:00:35. > :00:39.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Hope you enjoyed
:00:40. > :00:43.the extra hour in bed and that you've realise it's not quarter to
:00:44. > :00:45.one. It's quarter to 12! It's getting stormy outside. But
:00:46. > :00:48.they're already battening down the hatches at Number ten because
:00:49. > :00:53.coalition splits are back, with bust-ups over free schools and power
:00:54. > :00:57.bills. We'll speak to the Lib Dems and ask Labour who's conning whom
:00:58. > :01:00.over energy. EU leaders have been meeting in
:01:01. > :01:03.Brussels. But how's David Cameron getting on with that plan to change
:01:04. > :01:13.our relationship with Europe. We were there to ask him.
:01:14. > :01:16.Have we got any powers back yet? Foreign companies own everything
:01:17. > :01:19.from our energy companies to our railways. Does it matter who owns
:01:20. > :01:23.our businesses? Union boss Bob Crow and venture capitalist Julie Meyer
:01:24. > :01:25.go head to head. And here on Sunday Politics
:01:26. > :01:29.Scotland. More on the questions surrounding the role unions play in
:01:30. > :01:30.today's workforce - could this week's events at Grangemouth signal
:01:31. > :01:45.a sea change? pace?
:01:46. > :01:48.And with me, three journalists who've bravely agreed to hunker down
:01:49. > :01:50.in the studio while Britain braces itself for massive storm winds,
:01:51. > :01:54.tweeting their political forecasts with all the accuracy of Michael
:01:55. > :02:01.Fish on hurricane watch. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt.
:02:02. > :02:05.Now, sometimes coalition splits are over-egged, or dare we say even
:02:06. > :02:09.occasionally stage-managed. But this week, we've seen what looks like the
:02:10. > :02:11.genuine article. It turns out Nick Clegg has his doubts about the
:02:12. > :02:15.coalition's flagship free schools policy. David Cameron doesn't much
:02:16. > :02:19.like the green levies on our energy bills championed by the Lib Dems.
:02:20. > :02:23.Neither of them seems to have bothered to tell the other that they
:02:24. > :02:26.had their doubts. Who better to discuss these flare-ups than Lib Dem
:02:27. > :02:37.Deputy Leader Simon Hughes? He joins me now. Welcome. Good morning. The
:02:38. > :02:41.Lib Dems spent three years of sticking up for the coalition when
:02:42. > :02:46.times were grim. Explain to me the logic of splitting from them when
:02:47. > :02:50.times look better. We will stick with it for five years. It is
:02:51. > :02:54.working arrangement, but not surprisingly, where there right
:02:55. > :02:58.areas on which we disagree over where to go next, we will stand up.
:02:59. > :03:03.It is going to be hard enough for the Lib Dems to get any credit for
:03:04. > :03:09.the recovery, what ever it is. It will be even harder if you seem to
:03:10. > :03:13.be semidetached and picky. The coalition has led on economic
:03:14. > :03:18.policy, some of which were entirely from our stable. The one you have
:03:19. > :03:24.heard about most often, a Lib Dem initiative, was to take people on
:03:25. > :03:26.blowing comes out of tax. The recovery would not have happened,
:03:27. > :03:31.there would not have been confidence in Britain, had there not been a
:03:32. > :03:36.coalition government with us in it, making sure the same policies
:03:37. > :03:40.produced fair outcomes. We are not going to leave the credit for any
:03:41. > :03:45.growth - and there has been very good news this week. We have played
:03:46. > :03:49.a part in that, and without us, it would not have happened. Does it not
:03:50. > :03:54.underline the trust problem you have? You promised to abolish
:03:55. > :04:00.tuition fees. You oppose nuclear power, now you are cheerleading the
:04:01. > :04:05.first multi-billion pounds investment in nuclear generation.
:04:06. > :04:09.You are dying out on your enthusiasm on green levies, and now they are up
:04:10. > :04:16.for renegotiation. Why should we trust a word you say? In relation to
:04:17. > :04:26.green levies, as you well know, just under 10% is to do with helping
:04:27. > :04:30.energy and helping people. Unless there is continuing investment in
:04:31. > :04:34.renewables, we will not have the British produced energy at cheaper
:04:35. > :04:39.cost to keep those bills down in the future. At cheaper cost? Explain
:04:40. > :04:48.that to me. Off-shore energy is twice the market rate. The costs of
:04:49. > :04:52.renewables will increasingly come down. We have fantastic capacity to
:04:53. > :04:57.produce the energy and deliver lots of jobs in the process. The parts of
:04:58. > :05:01.the energy bill that may be up for renegotiation seems to be the part
:05:02. > :05:07.where we subsidise to help either poor people pay less, or where we do
:05:08. > :05:12.other things. Too insulated the homes? Are you up to putting that to
:05:13. > :05:18.general taxation? Wouldn't that be progressive? I would. It would be
:05:19. > :05:21.progressive. I would like to do for energy bills what the Chancellor has
:05:22. > :05:28.done for road traffic users, drivers, which is too fuelled motor
:05:29. > :05:32.fuel -- to freeze new to fall. That would mean there would be an
:05:33. > :05:38.immediate relief this year, not waiting for the election. So there
:05:39. > :05:42.is a deal to be done there? Yes. We understand we have to take the
:05:43. > :05:45.burden off the consumer, and also deal with the energy companies, who
:05:46. > :05:49.look as if they are not paying all the tax they should be, and the
:05:50. > :05:54.regulator, which doesn't regulate quickly enough to deal with the
:05:55. > :05:58.issues coming down the track. We can toughen the regulator, and I hope
:05:59. > :06:01.that the Chancellor, in the Autumn statement, was signalled that energy
:06:02. > :06:05.companies will not be allowed to get away with not paying the taxes they
:06:06. > :06:12.should. And this deal will allow energy prices to come down? Yes. How
:06:13. > :06:17.could David Laws, one of your ministers, proudly defend the record
:06:18. > :06:22.of unqualified teachers working in free schools, and then stand
:06:23. > :06:28.side-by-side with Mr Clegg, as he says he is against them? David Laws
:06:29. > :06:33.was not proudly defending the fact that it is unqualified teachers. He
:06:34. > :06:38.said that some of the new, unqualified teachers in free schools
:06:39. > :06:43.are doing a superb job. But you want to get rid of them? We want to make
:06:44. > :06:50.sure that everybody coming into a free school ends up being qualified.
:06:51. > :06:54.Ends up? Goes through a process that means they have qualifications. Just
:06:55. > :06:59.as we said very clearly at the last election that the manifesto
:07:00. > :07:03.curriculum in free schools should be the same as other schools. It looks
:07:04. > :07:10.like Mr Clegg is picking a fight just for the sake of it. Mr Clegg
:07:11. > :07:13.was taught by people who didn't have teaching qualifications in one of
:07:14. > :07:19.the greatest schools in the land, if not the world. It didn't seem to do
:07:20. > :07:23.him any harm. What is the problem? If you pay to go to a school, you
:07:24. > :07:30.know what you're getting. But that is what a free school is. No, you
:07:31. > :07:34.don't pay fees. A free school is parents taking the decisions, not
:07:35. > :07:38.you, the politicians. We believe they would expect to guarantee is,
:07:39. > :07:43.firstly that the minimum curriculum taught across the country is taught
:07:44. > :07:46.in the free schools, and secondly, that the teachers there are
:07:47. > :07:52.qualified. Someone who send their kids to private schools took a
:07:53. > :07:58.decision to take -- to send their children there, even if the teachers
:07:59. > :08:02.were unqualified, because they are experts in their field. Someone who
:08:03. > :08:10.send their kids to free schools is because -- is their decision, not
:08:11. > :08:13.yours. Because some of the free schools are new, and have never been
:08:14. > :08:19.there before, parents need a guarantee that there are some basics
:08:20. > :08:24.in place, whatever sort of school. So they need you to hold their hand?
