:00:36. > :00:39.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.Alex Salmond says a vote for Scottish independence would be an
:00:44. > :00:48."act of national self-belief". His deputy Nicola Sturgeon joins us live
:00:49. > :00:52.from the SNP conference in Perth. Is Whitehall meddling too much in
:00:53. > :00:56.local affairs? Communities Secretary Eric Pickles joins me for the Sunday
:00:57. > :00:58.Interview. Senior coppers face their own
:00:59. > :01:02.questions in Parliament this week over the Andrew Mitchell affair. So
:01:03. > :01:06.has plebgate damaged trust in the police? A former detective and a
:01:07. > :01:09.critic of the police go head to head.
:01:10. > :01:12.And on Sunday Politics Scotland: We'll be at Grangemouth for the
:01:13. > :01:16.latest in the oil refinery dispute. And we'll be in Perth, speaking to
:01:17. > :01:27.the First Minister the day after his leader's speech.
:01:28. > :01:35.All of that to come. And the Home Office minister sacked by Nick
:01:36. > :01:40.Clegg, who says his party is like a wonky shopping trolley, which keeps
:01:41. > :01:48.veering off to the left. He will join us live at noon. With me to
:01:49. > :01:53.unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be
:01:54. > :01:59.tweeting throughout the programme, using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last
:02:00. > :02:02.day of the Scottish national party conference in Perth. We have
:02:03. > :02:06.discovered that Alex Salmond has been on the same diet as Beyonce.
:02:07. > :02:11.The SNP leader compared his attempts to lose weight with the campaign for
:02:12. > :02:17.independence - lots achieved so far, 20 more to do. In a moment, I will
:02:18. > :02:21.be joined by the deputy leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First,
:02:22. > :02:32.they report on the independence campaign. September 18 2014, the
:02:33. > :02:36.date of destiny for Scotland, the day when these campaigners hope its
:02:37. > :02:41.people will decide to vote yes for independence. In a recent poll, only
:02:42. > :02:46.14% said they knew enough to vote either way. That is unlikely to
:02:47. > :02:49.change any time soon. I think the Scottish people will be going to the
:02:50. > :02:53.polls next year still not knowing an awful lot of stuff which is
:02:54. > :02:58.important, because the outcome, in terms of taxation, debt, exactly
:02:59. > :03:02.what will happen to the allocation of assets between the two countries,
:03:03. > :03:06.will come about as a result of negotiation between a Scottish
:03:07. > :03:13.government and the UK Government. That is not stuff which will be
:03:14. > :03:17.known year. At the moment, polls suggest Scotland will decide to
:03:18. > :03:22.remain within the UK. A recent survey found that 44% of those
:03:23. > :03:28.questioned planned to vote no, 25% yes. But interestingly, the
:03:29. > :03:33.undecideds were at 31%, suggesting that Alex Salmond's task might be
:03:34. > :03:37.tough but not impossible. There are a number of reasons which make a
:03:38. > :03:42.vanilla campaign a good idea. It does not put off cautious voters, it
:03:43. > :03:46.allows for people to imagine their own version of what independence
:03:47. > :03:50.will be like, and crucially, it allows for the yes campaign to take
:03:51. > :03:54.advantage of any mistakes by the no campaign. In other words, the yes
:03:55. > :03:59.campaign are not out there with big ideas, they are just waiting for the
:04:00. > :04:03.no campaign to trip up. What we do know is that whatever happens next
:04:04. > :04:07.September, Scotland will be getting more power. From 2016, a separate
:04:08. > :04:11.income tax regime will come into force, giving the Scottish
:04:12. > :04:14.Parliament control over billions of pounds of revenue. What we do not
:04:15. > :04:17.know yet is how the alternative would pan out. There are issues
:04:18. > :04:23.which would be raised by independence, issues about how the
:04:24. > :04:26.national debt is allocated, what the currency will look like, how an
:04:27. > :04:30.independent Scotland would balance the books, because it would have a
:04:31. > :04:34.bigger job to do, even down the Whitehall government has to do.
:04:35. > :04:38.Those are really big issues, which a Scottish government would have to
:04:39. > :04:42.face, on top of whatever negotiation it had to have with the UK
:04:43. > :04:45.Government. The Scottish government's White Paper on
:04:46. > :04:52.independence, two to be published within weeks, should fill in some of
:04:53. > :04:55.the banks. But how Scotland votes in September may yet be determined by
:04:56. > :05:01.what it feels rather than what it knows. And joining me from Perth is
:05:02. > :05:08.Scotland's Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we
:05:09. > :05:12.meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson
:05:13. > :05:16.said, if this referendum fails, it will fail on the basis that people
:05:17. > :05:21.put their British identity ahead of their Scottish identity, so we have
:05:22. > :05:27.got to attack on the British identity - what does he mean? Gordon
:05:28. > :05:32.Wilson is a very respected, much loved former leader of the SNP. My
:05:33. > :05:36.view is that I do not think the independence referendum is really
:05:37. > :05:40.about identity. I am secure and proud of my Scottish identity, but
:05:41. > :05:48.this is a decision about where power best lies. Do decision-making powers
:05:49. > :05:51.best lie here in Scotland, with a government which is directly
:05:52. > :05:56.accountable to the people of Scotland, or does it best lie in
:05:57. > :05:59.Westminster, with governments which, very often, people in Scotland do
:06:00. > :06:07.not vote for? That is the issue at the heart of the campaign. Let me
:06:08. > :06:13.just clarify, you do not agree with him, that you need to go on the
:06:14. > :06:20.attack with regard to the British identity of Scottish people? No, I
:06:21. > :06:23.do not think we are required to attack British identity. It is
:06:24. > :06:28.absolutely compatible for somebody to feel a sense of British identity
:06:29. > :06:30.but still support Scottish independence, because Scottish
:06:31. > :06:35.independence is about a transfer of power. It is about good government,
:06:36. > :06:39.accountable government, ensuring that decisions are taking here in
:06:40. > :06:44.Scotland, by people who have got the biggest stake in getting those
:06:45. > :06:47.decisions right. I represent a constituency in the south side of
:06:48. > :06:51.Glasgow, and if you speak to many people in my constituency, if you
:06:52. > :06:55.ask them their national identity, many of them would say Irish,
:06:56. > :06:59.Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many of them will vote yes next year
:07:00. > :07:03.because they understand the issue at stake, which is the issue of where
:07:04. > :07:08.decisions are best taken. It looks like you are changing tack ex-, you
:07:09. > :07:12.have realised the softly softly approach, of saying that actually,
:07:13. > :07:15.nothing much will change, we will still have the Queen, the currency,
:07:16. > :07:24.and all the rest of it, is moving over towards voting for a left-wing
:07:25. > :07:29.future for Scotland... Well, I know that what we are doing is pointing
:07:30. > :07:34.out is pointing out the choice between two futures. If we vote yes,
:07:35. > :07:41.we take our own future into our own hands. We make sure that for ever
:07:42. > :07:46.after, we have governments which will be in demented policies which
:07:47. > :07:48.we have voted for. If we do not become independent, then we continue
:07:49. > :07:53.to run the risk of having governments not only that we do not
