:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:42. > :00:46.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:47. > :00:47.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's
:00:48. > :00:56.mini-budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:57. > :01:00.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:01. > :01:01.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:02. > :01:14.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the
:01:15. > :01:18.easier it is for cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:19. > :01:21.inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The
:01:22. > :01:24.speech won him plenty of headlines, and reminded everyone he still has
:01:25. > :01:27.ambitions. So what is the Boris game plan? And on Sunday Politics
:01:28. > :01:30.Scotland: Preparations are made to lift the helicopter fuselage from
:01:31. > :01:32.the debris of the Clutha pub in Glasgow. Eight people are known to
:01:33. > :01:45.have died in the accident. deliver?
:01:46. > :01:48.And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the
:01:49. > :01:55.packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the
:01:56. > :01:58.bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be
:01:59. > :02:07.tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after
:02:08. > :02:10.weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the
:02:11. > :02:13.Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with
:02:14. > :02:15.its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained
:02:16. > :02:19.how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.
:02:20. > :02:23.What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by
:02:24. > :02:28.government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the
:02:29. > :02:34.average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas
:02:35. > :02:38.bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that
:02:39. > :02:41.government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families
:02:42. > :02:46.incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way
:02:47. > :02:49.that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing
:02:50. > :02:55.with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping
:02:56. > :03:01.low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing
:03:02. > :03:05.the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband
:03:06. > :03:08.freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and
:03:09. > :03:14.older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit
:03:15. > :03:19.of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with
:03:20. > :03:24.the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not
:03:25. > :03:29.very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced
:03:30. > :03:35.overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to
:03:36. > :03:41.it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are
:03:42. > :03:47.explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does
:03:48. > :03:51.not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what
:03:52. > :03:54.agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would
:03:55. > :04:00.fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,
:04:01. > :04:04.I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests
:04:05. > :04:11.he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies
:04:12. > :04:15.have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced
:04:16. > :04:19.this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for
:04:20. > :04:24.ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an
:04:25. > :04:29.incentive to go along with this, don't they? My worry is that I am
:04:30. > :04:36.not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people
:04:37. > :04:41.might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting
:04:42. > :04:46.thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by
:04:47. > :04:52.Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your
:04:53. > :04:55.bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall
:04:56. > :05:00.through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they
:05:01. > :05:07.themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the
:05:08. > :05:12.Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still
:05:13. > :05:16.very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance
:05:17. > :05:20.announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze
:05:21. > :05:24.prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen
:05:25. > :05:29.them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at
:05:30. > :05:34.their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a
:05:35. > :05:41.reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 08
:05:42. > :05:49.will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this
:05:50. > :05:52.time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George
:05:53. > :05:56.Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that ?50
:05:57. > :06:01.has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the
:06:02. > :06:06.government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political
:06:07. > :06:10.bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along
:06:11. > :06:15.with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.
:06:16. > :06:18.Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the
:06:19. > :06:24.Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:06:25. > :06:32.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the
:06:33. > :06:35.coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or
:06:36. > :06:41.is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with
:06:42. > :06:47.the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where
:06:48. > :06:52.the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the
:06:53. > :06:55.homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing
:06:56. > :06:59.in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,
:07:00. > :07:04.but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.
:07:05. > :07:08.You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly
:07:09. > :07:14.down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are
:07:15. > :07:19.shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot
:07:20. > :07:24.ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older
:07:25. > :07:28.people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and
:07:29. > :07:34.raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with
:07:35. > :07:39.that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the
:07:40. > :07:42.eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation
:07:43. > :07:46.of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four
:07:47. > :07:52.years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost
:07:53. > :07:58.10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,
:07:59. > :08:04.how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.
:08:05. > :08:08.The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My
:08:09. > :08:16.take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about
:08:17. > :08:20.green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort
:08:21. > :08:26.of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income
:08:27. > :08:34.families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't
:08:35. > :08:41.-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall
:08:42. > :08:47.we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know
:08:48. > :08:53.that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be
:08:54. > :08:56.doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have
:08:57. > :09:10.jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my
:09:11. > :09:13.point quite well. David Cameron's panicked response to this over the
:09:14. > :09:18.last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to
:09:19. > :09:23.make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this
:09:24. > :09:26.government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are
:09:27. > :09:34.making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to
:09:35. > :09:39.you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.
:09:40. > :09:42.But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the
:09:43. > :09:46.threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account
:09:47. > :09:50.on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in
:09:51. > :09:58.coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not
:09:59. > :10:02.reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest
:10:03. > :10:07.income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be
:10:08. > :10:13.potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be
:10:14. > :10:17.that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going
:10:18. > :10:23.to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.
:10:24. > :10:33.We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the
:10:34. > :10:38.adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in
:10:39. > :10:43.favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest
:10:44. > :10:47.answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come
:10:48. > :10:56.round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if
:10:57. > :11:00.Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you
:11:01. > :11:05.would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?
:11:06. > :11:10.If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British
:11:11. > :11:17.people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,
:11:18. > :11:20.which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for
:11:21. > :11:25.those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might
:11:26. > :11:33.reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.
:11:34. > :11:40.Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,
:11:41. > :11:44.correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely
:11:45. > :11:50.fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want
:11:51. > :11:54.to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my
:11:55. > :11:59.view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour
:12:00. > :12:06.because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while
:12:07. > :12:09.they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy
:12:10. > :12:21.up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against
:12:22. > :12:27.it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference.
:12:28. > :12:38.Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. -- on
:12:39. > :12:44.the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income
:12:45. > :12:49.tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view
:12:50. > :12:56.that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are
:12:57. > :13:01.temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that
:13:02. > :13:06.was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return
:13:07. > :13:10.for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out
:13:11. > :13:17.of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour
:13:18. > :13:21.of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds
:13:22. > :13:26.open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is
:13:27. > :13:32.whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through
:13:33. > :13:43.other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair
:13:44. > :13:48.share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room
:13:49. > :13:52.subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with
:13:53. > :13:58.the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have
:13:59. > :14:03.about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the
:14:04. > :14:11.next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,
:14:12. > :14:16.but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for
:14:17. > :14:20.your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the
:14:21. > :14:25.prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always
:14:26. > :14:30.follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal
:14:31. > :14:35.Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.