:08:25. > :08:28.It is not about holding hands, it is about having a minimum guarantee.
:08:29. > :08:32.Our party made clear at our conference that this is a priority
:08:33. > :08:37.for us. Nick Clegg reflects the view of the party, and I believe it is an
:08:38. > :08:40.entirely rational thing to do. Nick Clegg complained that the Prime
:08:41. > :08:49.Minister gave him only 30 minutes notice on the Prime Minister Buzz 's
:08:50. > :08:53.U-turn on green levies. That is almost as little time as Nick Clegg
:08:54. > :08:56.gave the Prime Minister on his U-turn on free schools. Aren't you
:08:57. > :09:05.supposed to be partners? Green levies were under discussion in the
:09:06. > :09:09.ministerial group before Wednesday, because we identified this as an
:09:10. > :09:16.issue. We do that in a practical way. Sometimes there is only half an
:09:17. > :09:22.hour's notice. We had even less than half an hour this morning! Simon
:09:23. > :09:26.Hughes, thank you. So the price of energy is the big
:09:27. > :09:31.battle ground in politics at the moment. 72% of people say that high
:09:32. > :09:36.bills will influence the way they vote at the next election. Ed
:09:37. > :09:41.Miliband has promised a price freeze after the next election, but will
:09:42. > :09:46.the coalition turned the tables on Labour, with its proposal to roll
:09:47. > :09:54.back green levies. Caroline Flint joins us from Sheffield. It looks
:09:55. > :10:02.like the coalition will be able to take ?50 of energy bills, by
:10:03. > :10:05.removing green levies. It is quite clear that different parts of the
:10:06. > :10:09.government are running round waking up to the fact that the public feel
:10:10. > :10:13.that this government has not done enough to listen to their concerns.
:10:14. > :10:17.Last week, there was a classic case of the Prime Minister making up
:10:18. > :10:23.policy literally at the dispatch box. Let's see what they say in the
:10:24. > :10:26.autumn statement. The truth is, whatever the debate around green
:10:27. > :10:31.levies, and I have always said we should look at value for money at
:10:32. > :10:48.those green levies. Our argument is about acknowledging there is
:10:49. > :10:50.something wrong with the way the market works, and the way those
:10:51. > :10:53.companies are regulated. Behind our freeze for 20 months is a package of
:10:54. > :10:56.proposals to reform this market. I understand that, but you cannot tell
:10:57. > :10:58.as the details about that. I can. You cannot give us the details about
:10:59. > :11:01.reforming the market. We are going to do three things, and I think I
:11:02. > :11:05.said this last time I was on the programme. First, we are going to
:11:06. > :11:12.separate out the generation side from the supply side within the big
:11:13. > :11:17.six. Secondly, we will have a energy pool, or power exchange, where all
:11:18. > :11:21.energy will have to be traded in that pool. Thirdly, we will
:11:22. > :11:25.establish a tougher regulator, because Ofgem is increasingly being
:11:26. > :11:30.seen as not doing the job right. I notice that you didn't mention any
:11:31. > :11:35.reform of the current green and social taxes on the energy bill. Is
:11:36. > :11:41.it Labour's policy to maintain the existing green levies? In 2011, the
:11:42. > :11:48.government chose to get rid of warm front, which was the publicly funded
:11:49. > :11:51.through tracks a scheme to support new installation. When they got rid
:11:52. > :11:57.of that, it was the first time we had a government since the 70s that
:11:58. > :12:02.didn't have such a policy. What is your policy? We voted against that
:12:03. > :12:08.because we believe it is wrong. We believe that the eco-scheme, a
:12:09. > :12:16.government intervention which is ?47 of the ?112 on our bills each year,
:12:17. > :12:20.is expensive, bureaucratic and isn't going to the fuel poor. I am up for
:12:21. > :12:24.a debate on these issues. I am up for a discussion on what the
:12:25. > :12:27.government should do and what these energy companies should do. We
:12:28. > :12:31.cannot let Cameron all the energy companies off the hook from the way
:12:32. > :12:37.in which they organise their businesses, and expect us to pay
:12:38. > :12:41.ever increasing rises in our bills. There is ?112 of green levies on our
:12:42. > :12:46.bills at the moment. Did you vote against any of them? We didn't, but
:12:47. > :12:53.what I would say ease these were government imposed levies. When they
:12:54. > :13:01.got rid of the government funded programme, Warm Front, they
:13:02. > :13:08.introduced the eco-scheme. The eco-project is one of the ones where
:13:09. > :13:12.the energy companies are saying, it's too bureaucratic, and it is
:13:13. > :13:14.proving more expensive than government estimates, apparently
:13:15. > :13:19.doubled the amount the government thought. These things are all worth
:13:20. > :13:25.looking at, but don't go to the heart of the issue. According to
:13:26. > :13:35.official figures, on current plans, which you support, which you voted
:13:36. > :13:42.for, households will be paying 41% more per unit of electricity by
:13:43. > :13:51.2030. It puts your temporary freeze as just a blip. You support a 41%
:13:52. > :13:55.rise in our bills. I support making sure we secure for the future access
:13:56. > :14:00.to energy that we can grow here in the UK, whether it is through
:14:01. > :14:08.nuclear, wind or solar, or other technologies yet to be developed. We
:14:09. > :14:13.should protect ourselves against energy costs we cannot control. The
:14:14. > :14:17.truth is, it is every fair for you to put that point across, and I
:14:18. > :14:22.accept that, but we need to hear the other side about the cost for bill
:14:23. > :14:25.payers if we didn't invest in new, indigenous sources of energy supply
:14:26. > :14:30.for the future, which, in the long run, will be cheaper and more
:14:31. > :14:34.secure, and create the jobs we need. I think it is important to
:14:35. > :14:38.have a debate about these issues, but they have to be seen in the
:14:39. > :14:45.right context. If we stay stuck in the past, we will pay more and we
:14:46. > :14:50.will not create jobs. How can you criticise the coalition's plans for
:14:51. > :14:55.a new nuclear station, when jeering 13 years of a Labour government, you
:14:56. > :14:58.did not invest in a single nuclear plant? You sold off all our nuclear
:14:59. > :15:12.technology to foreign companies. Energy provision was put out to
:15:13. > :15:22.private hands and there has been no obstacle in British law against
:15:23. > :15:28.ownership outside the UK. Part of this is looking ahead. Because your
:15:29. > :15:32.previous track record is so bad? What we did decide under the
:15:33. > :15:37.previous government, we came to the view, and there were discussions in
:15:38. > :15:44.our party about this, that we did need to support a nuclear future.
:15:45. > :15:47.At the time of that, David Cameron was one of those saying that
:15:48. > :15:52.nuclear power should be a last resort. And as you said, the
:15:53. > :15:58.Liberals did not support it. We stood up for that. We set in train
:15:59. > :16:02.the green light of 10 sites, including Hinkley Point, for
:16:03. > :16:06.nuclear development. I am glad to see that is making progress and we
:16:07. > :16:10.should make more progress over the years ahead. We took a tough
:16:11. > :16:18.decision when other governments had not done. You did not build a new
:16:19. > :16:26.nuclear station. When you get back into power, will you build HS2?
