. > :00:59.conference, we will have the results of an exclusive survey of Tory
:00:59. > :01:05.councillors. I will be speaking to William Hague. Ed Miliband has made
:01:05. > :01:11.headlines with his pledge to freeze energy prices for 20 months but as
:01:11. > :01:17.the new policy stack? Caroline Flint to intimate. -- joins me. And on
:01:17. > :01:20.Sunday Politics Scotland: A plum slot for the Scottish Conservative
:01:20. > :01:22.leader at conference - speaking before the PM. Do the Tories "get"
:01:22. > :01:37.Scotland ahead of the referendum? With me are a trio of top political
:01:37. > :01:44.commentators. All three will be With me are a trio of top political
:01:44. > :01:53.tweeting their thoughts, or in some cases just their thought through the
:01:53. > :01:56.show, using the hashtag #bbcsp. The Conservative Party conference gets
:01:56. > :02:01.under way in Manchester this afternoon. We have already been
:02:01. > :02:05.bombarded with a series of policy announcements, a tax break for
:02:05. > :02:09.married couples of up to £200 per year, more money on life extending
:02:09. > :02:12.cancer treatments and, last night, the news that the second stage of
:02:12. > :02:16.the Chancellor's Help To Buy scheme will start next week. That is
:02:16. > :02:19.brought forward from the start of next year. David Cameron says it is
:02:19. > :02:28.all about helping hard-working people. Right now, you can't get,
:02:28. > :02:32.it's very difficult to get, a 90% or 95% mortgage. That means a typical
:02:32. > :02:34.family with two people earning 20,000, 25,000, they are being
:02:34. > :02:39.asked, to buy an average house, they 20,000, 25,000, they are being
:02:39. > :02:43.are being asked to find a £40,000 deposit. They can afford the
:02:43. > :02:46.mortgage payment, but they can't get the mortgage. They can't buy their
:02:46. > :02:50.flat or house. As Prime Minister, I'm not going to stand back while
:02:50. > :02:53.people's aspirations to get on the housing ladder, to own their own
:02:53. > :02:58.flat or home, is being trashed. That is why we need to act. A predictable
:02:58. > :03:03.attempt by party leadership to kick-start the conference with
:03:03. > :03:07.eye-catching policies. The polls show a big bounce for Ed Miliband
:03:07. > :03:12.and the Labour Party, with decent numbers for UKIP. What do party
:03:12. > :03:17.activists think about David Cameron's leadership and the
:03:17. > :03:19.challenge posed by UKIP? Adam Fleming has been meeting Tory
:03:19. > :03:25.councillors as they travel to their party conference.
:03:25. > :03:28.For the Conservatives this weekend, all roads and trams lead to
:03:28. > :03:36.Manchester for their party conference, and as a scene setter we
:03:36. > :03:41.asked ComRes to survey councillors are Finland and Wales. Councillors
:03:41. > :03:45.asked ComRes to survey councillors like Tom, packing for conference at
:03:45. > :03:50.home in Wellingborough. Immigration is an issue for him. He thinks there
:03:50. > :03:54.are pros and cons. But we found that 54% of his colleagues feel
:03:54. > :04:00.immigration has had a negative impact on the UK. I think it
:04:00. > :04:02.reflects into this wider issue of our relationship with Europe. People
:04:02. > :04:08.are very concerned about the possible influx of ovarian and
:04:08. > :04:18.Romania emigrants. Obviously the issue of Europe is very big. --
:04:18. > :04:23.Ukrainian. His colleagues in Corby are worried about the rise of the UK
:04:23. > :04:26.Independence Party. In our survey, nearly a quarter of Conservative
:04:26. > :04:31.councillors thought that their party should make a pact with UKIP. The
:04:31. > :04:38.concern is, yes, will they take votes away from ourselves in 2015?
:04:38. > :04:43.If that happens, maybe we don't get back in. Maybe a partnership is the
:04:43. > :04:50.way to go. It depends what they want and we want. But we should be
:04:50. > :04:55.talking about them. A pact? Depends what they say, anything is possible.
:04:55. > :05:07.What would you like to see? Ideally, from my point of view, a national
:05:07. > :05:13.pact. David Cameron arrived in Manchester last night. Around the
:05:13. > :05:21.same time as these activists from London. I broke the news to them
:05:21. > :05:25.that in our survey just 26% of Tory councillors think that the prime
:05:25. > :05:31.ministers in touch with the lives of ordinary people. The same at all
:05:31. > :05:34.Conservatives, you don't judge people by their background. It's not
:05:34. > :05:37.where they come from, it is where they are going to. It is not a
:05:37. > :05:40.where they come from, it is where problem that he is a bit on the posh
:05:40. > :05:47.side? Cull you might describe him like that, I would not use those
:05:48. > :05:55.words. Explain your T-shirt, it is a phrase that a senior Cameron person
:05:55. > :05:58.is alleged to have used about you? It is a humorous way of letting the
:05:58. > :06:01.party now that we are here to say what we think. Members are
:06:01. > :06:06.important. We are not going away any time soon. A sentiment you will hear
:06:06. > :06:09.a lot at this conference, because just 22% of councillors in our
:06:09. > :06:16.survey said that David Cameron was any good at listening to the people
:06:16. > :06:21.that work hard for his party. That was Adam. Joining me now from the
:06:21. > :06:24.Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Foreign Secretary
:06:24. > :06:33.William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Over one in
:06:33. > :06:37.five Tory councillors in our survey support a pact with UKIP at the next
:06:37. > :06:41.election. Why do you think that is? If it is one in five, it means a
:06:41. > :06:46.large majority did not want a pact with UKIP at the next election. They
:06:46. > :06:49.have noticed that UKIP, in local elections, has been receiving votes,
:06:49. > :06:52.some of which would otherwise have been for the Conservatives. I think
:06:52. > :06:58.we have to make sure that people understand that at a general
:06:58. > :07:00.election they are choosing between a Conservative and Labour Government,
:07:00. > :07:06.as David Cameron as Prime Minister or Ed Miliband. If people want to
:07:06. > :07:09.get a referendum on Europe, the only way to do that is to have David
:07:09. > :07:13.Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a general election is different from
:07:13. > :07:17.the local government perspective. It is pretty unusual, some might say
:07:17. > :07:20.unprecedented, for a large chunk of one of the big parties in this
:07:20. > :07:23.country to want to go into coalition one of the big parties in this
:07:23. > :07:31.with a smaller party before an election. When has that ever
:07:31. > :07:35.happened? Looking at your survey, three times as many didn't want to
:07:35. > :07:38.do that. As ever, with a survey, with statistics, you can highlight
:07:38. > :07:43.it whichever way around you want to. The point is, we are not having
:07:43. > :07:49.pacts with other parties, electoral pacts with other parties. You rule
:07:49. > :07:51.it out? That is not going to happen. What we do want is to have a pact
:07:51. > :07:56.it out? That is not going to happen. with the voters, if you like, as we
:07:56. > :08:00.have often done in the Conservative Party. We have won over the voters
:08:00. > :08:03.of other parties to support our policies and Prime Minister. That is
:08:03. > :08:07.important with those people that say they want to vote for UKIP. By
:08:07. > :08:12.default, they would produce a Labour government in the exact opposite of
:08:12. > :08:14.many of the things they intend, if they would otherwise vote
:08:14. > :08:19.Conservative and decide to vote for UKIP instead in a general election.
:08:19. > :08:25.That could help to produce a Labour government. The chairman of the 1922
:08:25. > :08:31.committee, the elected voice of Conservative backbenchers, he says
:08:31. > :08:35.your party should spell out what had once back from the European Union
:08:35. > :08:43.before next year's European actions. Do you agree? We will be spelling
:08:43. > :08:48.out some things in the European elections. I will be talking about
:08:48. > :08:53.this later on today. For instance, about the need the UK and the
:08:53. > :08:59.European treaties the concept of ever closer union, a concept that in
:08:59. > :09:02.Britain we have never really believed in. We would like that to
:09:02. > :09:06.be changed, with all of the consequences that would flow from
:09:06. > :09:09.that. We will be setting out the examples and principles of the
:09:09. > :09:14.changes we want to say. Certainly over the next year, not only before
:09:14. > :09:18.the European actions but the general election, if you are saying, let
:09:18. > :09:22.have the exact list of anything that we are going to be able to
:09:22. > :09:26.negotiate, that is difficult because there will be a negotiation of a new
:09:26. > :09:29.deal in Europe if David Cameron as Prime Minister after the next
:09:29. > :09:37.election. To some extent, that has to be negotiated. Only 11% of your
:09:37. > :09:40.own councillors feel that people in their area think that George Osborne
:09:40. > :09:46.is in touch with ordinary people. Why is he seemed to be so aloof? It
:09:46. > :09:53.is not for me to explain why people say what they say in surveys. The
:09:53. > :09:56.important thing is what we are delivering for the country. What
:09:57. > :10:02.George Osborne is delivering his renewed economic growth. 1.4 million
:10:02. > :10:08.new jobs in the private sector, help for hard-working people, by reducing
:10:08. > :10:12.the tax for 25 million of them. The Help To Buy scheme that we are
:10:12. > :10:17.highlighting today. That is what really matters to people, actually,
:10:17. > :10:20.I think you will find. Let's talk about helping ordinary people. Ed
:10:20. > :10:28.Miliband is guilty freeze energy prices. What are you going to do
:10:28. > :10:36.about energy prices, we already asked energy companies to put people
:10:36. > :10:45.on their lowest tariffs. This has not been amended. -- implemented.
