:00:34. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. An in-out EU referendum
:00:42. > :00:46.before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel demanding
:00:46. > :00:49.one next year. That's our top story. As Government ministers prepare to
:00:49. > :00:53.decide how the press should be regulated, what will be the impact
:00:53. > :01:03.of this week's row between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?
:01:03. > :01:08.You take this and you have kept out the colour of people's faces. You
:01:08. > :01:10.are a disgrace! And we'll hear from the MEP who ruined UKIP's
:01:10. > :01:13.conference. And coming up on Sunday Politics
:01:13. > :01:17.Scotland: The meter's running on the cost of living. What can the
:01:17. > :01:58.politicians do to help people? And who's to blame?
:01:58. > :02:05.He will try to force a vote in the Commons to hold the poll next
:02:05. > :02:10.October. Home Secretary Theresa May was asked about his plans on the BBC
:02:10. > :02:18.earlier this morning. I think he has got it wrong, I think what we need
:02:18. > :02:22.to do is to negotiate the settlement with the European Union and then put
:02:22. > :02:28.that to the people me to decide whether to be in or out. Is this a
:02:28. > :02:33.flea bite or a real threat? I think what is crucial is that we have, at
:02:33. > :02:38.the next election, a Conservative Party that will be offering people
:02:38. > :02:42.that renegotiation, a new settlement with Europe, looking to the future
:02:42. > :02:47.and putting that to the British people in and in or out referendum.
:02:47. > :02:51.And what the amendment possibly could do, as James Wharton, who was
:02:51. > :02:56.putting the Referendum Bill through Parliament has said, is it could
:02:56. > :03:02.jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie joins us now from Millbank studio.
:03:02. > :03:05.Good morning. If the referendum would be held next October, it would
:03:05. > :03:12.have to be an in-out question based the status quo? There wouldn't be
:03:12. > :03:17.time for a full renegotiation. I disagree. By having a referendum in
:03:17. > :03:21.2014, it gives us 12 months to renegotiate, but it kick-started
:03:21. > :03:23.negotiations, because the European Union, if they wish us to remain
:03:23. > :03:27.members, would need to accommodate and make changes so that they would
:03:27. > :03:31.persuade the British public to stay, if that is what they want. It
:03:32. > :03:36.strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time
:03:36. > :03:39.for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has
:03:39. > :03:43.not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our
:03:43. > :03:49.timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:49. > :03:53.think, basically, 80% of people want a referendum. More than 50% what a
:03:53. > :03:56.referendum this side of the election. British businesses need
:03:56. > :04:00.certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for
:04:00. > :04:04.ever, but I have struggled with my conscience over this one. I do not
:04:04. > :04:07.want to cause trouble, but it is essential that Parliament and MPs
:04:07. > :04:11.have the opportunity to search their souls and give people a referendum
:04:11. > :04:13.this side of the election. That would also bring certainty and
:04:13. > :04:20.clarity for the future, and like I said, it strengthens the Prime
:04:20. > :04:23.Minister's hand if it is successful. You right in the Mail on Sunday that
:04:23. > :04:28.the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they
:04:28. > :04:31.don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I
:04:32. > :04:35.wrote for that piece. What I am saying is a very calm analysis...
:04:35. > :04:40.You are saying that the British people are not convinced. Look,
:04:40. > :04:43.there are too many uncertainties here - they may not be convinced the
:04:43. > :04:47.Conservatives will win the election, I hope we will, they may not be
:04:47. > :04:52.convinced the renegotiation will be good enough, that there will be a
:04:52. > :04:55.referendum. Do you trust David Cameron to deliver a referendum?
:04:55. > :04:59.That is why we need to bring the referendum forward, there is time to
:04:59. > :05:04.negotiate, and we tidy up the issue that has been hanging around for too
:05:04. > :05:09.long. Do you trust David Cameron to deliver a referendum in 2017? I
:05:09. > :05:12.completely support the Prime Minister, and of course I trust the
:05:12. > :05:16.completely support the Prime Prime Minister. To deliver a
:05:16. > :05:18.referendum? There as only variables in between. What I am doing with
:05:18. > :05:23.referendum? There as only variables this amendment, is to try to be sure
:05:23. > :05:27.is that Parliament and every MP has the opportunity decide whether they
:05:27. > :05:28.want to be sure of a referendum within this parliament, or maybe
:05:28. > :05:33.leave it to the vagaries of what may within this parliament, or maybe
:05:33. > :05:39.happen in 2015. Supposing you got your way, how would you vote? Like
:05:39. > :05:41.Michael Gove, I would vote for us to leave as of today, but there will be
:05:41. > :05:42.Michael Gove, I would vote for us to an enormous amount of pressure on
:05:42. > :05:44.European Union leaders to come an enormous amount of pressure on
:05:44. > :05:49.forward with proposals. If they were to say, the mandate is not ever
:05:49. > :05:55.closer political union, it is ever closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:55. > :06:00.more border control and control over our legal system, I might change my
:06:00. > :06:04.mind. But this is what needs to happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:04. > :06:07.2014, 12 months is time for negotiations to be kick-started and
:06:07. > :06:13.people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime
:06:13. > :06:18.Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It
:06:18. > :06:21.is cross-party, that is for certain, and I think we will see it
:06:21. > :06:27.on hold over the next three or five weeks. He will have to ask each
:06:27. > :06:31.individual MP. I am asking you, it is your motion! There will be other
:06:31. > :06:35.motions coming forward, and I know there is widespread support,
:06:35. > :06:39.cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in
:06:39. > :06:45.2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop
:06:45. > :06:48.this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your
:06:48. > :06:51.party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over
:06:51. > :06:54.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it
:06:54. > :06:58.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol on
:06:58. > :07:02.the flames - are you now the unlicensed troublemaker of the
:07:03. > :07:04.Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but
:07:04. > :07:07.Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or
:07:07. > :07:12.not I would give Parliament and the British people an opportunity to
:07:12. > :07:16.have a say in 2014. I wrestled with it, and I decided I wanted people to
:07:16. > :07:19.have that opportunity. It is for each individual MP to search their
:07:19. > :07:23.soul, speak to constituents and decide whether they want that. You
:07:23. > :07:29.decided it would get you in the headlines again. Oh, you are so
:07:29. > :07:34.cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition in that direction, I am not a
:07:34. > :07:37.publicity seeker. All I seek is for the British people do have this. I
:07:37. > :07:40.would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this
:07:40. > :07:46.opportunity for Britain to have its say. We have left it far too long.
:07:46. > :07:50.Nobody under the age of 56 has had a say. Thanks for joining us, good
:07:50. > :07:53.luck with this continuing struggle with your conscience! I will move
:07:53. > :07:56.the seat around and addressed the panel, what do you make of it? The
:07:57. > :08:01.party managers must be furious with him. I think what this confirms is
:08:01. > :08:09.that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most
:08:09. > :08:13.prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if
:08:13. > :08:17.you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in
:08:17. > :08:23.charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.