:16:27. > :16:33.That has not had a blank cheque from the Labour Party. I am in
:16:34. > :16:38.favour of good infrastructure. Are you in favour of?, answer the
:16:39. > :16:43.question? I have answered the question. It does not have a blank
:16:44. > :16:48.cheque. If the prices are too high, we will review the decision when we
:16:49. > :16:53.come back to vote on it. We will be looking at it closely. We have to
:16:54. > :16:58.look for value for money and how it benefits the country. Have you
:16:59. > :17:02.stocked up on jumpers this winter? I am perfectly all right with my
:17:03. > :17:10.clothing. What is important, it is ridiculous for the Government to
:17:11. > :17:19.suggest that the answer to the loss of trust in the energy companies is
:17:20. > :17:25.to put on another jumper. The coalition has taken a long time
:17:26. > :17:30.to come up with anything that can trump Ed Miliband's simple freezing
:17:31. > :17:36.energy prices, vote for us. Are they on the brink of doing so? I do
:17:37. > :17:39.not think so. They have had a problem that has dominated the
:17:40. > :17:45.debate, talking about GDP, the figures came out on Friday and said,
:17:46. > :17:50.well, and went back to talking about energy. My problem with what
:17:51. > :17:56.David Cameron proposes is he agrees with the analysis that the Big Six
:17:57. > :18:01.make too many profits. He wants to move the green levies into general
:18:02. > :18:06.taxation, so that he looks like he is protecting the profits of the
:18:07. > :18:11.energy companies. If the coalition can say they will take money off
:18:12. > :18:17.the bills, does that change the game? I do not think the Liberal
:18:18. > :18:23.Democrats are an obstacle to unwinding the green levies. I think
:18:24. > :18:28.Nick Clegg is open to doing a deal, but the real obstacle is the carbon
:18:29. > :18:33.reduction targets that we signed up to during the boom years. They were
:18:34. > :18:37.ambitious I thought at the time. From that we have the taxes and
:18:38. > :18:42.clocking up of the supply-side of the economy. Unless he will revise
:18:43. > :18:46.that, and build from first principles a new strategy, he
:18:47. > :18:53.cannot do more than put a dent into green levies. He might say as I
:18:54. > :18:57.have got to ?50 now and if you voters in in an overall majority, I
:18:58. > :19:02.will look up what we have done in the better times and give you more.
:19:03. > :19:07.I am sure he will do that. It might be ?50 of the Bill, but it will be
:19:08. > :19:12.?50 on your general taxation bill, which would be more progressive.
:19:13. > :19:19.They will find it. We will never see it in general taxation. The
:19:20. > :19:24.problem for the Coalition on what Ed Miliband has done is that it is
:19:25. > :19:29.five weeks since he made that speech and it is all we are talking
:19:30. > :19:32.about. David Cameron spent those five weeks trying to work out
:19:33. > :19:35.whether Ed Miliband is a Marxist or whether he is connected to Middle
:19:36. > :19:41.Britain. That is why Ed Miliband set the agenda. The coalition are
:19:42. > :19:48.squabbling among themselves, looking petulant, on energy, and on
:19:49. > :19:54.schools. Nobody is taking notice of the fact the economy is under way,
:19:55. > :20:00.the recovery is under way. Ed Miliband has made the weather on
:20:01. > :20:06.this. It UK has a relaxed attitude about
:20:07. > :20:14.selling off assets based -- to companies based abroad. But this
:20:15. > :20:16.week we have seen the Swiss owner of one of Scotland's largest
:20:17. > :20:20.industrial sites, Grangemouth, come within a whisker of closing part of
:20:21. > :20:22.it down. So should we care whether British assets have foreign owners?
:20:23. > :20:25.Britain might be a nation of homeowners, but we appear to have
:20:26. > :20:30.lost our taste for owning some of our biggest businesses. These are
:20:31. > :20:38.among the crown jewels sold off in the past three decades to companies
:20:39. > :20:40.based abroad. Roughly half of Britain's essential services have
:20:41. > :20:42.overseas owners. The airport owner, British Airports Authority, is
:20:43. > :20:45.owned by a Spanish company. Britain's largest water company,
:20:46. > :20:48.Thames, is owned by a consortium led by an Australian bank. Four out
:20:49. > :20:51.of six of Britain's biggest energy companies are owned by overseas
:20:52. > :20:54.giants, and one of these, EDF Energy, which is owned by the
:20:55. > :20:56.French state, is building Britain's first nuclear power plant in a
:20:57. > :21:04.generation, backed by Chinese investors. It's a similar story for
:21:05. > :21:09.train operator Arriva, bought by a company owned by the German state.
:21:10. > :21:12.So part of the railways privatised by the British government was
:21:13. > :21:21.effectively re-nationalised by the German government. But does it
:21:22. > :21:24.matter who owns these companies, as long as the lights stay on, the
:21:25. > :21:31.trains run on time, and we can still eat Cadbury's Dairy Milk?
:21:32. > :21:36.We are joined by the general secretary of the RMT, Bob Crow, and
:21:37. > :21:43.by venture capitalist Julie Meyer. They go head to head.
:21:44. > :21:49.Have we seen the consequences of relying for essential services to
:21:50. > :21:55.be foreign-owned? Four of the Big Six energy companies, Grangemouth,
:21:56. > :22:02.owned by a tax exile in Switzerland. It is not good. I do not think
:22:03. > :22:07.there is a cause and effect relationship between foreign
:22:08. > :22:11.ownership and consumer prices. That is not the right comparison. We
:22:12. > :22:15.need to be concerned about businesses represented the future,
:22:16. > :22:19.businesses we are good at innovating for example in financial
:22:20. > :22:26.services and the UK has a history of building businesses, such as
:22:27. > :22:36.Monotypes. If we were not creating businesses here -- Monotise. Like
:22:37. > :22:46.so many businesses creating products and services and creating
:22:47. > :22:52.the shareholders. Should we allow hour essential services to be in
:22:53. > :22:55.foreign ownership? It was demonstrated this week at
:22:56. > :23:00.Grangemouth. If you do not own the industry, you do not own it. The
:23:01. > :23:04.MPs of this country and the politicians in Scotland have no say,
:23:05. > :23:11.they were consultants. Multinationals decide whether to
:23:12. > :23:15.shut a company down. If that had been Unite union, they are the ones
:23:16. > :23:21.who saved the jobs. They capitulated. They will come back,
:23:22. > :23:26.like they have for the past 150 years, and capture again what they
:23:27. > :23:32.lost. If it had closed, they would have lost their jobs for ever. If
:23:33. > :23:37.the union had called the members up without a ballot for strike action,
:23:38. > :23:41.there would have been uproar. This person in Switzerland can decide to
:23:42. > :23:47.shut the entire industry down. The coalition, the Labour Party, as
:23:48. > :23:52.well, when Labour was in government, they played a role of allowing
:23:53. > :24:04.industries to go abroad, and it should be returned to public
:24:05. > :24:12.ownership. Nestor. It has demonstrated that the Net comes
:24:13. > :24:18.from new businesses. We must not be... When Daly motion was stopped
:24:19. > :24:23.by the French government to be sold, it was an arrow to the heart of
:24:24. > :24:27.French entrepreneurs. We must not create that culture in the UK.
:24:28. > :24:31.Every train running in France is built in France. 90% of the trains
:24:32. > :24:42.running in Germany are built in Germany. In Japan, it has to be
:24:43. > :24:46.built in that country, and now an energy company in France is
:24:47. > :24:50.reducing its nuclear capability in its own country and wants to make
:24:51. > :24:54.profits out of the British industry to put back into it state industry.
:24:55. > :24:58.That happened with the railway industry. They want to make money
:24:59. > :25:09.at the expense of their own state companies. We sold off energy
:25:10. > :25:14.production. How did we end up in a position where our nuclear capacity
:25:15. > :25:17.will be built by a company owned by a socialist date, France, and
:25:18. > :25:26.funded by a communist one, China, for vital infrastructure? I am not
:25:27. > :25:30.suggesting that is in the national interest. I am saying we can pick
:25:31. > :25:35.any one example and say it is a shame. The simple matter of the
:25:36. > :25:39.fact is the owners are having to make decisions. Not just
:25:40. > :25:44.Grangemouth, businesses are making decisions about what is the common
:25:45. > :25:50.good. Not just in the shareholders' interest. For employees, customers.
