:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:42. > :00:44.the war path, over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls
:00:45. > :00:49.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's "resurgent",
:00:50. > :00:51.though the polls do not show it. We will be talking to his right-hand
:00:52. > :00:55.woman, Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman.
:00:56. > :00:59.From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage won an award this week for
:01:00. > :01:04.being a political insurgent. We will be talking to the UKIP leader.
:01:05. > :01:10.And Harriet hates, hates, hates Page three. She wants rid of it, but what
:01:11. > :01:24.do you think? We sent Adam out with some balls. It is a better harmless.
:01:25. > :01:28.What do you think of people who feel it is a exploitive?
:01:29. > :01:32.And on Sunday Politics Scotland... As BAE announce job losses from its
:01:33. > :01:35.yards at Govan, Scotstoun and Rosyth, we ask could this be the way
:01:36. > :01:53.ahead for the shipbuilding industry in Scotland?
:01:54. > :01:59.Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick
:02:00. > :02:02.Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. First, the talks with Iran in
:02:03. > :02:12.Geneva. They ended last night without agreement despite hopes of a
:02:13. > :02:16.breakthrough. America and its allies didn't think Iran was prepared to go
:02:17. > :02:19.far enough to freeze its nuclear programme. But some progress has
:02:20. > :02:22.been made and there's to be another meeting in ten days' time, though at
:02:23. > :02:25.a lower level. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had this
:02:26. > :02:30.to say a little earlier. On the question of, or will it happen in
:02:31. > :02:38.the next few weeks? There is a good chance of that. We will be trying
:02:39. > :02:46.again on 20th, 21st of November and negotiators will be trying again. We
:02:47. > :02:49.will keep an enormous amount of energy and persistence behind
:02:50. > :02:57.solving this. Will that be a deal which will please everyone? No, it
:02:58. > :03:01.will not. Compromises will need to be made. I had discussions with
:03:02. > :03:05.Israeli ministers yesterday and put the case for the kind of deal we are
:03:06. > :03:10.looking the case for the kind of deal we are
:03:11. > :03:16.interests of the whole world, including
:03:17. > :03:16.interests of the whole world, the world, to reach a diplomatic
:03:17. > :03:24.agreement we can be confident in in this issue. This otherwise will
:03:25. > :03:27.threaten the world with nuclear proliferation and conflict in the
:03:28. > :03:32.future. The interesting thing about this is that it seems
:03:33. > :03:38.future. The interesting thing about prepared to go far enough over the
:03:39. > :03:51.Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor it is building. The people who took
:03:52. > :03:58.the toughest line - the French. France has always had a pretty tough
:03:59. > :04:02.line on Iran. They see it as a disruptive influence in Lebanon. I
:04:03. > :04:06.am reasonably optimistic a deal will be done later this month when the
:04:07. > :04:12.talks reconvene. Western economic sanctions have had such an impact on
:04:13. > :04:21.Iran domestic league. They have pushed inflation up to 40%.
:04:22. > :04:27.Dashes-macro domestically. The new president had a campaign pledge
:04:28. > :04:33.saying, I will deal with sanctions. I actually think, by the end of this
:04:34. > :04:37.year, we will see progress in these talks. Should we be optimistic? The
:04:38. > :04:44.year, we will see progress in these next round of talks will be at
:04:45. > :04:50.official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which
:04:51. > :04:55.has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly
:04:56. > :05:05.defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to
:05:06. > :05:14.go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they
:05:15. > :05:23.cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows
:05:24. > :05:28.the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that
:05:29. > :05:35.with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the
:05:36. > :05:42.Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could
:05:43. > :05:50.still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are
:05:51. > :05:54.interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are
:05:55. > :06:00.trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who
:06:01. > :06:06.are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is
:06:07. > :06:12.that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is
:06:13. > :06:20.prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about
:06:21. > :06:25.Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who
:06:26. > :06:30.is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel
:06:31. > :06:33.Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card
:06:34. > :06:37.list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp
:06:38. > :06:46.rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November
:06:47. > :06:50.the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt
:06:51. > :06:54.to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the
:06:55. > :07:00.Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all
:07:01. > :07:05.of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again - you
:07:06. > :07:10.talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.
:07:11. > :07:17.The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have
:07:18. > :07:22.not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are
:07:23. > :07:26.doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures
:07:27. > :07:31.you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the
:07:32. > :07:35.Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a
:07:36. > :07:40.rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly
:07:41. > :07:48.opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel
:07:49. > :07:57.Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had
:07:58. > :08:00.to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it
:08:01. > :08:05.will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is
:08:06. > :08:13.now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you
:08:14. > :08:16.say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on
:08:17. > :08:22.Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband
:08:23. > :08:26.offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on
:08:27. > :08:32.Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading
:08:33. > :08:36.towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I
:08:37. > :08:41.cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get
:08:42. > :08:45.over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there
:08:46. > :08:53.will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are
:08:54. > :08:58.going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which
:08:59. > :09:02.constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly.
:09:03. > :09:07.Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a
:09:08. > :09:13.realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will
:09:14. > :09:18.have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the
:09:19. > :09:24.May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as
:09:25. > :09:29.well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.
:09:30. > :09:39.Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has
:09:40. > :09:43.tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.
:09:44. > :09:49.The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP
:09:50. > :09:53.conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party
:09:54. > :09:59.is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with
:10:00. > :10:06.the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be
:10:07. > :10:12.joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's
:10:13. > :10:17.accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that
:10:18. > :10:25.would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no
:10:26. > :10:33.risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.
:10:34. > :10:40.There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this. We
:10:41. > :10:46.will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will
:10:47. > :10:50.have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the
:10:51. > :11:00.world and they will create jobs. The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi
:11:01. > :11:07.and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed
:11:08. > :11:12.concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we
:11:13. > :11:22.should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this
:11:23. > :11:28.a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was
:11:29. > :11:33.a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made
:11:34. > :11:38.the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say
:11:39. > :11:42.is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big
:11:43. > :11:47.businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we
:11:48. > :11:51.did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they
:11:52. > :11:56.wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,
:11:57. > :12:01.there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what
:12:02. > :12:06.the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation
:12:07. > :12:12.is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It
:12:13. > :12:18.depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are
:12:19. > :12:23.beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses
:12:24. > :12:27.are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any
:12:28. > :12:36.potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does
:12:37. > :12:43.repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the
:12:44. > :12:47.Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions
:12:48. > :12:56.to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1975,
:12:57. > :13:00.the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a
:13:01. > :13:03.renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered
:13:04. > :13:10.around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will
:13:11. > :13:17.happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by
:13:18. > :13:20.Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but
:13:21. > :13:24.they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going
:13:25. > :13:30.to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ
:13:31. > :13:34.them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will
:13:35. > :13:39.be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to
:13:40. > :13:52.break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.
