:01:39. > :01:44.of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They
:01:45. > :01:51.will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick
:01:52. > :01:55.Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories,
:01:56. > :02:00.the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on
:02:01. > :02:05.welfare after the next election. You cannot say, as the Conservatives
:02:06. > :02:08.are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will
:02:09. > :02:12.not make any additional contributions from their taxes if
:02:13. > :02:15.there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to
:02:16. > :02:23.balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy
:02:24. > :02:28.people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the
:02:29. > :02:32.hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear
:02:33. > :02:37.to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make
:02:38. > :02:40.additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public
:02:41. > :02:46.finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories
:02:47. > :02:52.a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive
:02:53. > :02:59.differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two
:03:00. > :03:04.years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is
:03:05. > :03:08.what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying
:03:09. > :03:14.to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the
:03:15. > :03:20.polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will
:03:21. > :03:23.do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined
:03:24. > :03:29.with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There
:03:30. > :03:33.was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the
:03:34. > :03:38.Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent
:03:39. > :03:42.macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals
:03:43. > :03:47.with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was
:03:48. > :03:52.more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have
:03:53. > :03:56.to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,
:03:57. > :04:00.but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was
:04:01. > :04:04.foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a
:04:05. > :04:10.coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I
:04:11. > :04:17.cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about
:04:18. > :04:20.principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed
:04:21. > :04:26.Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a
:04:27. > :04:32.joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed
:04:33. > :04:37.Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood
:04:38. > :04:41.the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he
:04:42. > :04:45.said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels
:04:46. > :04:50.liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition, and
:04:51. > :04:56.maybe those winds will haunt him all the way to the general election. But
:04:57. > :04:59.he feels liberated, he says, we will be the restraining influence on both
:05:00. > :05:04.the Conservatives, who cannot insure that the recovery is fair, and the
:05:05. > :05:07.Labour Party, that do not have economic red ability. He feels
:05:08. > :05:13.relaxed, and that is why he is attacking the Tories and appearing
:05:14. > :05:19.pretty relaxed. He could also be falling into a trap. The Tories
:05:20. > :05:24.think what they suggesting on welfare cuts is possible. The more
:05:25. > :05:30.he attacks it, the more Tories will say, if you gave us an overall
:05:31. > :05:33.majority, he is the one it. He keeps taking these ostensibly on popular
:05:34. > :05:37.positions and it only makes sense when you talk to them behind the
:05:38. > :05:42.scenes, they are going after a tiny slice of the electorate, 20%, who
:05:43. > :05:49.are open to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and their views are a bit more
:05:50. > :05:54.left liberal than the bulk of the public. There is a perverse logic in
:05:55. > :06:01.them aggressively targeting that section of voters. In the end, ten
:06:02. > :06:06.macro's problem, if you do not like what this coalition has been doing,
:06:07. > :06:11.you will not vote for somebody who was part of it, you will vote for
:06:12. > :06:18.the Labour Party. The Tories are too nasty, Labour are to spendthrift,
:06:19. > :06:21.Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has gone to Labour, and that is what
:06:22. > :06:28.could hand the largest party to Labour. That small number of voters,
:06:29. > :06:32.soft Tory voters, the problem for the Liberal Democrats is, if you
:06:33. > :06:36.fight, as they did, three general elections to the left of the Labour
:06:37. > :06:39.Party, and at the end of the third, you find yourself in Colour Vision
:06:40. > :06:47.with the Conservatives, you have a problem.