:25:51. > :25:55.What is in the common good when prices go up by 10% and the reason
:25:56. > :25:59.is that 20 years ago they shut every coal pit down in this country,
:26:00. > :26:02.the Germans kept theirs open and subsidised it and now we have the
:26:03. > :26:11.Germans doing away with nuclear power and they have coal. Under the
:26:12. > :26:17.Labour government, in 2008, the climate change Act was passed. Well
:26:18. > :26:21.before that, and you know yourself, they shut down the coal mines to
:26:22. > :26:25.smash the National Union of Mineworkers because they dared to
:26:26. > :26:30.stand up for people in their community. Even if we wanted to
:26:31. > :26:35.reopen the coalmines, it would be pointless. Under the 2008 Act, we
:26:36. > :26:42.are not meant to burn more coal. The can, as if you spent some of
:26:43. > :26:50.the profits, you could have carbon catch up. That does not exist on a
:26:51. > :26:54.massive scale. You are arguing the case, Julie Meyer, for
:26:55. > :26:59.entrepreneurs to come to this country. Even Bob Crow is not
:27:00. > :27:06.against that. We are trying to argue, should essential services be
:27:07. > :27:13.in foreign hands? Not those in Silicon round about doing start-ups.
:27:14. > :27:18.I am trying to draw a broader principle than just energy.
:27:19. > :27:24.Something like broadband services, also important to the functioning
:27:25. > :27:29.of the economy. I believe in the UK's ability to innovate. When we
:27:30. > :27:34.have businesses that play off broadband companies to get the best
:27:35. > :27:40.prices for consumers. These new businesses and business models are
:27:41. > :27:46.the best way. Not to control, but to influence. It will be a disaster.
:27:47. > :27:52.Prices will go up and up as a result. Nissan in Sunderland, a
:27:53. > :27:56.Japanese factory, some of the best cars and productivity. You want
:27:57. > :28:01.that to be nationalised and bring it down to the standard of British
:28:02. > :28:04.Leyland? It is not bring it down to the standard. The car manufacturing
:28:05. > :28:12.base in this country has been wrecked. We make more cars now for
:28:13. > :28:17.20 years -- than in 20 years. Ford's Dagenham produced some of
:28:18. > :28:24.the best cars in the world. Did you buy one? I cannot drive. They moved
:28:25. > :28:30.their plants to other countries, where it was cheaper labour. Would
:28:31. > :28:36.you nationalise Nissan? There should be one car industry that
:28:37. > :28:40.produces cars for people. This week the EU summit was about Angela
:28:41. > :28:49.Merkel's mobile phone being tapped, they call it a handy. We sent Adam
:28:50. > :28:52.to Brussels and told him to ignore the business about phone-tapping
:28:53. > :29:02.and investigate the Prime Minister's policy on Europe instead.
:29:03. > :29:11.I have come to my first EU summit to see how David Cameron is getting on
:29:12. > :29:20.with his strategy to claim power was back from Brussels. Got any powers
:29:21. > :29:25.back yet? Yes! Which ones? Sadly, his fellow leaders were not as
:29:26. > :29:31.forthcoming. Chancellor, are you going to give any powers back to
:29:32. > :29:35.Britain? Has David Cameron asked you for any powers back? The president
:29:36. > :29:44.of the commission just laughed, and listen to the Lithuanian President.
:29:45. > :29:54.How is David Cameron's renegotiation strategy going? What's that? He
:29:55. > :29:58.wants powers back for Britain. No one knows what powers David Cameron
:29:59. > :30:06.actually wants. Even our usual allies, like Sweden, are bit
:30:07. > :30:12.baffled. We actually don't know yet what is going through the UK
:30:13. > :30:18.membership. We will await the finalisation of that first. You
:30:19. > :30:23.should ask him, and then tell us! Here is someone who must know, the
:30:24. > :30:29.Dutch Prime Minister, he is doing what we are doing, carrying out a
:30:30. > :30:34.review of the EU powers, known as competencies in the jargon, before
:30:35. > :30:37.negotiating to get some back. Have you had any negotiations with David
:30:38. > :30:44.Cameron over what powers you can bring back from Brussels? That is
:30:45. > :30:49.not on the agenda of this summit. Have you talked to him about it?
:30:50. > :30:55.This is not on the schedule for this summit.
:30:56. > :31:05.David Cameron's advises tummy it is because he is playing the long game.
:31:06. > :31:11.-- David Cameron's advisers tell me. At this summit, there was a task
:31:12. > :31:18.force discussing how to cut EU red tape. Just how long this game is was
:31:19. > :31:24.explained to me outside the summit, by the leader of the Conservatives
:31:25. > :31:28.in the European Parliament. I think the behind-the-scenes negotiations
:31:29. > :31:31.will start happening when the new commissioner is appointed later next
:31:32. > :31:36.year. I think the detailed negotiations will start to happen
:31:37. > :31:40.bubbly after the UK general election. That is when we will start
:31:41. > :31:49.getting all of the detail of the horse trading, and real, Lake night
:31:50. > :31:53.negotiations. Angela Merkel seems keen to rewrite the EU's main
:31:54. > :31:58.treaties to deal with changes in the Eurozone, and that is the mechanism
:31:59. > :32:02.David Cameron would use to renegotiate our membership. Everyone
:32:03. > :32:06.here says his relationship with the German Chancellor is strong. So
:32:07. > :32:12.after days in this building, here is how it looks. David Cameron has a
:32:13. > :32:16.mountain to climb. It is climbable, but he isn't even in the foothills
:32:17. > :32:21.yet. Has he even started packing his bags for the trip?
:32:22. > :32:29.Joining us now, a man who knows a thing or two about the difficulties
:32:30. > :32:32.Prime Minister 's face in Europe. Former Deputy Prime Minister,
:32:33. > :32:37.Michael Heseltine. We are nine months from David Cameron's defining
:32:38. > :32:43.speech on EU renegotiation. Can you think of one area of progress? I
:32:44. > :32:51.don't know. And you don't know. And that's a good thing. Why is it a
:32:52. > :33:02.good thing? Because the real progress goes on behind closed
:33:03. > :33:04.doors. And only the most naive, because the real progress goes on
:33:05. > :33:33.behind You are much better off making
:33:34. > :33:41.progress the best you can in the privacy. It is a long journey ahead.
:33:42. > :33:53.Do you have a clear sense of the destination? No. I have a clear
:33:54. > :34:03.sense of the destination which is the victor the key will win to stay
:34:04. > :34:10.inside the European community. I of course have total support for that.
:34:11. > :34:13.If he is incapable of getting any tangible sign of the negotiation and
:34:14. > :34:21.is able to do only what Harold Wilson don't in 1975 which is
:34:22. > :34:29.getting a couple of talking changes, he goes on to the referendum without
:34:30. > :34:39.much to answer for, doesn't he? He has everything to argue for. He has
:34:40. > :34:45.Britain's vital role as a major contributor and beneficiary. He has
:34:46. > :34:55.the vital role of the city of London. He could argue for that now.
:34:56. > :35:03.He doesn't want to have a referendum now and I have no doubt he will come
:35:04. > :35:12.back with something to talk about. It may be slightly different to what
:35:13. > :35:19.his critics, the UK isolationists, want. He may have found allies
:35:20. > :35:30.within the community want change as well. He may secure changes the way
:35:31. > :35:34.the community works, which would be a significant argument within the
:35:35. > :35:39.referendum campaign. As an example, I happen to think it is a scandal
:35:40. > :35:44.the European commission do not secure the auditing of some of the
:35:45. > :35:49.accounts. Perhaps that could be on the agenda. He might find a lot of
:35:50. > :36:00.contributing countries, like Germany and Holland, might be very keen. We
:36:01. > :36:06.saw the other day he vetoed the increase in the European budget and
:36:07. > :36:10.he had a lot of allies, so working within Europe or the things the
:36:11. > :36:15.people want is fertile ground in my view.