:13:53. > :14:08.-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am
:14:09. > :14:13.not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the
:14:14. > :14:19.referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.
:14:20. > :14:23.Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining
:14:24. > :14:28.sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29
:14:29. > :14:39.million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is
:14:40. > :14:50.technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open
:14:51. > :15:01.door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29
:15:02. > :15:11.million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29
:15:12. > :15:18.million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million
:15:19. > :15:22.people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will
:15:23. > :15:29.do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70
:15:30. > :15:37.million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say
:15:38. > :15:41.that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 74
:15:42. > :15:46.without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another
:15:47. > :15:50.massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such
:15:51. > :16:01.a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your
:16:02. > :16:04.anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was
:16:05. > :16:09.representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it
:16:10. > :16:12.was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place
:16:13. > :16:17.this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won
:16:18. > :16:20.the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that
:16:21. > :16:24.doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put
:16:25. > :16:29.together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows
:16:30. > :16:34.that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped
:16:35. > :16:37.it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we
:16:38. > :16:41.are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.
:16:42. > :16:46.Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible
:16:47. > :16:51.and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and
:16:52. > :16:53.crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and
:16:54. > :16:56.subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration
:16:57. > :17:00.issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the
:17:01. > :17:04.European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians
:17:05. > :17:08.flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.
:17:09. > :17:13.Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good
:17:14. > :17:17.for you, it will stir things up? If you say to people in poor countries,
:17:18. > :17:22.you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system,
:17:23. > :17:26.claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You
:17:27. > :17:31.are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if
:17:32. > :17:35.only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk
:17:36. > :17:37.and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European
:17:38. > :17:42.election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.
:17:43. > :17:45.The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his
:17:46. > :17:49.leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He
:17:50. > :17:52.bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,
:17:53. > :17:57.delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech
:17:58. > :17:59.of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and
:18:00. > :18:05.promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The
:18:06. > :18:12.next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about
:18:13. > :18:18.how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the
:18:19. > :18:28.Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and
:18:29. > :18:31.character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between
:18:32. > :18:37.me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was
:18:38. > :18:41.Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the
:18:42. > :18:45.tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the
:18:46. > :18:50.tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the
:18:51. > :18:54.bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,
:18:55. > :18:57.here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime
:18:58. > :19:06.Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who
:19:07. > :19:12.repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party
:19:13. > :19:18.faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's
:19:19. > :19:26.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the
:19:27. > :19:31.bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off
:19:32. > :19:35.Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was
:19:36. > :19:40.stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think
:19:41. > :19:44.that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be
:19:45. > :19:47.justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually
:19:48. > :19:52.help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes
:19:53. > :19:57.that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being
:19:58. > :20:00.incentivised by the bedroom tax, so basically if you are a council
:20:01. > :20:05.tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,
:20:06. > :20:09.then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.
:20:10. > :20:13.That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96% of
:20:14. > :20:16.the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a
:20:17. > :20:19.smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore
:20:20. > :20:24.they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one
:20:25. > :20:30.spare bedroom, they are hit by ?700 a year extra to pay and that is
:20:31. > :20:34.completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for
:20:35. > :20:39.their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not
:20:40. > :20:43.depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?
:20:44. > :20:48.Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.
:20:49. > :20:53.What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of
:20:54. > :20:58.Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've
:20:59. > :21:02.come off benefits, of the 233,000 affected, it's about 11%. These
:21:03. > :21:06.people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit
:21:07. > :21:10.in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits
:21:11. > :21:14.who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them
:21:15. > :21:19.will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find
:21:20. > :21:23.work, or who find work where it's low-paid and need help with their
:21:24. > :21:27.rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their
:21:28. > :21:30.family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to
:21:31. > :21:35.move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,
:21:36. > :21:39.or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are
:21:40. > :21:44.low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because
:21:45. > :21:47.of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was
:21:48. > :21:51.commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change
:21:52. > :21:54.and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,
:21:55. > :21:58.some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have
:21:59. > :22:00.waited until you have got the independent research, that
:22:01. > :22:03.independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In
:22:04. > :22:08.fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their
:22:09. > :22:12.independent research before they bought into effect something and
:22:13. > :22:18.imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have
:22:19. > :22:22.known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could
:22:23. > :22:26.have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into
:22:27. > :22:30.smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from
:22:31. > :22:33.councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move
:22:34. > :22:37.into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should
:22:38. > :22:40.have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are
:22:41. > :22:44.absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into
:22:45. > :22:48.rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you
:22:49. > :22:53.can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies
:22:54. > :22:56.to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The
:22:57. > :23:01.justification for it, which is people will move, is completely
:23:02. > :23:06.bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare
:23:07. > :23:10.reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's
:23:11. > :23:15.welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are
:23:16. > :23:18.you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own
:23:19. > :23:21.supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job
:23:22. > :23:26.actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said
:23:27. > :23:30.that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a
:23:31. > :23:34.young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a
:23:35. > :23:38.job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as
:23:39. > :23:43.somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of
:23:44. > :23:46.unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue
:23:47. > :23:51.about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need
:23:52. > :23:54.support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't
:23:55. > :24:00.have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts
:24:01. > :24:04.the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --
:24:05. > :24:08.substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of
:24:09. > :24:13.benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour
:24:14. > :24:18.must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,
:24:19. > :24:23.redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and
:24:24. > :24:26.the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off, we
:24:27. > :24:29.are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me
:24:30. > :24:34.saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think
:24:35. > :24:37.that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've
:24:38. > :24:41.been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take
:24:42. > :24:47.them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we
:24:48. > :24:51.showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles
:24:52. > :24:54.have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the
:24:55. > :24:59.Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own
:25:00. > :25:03.personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to
:25:04. > :25:08.disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody
:25:09. > :25:11.else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you
:25:12. > :25:17.the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the
:25:18. > :25:23.Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...
:25:24. > :25:25.But you're... All those who've won their seats against the
:25:26. > :25:30.Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't
:25:31. > :25:35.always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,
:25:36. > :25:41.the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and
:25:42. > :25:47.these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy
:25:48. > :25:50.grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,
:25:51. > :25:54.private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming
:25:55. > :25:58.year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow
:25:59. > :26:01.faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was
:26:02. > :26:06.flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow?