:14:36. > :14:40.Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of
:14:41. > :14:45.the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up
:14:46. > :14:50.with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as
:14:51. > :14:54.you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and
:14:55. > :14:58.agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you
:14:59. > :15:03.disagree with. It is what grown-ups do. A lot of people in your party
:15:04. > :15:09.think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a
:15:10. > :15:16.post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant
:15:17. > :15:29.manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the
:15:30. > :15:35.sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I
:15:36. > :15:38.see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I
:15:39. > :15:49.have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and
:15:50. > :15:54.large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the
:15:55. > :15:58.president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside
:15:59. > :16:04.the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for
:16:05. > :16:08.joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens
:16:09. > :16:11.of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",
:16:12. > :16:15.and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,
:16:16. > :16:18.immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released
:16:19. > :16:21.earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the
:16:22. > :16:25.first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are
:16:26. > :16:29.talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come
:16:30. > :16:33.into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins
:16:34. > :16:39.and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants
:16:40. > :16:44.the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and
:16:45. > :16:48.Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to
:16:49. > :16:57.apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted
:16:58. > :16:58.apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the
:16:59. > :17:03.2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England
:17:04. > :17:07.and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 2004.
:17:08. > :17:13.The government has played down expectations that the skill of
:17:14. > :17:16.migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new
:17:17. > :17:21.restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was
:17:22. > :17:32.two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being
:17:33. > :17:38.seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday
:17:39. > :17:41.interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You
:17:42. > :17:47.criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from
:17:48. > :17:50.Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted
:17:51. > :17:55.arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the
:17:56. > :17:58.battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what
:17:59. > :18:01.preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from
:18:02. > :18:07.some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been
:18:08. > :18:12.better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of
:18:13. > :18:16.what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a
:18:17. > :18:22.series of measures that the Government still had time to bring
:18:23. > :18:26.in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There
:18:27. > :18:30.was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,
:18:31. > :18:34.and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do
:18:35. > :18:39.not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for
:18:40. > :18:44.everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking
:18:45. > :18:48.again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I
:18:49. > :18:54.understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not
:18:55. > :19:01.preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,
:19:02. > :19:05.I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency
:19:06. > :19:11.workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did
:19:12. > :19:15.support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I
:19:16. > :19:20.have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we
:19:21. > :19:25.recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in
:19:26. > :19:30.opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given
:19:31. > :19:34.your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in
:19:35. > :19:38.2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not
:19:39. > :19:44.keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I
:19:45. > :19:46.think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we
:19:47. > :19:50.did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the
:19:51. > :19:57.concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have
:19:58. > :19:59.come from people who have come to Britain over many generations
:20:00. > :20:02.contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise
:20:03. > :20:06.that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible
:20:07. > :20:12.for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures
:20:13. > :20:16.that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people
:20:17. > :20:18.have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.
:20:19. > :20:23.Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled
:20:24. > :20:27.and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on
:20:28. > :20:32.immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total
:20:33. > :20:36.net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in
:20:37. > :20:47.migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --
:20:48. > :20:51.twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We
:20:52. > :20:57.set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and
:20:58. > :21:01.it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?
:21:02. > :21:06.Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to
:21:07. > :21:11.Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have
:21:12. > :21:16.become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that
:21:17. > :21:20.has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls
:21:21. > :21:24.from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have
:21:25. > :21:29.sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm
:21:30. > :21:34.debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the
:21:35. > :21:39.full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What
:21:40. > :21:43.that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this
:21:44. > :21:49.country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.
:21:50. > :21:54.Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people
:21:55. > :21:59.coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come
:22:00. > :22:05.to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of
:22:06. > :22:10.control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was
:22:11. > :22:14.that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern
:22:15. > :22:17.Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened
:22:18. > :22:23.with not having transitional controls in place. The Government
:22:24. > :22:27.didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way
:22:28. > :22:32.it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.
:22:33. > :22:36.We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened
:22:37. > :22:41.in countries all over the world. We travel and trade far more than ever.
:22:42. > :22:45.We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries
:22:46. > :22:49.have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing
:22:50. > :22:53.countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am
:22:54. > :22:58.trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you
:22:59. > :23:02.lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have
:23:03. > :23:05.already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a
:23:06. > :23:09.transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would
:23:10. > :23:14.have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have
:23:15. > :23:18.brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in
:23:19. > :23:22.towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration
:23:23. > :23:25.because there are different kinds of migration. University students
:23:26. > :23:29.coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the
:23:30. > :23:33.other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the
:23:34. > :23:39.jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour
:23:40. > :23:43.market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of
:23:44. > :23:46.migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the
:23:47. > :23:52.lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go
:23:53. > :23:58.to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came
:23:59. > :24:01.from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder
:24:02. > :24:07.of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and
:24:08. > :24:11.the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are
:24:12. > :24:14.nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that
:24:15. > :24:20.immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a
:24:21. > :24:25.mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession
:24:26. > :24:29.groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the
:24:30. > :24:34.changes that happened. Secondly, in answer to the question that you just
:24:35. > :24:38.asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system
:24:39. > :24:41.at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the
:24:42. > :24:44.number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought
:24:45. > :24:49.billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not
:24:50. > :24:53.distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is
:24:54. > :24:56.starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem
:24:57. > :25:01.is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not
:25:02. > :25:05.address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats
:25:06. > :25:10.university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low
:25:11. > :25:15.skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to
:25:16. > :25:18.bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we
:25:19. > :25:23.would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There
:25:24. > :25:27.is something called student visas, which is not included in the
:25:28. > :25:32.figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a
:25:33. > :25:42.figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They
:25:43. > :25:45.come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they
:25:46. > :25:48.come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to
:25:49. > :25:50.come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the
:25:51. > :25:53.system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate
:25:54. > :25:56.and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give
:25:57. > :26:01.us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have
:26:02. > :26:05.seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made
:26:06. > :26:29.a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is
:26:30. > :26:32.right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which
:26:33. > :26:34.we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to
:26:35. > :26:37.listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then
:26:38. > :26:40.she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has
:26:41. > :26:42.chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I
:26:43. > :26:45.think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and
:26:46. > :26:48.reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.
:26:49. > :26:53.OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,000
:26:54. > :26:58.front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to
:26:59. > :27:02.fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that
:27:03. > :27:07.you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the
:27:08. > :27:11.Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.
:27:12. > :27:15.Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,
:27:16. > :27:24.and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have
:27:25. > :27:29.also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions
:27:30. > :27:34.dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not
:27:35. > :27:37.having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential
:27:38. > :27:41.increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth
:27:42. > :27:48.areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is
:27:49. > :27:51.about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over
:27:52. > :27:55.many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in
:27:56. > :27:59.the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People
:28:00. > :28:03.like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it
:28:04. > :28:08.leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens
:28:09. > :28:11.commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been
:28:12. > :28:17.the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of
:28:18. > :28:19.people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is
:28:20. > :28:23.about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working
:28:24. > :28:27.with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of
:28:28. > :28:31.their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved
:28:32. > :28:34.with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was
:28:35. > :28:41.to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you
:28:42. > :28:46.would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in
:28:47. > :28:49.all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is
:28:50. > :28:53.competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime
:28:54. > :28:57.and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point
:28:58. > :29:02.about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.