:07:54. > :07:57.vote for, but often, that Scotland rejects. We are seeing the
:07:58. > :08:01.dismantling of our system of social security. There are politicians in
:08:02. > :08:06.all of the UK parties who are itching to cut Scotland's share of
:08:07. > :08:10.spending. So Scotland faces a choice of two futures, and it is right to
:08:11. > :08:17.point out the positive consequences of voting yes, but also the
:08:18. > :08:21.consequences of voting no. But you are promising to reverse benefit
:08:22. > :08:24.cuts and increase the minimum wage. You would renationalise the Royal
:08:25. > :08:29.Mail, though how you would do that nobody knows. You are promising to
:08:30. > :08:34.cut energy bills. These are the kind of promises that parties make in a
:08:35. > :08:40.general election campaign, not in a once in 300 years extra stench or
:08:41. > :08:44.choice. Is the future of Scotland really going to be decided on the
:08:45. > :08:52.size of the minimum wage? -- existential choice. A yes vote would
:08:53. > :08:58.be about bringing decision-making powers home, but we are also setting
:08:59. > :09:03.out some of the things an SNP government would do, if elected. A
:09:04. > :09:05.decision on what the first government of an independent
:09:06. > :09:11.Scotland would be would not be taken in the referendum, that decision
:09:12. > :09:14.would be taken in the 2016 election. And all of the parties will put
:09:15. > :09:19.forward their offers to the electorate. We are setting out some
:09:20. > :09:23.of the things which we think it is important to be prioritised. These
:09:24. > :09:28.are things which have a lot of support in Scotland. We see the pain
:09:29. > :09:32.being felt by people because of the rising cost of energy bills, there
:09:33. > :09:36.is widespread opposition to some of the welfare cuts. So, we are setting
:09:37. > :09:39.out the options which are open to Scotland, but only open to Scotland
:09:40. > :09:47.if we have the powers of independence. Given that you seem to
:09:48. > :09:50.be promising aid permanent socialist near Varna, if Scotland is
:09:51. > :09:54.independent, if you are right of centre in Scotland, and I understand
:09:55. > :09:58.that is a minority pursuit where you are, but it would be a big mistake
:09:59. > :10:04.to vote for independence, in that case, wouldn't it? No, because the
:10:05. > :10:10.whole point of independence is that people get the country they want,
:10:11. > :10:14.and the government a vote for. So, right of centre people should not
:10:15. > :10:17.vote for independence? No, because people who are of that political
:10:18. > :10:21.persuasion in Scotland get the opportunity to vote for parties
:10:22. > :10:25.which represent that persuasion, and if they can persuade a majority to
:10:26. > :10:30.vote likewise, then they will get a government which reflects that. That
:10:31. > :10:34.is the essence of independence. Right now, we have a Westminster
:10:35. > :10:36.government which most people in Scotland rejected at the last
:10:37. > :10:41.general election. That is hardly democratic. It is right and proper
:10:42. > :10:45.that the SNP, as the current government, points out the
:10:46. > :11:00.opportunities that would be opening up. Can I just clarify one thing,
:11:01. > :11:08.when we spoke on The Daily Politics earlier last week, you made it clear
:11:09. > :11:11.to me that Alex Salmond, we know he wants to debate with David Cameron,
:11:12. > :11:21.but you made it clear to me that he would debate with Alistair Darling
:11:22. > :11:25.as well, and Mr Carmichael... He made it clear yesterday. Well, he
:11:26. > :11:28.said to the BBC this morning that he would only debate with these people
:11:29. > :11:33.after he had had a debate with Mr Cameron, so who is right? I was
:11:34. > :11:37.making the point last week, and Alex Salmond was making it yesterday and
:11:38. > :11:42.this morning - let's have that agreement by David Cameron to come
:11:43. > :11:48.and debate with Alex Salmond, and then Alex Salmond, just like me,
:11:49. > :11:52.will debate with allcomers. So if he does not get the David Cameron
:11:53. > :11:57.debate, then he will not do the others, is that right? Let's focus
:11:58. > :12:05.on is wading David Cameron to do the right thing. So, in other words, he
:12:06. > :12:10.will not debate, yes or no? Members of the SNP government... We know
:12:11. > :12:16.that, but what about Alex Salmond? He said yesterday, we will debate
:12:17. > :12:19.with all sorts of people, including the people you have spoken about,
:12:20. > :12:38.but David Cameron should not be let off the hook just putting aside the
:12:39. > :12:44.independence issue, energy prices are now even playing into the SNP,
:12:45. > :12:50.so every political party has to do something about energy prices. Yes,
:12:51. > :12:53.it is clearly it is interesting is the difference between the SNP and
:12:54. > :12:58.the Labour approach. Ed Miliband electrified the party conference
:12:59. > :13:02.season when he said he would freeze energy prices for 20 months,
:13:03. > :13:07.seemingly having an amazing control over the energy market, where we
:13:08. > :13:10.know that essentially what pushes prices up the wholesale prices on
:13:11. > :13:15.world market. What Nicola Sturgeon is talking about is actually saying,
:13:16. > :13:19.this amount is added to your bills for green levies, and we are going
:13:20. > :13:24.to take them off your bills and they will be paid out of general taxation
:13:25. > :13:28.in an independent Scotland. That is a credible government, making a
:13:29. > :13:32.credible case, very different to what Labour is saying, although
:13:33. > :13:36.playing to the same agenda. So, Labour has got a populist policy,
:13:37. > :13:41.the SNP has also got a populist policy, the one group of people that
:13:42. > :13:50.do not have a decent response to this is the coalition? Exactly. What
:13:51. > :13:55.the SNP also have is a magic money pot, so that speech yesterday, you
:13:56. > :14:00.are right, it was very left wing, social democratic, but there was
:14:01. > :14:03.none of the icing like Labour has been talking about, with fiscal
:14:04. > :14:08.responsibility. I think that is the difference between the two. We know
:14:09. > :14:11.what the Tories would really like to do, all of these green levies which
:14:12. > :14:16.were put on our bills in the good times, when they were going to be
:14:17. > :14:22.the greenest party ever, the Tories would like to say, let's just wipe
:14:23. > :14:28.out some of them, put the rest on to some general government spending,
:14:29. > :14:34.but they have a problem, which is in the Department of Energy and Climate
:14:35. > :14:40.Change. Not only that, they really are stuck now. But there is
:14:41. > :14:45.something in the free schools debate this morning, the parties are now
:14:46. > :14:50.determined to send a message to their potential voters at the next
:14:51. > :14:54.election, that they are trying to fight their coalition partners. Do
:14:55. > :14:57.not expected any change in coalition policy or free schools policy before
:14:58. > :15:01.the election, but we can expect to hear the parties try to pretend that
:15:02. > :15:06.they are taking on their coalition partners. Mr Clegg has said, we
:15:07. > :15:10.would put this free schools policy into our manifesto, so is it not
:15:11. > :15:14.possible that the Tories will say, if you give us an overall majority,
:15:15. > :15:18.we will cut your electricity bill because we will get rid of these
:15:19. > :15:22.green levies? I think that is entirely possible. The Tories know
:15:23. > :15:28.that they are stuck on this, they do not have a response to Ed Miliband.