:36:16. > :36:21.Is John Major right to call for a windfall tax on the energy
:36:22. > :36:28.companies? Here's a very cautious Philip Hollobone does not say things
:36:29. > :36:35.thinking about. -- -- cautious fellow. It is pretty difficult to
:36:36. > :36:42.predict what the consequences would be. I am myself more interested in
:36:43. > :36:47.the other part of his speech which was speaking about the need for the
:36:48. > :36:52.Conservatives to seek a wider horizon and recognise what is
:36:53. > :36:58.happening to the party and the way in which its membership is
:36:59. > :37:06.shrinking. I take it you are not for a windfall tax? I am not in favour
:37:07. > :37:11.of increasing taxes anywhere. Do you shear scepticism on Iain Duncan
:37:12. > :37:21.Smith's ability to succeed with welfare reform? I think he is right
:37:22. > :37:24.and I indeed wrote a pamphlet in the 1980s called no place for hostages
:37:25. > :37:34.arguing for what he is now trying to do. -- ostriches. He is right to try
:37:35. > :37:43.this and public opinion is behind him but it is not easy because on
:37:44. > :37:50.the fringe of these issues, there are genuine hard luck stories and
:37:51. > :37:54.these are the ones that become the focus for attention and it requires
:37:55. > :38:02.a lot of political skill to negotiate through that. Is he right
:38:03. > :38:09.to invoke the beverage principle that you should be expected to make
:38:10. > :38:17.a contribution? -- Beveridge. We will let you get your Sunday lunch.
:38:18. > :38:29.Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:38:30. > :38:33.programme. Grangemouth over the past week has
:38:34. > :38:37.captivated the country. We will be examining the future role of unions
:38:38. > :38:40.in industrial relations. We'll weigh that up with a panel of people
:38:41. > :38:43.who've discussed and debated the place of unions in Scotland for
:38:44. > :38:46.several decades. And a win in Dunfermline for Scottish Labour -
:38:47. > :38:49.we'll speak to their leader Johann Lamont about how the party plans to
:38:50. > :38:52.capitalise on the victory. Scotland's biggest industrial
:38:53. > :38:55.complex was close to collapse this week, saved at the eleventh hour by
:38:56. > :38:58.the total capitulation of a once powerful, unionised workforce. There
:38:59. > :39:01.were certainly echoes of the 1970s in the Grangemouth dispute, but
:39:02. > :39:06.Unite the union was overwhelmed by the hardline tactics of 21st century
:39:07. > :39:10.mobile capital. Politicians were virtually powerless too in the face
:39:11. > :39:13.of this emerging phenomenon. As Andrew Kerr reports, industrial
:39:14. > :39:28.relations may never be the same again.
:39:29. > :39:31.The spear Grangemouth this week with 800 workers having to tell their
:39:32. > :39:37.families they were probably out of a job. People will probably never
:39:38. > :39:42.forget these events but there's a more positive outcome. A more
:39:43. > :39:48.harmonious relationship has been re-established here at Grangemouth.
:39:49. > :39:54.Really for the workers and now perhaps recriminations against the
:39:55. > :40:03.union. They marched their members up to the top of the hell but had to
:40:04. > :40:07.march back down again. Ineos wanted the other way and were prepared to
:40:08. > :40:15.take the sanction. Those are the methods of multinationals playing a
:40:16. > :40:21.global game. We want to see a long-term future for Grangemouth. We
:40:22. > :40:30.should be talking about them about the levels of long-term investment.
:40:31. > :40:37.Not just intent on a fight. The world has moved on from the 1970s.
:40:38. > :40:42.It certainly has. Look at the deal struck if you can even call it that.
:40:43. > :40:49.They agreed to a three-year pay freeze with no strikes, closure of
:40:50. > :40:56.the final salary pension scheme and no full-time union conveners. The
:40:57. > :41:02.union was over a barrel this week, a far cry from these days. There will
:41:03. > :41:14.be no vandalism, there will be no bevvying! They were dealing with
:41:15. > :41:18.Ineos this time. If they had watched what was happening over the years,
:41:19. > :41:25.this is a business that has had to deal with international bankers and
:41:26. > :41:29.won that round. It clearly was signalling there were problems and
:41:30. > :41:33.we have not been listening hard enough to understand how important
:41:34. > :41:37.it was to accept the changes which are facing most people in Scotland
:41:38. > :41:44.today. Some Labour MPs have been defending the union but whether the
:41:45. > :41:51.tactics were hardline and uncompromising. We can only
:41:52. > :41:57.represent the members we are representing at that time. We had
:41:58. > :42:06.our members faced with three days to make key decisions on really radical
:42:07. > :42:10.changes to terms and conditions. That probably means an emasculated
:42:11. > :42:18.union at Grangemouth but it seems there's still a for them and perhaps
:42:19. > :42:23.one more powerful. Any union has an important part to play and has two
:42:24. > :42:27.learn the lessons of what did not work but I imagine any management
:42:28. > :42:31.would want to make sure of that as well because it is an easy and
:42:32. > :42:37.powerful way to get through to the staff of what needs to happen. I
:42:38. > :42:43.imagine they will want to make union relationships work as well. Jim
:42:44. > :42:51.Ratcliffe has called for the UK to the former Labour relations. The
:42:52. > :42:55.question now is how many other employers have been watching this
:42:56. > :42:58.dispute with interest wondering how far they can now push the unions.
:42:59. > :43:01.Joining me now in the studio to discuss the fall out from last weeks
:43:02. > :43:05.events - former Falkirk West Labour MP and later, Independent MSP,
:43:06. > :43:08.Dennis Canavan and Chris Bartter who was with Unison Scotland for 20
:43:09. > :43:11.years. And in our Edinburgh studio, Alan Cochrane, Scottish Editor of
:43:12. > :43:22.the Daily Telegraph. Good afternoon. As the dust settles,
:43:23. > :43:26.who was to blame? Now was not the time for recriminations. I had the
:43:27. > :43:32.privilege of representing the Falkirk area for over 30 years and
:43:33. > :43:38.many of my former constituents are employed at Grangemouth. They are
:43:39. > :43:47.not militant extremists. Where they misled? I do not like the way they
:43:48. > :43:51.and the trade union movement have been demonised by certain elements
:43:52. > :43:57.in the media and certain politicians. These people by and
:43:58. > :44:05.large are responsible citizens and employees and trade unionists. I
:44:06. > :44:10.think the officials of the trade union in retrospect could say things
:44:11. > :44:14.should have been handled better. That is all well in hindsight but
:44:15. > :44:20.they were up against a ruthless and intransigent employer who was not
:44:21. > :44:24.coming clean with the workforce, and we are where all sorts of
:44:25. > :44:29.allegations coming out. Jim Ratcliffe was saying they are to be
:44:30. > :44:34.honest about the finances. That is what was lacking all along, the lack
:44:35. > :44:40.of honesty and transparency on behalf of the employer, and I think
:44:41. > :44:45.there would have been a better and there weren't, had we had there been
:44:46. > :44:54.transparency. Was the union demonised? I was astonished when you
:44:55. > :45:03.said this was a case when the union was overwhelmed by 20th-century
:45:04. > :45:07.mobile capitalism. They were overwhelmed by a union that walked
:45:08. > :45:10.straight into a trap. The management wanted to change these working
:45:11. > :45:17.practices and instead of arguing about the practices, the union
:45:18. > :45:27.decided to fight a stupid 1970s battle about political power way or
:45:28. > :45:33.the convener, according to the evidence amassed, he was spending a
:45:34. > :45:37.quarter of his time trying to organise or fix a constituency
:45:38. > :45:41.Labour Party selection. That is nothing to do with trade unions as
:45:42. > :45:50.we understand them now. What about wages and conditions? This is what
:45:51. > :45:54.the union chose to fight. This was a unique situation in terms of
:45:55. > :45:58.industrial relations what the company controlled by one powerful
:45:59. > :46:07.man, so negotiation would be very different to what you would normally
:46:08. > :46:22.expect? Probably most trade union negotiations traditionally have not
:46:23. > :46:30.been done like this. They usually negotiate collectively but this was
:46:31. > :46:35.not like that at all. I also have felt that the attitudes to the trade
:46:36. > :46:39.unions over the last week or so has been quite disgraceful from some
:46:40. > :46:46.quarters of the media. They are the victims here. Have they served their
:46:47. > :46:54.members well when you look at the outcome? I think the situation with
:46:55. > :47:02.the union is that you have to remember the union is its members in
:47:03. > :47:10.this sense. They vote for strike action over the attacks on wages and
:47:11. > :47:20.conditions was an 82% of vote on an 86% return. The decision to go back
:47:21. > :47:27.and accept the ultimatum from Jim Ratcliffe was a workforce decision.