:10:45. > :10:51.Why not? This is going to happen within this government. It is going
:10:51. > :10:58.to happen within this government when the... Why hasn't it happened
:10:59. > :11:02.now? People are suffering now from rising energy prices. It has not
:11:02. > :11:07.happened because my colleagues have been implimenting it. In the case of
:11:07. > :11:10.Ed Miliband's policy, if you are asking why it has not yet happened
:11:10. > :11:16.under this Government, it didn't even survive a few our's scrutiny in
:11:16. > :11:19.opposition. In a few hours he had to concede that if there was a big
:11:19. > :11:23.change in oil prices then the policy would not work. The trouble is, it
:11:23. > :11:32.would dry up some of the investment in the energy industry. I don't
:11:32. > :11:37.think it is a credible promise. For a party that presided over council
:11:37. > :11:47.tax bills doubling in the next government, -- last government, it's
:11:47. > :11:50.not very credible. Why is George Osborne going against the European
:11:50. > :11:54.Union to protect banker bonuses? Well, we don't want to see the
:11:54. > :11:58.European treaties used in a way that they should not be used. It's not
:11:58. > :12:02.necessarily over this particular issue. It is over the power that the
:12:02. > :12:07.European Union has over our lives and over this country. Can the
:12:07. > :12:08.bankers look after themselves? We should be able to decide those
:12:09. > :12:17.bankers look after themselves? We things in our own country. We have
:12:17. > :12:21.never signed up to such matters in European institutions. If you allow
:12:21. > :12:23.one thing that wasn't meant to be decided to be decided, you find
:12:23. > :12:26.one thing that wasn't meant to be there are another ten or 20 things
:12:26. > :12:32.that affect many other people. We are very vigilant about what we call
:12:32. > :12:36.competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was
:12:36. > :12:40.meant to have. That is one of the reasons why people do want a
:12:40. > :12:44.referendum, do want a new deal in Europe. That is what we intend to
:12:44. > :12:51.give them. Let's look at in competence creep. A big city
:12:51. > :12:56.institution, ICAP, fined for fixing the LIBOR rates. The founder of that
:12:56. > :13:00.company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it
:13:00. > :13:05.back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own
:13:05. > :13:10.money to the Conservative Party. Which he made out of ICAP. As people
:13:10. > :13:14.have to other parties, people are free to do that and they should be
:13:14. > :13:19.free to do that. I am not aware of any plan for that to be repaid.
:13:19. > :13:23.Because you can't afford to. Let's recap this. We have seen Tory MPs
:13:23. > :13:26.parrot propaganda lines from the energy companies this week. We have
:13:26. > :13:29.the Chancellor going to court energy companies this week. We have
:13:29. > :13:32.fight for unlimited banker bonuses. We have a top Tory donor the centre
:13:32. > :13:36.fight for unlimited banker bonuses. of yet another city scandal. Ed
:13:36. > :13:39.Miliband is right when he says you lot are on the side of the vested
:13:39. > :13:47.interests so the rich and powerful, isn't he? Well, again, look at the
:13:47. > :13:53.record. I just did! 1.4 million extra jobs in the private sector, 25
:13:53. > :13:56.million people with a tax cut, a Help To Buy scheme which is going to
:13:57. > :14:00.help so many people, particularly young people have the house that
:14:00. > :14:04.they need and deserve for the future. Council tax bills held down,
:14:05. > :14:09.welfare reform so that it pays to work. Actually, this is a government
:14:09. > :14:11.achieving things for hard-working people and that will be highlighted
:14:11. > :14:25.to this conference. While President Laugharne he's
:14:25. > :14:32.talking about peace, the Iranians are speeding up their nuclear
:14:32. > :14:37.weapons programme. -- is talking. It would be hard to say from week
:14:37. > :14:43.to week whether it is speeding up or slowing down but they are
:14:43. > :14:48.continuing with it. That is why we say the new message - the new words
:14:48. > :14:52.- from Iranian leadership are very welcome. I said that to the Foreign
:14:52. > :14:57.Minister in New York over the last few days but it is the actions that
:14:57. > :15:01.will count. At the moment, the nuclear programme continues. We
:15:01. > :15:05.have agreed to commence negotiations on that and that will
:15:05. > :15:10.be a very important test as to whether actions will match the
:15:10. > :15:15.words. When will we know it if we are being strung along? He has
:15:15. > :15:20.strung as a long in the past as a nuclear weapons negotiator. When
:15:20. > :15:25.will we know if he is not just doing that again? Over the next few
:15:25. > :15:30.weeks, it will be a very important time. He has said there should be
:15:30. > :15:34.more transparency over the Iranian nuclear programme. It is not
:15:34. > :15:40.transparent in many regards at the moment. The atomic agency is asking
:15:40. > :15:44.for information that is not being given. One test is, in the coming
:15:44. > :15:49.weeks, will they give more information? The information that
:15:49. > :15:53.the international of authority is asking for about their nuclear
:15:53. > :15:59.programme. We will be able to form a view of this in the coming weeks
:15:59. > :16:03.or months. It is important we test their new willingness to talk to us
:16:03. > :16:07.and negotiate with us. It is important to find out whether they
:16:07. > :16:12.are serious about it. You are asking, is the nuclear programme
:16:12. > :16:15.really continuing? Are they really going to be realistic about
:16:15. > :16:20.negotiations and offer something they have not offer before?
:16:20. > :16:28.Speaking of being strung along, what sanctions would President
:16:28. > :16:34.Assad face if, in six months - the Year, Syria still has a chemical
:16:34. > :16:41.weapons arsenal. In the resolution we voted through the UN Security
:16:41. > :16:44.Council on Friday night, is the commitment that the Security
:16:44. > :16:50.Council will take measures under Chapter seven of the UN Charter in
:16:50. > :16:56.the event of non-compliance. Does that allow full force? I did not
:16:56. > :17:00.catch that. Does that allow for force? It is similar to the
:17:00. > :17:06.Security Council resolution about Iraq, which most people concluded
:17:06. > :17:13.in not allow full force. It does not specify that. It talks about
:17:13. > :17:18.terms seven of the charter. That is a message of the whole UN Security
:17:18. > :17:24.Council that there will be measures - there will be consequences - if
:17:24. > :17:29.the Assad regime does not comply. Russia has a lot riding on this. It
:17:29. > :17:33.has a big commitment. I have spent a lot of time at my Russian
:17:34. > :17:38.counterpart over the last week. Russia has said, this is something
:17:38. > :17:43.you will have to do. We will work with Russia and others very closely
:17:43. > :17:49.to check there is compliance will this resolution. Given the progress
:17:49. > :17:53.that has been made, you must be very glad that the British House of
:17:53. > :18:06.Commons stopped your rash to force against Syria. -- rush. The reason
:18:06. > :18:12.Commons stopped your rash to force has happened is because there was a
:18:12. > :18:18.credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it
:18:18. > :18:22.through Congress. They have not had the vote in Congress. There is no
:18:22. > :18:27.other explanation as to why the policy changed. It was because
:18:27. > :18:33.there was a debate about military action in the West that the policy
:18:33. > :18:37.changed on theirs. That is why it changed. We were not in a rush for
:18:38. > :18:41.military action. The boat put to the House of Commons was to have
:18:41. > :18:44.another Aotearoa after the inspectors reported. It was before
:18:44. > :18:50.we got to that point that the inspectors reported. It was before
:18:50. > :19:02.Russian and Syrian policy changed. We need to make sure that works in
:19:02. > :19:07.practice. Thank you. What do you make about this rushing forward
:19:07. > :19:11.with the help to buy scheme which was meant to start next year -
:19:11. > :19:20.coming forward mad to the next couple of weeks? I think it is a
:19:20. > :19:23.terrible policy. The Treasury Select Committee, Perez a
:19:23. > :19:28.fundamental problem with the Government having an interest in
:19:28. > :19:33.mortgage lending. -- there is a fundamental problem. It should have
:19:33. > :19:38.been set much lower to exclude London and the South East where
:19:39. > :19:44.houses are dramatically overvalued. Many economists think freezing
:19:44. > :19:49.energy prices is a terrible policy. These policies can be popular. If
:19:49. > :19:53.you have no chance of getting a deposit, the Government will make
:19:53. > :19:57.that possible because it will guarantee a big chunk of the
:19:57. > :20:01.deposit. Do not forget George Osborne tried every single lever.