:26:07. > :26:11.Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit
:26:12. > :26:14.on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding
:26:15. > :26:18.the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that
:26:19. > :26:22.what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the
:26:23. > :26:25.recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I
:26:26. > :26:33.understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are
:26:34. > :26:36.no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the
:26:37. > :26:39.growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and
:26:40. > :26:44.living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next
:26:45. > :26:47.year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to
:26:48. > :26:50.rise with that amount of growth. What do you do then? We have not
:26:51. > :26:54.switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way
:26:55. > :26:58.along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and
:26:59. > :27:02.we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic
:27:03. > :27:07.policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns
:27:08. > :27:10.people have and recognise that they are struggling with the
:27:11. > :27:15.cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of
:27:16. > :27:21.living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I
:27:22. > :27:25.hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,
:27:26. > :27:28.for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are
:27:29. > :27:33.worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader
:27:34. > :27:35.measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that
:27:36. > :27:41.decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the
:27:42. > :27:47.country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living
:27:48. > :27:51.standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line?
:27:52. > :27:52.There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National
:27:53. > :27:57.Health Service, about the problems Health Service, about the problems
:27:58. > :28:01.that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I
:28:02. > :28:07.can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other
:28:08. > :28:12.question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed
:28:13. > :28:17.Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks
:28:18. > :28:21.like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will
:28:22. > :28:25.a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign
:28:26. > :28:29.up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter
:28:30. > :28:32.does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the
:28:33. > :28:37.newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My
:28:38. > :28:40.question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do
:28:41. > :28:45.with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the
:28:46. > :28:48.wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The
:28:49. > :28:52.newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,
:28:53. > :28:57.Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are
:28:58. > :29:01.setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it
:29:02. > :29:05.is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,
:29:06. > :29:09.we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is
:29:10. > :29:12.that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really
:29:13. > :29:17.turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll
:29:18. > :29:21.sort things out, leave it to us, then they have sorted things out but
:29:22. > :29:25.a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is
:29:26. > :29:28.check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent
:29:29. > :29:32.system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee
:29:33. > :29:35.things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that.
:29:36. > :29:40.That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't
:29:41. > :29:48.force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by
:29:49. > :29:51.Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick
:29:52. > :29:55.with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution
:29:56. > :29:59.or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been
:30:00. > :30:05.dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That's 43
:30:06. > :30:09.years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent
:30:10. > :30:27.Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We
:30:28. > :30:41.have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What
:30:42. > :30:48.do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and
:30:49. > :31:00.exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go? Go.
:31:01. > :31:15.I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your
:31:16. > :31:21.mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men
:31:22. > :31:34.get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.
:31:35. > :31:43.Dashes-macro know what your age. Page three girls, should they stay
:31:44. > :31:47.or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page
:31:48. > :31:50.or go? I am not bothered. There are three of the Sun newspaper every
:31:51. > :31:59.day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40
:32:00. > :32:07.years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been
:32:08. > :32:12.long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to
:32:13. > :32:18.encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my
:32:19. > :32:25.children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see
:32:26. > :32:31.the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can
:32:32. > :32:44.turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I
:32:45. > :32:50.think the council should do something about their car parks!
:32:51. > :32:59.Mother nature, the human body. It should stay. Is some people like it,
:33:00. > :33:03.that is fine. I have nothing against it. You know what has surprised me,
:33:04. > :33:21.lots of women saying In Maginot my grandfather opening
:33:22. > :33:41.the Palin seen media. What do you think about people who
:33:42. > :33:57.say it should be banned? They are idiots. The Ph.D. On Friday was from
:33:58. > :34:10.Bedford. What you think of our decision to be on page three? Did
:34:11. > :34:19.she make Bedford proud? I think it would be pretty hard to make Bedford
:34:20. > :34:32.Road! So, easily victory for those who think it should stay. Most
:34:33. > :34:38.people do not appear to clear. I have not argued for it to be
:34:39. > :34:52.banned. I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. I do not think the
:34:53. > :34:57.content of newspapers should be subject to subject to anything out
:34:58. > :35:08.with the laws of the land. However, as someone from outer space arrived
:35:09. > :35:16.in the 21st-century and saw that as the depiction of women, they would
:35:17. > :35:23.think that they did not have much of a role in society to play. But the
:35:24. > :35:26.newspaper does not longer have the political importance of the seals
:35:27. > :35:36.that it had. Are people not just voting with their feet enemy, the
:35:37. > :35:42.marketers sorting this out? Until such time as they do not have this
:35:43. > :35:53.any more, I am entitled to my view that it is outdated and wrong. I am
:35:54. > :35:58.happy to establish you do not want to ban it, although I think some of
:35:59. > :36:03.your words many years ago did imply that, but do you think people should
:36:04. > :36:10.boycott the newspaper? No, I have never said it should be banned. I
:36:11. > :36:19.have not cold for an official boycott either. The women's
:36:20. > :36:25.movement, of which I am part of, this is not about a politician
:36:26. > :36:30.trying to suppress the press, we see that women can do better than taking
:36:31. > :36:42.their clothes off and flashing their knickers in the newspaper. Why do
:36:43. > :36:47.you not do something about it? I am, by speaking out about it and
:36:48. > :36:54.supporting the campaign is for it to be got rid of. To viewers, would you
:36:55. > :37:01.like to say to them, as long as this is in the newspaper, you should not
:37:02. > :37:06.buy it. I am not arguing about a boycott of the newspaper. I am
:37:07. > :37:11.saying to them, wake up to the role of women in society, which you
:37:12. > :37:15.should be doing. They have changed it industrially, which is where
:37:16. > :37:18.Ripper murder came from, why can they not in this country? -- report
:37:19. > :37:29.Murdoch. Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday
:37:30. > :37:31.Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme...
:37:32. > :37:35.The Clyde shipyards are saved from closure, but what is the future for
:37:36. > :37:44.an industry heavily dependent on military contracts? The politicians
:37:45. > :37:48.say the shipbuilding industry must diversify to prosper. But how
:37:49. > :37:52.realistic is that? And how much influence do you have
:37:53. > :37:58.over politicians? A think tank says decision makers need to listen to a
:37:59. > :38:06.wider range of opinions. If you have a small group just the elite of
:38:07. > :38:11.society, making it policy on their own views, and do not engage with
:38:12. > :38:15.the wider population, you get bad policy.