:08:23. > :08:27.They do not take him seriously? No, it is not a frivolous amendment. It
:08:27. > :08:31.is not as if the James Wharton bill is a work of genius, it is riddled
:08:31. > :08:34.with flaws, anomalies and loopholes. It purports to guarantee that a
:08:34. > :08:38.referendum will take place in the next Parliament. My understanding of
:08:38. > :08:40.the constitution is that is theoretically impossible and that
:08:40. > :08:45.all the future government would do is cancel out that bill with another
:08:45. > :08:50.bill. He does have a point that Cameron's plan for a referendum is
:08:50. > :08:52.nothing like as likely to happen... Hung parliaments, frivolous
:08:52. > :08:59.amendments can be immensely dangerous. The problem for David
:08:59. > :09:03.Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support
:09:03. > :09:08.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would do
:09:08. > :09:12.that, but what he might do is say to his MPs, ignore this. It may well be
:09:12. > :09:15.that the Labour payroll and a significant number of Labour MPs do
:09:15. > :09:19.not turn up, and then what you have got is a war between the
:09:19. > :09:22.Conservative payroll and the Conservative backbenchers, and in
:09:22. > :09:26.that war you might well find that Adam Afriyie's amendment goes
:09:26. > :09:29.through, and then the Prime Minister has real trouble, because Adam
:09:29. > :09:35.Afriyie says, the Prime Minister could renegotiate terms of
:09:35. > :09:38.membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able
:09:38. > :09:43.to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:43. > :09:48.at Adam Afriyie voting to leave. I think he is a Labour mole, that is
:09:48. > :09:50.what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:50. > :09:54.not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:54. > :09:59.a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is
:09:59. > :10:02.what no-one once, so that is it. He has told us he could not sleep at
:10:02. > :10:08.night, wrestling with his conscience. We could send him some
:10:08. > :10:10.pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were
:10:10. > :10:15.going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of
:10:16. > :10:21.the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to
:10:21. > :10:25.hear you say that, this is a crisis of conscience. Whispered
:10:25. > :10:29.conversations in corridors, quite an operation to get letters into Graham
:10:29. > :10:34.Brady, he said to have letters, not 46, but at the moment this campaign
:10:34. > :10:41.is being run by Lieutenant of Adam Afriyie. He has got lieutenants?
:10:41. > :10:47.They are disaffected and not happy under David Cameron's leadership.
:10:47. > :10:51.There is a whole army of them! I am pleased he has outmanoeuvred the
:10:51. > :10:57.awkward squad, and now James Wharton is saying, you're going to kill my
:10:57. > :11:00.bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main
:11:00. > :11:03.political consequence of this episode is it will unify a large
:11:03. > :11:06.political consequence of this chunk of the Colin Hendry
:11:06. > :11:11.Conservative Party behind David Cameron. On what they hope is a
:11:11. > :11:15.settled position. We still hope to be talking to John Prescott, who is
:11:15. > :11:21.in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do
:11:21. > :11:26.you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but
:11:26. > :11:29.not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:29. > :11:33.you? The Government says it has a scheme designed for you which is in
:11:33. > :11:38.launching next week, help to buy, and it should lead to the
:11:38. > :11:42.re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy
:11:42. > :11:47.really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:47. > :11:49.Never mind who lives in a house like this, who can afford to buy a house
:11:49. > :11:53.these days? The Government would this, who can afford to buy a house
:11:53. > :11:56.like many more people to be able to without putting down a crippling
:11:57. > :12:02.amount of money as a deposit, and in the spirit of rights to buy, the
:12:02. > :12:03.government has launched help to buy, confusingly it is the name for two
:12:03. > :12:17.different schemes. The first scheme, Help to Buy 1, has
:12:17. > :12:20.been running since April. Help to Buy 2 was supposed to come in
:12:20. > :12:25.January next year, but the government are bringing it in early.
:12:25. > :12:29.Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this
:12:29. > :12:34.scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really
:12:34. > :12:40.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is that
:12:40. > :12:46.it was for new build only, up to a value of £600,000. But it is Help to
:12:46. > :12:53.Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up
:12:53. > :12:59.to a value, again, of £600,000. This time the Government is guaranteeing
:12:59. > :13:03.that it will take on the first losses should the home owner in the
:13:03. > :13:08.future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if
:13:08. > :13:12.you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the
:13:12. > :13:17.5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating
:13:17. > :13:22.banks and building societies. And that, the Prime Minister thinks, is
:13:22. > :13:28.a housing prime mover. You cannot get training to 5% mortgage anymore,
:13:28. > :13:31.90% even, so there are couples in our country who have good jobs,
:13:31. > :13:35.decent incomes, they could afford the mortgage payments but they
:13:35. > :13:39.cannot buy the house. It is a failure in our banking market. So
:13:39. > :13:44.that is the Prime Minister, Jonathan, but I guess for you this
:13:44. > :13:48.is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a scheme which should be hammered. The
:13:48. > :13:52.main impact of this scheme will be to push up prices, who does that
:13:52. > :13:56.benefit? Mostly rich and all the people who own their houses. Plus
:13:57. > :14:01.the banks, of course, because it is a subsidy for them. Who loses?
:14:01. > :14:04.People who want to buy a house in the future. Moreover, it is a bit
:14:04. > :14:10.odd that the Government says it is not OK to borrow to finance schools
:14:10. > :14:15.or roads, but it is fine for the Government to take on more debt,
:14:15. > :14:22.effectively, in order to guarantee 95% mortgages and pump up the
:14:22. > :14:26.housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.
:14:26. > :14:33.But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of
:14:33. > :14:38.help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the
:14:38. > :14:42.announcement forward by three months, and banks were not ready at
:14:42. > :14:46.that stage. Two banks have committed to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group
:14:46. > :14:51.and the RBS group, so lenders like Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will
:14:51. > :14:54.be doing the scheme, but even once the scheme is up and running you are
:14:54. > :14:59.not going to see Help to Buy mortgages badged up. You will
:14:59. > :15:07.probably find 95% mortgages on the high street because of the guarantee
:15:07. > :15:11.the government is offering. People might say this is how we got into a
:15:11. > :15:19.mess in the first place. Why would the government want to make those
:15:19. > :15:22.products available then now? It was more what investment banks were
:15:22. > :15:27.doing in the background that caused the problems. Mortgages have
:15:27. > :15:35.performed extremely well through the depths of the downturn. Is this a
:15:35. > :15:40.game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years
:15:40. > :15:47.but this has enabled me to make that first purchase. How frustrating was
:15:47. > :15:52.it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand
:15:52. > :15:56.over fist, and now I can take that leap to being an owner. His
:15:57. > :16:01.enthusiasm raises a question back at the flat. If you are looking for a
:16:01. > :16:06.95% mortgage, you don't really care what will happen in the wider
:16:06. > :16:14.economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a
:16:14. > :16:18.house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term
:16:18. > :16:22.economic damage. The tricky steps pleased, but it will do longer term
:16:22. > :16:26.the government are trying to pull off is that home-buyers might be so
:16:26. > :16:33.grateful for the opportunity to buy their own homes that they reward the
:16:33. > :16:38.Government with the vote, while at the same time the Government tries
:16:38. > :16:51.to sidestep consequences that such a scheme might create.
:16:51. > :16:55.Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City
:16:55. > :16:59.AM, go head to head. It is said by the critics that this
:16:59. > :17:16.scheme will cause a housing bubble. Where is the evidence? House prices
:17:16. > :17:19.are more varied. Housing not just in London remains overvalued and the
:17:19. > :17:23.problem with this scheme is that it will pump up house prices, it will
:17:23. > :17:30.not increase the supply and therefore houses will become even
:17:30. > :17:34.more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in
:17:34. > :17:41.tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.