:29:03. > :29:08.It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of
:29:09. > :29:14.communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?
:29:15. > :29:19.Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised
:29:20. > :29:24.concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,
:29:25. > :29:30.Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million
:29:31. > :29:35.and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability
:29:36. > :29:40.at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.
:29:41. > :29:44.So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is
:29:45. > :29:55.which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out
:29:56. > :30:00.a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would
:30:01. > :30:05.be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't
:30:06. > :30:09.volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I
:30:10. > :30:14.think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented
:30:15. > :30:18.things and made it harder to get collaboration between police
:30:19. > :30:23.forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What
:30:24. > :30:29.is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't
:30:30. > :30:39.complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!
:30:40. > :30:43.In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential
:30:44. > :30:47.for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the
:30:48. > :30:53.Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game
:30:54. > :31:01.plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.
:31:02. > :31:04.In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you
:31:05. > :31:15.didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.
:31:16. > :31:33.Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling
:31:34. > :31:36.off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the
:31:37. > :31:42.scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of
:31:43. > :31:44.scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?
:31:45. > :31:47.There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and
:31:48. > :31:50.another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at
:31:51. > :32:01.conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain
:32:02. > :32:06.Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he
:32:07. > :32:10.may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of
:32:11. > :32:19.thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you
:32:20. > :32:23.ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be
:32:24. > :32:30.Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to
:32:31. > :32:37.be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of
:32:38. > :32:44.course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going
:32:45. > :32:46.to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader,
:32:47. > :32:51.another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job
:32:52. > :32:57.Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It
:32:58. > :33:03.is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson
:33:04. > :33:06.to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so
:33:07. > :33:10.that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.
:33:11. > :33:13.And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man
:33:14. > :33:16.who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris
:33:17. > :33:25.replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job.
:33:26. > :33:31.Why might he make such a jibe? Because he has won two more
:33:32. > :33:36.elections and the Prime Minister. The Conservatives like a winner.
:33:37. > :33:41.Boris, against public expectation, even within the party expectation,
:33:42. > :33:47.has won the Mayor of London job twice. I don't buy into the idea
:33:48. > :33:52.that London is an inherently Labour city, but it is not a Conservative
:33:53. > :33:55.city either. He might have built a following with the grassroots but is
:33:56. > :34:02.on shaky ground with Tory MPs who see him as a selfish clown, unfit
:34:03. > :34:07.for high office. And besides, he is not the only one with king-size
:34:08. > :34:13.ambitions. And Boris and George are not close, however much they prayed
:34:14. > :34:19.-- profess unity. There is probably some Chinese expression for us, the
:34:20. > :34:22.England a yang. In plain black-and-white, if Boris has a
:34:23. > :34:31.plan, you cannot instigate it. If David Cameron is PM in 2016, he may
:34:32. > :34:37.never be able to implement. It would not be plain sailing if he did make
:34:38. > :34:42.a leadership bid. My leadership's chances are as good as my chances as
:34:43. > :34:46.being reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high,
:34:47. > :34:49.actually. So if the job you want with Brownesque desire is
:34:50. > :34:57.potentially never to be yours, what do you do? He is, of course, an
:34:58. > :35:02.American citizen by birth. He was born in New York public hospital. So
:35:03. > :35:06.he is qualified to be President of the United States. And you don't
:35:07. > :35:09.need an IQ over 16 to find that the tinciest bit scary.
:35:10. > :35:19.Giles Dilnot reporting. Let's get some money out of this panel. Helen,
:35:20. > :35:24.is there a Boris plan, and what is it? I think it is to say what the
:35:25. > :35:28.Tory activist base wants to say right now and know that in 18 months
:35:29. > :35:34.he can disown it. I think he's wrong. The way that speeches have
:35:35. > :35:38.played has alienate it an enormous number of people. Boris's great
:35:39. > :35:44.strength was that he won London and had cross-party appeal, and now he
:35:45. > :35:46.will reconfirm the Tories being the nasty party that they are, and
:35:47. > :35:53.they've just been pretending to be modern. Is it not the blunt truth
:35:54. > :36:00.that he needs Mr Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in
:36:01. > :36:05.this decade? Yes, I think it's interesting watching his fortunes
:36:06. > :36:07.waxed and waned. It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how
:36:08. > :36:11.well David Cameron is doing. There is no small element of strategy
:36:12. > :36:16.about what we are doing here. It is about appealing to the Tory party,
:36:17. > :36:20.and Boris's problem is that he is popular with the country but not
:36:21. > :36:25.with the MPs in the party and its hard-core supporters, and that is
:36:26. > :36:30.what this week has been about. So it was an appeal to the grassroots?
:36:31. > :36:34.Yes, it was. He's not the only potential candidate, naturally. If
:36:35. > :36:37.we were in a circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr
:36:38. > :36:45.Cameron, who would be the other front runners? I think they would
:36:46. > :36:50.skip a generation like go down to some 2010. I don't buy the idea that
:36:51. > :36:54.it is Jeremy Hunt versus Michael Gove versus more -- George Osborne.
:36:55. > :36:59.I think by then that generation of people will be tainted by being in
:37:00. > :37:03.government for that long. It's revealing we always analyse Boris
:37:04. > :37:06.Johnson's statements from a nakedly political angle, which constituency
:37:07. > :37:11.of opinion is he trying to buy off. We underestimate how ideological he
:37:12. > :37:15.is. He doesn't believe in many things but he believes in a few
:37:16. > :37:18.quite deeply, and one is the idea of competition in the economic sphere
:37:19. > :37:22.and education, in other words academic selection. He has never
:37:23. > :37:28.been squeamish about expressing that. We do make a mistake sometimes
:37:29. > :37:33.in assuming that he is entirely political. He's mainly political,
:37:34. > :37:38.but partly ideological. Look at the Northern voters who won't vote for
:37:39. > :37:42.the -- Tory party because they just feel they could never do it. They
:37:43. > :37:49.would vote UKIP. I don't think he helps at all. Who would help the
:37:50. > :37:55.Tories there? Theresa May has also been giving it some hard-core nasty.