:38:16. > :38:19.For shipyard workers on the Clyde and Rosyth and their families it has
:38:20. > :38:22.been a difficult week. 800 of them will lose their jobs and, of course,
:38:23. > :38:25.there has been furious debate about whether the contracts for the new
:38:26. > :38:29.global combat ships will come here if there is a Yes vote in the
:38:30. > :38:32.referendum. To help provide workers with future job certainty, there
:38:33. > :38:34.have been calls to diversify the industry and emulate Norway's
:38:35. > :38:43.renaissance in shipbuilding. With a look at whether that is realistic,
:38:44. > :38:49.here is Andrew Kerr. The soul of the clay this week has been one of
:38:50. > :38:57.realism, the other than the spear. -- this beer.
:38:58. > :39:04.But what about the aspirational view of moving on and relying on
:39:05. > :39:14.something other than just contracts from the Royal Navy? What
:39:15. > :39:22.discussions has she had about diversification of work on the River
:39:23. > :39:26.Clyde? We need to diversify, with nearly procurement as part of that,
:39:27. > :39:32.but looking also at how we could improve exports. There are other
:39:33. > :39:38.countries outwith Scotland to do this very well. The Conservative
:39:39. > :39:54.leader asked what assistance there was for them to compete. Soon, we
:39:55. > :40:01.may have do rely on contract out with the Royal Navy. If you wanted
:40:02. > :40:08.to go into the civilian market, you need hundreds of millions of
:40:09. > :40:14.investment to get the right tools into these yards. Secondly, you
:40:15. > :40:20.require a very good cooperative relationship between unions and
:40:21. > :40:27.management. Thirdly, you have to get the right kind of shape, which is
:40:28. > :40:32.much more difficult. Even in its heyday, the industry went through
:40:33. > :40:39.its ups and downs. It is certainly a while since big non-Navy vessels
:40:40. > :40:46.were launched on the quiet. This is the last civilian shipbuilder on the
:40:47. > :40:55.Clyde. It is hard to believe that the once powerful shipbuilding
:40:56. > :41:10.industry had been reduced to just one yard. There have been civilian
:41:11. > :41:13.shipping built here. There were two ferries built for Caledonian
:41:14. > :41:22.MacBrayne. Unfortunately, the companies latest model is getting
:41:23. > :41:26.built in Germany. We need shipyards which are resilient. When the market
:41:27. > :41:32.is not in demand, they need to be able to be resilient in terms of
:41:33. > :41:36.doing shipped rapier, ship maintenance and if you look at other
:41:37. > :41:44.industries, the likes of wind farm installation. That is a big ask and
:41:45. > :41:49.experts agree, but normally is being trumpeted as a place which Scotland
:41:50. > :41:54.could emulate. 100 ships were built there last year. They have these
:41:55. > :42:03.special is building oil supply vessels and a large customer base.
:42:04. > :42:08.Could we do it? It is difficult. It is not something you could not do,
:42:09. > :42:16.but it is difficult. It requires long-term planning. Shipbuilding
:42:17. > :42:22.moves enlarge cycles, so there is a need for several different
:42:23. > :42:27.measures, both from the government and from the private sector.
:42:28. > :42:31.Professor Hagan said that determination to succeed means the
:42:32. > :42:37.yards union and government must work together on a long-term plan. Eight
:42:38. > :42:43.to claim 20 years. The Navy work may be sailing down the river, but
:42:44. > :42:48.people here will have two cooperate here to recapture some of the past
:42:49. > :42:51.glories of the Clyde. With me now in the studio is the
:42:52. > :42:55.Labour MP for Glasgow South West, Ian Davidson and the SNP's Stewart
:42:56. > :43:02.Maxwell. And from our Edinburgh studio, the Liberal Democrat leader,
:43:03. > :43:14.Willie Rennie. This debate is now being seen through the prism of the
:43:15. > :43:19.independence debate. The defence minister said exactly the opposite.
:43:20. > :43:22.He said contracts could quite acceptably carry on in an
:43:23. > :43:29.independent Scotland after a yes vote. Clearly, what Alistair Nichols
:43:30. > :43:35.has been doing this week as scaremongering them into voting no,
:43:36. > :43:44.on the false promise that this would offer job security. This was not a
:43:45. > :43:47.word decision. This was the decision of the company along with the
:43:48. > :43:53.government. The best place in the only place from 2014 on words to
:43:54. > :44:05.build complex warships will be the Clyde. You have talked about a break
:44:06. > :44:10.clause about the type 26 frigates if there is a yes vote. How does that
:44:11. > :44:17.represent the best interests of your constituents? There has not been any
:44:18. > :44:22.contract awarded. It would've been a great step forward of the ad been
:44:23. > :44:27.awarded. Talks I have had with ministers and the Ministry of the
:44:28. > :44:34.defence, they want to take the risk out of this. And this was discussed
:44:35. > :44:39.with the unions when I put this forward, was to have a break
:44:40. > :44:42.clause, that in the unlikely event of Scotland voting for separation,
:44:43. > :44:50.they would be able to pool this back. You are giving comfort to
:44:51. > :44:56.both. No contract has been awarded. Under my proposal, the shipyards in
:44:57. > :45:01.Scotland would of had the contract, but the Ministry of Defence would
:45:02. > :45:08.have the comfort of in the event of separation, they would have the
:45:09. > :45:11.choice of pulling this back. You should be not representing the
:45:12. > :45:22.Ministry of Defence, you should be representing Scottish workers. The
:45:23. > :45:26.problem is that the MoD and the UK Government have quite deliberately
:45:27. > :45:33.decided that the contract will not be awarded until after the
:45:34. > :45:40.referendum decision is known. Quite clearly. Would you recommend a break
:45:41. > :45:44.clause? We should get the design properly constructed before we award
:45:45. > :45:50.the contract. That would not be until after the referendum. The 2014
:45:51. > :45:53.referendum is not the date when independence would be declared,
:45:54. > :45:57.though. But we would know when we were going. Whether we were going to
:45:58. > :46:04.be an independent country or not. The rest of the UK could decide
:46:05. > :46:09.whether to continue on its policy of building warships outside of its
:46:10. > :46:13.entries. Would you encourage the MoD to continue building warships in
:46:14. > :46:16.Scotland? If I was lucky enough to be a politician in an independent
:46:17. > :46:22.Scotland, I would fight for Scotland. But I would be dealt a
:46:23. > :46:25.very difficult hands. I would not be in a very strong position because
:46:26. > :46:29.the UK does not build a warships outside of its boundary and never
:46:30. > :46:34.has since the Second World War. Should Maxwell is wrong when he says
:46:35. > :46:36.Portsmouth will be closed. It will not be closed until after the
:46:37. > :46:41.referendum, so the shipbuilding capacity in England will remain and
:46:42. > :46:46.could easily be built back up again. His approach is very complacent. It
:46:47. > :46:51.is not serving the yards on the Clyde very well. The point is that
:46:52. > :46:54.without this Article 346 exemption which is used by the Scottish
:46:55. > :47:00.Government, the UK Government, to allow them to just build a big
:47:01. > :47:04.warships in the UK, that those contracts would have to go out to
:47:05. > :47:09.tender, which would be Scotland, Scotland Yard would have to
:47:10. > :47:15.tender... That is not the case. It is shameful of politicians who are
:47:16. > :47:21.trying to pretend that Article 346 says that you must build warships
:47:22. > :47:26.exempt from this procurement build outside your boundaries. That is not
:47:27. > :47:29.what it says. The decision would be for the UK Government in the
:47:30. > :47:32.circumstances to decide where is the best place to build it. It does net
:47:33. > :47:36.send you should now get in your own territory.