:17:41. > :17:46.What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on
:17:46. > :17:54.average until they are 38 years old until they can buy their own
:17:54. > :17:59.property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they
:17:59. > :18:03.cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people
:18:03. > :18:07.to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will
:18:07. > :18:14.cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any
:18:14. > :18:30.new houses, but we are. Are you? We have had a record this year, 12
:18:30. > :18:35.months to right now, the record for the last ten years. These are not
:18:35. > :18:40.the statistics I have seen, but the new supply is coming up. It is
:18:40. > :18:46.the statistics I have seen, but the starting to creep up. We don't see
:18:46. > :18:50.enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution
:18:50. > :18:54.to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes
:18:54. > :18:58.and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the
:18:58. > :19:02.right places. The reason the deposits are so high is because
:19:02. > :19:05.house prices are still too high, and secondly the Government has passed
:19:05. > :19:10.laws to make the banking system more prudent, telling them to put more
:19:10. > :19:15.money aside in case things go wrong. Now suddenly the Government
:19:15. > :19:19.is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create
:19:19. > :19:26.these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not
:19:26. > :19:28.a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take
:19:28. > :19:34.a subsidy. Don't forget banks have part in this loan scheme and that
:19:34. > :19:41.the... You are guaranteeing the money. Yes, but the fear is worked
:19:41. > :19:48.out on a commercial basis. The taxpayer is protected. Why? You are
:19:48. > :19:54.guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the
:19:54. > :19:59.change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in
:19:59. > :20:01.response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying
:20:01. > :20:08.response of the crash. They made the for mortgages much higher and you
:20:08. > :20:12.have to be able to repay at twice... So it will not be like
:20:12. > :20:19.these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused
:20:19. > :20:23.the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly
:20:23. > :20:28.asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house
:20:28. > :20:33.prices could fall if interest rates will go up, which they will
:20:33. > :20:36.eventually, so they are demanding bigger deposits. The Government is
:20:36. > :20:38.making sure the risk of circumventing this is being passed
:20:39. > :20:43.making sure the risk of on to the taxpayers which is why it
:20:43. > :20:49.is a dangerous policy. Instead they should be massively accelerating
:20:49. > :20:54.house-building. Which we are. Planning permission is much easier
:20:54. > :20:58.to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission for
:20:58. > :21:05.a new building over the last year, a huge increase. In the figures I saw
:21:05. > :21:11.recently, they showed new start in the 12 months to the autumn were
:21:11. > :21:17.only about 110,000 which is the figure you inherited, which was at
:21:17. > :21:23.an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third
:21:23. > :21:27.up on the time last year. You have got to give a chance for the
:21:27. > :21:30.relaxation of planning laws and the other policies the Government put
:21:30. > :21:35.into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I
:21:36. > :21:40.agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector
:21:40. > :21:44.was not really ready to take advantage of the increased demand,
:21:44. > :21:51.there would be a risk. David Cameron says you are snob and it is only
:21:51. > :21:59.snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They don't have the bank of mum and dad,
:21:59. > :22:04.people like that will finally get on the housing ladder. That is complete
:22:04. > :22:09.nonsense. We need a sustainable housing market where there is a
:22:09. > :22:13.large amount of construction, like in the 1930s for example, where
:22:13. > :22:21.large numbers of proper family homes were being built for people. House
:22:21. > :22:27.prices were pushed down and people could afford houses. You are now
:22:27. > :22:34.encouraging people to take out a 95% mortgage, I thought that was a bad
:22:34. > :22:38.idea, so supposing interest rates go up by a lot, I am going to
:22:38. > :22:43.struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced
:22:43. > :22:51.with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:51. > :22:57.95% mortgage, if you can afford the repayments, you will be fine. What
:22:57. > :23:02.happens when interest rates rise? They have got to rise a lot before
:23:02. > :23:08.you get into trouble. People are already affording rent which is a
:23:08. > :23:15.lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into
:23:15. > :23:20.this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are at
:23:20. > :23:24.the moment. The Conservatives should have been enjoying the media
:23:24. > :23:30.limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape of a
:23:30. > :23:33.row between Ed Miliband and the Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the
:23:33. > :23:40.Daily Mail printed an article claiming that Ed Miliband's Father
:23:40. > :23:47.Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone
:23:47. > :23:52.with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and gave
:23:52. > :23:56.Ed Miliband the right to reply on the Tuesday edition, but also
:23:56. > :24:01.printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word they
:24:01. > :24:05.published an fair headline. It also emerged in the week that the
:24:05. > :24:10.reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's
:24:10. > :24:14.uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,
:24:14. > :24:20.but Ed Miliband has called on the Daily Mail owner to take a long,
:24:20. > :24:23.hard look at the way his papers are run. This comes a week before a new
:24:23. > :24:27.system of press regulation is run. This comes a week before a new
:24:27. > :24:35.considered at the Privy Council. Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:35. > :24:42.Prescott. Does this row between Ed Miliband and the Daily Mail
:24:42. > :24:45.reinforce the case for tough, new regulation of the press? It
:24:45. > :24:51.certainly influences the opinion about that but that is more of Paul
:24:52. > :24:57.Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang me while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:57. > :25:04.sure my complaints were nothing to do with press regulation and he is
:25:04. > :25:08.right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is
:25:08. > :25:16.about ordinary people that love this and dealt with. All of these cases
:25:16. > :25:22.affected individual people and they are the ones that need to have
:25:22. > :25:31.justice in this matter. Next week we will be hearing whether the Privy
:25:31. > :25:37.Council will be reporting on the proposal to replace it. Are you
:25:37. > :25:48.agreeing then that what the mail did with its Miliband article was a
:25:48. > :25:57.matter of judgement? Yes, and the with its Miliband article was a
:25:57. > :26:04.Leveson inquiry came to the conclusion that the relationship
:26:04. > :26:07.between the press, the police and politicians should be governed, but
:26:07. > :26:12.this is about how you have a framework that can be fair to
:26:12. > :26:18.everyone. If you look at the proposal given by half the press
:26:18. > :26:22.industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect
:26:22. > :26:26.the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope it
:26:26. > :26:31.will because it is not consistent with the Leveson report which the
:26:31. > :26:38.Prime Minister said he supported. You attacked the mail in your column
:26:38. > :26:42.today but your paper went through the Cameron family bins to see what
:26:42. > :26:46.nappies they used for their disabled son. Isn't that far more offensive
:26:46. > :26:56.than what the Daily Mail wrote about Ralph Miliband? It probably is, I
:26:56. > :27:01.couldn't defend that. I have had reporters going through my bins.
:27:01. > :27:07.couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are
:27:07. > :27:14.dealing with the judgement of editors who acts unilaterally. Paul
:27:15. > :27:22.Dacre is running this thing in the Mail. How can we accept their
:27:22. > :27:30.Dacre is running this thing in the judgement and some accountability
:27:30. > :27:34.which the press have accepted the old PCC is no good. They are playing
:27:34. > :27:39.for time because if they reject it this week there is 12 months until
:27:39. > :27:43.you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near
:27:43. > :27:47.the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have
:27:47. > :27:57.been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is
:27:57. > :28:04.fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the
:28:04. > :28:09.Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say it
:28:09. > :28:13.is wrong if that is what they did. As you said, you have the same
:28:13. > :28:18.position when they go through your rubbish bins, I think that is wrong.
:28:18. > :28:22.We have Leveson set up by the Prime Minister to look at the cultures and
:28:22. > :28:26.practices and the unilateral action of editors and he came forward with
:28:26. > :28:39.a proposal that was agreed in Parliament under a compromise of the
:28:39. > :28:41.Royal Charter. I don't like a Royal Charter, it is not democratic
:28:41. > :28:44.frankly, but we have agreed to go along with it so why did the
:28:44. > :28:50.Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press
:28:51. > :28:58.box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a
:28:58. > :29:01.means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to
:29:01. > :29:07.introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not want
:29:07. > :29:08.to face up to any form of accountability. We know Alistair
:29:08. > :29:13.Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair
:29:13. > :29:23.are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for
:29:23. > :29:35.this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to
:29:36. > :29:40.me, and he needs to be taking account. When Ed Miliband rang me it
:29:40. > :29:43.was to say, don't let these arguments drift into press
:29:43. > :29:57.regulation, he wanted the argument of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband
:29:57. > :30:00.after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can stay there. It is like with Murdoch,
:30:00. > :30:03.after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can we were not attacking him but what
:30:03. > :30:06.is papers were doing. To that extent, what they are doing about
:30:06. > :30:09.is papers were doing. To that ordinary people, not just big
:30:09. > :30:13.politicians who can look after themselves. We know, with the bad
:30:13. > :30:17.cases he had to deal with, they might get libel action, which the
:30:17. > :30:21.press say, but they pretty well destroyed their lives. That is about
:30:21. > :30:36.judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre got good
:30:36. > :30:42.What is the endgame in this? Whether the Labour Party is trying to make
:30:42. > :30:47.this an issue of press regulation or not, that is where it is going.