:37:56. > :37:59.You go out to dinner with him, like I have, and it is like dining with a
:38:00. > :38:05.film star. People queue up to speak to him. He has gone a bit soft on
:38:06. > :38:09.Europe, from the perspective of the party, soft on immigration. So
:38:10. > :38:14.educational selection is one of the areas he can offer to people on his
:38:15. > :38:17.own side. He has gone liberal on immigration, as America London would
:38:18. > :38:21.have to be if you want to be re-elected. -- the Mayor of London
:38:22. > :38:28.would have to be. It's just gone 11:30am. You're watching the Sunday
:38:29. > :38:34.Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming
:38:35. > :38:37.up on the programme: Preparations are made to lift the helicopter
:38:38. > :38:41.fuselage from the debris of the Clutha pub where eight people were
:38:42. > :38:44.killed on Friday night, as the people of Glasgow try to come to
:38:45. > :38:47.terms with what's happened. I just came from the cathedral, and I've
:38:48. > :38:53.left a candle there and said a prayer. There are people that lost
:38:54. > :38:57.their life. More prayers for the dead and injured are being said at a
:38:58. > :39:00.special service at Glasgow Cathedral as we speak We're joined by the
:39:01. > :39:04.First Minister Alex Salmond who has been paying tribute to those who
:39:05. > :39:08.lost their lives in the accident and the emergency services at the scene
:39:09. > :39:12.A black day for Glasgow. The First Minister's words captured the mood
:39:13. > :39:17.of a city in shock. What should have been a fun Friday night out ended in
:39:18. > :39:20.the deaths of eight people as a police helicopter crashed into the
:39:21. > :39:23.roof of a busy pub. Police have named one of the victims as
:39:24. > :39:25.48-year-old Gary Arthur from Paisley. It's being reported locally
:39:26. > :39:32.that two other victims of Friday night's crash are pilot David Traill
:39:33. > :39:35.and police officer Kirsty Nelis. This morning, those who lost their
:39:36. > :39:38.lives and those injured are being remembered at a special service at
:39:39. > :39:42.Glasgow Cathedral. Andrew Kerr reports.
:39:43. > :39:50.A rotor blades that once spun across the city sky on a police helicopter
:39:51. > :39:53.is lifted from the roof of the clues. The heavy lifting gear has
:39:54. > :40:01.been brought in the difficult task of the rest of the wreckage --
:40:02. > :40:03.Clutha. We have lost to colleagues and three members of the police
:40:04. > :40:09.family, and whilst there are eight other families in mourning, the
:40:10. > :40:12.biggest family will find this a difficult day indeed. The people of
:40:13. > :40:18.the city have been overwhelmed by the tragic combination of
:40:19. > :40:22.circumstances. It is such a bad tragedy, what happened there. I came
:40:23. > :40:27.from the cathedral and I have left a candle, and to say a prayer for...
:40:28. > :40:36.For the people that lost their lives. The death toll stands at
:40:37. > :40:39.eight, and three helicopter crew and five in the pub -- from three
:40:40. > :40:44.helicopter crew. Gary Arthur from Paisley was one victim. His daughter
:40:45. > :40:50.Chloe who plays for Celtic and Scotland on the 19th paid tribute on
:40:51. > :40:58.Twitter. I promised to do you proud. At the morning service at Glasgow
:40:59. > :41:02.Cathedral there is support for the living and remembrance for the dead.
:41:03. > :41:07.It is an opportunity for Glasgow to come together and pray for those in
:41:08. > :41:11.suffering, but also to show our solidarity with those who are
:41:12. > :41:14.suffering. So, in some way, they would get the message that they are
:41:15. > :41:20.not alone. That the whole community here is thinking of them and, in a
:41:21. > :41:25.sense, embracing them. As a police chaplain, the minister was in the
:41:26. > :41:28.hospital wards in the early hours of yesterday morning. Relatives have
:41:29. > :41:35.been keeping vigil is, sitting up bedsides. 14 people were kept in for
:41:36. > :41:40.a second night. The tragic event brought the city together on
:41:41. > :41:44.Scotland's national day. This is a black day for Glasgow and Scotland.
:41:45. > :41:49.But it's also St Andrew's day. And it is a day where we can take pride
:41:50. > :41:56.and courage in how we respond to adversity and tragedy. And that
:41:57. > :42:01.response from our emergency services and from ordinary citizens has been
:42:02. > :42:07.exemplary. It was a moment when political rival stood shoulder to
:42:08. > :42:10.shoulder. Thankfully these kinds of tragic incidents happened rarely,
:42:11. > :42:15.but we always imagine somehow that it will be somewhere else. In fact
:42:16. > :42:20.it has happened in my hometown in Glasgow. Like the first Minister, I
:42:21. > :42:27.would like to pay tribute to the people of Glasgow who instinctively
:42:28. > :42:32.went to help those who were in need, Glaswegians at their best.
:42:33. > :42:36.Among those who went to help was Labour MP Jim Murphy. This interview
:42:37. > :42:43.flashed around the world captured the shock of the night. Jim, there
:42:44. > :42:50.is blood on your shirt. Yes, it's not mine.
:42:51. > :42:56.It was the busiest moment of the week at a packed and popular venue.
:42:57. > :43:04.There are questions now as to why the helicopter fell from the sky. It
:43:05. > :43:07.was a common sight above the heads of Glaswegians. People here and
:43:08. > :43:12.investigators want to know what happened. It would not be unusual
:43:13. > :43:15.for this to take a year or even longer. It depends on the
:43:16. > :43:20.availability of evidence and how deep you need to go to find lessons
:43:21. > :43:26.to be learned. If it is the investigation Branch, then they are
:43:27. > :43:30.not trying to give liability, they're trying to find out how to
:43:31. > :43:33.make the aircraft safer in the future, so that can take many
:43:34. > :43:37.months. The police are asking for photos and videos to help
:43:38. > :43:42.investigators. Emotions at the scene are still raw. The moment it is time
:43:43. > :43:45.to remember the people who never came home after a night on duty or a
:43:46. > :43:47.night out at the pub. -- at the moment.
:43:48. > :43:51.We're joined now by our correspondent Laura Bicker who's at
:43:52. > :43:53.the scene of Friday night's accident. Laura, heavy lifting
:43:54. > :43:59.equipment has been brought in overnight. What's the latest? A huge
:44:00. > :44:06.crane was brought in over night, as you say. It was brought in to, we
:44:07. > :44:11.understand, lift the helicopter from the roof of the pub. We have seen
:44:12. > :44:19.many firefighters over the roof of the pub this morning, and they have
:44:20. > :44:22.been fixing wires and cables to the helicopter. We understand that the
:44:23. > :44:30.idea is to lift the helicopter, which is still embedded in the roof
:44:31. > :44:36.of the Clutha Vaults, so they can release the victims who may be
:44:37. > :44:39.trapped inside. There are two things happening at the scene. The first
:44:40. > :44:43.thing is that they need to preserve much of the scene for the
:44:44. > :44:46.investigation and much of the helicopter still needs to be
:44:47. > :44:50.examined by investigators. But also, within the pub, there is
:44:51. > :44:53.still, what we understand, we believe there are victims trapped
:44:54. > :44:59.inside. Within the last few minutes I can tell you that an ambulance,
:45:00. > :45:03.surrounded by police motorbikes has been escorted from the scene and is
:45:04. > :45:11.heading south of the river. That is the grim scene this morning. We
:45:12. > :45:15.heard from Sir Stephen House yesterday that the way the
:45:16. > :45:17.helicopter is lodged in the building is hampering the operation, so
:45:18. > :45:22.clearly they can get in once it is moved out of the way. It is a very,
:45:23. > :45:27.very difficult operation. There are several things to take into account
:45:28. > :45:31.here. Not only has the helicopter become deeply embedded in the roof,
:45:32. > :45:36.much debris has fallen down and it depended on which side of the bar
:45:37. > :45:40.you on on Friday night as to the extent of your injuries, we heard
:45:41. > :45:44.from eyewitnesses. A part of the roof has completely collapsed, and
:45:45. > :45:47.certainly firefighters spent most of the early hours of Saturday morning
:45:48. > :45:52.trying to secure the building and make it safe for people to go
:45:53. > :45:57.inside. Another thing we need to remember here is that two police
:45:58. > :46:01.officers were caught up in the incident, and the police are now
:46:02. > :46:04.involved investigating a site where they have lost two of their own.