:47:37. > :47:49.# It does not say you should build it in your own territory. You cannot
:47:50. > :47:56.guarantee that. There is nothing there that you can guarantee. I look
:47:57. > :47:58.at the defenceman Mr Hu said this and Philip Hammond, the Secretary of
:47:59. > :48:01.State for defence in the UK Government, who are repeatedly,
:48:02. > :48:09.repeatedly on Westminster, would he cancel the order -- who was asked
:48:10. > :48:14.repeatedly. He sensibly refused to say. Yellow like refused to say he
:48:15. > :48:19.would cancel the order because he has not placed one. He has been
:48:20. > :48:27.quite deliberate in placing it -- in not placing it. They refused to
:48:28. > :48:33.place it. What we have to understand is that even if he waited be frowned
:48:34. > :48:39.through the legalities of it, it is inconceivable that a UK Government,
:48:40. > :48:44.the longer representing Scotland, would then actually placed orders in
:48:45. > :48:50.Scotland. Why is it inconceivable? Scotland would not become a threat.
:48:51. > :48:58.They would have responsibility to protect their own voters and
:48:59. > :49:03.electorate. They spend money overseas, only when they have
:49:04. > :49:07.decided that it is not something that they want as a sovereign
:49:08. > :49:12.capability. The reality is that if the placed this order on the Clyde,
:49:13. > :49:17.it would kill off Portsmouth. The UK would then have no further
:49:18. > :49:22.capability for building complex warships. They have said that they
:49:23. > :49:26.want to have that. The only way of having it is keeping the capability
:49:27. > :49:30.by giving the type 26 contract to Portsmouth or indeed somewhere else
:49:31. > :49:33.in the remaining United Kingdom. Is it time for cooperation between the
:49:34. > :49:43.two governments to try to secure some kind of diversified future for
:49:44. > :49:47.the shipyards? Absolutely. We must move to a plan B. We have to look at
:49:48. > :49:53.the new future for the shipyards. This is a wake-up call for everybody
:49:54. > :49:55.to say, what is the plan B? It is a long-term prospect, we have to put
:49:56. > :50:02.one in place to ensure proper diversification. We have military
:50:03. > :50:07.contracts but we also have other contracts that we can pursue. We can
:50:08. > :50:10.diversified into the renewable and oil industry. There can be a bright
:50:11. > :50:15.future for the shipyards but it cannot just be waiting on Ministry
:50:16. > :50:21.of Defence contracts all the time. Is no way that beaten for shipyards?
:50:22. > :50:35.It was in your piece before our interview. -- is no way the beaten
:50:36. > :50:38.-- is Norway the beacon? They have companies that put their orders into
:50:39. > :50:44.the Norwegian yards which helps Norway, so Norway is not necessarily
:50:45. > :50:48.example we will be able to follow. Is it time for intergovernmental
:50:49. > :50:54.cooperation to secure something of diversified future? Of course. There
:50:55. > :50:59.has been much work and talk about diverse occasion. It is quite
:51:00. > :51:03.difficult to actually match military capability with civilian
:51:04. > :51:06.capability, it is not an easy thing to match together into one shipyard
:51:07. > :51:12.and that is why the shipyards have found it incredibly difficult and at
:51:13. > :51:19.last. The SNP's site the fuel tankers. But the British shipyards
:51:20. > :51:28.did not even compete for that contract. It was Korea in a much
:51:29. > :51:33.better position. -- ESN P cite the fuel tankers. The point that was
:51:34. > :51:36.being made during the week was that it was the 40th anniversary of Margo
:51:37. > :51:39.MacDonald winning the government by-election. At that .1 of the
:51:40. > :51:44.issues was the future of the shipyards. That investigation of the
:51:45. > :51:48.year does not seem to have worked. I have been involved with successive
:51:49. > :51:52.management and union in the Clyde about the question of diversified
:51:53. > :51:58.agent. It has never worked. It is important to look at Norway. When
:51:59. > :52:02.Norway has got five frigates built in Spain, they have submarines built
:52:03. > :52:06.and designed in Germany, they have just ordered a logistics ship from
:52:07. > :52:11.Korea. The boots that the build in Norway, they are not really ships,
:52:12. > :52:15.most of them are very small. Many could fit inside the studio. That is
:52:16. > :52:21.not the scale of the shipbuilding industry and indeed the holes are
:52:22. > :52:24.overwhelmingly built abroad and then taken to Norway. We are not
:52:25. > :52:31.comparing like with like. I'd be that without a core MoD order book,
:52:32. > :52:38.there will be little opportunity. -- and fear that without a core MoD
:52:39. > :52:42.order bit. Joint procurement is the norm across the world. We could be
:52:43. > :52:47.involved with that. That would be sensible, especially the type 26,
:52:48. > :52:52.and MoD orders military hardware from all around the road. They spent
:52:53. > :52:57.$3.5 billion in the last five years. The fact is, buying things abroad is
:52:58. > :53:01.normal. Joint procurement is normal. The best ways to build ships in the
:53:02. > :53:07.British Isles is in the Clyde and that should be the future. Thank you
:53:08. > :53:10.very much for joining us. Here's a question - how much
:53:11. > :53:13.influence do you feel you have over the decisions made by politicians?