:30:47. > :30:51.Pretty soon the privy Council will discuss the issue of press
:30:51. > :30:55.regulation, before the end of the year. The question is, what is the
:30:55. > :31:01.impact on the various political partiesmy hunch is that the total
:31:01. > :31:05.political impact of the Levinson enquiry over the past several years
:31:05. > :31:09.is close to zero, because most voters don't care and those who do
:31:09. > :31:12.care tends to believe that all parties are roughly equally
:31:12. > :31:19.complicit in being too close to editors. You said that the claims
:31:20. > :31:30.that Adam Afriyie was a Labour maul -- mole, this has been a dream for
:31:30. > :31:35.Ed Miliband. I am taking on Murdoch, the energy companies, and now the
:31:35. > :31:39.evil Daily Mail! Are used to work for the Daily Mail, so I have to
:31:39. > :31:43.take that into account. When they printed the right of reply, they
:31:43. > :31:47.surrounded it with a big two fingers up at him. If they hadn't done
:31:47. > :31:53.that, they probably would not be in the position they are in now. The
:31:53. > :31:56.poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows that most people think
:31:56. > :32:00.the Daily Mail was wrong. If you defend your dad, people will
:32:00. > :32:04.naturally do this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory
:32:04. > :32:09.conference. The media likes covering itself and here it is doing it
:32:09. > :32:13.again. This has been a dream for Ed Miliband. The political significance
:32:13. > :32:17.of this is that David Cameron said that he wanted to try to find some
:32:17. > :32:23.common ground between the three party Royal Charter and the
:32:23. > :32:26.so-called press Royal Charter which is half of the press industry which
:32:26. > :32:29.has signed up to it. The Daily Mail has ensured that the Prime Minister
:32:29. > :32:33.will not be able to do that. What will happen this week is that the
:32:34. > :32:39.press Royal Charter has to be considered first. That will probably
:32:39. > :32:46.be rejected. Then what will happen is the three party Royal Charter in
:32:46. > :32:49.will come up, but meanwhile there will still be a press regulatory
:32:49. > :32:53.body because the Royal Charter is not a proper statutory underpinning
:32:53. > :32:59.and they will therefore be able to go ahead with that. Basically, it
:32:59. > :33:03.will all just go into the long grass and it will be an impasse that will
:33:03. > :33:07.probably not be resolved. That you say that nobody much cares about
:33:07. > :33:14.this outside of our profession. My point is that this has been great
:33:14. > :33:18.politics for Ed Miliband. Is only great politics if he scores a
:33:18. > :33:21.relative victory, if he's seen to be pure than the other party leaders.
:33:21. > :33:25.There is little evidence of that so far. I take your point about the
:33:25. > :33:30.poll that shows people are sympathetic to him. He says that, I
:33:30. > :33:34.am the chap who stands up a vested interest. That all the vested
:33:34. > :33:38.interests he stands up to people you would expect a left-wing politician
:33:38. > :33:46.to want to take on, Murdoch, the mail and so on. It is about who he
:33:46. > :33:50.has stated before, who is his father. Maybe people thought of him
:33:50. > :33:59.as a Marxist and now people think of him as a hero. It is approaching
:33:59. > :34:06.11:35am. You are watching the Sunday Politics.
:34:06. > :34:09.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up, how
:34:09. > :34:16.the cost of living issue could cost the political parties. They have all
:34:16. > :34:20.been anxious to address the problem. The next Labour government will
:34:20. > :34:28.freeze gas and electricity prices until the start of 2017. Can I
:34:28. > :34:35.recall a measure introduced by a leader of a major political party in
:34:35. > :34:40.the UK which has received such widespread and utter and total
:34:40. > :34:44.condemnation? ! I see that the Labour Party has stopped talking
:34:44. > :34:48.about fuel prices and energy prices and now they are talking about the
:34:48. > :34:51.cost of living prices, as if one was not directly related to the other.
:34:51. > :34:54.So with the pound in your pocket seeming to drain away, how are you
:34:55. > :35:00.being affected by the cost of living, and is it a crisis? I didn't
:35:00. > :35:05.think, when I was retired, I thought I would be comfortable. I own my
:35:05. > :35:11.house and I have no mortgage. I am still struggling.
:35:11. > :35:14.Hello. The Prime Minister talked about it, Holyrood debated it and Ed
:35:14. > :35:18.Miliband even mentioned it in a letter of complaint to the Mail on
:35:18. > :35:21.Sunday. Yes, the cost of living has dominated debate. It probably stems
:35:21. > :35:27.from so-called Red Ed's pledge to freeze energy prices. So how can
:35:27. > :35:30.politicians address the problem, and who is to blame anyway? Here's Niall
:35:30. > :35:36.O'Gallagher's take on the week's events.
:35:36. > :35:54.Counting the cost. Inverness man Eddie Collins keeps a close eye on
:35:54. > :35:58.the energy users. He has to do. Armed with his latest meter
:35:58. > :36:06.reading, Eddie scours the internet for the best deals. Prices keep
:36:06. > :36:12.rising, but as a pensioner, his income is fixed. Every penny counts.
:36:12. > :36:21.I monitor my costs monthly, and also in between the months and I do a
:36:21. > :36:25.forecast once a week to get a meeting -- a reading and I put it
:36:25. > :36:28.into the computer and it gives me a forecast of what I will need for the
:36:28. > :36:32.end of the month. The pressure on consumers is pushing up the
:36:32. > :36:37.political temperature. Ed Miliband wants to see prices capped. But his
:36:37. > :36:42.opponents say the government should get out of the control room. The
:36:42. > :36:46.energy promise, they admitted 24 hours later they would not be able
:36:46. > :36:52.to keep it. It is all sticking plasters and quick fixes, together
:36:52. > :36:58.for the cameras. Read Ed and his blue Peter economy. Will the
:36:59. > :37:02.Minister simply match that commitment for his preferred
:37:02. > :37:09.separate Scotland and you regulator? Never can I recall a
:37:09. > :37:15.measure introduced by a leader of a major political party in the UK
:37:15. > :37:24.which has received such widespread utter and total condemnation as
:37:24. > :37:27.being completely unworkable! Ministers seemed complete the aware
:37:27. > :37:31.he was trashing the idea of a cap as Ministers seemed complete the aware
:37:31. > :37:34.they made their way into the chamber for first ministers questions.
:37:34. > :37:45.Later, the Scotsman said their expert commission could look at the
:37:45. > :37:49.Labour proposed freeze to. Today, we saw Fergus Ewing give the game away.
:37:49. > :37:55.None of you agree with it and you on the side of the energy companies and
:37:55. > :37:58.not on the side of ordinary people. I thought I would be more
:37:58. > :38:05.comfortable when I was retired. I own my house and I have no mortgage.
:38:05. > :38:08.I'm still struggling. Eddie expects prices to keep going up and is
:38:08. > :38:14.sceptical about the ability of politicians to pin the energy
:38:14. > :38:19.companies back. Labour think this is fertile ground for them, as they
:38:19. > :38:25.pursue their cost of living agenda. The question for voters is whether
:38:25. > :38:29.pruning prices will help coax the economy back to growth or stop the
:38:29. > :38:38.green shoots from breaking through. I'm joined now in the studio by
:38:38. > :38:41.Stewart Maxwell. He is an SNP MSP. From Edinburgh we have Scottish
:38:41. > :38:51.Labour's finance spokesman Ian Gray and his counterpart from the
:38:51. > :38:56.Conservatives, Gavin Brown. The SNP split over energy price freeze, that
:38:56. > :39:00.was in the headlines this week. Is there a split in the SNP over Ed
:39:00. > :39:04.Miliband's plans to freeze energy prices? There is no split, I know
:39:04. > :39:08.the papers enjoy that kind of thing, but there is no split. We are
:39:08. > :39:11.focused on trying to reduce household bills in Scotland. It is
:39:11. > :39:15.an interesting idea for Labour to freeze energy prices, but the
:39:15. > :39:19.problem they face if they have published no information or evidence
:39:19. > :39:26.or background research, so we have no idea whether that is feasible or
:39:26. > :39:38.not. Is an interesting that -- idea, and we all want to see a full
:39:38. > :39:42.analysis. Yes, but many senior people both in the industry and the
:39:42. > :39:46.Labour Party have said that, frankly, they doubt it is even
:39:46. > :39:49.workable or can even be in demented. There are clear problems with the
:39:49. > :39:53.policy they have put forward. We are focusing on what we can do and we
:39:53. > :39:58.have made sure that, for example, we have frozen council tax. That will
:39:58. > :40:02.save the average household in Scotland £1200 by the end of this
:40:02. > :40:08.Parliament. Labour's energy policy, even if it is implementable, would
:40:08. > :40:12.only save £120. So we are doing much more already through this proposal.