:15:29. > :15:33.How much should ministers in Whitehall medal in local decisions
:15:34. > :15:36.across England? In opposition, David Cameron said he wanted a fundamental
:15:37. > :15:40.shift of power from Whitehall to local people. He said, when one size
:15:41. > :16:01.fits all solution is... Eric Pickles described it as "an
:16:02. > :16:06.historic shift of power". But the Communitites and Local Government
:16:07. > :16:10.Secretary can't stop meddling. In the past few months Mr Pickles has
:16:11. > :16:14.tried to ban councils from using CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine
:16:15. > :16:18.motorists... Told councils how to act quicker to shut down illegal
:16:19. > :16:23.travellers' sites... Criticised councils who want to raise council
:16:24. > :16:29.tax... Insisted councils release land to residents hoping to build
:16:30. > :16:33.their own property... And stated new homes should have a special built in
:16:34. > :16:36.bin storage section. It seems not a week goes by without a policy
:16:37. > :16:40.announcement from the hyper active Mr Pickles. So is the government
:16:41. > :16:45.still committed to localism, or is it all about centralism now?
:16:46. > :16:54.And Communities Secretary Eric Pickles joins me now for the Sunday
:16:55. > :17:03.Interview. Welcome. Nice to be here. You said
:17:04. > :17:13.in July you were going to give town halls the power to wreak their local
:17:14. > :17:18.magic. So why issue diktats from Westminster? It is not about giving
:17:19. > :17:27.power to local councils, it is going beyond that to local people. If
:17:28. > :17:32.local councils refuse to open up their books, we have to go straight
:17:33. > :17:38.to local people. You have attacked councillors using so-called spy
:17:39. > :17:43.cameras to enforce parking rules. Why is that your business? Because
:17:44. > :17:49.there is an injustice taking place. You cannot use fines to raise money
:17:50. > :17:58.and that is plainly happening. If you get yourself a ticket from a
:17:59. > :18:02.CCTV, it could be days or weeks before that lands on your doorstep
:18:03. > :18:07.and you have virtually no possibility to be able to defend
:18:08. > :18:12.yourself. But just leave it to people to vote out the council then.
:18:13. > :18:18.We are trying to enforce the law and it clearly states that you cannot
:18:19. > :18:24.use parking fines in order to fund general rate. So why are you not
:18:25. > :18:29.taking them to court if they are breaking the law? There have been a
:18:30. > :18:38.number of court cases taken by local residents. I am there to stand by
:18:39. > :18:44.local residents. Your even trying to micromanage, allowing motorist 's to
:18:45. > :18:50.park for 15 minutes in local high street. Why is that your business?
:18:51. > :18:54.I'm trying to ensure that local authorities understand the
:18:55. > :19:02.importance of the town centre. If you look at all opinion polls, right
:19:03. > :19:06.now there is a five-minute leeway but there are many cases of people
:19:07. > :19:13.being jumped on by parking officials for quite trivial things. It is
:19:14. > :19:18.about saying, surely I can go and get a pint of milk. But a party that
:19:19. > :19:24.dines out on localism, that is a matter for local people, not the men
:19:25. > :19:30.in Whitehall. I have to be on the side of local people. That person
:19:31. > :19:36.who wants to go and get a pint of milk. Ultimately it is a matter for
:19:37. > :19:41.them. It is a matter for the council. But a little bit of
:19:42. > :19:46.criticism is not a bad thing. You have now declared war on the wheelie
:19:47. > :19:51.bin and suggested that new homes should have built in storage
:19:52. > :20:04.sections. You just cannot help meddling! I suppose that is
:20:05. > :20:11.possible. You are a meddler! I am in charge of building regulations and
:20:12. > :20:18.planning. So I may have some responsibility there. Another one,
:20:19. > :20:28.interfering in local planning decisions. A couple of places, you
:20:29. > :20:33.ruled in favour of developers. They want to build over 200 houses
:20:34. > :20:41.against the wishes of the parish and district councils. The local MP said
:20:42. > :20:49.the Secretary of State's decision runs roughshod over any concept of
:20:50. > :20:52.localism. Now I have to be a blushing violet because of course
:20:53. > :21:07.this is still potentially subject to judicial review. I have to act
:21:08. > :21:15.properly. And Apple went is entitled to justice. -- an applicant. A local
:21:16. > :21:20.authority has a duty to ensure that is adequate housing for people in
:21:21. > :21:26.their area. This was not a decision that I took as a personal decision,
:21:27. > :21:33.it was on the advice of an inspector. But you contradict what
:21:34. > :21:37.David Cameron himself said in 2012, he spoke about a vision where we
:21:38. > :21:44.give communities much more say and local control. People in villages
:21:45. > :21:53.fear big housing estates being plonked from above. You have just
:21:54. > :22:01.done exactly that. After a proper quasi judicial enquiry. What we have
:22:02. > :22:09.is planning framework which local people can decide where it goes. But
:22:10. > :22:14.they cannot say, nothing here. They have to have a five-year housing
:22:15. > :22:18.supply. Previous to this government decided exactly where houses would
:22:19. > :22:26.go, now local people can take the lead. Anna Silbury said because of
:22:27. > :22:31.the way your department rules, local authorities now have no alternative
:22:32. > :22:40.but to agree development on green belt land. I do not accept that. I
:22:41. > :22:48.think around Nottingham there are particular problems with regards to
:22:49. > :22:59.the green belt. The matter has been referred back.
:23:00. > :23:00.the green belt. The matter has been want to see development on the green
:23:01. > :23:06.belt but on Brownfield site. We want to see underused land. But you have
:23:07. > :23:13.to remember why we have the green belt. Not
:23:14. > :23:13.to remember why we have the green nice, it is their to prevent
:23:14. > :23:18.conurbations bumping into one another. Your
:23:19. > :23:23.conurbations bumping into one is vocal about the need to deal
:23:24. > :23:24.what he calls the historic under provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:25. > :23:36.we need 250,000 new homes per year. provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:37. > :23:36.Houston statistics are getting there, but nowhere near that. --
:23:37. > :23:39.housing. You cannot there, but nowhere near that. --
:23:40. > :23:49.localism agenda as well as meeting housing demand. I do not accept
:23:50. > :23:57.that. We inherited a position where the lowest level of building since
:23:58. > :24:04.the 1920s was in place. But it has steadily improved. It does take a
:24:05. > :24:07.while. You cannot have a localism agenda where people call the shots
:24:08. > :24:13.on housing as well as meeting the housing demand. People have a duty
:24:14. > :24:19.to ensure that future generations have somewhere to live. You cannot
:24:20. > :24:26.pull up the drawbridge. There is nothing incompatible between that
:24:27. > :24:31.and localism. Because someone has to be the voice of those people who are
:24:32. > :24:38.going to live there and to make sure there is the proper amount. Plans
:24:39. > :24:44.now exist for more than 150,000 homes to be built on protected land,
:24:45. > :24:48.including the green belt. That will mean riding over local concerns.