:53:14. > :53:16.Most local services are provided by councils, yet typically turnout in
:53:17. > :53:21.elections for them are very low - around 32%. How much of that is down
:53:22. > :53:24.to apathy, or is it a feeling that no matter who you vote for, your
:53:25. > :53:27.ballot will make little difference to the decisions those elected will
:53:28. > :53:30.take? Increasing participation in the decisions that affect our lives
:53:31. > :53:34.has been occupying the thoughts of one think tank. So is this a problem
:53:35. > :53:38.just for politicians or should it concern us all?
:53:39. > :53:41.Scottish government plans to extend local democracy took a hit this week
:53:42. > :53:46.after ministers announced that they were to abandon the idea of directly
:53:47. > :53:49.elected health boards. The Health Secretary admitted that turnout for
:53:50. > :53:53.the election in one area was only 10%. Yet the idea behind this team
:53:54. > :53:57.was to give communities a greater say in how their health services are
:53:58. > :54:03.organised. So when did this attempt to involve the local community feel?
:54:04. > :54:06.How much say do voters in Scotland really want in the decisions? The
:54:07. > :54:09.Jimmy Reid Foundation is one organisation evaluating local
:54:10. > :54:13.democracy. It recently established a commission to look at how a wider
:54:14. > :54:17.range of opinions and experiences can be taken into account when it
:54:18. > :54:22.comes to policy-making decisions. A report from the commission, released
:54:23. > :54:27.today, says access by citizens to the political decision-making
:54:28. > :54:30.process is limited to the point of being nonexistent. Robert Mugabe
:54:31. > :54:33.nine, director of the Jimmy Reid Foundation, says they have noticed a
:54:34. > :54:38.worrying trend when it comes to who had influence in Scottish politics.
:54:39. > :54:42.What we discovered was that the 70% of the population who live on
:54:43. > :54:47.?25,000 or less per year only make up about the percent of the people
:54:48. > :54:50.who are invited to sit in public bodies are giving advice to
:54:51. > :54:53.parliamentary inquiries. This massive imbalance clearly suggested
:54:54. > :54:56.there was a problem in who was getting to influence politics and
:54:57. > :54:59.getting involved in the political process and so the commission is
:55:00. > :55:04.attempting to question how we can improve this situation. Professor
:55:05. > :55:06.Richard Crowley as an academic advisor to working group on
:55:07. > :55:09.strengthening local democracy. He said there needs to be wider
:55:10. > :55:15.engagement across layers of government. Review is that the
:55:16. > :55:19.capacity for local people to make decisions about matters which are
:55:20. > :55:21.specific to a given area is something that should be recognised,
:55:22. > :55:28.that there are a range of services were variation is appropriate and
:55:29. > :55:30.good and therefore we should recreate or create the opportunity
:55:31. > :55:37.for that to occur through the decisions that councils and local
:55:38. > :55:40.people make, maybe even at layers below local council but not that
:55:41. > :55:44.central government level. But is there a happy medium where citizens
:55:45. > :55:49.feel involved and politicians listen? Good Scotland pioneer a new
:55:50. > :55:53.way of thinking? This report, if it was accepted, to be one of the most
:55:54. > :55:56.radical changes in government we have seen in hundreds of years. The
:55:57. > :56:00.idea that the government becomes something which is done by people
:56:01. > :56:07.and not two people would be an enormous change in the way that we
:56:08. > :56:10.think about and understand politics. Chair of the Commission on Fair
:56:11. > :56:13.Access to Political Influence for the Jimmy Reid Foundation, Larry
:56:14. > :56:15.Flanagan, joins me now. Good afternoon. It is a fairly weighty
:56:16. > :56:19.book. You come to the inclusion that the political access to the decision
:56:20. > :56:24.making process is limited to the point of being nonexistent. How do
:56:25. > :56:28.you measure this? It is a general summary of the feedback we got from
:56:29. > :56:31.a number of organisations. You mentioned in your introduction the
:56:32. > :56:37.low level of participation in the election process. Robin mentioned a
:56:38. > :56:44.number of people earning low wages who actually participate in
:56:45. > :56:47.Parliament committees. When you gather the evidence, it is clear
:56:48. > :56:52.that there is a fairly strong degree of disillusionment with people at
:56:53. > :56:56.all process. If there is disillusionment and disengagement,
:56:57. > :57:01.is that the same as seeing people are disinterested? Not at all. One
:57:02. > :57:05.route points is that people are very interested in political issues and
:57:06. > :57:09.political issues are important for people in terms of their daily
:57:10. > :57:12.lives. What we have to try to do and we hope the report is a positive
:57:13. > :57:16.contribution to the discussion, is we have to ensure that our path with
:57:17. > :57:20.that enable ordinary people do feel that they can influence
:57:21. > :57:23.decision-making and participate in the process. How sure are you that
:57:24. > :57:29.people want to participate and they want a role? Isn't there are many
:57:30. > :57:33.people in the population who say, we let these people to make the
:57:34. > :57:35.decisions, get on with it. One of the things that the report
:57:36. > :57:40.highlighted was that in other European countries there is a much
:57:41. > :57:44.higher level of participation amongst the population. There is
:57:45. > :57:48.nothing to suggest Scottish people somehow have a different approach to
:57:49. > :57:51.decision-making about their lives. I think we have developed a process in
:57:52. > :57:54.Scotland and to some extent the UK where people do feel
:57:55. > :57:57.disenfranchised, they do feel impotent in the face of
:57:58. > :58:00.decision-making processes. What we are suggesting in the report is a
:58:01. > :58:04.number of ways of taking this forward. Some of them are relatively
:58:05. > :58:09.small-scale, they might be about local decisions in the community.