:40:12. > :40:15.£120 is a lot of money for a lot of people. In principle, would you
:40:15. > :40:19.welcome this policy? If you could sort out some of the tweaks here and
:40:19. > :40:24.there, would you like a policy to freeze energy prices if you could
:40:24. > :40:28.work one? Absolutely, we welcome the principle of keeping all household
:40:28. > :40:32.bills down, which is why we have scrapped tuition fees, prescription
:40:32. > :40:36.charges and bridge tolls. The point is that we have put this whole
:40:36. > :40:40.policy, as well as other things to do with energy regulation, into an
:40:40. > :40:45.expert commission. Let's not three judge the work of the expert
:40:45. > :40:48.commission. It into the long grass? Not at all. They will get energy
:40:49. > :40:52.regulation and not with whether or not this is a workable policy.
:40:52. > :40:58.Frankly, we have not had any evidence from Labour that it is. The
:40:58. > :41:01.Scottish government has sent this to an expert commission and will look
:41:01. > :41:06.at it in more detail than just an off-the-cuff announcement at
:41:06. > :41:09.conference. Is this policy workable? It is workable and there
:41:09. > :41:15.is nothing off-the-cuff about it. It is not just about the energy
:41:15. > :41:23.crisised price freeze -- energy price freeze. We want to introduce a
:41:23. > :41:28.more open wholesale market, but also a strong regulator will stop in
:41:28. > :41:31.Parliament this week, Fergus Ewing did not say that he did not believe
:41:31. > :41:37.it was possible to freeze energy prices, he also said that an
:41:37. > :41:42.independent Scotland might see an independent regulator. I know that
:41:42. > :41:49.Stuart is keen to say there is no split, but call me old-fashioned,
:41:49. > :41:52.but Fergus Ewing is this deck -- government's energy minister, and if
:41:52. > :41:55.he says this policy is impossible and they will not pursue it, surely
:41:56. > :41:59.that is the policy of the Scottish government. So either we stay part
:41:59. > :42:04.of the United Kingdom and benefit from a freeze in energy prices and a
:42:04. > :42:07.strong regulator he then continued to regulate those unfair prices, or
:42:07. > :42:10.we going to an independent Scotland with Fergus Ewing's policy of
:42:10. > :42:14.allowing energy companies to continue to put their prices up
:42:15. > :42:19.willy-nilly. I think we heard from the energy companies, he thought the
:42:19. > :42:23.policy was unworkable. Fergus Ewing was giving some examples from
:42:23. > :42:26.California where a similar policy had catastrophic consequences. Let
:42:26. > :42:34.me address the California example. It is ridiculous. The reason the
:42:34. > :42:38.California energy market collapsed and had blackouts was not because
:42:38. > :42:42.there were controls on prices, but because the energy market was run by
:42:42. > :42:47.Enron, who illegally manipulated the market to create energy shortages.
:42:47. > :42:51.Unless Fergus Ewing is suggesting that the SNP in an independent
:42:51. > :42:55.Scotland will let Enron run our energy markets, that is simply not
:42:55. > :43:00.going to happen. I think that example, it really shows you how
:43:00. > :43:04.desperate the SNP are to rubbish the policy because they know they are on
:43:04. > :43:09.the wrong side of this, on the side of the energy companies is set off
:43:09. > :43:12.on the side of hard-pressed consumers. 900,000 households in
:43:12. > :43:17.Scotland live in fuel poverty. That is the side we are on. They are on
:43:17. > :43:21.the side of the energy companies. Stewart Maxwell, a quick response
:43:21. > :43:25.from you. That is clearly nonsense. I have already pointed out that we
:43:25. > :43:30.are saving the average house or in Scotland ten times more through
:43:30. > :43:36.council tax freezing than through Labour's energy policy. Even Lord
:43:36. > :43:40.Mandelson has said this policy is unworkable. Let's that the expert
:43:40. > :43:43.commission have a go at this. I want to bring in Gavin Brown from the
:43:43. > :43:50.Conservatives. You are sitting on the sidelines on this debate, but Ed
:43:50. > :43:57.Miliband was really quite a fright for the Prime Minister when he made
:43:57. > :44:01.his promise. His poll ratings shot up and Mr Cameron was forced to
:44:01. > :44:05.address it in his conference speech. The idea of reading an energy bill
:44:05. > :44:09.is superficially attractive to consumers, but it is a short-term
:44:09. > :44:13.measure and I think there would be quite serious long-term
:44:13. > :44:16.implications. I would be concerned about the level of investment we
:44:16. > :44:23.would see from companies across the board as we try to move towards a
:44:23. > :44:26.low carbon economy. We already know that there is several hundred
:44:26. > :44:30.billion pounds of infrastructure investment needed to keep the lights
:44:31. > :44:34.on and in order to have a proper energy system in the future. I think
:44:34. > :44:38.this would potentially damaging. I think there are other investments
:44:38. > :44:42.you could take us are just giving greater powers to Ofgem and looking
:44:42. > :44:47.into price mechanisms and looking into mis-selling, for example. The
:44:47. > :44:55.energy bill itself will force energy companies to have the lowest
:44:55. > :44:59.possible tariff for consumers. There are things that can be done, but
:44:59. > :45:07.they do think that this policy of Mr Miliband is unworkable and I -- and
:45:07. > :45:11.it will have damaging long-term publications -- implications. All
:45:11. > :45:15.three of your parties are complicit in higher energy bills because of
:45:15. > :45:20.the extra tariff levied for green renewable investment. One analysis
:45:20. > :45:27.today in the Sunday Telegraph puts it at £425 in higher bills over the
:45:27. > :45:33.next six years. Stewart Maxwell cup -- of the SNP, you need that
:45:33. > :45:38.investment in green technology. Yes, and the investment will provide many
:45:38. > :45:41.jobs going forward, and it will be a hugely important part of the
:45:41. > :45:45.Scottish economy going forward. We must replace the carbon heavy fuels
:45:45. > :45:49.that we use at the moment. Yes, we have to invest in it, and that is
:45:49. > :45:53.one of the big questions about Labour's policy. What damaging
:45:53. > :46:01.consequences would it have for the future of green energy? Ed Miliband
:46:01. > :46:09.was the person who introduced the energy secretary -- green tariff as
:46:09. > :46:12.energy secretary. We do need investment for the shift to
:46:12. > :46:16.renewables. One of the lesser noticed aspects of Fergus Ewing's
:46:16. > :46:20.intervention in Parliament was that he also described something that
:46:20. > :46:24.would destroy the single integrated energy market in the United Kingdom,
:46:24. > :46:28.so the cost you are referring to, instead of being spread between 60
:46:28. > :46:33.million essential consumers in the UK might well for 5 million
:46:33. > :46:40.consumers in Scotland, and that is a policy which we would certainly
:46:40. > :46:44.think would put our energy bills up. The coalition government have not
:46:44. > :46:48.done enough to tackle the high fuel bills. Had they are on the side of
:46:48. > :46:54.vested interests. They are taking action, and the Conservatives
:46:54. > :46:58.leaving balanced measures. We believe nuclear power needs to be a
:46:58. > :47:02.part of the energy mix. That, of course, is low-carbon, and you would
:47:02. > :47:07.not therefore need quite the same levels you would need under SNP
:47:07. > :47:13.proposals. Let's look at other living costs
:47:13. > :47:15.issues. We had a debate in Parliament this week where Labour
:47:15. > :47:20.accused the Scottish governance of not doing enough to help people with
:47:20. > :47:23.the cost of living. Frankly, that is nonsense. If we had had a Labour
:47:23. > :47:26.the cost of living. Frankly, that is government in Scotland just now, we
:47:26. > :47:30.would still have tuition fees and prescription charges. They were
:47:30. > :47:35.having outstayed commission that would roll back all the progress
:47:35. > :47:38.that has been made on free bus passes for the elderly and other
:47:38. > :47:42.people, and we would not have had the council tax freeze that is
:47:43. > :47:48.saving the average household £1200 by the time this car -- Parliament
:47:48. > :47:52.is completed. We are doing everything we possibly can and we
:47:52. > :47:57.have had over £260 million of investment over three years for
:47:57. > :48:02.energy-saving measures. A lot of work is being done. Ian Gray from
:48:02. > :48:10.Labour, it sounds like a shopping list to tackle the cost of living.