:24:49. > :24:52.Each application will be taken on its own merits. To suggest that
:24:53. > :24:58.there is an assault on the green belt is as far from the truth as you
:24:59. > :25:02.can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell get his job back if the years
:25:03. > :25:07.exonerated? I would be honoured to sit with Andrew Mitchell in the
:25:08. > :25:14.Cabinet. I have always believed his version. But it is a matter for the
:25:15. > :25:15.Prime Minister who he has in government. He would have no problem
:25:16. > :25:23.in seeing him back in Cabinet? government. He would have no problem
:25:24. > :25:28.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:29. > :25:34.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:35. > :25:37.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:38. > :25:45.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:46. > :25:50.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:51. > :25:56.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:57. > :26:03.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:04. > :26:08.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:09. > :26:16.has to flow without restriction. That is what I said at the time. We
:26:17. > :26:22.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:23. > :26:34.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:35. > :26:43.we have. I could not be happier! Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:44. > :26:57.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:58. > :27:02.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:03. > :27:09.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:10. > :27:14.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:15. > :27:22.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:23. > :27:29.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:30. > :27:38.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:39. > :27:40.On Wednesday senior police folk, including chief constables, will be
:27:41. > :27:45.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:46. > :27:48.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:49. > :27:50.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:51. > :27:52.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:53. > :27:57.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:58. > :28:05.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:06. > :28:10.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:11. > :28:13.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:14. > :28:20.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:21. > :28:24.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament.
:28:25. > :28:28.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:29. > :28:33.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:34. > :28:38.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:39. > :28:45.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:46. > :28:52.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:53. > :28:56.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:57. > :29:03.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:04. > :29:06.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:07. > :29:12.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:13. > :29:15.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:16. > :29:21.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:22. > :29:25.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:26. > :29:31.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:32. > :29:35.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:36. > :29:39.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:40. > :29:42.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:43. > :29:48.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:49. > :29:51.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:52. > :29:57.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:58. > :30:01.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:02. > :30:06.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:07. > :30:11.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:12. > :30:14.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:15. > :30:20.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:21. > :30:25.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:26. > :30:29.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:30. > :30:32.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 60% of
:30:33. > :30:39.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:40. > :30:49.pollsters started measuring it 30 years ago.
:30:50. > :30:54.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:55. > :30:59.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:31:00. > :31:04.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:05. > :31:11.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:12. > :31:15.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:16. > :31:18.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:19. > :31:24.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:25. > :31:31.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:32. > :31:37.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:38. > :31:43.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:44. > :31:49.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:50. > :31:54.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:55. > :31:58.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:31:59. > :32:03.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:04. > :32:06.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:07. > :32:15.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:16. > :32:19.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:20. > :32:21.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:22. > :32:32.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:33. > :32:36.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:37. > :32:41.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:42. > :32:46.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:47. > :32:52.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces,
:32:53. > :33:00.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:01. > :33:04.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:05. > :33:08.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:09. > :33:16.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:17. > :33:20.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:21. > :33:27.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:28. > :33:32.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:33. > :33:35.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:36. > :33:39.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:40. > :33:44.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:45. > :33:49.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:50. > :33:52.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:53. > :33:57.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:33:58. > :34:01.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:02. > :34:04.different bits of that incident. There is the officers on duty in
:34:05. > :34:09.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:10. > :34:13.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:14. > :34:16.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:17. > :34:24.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:25. > :34:27.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:28. > :34:33.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:34. > :34:36.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:37. > :34:40.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:41. > :34:44.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us, the
:34:45. > :34:47.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:48. > :34:51.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:52. > :35:01.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:02. > :35:06.if there is a crisis of trust... But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:07. > :35:12.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:13. > :35:16.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:17. > :35:21.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:22. > :35:24.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:25. > :35:31.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:32. > :35:37.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn't.
:35:38. > :35:43.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:44. > :35:47.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:48. > :35:53.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:54. > :35:57.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:58. > :36:03.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:04. > :36:08.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:09. > :36:12.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:13. > :36:55.apples? This bad apples argument, we people worry that if you can set up
:36:56. > :37:02.a Cabinet minister then you can set up anyone. I disagree. We are yet to
:37:03. > :37:09.year what has happened at the gates of Downing Street. What we know
:37:10. > :37:15.about the gates of Downing Street is that we were told by the police
:37:16. > :37:20.officers that passers-by had her this incredible row where
:37:21. > :37:26.Mitchell's file rant was appalling. We now know that is not true. We
:37:27. > :37:34.don't know that there was no one around. But it is clear that the
:37:35. > :37:43.Police Federation and elements within that jumped on this as a
:37:44. > :37:46.politically motivated campaign. I have always said that politics
:37:47. > :37:54.should be kept out of policing. I think this was just too overly
:37:55. > :38:07.political. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police Rune Master
:38:08. > :38:20.we need a more competent tarmac every police officer... Your Mac
:38:21. > :38:28.that is the police force your God. This It's approaching 11:40am.
:38:29. > :38:32.You're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday
:38:33. > :38:34.Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: I'll be live in
:38:35. > :38:37.Grangemouth ahead of a planned demonstration - as the conflict
:38:38. > :38:40.continues between the employees and the management at the plant.
:38:41. > :38:43.Fresh from his leadership address to the SNP party conference, the First
:38:44. > :38:45.Minister Alex Salmond joins us live from Perth.
:38:46. > :38:48.And Andrew Carnegie, Robert the Bruce, Barbara Dickson and
:38:49. > :38:52.by-election upsets. That's what Dunfermline's famous for. So who
:38:53. > :39:02.will be crowned victorious on Thursday?
:39:03. > :39:05.A demonstration organised by the Unite union is due to get underway
:39:06. > :39:09.at Grangemouth this lunchtime. It's been a tit-for-tat affair this week.
:39:10. > :39:12.There had been a strike planned - it was called off. But the plant's
:39:13. > :39:15.operators Ineos said for safety reasons they had to close the
:39:16. > :39:19.operation down just in case. Talks have been held but there's no sign
:39:20. > :39:22.of a breakthrough in what has become a particularly bitter dispute. The
:39:23. > :39:26.next deadline is tomorrow night when staff are due to return letters the
:39:27. > :39:28.company has sent asking them to agree to new pay and pension
:39:29. > :39:32.conditions. The company's owners are due to discuss the outcome on
:39:33. > :39:40.Tuesday. Andrew Anderson is there for us now. Is what is the purpose
:39:41. > :39:44.of this demonstration? You described it as a bitter dispute. It is one of
:39:45. > :39:49.the biggest and most veteran disputes, I would suggest, in
:39:50. > :39:56.Scotland for the last 20 years. As you can see, workers are gathering
:39:57. > :40:02.the year for a rally due to start at 12 o'clock. As they see it, they are
:40:03. > :40:06.fighting for their livelihoods and the life of this plant. It is one of
:40:07. > :40:15.the biggest of its type in Europe and it has been in Grangemouth and
:40:16. > :40:19.grown over the past 90 years. It produces about 80% of the petrol
:40:20. > :40:26.that we buy in Scotland and about 10% of the oil that comes in from
:40:27. > :40:30.the North Sea. Management say it is losing ?10 million per month and
:40:31. > :40:35.they want workers to sign up to new pay and conditions. Those include an
:40:36. > :40:44.end to the final salary pension scheme, a freeze on conditions and
:40:45. > :40:48.shifting alliances. Unite have taken out full-page adverts in which they
:40:49. > :40:54.make a series of accusations against Ineos. They say they are holding the
:40:55. > :41:01.workers and Scotland to ransom. The stakes are very high. It is a bitter
:41:02. > :41:09.dispute and one that has political ramifications as well. It started
:41:10. > :41:13.over a dispute over a union official and now has become wider. How
:41:14. > :41:19.crucial will this week be for the plant? This is perhaps the most
:41:20. > :41:26.crucial week in the plant's 90 year history. The company had given the
:41:27. > :41:31.workers a deadline to sign up to this new pay and conditions package.