:06:48. > :06:54.Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has had to deal with aid riot at HM
:06:55. > :06:55.Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike and unhappy probation officers
:06:56. > :07:12.taking industrial action. Prison works. It ensures that we are
:07:13. > :07:22.protected from murderers, muggers and rapists. It makes many who are
:07:23. > :07:27.tempted to commit crime think twice. Traditional Tory policy on criminal
:07:28. > :07:31.justice and prisons has been tough talking and tough dealing. Not only
:07:32. > :07:36.have they tended to think what they are offering is right, but have had
:07:37. > :07:40.the feeling, you thinking what they thinking. But nearly two decades
:07:41. > :07:46.after Michael Howard's message, his party, in Colour Vision government,
:07:47. > :07:50.is finding prison has to work like everything else within today's
:07:51. > :07:54.financial realities. The Justice Secretary for two years after the
:07:55. > :08:01.election had previous in this field. Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a
:08:02. > :08:07.change of direction. Just binding up more and more people for longer
:08:08. > :08:17.without actively seeking to change them is, in my opinion, what you
:08:18. > :08:20.would expect of Victorian England. The key to keeping people out of
:08:21. > :08:27.prison now, it seems, is giving them in a job, on release. Ironically,
:08:28. > :08:31.Ken Clarke was released from his job 15 months ago and replaced by Chris
:08:32. > :08:37.Grayling. But here, within HM Prison Liverpool, Timpson has been working
:08:38. > :08:42.since 2009 with chosen offenders to offer training and the chance of a
:08:43. > :08:46.job. Before you ask, they do not teach them keep cutting in a
:08:47. > :08:49.category B prison. The Academy is deliberately meant to look like a
:08:50. > :08:56.company store, not a prison. It helps. You forget where you are at
:08:57. > :09:00.times, it feels weird, going back to a wing at the end of the day. It is
:09:01. > :09:07.different. A different atmosphere. That is why people like it. Timpson
:09:08. > :09:11.have six academies in prisons, training prisoners inside, and
:09:12. > :09:16.outside they offer jobs to ex-offenders, who make up 8% of
:09:17. > :09:21.their staff. It has been hard work persuading some governors that such
:09:22. > :09:25.cooperation can work. I have seen a dramatic change positively, working
:09:26. > :09:34.with prisoners, particularly in the last five years. They understand now
:09:35. > :09:37.what business's expectation is. Timpson do not just employ
:09:38. > :09:43.offenders, but as one ex-prisoner released in February and now
:09:44. > :09:48.managing his own store says, the point is many others will not employ
:09:49. > :09:53.offenders at all. From what I have experienced, on one hand, you have
:09:54. > :09:57.somebody with a criminal conviction, on the other, somebody who does not
:09:58. > :10:01.have one, so it is a case of favouring those who have a clean
:10:02. > :10:07.record. Anybody with a criminal conviction is passed to one side and
:10:08. > :10:10.overlooked. That, amongst myriad other changes to prison and how we
:10:11. > :10:15.deal with prisoners, is on the desk of the man at the top. Ever since
:10:16. > :10:19.Chris Grayling became Secretary of State for Justice, he has wanted to
:10:20. > :10:23.signal a change of direction of policy, and he is in a hurry to make
:10:24. > :10:27.radical reforms across the board, from size and types of prisons to
:10:28. > :10:31.probation services, reoffending rates, legal aid services, and there
:10:32. > :10:34.has been opposition to that from groups who do not agree with him.
:10:35. > :10:38.But what might actually shackle him is none of that. It is the fact that
:10:39. > :10:43.he is in government with a party that does not always agree with him,
:10:44. > :10:46.he has to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights,
:10:47. > :10:53.and in those famous words, there is no money left. We would like to go
:10:54. > :10:57.further and faster. I would like him too, but we are where we are. If the
:10:58. > :11:01.Liberal Democrats want to be wiped out at the next election based on
:11:02. > :11:05.what they believe, that is fair enough. We accept there has to be
:11:06. > :11:15.savings, but there are areas where we feel that there is ideological
:11:16. > :11:18.driven policy-making going on, and privatising may not save any money
:11:19. > :11:24.at all, and so does not make any sense. The question is, we'll all of
:11:25. > :11:37.that means some of Chris Grayling's reforms need closer inspection?