:47:28. > :47:31.You are shaking your head? Everyone seems to be forgetting the initial
:47:32. > :47:38.strike was called over speedy deans but I agree, this dispute shows
:47:39. > :47:44.Scotland on both sides in a very bad light. -- Stevie Deans. I have
:47:45. > :47:47.spoken to outsiders involved in these negotiations and they have all
:47:48. > :47:52.been astonished by the level of personal animosity between the shop
:47:53. > :48:01.floor and the management. It was poisonous. It was a stupid union
:48:02. > :48:06.dealing with management levels which were impenetrable. They could not
:48:07. > :48:10.work out what the management structure was and everything had to
:48:11. > :48:22.go back to Jim Ratcliffe, but instead of fighting that battle,
:48:23. > :48:29.they wanted to fight on deans. What does this tell us about union
:48:30. > :48:33.relations going forward? The positive part of this outcome was
:48:34. > :48:44.that thousands of jobs have been saved, although belatedly. The
:48:45. > :48:52.negative part is the management and the order still seem intent on
:48:53. > :48:56.victimising the workforce. -- and Jim Ratcliffe. They are now coming
:48:57. > :49:01.up with suggestions that people that voted against the company proposal
:49:02. > :49:07.should get a worse deal on pensions than people who voted for it. If
:49:08. > :49:13.ever there is a way to continue the acrimony and bad industrial
:49:14. > :49:16.relations, that is the way to do it. Scotland is light years behind some
:49:17. > :49:24.other countries in terms of industrial democracy. Look at
:49:25. > :49:32.Denmark and Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. Look at
:49:33. > :49:37.Germany, even. Workers have more salient in planning and investment
:49:38. > :49:44.decisions of their companies and instead of this silly confrontation,
:49:45. > :49:51.you get more of a cooperation and better productivity. Looking for
:49:52. > :49:59.work, what we need to say is it wasn't just the workforce, it was
:50:00. > :50:03.also politicians and communities in Scotland that had the gun held to
:50:04. > :50:13.his head. Would he not argue it is has money? He is going to borrow
:50:14. > :50:20.money from here... He now has the UK government to give a loan guarantee.
:50:21. > :50:25.If he defaults, it is us that had to pay it back, so he has actually
:50:26. > :50:32.helped that loaded gun across the board to all of us and walked away.
:50:33. > :50:39.I worry considerably that the 25 years future that was spoken of in
:50:40. > :50:53.the press yesterday by the company and politicians will only last as
:50:54. > :50:57.long as the next demand. It will work in Scotland, it will work only
:50:58. > :51:03.if they give up this idea they can run political parties as well. Ed
:51:04. > :51:08.Miliband is trying to distance himself, you cannot have the union
:51:09. > :51:13.at a loss-making plant spending a quarter of its time fiddling a
:51:14. > :51:18.selection conference. That is not the way to get worker representation
:51:19. > :51:24.on board. These allegations have not been proven. We need to look at
:51:25. > :51:29.governmental responsibility and taxpayers money going into these
:51:30. > :51:34.companies. The UK government have put a loan guarantee of ?125
:51:35. > :51:40.million, the Scottish government regional development assistance of
:51:41. > :51:44.?9 million. That is a lot of taxpayers money, and in return I
:51:45. > :51:48.think both governments should use that money is leveraged to ensure
:51:49. > :51:54.that the company treats its workers in a more responsible way. Corporate
:51:55. > :51:59.responsibility is something very lacking in companies like INEOS. If
:52:00. > :52:05.there was more a responsibility to their workforce, I think the trade
:52:06. > :52:11.unions would respond in a more responsible way. Thank you all for
:52:12. > :52:19.coming in to speak to us today. Labour won the Scottish Parliament
:52:20. > :52:22.by-election. A 7% swing from the Nationalists. What does this tell us
:52:23. > :52:32.about the political education in Scotland? If it's just a blip for
:52:33. > :52:37.Alex Salmond? Labour has been the dominant force
:52:38. > :52:41.in Dunfermline since the creation of the Scottish parliament, but that
:52:42. > :52:46.hold was broken in 2011 when Bill Walker secured a victory for the
:52:47. > :52:49.SNP. This week's by-election was
:52:50. > :52:56.triggered by his resignation after he was thrown out by his party and
:52:57. > :53:01.jailed for domestic abuse. It was a campaign fought on local issues, not
:53:02. > :53:07.least proposed school closures. The SNP had the best-known candidate and
:53:08. > :53:12.focused on national policies like the council tax freeze. But mid-term
:53:13. > :53:17.votes tend to be unkind to those in government, and so it was in
:53:18. > :53:28.Dunfermline. The SNP's share of the vote fell by 7%, the Lib Dems were
:53:29. > :53:32.down 8%. Labour's candidate, she claimed her victory reflected the
:53:33. > :53:42.public's frustration with the referendum campaign.
:53:43. > :53:48.I will repay your trust in me after the disgrace of Bill Walker,
:53:49. > :53:54.Dunfermline deserves better and I will ensure that we will be far
:53:55. > :53:59.better than what went before. Dunfermline has sent a message to
:54:00. > :54:03.Alex Salmond, it is time for you to concentrate on the real priorities
:54:04. > :54:09.of Scottish people not your constitutional obsession. That is a
:54:10. > :54:12.sentiment shared by her party's leadership. But what does the
:54:13. > :54:16.success mean for the bigger battles which lie ahead?
:54:17. > :54:22.The leader of Scottish Labour is with me now. Let me ask you about
:54:23. > :54:27.Grangemouth, as we were discussing that. How well did Scottish
:54:28. > :54:31.ministers handle the situation? I was very pleased the Scottish and UK
:54:32. > :54:35.government came together to solve this problem. At the very heart of
:54:36. > :54:41.this was a workforce and community in shock and treated very badly. I
:54:42. > :54:45.was very glad the government came together to secure the jobs for
:54:46. > :54:54.those people and their families and the broader UK economy. If I was in
:54:55. > :54:58.the privilege -- privileged position of government my focus would have
:54:59. > :55:02.been on the implications for those families and the Scottish economy.