:41:32. > :41:36.They have bypassed the union and gone straight to the workforce and
:41:37. > :41:41.delivered papers to their homes at end of last week. They have been
:41:42. > :41:43.given until 6pm tomorrow to indicate whether they are willing to sign
:41:44. > :42:20.up. If they are not, he is saying that if they don't, the
:42:21. > :42:26.prospects for this plant are bleak and Ineos has already suggested it
:42:27. > :42:30.could close by 2017. If workers sign up, they are promising millions of
:42:31. > :42:38.pounds of investment to guarantee the long-term future.
:42:39. > :42:40.There was a rousing reception for Alex Salmond yesterday as he
:42:41. > :42:43.addressed the SNP faithful in Perth - their last full gathering before
:42:44. > :42:46.next year's independence referendum. The First Minister told delegates
:42:47. > :42:49.they were the independence generation and that a yes vote next
:42:50. > :42:52.year would be, for Scotland, "an act of national self-confidence and
:42:53. > :42:54.self-belief". He also confirmed we'll get the Scottish Government's
:42:55. > :42:58.prospectus for independence in their white paper on the 26th of November.
:42:59. > :43:01.Confidence is clearly high, yet polls seem to suggest that a
:43:02. > :43:04.majority of the public isn't yet caught up on that wave of
:43:05. > :43:08.enthusiasm. So what does Mr Salmond have to do to make his dreams a
:43:09. > :43:19.reality? From Perth, David Porter reports.
:43:20. > :43:27.It is a pretty apt question and one that is increasingly focusing minds.
:43:28. > :43:31.Where is the ship going to sail to? It will be more than a decade before
:43:32. > :43:38.these children can vote at next year their parents well. Alex Salmond
:43:39. > :43:44.relishes the role of captain. He likes to lead from the front. As the
:43:45. > :43:53.good ship independence sets sail, is Scotland bound for a new course or
:43:54. > :44:04.will the SNP's hopes founder. As he consults his political charts, a key
:44:05. > :44:07.theme is a major sing -- emerging. The key thing is who can be trusted
:44:08. > :44:15.to make the best decisions for Scotland? Our own Parliament or a
:44:16. > :44:21.Westminster system which barely represents the votes or values of
:44:22. > :44:25.the Scottish people? But he knows nothing in politics goes entirely to
:44:26. > :44:32.plan. The opinion polls are yet to move his way. Those close to him say
:44:33. > :44:36.he will leave nothing to chance. Here's a campaigner but a man with a
:44:37. > :44:46.clear vision of what Scotland should have. Yet to the opinion polls are
:44:47. > :44:51.still resolutely unfavourable. What the opinion polls tell you is about
:44:52. > :44:59.people whose default position is now. They just need to be persuaded.
:45:00. > :45:05.But there are a big group who wants to be persuaded. The job of the yes
:45:06. > :45:15.campaign is to persuade them over the next months. I think that is
:45:16. > :45:25.perfectly possible. He, too, will be the town that is set. Tone is very
:45:26. > :45:30.important. As we move towards the vote and the publication of the
:45:31. > :45:36.white paper, as people begin to engage in the arguments, what will
:45:37. > :45:44.independence look like? It is important for the yes campaign to
:45:45. > :45:51.focus on the positives. Be under no illusion, if we don't vote yes,
:45:52. > :45:55.Westminster will turn of the screw. Despite ramping up the rhetoric,
:45:56. > :46:03.senior figures insist they will remain positive. We are all Scots
:46:04. > :46:09.and people who live in Scotland. Everyone has a right to different
:46:10. > :46:14.views. So long as we remember that we are involved in a historic and
:46:15. > :46:23.exciting debate, I am sure we will have a yes vote and come out a bit
:46:24. > :46:25.stronger and more respectful. As a student of political history, Alex
:46:26. > :46:31.Salmond is aware of the importance of events. Developments at
:46:32. > :46:39.Grangemouth are just one example of how the agenda can change at a
:46:40. > :46:46.moment 's notice. It is a very difficult trick he has got to do. He
:46:47. > :46:50.has to persuade people of his vision but also reach people who are not
:46:51. > :46:57.associated with the yes campaign or the SNP. He must reach into the
:46:58. > :47:00.middle ground of politics and persuade people that it is a safe
:47:01. > :47:07.thing to do to go for a better future. But he must do that in a way
:47:08. > :47:16.that makes it not appear obsessed with the SNP or yes. Those on board
:47:17. > :47:21.now it won't be plain sailing. They insist the referendum can be won.
:47:22. > :47:25.Well, the First Minister Alex Salmond joins me now from the last
:47:26. > :47:35.day of the SNP conference. Good afternoon. Let's start with the
:47:36. > :47:44.situation in Grangemouth. Is Ineos holding the country to ransom?
:47:45. > :47:52.Sorry, I don't have a monitor here. On Grangemouth, I will concentrate
:47:53. > :48:01.absolutely on saying on tarmac her I believe we can get out of the
:48:02. > :48:09.impasse. This is what I think should happen. I think Unite should give a
:48:10. > :48:15.no strike without strings guarantee. Once that is done, Ineos should fire
:48:16. > :48:21.up the plant. Then consultations should take place against the
:48:22. > :48:29.background of a working plant, not a plant that is lying cold. Both union
:48:30. > :48:35.and management say they see a great future for the complex F investment
:48:36. > :48:41.comes in. If they both support that investment and build on these
:48:42. > :48:48.aspects of common ground and get the plant working again, then the other
:48:49. > :48:54.consultations can take place on a much better atmosphere than at
:48:55. > :48:59.present. Workers are told they have to make a decision by tomorrow.
:49:00. > :49:11.Would you ask the company to polls on that? This is so important. The
:49:12. > :49:18.key aspect that I can see is that if we have all of this taking place,
:49:19. > :49:24.the exchange of press releases and tweeting and arguments back and
:49:25. > :49:27.forward against an idle plant, that is the underlying difficulty for the
:49:28. > :49:34.company and for the workforce and for Scotland. Let's get the plant up
:49:35. > :49:38.and running so that everyone has a vested interest in coming to terms
:49:39. > :49:42.in a plant that is working as opposed to the present situation,
:49:43. > :49:49.which is wholly dangerous for the workforce and the Scottish economy.