:46:05. > :46:07.This is a very difficult situation for everyone. Laura, thank you very
:46:08. > :46:13.much. The Queen has said the victims of
:46:14. > :46:15.the crash were in her thoughts and prayers. Political leaders from all
:46:16. > :46:19.parties have expressed their condolences and paid tribute to the
:46:20. > :46:22.work of the emergency services and ordinary citizens who went to help
:46:23. > :46:25.those in the bar. We're joined now from Fraserburgh by the First
:46:26. > :46:31.Minister, Alex Salmond. Good afternoon. You have been taking part
:46:32. > :46:33.in a meeting of the Scottish government's resilience committee
:46:34. > :46:41.this morning. What more do you know about the situation? The resilience
:46:42. > :46:45.committee is ongoing, and it meets formally twice a day. It's the point
:46:46. > :46:50.at which all the emergency services can coordinate and make sure
:46:51. > :46:53.everybody is acting in unison. The situation is as you know it, there
:46:54. > :47:00.have been eight confirmed fatalities. I should say there is an
:47:01. > :47:04.area still to be searched, the area underneath the helicopter itself. As
:47:05. > :47:07.the Chief Constable indicated, we have to prepare ourselves for the
:47:08. > :47:12.possibility there could be further fatalities to come. It is a confined
:47:13. > :47:16.area, but there is a possibility. In terms of survivors there are still
:47:17. > :47:21.12 people hospitalised, three of them in intensive care. But the good
:47:22. > :47:25.news is though the condition is serious it is also stable. The other
:47:26. > :47:28.thing to say is the general acclamation for the work of the
:47:29. > :47:35.emergency services, all of its branches, as well as the heroics of
:47:36. > :47:40.the citizens of Glasgow. Tell us a little more of the role of
:47:41. > :47:43.government in this situation. You are supporting the emergency
:47:44. > :47:47.services, who are very much in the lead at this stage, but what sort of
:47:48. > :47:54.role do you and other members of the government play in this sort of
:47:55. > :47:56.situation? The resilience committee with the coordinating committee
:47:57. > :48:02.which make sure that the branches are working in unison. -- is the
:48:03. > :48:08.coordinating committee. This is the first incident of this scale since
:48:09. > :48:12.the formation of Police Scotland and Fire and rescue Scotland, and by
:48:13. > :48:16.general acknowledgement the response of the emergency services, the first
:48:17. > :48:22.test of these new organisations, has been extraordinary. We always know
:48:23. > :48:27.our emergency services will respond, but to respond in the way they have
:48:28. > :48:30.two an incident of this scale is truly exemplary. That coordinating
:48:31. > :48:36.function is the role of government. Of course, it is necessary and
:48:37. > :48:40.proper, not just the government, but the civic leaders as well, to inform
:48:41. > :48:45.the public and express the views that all of us feel when we are
:48:46. > :48:51.responding to an extraordinary crisis such as this. Sadly, these
:48:52. > :48:55.are not the first fatalities involving a helicopter in Scotland
:48:56. > :48:58.this year. How quickly can an investigation be carried out and the
:48:59. > :49:06.public be given reassurance about the safety of these aircraft? That
:49:07. > :49:13.is the province of the air accident investigation Branch who are on
:49:14. > :49:17.site. Any further instructions come from the civil aviation authority
:49:18. > :49:21.and these instructions are followed. When you have an extraordinary
:49:22. > :49:25.incidents such as this, and I have represented an oil and fishing
:49:26. > :49:29.constituency were a quarter of a century, so these tragedies are not
:49:30. > :49:33.unknown, but when you get a situation that occurs like this,
:49:34. > :49:38.reasonable questions are asked, but the authorities are in place to
:49:39. > :49:42.issue the precautionary and other instructions are required for the
:49:43. > :49:46.safety of the public. We have over 1000 helicopters like this in
:49:47. > :49:49.service, and there are hundreds across the world in the present
:49:50. > :49:55.moment. In terms of the other craft we have in the emergency services,
:49:56. > :49:58.they have been inspected. The air ambulance is fully function from
:49:59. > :50:03.this afternoon. The police have helicopter cover as required as
:50:04. > :50:07.well, so our emergency services continue with the appropriate cover,
:50:08. > :50:11.but any instructions that come from the civil aviation authority based
:50:12. > :50:23.on advice from the air accident investigation Branch, these would be
:50:24. > :50:27.followed. There have been problems with these helicopters in the past
:50:28. > :50:32.with an incident only recently where helicopters were grounded will stop
:50:33. > :50:41.what would you say to the public who may need the issuance? --
:50:42. > :50:49.reassurance. They were grounded for 24 hours, it was not a design
:50:50. > :50:53.aspect. The resolution of that was for inspections of the cast is not
:50:54. > :51:00.just in Scotland but around the world and the grounding was led by a
:51:01. > :51:04.European agency. You have to understand this as an aircraft which
:51:05. > :51:08.has been in service for many years and over 1000 have been produced
:51:09. > :51:14.with hundreds in service at the moment, so speculation is
:51:15. > :51:17.understandable but had to follow the facts as rendered by the accident
:51:18. > :51:25.investigation Branch. Thank you. Players have been offered
:51:26. > :51:34.for the victims and their families at a special service at Glasgow
:51:35. > :51:42.Cathedral this morning. -- prayers. What words of comfort have been
:51:43. > :51:47.offered? This has been a sombre but absolutely beautiful service at
:51:48. > :51:53.Glasgow Cathedral this morning. Around 500 people from all walks of
:51:54. > :51:57.life across all religions and the political spectrum have come here to
:51:58. > :52:03.pay their respects and paid tribute to those who have lost their lives
:52:04. > :52:06.and think of those still seriously injured and two paid tribute to that
:52:07. > :52:18.tremendous effort from the emergency services. The message from the
:52:19. > :52:22.Minister is that we must face this together. That is what he said in
:52:23. > :52:29.the sermon and that has been the theme. It is about the spirit of the
:52:30. > :52:34.city and pulling together and he has mentioned the triumph of the human
:52:35. > :52:48.spirit. He spoke about the lighting of the candles of hope, in memory of
:52:49. > :52:54.those named locally. He said it is not just to remember them but also a
:52:55. > :52:59.sign that darkness shall not snatch everything from us. It was the
:53:00. > :53:05.children from the Sunday school who met those candles. People from
:53:06. > :53:12.across the political spectrum, Margaret Curran is in the, the
:53:13. > :53:15.Deputy first Minister Nicola Sturgeon gave a leading from the old
:53:16. > :53:22.Testament and the Justice Secretary Kenny McAskill has also given a
:53:23. > :53:28.reading. There are vast range of views and I have spoken to people
:53:29. > :53:31.going in this morning and they are pulling together and making this
:53:32. > :53:40.massive effort to show the people of Glasgow, we can get through this and
:53:41. > :53:43.face it together. Is there a sense that more people than normal largely
:53:44. > :53:50.because people are looking for this comfort? I have spoken to a number
:53:51. > :53:54.of people who came in this morning, many people who live near the Clutha