:20:01. > :20:07.It looked like he could not do anything to get the economy moving.
:20:07. > :20:13.It is moving. They have pulled it forward and there are signs it is
:20:13. > :20:17.recovering. The reason why they are doing this is they want to show
:20:17. > :20:21.this week at the conference there are real sort of understandable
:20:21. > :20:26.issues you can explain very simply that really up going to improve
:20:26. > :20:32.people's lives. The Conservatives were slightly spooked by Ed
:20:33. > :20:38.Miliband's speech last week. The language used by David Cameron this
:20:38. > :20:47.morning was that the tax policy was nuts. Much more cautious and --
:20:47. > :20:52.language about the energy price freeze. They are nervous that Ed
:20:52. > :20:56.Miliband may be touching a nerve on that one. What we will get this
:20:56. > :21:02.week, I suggest, his Tory populism to counter Miliband populism. I
:21:02. > :21:04.week, I suggest, his Tory populism think we will see that and it will
:21:05. > :21:10.be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will
:21:11. > :21:18.about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the
:21:18. > :21:23.political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities
:21:23. > :21:26.of energy prices or living standards, things that are some way
:21:26. > :21:31.below that picture, I do not think they can win a bidding war with the
:21:31. > :21:36.Labour Party. It is about borrowing against a party that stands for the
:21:36. > :21:39.rectitude at a macro economic against a party that stands for the
:21:39. > :21:42.It is about getting the conversation back to where
:21:42. > :21:47.It is about getting the before the Labour conference, which
:21:47. > :21:54.is unemployment, GDP growth and the warming economic picture. That does
:21:54. > :21:58.not pay energy bills. Does not sound that the Tories have anything
:21:58. > :22:02.not pay energy bills. Does not to counter the price freeze. -- it
:22:03. > :22:07.does not sound. They have had a week to think about a great attack
:22:08. > :22:12.line and they do not add anything. They have just said, the lights
:22:12. > :22:27.will go out. Now they're saying, it will not
:22:27. > :22:33.the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike in
:22:33. > :22:36.energy prices, he would not be able to keep his freeze in those
:22:36. > :22:45.circumstances. to keep his freeze in those
:22:45. > :22:45.credibility test. It to keep his freeze in those
:22:45. > :22:45.politically acute announcement but it is about credibility. Being seen
:22:45. > :22:52.as serious and grown-up is worth it is about credibility. Being seen
:22:52. > :22:56.more than any burst of popularity. My worry about the announcement is
:22:56. > :23:01.more than any burst of popularity. with the election campaign, it
:23:01. > :23:10.begins to lose credibility, begins to seem a banana republic. It looks
:23:10. > :23:14.a lot less wise than it did last week. I disagree. Every time energy
:23:14. > :23:19.bills go up and they will continue to go up, it will be a reminder of
:23:19. > :23:24.how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy
:23:24. > :23:28.prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that
:23:28. > :23:33.was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may
:23:33. > :23:40.be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving up
:23:40. > :23:45.the cost of fuel is China and India. Ed Miliband, great man that he is,
:23:45. > :23:52.I am not sure he can take on the people Sammir on that one. How dare
:23:52. > :23:55.you! -- the People's Army. Ed Miliband came out fighting at
:23:55. > :23:58.Labour's Conference in Brighton last week. Dogged by criticism over
:23:58. > :24:00.the summer of his leadership style and lack of policies, Mr Miliband
:24:00. > :24:03.tried to demonstrate his strength of character with a series of bold
:24:03. > :24:09.announcements, and attempted to position himself on the side of
:24:09. > :24:13.ordinary Brits. The Labour leader told party members he would stand
:24:13. > :24:16.up to the strong and take on the vested interests that hold back our
:24:16. > :24:20.up to the strong and take on the economy. In a speech in which he
:24:20. > :24:22.jokingly referred to himself as an action hero, Mr Miliband promised
:24:22. > :24:26.to switch the forthcoming business action hero, Mr Miliband promised
:24:26. > :24:30.tax cut from large firms to smaller businesses. He said he would force
:24:30. > :24:35.big firms to train at an apprentice every time they bring in a worker
:24:35. > :24:40.from outside the EU. He hinted that increasing the minimum wage would
:24:40. > :24:47.be increased. He bowed to take on developers with a use it or lose it
:24:47. > :24:50.threat to landowners and pledged to build 200,000 homes each year by
:24:50. > :24:56.threat to landowners and pledged to 2020. He promised to freeze energy
:24:56. > :24:59.prices and reset the energy market. The next Labour government will
:24:59. > :25:04.freeze gas and electricity prices until the start of 2017. That
:25:04. > :25:09.freeze gas and electricity prices provoked a rash of headlines -
:25:09. > :25:14.hailing the return of red Ed macro. It has also given him a spike in
:25:14. > :25:16.the polls. And Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline Flint
:25:16. > :25:25.joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:25:25. > :25:34.Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In
:25:34. > :25:40.what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left
:25:40. > :25:45.behind in 2010? We have six companies that dominate the energy
:25:45. > :25:52.sector. It is the same. They generate energy, and sell it on to
:25:52. > :25:55.us. What we recognise and Ed Miliband recognised when he was
:25:56. > :25:58.Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company
:25:58. > :26:01.Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,
:26:01. > :26:05.all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms of a
:26:05. > :26:08.warm front programme and everything else has not dealt with the
:26:08. > :26:15.fundamental problem that the Horsell market is too secretive and
:26:15. > :26:19.it is too much about such supply. - - the wholesale market. We have
:26:19. > :26:25.been raising with the Government in a co-operative way the argument for
:26:26. > :26:32.resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which
:26:32. > :26:37.prices have gone up. Labour put wholesale and retail together. It
:26:37. > :26:40.was the start this dates back to Margaret Thatcher and the
:26:40. > :26:45.privatisation. We took some reforms to reset the market. We have
:26:45. > :26:50.realised it was not working and it was broken and we need to reset it.
:26:50. > :26:55.Ed Miliband will be the first to say we did not do enough from 2005
:26:55. > :27:00.onwards. Let's have a look at what happened to energy prices under the
:27:00. > :27:08.Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up
:27:08. > :27:14.by 48%. The market was broken and the Government as well. From 2005,
:27:14. > :27:21.we saw prices biking as wholesale prices went up. The tick action on
:27:21. > :27:28.the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we
:27:28. > :27:33.took action on per warm front programme. Trying to do things
:27:33. > :27:39.around social obligations needs to be looked at. Gas and electricity
:27:39. > :27:43.bills are high partially as a consequence of the market you
:27:43. > :27:49.presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look
:27:49. > :27:55.at the breakdown of dual fuel - gas and electricity bill. -- let's have
:27:56. > :28:02.a look. The supply costs of getting it to us and so on. The policies
:28:02. > :28:06.that were introduced by your government - Green levies - are
:28:06. > :28:14.adding almost 10% to has told energy bills. £112 on average bill
:28:14. > :28:24.of 1188. You have put the bill up. Eight -- social and green
:28:24. > :28:29.obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.