:49:50. > :49:52.I grew up in Linlithgow. The fires burning in Grangemouth have been
:49:53. > :50:06.part of my life as long as I have been alive. These fires are no alt
:50:07. > :50:12.-- now out. In terms of the long-term future of the plant, when
:50:13. > :50:19.you have talked to Ineos, have you discussed nationalisation? I have
:50:20. > :50:24.discussed investment in the plant and what the Scottish Government
:50:25. > :50:33.could do to support it. There are also discussions with the government
:50:34. > :50:42.and the green investment bank. Is nationalisation and option? When I
:50:43. > :50:46.talked to Unite I asked them if they wanted the Scottish Government to be
:50:47. > :50:54.discussing it investment plan. They said yes. I am concentrating on
:50:55. > :51:01.getting the plant up and running and an investment to secure the plant's
:51:02. > :51:05.long-term future. The union and the company agree that Grangemouth has
:51:06. > :51:10.an exciting long-term future. Let's try to bring the parties together,
:51:11. > :51:17.get the plant up and running and look about that investment to secure
:51:18. > :51:22.its long-term future. You said yesterday that
:51:23. > :51:28.renationalisation of the Royal Mail is a priority for you and you have
:51:29. > :51:30.nationalised Prestwick Airport. Have you had any conversations about
:51:31. > :51:38.nationalising Grangemouth? If this was just a political interview and
:51:39. > :51:42.people's lives were at stake with one of our major industrial plants
:51:43. > :51:46.idle and cold at the moment, I would go into a whole range of politics,
:51:47. > :51:53.but I am trying to concentrate on what I believe will help, finding
:51:54. > :51:56.common ground. For example, I have seen the agreement that was almost
:51:57. > :52:01.made at ACAS in the early hours of last Wednesday morning. That
:52:02. > :52:06.agreement was within touching distance of being made. Despite
:52:07. > :52:10.everything that has been set on either side, I don't think we were
:52:11. > :52:13.very far from making an agreement last Wednesday morning, and
:52:14. > :52:17.therefore trying to get back into the situation where the plant is up
:52:18. > :52:21.and running and people can have these discussions in a more
:52:22. > :52:26.constructive and productive atmosphere seems to be a priority
:52:27. > :52:28.for the Scottish First Minister and the Scottish government at the
:52:29. > :52:32.present moment. I will not be deflected on that and I will not
:52:33. > :52:35.enter into aspects which would be controversial on either side. I am
:52:36. > :52:40.trying to build on the common ground for the sake of the plant and the
:52:41. > :52:43.workforce and for the sake of the Scottish economy. Let the Askew a
:52:44. > :52:51.bit about what you said in your speech yesterday -- let me ask you.
:52:52. > :52:56.How much detail will the White Paper gives on taxation, for instance? You
:52:57. > :53:01.support the aims of the Scottish Common Weal movement, the idea of
:53:02. > :53:06.following a Scandinavian or Nordic model on economic policies. Will we
:53:07. > :53:10.get greater levels of taxation in an independent Scotland, in the White
:53:11. > :53:16.Paper? The White Paper will lay out the basis of the independence
:53:17. > :53:20.settlement. That means what we'll take Scotland to between a yes vote
:53:21. > :53:23.in the referendum next year and the spring of 2016. This is
:53:24. > :53:27.fundamentally not about the policies of the SNP all of the Scottish First
:53:28. > :53:31.Minister, but about the democratic right of people in Scotland to
:53:32. > :53:36.choose a government of their own. The second point of the White Paper
:53:37. > :53:40.will lay out the vision of the SNP. That means, what we would do if we
:53:41. > :53:46.were chosen to be that government. As part of that, but we get taxation
:53:47. > :53:50.levels? As far as the aims of the Scottish Common Weal are concerned,
:53:51. > :53:56.it is to look and consider some of the item is being put forward as is
:53:57. > :53:58.right and proper, because they are interesting and substantial
:53:59. > :54:03.arguments. In terms of SNP policy, I don't think you have been short of
:54:04. > :54:08.SNP policies over the last few days, for example, Nicola Sturgeon's
:54:09. > :54:15.attack on food bills in Scotland, to take the necessary spending as far
:54:16. > :54:22.as energy efficiency is concerned. My clarion call yesterday to set a
:54:23. > :54:30.minimum wage at ?6 31 -- ?6.31 per hour... First minute, that is my
:54:31. > :54:35.point. You have given us a lot of spending commitments for an
:54:36. > :54:39.independent Scotland. People may well ask, how do we pay for that?
:54:40. > :54:44.Don't people deserve to know the answer to that question as part of
:54:45. > :54:48.the SNP's policies ahead of the referendum? The White Paper will not
:54:49. > :54:52.lack detail on the SNP's vision for an independent Scotland and this
:54:53. > :54:58.conference has not lacked detail on policies. The ask about
:54:59. > :55:03.affordability. May I remind you that in 2011-2012, the last year for
:55:04. > :55:11.which we have figures, there was a relatively better physical situation
:55:12. > :55:22.in Scotland comparatively to the UK -- fiscal situation. If you took it
:55:23. > :55:25.over five years, the average has been over ?2 billion better for
:55:26. > :55:29.Scotland than for the UK. Let's start from the acceptance that
:55:30. > :55:33.Scotland is in a stronger relative fiscal position than the UK as a
:55:34. > :55:38.whole, and it will be a -- a good basis from which to chart the
:55:39. > :55:42.policies for an independent Scotland. The key thing is how the
:55:43. > :55:45.policies must make the country more prosperous and just, and that is
:55:46. > :55:50.what the SNP have been outlining this week. Can I have some clarity
:55:51. > :55:54.on your earlier interview on the BBC this morning? You said that what you
:55:55. > :55:58.had disposed of the Prime Minister comedy would debate with all and
:55:59. > :56:02.sundry. Is that mean that if David Cameron continues with his position
:56:03. > :56:06.of saying no, that you are unlikely to debate with Alistair Carmichael,
:56:07. > :56:11.Darling and others? It was not meant to be a literal disposition! It was
:56:12. > :56:15.a figure of speech. I was saying that we should debate Prime Minister
:56:16. > :56:18.to First Minister first, and once we get that debate, and I think it must
:56:19. > :56:21.happen for reasons I outlined yesterday, on the basis that David
:56:22. > :56:26.Cameron is pulling the strings on this debate and therefore he has to
:56:27. > :56:32.take democratic accountability... If he continues to say no, what effect
:56:33. > :56:37.does that have? I intend, by one means or another, to tempt the Prime
:56:38. > :56:42.Minister into that television debate, because I think it is
:56:43. > :56:46.fundamental that it is Prime Minister to First Minister,
:56:47. > :56:49.different prospectors for the future of Scotland, it will then get into a
:56:50. > :56:58.debate of basically any other candidates that the no campaign care
:56:59. > :57:04.to field. But if he is tempted by your offer, will be other debates go
:57:05. > :57:08.ahead and molest? I think the task is to make sure that he cannot
:57:09. > :57:11.sustain that position. I did say there is an alternative, of course.
:57:12. > :57:16.I said he could either step up to the plate or get out of the debate.
:57:17. > :57:21.What he can't do is take the present position, which is that we have a
:57:22. > :57:29.fusillade of secretaries of State he wanted to take -- dictate the terms
:57:30. > :57:31.to Scotland but not subject themselves to democratic
:57:32. > :57:34.examination. It is a straight choice. Either step up to the plate
:57:35. > :57:37.as Prime Minister or agree to get out of the debate and that seems to
:57:38. > :57:42.be pretty fair. My preference, incidentally, would be to get him
:57:43. > :57:47.into a debate and let the? Prospectus for the future of this
:57:48. > :57:50.country be absolutely clear, First Minister of Scotland to Prime
:57:51. > :57:54.Minister of London. Thank you very much.