:58:10. > :58:13.Some of them will have an impact on our whole system. And if we can get
:58:14. > :58:16.agreement to take some of these ideals forward, we will see a
:58:17. > :58:21.groundswell of involvement and people participating. What is the
:58:22. > :58:28.role of politicians in this lack of participation? Are some of them
:58:29. > :58:31.reluctant to share power? At the most politicians become engaged in
:58:32. > :58:39.politics for the best of motives. They want to see a fairer society. I
:58:40. > :58:42.think the proposals we have in the commission report and around
:58:43. > :58:47.involving more people in the consultation process, for example,
:58:48. > :58:50.in terms of influencing budget decisions, I think that would be to
:58:51. > :58:54.the benefit of politicians. We were told when the Scottish Parliament
:58:55. > :58:57.was set up that it would do things differently from Westminster. I you
:58:58. > :59:04.suggesting that has not happened? A lot of consultation goes on. The
:59:05. > :59:07.Scottish Parliament is in the better placed than the UK Parliament. In
:59:08. > :59:12.number of hopes and aspirations and the Scottish Parliament have
:59:13. > :59:17.floundered. -- a number of hopes and aspirations. Party politics dominate
:59:18. > :59:24.the Scottish Parliament. We had been hoping for a more consensual
:59:25. > :59:29.approach. Robin highlighted the fact that we have the facility for
:59:30. > :59:34.committees to hear evidence but that is for a elite section of people. It
:59:35. > :59:37.is often not for the people who would be the main recipients of the
:59:38. > :59:40.decision-making process. They might be well-organised which is why they
:59:41. > :59:46.have access to the politicians in the first place. It is far harder to
:59:47. > :59:50.canvass a lot of youth and come to a consensus rather than speaking to
:59:51. > :59:53.organise groups. As things stand, it is difficult for politicians to have
:59:54. > :59:59.that access will stop one of the ideas we suggest is people jury 's.
:00:00. > :00:03.That would actually facilitate politicians. They would have access
:00:04. > :00:08.to a broad range of opinion, that opinion would be supported. The
:00:09. > :00:12.mechanisms here are not about attacking the current system, it is
:00:13. > :00:19.about expanding the role of people in that decision-making process. Is
:00:20. > :00:29.there a danger you could offer too much democracy? There is never late
:00:30. > :00:32.year goes by when we do not have elections, whether it is for the
:00:33. > :00:40.Council, Westminster, Scottish Parliament or Europe. Good people
:00:41. > :00:47.just be a bit bored of the whole process? There is the danger of
:00:48. > :00:55.election fatigue. There are different ways of influencing
:00:56. > :01:01.thinking. The health boards are one aspect of that. But if you took some
:01:02. > :01:09.of the health board decisions and used them, the idea of a
:01:10. > :01:17.cross-section of the public being involved in it, you would be able to
:01:18. > :01:22.justify these decisions, not by electoral process, but by
:01:23. > :01:29.consultation. The would-be de-signed to encourage involvement by the
:01:30. > :01:35.population. You want politicians to look at this is a new way of
:01:36. > :01:42.thinking. If this idea that people are not engaged, will there be a
:01:43. > :01:46.danger that everyone loses interest? There is always a danger of people
:01:47. > :01:51.do not have faith in the democratic process. We have had riots in the
:01:52. > :01:57.past in the United Kingdom and part of that was around the alienation of
:01:58. > :02:02.young people. We need a society where people having gauged with
:02:03. > :02:07.politics and trust politicians. Any surveys that commercial but
:02:08. > :02:14.politicians, the level of trust accorded to them, is that an
:02:15. > :02:18.all-time low. But this has to be real. People have to be involved in
:02:19. > :02:24.the process. The current system is not working and we have suggested a
:02:25. > :02:28.number of ways forward. We think they are is an opportune time no for
:02:29. > :02:33.everyone to have a look at this. Thank you for coming in.
:02:34. > :02:37.Coming up after the news, we will mull over the big news of the week
:02:38. > :02:40.and what will make the headlines in the days to come with our guests,
:02:41. > :02:43.Lucy Adams of The Herald and Spectator blogger Alex Massie.
:02:44. > :02:47.You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland and the time is coming up
:02:48. > :02:49.for 1.30pm. So, let us cross now for the news from Reporting Scotland,
:02:50. > :02:52.with Andrew Kerr. Good afternoon. Thousands of people
:02:53. > :02:54.across Scotland fell silent this morning to remember the dead of two
:02:55. > :03:04.world wars and conflicts since. The First Minister and Secretary of
:03:05. > :03:08.State for Scotland laid wreaths at the Stone of Remembrance in
:03:09. > :03:11.Edinburgh. Meanwhile, hundreds of people also marked the two minutes'
:03:12. > :03:18.silence in the ceremony at the Cenotaph in Glasgow.
:03:19. > :03:22.Former Defence Secretary Lord Reid has warned that UK warships will not
:03:23. > :03:25.be built in Scotland if there is a Yes vote in the referendum. Lord
:03:26. > :03:29.Reid said the Type 26 vessels earmarked for the Glasgow yards
:03:30. > :03:33.would not be built in "a foreign country". The Deputy First Minister
:03:34. > :03:40.has rebuffed that, pointing out the Clyde will be the only place where
:03:41. > :03:43.these ships can be built. A new idea to improve the dental
:03:44. > :03:47.health of Scottish school children is being hailed as a success.
:03:48. > :03:50.Glasgow University researchers found the Childsmile programme has saved
:03:51. > :03:54.more than ?6 million in dental bills. The scheme involves staff at
:03:55. > :04:01.every nursery offering free, supervised tooth-brushing each day.
:04:02. > :04:06.Now, let us get the forecast with Gillian Smart.
:04:07. > :04:16.Good afternoon. Some glorious spells of autumnal sunshine around. It was
:04:17. > :04:21.a cold start, but that has no clear that it will be blue sky and
:04:22. > :04:28.sunshine for most others. A bit more in the way of cloud across the
:04:29. > :04:32.northern parts of the country. That will be the exception, because
:04:33. > :04:37.elsewhere around the country ever be dry and bright with good spells of
:04:38. > :04:41.sunshine. I temperature is of eight Celsius.
:04:42. > :04:46.That is it for the moment. Our next update is at 6.10pm.
:04:47. > :04:49.Now, in a moment, we will be discussing the big events coming up
:04:50. > :04:58.this week at Holyrood, but first, let us take a look back at the Week
:04:59. > :05:03.in Sixty Seconds. The row over alleged vote rigging and Falkirk
:05:04. > :05:09.rumbled on. Alistair Darling said that if the police do not pursue the
:05:10. > :05:15.matter, there should be a fresh enquiry, with results published.
:05:16. > :05:23.Payday loan companies defended the policies in front of the committee
:05:24. > :05:26.of MPs. Glasgow 2014 organisers said there has been a sensational demand
:05:27. > :05:33.for tickets for the Commonwealth Games next year. Over 90% have
:05:34. > :05:41.already been sold. The Scottish government published proposals about
:05:42. > :05:48.revitalising the City centres. The Church of Scotland added its voice
:05:49. > :05:53.for the armed forces to stop recruiting 16 and 17-year-olds and
:05:54. > :05:56.plans to introduce gay marriage won the support of the equal
:05:57. > :06:04.opportunities committee in Holyrood.