:11:38. > :11:44.Chris Grayling joins me now. Welcome. We have a lot to cover. If
:11:45. > :11:49.you get your way, your own personal way, will be next Tory manifesto
:11:50. > :11:53.promise to withdraw from the European Convention of human
:11:54. > :12:00.rights? It will contain a promise for radical changes. We have to
:12:01. > :12:06.curtail the role of the European court here, replace our human rights
:12:07. > :12:10.act from the late 1990s, make our Supreme Court our Supreme Court,
:12:11. > :12:14.they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we
:12:15. > :12:19.have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and
:12:20. > :12:23.responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do
:12:24. > :12:29.not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last
:12:30. > :12:38.September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is
:12:39. > :12:42.clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as
:12:43. > :12:46.long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in
:12:47. > :12:53.Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency --
:12:54. > :12:56.recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will
:12:57. > :13:01.publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a
:13:02. > :13:06.direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will
:13:07. > :13:09.mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the
:13:10. > :13:16.European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept
:13:17. > :13:20.that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform,
:13:21. > :13:23.but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we
:13:24. > :13:26.need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the
:13:27. > :13:32.different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We
:13:33. > :13:37.are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our
:13:38. > :13:43.colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our
:13:44. > :13:47.decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not,
:13:48. > :13:52.in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will
:13:53. > :13:54.see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that
:13:55. > :14:00.deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the
:14:01. > :14:05.Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point,
:14:06. > :14:10.we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is
:14:11. > :14:17.what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But
:14:18. > :14:20.how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we
:14:21. > :14:24.will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail
:14:25. > :14:31.the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The
:14:32. > :14:35.decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you
:14:36. > :14:37.sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney
:14:38. > :15:03.General says. I would be asking Strasberg a
:15:04. > :15:08.different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is
:15:09. > :15:12.enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if
:15:13. > :15:17.this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale
:15:18. > :15:20.reform in the court tomorrow, I'm not sure it is going to happen which
:15:21. > :15:28.is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country.
:15:29. > :15:33.Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My
:15:34. > :15:39.mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say
:15:40. > :15:43.where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area
:15:44. > :15:48.where we don't agree as parties, but in my view the public in this
:15:49. > :15:53.country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95
:15:54. > :15:57.Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives
:15:58. > :16:01.the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union
:16:02. > :16:07.law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you
:16:08. > :16:13.couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the
:16:14. > :16:24.letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced
:16:25. > :16:29.my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where
:16:30. > :16:33.one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the
:16:34. > :16:40.concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our
:16:41. > :16:43.membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system
:16:44. > :16:47.which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation
:16:48. > :16:53.where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European
:16:54. > :17:01.Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the
:17:02. > :17:06.right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan
:17:07. > :17:10.Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country
:17:11. > :17:16.should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare
:17:17. > :17:21.benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that
:17:22. > :17:26.before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to
:17:27. > :17:31.take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made
:17:32. > :17:35.a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels
:17:36. > :17:39.trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for
:17:40. > :17:44.change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind
:17:45. > :17:48.Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a
:17:49. > :17:52.clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to
:17:53. > :18:00.get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not
:18:01. > :18:06.acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other
:18:07. > :18:12.smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has
:18:13. > :18:17.happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made
:18:18. > :18:24.about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will
:18:25. > :18:29.be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and
:18:30. > :18:35.private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood
:18:36. > :18:39.is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but
:18:40. > :18:47.the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison
:18:48. > :18:51.of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales, a
:18:52. > :18:57.big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the
:18:58. > :19:03.last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood
:19:04. > :19:08.and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would
:19:09. > :19:13.you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning
:19:14. > :19:19.permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few
:19:20. > :19:25.years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with
:19:26. > :19:30.dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is
:19:31. > :19:34.acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of
:19:35. > :19:41.contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the
:19:42. > :19:45.Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again.
:19:46. > :19:51.They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer.