:57:55. > :57:57.The final few days of campaigning will take place in and around
:57:58. > :58:01.Dunfermline this heat ahead of Thursday's by-election. It was
:58:02. > :58:03.called after Bill Walker resigned following his conviction for
:58:04. > :58:11.domestic abuse. He was originally enacted as an SNP MSP in 2011 but
:58:12. > :58:14.latterly became an independent. Bread-and-butter issues have
:58:15. > :58:18.included schools services and hospital closures. It is a close
:58:19. > :58:23.thing between the SNP and the Labour Party as to -- as they take their
:58:24. > :58:29.campaigns to wet and windy doorsteps.
:58:30. > :58:33.The medieval central -- centre of Dunfermline, no stranger to
:58:34. > :58:36.political intrigue, once the seat of royal power. King Robert the Bruce
:58:37. > :58:42.is famous in the wider constituency. Who will emerge the
:58:43. > :58:46.glorious and he will be consigned to history? As the Lib Dems campaign in
:58:47. > :58:49.this by-election, they are encouraged by former glories. This
:58:50. > :58:56.place is known for its political upsets. Willie Rennie, the current
:58:57. > :58:59.leader, knocked at Labour in 2006. People are now coming back to was
:59:00. > :59:03.mainly because people remember the very hard-working team that they had
:59:04. > :59:09.here. Willie Rennie is a well cant face and name on the doorsteps you.
:59:10. > :59:25.People remember how hard he worked as an MSP. They want is that strong
:59:26. > :59:28.Lib Dem team back again. The Conservatives' James Beattie is a
:59:29. > :59:32.young entrepreneur with a cider making business. Pressing the
:59:33. > :59:41.economy forward as one of his aims. We want to make banks think about
:59:42. > :59:44.cheaper mortgages. That is a positive thing in an area like this
:59:45. > :59:49.where people aspire to buy their own home. We have seen an income tax for
:59:50. > :59:51.nearly 2.5 million people. David Cameron has announced a national
:59:52. > :59:56.insurance could for small businesses, which is great for group
:59:57. > :00:04.-- for Scottish businesses. And we want to cut income tax. West in
:00:05. > :00:07.Blair Hall, Labour's candidate is Kara Hilton. She has been criticised
:00:08. > :00:13.by the SNP in one of the key policy battle grounds. They claim she has
:00:14. > :00:19.distanced herself from the Labour school closure programme. That is
:00:20. > :00:23.critical -- hypocritical, she says. The reason for the by-election is
:00:24. > :00:27.also brought up. The only reason we are having this by-election in
:00:28. > :00:30.Dunfermline is because of Bill Walker and the fact that Alex
:00:31. > :00:35.Hammond and Nicola Sturgeon ignored all the warnings about this man.
:00:36. > :00:38.Dunfermline deserves better than a disgraced wife-beater as an MSP.
:00:39. > :00:45.This election gives us the opportunity to give Dunfermline and
:00:46. > :00:50.MSP to campaign on everyday issues that affect people here in our
:00:51. > :00:58.town. The SNP say they have apologised about Bill Walker and are
:00:59. > :01:03.focusing on other issues. Health is a key part of the SNP's campaign. We
:01:04. > :01:07.have put through a strong message that we are having a constructive
:01:08. > :01:10.dialogue with the chief executive. I'm pleased that I have already had
:01:11. > :01:15.a dialogue with him to work out a timetable for a diagnostic and
:01:16. > :01:22.treatment centre here at the Queen Margaret, including a midwife
:01:23. > :01:28.modernity led unit -- midwife led that -- maternity unit. Those are
:01:29. > :01:31.the challenges in this campaign and as the winner gets grim in
:01:32. > :01:35.Dunfermline, there are others hoping for a breakthrough. We are calling
:01:36. > :01:40.for there to be improved public transport serving the town on both
:01:41. > :01:44.in terms of regulation of buses and serving the Western villages as
:01:45. > :01:48.well, with people being forgotten about that. There are many people
:01:49. > :01:52.here who are open-minded and undecided and have not firmly come
:01:53. > :01:56.down on one side or the other, so they will listen and read my
:01:57. > :02:00.material. It is a hopeful sign. I will work with them to improve the
:02:01. > :02:03.state of concern them and Scotland. There should be a partnership
:02:04. > :02:07.between the government and the people. Back at the Abbey, the
:02:08. > :02:12.legend about Robert the Bruce and the spider's attempt to reach a Web
:02:13. > :02:18.is probably good advice for potential politicians. If at first
:02:19. > :02:23.you don't succeed, try again. We will have live overnight coverage
:02:24. > :02:26.of the counter this Thursday on BBC Two. I will speak to all of the
:02:27. > :02:31.candidates tomorrow night in a special Newsnight Scotland hustings
:02:32. > :02:35.programme, which starts at 10:30pm. For now, here is the Rune Master, as
:02:36. > :02:38.he was described in the Observer this morning, Professor John
:02:39. > :02:44.Curtice. What are the rooms are saying? The first thing to realise
:02:45. > :02:48.is this is a tough fight for the SNP. They only had a 2% lead over
:02:49. > :02:54.the Labour Party back in 2011 will stop in fact, even though they won
:02:55. > :02:58.the seat, this was the 13th lowest SNP share of the vote on the
:02:59. > :03:09.occasion that election. In truth, is a by-election, he constituency they
:03:10. > :03:15.won in 2011, between Labour and the Lib Dems. It is a tough fight. Is --
:03:16. > :03:30.governments usually don't do well in by-elections. The lowest swing was
:03:31. > :03:37.back in 2005 in Cathcart. Even that kind of swing, small blow out is --
:03:38. > :03:41.small though it is would be enough to unseat the SNP. Although they are
:03:42. > :03:47.still writing relatively high in the polls, they are not as high now as
:03:48. > :03:51.they were in 2011. It is difficult to see how the SNP are going to hang
:03:52. > :03:54.on, or to put it conversely, if they do manage to defend this
:03:55. > :03:58.by-election, I think they will be able to regard it as a stupendous
:03:59. > :04:04.achievement. What can a by-election which is about hospitals and schools
:04:05. > :04:09.and other issues, tell us about next year's independence referendum? In
:04:10. > :04:12.truth, not a great deal. This is a battle which primarily is being
:04:13. > :04:16.fought about local issues such as schools and hospitals and police
:04:17. > :04:19.stations in much the same way as the Aberdeen dons side by-election a
:04:20. > :04:24.couple of months ago was primarily about a particular roundabout and
:04:25. > :04:28.the state of Aberdeen's roads. There is a body of people out there who
:04:29. > :04:30.think the SNP are indeed doing a good job of running Scotland's
:04:31. > :04:34.government, he might still be willing to vote for them in a
:04:35. > :04:40.Scottish Parliament election, but may well not as yet be willing to
:04:41. > :04:42.vote yes in a referendum. Equally, people will often just use a
:04:43. > :04:48.by-election to say, hang on, not quite so happy with things and I am
:04:49. > :04:52.going to issue a word of caution to the incumbent government. Either
:04:53. > :04:56.way, these are not considerations that are relevant to the referendum.