:53:55. > :53:59.Vaults, they have come here to pay their respects and say they want to
:54:00. > :54:08.remember those who have lost their lives than those entered, and to
:54:09. > :54:12.show their support. There's an outpouring of support for those
:54:13. > :54:17.firefighters and paramedics and have seen all of them represented here
:54:18. > :54:22.today. I spoke to the Deputy chief fire officer who said he is so
:54:23. > :54:25.immensely proud of his services, who have pooled together not just from
:54:26. > :54:32.across Glasgow but the whole country, and he wants to know just
:54:33. > :54:45.how proud he is. Thank you. Joining me now live in
:54:46. > :54:54.the studio is the Scottish Labour leader, Johann Lamont. It is
:54:55. > :54:58.desperately sad. I heard the news while travelling home on Friday and
:54:59. > :55:03.it was beyond belief. Liking a lot of people in Glasgow, we wear on the
:55:04. > :55:12.phone to check people we knew and we were fortunate not to get that
:55:13. > :55:15.horrific realisation. We have seen the common humanity that we have
:55:16. > :55:21.found that people have gone to hell and that must make us feel strong in
:55:22. > :55:27.these times, but also our frailty that in the midst of enjoying
:55:28. > :55:33.ourselves these things can happen. It feels just terribly sad and
:55:34. > :55:38.slow-moving and that package, people recognising the belief in the face
:55:39. > :55:44.is because for some families this will go on and on. We have questions
:55:45. > :55:52.but we hope together we can help those in these difficult times and
:55:53. > :55:56.we recognise the emergency services and of how council workers were
:55:57. > :56:01.contacted and came in to help. It is something we can be proud of in
:56:02. > :56:05.these difficult times. Difficult work for the emergency
:56:06. > :56:11.services but an added poignancy because of know amongst the victims
:56:12. > :56:15.are members of the Roman forces? We realise that while we were out
:56:16. > :56:25.enjoying ourselves the where people protecting us and looking out for
:56:26. > :56:29.our safety. Terribly sad and I again I have them speaking movingly of the
:56:30. > :56:36.police family and how difficult it is. Talking about the investigation
:56:37. > :56:39.and that needs to take time but we understand people will need
:56:40. > :56:45.reassurance because there are so many of these aircraft flying
:56:46. > :56:48.around. Everything is being done properly with the proper
:56:49. > :56:52.investigation is going through, and I know there will be families who
:56:53. > :56:58.will have a lot of questions and it is important they get those answers.
:56:59. > :57:04.Everyone wants to know, how did I lose my loved one, so the system has
:57:05. > :57:07.to recognise that and help people through it. The investigations are
:57:08. > :57:12.complex and very detailed and we need to get to the heart of what
:57:13. > :57:22.happened rather than speculating, because that must also be heart
:57:23. > :57:26.full. -- hurtful. Because it is complex it will take time and in the
:57:27. > :57:33.meantime people will look for reassurance? The people that know
:57:34. > :57:37.best how these machines work can know how to inspect them, we have
:57:38. > :57:41.confidence that those in responsibility will take the
:57:42. > :57:48.responsibility seriously, so people worried about whether they is a
:57:49. > :57:52.bigger problem, we will get that. How important is it that people are
:57:53. > :58:00.unable to get together and shared the common bond? -- are able. It is
:58:01. > :58:05.hugely moving that people come together and people with and without
:58:06. > :58:11.faith understand the importance of holding onto a powerful thing
:58:12. > :58:14.amongst all of this, that they are there's something about us as
:58:15. > :58:20.communities responding to that that will help people through. When
:58:21. > :58:26.churches can give voice to that, they provide an important service to
:58:27. > :58:32.all of us. People are very moved by simply because they afford the
:58:33. > :58:38.opportunity to speak on our behalf. If we can help, we will, and we
:58:39. > :58:42.understand that what you are facing is something none of us want to
:58:43. > :58:49.face. St Andrew's Day and the run-up to Christmas, a busy time for
:58:50. > :58:58.Glasgow and what is your sense as a Glasgow MSP as to how the city is
:58:59. > :59:04.dealing with that? There's a shock and from something extraordinary
:59:05. > :59:10.happening in a normal place, I have people saying they always go there,
:59:11. > :59:14.so there's that kind of thing going on and then the shop in the middle
:59:15. > :59:20.it. A story you could not have imagined yourself seeing. People are
:59:21. > :59:28.coming to terms with it and there's sense of pride. The pride in the
:59:29. > :59:32.people that work for the Council and the emergency services but also the
:59:33. > :59:38.Glaswegian people wanting to do the right thing. That is some comfort
:59:39. > :59:45.but there's no doubt that this period will be about coming to terms
:59:46. > :59:49.with that. I just hope anybody in my own constituency who feels that I
:59:50. > :59:54.could help in any way, I will and that is true across the political
:59:55. > :00:00.spectrum. We have people need help we will make sure they get help and
:00:01. > :00:02.are supported and we know everybody in the responsibility in this
:00:03. > :00:07.process has stepped up to the mark remarkably. For those who do not
:00:08. > :00:13.know that part of Glasgow, something of a Glasgow institution in terms of
:00:14. > :00:20.the live music and the people that Locklear. I used to go to the May
:00:21. > :00:25.Day marches and demonstrations and that was a place you would go when
:00:26. > :00:34.on the way back. People from the courts go there as well, and it was
:00:35. > :00:40.warm, kind and funny. An entertaining Glasgow pub. It is a
:00:41. > :00:46.landmark in Glasgow and the place people now, and now those pictures
:00:47. > :00:50.are just incredible, but in all of this we have to reflect that for
:00:51. > :00:56.some people with is not just a story but something that has changed their
:00:57. > :01:00.lives forever. Thank you. 14 people remain in hospitals across
:01:01. > :01:02.the city with what are described as serious injuries. The Medical
:01:03. > :01:05.Director of Greater Glasgow Health Board, Dr Jennifer Armstrong, said
:01:06. > :01:08.in the main people were suffering from head and chest injuries, long
:01:09. > :01:15.bone-fractures and lacerations. Laura Maxwell is outside Glasgow
:01:16. > :01:23.Royal Infirmary. What is being said there was
:01:24. > :01:26.morning? This was one of the hospitals in Glasgow where the
:01:27. > :01:32.casualties were taken on Friday evening. We now 32 casualties where
:01:33. > :01:36.originally taken to hospital and 18 have been discharged. The official
:01:37. > :01:42.figure is that 14 remain in hospital, some seriously injured,
:01:43. > :01:47.but as we have been hearing that situation is changing. The first
:01:48. > :01:55.Minister Alex Salmond says 12 remain in hospital with three in intensive
:01:56. > :02:00.care. We also heard that an ambulance has just left the scene
:02:01. > :02:08.and made its way south of the lover, and that means the medics and admin
:02:09. > :02:15.staff must of course still remain on stand-by because many people are
:02:16. > :02:20.seeing this as a recovery operation but they are there's still some slim
:02:21. > :02:26.hope people can be taken out and brought to these emergency units.