:06:05. > :06:08.What is in store for the week ahead? And who is making the headlines
:06:09. > :06:11.today? Let us take a look. My guests this week are Lucy Adams
:06:12. > :06:19.of The Herald and The Spectator blogger Alex Massie. Let us start
:06:20. > :06:26.with shipbuilding. We will find out the next couple of days how the job
:06:27. > :06:32.losses will impact on the Clyde and Rosyth. In the Sunday Herald, there
:06:33. > :06:39.is a piecing that a vote to leave the United Kingdom will put into
:06:40. > :06:45.doubt we're ships will be built in the future. Nicola starred Jim hits
:06:46. > :06:53.back. Does this move anything forward? No, both sides are claiming
:06:54. > :07:01.a certainty over something which is uncertain. Uncertainty leads to
:07:02. > :07:06.project fear and scaremongering that we hear the yes campaign accusing
:07:07. > :07:11.opponents of. The honest answer of this from both sides as that we do
:07:12. > :07:16.not know what is going to happen to Royal Navy ship contracts in the
:07:17. > :07:20.event of Scotland being independent. Nicholas Dudgeon is correct to say
:07:21. > :07:24.they probably could still be built in Glasgow, but there is a big
:07:25. > :07:29.difference between good and probably would. I think it is more probable
:07:30. > :07:35.they would not be built in Glasgow, but it is not impossible that they
:07:36. > :07:39.could be. More importantly, this is the sort of thing that gets wrapped
:07:40. > :07:45.into the independence campaign when it probably should not be. If you
:07:46. > :07:49.are going to decide your vote on the basis of shipbuilding on the Clyde,
:07:50. > :07:59.it is a narrow basis for you to make your mind up, unless you are a
:08:00. > :08:05.worker in that industry. It is enormously emotive. We know that 800
:08:06. > :08:10.jobs are going to go, regardless. This debate is raging around
:08:11. > :08:15.politics. For the next two days, they will be a summit to discuss
:08:16. > :08:21.what will happen to these people, how they may be redeployed. On the
:08:22. > :08:24.bigger issue, the politicians are going to continue to grow about what
:08:25. > :08:29.this means for the future and the referendum. At the end of the day,
:08:30. > :08:33.these people have lost their jobs and for a lot of people, the word
:08:34. > :08:40.jobs, referendum in future will go together and they will use that. But
:08:41. > :08:45.when it came to Grangemouth, we saw cooperation between the two
:08:46. > :08:50.governments. On the subject is shipbuilding, it appears to have led
:08:51. > :08:56.to a political row. This is a different issue. Grangemouth was
:08:57. > :09:01.about a single industry, a single client. Shipbuilding, because it is
:09:02. > :09:06.much more in emotive, casts a greater shadow over the political
:09:07. > :09:14.process, because it is redolent with the history of the Clyde. Much of
:09:15. > :09:17.this has disappeared over the last 70 or 80 years. Because the
:09:18. > :09:22.shipbuilding argument is also about the future, it is inevitable that a
:09:23. > :09:32.gets dragged into the referendum debate. It is any one of these
:09:33. > :09:35.isolated examples sees to me and insufficiently as to whether you
:09:36. > :09:39.should cast your vote. Whether Scotland should be independent is
:09:40. > :09:49.neither diminished or increased by whether the Royal Navy built
:09:50. > :09:54.frigates on the Clyde or the Solent. We cared about the sad death of
:09:55. > :10:01.Helen Eadie, the MSP for Cowdenbeath. We had a lot of tribute
:10:02. > :10:07.about her. She was very well liked and admired. I dealt with her on a
:10:08. > :10:12.number of occasions and always found her to be a real character and
:10:13. > :10:18.someone who was very dedicated to her constituents. I think moving
:10:19. > :10:25.tributes have been paid to her and she was just 66, tragically young.
:10:26. > :10:32.This opens the prospect of a by-election. She had a majority of
:10:33. > :10:37.just over 1,000. This will clearly probably be less contentious than
:10:38. > :10:39.the one in Dunfermline. Yes, obviously be circumstances in which
:10:40. > :10:47.the by-election has arisen are different. As you are seeing, with
:10:48. > :11:00.some of the tributes to her, she had a reputation, it was against the
:11:01. > :11:05.Russell Black brand view of politics that everyone is in it for
:11:06. > :11:13.themselves. She proved to be the opposite of that. A lot of politics
:11:14. > :11:19.is drudgery, it is painstaking work. A backbenchers casework is never
:11:20. > :11:24.done. It does not make headlines, it is not sexy, because it does not
:11:25. > :11:33.have a conflict drama for the newspapers. It is the popular in
:11:34. > :11:42.cheap cynicism offered by the likes of Russell Brand. This report from
:11:43. > :11:47.the foundation, about the role of engaging the public with the
:11:48. > :11:53.politicians. They say there is a real divide. This is a long-standing
:11:54. > :11:59.problem. The foundation said this could be addressed. As the ugly
:12:00. > :12:03.political will to do that? It is an interesting report and it comes out
:12:04. > :12:07.at an interesting time, and around up to the referendum. They highlight
:12:08. > :12:13.some important issues, talking about people out with the Central Belt
:12:14. > :12:19.time to do video conferences and been told it was not feasible. He
:12:20. > :12:26.talks about an Edinburgh centric approach. Some of it is very focused
:12:27. > :12:30.around that. You could see my improvements could easily be made.
:12:31. > :12:35.Other points it makes are vague. It talks about appointments to public
:12:36. > :12:41.boards and you heard about how health boards might or might not be
:12:42. > :12:45.appointed locally. I think some of these points are more difficult to
:12:46. > :12:50.address. It talks about civil servants having too much power in
:12:51. > :12:54.who is appointed to these boards and the likes of social networks,
:12:55. > :12:59.focused around an elite group, and some of those points are harder to
:13:00. > :13:07.address, but obviously, Larry talked about the point that you could have
:13:08. > :13:11.people Judy 's and maybe have a more diverse group of people giving
:13:12. > :13:19.opinions to politicians and civil servants. Do you think the public
:13:20. > :13:22.want to see these type of changes? I think given the opportunity and
:13:23. > :13:31.reason to get involved, we see this on a single issue pieces, such as
:13:32. > :13:40.wind farms. The problem with local democracy in Scotland are dated
:13:41. > :13:43.neither of them local or democratic. This is a debate which will
:13:44. > :13:46.continue. Thank you very much for coming in.
:13:47. > :13:50.That is all from us this week. I will be back at the usual time of
:13:51. > :13:55.11.30am next week. Until then, goodbye.