:19:52. > :19:58.What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 2000
:19:59. > :20:08.capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every
:20:09. > :20:11.private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are
:20:12. > :20:16.quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the
:20:17. > :20:23.barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What
:20:24. > :20:29.happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid
:20:30. > :20:33.and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When
:20:34. > :20:39.the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were
:20:40. > :20:44.operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating
:20:45. > :20:47.normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across
:20:48. > :20:49.government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over
:20:50. > :20:55.?2 billion on legal aid at the back lately but we are spending over
:20:56. > :21:00.moment at a time when budgets are becoming tougher. You issued
:21:01. > :21:07.misleading figures about criminal barristers, you said that 25% of
:21:08. > :21:13.them earn over ?100,000 per year but that is their turnover, including
:21:14. > :21:18.VAT. 33% of that money goes on their expenses, they have to pay for their
:21:19. > :21:24.own pensions and insurance. People are not getting wealthy out of doing
:21:25. > :21:30.this work. I don't publish figures, our statisticians do, with caveats
:21:31. > :21:33.in place explaining the situation. Where you have high-cost cases,
:21:34. > :21:38.where we have taken the most difficult decisions, we have tried
:21:39. > :21:48.hard in taking difficult decisions to focus the impact higher up the
:21:49. > :21:54.income scale. But do you accept their take-home pay is not 100,000?
:21:55. > :21:58.I accept they have to take out other costs, although some things like
:21:59. > :22:10.travelling to the court, you and I and everyone else has to pay for
:22:11. > :22:15.travelling to work. That is net of VAT. We have had a variety of
:22:16. > :22:22.figures published, some are and some are not. Let's be clear, the gross
:22:23. > :22:26.figures for fees from legal payments include 20% VAT. On a week when even
:22:27. > :22:37.a cabinet minister can be fitted up by the police, don't we all need
:22:38. > :22:40.well-financed legal aid? There is no chance that as a result
:22:41. > :22:52.well-financed legal aid? There is no changes people will end up in court
:22:53. > :22:55.unable to defend themselves. We have said in exceptional circumstances,
:22:56. > :22:59.if you haven't got any money to pay, we will support you, but there is no
:23:00. > :23:04.question of anyone ended up in court, facing a criminal charge,
:23:05. > :23:10.where they haven't got a lawyer to defend them. Let's look at how so
:23:11. > :23:16.many dangerous criminals have managed to avoid jail. Here are the
:23:17. > :23:25.figures for 2012. Half the people for sexual assault found guilty, not
:23:26. > :23:32.jailed. I thought you were meant to be tough on crime? Those figures
:23:33. > :23:37.predate my time, but since 2010 the number of those people going to jail
:23:38. > :23:42.has been increasing steadily. If you put the figures for 2010 on there,
:23:43. > :23:48.you would see a significant change. We will never be in a position where
:23:49. > :23:52.everybody who commits violence will end up in jail. The courts will
:23:53. > :23:56.often decided to his more appropriate to give a community
:23:57. > :24:01.sentence, but the trend is towards longer sentences and more people
:24:02. > :24:08.going to jail. That maybe but it is even quite hard to get sent to jail
:24:09. > :24:13.if you do these things a lot, again and again. In 2012 one criminal
:24:14. > :24:23.avoided being sent to jail despite having more than 300 offences to his
:24:24. > :24:27.name. 36,000 avoided going to jail despite 15 previous offences. That
:24:28. > :24:33.is why we are taking steps to toughen up the system. Last autumn
:24:34. > :24:38.we scrapped repeat cautions. You could find people getting dozens. As
:24:39. > :24:41.of last autumn, we have scrapped repeat cautions. If you commit the
:24:42. > :24:46.same offence twice within a two-year repeat cautions. If you commit the
:24:47. > :24:52.period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to
:24:53. > :24:58.jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another
:24:59. > :25:05.34,000 prison places. You haven't got room to put bad people in jail?
:25:06. > :25:10.The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the
:25:11. > :25:16.decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail
:25:17. > :25:21.sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the
:25:22. > :25:25.most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if
:25:26. > :25:31.you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's
:25:32. > :25:38.right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick
:25:39. > :25:46.Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare
:25:47. > :25:50.cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the
:25:51. > :25:59.lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these
:26:00. > :26:04.cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look
:26:05. > :26:12.at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today,
:26:13. > :26:18.after people have left school or college, the live for a time with
:26:19. > :26:22.their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take
:26:23. > :26:26.that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying
:26:27. > :26:31.you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the
:26:32. > :26:34.road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by
:26:35. > :26:42.definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a
:26:43. > :26:48.case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the
:26:49. > :26:52.cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax
:26:53. > :27:00.rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last
:27:01. > :27:06.government. The amount of tax... There is no more expected of the
:27:07. > :27:10.rich. We will clearly look at future policy and work out how best to
:27:11. > :27:15.distribute the tax burden in this country and it is not for me to
:27:16. > :27:21.second-guess George Osborne's future plans, but we need to look at for
:27:22. > :27:27.example housing benefit for the under 25s. Is it right for those who
:27:28. > :27:33.are not working for the state to provide accommodation for them?