:28:29. > :28:35.Overwhelmingly, looking at your graph and the figures I have,
:28:35. > :28:41.wholesale costs are worth more than half. What we have seen, based on
:28:41. > :28:49.figures we now have, in Eni macro, a wholesale costs fell by 39% and
:28:49. > :28:54.that was not reflected in our bills. Do you have plans to do anything
:28:54. > :29:00.about the £112? If you took that off, you could cut bills by 10%
:29:00. > :29:04.tomorrow. Or if you were in power. It is important that restimulate
:29:04. > :29:12.the opportunity to grow clean energy. It -- we stimulate. If we
:29:12. > :29:15.do not have clean energy, we will be beholden for ever-more to fossil
:29:15. > :29:20.do not have clean energy, we will fuels that are depleting. It will
:29:21. > :29:25.create jobs and bring in investment will start in the last few years,
:29:25. > :29:31.we have seen investment in renewable energy half. -- in
:29:31. > :29:35.investment. If I could go back to competition in the markets,
:29:35. > :29:39.whatever advance there are, looking at whether the money raised through
:29:39. > :29:44.energy companies to deliver energy efficiency, is that doing as well
:29:44. > :29:49.as it might? Could it be better delivered by another agency? They
:29:49. > :29:53.are fair questions. We need to get ahead of that and look at the
:29:53. > :29:57.market. Can we make the market will competitive make sure when there is
:29:57. > :30:02.downward pressure on wholesale prices, that is reflected on our
:30:02. > :30:04.bills? That is the bigger picture argument. Also the freeze to help
:30:04. > :30:17.people during that period. As you complain about the energy
:30:17. > :30:21.prices, it was as a result of your actions. Ed Miliband introduced the
:30:21. > :30:23.climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for
:30:23. > :30:29.decarbonisation. He said, we are prices would have to rise to pay for
:30:29. > :30:32.going to minimise the costs as much as possible, but it is true there is
:30:32. > :30:37.not a low-cost energy future out there. It is important that we
:30:37. > :30:40.address the pressures on bills, but also recognise that if we are going
:30:40. > :30:42.to build a better future where we can have more home-grown British
:30:42. > :30:48.energy and, in the long-term, cheaper, we need to invest in
:30:48. > :30:52.renewables. Truth is it is about the market. I acknowledge I acknowledge
:30:52. > :30:59.eyes what you say about the 112. I am not going to disagree. But
:30:59. > :31:08.wholesale prices have fallen. They fell in 2009, we got a reduction in
:31:08. > :31:13.bills of 5%. Which are saying that the big companies are overcharging
:31:13. > :31:15.customers. We are seeing profits going up, but we haven't seen the
:31:15. > :31:20.amount of investment suggested by going up, but we haven't seen the
:31:20. > :31:24.those profits coming through. But that £125 is going to get worse,
:31:24. > :31:29.because your leader said in his speech in Brighton that Labour will
:31:29. > :31:33.have a world leading commitment in Government to take out all carbon
:31:33. > :31:37.from energy generation by 2030. That is not that far away. By 2030, no
:31:37. > :31:43.more coal generation, no more gas generation, only much more expensive
:31:43. > :31:47.nuclear and much more expensive renewables. It cannot be done
:31:47. > :31:53.without bills going up even further? Hang on a second. The 2030 target to
:31:53. > :32:11.remove carbon from the electricity supply, we have said we
:32:11. > :32:20.your commitment is to get rid of all carbon from power generation by
:32:20. > :32:27.2013. Only electricity. So you still have gas? We will need gas for
:32:28. > :32:32.decades to come. We will still need gas the decades to come, we are only
:32:32. > :32:37.talking about electricity supply. You will be increasingly dependent
:32:37. > :32:42.on expensive nuclear, EDF are currently demanding the double of
:32:42. > :32:46.the market price, and renewables which are four times the market
:32:46. > :32:54.price, our bills are going up under your policies. And the Coalition 's
:32:54. > :32:58.policies, too. On the clear, we did take a decision that we needed to
:32:58. > :33:03.revitalise our nuclear power sector help us meet our targets in terms of
:33:03. > :33:07.clean energy and make sure it could do the heavy lifting. Totally agree.
:33:08. > :33:12.The government at the present time are engaged in discussions with EDF
:33:12. > :33:16.about what the price should be, I don't know what that's going to be.
:33:16. > :33:19.It's important that stands up to scrutiny in terms of value for
:33:19. > :33:25.money. But I go back to our market reforms. We won't just have a
:33:25. > :33:30.contract the difference for nuclear, we will have it for renewables as
:33:30. > :33:34.well. That makes it even more important that we have a transparent
:33:34. > :33:38.markets in which energy is bought and sold so we can have a riposte
:33:38. > :33:43.reference price in which those issues can be judged against. --
:33:44. > :33:47.robust. Michael Gove recognised at the other night that the market
:33:47. > :33:52.wasn't working, the Daily Telegraph use the term cosy cartel, and we
:33:52. > :33:56.have former advisers to David Cameron and former ministers saying
:33:56. > :34:00.something needs to be done and I'm surprised David Cameron doesn't
:34:00. > :34:04.acknowledge that. You are going to freeze prices for 20 months and then
:34:04. > :34:12.you will, with a new regulator. Will that regulator have the power to
:34:12. > :34:17.control gas and electricity prices? What the regulator will have existed
:34:17. > :34:23.at a rate responsibility to monitor the wholesale cost will get doesn't
:34:23. > :34:27.have. -- statutory responsibility. As result, it will have the power
:34:28. > :34:31.that if the wholesale prices fall, it can force the energy companies,
:34:31. > :34:38.if they don't pass on reductions in bills, but it will not have what we
:34:38. > :34:43.see in some parts of the EU, in 15 countries, they have a variety of
:34:43. > :34:47.price controls which at things below inflation and what have you. In
:34:47. > :34:52.France, Spain, Italy. It won't do that, because we are looking at a
:34:52. > :34:55.temporary price freeze to reflect the reduction in wholesale prices in
:34:56. > :35:00.the last few years to give the British public some respite from
:35:00. > :35:07.ever climbing bills while we get our reforms, because of the end double
:35:07. > :35:10.this, what we want is a competitive market that is more transparent. But
:35:10. > :35:15.we do believe it is right that we need a regulator that has much more
:35:15. > :35:20.of a role in making sure that market is working effectively. Are you
:35:20. > :35:27.accusing the energy companies of profiteering? I am accusing them of
:35:27. > :35:30.overcharging, yes, of overcharging, of not passing on wholesale
:35:30. > :35:37.reduction in costs to their customers. I am accusing the
:35:37. > :35:41.companies of making profits in a way which undermines the consumer.
:35:41. > :35:47.Because I do believe that the level of profits that they have passed on
:35:47. > :35:51.to their shareholders is high compared to the reductions they
:35:51. > :35:58.could have provided the consumers. Let's look at the evidence. In the
:35:58. > :36:12.last fiscal year, they made combined earnings of £4 billion.
:36:12. > :36:21.Where in these figures is the profiteering? My figures, their
:36:21. > :36:28.reporting to the regulator and to work done by other organisations,
:36:28. > :36:32.show that in Centrica 's case, they have something like an eight button
:36:32. > :36:35.to return on profit margins on the retail side, that goes up to
:36:35. > :36:41.something like 24% on their generation side. They have passed
:36:41. > :36:46.on, in terms of their profits, something like 74% through dividends
:36:46. > :36:53.to their shareholders... But they're just invested £3 billion! I am just
:36:53. > :37:00.reporting the information that has been passed on to the regulator. But
:37:00. > :37:08.they have never accused them of profiteering. I have... Can I do is
:37:08. > :37:13.finish my point. It is acknowledged that across the sector, across the
:37:13. > :37:17.big six, something like 60% of the profits have gone over to
:37:17. > :37:23.shareholders as dividends, in the guise of Centrica, it is 74%. In
:37:23. > :37:26.that example, even though they have their highest profit margins, they
:37:26. > :37:33.have invested the least. So I think it is fair to question... None of us
:37:33. > :37:41.really know what the true price of energy is and that is why our policy
:37:41. > :37:45.to reform is necessary. Finally, if they continue putting prices up,
:37:45. > :37:49.even after your price freeze, if they don't invest in the way they
:37:49. > :37:54.do, do you rule out wholesale nationalisation? Absolutely, I want
:37:54. > :37:55.a more competitive market and that is why we are resetting
:37:55. > :38:10.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up:
:38:10. > :38:13."Better Together" or Better Apart? We've heard from Yes Scotland, now
:38:13. > :38:24.it's the turn of the pro-union campaign as both sides tussle over
:38:24. > :38:27.who will debate with whom. I think I will keep my eyes set on the Prime
:38:27. > :38:32.Minister, on the organ grinder, in this particular campaign. You could
:38:32. > :38:38.hardly do it with somebody who has no control over these issues. Nice
:38:38. > :38:43.try, but no one is going to fall for it. We'll put that to the leader of
:38:43. > :38:46.the "Better Together" campaign, Alistair Darling. And a prime slot
:38:46. > :38:49.for the Conservative leader Ruth Davidson at the party's conference
:38:49. > :39:00.in Manchester - do the Tories now "get" Scotland? Two weeks ago we
:39:00. > :39:03.heard from the First Minister as the one year countdown started to the
:39:03. > :39:07.referendum. With 353 days to go now, we'll talk to his main opponent. But
:39:07. > :39:10.the two men won't speak to each other as the argument rages about a
:39:10. > :39:13.TV debate showdown. With that issue and more, here's Steven Godden with
:39:13. > :39:21.his "capital look" at ""Better Together"". Take a stroll through
:39:21. > :39:24.the centre of Edinburgh and almost everywhere you turn, there is an
:39:24. > :39:30.unmistakable landmark, but the political climate, what you see is
:39:30. > :39:35.great piles of and mortar, and it depends on your own perspective.