:55:03. > :55:05.We would work to do whatever we could to make sure those jobs were
:55:06. > :55:12.secure. As regards the situation which has emerged which started with
:55:13. > :55:15.Stephen Denes and his role in the Falkirk selection. There is a
:55:16. > :55:19.newspaper story today which said e-mails have been handed in to the
:55:20. > :55:23.police suggesting dirty tricks in terms of getting people to withdraw
:55:24. > :55:28.allegations, is it time for Ed Miliband to look into this again? I
:55:29. > :55:32.have not seen the e-mails, but if they are serious allegations they
:55:33. > :55:39.need to be looked at. I'm determined to make sure we look at an open
:55:40. > :55:43.process for selection and select a candidate who will represent labour
:55:44. > :55:50.and stand up for the people of Falkirk. That needs to be the focus
:55:51. > :55:57.in the coming period. Where the process is wrong up until now? The
:55:58. > :56:02.investigation by the party looked at the scale of the challenge. People
:56:03. > :56:06.were expressing concerns about Falkirk, and I'm determined the
:56:07. > :56:11.Labour Party is open and transparent. It is not a plaything
:56:12. > :56:14.of individual groupings. The message for me is that if anyone believes
:56:15. > :56:20.the big battle in the Labour Party is to get selected, they are sending
:56:21. > :56:25.out the wrong message. You cannot presume people's support. I am
:56:26. > :56:29.determined we are very clear, the main thing we do is go out to speak
:56:30. > :56:34.to people, listen to their concerns and stand up for them. Any
:56:35. > :56:42.presumption we take the voters for granted is entirely unacceptable.
:56:43. > :56:49.You one in Dunfermline, but if that was replicated across Scotland you
:56:50. > :56:53.still would not be able to overturn the SNP's majority. In your desire
:56:54. > :56:59.to be First Minister and for your party to lead this country, do you
:57:00. > :57:07.accept it might take two general elections to do that? There is this
:57:08. > :57:11.recognition, even with a 7% swing, that perhaps we would almost be the
:57:12. > :57:17.biggest party. It tells us that scale of the challenge ahead of us.
:57:18. > :57:22.We have made very good progress from a very difficult stage. I said the
:57:23. > :57:27.Labour Party would change, we would win back the support of the people
:57:28. > :57:33.of Scotland. That is a work in progress. I am not complacent about
:57:34. > :57:38.this. We will be credible and competitive, and Alex Salmond may,
:57:39. > :57:42.through arithmetic, establish you doing OK. What he is doing is
:57:43. > :57:49.ignoring the mesh -- the message being given to him. People are
:57:50. > :57:53.concerned Alex Salmond is not representing and doing his job.
:57:54. > :57:59.By-elections rarely changed anything, and the most recent poll
:58:00. > :58:03.showed 57% support for the first in a strand the government in what they
:58:04. > :58:08.are doing. Even at this stage they seem to be doing well in the eyes of
:58:09. > :58:19.the public. It does not feel like that to me. The SNP have failed to
:58:20. > :58:24.win any by-elections since 2012. The people of Scotland are saying to
:58:25. > :58:28.Alex Salmond, do your day job. Tell us what you think about
:58:29. > :58:33.independence, but at the same time, what can you do in terms of creating
:58:34. > :58:39.economic opportunities? What can you be doing about making our education
:58:40. > :58:42.system better? What can you do about the care situation with too many
:58:43. > :58:49.people left isolated in their own home? Can people legitimately say of
:58:50. > :58:53.you and your party, we know what you are against? You are against
:58:54. > :59:00.independence, the bedroom tax, what are you for? We have a long process
:59:01. > :59:06.to go through. It is about rebuilding trust. We do need to talk
:59:07. > :59:14.much more positively about the kind of Scotland we want to see. What are
:59:15. > :59:21.the issues you are for? Education and opportunity. The fact that too
:59:22. > :59:27.many of our young people's life decisions are determined by a young
:59:28. > :59:31.age. What is happening in terms of colleges and carer. These are big
:59:32. > :59:34.issues we could be addressing cross party in Scottish Parliament right
:59:35. > :59:40.now. Unfortunately everything is seen through the frame of
:59:41. > :59:44.independence. As we come towards a 2016 election there will be very
:59:45. > :59:48.specific things we will be talking about. What I am determined is that
:59:49. > :59:53.my view and vision of Scotland have two relate to what people's lives
:59:54. > :59:58.are alike. It will not be a trading of slogans, it will be how we make
:59:59. > :00:02.sure our young people get the best education. How do we stop the
:00:03. > :00:06.attacks on further education, and how do we ensure our health and
:00:07. > :00:12.social care Airbuses mean people are treated with dignity. Given what use
:00:13. > :00:17.said said in the past about universal benefits, people might
:00:18. > :00:21.have been confused by the leaflet you put during the Dunfermline
:00:22. > :00:25.by-election where you said you supported the scrapping of
:00:26. > :00:32.prescription charges. Labour supports the free bus passes. Labour
:00:33. > :00:36.supports the tax freeze. It is a reflection of the cartoon politics
:00:37. > :00:41.we are living with that their SNP misrepresent what Labour has said. I
:00:42. > :00:44.have never said that some people get something for nothing. I have said
:00:45. > :00:49.you have to look both at what you spend money on and what are the
:00:50. > :00:52.consequences of that. It is not acceptable to say free personal care
:00:53. > :00:56.when people are living with the experience of less than 15 minute
:00:57. > :01:01.visits. I want to sustain public services and we need to have a
:01:02. > :01:06.debate about that. I am in the same place in that debate as many others,
:01:07. > :01:19.as John Swinney himself said in private. How do you see the council
:01:20. > :01:26.tax freeze? He is a respected academic. Do you agree with his
:01:27. > :01:32.findings? We will of course look at the report. But your leaflet says
:01:33. > :01:39.labour supports the council tax freeze, he says it is an inefficient
:01:40. > :01:43.use of public funds. Up until 2017 local authorities made commitments
:01:44. > :01:48.to have a council tax freeze. First of all, the council tax freeze is
:01:49. > :01:52.underfunded. John Swinney has attacked local government then
:01:53. > :01:57.condemns local government for making cuts. Secondly we know that the
:01:58. > :02:00.council tax is discredited. I would hope that a cross-party we could
:02:01. > :02:05.have a discussion about how we properly fund local government. Are
:02:06. > :02:09.you talking about a change to the council tax? There is a huge
:02:10. > :02:21.challenge. People do not want to pay their council tax. Is labour working
:02:22. > :02:25.on an alternative? The prize cross-party is to understand that
:02:26. > :02:30.people really care about their local services. We know the funding of
:02:31. > :02:34.them is not sustainable. I want a discussion, not where the parties
:02:35. > :02:39.get dividing lines between each other, but come together and address
:02:40. > :02:43.the challenge of how do you properly build a confidence in the way in
:02:44. > :02:46.which you raise taxes locally in order to ensure our schools are well
:02:47. > :02:53.equipped and our young people are properly educated. Thank you for
:02:54. > :03:00.joining us this afternoon. Still to come, a look at the week
:03:01. > :03:08.ahead. You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Here is the news.
:03:09. > :03:14.Good afternoon. Two former senior police officers have clashed over
:03:15. > :03:19.security implications in independent Scotland. Graeme Pearson, former
:03:20. > :03:24.head of the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency there's effective
:03:25. > :03:36.working is easier as part of the UK. Allan Burnett, he says a Scottish
:03:37. > :03:40.intelligence agency could do better. Eight people have been rescued
:03:41. > :03:45.following a fire in the East End of Glasgow. Emergency crews were called
:03:46. > :03:52.to the Dennistoun area just before 1:30am. The residents, including two
:03:53. > :03:56.children, were taken off the fifth floor by firefighters. A further 33
:03:57. > :04:02.people were evacuated from the building, no one was injured.
:04:03. > :04:12.Good afternoon, a rather wet look to the afternoon. Some places seeing
:04:13. > :04:19.good spells, but a fair few showers across western parts. One or two
:04:20. > :04:24.showers making it through eastwards. It will be quite windy across
:04:25. > :04:30.central and southern parts of the wind following across northern areas
:04:31. > :04:34.as the day progresses. Temperatures around 11-12dC at best.