:27:34. > :27:35.Thank you for being with us. All three major parties at
:27:36. > :27:38.Westminster agree there's an urgent need to build more homes for
:27:39. > :27:41.Britain's growing population. But how they get built, and where, looks
:27:42. > :27:43.set to become a major battle ground in the run-up to the next general
:27:44. > :27:46.election. Although 16% more house-builds were
:27:47. > :27:49.started in 2012/13 than the previous year, the number actually completed
:27:50. > :27:56.fell by 8% - the lowest level in peacetime since 1920. The Office for
:27:57. > :27:59.National Statistics estimates that between now and 2021 we should
:28:00. > :28:06.expect 220,000 new households to be created every year. At his party's
:28:07. > :28:13.conference last autumn, Ed Miliband promised a Labour government would
:28:14. > :28:18.massively increase house-building. I will have a clear aim but by the end
:28:19. > :28:23.of the parliament, Britain will be building 200,000 homes per year,
:28:24. > :28:28.more than at any time for a generation. That is how we make
:28:29. > :28:31.Britain better than this. The Labour leader also says he'd give urban
:28:32. > :28:34.councils a "right to grow" so rural neighbours can't block expansion and
:28:35. > :28:38.force developers with unused land to use it or lose it. The Government
:28:39. > :28:41.has been pursuing its own ideas, including loan guarantees for
:28:42. > :28:45.developers and a new homes bonus to boost new house-building. But David
:28:46. > :28:48.Cameron could have trouble keeping his supporters on side - this week
:28:49. > :28:50.the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi criticised planning reforms for
:28:51. > :28:57.causing "physical harm" to the countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile
:28:58. > :29:12.prefers a radical solution - brand new garden cities in the south east
:29:13. > :29:15.of England. In a speech tomorrow, Labour's shadow housing minister
:29:16. > :29:17.Emma Reynolds will give more details of how Labour would boost
:29:18. > :29:22.house-building, and she joins me now. It is not the politicians to
:29:23. > :29:27.blame, it is the lack of house-builders? We want a vibrant
:29:28. > :29:33.building industry, and at the moment that industry is dominated by big
:29:34. > :29:36.house-builders. I want to see a more diverse and competitive industry,
:29:37. > :29:44.where self build plays a greater role. In France over 60% of new
:29:45. > :29:49.homes are built by self builders, but small builders build more homes
:29:50. > :29:53.as well. 25 years ago they were building two thirds of new homes,
:29:54. > :29:57.now they are not building even a third of new homes. That's because
:29:58. > :30:00.land policies have been so restrictive that it is only the big
:30:01. > :30:05.companies who can afford to buy the land, so little land is being
:30:06. > :30:10.released for house building. I agree, there are some fundamental
:30:11. > :30:13.structural problems with the land market and that is why we have said
:30:14. > :30:17.there doesn't just need to be tinkering around the edges, there
:30:18. > :30:22.needs to be real reforms to make sure that small builders and self
:30:23. > :30:27.build and custom-built have access to land. They are saying they have
:30:28. > :30:33.problems with access to land and finance. At the end of the day it
:30:34. > :30:39.will not be self, small builders who reach your target, it will be big
:30:40. > :30:43.builders. I think it is pretty shameful that in Western Europe the
:30:44. > :30:52.new houses built in the UK are smaller than our neighbours. But
:30:53. > :30:56.isn't not the land problem? France is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and
:30:57. > :31:04.we are and that is not a problem for them. There is a perception we are
:31:05. > :31:10.going to build on the countryside, but not even 10% is on the
:31:11. > :31:18.countryside. There is enough for us to have our golf courses. There is
:31:19. > :31:22.enough other land for us to build on that is not golf courses. The
:31:23. > :31:26.planning minister has said he wants to build our National Parks, I am
:31:27. > :31:33.not suggesting that. The single biggest land border is the public
:31:34. > :31:37.sector. It is not. There are great opportunities for releasing public
:31:38. > :31:41.land, that is why I have been asking the government, they say they are
:31:42. > :31:45.going to release and of public land for tens of thousands of new homes
:31:46. > :31:50.to be built, but they say they are not monitoring how many houses are
:31:51. > :31:57.being built on the site. When your leader says to landowners, housing
:31:58. > :32:03.development owners, either use the land or lose it, in what way will