:39:35. > :39:39.Take the castle. An early stronghold of Scottish kings, today it
:39:39. > :39:42.generates millions as a tourist attraction, but the centuries it has
:39:42. > :39:48.also been home to British army soldiers, assemble, ""Better
:39:48. > :39:55.Together"" supporters say, of the protection and security offered by
:39:55. > :39:59.the union. The big banking institutions were at the centre of
:39:59. > :40:05.the recent financial collapse, but supporters of the union would argue
:40:05. > :40:10.it is -- its interconnectedness helped people whether the storm and
:40:10. > :40:14.it would do again if necessary. With the year to go milestone having
:40:14. > :40:17.passed by with much fanfare, campaigners are taking their message
:40:17. > :40:22.to the doorsteps in a bid to hammer it home. The main message we have
:40:23. > :40:27.seen from "Better Together" is it has the rest of both worlds, at the
:40:27. > :40:29.moment this is not a debate between Scotland and the rest of the UK, it
:40:29. > :40:32.moment this is not a debate between is a bait here about the best future
:40:32. > :40:38.for Scotland and from our point of view, we have the best of both
:40:38. > :40:42.worlds, we can take decisions here in Scotland but we are part of a
:40:42. > :40:52.whole, a community of nations across these islands will stop stop.
:40:52. > :40:57.Supporters of independence have a different perspective. According to
:40:57. > :41:02.them, Scotland is being led down a dark path that plays on a fear of
:41:02. > :41:04.the unknown, the accusation is that the "Better Together" campaign are
:41:04. > :41:09.attempting to scare voters by suggesting that in an independent
:41:09. > :41:16.Scotland, a fright looks round every corner. Accused of being short on
:41:16. > :41:21.answers, yes Scotland say the upcoming paper will flesh out the
:41:21. > :41:26.campaign for independence insisting project fear, as it has been dubbed,
:41:26. > :41:29.is destined to fail. The important thing is, get the government you
:41:29. > :41:37.vote for in Scotland, we don't often get that. Set the agenda, take part
:41:37. > :41:42.in democracy, and let's make your community and your country what you
:41:42. > :41:46.want it to be. I think that's the bonus that people are tapping into.
:41:46. > :41:52.As for the debate itself, something of an awkward triangle has emerged.
:41:52. > :41:55.Alistair Darling, the leader of the better campaign in pain, wants to
:41:55. > :42:01.debate with Alex Salmond, who says he's not interested, and he says he
:42:01. > :42:04.wants to debate with the organ grinder, David Cameron. This week,
:42:04. > :42:10.David Cameron has written to Alex Salmond says he won't face him and
:42:10. > :42:13.he should face Alistair Darling instead. One of those questions that
:42:13. > :42:17.need to be answered ahead of the big Western next September.
:42:17. > :42:20.I'm now joined live from Edinburgh by the former Labour Chancellor and
:42:20. > :42:27.leader of the "Better Together" campaign, Alistair Darling. Thanks
:42:27. > :42:33.for joining us. First, let's look at this TV debate issue. The Prime
:42:33. > :42:37.Minister, reiterating that he wouldn't debate with Alex Salmond
:42:37. > :42:41.and it was up to you to debate with him. But Alex Salmond says David
:42:41. > :42:46.Cameron is in an impossible position. He is willing to step in
:42:46. > :42:51.and take part in the debate but not actually debate the issue itself. We
:42:51. > :42:53.know what Alex Salmond is up to here, he wants to make this a
:42:53. > :42:59.contest between Scotland against England. People aren't going to fall
:43:00. > :43:03.for that. This is a debate we need to have within Scotland is to the
:43:03. > :43:09.future of our country. Where do we stand, where do we go from here?
:43:09. > :43:13.When Sami people get their information from television, it
:43:13. > :43:20.would be a huge mistake not to have a debate between those of us who
:43:20. > :43:23.live in Scotland, who have about on this referendum, as to the key
:43:23. > :43:30.issues, whether it is Europe, pensions, we saw bogus claims being
:43:30. > :43:36.made this week, all in relation to the currency of the future of our
:43:36. > :43:39.country. Alex Salmond 's problem is not David Cameron, it is that he is
:43:40. > :43:45.failing to convince the people of Scotland, it is an argument he needs
:43:45. > :43:49.to have within Scotland not outside. But who do you percent apart from
:43:49. > :43:53.the voters of Edinburgh South West? I am part of a campaign seeking to
:43:53. > :43:59.persuade people that we are stronger together as part of the UK. In this
:43:59. > :44:05.campaign there will be two opposing sides, "Better Together" against the
:44:06. > :44:09.SNP side. It is up to each of us to decide who we put forward but I can
:44:09. > :44:14.see what Alex Salmond is up to, he wants to make it at contest between
:44:14. > :44:18.Scotland and England, he wants to create divisions where there
:44:18. > :44:22.shouldn't be. Rather than continuing this silly posturing, he would be
:44:22. > :44:26.better to knuckle down join with us, speak to the broadcasters and see
:44:26. > :44:31.what we can arrange. Instead of calling it posturing that you not
:44:31. > :44:40.think it is natural progression from the two men signing the Edinburgh
:44:40. > :44:44.agreement? David Cameron has made clear that he regards this as being
:44:44. > :44:49.a matter of the people living in Scotland who are going to vote in
:44:49. > :44:54.the referendum next year. He has said it is up to the people of
:44:54. > :44:56.Scotland. Alex Salmond is saying he does not want to debate with the
:44:56. > :45:03.people of Scotland, he wants to debate with someone else. David
:45:03. > :45:07.Cameron has said he's not going to debate, so why doesn't he accept
:45:07. > :45:12.that, we should start dealing with issues that matter, like pensions.
:45:13. > :45:17.When you have Nicola Sturgeon saying that somehow we can retire earlier
:45:17. > :45:22.and it was affordable, but then admitted that she had no idea what
:45:22. > :45:25.the cost was, or when we discovered that Scottish schemes would have to
:45:25. > :45:30.be fully funded, this is one issue which the Scottish people deserve to
:45:30. > :45:34.have debated so that people can actually understand the risks, they
:45:34. > :45:43.can understand what the Nationalists are offering. If the pensions is
:45:43. > :45:49.anything to go by, it will be an act of fiction. With Alex Salmond saying
:45:49. > :45:55.he wanted to debate with the organ grinder, what does that make you? Do
:45:55. > :45:58.you find that offensive? Know, if you have no Alex Salmond for long
:45:58. > :46:06.enough, these things run off your back. -- if you have known him. I am
:46:06. > :46:09.not bothered about name-calling. The people of Scotland, there is every
:46:09. > :46:15.chance that if this remains as a political spat that people will turn
:46:15. > :46:21.off. None of us can afford that. This is the biggest issue affecting
:46:21. > :46:24.people living in Scotland, within 300 years. We deserve better than
:46:24. > :46:29.political posturing. What we are entitled to is a proper debate where
:46:29. > :46:36.we can look at the facts and reach a decision in a grown-up way, that is
:46:36. > :46:41.what I will pursue. We are looking at the one-year countdown, two weeks
:46:41. > :46:46.on from that, how significant is the one-year countdown for your
:46:47. > :46:51.campaign? The campaign will gather pace between now and next September,
:46:51. > :46:55.I have already said on numerous occasions, it's a ludicrously long
:46:55. > :47:00.campaign but that was Alex Salmond 's decision. What we need to do
:47:00. > :47:03.between now and then is look at the things that will matter in deciding
:47:03. > :47:08.whether or not we want to become independent, look at things like
:47:08. > :47:14.what currency we will use. If there isn't a currency union, what does
:47:14. > :47:19.that mean for Scotland? I mentioned pensions. You can't have a debate
:47:19. > :47:24.that depends upon all these claims being made, which falls apart
:47:24. > :47:28.whenever experts look at them. In issues like Europe, defence, these
:47:28. > :47:32.are the issues people want to see discussed, they want to consider the
:47:32. > :47:37.facts before it comes to a decision. We will continue to make a positive
:47:37. > :47:41.case for being part of the UK, we will also not be put off challenging
:47:41. > :47:48.some of the lead Chris claims being made by the Nationalists which we
:47:48. > :47:52.have seen fall apart. The King at the polls, do you sometimes think it
:47:52. > :47:58.will be fine, do you think you are in danger of being complacent? --
:47:58. > :48:03.looking at the polls. The don't knows could play a big part in the
:48:03. > :48:09.campaign. I have been around long enough to know that opinion polls
:48:10. > :48:12.are all very well. There are a lot of people who have to make their
:48:12. > :48:18.minds up, people can shift either wager in the course of what is a
:48:18. > :48:22.very long campaign. This campaign won't be finished until the polls
:48:22. > :48:26.close in September next year. It is better to be ahead and behind, let's
:48:26. > :48:31.not kid ourselves, but there is an awful lot of uncertainty around and
:48:31. > :48:33.all the more reason why people in Scotland are entitled to have a
:48:33. > :48:41.grown-up debate on television and the other media so they can discuss
:48:41. > :48:44.these issues. The things that will affect their job prospects, their
:48:44. > :48:49.security in their old age and what is looking best for Scotland as a
:48:49. > :48:52.whole. A lot of that could be resolved with the publication of a
:48:52. > :48:57.white paper coming out in November. I know you are ready and waiting to
:48:57. > :49:03.pounce on currency, pensions, debt. Do you think this mega C -- negative
:49:03. > :49:07.response could backfire on "Better Together"? Every time I'd do
:49:07. > :49:11.interviews like this I make the Together"? Every time I'd do
:49:11. > :49:14.point that there is a positive case for remaining part of the UK in
:49:14. > :49:19.terms of the opportunities that come for our people, as well as the fact
:49:19. > :49:23.we can share risks. You mentioned the collapse of the banks five years
:49:23. > :49:25.ago, which I couldn't have done if I was just crying on a Scottish
:49:25. > :49:31.Treasury, it wouldn't have been big enough. There is our influence on
:49:31. > :49:37.the EU and the cultural and emotional ties between the countries
:49:37. > :49:40.of the United Kingdom. But in Russian to this white paper, I am
:49:40. > :49:46.seriously concerned, as a result of what we saw, that the Scottish
:49:46. > :49:51.Government is producing statistics which are highly dubious and dodgy.