:04:35. > :04:40.That is it for the moment. In the moment we will be discussing
:04:41. > :04:57.the events coming up at Holyrood. Almost half of Edinburgh's licensed
:04:58. > :05:02.saunas are to close after reset city refused to grant them licences.
:05:03. > :05:14.The closure of a chemical firm in Paisley.
:05:15. > :05:17.The Scottish Housing regulator says housing arrears have increased since
:05:18. > :05:21.the bedroom tax was abolished. A former Liberal Democrat MP has
:05:22. > :05:29.taken his seat in the House of Lords. Jeremy Purvis will now set as
:05:30. > :05:33.Lord Purvis of Tweed. The cost of fuel bills raised the
:05:34. > :05:38.temperature in the House of Commons. I want better regulation
:05:39. > :05:44.and deals for consumers. ScottishPower are one of the latest
:05:45. > :05:50.firms to announce price rises. Finally, Jack Straw is to stand down
:05:51. > :05:55.as an MP at the next general election.
:05:56. > :06:02.So, if that was the week that was, let's turn our attention to the Week
:06:03. > :06:05.Ahead. My guests today, Alan Roden,
:06:06. > :06:14.Political Editor for the Daily Mail here in Scotland and the freelance
:06:15. > :06:19.journalist Pennie Taylor. Let's take a look through a couple of the
:06:20. > :06:23.stories in the newspapers. Lots of coverage of Grangemouth with the
:06:24. > :06:32.Sunday Herald saying there are details of the secret deal done by
:06:33. > :06:36.Alex Salmond to save Grangemouth. He had a secret meeting to see if
:06:37. > :06:40.another company could purchase the plant. There seems to be praise for
:06:41. > :06:46.the first Minister's handling of the situation. He is dealing with the
:06:47. > :06:51.day-to-day issues of a crisis like this. He put the constitutional
:06:52. > :06:58.argument on hold for a few days but was helped by the UK government in
:06:59. > :07:05.this. This proves we are Better Together know with both sides coming
:07:06. > :07:08.together to encourage this deal. Neither side was making political
:07:09. > :07:12.points and seemed to be coming together for the national interest.
:07:13. > :07:17.They definitely seems to have taken that decision to leave the
:07:18. > :07:21.referendum to one side. Looking at the coverage in the papers today and
:07:22. > :07:29.through the week, Alex Salmond has come out of it very much the vector,
:07:30. > :07:38.the white hat, if you like. How did the workers come out of it? They are
:07:39. > :07:43.immensely relieved and I find it personally astonishing that people
:07:44. > :07:47.can say it is the media's fault that the union movement has come out of
:07:48. > :07:53.this badly, because I think all the coverage through the week would
:07:54. > :08:05.indicate that the Utah that the union made was one that the workers
:08:06. > :08:13.wanted. -- U-turn. How do Ineos look at the end of this week? The union
:08:14. > :08:18.where worse by far. The mess this up and let the workers almost over the
:08:19. > :08:21.cliff and need to have a look at themselves and learn some lessons
:08:22. > :08:30.because I do not think workers will thank the union for what has
:08:31. > :08:34.happened. I would suggest the events of this week show more than ever
:08:35. > :08:38.that we need a strong union movement in Scotland to represent the
:08:39. > :08:43.interests of workers up against companies like Ineos but the
:08:44. > :08:47.implication is we need intelligent union intervention and not the kind
:08:48. > :08:53.of macho approach we have seen this layout. Dennis Canon felt the union
:08:54. > :09:01.were working with one hand behind their back. -- Dennis Canavan. If
:09:02. > :09:07.there's ever a time when you need a union that is level-headed, this was
:09:08. > :09:11.then but instead they read from the 1970s textbook and went ahead with
:09:12. > :09:19.the barnstorming approach that did not work out and have left the
:09:20. > :09:23.workers in a much worse situation. Let me turn to the Sunday express or
:09:24. > :09:36.have an interesting story saying the first Minister was the result of --
:09:37. > :09:40.recipient of US phone bugging. The suggestion is that America seems to
:09:41. > :09:50.know in advance of the announcement being made a couple of years ago
:09:51. > :09:55.that Al-Megrahi was being released. I think if I was Alex Salmond I
:09:56. > :10:00.would feel proud to be worthy of being bugged by the Americans. If
:10:01. > :10:06.the new, what I don't understand is what difference it made to any
:10:07. > :10:12.outcome, what is the point? Forewarned is forearmed but it seems
:10:13. > :10:17.to be a widespread practice? There's some wishful thinking with the idea
:10:18. > :10:23.that Alex Salmond is in the top 35 world leaders is ridiculous, but it
:10:24. > :10:31.is going to dominate issues in Europe for the week ahead. A
:10:32. > :10:42.brand-new MSP being sworn in on Thursday. What do you make of the
:10:43. > :10:48.Rectory in Baz Luhrmann? -- victory in Dunfermline. It is the second
:10:49. > :10:58.biggest majority Labour has in Hollywood now. They are undoubtedly
:10:59. > :11:01.had the best campaign. The first Minister himself took to the streets
:11:02. > :11:10.on the final day but they still lost heavily. There were special
:11:11. > :11:18.circumstances surrounding this and it is always difficult to read too
:11:19. > :11:22.much into a by-election. They always say you cannot draw a conclusion
:11:23. > :11:28.about the referendum from a by-election result but I imagine
:11:29. > :11:35.Grangemouth, not too far from Dunfermline, will have had in impact
:11:36. > :11:43.on how people voted that day. The interesting impact for me was the
:11:44. > :11:53.growth of UKIP. That causes me some pause for reflection. They got twice
:11:54. > :11:57.as many votes as the Greens got. UKIP are not the political force in
:11:58. > :12:03.Scotland as in England but they will dominate the agenda down south and
:12:04. > :12:09.they could scrape in with an MEP in Scotland. They are on course to save
:12:10. > :12:14.their deposit sometimes. The Liberal Democrat vote went down
:12:15. > :12:20.substantially. It does not look as if there's any resurgence for them
:12:21. > :12:26.any soon? They are going nowhere and Willie Rennie was very popular in
:12:27. > :12:34.that area but it did not translate into votes. That seems to be the
:12:35. > :12:44.picture, that people are still unhappy about being in coalition? I
:12:45. > :12:47.think very much so, across Scotland, it is anecdotal that people who
:12:48. > :12:52.voted Liberal Democrat are feeling pretty much betrayed.
:12:53. > :12:59.What about the Conservatives? They will point to the vote going up by
:13:00. > :13:04.1% with the turnout of 42%, which is not very many votes. Is there any
:13:05. > :13:11.sign they are doing anything other than flat-lining? Ruth Davidson is
:13:12. > :13:18.doing a decent job but they are going nowhere and are continuing.
:13:19. > :13:22.Success for higher will be doubling the seats and going from one to two
:13:23. > :13:29.but anything other than that will be a disaster. Do either of you get any
:13:30. > :13:38.sense about what this can tell us about the referendum? It will be a
:13:39. > :13:42.clash between the Scottish Titans. Although Labour are saying this was
:13:43. > :13:48.partly a rejection of independence, it did not feel like that. The SNP,
:13:49. > :13:55.who have a formidable election machine, they knew not to discuss
:13:56. > :13:59.that. They talked about local schools which is a massive issue in
:14:00. > :14:02.Dunfermline. They could have done a lot better.
:14:03. > :14:09.Thank you to you both. That's all from us - I'll be back at the usual
:14:10. > :14:14.time next week. Just before we go, a reminder of Newsnight Scotland's
:14:15. > :14:16.special debate tomorrow with a look at higher education in the context
:14:17. > :14:19.of the referendum. Goodbye.