:04:57. > :05:06.I don't think, unless we see something remarkably spectacular
:05:07. > :05:11.decline in the SNP vote, I think, in truth, we will probably say this is
:05:12. > :05:13.too much what you would expect for a government in mid-term and the
:05:14. > :05:17.political caravan will move on. Thank you very much.
:05:18. > :05:22.You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC. Still to
:05:23. > :05:26.come, a look at the week ahead with the Guardian's Scotland
:05:27. > :05:29.correspondent Severin Carrell, and former SNP MSP and historian
:05:30. > :05:37.Christopher Harvie. First, the latest news from Reporting Scotland.
:05:38. > :05:40.Good afternoon. The First Minister has called for both sides in the
:05:41. > :05:46.Grangemouth dispute to meet on common ground so the plant can be
:05:47. > :05:50."fired up again". This is the scene at the plant as a
:05:51. > :05:53.workers' rally gets underway. Ineos management has asked the Unite union
:05:54. > :05:57.not to call further industrial action this year. Unite said it
:05:58. > :06:00.would agree, but only if there were no cuts. Speaking on the programme,
:06:01. > :06:07.Mr Salmond said it was critical for Scotland that Grangemouth goes back
:06:08. > :06:16.on-line. This is what I think should happen. I think Unite should give a
:06:17. > :06:22.no strings, no strike guarantee. Then, Ineos should fire up the plant
:06:23. > :06:26.will stop and then consultations on terms and conditions should take
:06:27. > :06:30.place against the background of a working plant.
:06:31. > :06:33.The SNP conference in Perth will end this afternoon with a rally for
:06:34. > :06:36.independence. Our political editor Brian Taylor is at the city's
:06:37. > :06:39.Conference Hall. The conference will close this
:06:40. > :06:45.afternoon with a rally for independence. Although the entire
:06:46. > :06:50.event has been just that. There has been substance. The Justice
:06:51. > :06:56.Secretary stressed his determination to press ahead with reforms and
:06:57. > :07:00.mandatory demand for corroboration in the Scottish courts system. He
:07:01. > :07:07.says one in ten domestic abuse cases. The prosecuted because of it.
:07:08. > :07:11.Extra money was announced for college bursaries and student
:07:12. > :07:13.loans. An eight-year-old girl is being
:07:14. > :07:16.treated for serious facial injuries after being mauled by two American
:07:17. > :07:20.bulldogs in Glasgow. The incident happened in the Garthamlock area of
:07:21. > :07:24.the city on Friday evening. Police say the dogs have been seized and a
:07:25. > :07:25.man and a woman in their 30s have been charged under the Dangerous
:07:26. > :07:40.Dogs Act. Now, the weather. More sunshine today than recently.
:07:41. > :07:52.We still have persistent rain and strong winds overshadowed. -- over
:07:53. > :08:00.Shetland. There will be rain and possibly some hail.
:08:01. > :08:06.Now, in a moment, we'll be discussing the big events coming up
:08:07. > :08:14.this week, but first let's take a look back at the week in 60 seconds.
:08:15. > :08:27.A company pled guilty to health and safety failures after a double sank
:08:28. > :08:30.on the Clyde. Scottish gas customers face bigger bills than the rest of
:08:31. > :08:37.the UK after a decision by the owners to increase prices. Shares in
:08:38. > :08:44.Royal Mail went up in price on the company's first day of full
:08:45. > :08:48.trading. The government claims they are under price. Andy Murray
:08:49. > :08:56.received his OBE from Buckingham Palace. He said he was almost late
:08:57. > :09:00.due to a random drug test. I was just getting ready and they turned
:09:01. > :09:07.up. I was worried I would be late but to the taxi driver did a good
:09:08. > :09:19.job. Edinburgh zoo have confirmed they are no longer expecting a hand
:09:20. > :09:27.at birth. -- Panda. Now, the week ahead.
:09:28. > :09:30.And I'm joined this week by the historian, author and former SNP MSP
:09:31. > :09:34.Christopher Harvie. And from Perth - where he's been at the SNP
:09:35. > :09:37.conference for the last few days - the Scotland correspondent for the
:09:38. > :09:50.Guardian Severin Carrell. Let's start with the situation at
:09:51. > :09:58.Grangemouth. The headline is 24 hours to save Grangemouth. I think
:09:59. > :10:06.it is important and the policies we bring to their net are ones we have
:10:07. > :10:10.to think of very carefully. It may not be just a case of
:10:11. > :10:24.nationalisation. The Scottish Government should be prepared to go
:10:25. > :10:32.to accompany like Statoil. Rather than activities in the early 2000s
:10:33. > :10:42.which of land that is -- landed us with these companies. Alex Salmond
:10:43. > :10:49.is urging both sides to get back around the table. People are
:10:50. > :10:56.worried. It is a high-stakes game. The problem for the Scottish
:10:57. > :11:01.Government is that they are dealing with a company which behaves in a
:11:02. > :11:07.very, without being pejorative, aggressive way. It is very tough to
:11:08. > :11:12.deal with and it is certain about its capacity to pull the plug.
:11:13. > :11:18.Normally, the First Minister is in a position to help reconciliation.
:11:19. > :11:26.This time, he is dealing with one immovable object and a trade union
:11:27. > :11:30.fighting for its life. We had coverage of Alex Salmond's speech at
:11:31. > :11:39.the SNP conference. How do you rate what he said and how he has tried to
:11:40. > :11:45.galvanise support? I thought it was a very safe and solid speech. His
:11:46. > :11:50.colleagues are delighted and think it is one of the best he has given.
:11:51. > :11:54.I am not certain it will resonate much outside of the conference hall.
:11:55. > :12:02.It is not a speech which will win the referendum. The Sunday Times had
:12:03. > :12:09.no mention of the speech. There was a splash about Ineos and the speech
:12:10. > :12:13.got mentioned on page two. I think he is saving his energy and
:12:14. > :12:20.ammunition until the White Paper comes out. I think there is an
:12:21. > :12:32.element of holding out and looking for a more comprehensive approach. I
:12:33. > :12:36.think there should be a much stronger industrial policy,
:12:37. > :12:42.particularly about the North Sea and renewable energy. It is something
:12:43. > :12:46.not catered for by the government in the South. Do you think that level
:12:47. > :12:56.of detail will be an the White Paper? I think so, yes. He knows
:12:57. > :13:06.about those links to Europe and we have to realise that with a degree
:13:07. > :13:12.of Confed will power, sovereign power but with an agreement of
:13:13. > :13:17.elements we have in common with the South, that's give of sovereignty
:13:18. > :13:22.which allows us to make cooperative choices with European allies is
:13:23. > :13:32.something that much be -- must be pushed. Do you think that is what
:13:33. > :13:34.the White Paper will be about? The question of energy cooperation is
:13:35. > :13:48.essential to Alex Salmond's strategy. Some of the other elements
:13:49. > :13:52.were allowed to -- all you did to. There is a harmony in that way of
:13:53. > :13:58.approaching things. He does want to be able to see Scotland as a player
:13:59. > :14:05.on a much larger stage than just simply within the UK. Does that
:14:06. > :14:14.resonate with the public? I think so. Alistair Darling slams the HS2
:14:15. > :14:20.scheme. In other words, better together but further apart.
:14:21. > :14:23.That's all from the us this week. I'll be back at the same time next
:14:24. > :14:26.week. Until then, goodbye.