:49:51. > :49:55.Frankly, I expect better and there is a real risk that the civil
:49:55. > :50:01.service, who will serve fearlessly...
:50:01. > :50:07.We have spoken about pensions but I want you to pick up on the point
:50:07. > :50:12.about the scaremongering. I know Better Together they scaremongering
:50:12. > :50:18.Bingle but this has been a fairly negative campaign so far. Let me
:50:18. > :50:22.finish. What is the real positive case for the union? What is the
:50:22. > :50:27.positive case for remaining in the United Kingdom? I will give you two
:50:27. > :50:32.examples of what you call negativity. We asked where the legal
:50:32. > :50:37.opinion was that nothing would change as far as Europe concerned.
:50:37. > :50:41.There never was a legal opinion. You may say that is negative, I think a
:50:41. > :50:46.public service was done there in exposing that claim for what it
:50:46. > :50:50.was. Secondly, I will mention pensions again. You cannot go around
:50:50. > :50:56.saying, don't worry, we will pay you more pensions... You have mentioned
:50:56. > :51:02.pensions several times. I have. What is the positive case for Britain?
:51:02. > :51:07.Let me finish this. What I am saying is that women people make claims
:51:07. > :51:13.that don't stand up, you call it negative asking about them but I
:51:13. > :51:19.think people deserve to know. -- I am saying that when people make
:51:19. > :51:23.claims. If you look at the big economic case, for jobs and
:51:23. > :51:30.prospects, you have a market of 60 million people, not 5 million. If
:51:30. > :51:34.you take away our universities, some are world-class, they have access to
:51:34. > :51:39.UK research funds which would not have. If you look at the vast
:51:39. > :51:43.resources the images can draw on because whilst it might be
:51:43. > :51:47.administered separately it is part of one that stretches across the
:51:47. > :51:50.United Kingdom. Also, it is not just the opportunities which we depend
:51:50. > :51:55.upon to get jobs but the risk-sharing. The fact that we have
:51:55. > :51:59.an ageing population that is spread across the shoulders of 60 million,
:51:59. > :52:04.not 5 million. We have huge benefits from being able to share those risks
:52:04. > :52:06.if something goes wrong, as we have seen in the banking crisis. I have
:52:06. > :52:12.mentioned, there are very many powerful cases. We have one of the
:52:12. > :52:15.oldest economic, social and political unions and it works
:52:15. > :52:18.because there are strong ties and bonds between the two others. You
:52:18. > :52:23.asked for the positive case, there it is. I want one final point.
:52:23. > :52:29.Results this week revealed only 80% of people here think they are
:52:29. > :52:35.Scottish and British. That was quite a surprising result and perhaps bad
:52:35. > :52:39.news for your campaign. You may consider yourself to be Scottish and
:52:39. > :52:43.are now less Scottish than believing -- for believing we are better as
:52:43. > :52:48.part of the United Kingdom. This was a snapshot in 2011. You're talking
:52:48. > :52:52.about Paul's earlier, it is very interesting. I believe we can
:52:52. > :52:59.convince the majority of people that there is a strong and -- strong case
:52:59. > :53:03.for being Better Together as part of the United Kingdom. We will continue
:53:03. > :53:05.to do so and ask hard questions. Alistair Darling, thank you very
:53:05. > :53:08.much. The north-west of England is hosting
:53:08. > :53:10.this year's UK Conservative party conference. Thousands of Tories from
:53:10. > :53:13.across Britain are heading to Manchester and many from Scotland
:53:13. > :53:16.are heading south too. The party appears to be taking the referendum
:53:16. > :53:26.seriously, with Ruth Davidson being granted an absolutely plum slot this
:53:26. > :53:30.year. The PM arrived in Manchester
:53:30. > :53:35.yesterday evening. At this stage, David Cameron needs to start putting
:53:35. > :53:39.the trips an election footing for 2015. -- the troops. The Tories have
:53:39. > :53:44.a good news story to tell the economy as looks like there is
:53:44. > :53:47.turning. Labour perhaps have their own positive tale with a plan to
:53:47. > :53:53.freeze energy prices. It comes across as being on the side of the
:53:53. > :53:57.people. While the Conservatives might be regarded as a little
:53:57. > :54:01.distant. The Tories will want to ensure they side with ordinary folk.
:54:01. > :54:06.There is also a very clear message to voters in Scotland. All the facts
:54:06. > :54:13.and figures stack up for the UK but I want to say very clearly that we
:54:13. > :54:16.want you to say. We think that the United Kingdom is better off with
:54:16. > :54:22.Scotland insider, not just dropped on being better off. He was the man
:54:22. > :54:25.who enabled the referendum to happen. Although Mister Cameron
:54:25. > :54:29.doesn't want to be the Prime Minister who lets Scotland leave the
:54:29. > :54:34.UK on his watch. The Tories are hypersensitive to the needs of
:54:34. > :54:37.Scotland. The Strathclyde omission is looking at more powers for
:54:37. > :54:43.Holyrood. To be clear, the menu of what is on offer will be made after
:54:43. > :54:47.the referendum. All the party leaders, conservative, Liberal
:54:47. > :54:51.Democrat, leader, -- labour, have all said that there is an open
:54:51. > :54:56.discussion and debate about what powers can be devolved, how we get
:54:56. > :55:01.into an even better shape. Let's have that debate after discovering
:55:01. > :55:04.whether Scotland wants to stay or go. Ruth Davidson is the woman
:55:04. > :55:08.leading the party's charge in Scotland. The Tories claim they have
:55:08. > :55:14.been revitalised by the referendum campaign. A commitment to the fight
:55:14. > :55:17.ahead is evident from where they have decided to place her speech,
:55:17. > :55:20.right before the PM's Before we came on-air this morning, I caught up
:55:20. > :55:22.with the Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson before she
:55:22. > :55:30.headed to conference. I began by asking her if the Tories
:55:30. > :55:34.now "got" Scotland. First of all, I don't accept the premise of your
:55:35. > :55:37.question. I am passionate about Scotland and the Conservatives that
:55:37. > :55:41.I know are passionate about Scotland and the United Kingdom. We have said
:55:41. > :55:45.that we want to take a full part in the campaign going forward. We are
:55:45. > :55:50.the most committed on the union side of any of the three men parties, as
:55:50. > :55:55.polling has shown. -- three main parties. We strongly believe that
:55:55. > :56:00.Scotland's best days are ahead of it, as part of the United Kingdom.