:02:27. > :02:30.When a major incident is confirmed, hospitals going to a locked down and
:02:31. > :02:34.no other casualties were brought here, soap actress Julie the
:02:35. > :02:45.accident and emergency department was very quiet. -- so actually. The
:02:46. > :02:53.one vehicle with flashing lights was the Glasgow blood donation car.
:02:54. > :02:58.Staff responded very well and that is something being said of services
:02:59. > :03:03.across the city, but we had people volunteering to comment even know
:03:04. > :03:08.what was the night off. I spoke briefly to some of those staff as
:03:09. > :03:14.they left the hospital around two o'clock in the morning. The medical
:03:15. > :03:19.director of NHS greater Glasgow and Clyde has paid tribute to all the
:03:20. > :03:27.staff involved, many of whom came in on the night off. The staff have
:03:28. > :03:33.said they are used to dealing with these sort of incidents but it is
:03:34. > :03:37.not until a period after the incident they get time to pause and
:03:38. > :03:42.deal with what they have seen. The injuries we are talking about our
:03:43. > :03:48.head and chest injuries, compressions and lacerations and
:03:49. > :03:53.fractures to arms and legs. The sort of injuries you would expect to see
:03:54. > :04:00.in a crash situation like this. We have also heard the Glasgow blood
:04:01. > :04:06.relations service open their doors this morning, and even small things
:04:07. > :04:10.like a Glasgow taxi companies saying yesterday if relatives were
:04:11. > :04:15.struggling to get transport to hospitals, to give them a fallen and
:04:16. > :04:20.they would bring them up here for free. -- a phone. As you might
:04:21. > :04:27.imagine this morning's newspapers are full of details of
:04:28. > :04:33.Starting with the Sunday Times, eight dead, 14 seriously hurt. They
:04:34. > :04:40.have descriptions from witnesses talking about how they heard a loud
:04:41. > :04:44.bang followed by falling debris as the bar filled with dust and smoke
:04:45. > :04:51.as people fought to find the exit. A simple headline on the front of the
:04:52. > :04:58.Sunday Herald. The picture shows firefighters working through the
:04:59. > :05:01.night at the Clutha Vaults. Lots of eyewitness testimony, lots of people
:05:02. > :05:05.talking about their desire for news. One woman inside the Sunday Herald
:05:06. > :05:09.talking about her aunt and uncle who go to the pub every Friday, but no
:05:10. > :05:13.one has come home, she tells the paper. I've checked that the houses
:05:14. > :05:19.and the hospitals but there is no sign of them. The front page of
:05:20. > :05:22.Scotland on Sunday. Eight die in pub crash tragedy. They talk about the
:05:23. > :05:28.fact 14 people are still seriously ill after the police helicopter fell
:05:29. > :05:30.onto the Clutha bar and the pictures showing the rescue operation with
:05:31. > :05:36.firefighters and those who had emerged from the pub. The sun on
:05:37. > :05:47.Sunday, a simple headline, one word, into. Pictures of some of those who
:05:48. > :05:56.have been named as victims -- entombed. The Sunday mail, horror at
:05:57. > :05:59.the Clutha, pictures of the daytime operation here. They have pictures
:06:00. > :06:06.of some of those who have been named locally as victims of this tragedy.
:06:07. > :06:11.Horror at the Clutha is the headline. I'm joined now by Gillian
:06:12. > :06:14.Bowditch, who is a columnist and feature writer for the Sunday Times
:06:15. > :06:17.in Scotland, and by George Kerevan, who is a political commentator. Good
:06:18. > :06:20.afternoon to both of you. We have just looked at some of the coverage
:06:21. > :06:26.there and I wonder what you make of what you've seen. Fairly harrowing
:06:27. > :06:30.testimony, George. What I thought is that the tragedy brought out how
:06:31. > :06:34.good the Scottish pressure could be. Immediate news does come from the
:06:35. > :06:37.television, but the Scottish press were very good at digging in and
:06:38. > :06:40.getting the photographs and the street interviews, getting the
:06:41. > :06:47.background and getting round the coverage. Those photographs are very
:06:48. > :06:51.moving. Yes, very dramatic and a sense of the city coming together
:06:52. > :06:55.and a sense of community. You get the human stories behind the
:06:56. > :06:58.tragedy. It is heartbreaking and devastating for the families
:06:59. > :07:03.involved. You get a real sense of emotion. And a sense of common
:07:04. > :07:05.humanity and the sense of people pulling together. At the end of the
:07:06. > :07:08.week where we had the White Paper and the politics have been a bit
:07:09. > :07:14.fractious, it's terrible that this has happened, but it reminds us that
:07:15. > :07:20.what binds us together is more than what separates us. The focus in the
:07:21. > :07:23.newspapers today very much on the human stories. I mention a story
:07:24. > :07:27.from the Sunday Herald, the tragic story of the woman still waiting for
:07:28. > :07:32.a news of her aunt and uncle, and there will be many other people in
:07:33. > :07:35.similar positions. It was fascinating to read of the
:07:36. > :07:40.cross-section of people in Glasgow who were in the pub. It reminds you
:07:41. > :07:44.that Glasgow is a very convivial city. The pubs are not stratified
:07:45. > :07:48.with one class here or there, it brought together a lot of people,
:07:49. > :07:54.which magnified the tragedy on Friday. I'm also struck by the fact
:07:55. > :07:57.that many people are named in the newspapers, and this is a change in
:07:58. > :08:01.terms of how we deal with the tragedy. People have been talking on
:08:02. > :08:04.social media about those who have died. Previously we would have had
:08:05. > :08:11.to wake the police, but now these names are emerging. -- had to wait
:08:12. > :08:15.for the police. Twitter was incredible at 10:30pm, and it was
:08:16. > :08:19.incredible with people talking about what they saw from the rooms around,
:08:20. > :08:22.the sense of shock at seeing the helicopter. A huge variety of
:08:23. > :08:29.eyewitness testimony there. And you have the instance of people who are
:08:30. > :08:38.missing, putting appeals on social media. It is very fast paced.