:48:10. > :48:14.We have paid for cuts in services in many other ways. If this is the
:48:14. > :48:20.SNP's approach to addressing the cost of living, it isn't working.
:48:20. > :48:26.900,000 households in Scotland are in fuel poverty. That is increasing.
:48:26. > :48:30.The way in which these things have been paid for, we demonstrated
:48:30. > :48:36.through the week that this was because of the disappearance of £1
:48:37. > :48:42.billion of anti-poverty programmes. You use that to do things like make
:48:42. > :48:46.prescriptions free. My prescriptions are free now. That is not the way
:48:46. > :48:49.you address the cost of living for those who are most seriously
:48:49. > :48:52.affected. He talks about the investment the government are
:48:52. > :48:59.making, but if we look at capital investment, the government refused
:48:59. > :49:04.to make sure that the investment is creating local, high-quality,
:49:04. > :49:10.full-time and permanent jobs. We support investment in the economy,
:49:10. > :49:16.not investment in zero hours contract jobs. We need the Scottish
:49:16. > :49:21.governance do far more on this. There was a debate through the
:49:21. > :49:27.week... I want to get onto Gavin Brown. Mr Gray made the point about
:49:27. > :49:31.targeted and universal benefits, but the fact is that universal benefits
:49:31. > :49:35.are extremely popular with voters, although the Conservatives probably
:49:36. > :49:39.want more targeted benefits. I think you need a blend of both. The
:49:39. > :49:42.government needs to do to maximise here. We need to focus on the
:49:42. > :49:48.economy and get the economy moving so that we can get people back into
:49:48. > :49:51.work. We also need to look at specific measures that have been
:49:51. > :49:56.highlighted as particularly challenging. The UK government, for
:49:56. > :50:00.example, raised income tax threshold to £10,000, or it will be by April
:50:00. > :50:04.next year. That takes hundreds of thousands of people out of tax
:50:04. > :50:07.altogether and gives them more money in their pocket. Freezing the fuel
:50:07. > :50:12.duty which has happened now for three years and it is hoped will go
:50:12. > :50:17.on until the end of the Westminster Parliament, that puts money back
:50:17. > :50:21.into people's pockets saving not just motorists, but also people in
:50:21. > :50:31.rural areas, feeding into the general cost of the economy. And I
:50:31. > :50:37.want to pick up with that point. And we saw the clip from the Prime
:50:37. > :50:42.Minister at the start of the programme. In his conference speech,
:50:42. > :50:49.he was talking about fixing macro economic stuff. He was wanting to
:50:49. > :50:55.address the cost of living. Is this Labour 's problem that we are in
:50:55. > :51:00.this mess in the first place? No, the Prime Minister has made a mess
:51:00. > :51:03.of this. What about the figures we saw this week which showed that in
:51:03. > :51:12.the last year, 500,000 Scottish people borrowed money to buy food.
:51:12. > :51:18.That is the date basis. That is a problem people are facing BN, PO. It
:51:18. > :51:23.is caused by the decisions made in both Westminster and Holyrood.
:51:23. > :51:32.Freezing energy prices would be a start. I want to look at other
:51:32. > :51:36.headlines. And you defence paper coming out on Tuesday. A warning
:51:37. > :51:43.that an independent Scotland could not inherit the traditional
:51:44. > :51:50.regiments. Philip Hammond has already said Scotland would inherit
:51:50. > :51:56.its fair share of the assets, so let us put the scaremongering to bed. If
:51:56. > :52:01.you are being faced by redundancy at the moment from the conservative
:52:01. > :52:06.party and fill Howard Hammond is seen you will be sacked, or you
:52:06. > :52:12.could join the Scottish defence Force and no redundancies will be
:52:12. > :52:18.there, I think people will very proudly choose to serve any Scottish
:52:18. > :52:26.defence force. Scaremongering from the Secretary of State for defence?
:52:26. > :52:32.I think the point in the papers is that it is inherent on several
:52:32. > :52:44.points. The simple carve up of Scottish regiments simply would not
:52:44. > :52:47.be the case. It is up to serving personnel to decide what they would
:52:47. > :52:55.want to do in the event of separation. But I has to be said
:52:55. > :53:02.that Scotland would not get automatic entry into Natal. This is
:53:02. > :53:07.another example of how the SNP prospective is based on wishful
:53:07. > :53:11.thinking, for the let us to do with Europe, Natal or carving up Scottish
:53:11. > :53:20.regiments. The applicant then they could do these things and it is a
:53:20. > :53:24.dishonest prospectus to offer the population of Scotland.
:53:24. > :53:29.So, that is what the politicians have to say. How are people really
:53:29. > :53:32.coping with a definite decline in their living standards. In a moment,
:53:32. > :53:36.we will explore what a couple of experts have to say on the matter,
:53:36. > :53:45.but first, here is a look at life when bills are going up and money is
:53:45. > :53:53.tight. Just over six years ago, we walled in cheap energy prices and
:53:53. > :54:00.low interest rates. No, annual income is not matching expenditure.
:54:00. > :54:09.As increasing numbers seek help, what are the asking about? Problems
:54:09. > :54:14.with date and increasingly people not having the money to boot into
:54:14. > :54:19.prepayment meters. They are getting extortion bells and one a date will
:54:19. > :54:23.never be able to pay them. There are also other increasing pressures on
:54:23. > :54:27.their income. The utility bills are going up and the food is going up.
:54:27. > :54:32.The money they have got coming in, whether from jobs are benefits, is
:54:32. > :54:37.getting cut and not going as far as it did even just a couple of years
:54:37. > :54:46.ago. Things ain't what they used to be. Citizens advice Scotland seat
:54:46. > :54:54.they saw a one third rise in people worried about energy bills.
:54:55. > :55:02.Remarkably, there was a 87% rise in people asking about warm home
:55:02. > :55:06.discount or in surely she areas. It shows how keen people are about the
:55:06. > :55:10.energy bills. I am joined here in the studio by
:55:10. > :55:13.Jim McCormick of the Rowntree Foundation and, in our Edinburgh
:55:13. > :55:23.studio, by business and economics journalist Bill Jamieson. Thank you
:55:23. > :55:28.for joining me. Jim, you are looking closely at the cost of living. What
:55:28. > :55:34.is the snapshot pictures you are seen? Every year, we ask the British
:55:34. > :55:45.public what would be an a basket of goods adequate for living. That
:55:45. > :55:49.level of income that we have seen as a 25% increase in the cost of
:55:49. > :55:54.essentials, the likes of food, energy and childcare. Given that
:55:54. > :56:00.wages, tax credits and benefits have either stalled or been cut in
:56:00. > :56:03.certain places, people on low to moderate incomes have been
:56:03. > :56:06.struggling to keep the head above the water, in terms of the gap
:56:06. > :56:10.between the income and living standards. It is right that
:56:10. > :56:17.politicians should address this agenda. Bill Jamieson, you study the
:56:17. > :56:24.cost of living a lot and rate about it a lot. Is this a picture you
:56:24. > :56:30.recognise? I was it affecting different sectors of society, the
:56:30. > :56:34.working class, the middle-class, to use the old labels. We are seeing
:56:34. > :56:40.polarisation in the highest rate. We have seen figures from Tesco which
:56:40. > :56:48.showed the dramatic fall in profits. People are going to the low-cost end
:56:48. > :56:53.of shopping, such as liberals and other shops like that. At the top
:56:53. > :57:00.end, there are great performances by the likes of Waitrose, who are doing
:57:00. > :57:05.extraordinarily well. Luxury car sales are up 12%. Well it is right
:57:06. > :57:11.to focus on the low end of the scale, whether as hardship, we are
:57:11. > :57:16.seeing polarisation. That is an interesting point, the polarisation.