:56:00. > :56:06.Will then not BACs of unknown faces in the crowd? Not many Scottish
:56:06. > :56:10.Tories. On the contrary. We'll take a big contingent. If you're talking
:56:10. > :56:15.it elected Westminster MPs then we would like have more but our MSP
:56:15. > :56:21.group will be down. Over 100 councillors across Scotland, an
:56:21. > :56:24.activist based and over 1000 people have said that while they are not
:56:24. > :56:29.members of the Conservative party, they want to stand and fight with us
:56:29. > :56:33.on this issue. A big issue to Margaret Thatcher at the
:56:33. > :56:38.conference. If Scotland finally getting over her, do you think? Are
:56:38. > :56:42.you finally put in her memory to rest to help revitalise your party?
:56:42. > :56:45.If you are talking about Margaret Thatcher's popularity, good to
:56:45. > :56:51.remember that her general election in 1979 when she recorded a double
:56:52. > :56:59.the votes that Alex Salmond got in 2010 or 2011. She had a residence in
:56:59. > :57:03.Scotland but was very rising. Not just in Scotland but right across
:57:03. > :57:11.the UK. While there were many people that think, in fact, she has been
:57:11. > :57:17.voted Scotland's best and worst peacetime feminist by Scots. She
:57:17. > :57:20.does polarise. Not just by the contribution that she made, not just
:57:21. > :57:24.across the UK, but in terms of fighting the cold war, fighting for
:57:25. > :57:30.freedom. -- peacetime Prime Minister. It is right and proper
:57:30. > :57:35.that at the Conservative party conference, that we recognise her
:57:35. > :57:39.achievements. You are writing in one of the Sunday newspapers about the
:57:39. > :57:44.changing Conservative party. I have the toxic legacy, as many people
:57:44. > :57:49.have been putting it, is now over. -- perhaps the toxic legacy. I never
:57:49. > :57:54.called at that. Do you think you are now trying to get over that, to
:57:54. > :57:59.refresh the party? Are you trying to put that images? We are working hard
:57:59. > :58:03.in Scotland. After 1997, when we lost all of our MPs at Westminster,
:58:03. > :58:07.it was very difficult for the party, it was hard for us not to be trendy
:58:07. > :58:11.little bit and we perhaps did. We perhaps spent too long talking to
:58:11. > :58:14.ourselves and are not different people across the country. I am
:58:14. > :58:18.trying to change that. Working very hard to bring forward policies,
:58:18. > :58:23.bring forward people to generate policies that matter to them,
:58:23. > :58:26.perhaps not Conservatives. We are also changing the face of the
:58:26. > :58:31.Scottish Conservative party. We are attracting a large number of younger
:58:31. > :58:36.people, people in the 18-25 age group in our second best voting
:58:36. > :58:44.group. We are seeing a new generation of conservatives become
:58:44. > :58:47.elected. More than one third of our councillors in the 2012 election
:58:47. > :58:51.have never stood before, many in their 20s and 30s. We have a good
:58:51. > :58:56.young candidate at the more or less. You will see changes in the future.
:58:56. > :59:01.Lots of changes on the face of it but do you think it could still be
:59:01. > :59:06.regarded as the nasty party? In a new book, serialised in the Sunday
:59:06. > :59:09.Telegraph, David Cameron is quoted as talking about Same Sex Marriage
:59:09. > :59:14.Bill "if I had known what it was going to be like, I would not have
:59:14. > :59:19.done it. " Does that suggest that is the real face of the Conservative
:59:19. > :59:23.party question why absolutely not. I have had on relations with the prime
:59:23. > :59:26.ministers and he is 100% committed to Same Sex Marriage Bill stop he
:59:26. > :59:30.believes that love is love and commitment is commitment and that
:59:30. > :59:33.the time is right for people who love each other and are committed to
:59:33. > :59:36.have that recognised by the state and not have the Government tell
:59:36. > :59:40.them that their love is less valid than other people. He feels
:59:40. > :59:45.incredibly strongly about that and so dry. But Ed Miliband stole a real
:59:45. > :59:52.market on the Conservative party with his promise to freeze energy
:59:52. > :59:57.prices if he becomes PM. What can the Conservatives do? It looks like
:59:57. > :00:03.you are on the side of a vested interest and not of ordinary people.
:00:03. > :00:06.First of all, I think it was a headline grabber from Ed Miliband, I
:00:06. > :00:11.will give you that, but it started to fall apart is that as he said it.
:00:11. > :00:16.Not with ordinary people. Your own commentators have said so. If you're
:00:16. > :00:21.looking at how to be on the side of ordinary people, look at what we
:00:21. > :00:27.inherited and what a Conservative government has done. 1.4 million new
:00:27. > :00:30.private-sector jobs. 25 million people having their taxation cut.
:00:30. > :00:34.2.4 million taken out of tax altogether. That matters, not just
:00:34. > :00:39.because of the numbers but, because it is the best way to improve
:00:39. > :00:43.people's life chances, prosperity and opportunity, to make sure that
:00:43. > :00:48.they get a job and work. That those jobs are there and that they get to
:00:48. > :00:55.take, keep more of that money and run pocket. So this is the fight for
:00:56. > :00:59.more of -- for the 2015 election Mister Mark when it comes to the
:00:59. > :01:04.referendum, yours seem at the conference is why Britain is put
:01:04. > :01:07.together. Looking at the Scottish census result when most people see
:01:07. > :01:10.themselves as Scottish and not British, that is not good for the
:01:10. > :01:16.Conservatives, is it? I do not recognise how you have got from one
:01:16. > :01:20.to another because I feel Scottish, I would always say that I am
:01:20. > :01:24.Scottish first and British after. But that does not mean that I did
:01:24. > :01:28.not want to remain part of the United Kingdom. I think that is true
:01:28. > :01:33.for a number of Scots and if we are... And you are using research
:01:33. > :01:39.there, if you're looking at boat across the country, consistently, a
:01:39. > :01:43.number of Scots say they feel the same. There are 11 months to go
:01:43. > :01:50.until the referendum and we will fight for every vote. We will show
:01:50. > :01:53.why we are better off financially, have more stability, safer, but the
:01:53. > :01:57.opportunities that we have going forward are standing with our
:01:57. > :02:00.friends and neighbours in the other home countries. Let's look at what
:02:00. > :02:06.might be an offer after the referendum if there is a no sold.
:02:06. > :02:11.The Strathclyde commission will vote back. Will you give the Scottish
:02:11. > :02:19.people a real genuine offer about what might be available. -- if there
:02:19. > :02:24.is the no vote. What we have said and have been perfectly transparent
:02:24. > :02:26.from the beginning, we have asked Lord Strathclyde to go away with
:02:26. > :02:33.experts, real leaders in their field, not just in politics and how
:02:33. > :02:36.Westminster and Holyrood works, not just constitutional law, not just
:02:36. > :02:40.economics at business people and the sort of people for whom it is
:02:40. > :02:43.important that you have the constitutional right but it is what
:02:43. > :02:48.you do with it that counts. How do we make life better for ordinary
:02:48. > :02:52.Scots? How do we have devolution improve the life chances and job
:02:52. > :02:56.prospects of Scots? The only restriction is that I have given a
:02:56. > :02:59.Strathclyde commission and panel of experts is that they have to come
:02:59. > :03:00.back a good time before the referendum so that the people of
:03:00. > :03:03.Scotland can see what they come up referendum so that the people of
:03:04. > :03:07.with. I am not going to prejudge what the come back with something
:03:07. > :03:10.and I have not put any restrictions on what they look at. They can look
:03:10. > :03:13.at any of policy that they so wish that that will return back before
:03:13. > :03:15.the referendum so that people can see what is on the table.
:03:15. > :03:19.You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC and the time
:03:19. > :03:23.is just after midday. In a moment, we'll be taking a look at the Week
:03:23. > :03:26.Ahead with our guests of the day - the blogger Kate Higgins and Richard
:03:26. > :03:29.Sullivan, Chair of the Glasgow Conservative Association. But first,
:03:29. > :03:34.let's cross to Graham Stewart for Reporting Scotland.
:03:34. > :03:38.Good afternoon. The flu vaccine is being offered for
:03:38. > :03:42.the first time to every child in Scotland, in the form of a nasal
:03:42. > :03:44.spray. It's part of the country's largest ever immunisation programme,
:03:44. > :03:47.which has been launched by First Minister Alex Salmond, who received
:03:47. > :03:51.the vaccine in a surgery in Aberdeenshire. A fifth of the
:03:51. > :03:54.Scottish population will be offered a free flu vaccine, including people
:03:54. > :03:59.aged over 65 and those with conditions that put them at greater
:03:59. > :04:03.risk. The First Minister is urging eligible Scots to get protected
:04:03. > :04:06.before the winter. A climber has died in Wester Ross.