:08:39. > :08:44.Indeed, we have been reporting this morning about the comments on
:08:45. > :08:52.Twitter, the one officially named victim, his daughter, very moving.
:08:53. > :08:58.It confirms that nothing will ever happen in the world good or bad ever
:08:59. > :09:02.again because people can report it themselves now. What is your sense
:09:03. > :09:06.of how politicians have dealt with all of this? We look for them for
:09:07. > :09:10.leadership that they are human beings as well. They have do deal
:09:11. > :09:14.with perhaps more detail than we are getting at times. I think they've
:09:15. > :09:18.done well across the board, across the parties. Alex Salmond has summed
:09:19. > :09:22.up the mood of the nation. And Nicola Sturgeon. They have both been
:09:23. > :09:26.incredibly busy this weekend I thought Nicola did very well in the
:09:27. > :09:30.televised debate, but she looked really tired. It's been a long week
:09:31. > :09:38.for a lot of politicians. They have done us proud, actually, Joanne
:09:39. > :09:41.Lamont as well, the Queen, David Cameron -- Johann Lamont. Just that
:09:42. > :09:48.sense of loss everybody feels. What is your sense of how the politicians
:09:49. > :09:53.have handled this, George? A situation like this is always
:09:54. > :09:58.dangerous politicians. The emergency is handled by the emergency
:09:59. > :10:02.services, unless it is a mega event, then the politician can only stand
:10:03. > :10:06.by and make the right kind of comment. And then sum up the mood of
:10:07. > :10:11.the nation. And I actually think Alex Salmond did that very well
:10:12. > :10:17.yesterday, putting St Andrews Day in the context of what was going on.
:10:18. > :10:21.Questions being asked now about what happened here, and clearly an
:10:22. > :10:24.investigation will happen. There will be a degree of pressure on
:10:25. > :10:30.politicians to come up with some answers to reassure the public. I
:10:31. > :10:34.think so. Once the aftermath clears away, and it will dominate the news
:10:35. > :10:37.headlines next week, the Independent on Sunday has a good story about
:10:38. > :10:41.looking at the safety concerns around the make of the helicopter.
:10:42. > :10:46.There were two directives from the aviation authority about it. It was
:10:47. > :10:50.grounded in 2012. The focus will be on what happened, why it happened as
:10:51. > :10:54.we've had some helicopter disasters in the North Sea. Growing concerns
:10:55. > :10:59.about these vehicles, and the politicians will have to come up
:11:00. > :11:02.with an answer and ensure that people are reassured. It is a
:11:03. > :11:10.cliche, but these are war curse -- walk forces for the emergency
:11:11. > :11:13.services -- workhorses. They are lifelines in Scotland. It remind you
:11:14. > :11:17.that helicopters are dangerous machines. They are more dangerous
:11:18. > :11:25.and complicated beasts than the aeroplanes flying on holiday.
:11:26. > :11:27.Helicopters operate close to the ground and mechanically are
:11:28. > :11:31.fiendishly complicated devices and lots of things can go wrong with the
:11:32. > :11:35.linkages. Because they operate close to the ground, you are in turbulent
:11:36. > :11:39.air, there is a limited time for a pilot to get out of danger something
:11:40. > :11:42.goes wrong. Even when he comes close to the ground, the way air
:11:43. > :11:48.compacts, the rotors can lose traction. You need really good
:11:49. > :11:52.pilots and you have to keep on top of the mechanics of the machines. I
:11:53. > :11:56.think there will be a lot of discussion about how we can manage
:11:57. > :12:00.helicopters from now on. Although the tragic outcome to this is there,
:12:01. > :12:06.there is praising the newspapers for the pilot, and a realisation it
:12:07. > :12:10.could have been a lot worse -- there is praise in the newspapers. You are
:12:11. > :12:14.right, it could have been worse. The fuel tank could have exploded. It
:12:15. > :12:18.could have been a terrible tragedy. There were 120 people in the pub and
:12:19. > :12:25.most of them walked out of it. A real sense of the disaster scenario,
:12:26. > :12:28.with Glasgow coming together. There are three hospitals nearby.
:12:29. > :12:34.Everything seemed to go smoothly. And the test of the integrated Fire
:12:35. > :12:38.service. We had fire expertise from all over Scotland able to come into
:12:39. > :12:41.the scenario and clearly, the police, they are suffering because
:12:42. > :12:47.it's their colleagues who have died. It does seem to have been an
:12:48. > :12:51.exemplary rescue situation. Glasgow city council say they are opening a
:12:52. > :12:55.book of condolence in one -- at 1pm for people to go along and sign up
:12:56. > :12:59.the chambers. A sense of people coming together seems to be
:13:00. > :13:02.important at this time. It is. We are coming to the end of the year
:13:03. > :13:05.and people will think about where they have been and what has been
:13:06. > :13:09.happening. One did not want this to happen, but in a way it has made us
:13:10. > :13:14.pause in the middle of what has been a long political campaign about the
:13:15. > :13:21.referendum, and we are all human beings. A chance for people to think
:13:22. > :13:24.about the work of the emergency services. Johann Lamont saying that
:13:25. > :13:28.while people were out enjoying Friday night there were people ready
:13:29. > :13:32.and poised to keep the country safe. Yes, and it sounds like the
:13:33. > :13:35.emergency services did really well, but you have the situation where
:13:36. > :13:39.people are offering their services, taxi drivers offering to take people
:13:40. > :13:44.to hospital to visit relatives. A real sense of Glasgow at its best.
:13:45. > :13:50.Glasgow has a reputation as a city which is very convivial, very
:13:51. > :13:54.community minded, and we really saw that with this and I think it will
:13:55. > :13:58.continue this weekend. As George says, when the shops of all, people
:13:59. > :14:02.think about Christmas, it is very poignant and distressing that it
:14:03. > :14:08.should have happened so close to Christmas. The whole notion of a
:14:09. > :14:12.Glasgow spirit, one would hope the same would be true if this happened
:14:13. > :14:16.anywhere else in Scotland. But there is something about Glasgow that is
:14:17. > :14:20.special, I think. Indeed. That's all from the us this week. There's an
:14:21. > :14:23.update on all of the days news on Reporting Scotland here on BBC One
:14:24. > :14:26.Scotland tonight at 6:10pm and continuing coverage on the BBC
:14:27. > :14:28.Scotland news website. I'll be back at the same time next week. Until
:14:29. > :14:31.then, goodbye.