:32:04. > :32:08.they lose it? Will you confiscated? This is about strengthening the hand
:32:09. > :32:13.of local authorities, and they say to us that in some cases,
:32:14. > :32:17.house-builders are sitting on land. In those cases, we would give the
:32:18. > :32:23.power to local authorities to escalate fees. This would be the
:32:24. > :32:28.compulsory purchase orders, a matter of last resort, and you would hope
:32:29. > :32:35.that by strengthening the hand of local authorities, you could get the
:32:36. > :32:37.house-builders to start building the homes that people want. Would you
:32:38. > :32:43.compulsory purchase it? We would compulsory purchase it? We would
:32:44. > :32:49.give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees,
:32:50. > :32:52.the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase
:32:53. > :32:53.orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build
:32:54. > :32:58.orders to sell the land on to a houses that we need. Can you name
:32:59. > :33:01.one report that has come back in recent years that shows that
:33:02. > :33:07.hoarding of land by house-builders is a major problem? The IMF, the
:33:08. > :33:09.Conservative mayor of London and the Local Government Association are
:33:10. > :33:14.telling us that there is a problem with land hoarding. Therefore, we
:33:15. > :33:19.have said, where there is land with planning permission, and if plots
:33:20. > :33:24.are being sat on... Boris Johnson says there are 180,000 plots in
:33:25. > :33:32.London being sat on. We need to make sure the house-builders are building
:33:33. > :33:35.the homes that young families need. They get planning permission and
:33:36. > :33:38.sell it on to the developer. There is a whole degree of complicity, but
:33:39. > :33:44.there is another problem before that. That is around transparency
:33:45. > :33:47.about land options. There is agricultural land that
:33:48. > :33:54.house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.
:33:55. > :34:00.Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the
:34:01. > :34:05.south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most
:34:06. > :43:36.reluctant to do it, will you in central government
:43:37. > :43:38.reluctant to do it, will you in to the London exchequer. I do not
:43:39. > :43:43.think anybody seriously believe George Osborne would have any
:43:44. > :43:50.intention of handing it back to Scotland to finance the childcare
:43:51. > :43:55.programme. You will maintain free personal care and prescriptions,
:43:56. > :43:57.increase tax credits, these are a few of the things you have
:43:58. > :44:05.promised, the money will have to go a long way? Be ?100 million as an
:44:06. > :44:09.estimate of the initial costs of childcare which is covered by the
:44:10. > :44:15.other changes we make in the White Paper. You seem to suggest there is
:44:16. > :44:18.a long delay in these matters. Changes in the female participation
:44:19. > :44:28.in the labour market can occur quickly. Over the last year there
:44:29. > :44:34.has been a 3.5% rise. These changes can take place very quickly but our
:44:35. > :44:38.point is that we will only get to that level of participation in the
:44:39. > :44:44.Labour Party, which Sweden has already achieved, if we have the
:44:45. > :44:49.childcare policies to back it up. This transformation we talk about in
:44:50. > :44:54.an independent Scotland would keep that environment. It is a
:44:55. > :45:00.tremendously positive discussion to have about the economic gain of
:45:01. > :45:05.progressive policies. It is in terms of how you reach it with finance. If
:45:06. > :45:11.the number of women working rose by 2% we would see a rise of ?200
:45:12. > :45:18.million in income tax receipts, what salary is that based on? That model
:45:19. > :45:22.talks about the benefits to the economy but you will also find in
:45:23. > :45:28.the paper published today that for an average wage then the benefit in
:45:29. > :45:35.terms not just of income tax but the range of taxes people in employment
:45:36. > :45:43.peak, is very substantial indeed, about ?7,000. That is income tax,
:45:44. > :45:50.national insurance, tax macro -- VAT, all the things people who are
:45:51. > :45:53.not work not pay. If you take into account part-time as well as
:45:54. > :45:58.full-time working the average gross salary falls to somewhere in the
:45:59. > :46:09.region of ?17,000. There is a shortfall question --? . Their
:46:10. > :46:19.quality in the Scottish economy works through a 6% charge. You are
:46:20. > :46:25.basing that on an average wage of ?26,000, many do not earn that. Let
:46:26. > :46:31.me complete the sentence. The first figure, the ?700 million we
:46:32. > :46:35.published that paper today so that everyone can read and understand.