:04:07. > :04:10.Around 1:45pm yesterday, the emergency services were called to a
:04:10. > :04:17.man who had collapsed in the Beinn Dearg hills. Attempts to revive him
:04:17. > :04:28.failed and he died. Next of kin are being informed.
:04:28. > :04:32.Now for a look at today's weather. A cracking afternoon of weather
:04:32. > :04:35.across the country, including those areas that had cloud and rain
:04:35. > :04:40.yesterday. Much better. There will be a bit of a breeze from the south
:04:40. > :04:46.east and certainly across eastern parts, more cloud. In that sunshine
:04:46. > :04:51.in the West, feeling warm. Even for the Northern Isles, after a damp,
:04:51. > :04:55.cloudy morning, improving the dry and bright conditions. Staying dry
:04:55. > :05:00.and settled into the season. That is the forecast for now.
:05:00. > :05:06.That is all for now. Thanks Graham. Now in a moment,
:05:06. > :05:08.we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week at Holyrood, but
:05:08. > :05:24.first, seven names will be in the election
:05:24. > :05:32.to replace the former MP. The Scottish and UK governments were set
:05:32. > :05:36.to agree an early decision. The two governments should strike a deal
:05:36. > :05:41.before Christmas. Supporters were clear about the consequences. MSPs
:05:41. > :05:44.at Holyrood discuss controversial plans to scrap the need for evidence
:05:44. > :05:52.to be backed up uncorroborated income rated court cases. Nearly two
:05:52. > :05:55.thirds of people in Scotland identify themselves as Scottish
:05:55. > :06:00.only, according to results from the latest census. It was the first
:06:00. > :06:03.survey to include a question on national identity. And a new shared
:06:03. > :06:07.equity scheme designed to help people get onto and up the housing
:06:07. > :06:12.ladder was unveiled by the Scottish Government. They said the scheme
:06:12. > :06:19.could be a game changing initiative for the industry. Now let's look at
:06:19. > :06:25.the big stories of the week and what's in store for the week ahead.
:06:25. > :06:29.Joining me now is the Burdz Eye View blogger Kate Higgins and Chairman of
:06:29. > :06:39.the Glasgow Conservative Association, Richard Sullivan.
:06:39. > :06:47.Thanks to joining me. First, let's look at it together. The Alistair
:06:47. > :06:50.Darling interview, this arguing going on about who will debate with
:06:50. > :06:56.whom, what do you make of what he had to say? Let's set out people 's
:06:56. > :07:01.rentals. A list that Darling is effectively a backbench opposition
:07:01. > :07:04.MP with too much time on his hand. Alex Salmond is the Democrat can the
:07:04. > :07:11.elected First Minister of Scotland. There is an issue about parity and
:07:11. > :07:16.respect. David Cameron is his equivalent in the UK in terms of
:07:16. > :07:19.being elected Prime Minister. There is no doubt that the debate should
:07:19. > :07:26.be between the two democratically elected leaders of Scotland and the
:07:26. > :07:32.UK. Why make it Scotland versus the UK, that is his point? That is what
:07:32. > :07:39.the debate could be seen as? The issue is that David Cameron is the
:07:39. > :07:48.issue of the UK -- promised of the UK and a supporter of the union.
:07:48. > :07:52.Alex Salmond is it critically elected leader -- the democratically
:07:52. > :08:01.elected leader of Scotland, that is who the debate should be between. I
:08:01. > :08:06.think the point made about McHattie parity is a good one. But I is
:08:07. > :08:13.essentially a debate between a Scot against another Scot. He is always
:08:13. > :08:17.telling the Prime Minister to keep out of Scotland 's business, so he
:08:17. > :08:20.really is just wanting to cherry pick as to when he wants to engage
:08:20. > :08:26.with the Prime Minister or not, which is wrong. Better to die --
:08:26. > :08:31."Better Together" is led by Alistair Darling, I think he's the best
:08:31. > :08:39.person to abate against. But who does Alistair Darling represent? The
:08:39. > :08:42.same point as what was said about Alex Salmond presenting Scotland, he
:08:42. > :08:48.doesn't in terms of this debate, he represents the people who agree with
:08:48. > :08:52.him. Otherwise they would be 100 isn't agreement that Scotland should
:08:52. > :08:57.be independent. The same goes for Alistair Darling can he represent
:08:57. > :09:02.the Scots like me. But nobody elected Alistair Darling. The people
:09:02. > :09:06.elected Alex Salmond and the SNP to form the Scottish Government.
:09:06. > :09:11.Knowing full well that a referendum on independence was part of the
:09:11. > :09:14.platform. So they voted for the SNP and our First Minister to lead
:09:14. > :09:20.Scotland in that debate, nobody elected Alistair Darling into his
:09:20. > :09:24.position. What do you make about the more general debate, we have had the
:09:24. > :09:27.set piece interviews from Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling, what
:09:27. > :09:33.about the debate going ahead for the year? I think it's really exciting,
:09:33. > :09:39.it is hotting up, we are off the presses and into the substance of
:09:39. > :09:43.the debate. And there are big issues to be debated, I found it helpful in
:09:43. > :09:48.terms of setting a deadline for when people need to put forward their
:09:48. > :09:52.options and their case to the people of Scotland so we all have time to
:09:52. > :09:55.do that. I have to say the Scottish Government is working to that
:09:55. > :10:00.timetable, it will publish its White Paper well before Christmas, when we
:10:00. > :10:06.get the options from the various parties, who knows, whether we get
:10:06. > :10:11.them before the referendum or not remains to be seen. A campaign that
:10:11. > :10:19.is too long, as Alistair Darling was saying? I think so, a lot of people
:10:19. > :10:22.are feeling the fatigue of this, but I think both parties have to up
:10:22. > :10:28.their game. I think there is a year to go, we are getting to the issues,
:10:28. > :10:33.I do a lot of the issues we have had so far, pensions, Europe, they need
:10:33. > :10:38.to be clearer and less duplicity between both groups. Because there
:10:38. > :10:45.is counter argument counterargument. I think it should be a more honest
:10:45. > :10:50.debate. Let's look at your party, you restore what of the Tory party.
:10:50. > :10:59.We have this interview with Ruth Davidson. The party...
:10:59. > :11:07.Do you agree? Yes, I spoke at a public meeting during the week where
:11:07. > :11:13.got a random applause for everything I set and the Labour candidate
:11:13. > :11:20.didn't, or indeed the nationalist. I do know that is my own charisma
:11:20. > :11:25.perhaps! But I have been a candidate at various elections since 2004 and
:11:25. > :11:31.the reception of the doors to buy have personally had has changed, it
:11:31. > :11:37.is warmer. What do you make of Ruth Davidson 's leadership? She able to
:11:37. > :11:43.shed the toxic brand? As it was regarded by many? I think one of the
:11:43. > :11:48.things that is positive is as Ruth says, they are bringing in younger
:11:48. > :11:51.people into politics. I might not agree with younger people supporting
:11:51. > :11:58.the Conservatives but more people in politics is a good thing. But she's
:11:58. > :12:02.up against it. She is detoxifying the brand but she has her UK
:12:02. > :12:08.counterparts coming out and taking us into legal battles to defend the
:12:08. > :12:11.bankers, you have the hated bedroom tax doing its worst in terms of
:12:11. > :12:14.hitting the most vulnerable in Scotland as well as other welfare
:12:14. > :12:21.reforms and you have also got news of the latest Tory donor to be mired
:12:21. > :12:26.in a city scandal. If that is the justification, she has her work cut
:12:26. > :12:32.out. One other story, a call for the shake-up of the Yes campaign, Blair
:12:32. > :12:40.Jenkins has been handed an almost impossible task, a quick reaction
:12:40. > :12:46.from you? It is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It is the
:12:46. > :12:54.product, not the way it is structured. Blair Jenkins, an
:12:54. > :12:57.impossible task? They say they have clearly defined goals and everything
:12:57. > :13:02.is where they want it to be. Yes Scotland has always been about a
:13:02. > :13:08.grassroots campaign, it is huge, it grows day by day. Margo should be
:13:08. > :13:11.listened to carefully, she has important things to say, what we
:13:11. > :13:15.need to do is make sure there is a role for all the fantastic people
:13:15. > :13:20.who are on the advisory board, because they are fantastic at taking
:13:20. > :13:24.the positive message of what independence could mean two Scots
:13:24. > :13:30.will stop I've heard them speaking at panels, I think there is a role
:13:30. > :13:34.for all of them to play. We will have to leave it there, thank you
:13:34. > :13:38.both very much. That's all from the us this week. I'll be back at the
:13:38. > :13:41.same time next week. Until then, goodbye.