:57:16. > :57:19.There is a gap between the well-off middle classes and the working
:57:19. > :57:25.classes, but also the working brewer, actually. In Parliament this
:57:26. > :57:33.week, we were hearing about people who are working going to food
:57:33. > :57:40.banks. I think the scale of this surprises politicians of all
:57:40. > :57:44.parties. When politicians are in opposition, they are very keen to
:57:44. > :57:48.express opinions on this, but when they are in government, there has
:57:48. > :58:01.never been a cop even responds to this. This not only refers to likes
:58:01. > :58:04.of childcare, but if you are on EPA meter, you are paying a higher tire
:58:04. > :58:13.tariffs, so people who have less choice as can tumours are the most
:58:13. > :58:18.vulnerable. It is not just people out of work, but people and workers
:58:18. > :58:23.well. The way the childcare market operates, we see very high cost, but
:58:23. > :58:28.very patchy quality. The government needs to address not just energy,
:58:28. > :58:33.but private rents and what is happening in childcare. Politicians
:58:33. > :58:39.have to hear the complaints about the cost of living, so what do you
:58:39. > :58:43.make of attempts made this week and the three gentlemen you have here
:58:43. > :58:49.from. What you think of the attempts to address this? I do not think
:58:49. > :58:55.there is a lot they can do in the image of town. I think we are in for
:58:55. > :58:58.the long haul here. I think week the reason we are seeing this
:58:58. > :59:05.polarisation I was talking about, for people who already have assets,
:59:05. > :59:12.such as property or shearers in companies, they are doing very well.
:59:12. > :59:18.The property boom raised the price of assets. If you do not have
:59:18. > :59:25.assets, not a lot will happen for you. This will time to address. As I
:59:25. > :59:34.missing, why we are seeing buoyant sales at the high end of the market.
:59:34. > :59:39.On television tonight, we have seen a high end television drama queer
:59:39. > :59:48.Tesco are taking advertising space in it. We're also seeing the
:59:48. > :59:52.difference mortgage rates compare to the mortgage outgoings compared to
:59:52. > :00:01.the 1980s and 1990s. That is a big difference for many households.
:00:01. > :00:04.People who do not have assets are turning to payday loan lenders and
:00:04. > :00:12.we will see will legislation about this to tighten up on that next
:00:12. > :00:15.week. Although energy, companies would like customers to pick up the
:00:15. > :00:21.phone and let them know when they are having problems paying bills,
:00:21. > :00:31.more often than not, people will ignore any warning let us went to
:00:31. > :00:38.these payday loans. We have the likes of help to buy schemes and
:00:38. > :00:47.other payday lending licensing schemes. The question is how we do
:00:48. > :00:54.this intelligently. The response from business from regulation, the
:00:54. > :00:59.response was interesting. The big six energy companies took fright.
:00:59. > :01:05.How can be what the semi-capitalist system where we regulate these
:01:05. > :01:10.markets and to taxpayers have a raw deal? When you liked it utility
:01:10. > :01:19.companies were privatised, we are still picking up the tab, paying for
:01:19. > :01:26.higher real fears and energy prices? Yes, the joys of privatisation have
:01:26. > :01:29.worn very thin. We have not seen the likes of competition that we hoped
:01:30. > :01:37.we would see which would keep prices down. There is certainly a cause for
:01:37. > :01:52.ramping up the regulatory muscle. There is a feeling that that one
:01:52. > :01:58.will be in that industry for the likes of a year or 18 months before
:01:58. > :02:02.regulation will stamp down on it. But we are faced with the vagaries
:02:02. > :02:09.of energy prices, which are out with our control, as are the oil prices.
:02:09. > :02:14.We are is the rate balance, the fear and efficient balance, between the
:02:14. > :02:20.cost to the consumer and the government. People would argue that
:02:20. > :02:24.we still have to get the balance right.
:02:24. > :02:28.You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC. We have still
:02:28. > :02:32.got our look at the Week Ahead to come, with our two pundits, Gillian
:02:32. > :02:35.Bowditch of The Sunday Times and Murray Ritchie, the former political
:02:35. > :02:41.editor of The Herald. But first, let us cross to Alisdair Fraser for the
:02:41. > :02:45.latest news from Reporting Scotland. Good afternoon. An investigation has
:02:45. > :02:49.begun after two prison officers were injured during a disturbance
:02:49. > :02:52.yesterday at Scotland's newest jail. The incident at Low Moss prison in
:02:52. > :02:56.East Dunbartonshire lasted more than seven hours. It is understood that
:02:56. > :03:00.only a small number of prisoners were involved.
:03:00. > :03:06.A motorcyclist has died in a road accident in the Highlands. It
:03:06. > :03:10.happened on the A87 Invergarry to Kyle of Lochalsh road near Bun Loyne
:03:10. > :03:13.in the Highlands, just before five o'clock yesterday evening. The
:03:13. > :03:16.51-year-old man has not been named. Some of the world's top athletes are
:03:16. > :03:20.pounding the streets of Glasgow today in the Great Scottish Run.
:03:20. > :03:31.Around 23,000 runners are taking part in the half-marathon and 10k
:03:31. > :03:35.events. Olympic gold-medallist Kathleen Grainger started the event.
:03:35. > :03:37.The route passes some of the city's most famous landmarks, iconic
:03:38. > :03:40.buildings and Commonwealth Games venues. Late running engineering
:03:40. > :03:43.works had delayed some runners travelling to the event by train,
:03:43. > :03:47.but ScotRail say their service is back to normal.
:03:47. > :03:51.Time now for a look at the weather with Judith.
:03:51. > :04:00.Good afternoon. Quite a settled look to the weather, which is good news
:04:00. > :04:10.for these runners that you were just seen. Some thick cloud across the
:04:10. > :04:14.south-west, which will lead to rain in the likes of Galloway. Bails
:04:14. > :04:22.particularly in the East of Scotland. Quite breezy along the
:04:22. > :04:26.East Coast -- West Coast. That is all for now. Reporting
:04:26. > :04:39.Scotland is back at 6.10pm. Thanks, Alisdair. It has been a busy
:04:39. > :04:50.week in politics. Here is our look back at the past seven days in 60
:04:50. > :04:57.seconds. Hundreds of patients in NHS client had their appointments
:04:57. > :05:02.postponed GGA, future failure. Plans to close police stations out
:05:02. > :05:06.for consultation. Upto 1000 new jobs are being created
:05:06. > :05:13.in Scotland by a major call centre operator.
:05:13. > :05:16.Tram testing starts next week in Edinburgh. Residents have been
:05:16. > :05:22.warned to look out for them at junctions.
:05:22. > :05:26.And the Scottish Green party's annual conference has been held in
:05:26. > :05:30.Inverness. Delegates were told the party could play a key role in
:05:30. > :05:34.convincing Scots to vote for independence in the referendum. We
:05:34. > :05:38.do have to work harder to knock on more doors, to work with building
:05:38. > :05:46.relationships with more voters, to persuade them to put across in the
:05:46. > :05:53.box for the Green party. Let's turn our attention to the week
:05:53. > :05:57.ahead with our pundits. I'm joined here in the studio by Jim
:05:57. > :06:00.McCormick of the Rowntree Foundation, and in our Edinburgh
:06:00. > :06:17.studio we have Bill Jamieson, the business and economics journalist.
:06:17. > :06:20.Her bark -- I'm joined here in the studio by Gillian Bowditch of the
:06:20. > :06:24.Sunday Times, and Murray Ritchie, the former Political Editor of the
:06:24. > :06:31.Herald. What you think about the cost of living and what politicians
:06:31. > :06:35.had to say? Very interesting to hear politicians speak on this subject.
:06:35. > :06:39.What I think is that, superficially, it has attracted the idea of
:06:39. > :06:43.controlling energy prices. In practice, there was little the
:06:43. > :06:47.politicians can do. It is about wages and inflation and prices, and
:06:47. > :06:56.they don't have the mechanism to make a big difference. What it comes
:06:56. > :06:58.down to, you can freeze energy prices, but you can bet your bottom
:06:58. > :07:02.dollar that the energy prices will prices, but you can bet your bottom
:07:02. > :07:05.go up before the 20 month deadline and they will go up again at the end
:07:05. > :07:08.of it. It is something that people are very concerned about, but what
:07:08. > :07:13.the politicians have to do is ensure that the economy is in a state where
:07:13. > :07:19.we are going to create general prosperity and wealth. It is tough
:07:19. > :07:23.for the politicians, isn't it? Particularly those in the UK
:07:23. > :07:28.government and Holyrood, it is difficult for them to address these
:07:28. > :07:30.living cost issues. In the conference season, the party leaders
:07:31. > :07:36.always look to the polls. They always want to try to find a comment
:07:36. > :07:38.or a promise or a statement, something that will help their
:07:38. > :07:43.or a promise or a statement, standing in the opinion polls. It
:07:43. > :07:49.worked brilliantly for Ed Miliband. His comments on freezing energy were
:07:49. > :07:54.brilliant, and the Prime Minister had to respond. He said that he
:07:54. > :07:57.would control the cost of living, as though he could cost -- sap his
:07:57. > :08:02.fingers and it would happen. As Gillian said, this is rhetoric and
:08:02. > :08:06.not action. It frightens people like this and this time of year when we
:08:06. > :08:09.are looking at polls and all the rest of it, they out in the real
:08:09. > :08:16.world, I am not sure people respond to this greatly. People are looking
:08:16. > :08:19.for real action. Yes, people are suffering. Compared to five years
:08:20. > :08:23.ago, wages are suppressed and prices have gone up, so people really
:08:23. > :08:27.notice it. The thing that has to happen is that the economy has to
:08:27. > :08:31.get going. There is no point doing a huge amount about prices, you cannot
:08:31. > :08:33.do that. But you can create prosperity so that people have more
:08:33. > :08:41.money in their pockets and they have better paying jobs. That is where
:08:41. > :08:45.the focus has to be. Let's turn our focus to the independence
:08:45. > :08:50.referendum. The Greens have been having their conference in
:08:50. > :08:53.Inverness. Murray, have you seen the role of the Greens in the
:08:53. > :09:00.referendum? They were debating that, the story today was about an
:09:00. > :09:04.apparent so-called split in the yes campaign and the Greenstone want the
:09:05. > :09:08.pound. When I was convener of the independence convention after my
:09:08. > :09:12.retirement, we invited the Greens join and they were hesitant. Some of
:09:12. > :09:15.them supported independence and some supported devolution. They have
:09:15. > :09:20.since embrace independence, but I think they were always worried that
:09:20. > :09:27.this would be seen as an Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon and
:09:27. > :09:34.venture, and even Labour voters would be kept to the side. It is
:09:34. > :09:39.good to see the Greens emerging from this with their own policies and
:09:39. > :09:47.they have very cogent arguments to make about how Scotland would be a
:09:47. > :09:50.better place under independence environmentally. And Gillian, do you
:09:50. > :09:56.think they are uneasy bedfellows with the SNP? Patrick Harvie has
:09:56. > :10:00.always said that the form of independence being offered by SNP
:10:00. > :10:07.and Alex Salmond is a deceptive form of independence. It is not that I
:10:07. > :10:11.must -- it is not an honest form of independence. The Greens want to see
:10:11. > :10:14.a radical form of independence, separating from the pound and the
:10:14. > :10:18.monarchy and the state. It is all the things that Alex Salmond is
:10:18. > :10:21.trying to fudge just now. Patrick Harvie has said that people have to
:10:21. > :10:24.make this hard decision and cannot pretend it will be all things to all
:10:24. > :10:28.people. That is where the fundamental difference is. The
:10:28. > :10:35.Greens? Vision of independence would make Scotland, the cost of living
:10:35. > :10:39.would go screaming up some of that policies were introduced. But
:10:39. > :10:47.intellectually, it is a more honest version of independence. Murray, the
:10:47. > :10:51.front page of the Scotland on Sunday today, MoD warns SNP on control of
:10:51. > :10:57.unit after independence. This looks like it's coming out in a White
:10:57. > :11:00.Paper on Tuesday. Does this complicate matters? They seem to be
:11:00. > :11:04.saying that Scottish regiments would not be Scottish any more. Think
:11:04. > :11:08.about that. All these guys in kilts playing bagpipes marching down the
:11:09. > :11:11.street saying, we are an English regiment will sub it does not
:11:11. > :11:20.compute. There will be questions to be settled. End the stories are
:11:20. > :11:25.coming out, being churned out in Whitehall and Westminster and
:11:25. > :11:29.saying, Scotland can't do this on that. We're going to get a lot more
:11:29. > :11:32.of that. Their answers to all of these things. Only one question has
:11:32. > :11:37.been settled so far and that is Europe. The yes campaign have won
:11:37. > :11:41.the European debate hands down. We're not going to be thrown out of
:11:41. > :11:44.Europe, we will be members of the European Union, and all that remains
:11:44. > :11:50.is a negotiation about how much we pay for it. As for the rear -- rest
:11:50. > :11:55.of it, there is still a debate going on. There is more debate and more
:11:55. > :11:58.interested these papers coming out from the UK government. Is it
:11:58. > :12:03.arrogant of the UK government to say, hang on, these are Scottish
:12:03. > :12:06.regiments would be Scottish? It is to be critical, because the success
:12:06. > :12:10.of Labour and Conservative governments have hacked Scottish
:12:10. > :12:17.regiments right down. We have lost a lot of them over successive English
:12:17. > :12:26.governments, so it is rich to come out and say you're going to lose the
:12:26. > :12:39.Black Watch. However, having said that, defensive a big issue, it is a
:12:39. > :12:43.lot of jobs are a huge part of Scottish life. I think that to
:12:43. > :12:45.recreate a defence industry for Scotland or the whole issue of
:12:45. > :12:48.defence is going to be extremely costly, when we do actually have
:12:48. > :12:49.something that works quite well just now. And finally, the Cabinet
:12:49. > :12:52.reshuffle. The former defence secretary Liam Fox, rumours of a
:12:52. > :12:54.Cabinet reshuffle on Monday or Tuesday. Murray, do you think Liam
:12:54. > :13:03.Fox will make a reappearance in government? I haven't the faintest
:13:03. > :13:06.idea is! I imagine he must come back sometime, and Philip Hammond is not
:13:06. > :13:11.the most popular defence secretary we have ever had. He was even booed
:13:11. > :13:17.at the Tory conference. And Gillian? What is interesting about
:13:17. > :13:22.the reshuffle is the potential for women in government. Liz truss and
:13:22. > :13:27.Karen Bradley may start to move into more senior jobs. It may be a
:13:27. > :13:35.welcome change to see some more women around the table. And talk of
:13:35. > :13:38.one planning Minister he might go. He was bored of speeding about
:13:38. > :13:42.planning applications! Thank you very much.
:13:42. > :13:45.That is all from as this week. We are back at the same time next week.
:13:45. > :13:47.From all others on the Sunday Politics Scotland team, enjoyed
:13:47. > :13:51.afternoon. Goodbye.