:46:36. > :46:39.The second is an illustration that people don't just pay income tax but
:46:40. > :46:46.national insurance and the range of other things. The ?700 million come
:46:47. > :46:51.from the equilibria model of the Scottish economy. That is what
:46:52. > :46:56.happens. With evidence for the last year, not a crystal ball or nickel
:46:57. > :47:03.and be a model but what has actually happened in the Scottish economy,
:47:04. > :47:07.60,000 more women are working, the vast majority of these extra jobs
:47:08. > :47:12.are full-time, these changes can take place in a short period of
:47:13. > :47:17.time. As soon as people are working they start paying tax, everybody
:47:18. > :47:23.knows that. To reach that 700 million figure 104,000 extra women
:47:24. > :47:29.would need to join the workforce, we did these jobs? 60,000 women have
:47:30. > :47:37.joined the workforce, are now working from the year to October
:47:38. > :47:44.last year. Which jobs well the game? 40 start, we showed the full extent
:47:45. > :47:50.of the childcare policies, 30,000 people, women and workers will be
:47:51. > :47:54.required to fully extend that policy but there is also the general effect
:47:55. > :48:00.through the economy of having that extra participation. If 60,000 more
:48:01. > :48:04.women are working in a year, in employment, not just joining the
:48:05. > :48:09.labour force, it is not unreasonable to suggest that over the period of
:48:10. > :48:14.five years we will have 100,000. 60,000 in void in one single view
:48:15. > :48:21.has already happened so 100,000 good be done in five years. The second
:48:22. > :48:24.part of the calculation published today is equally important. It is
:48:25. > :48:29.now beyond doubt that if Scotland has its own exchequer we get the
:48:30. > :48:38.benefits of that economic boost. The problem now, under devilish and that
:48:39. > :48:41.fixed Budget arrangement, you cannot finance such a policy which is why
:48:42. > :48:48.the Labour Party ended up with such a political disaster voting against
:48:49. > :48:54.school meals. That is the difference between independence on the one hand
:48:55. > :48:59.and revolution on the other. We have academics in support of the union
:49:00. > :49:03.today. The say you cannot keep charging students from elsewhere in
:49:04. > :49:09.the UK who keep studying here in the event of independence. Do you have
:49:10. > :49:18.legal advice on this? This was set out in page 200 of the White Paper.
:49:19. > :49:20.Everything in that is based on the advice we receive. Universities
:49:21. > :49:29.Scotland published last April from Anderson Strathearn how you could go
:49:30. > :49:32.around this providing an objective justification for the policy.
:49:33. > :49:37.Everything in the White Paper is consistent with the advice we
:49:38. > :49:41.received. We have advice from an independent body and it seems
:49:42. > :49:48.strange that the better together campaign were not aware of that or
:49:49. > :49:51.did not want to mention it. Just to be clear, the River President as
:49:52. > :49:57.regards legal advice and the European Union, you have legal
:49:58. > :50:04.advice on this specific issue? You do not confirm legal advice or the
:50:05. > :50:09.existence of legal advice. Why is this issue different? Can I just
:50:10. > :50:13.point out, you do not confirm the detail of legal advice or the
:50:14. > :50:18.existence of legal advice but what you can say is that the White Paper
:50:19. > :50:22.is consistent with any advice we received. That is what all
:50:23. > :50:28.governments see. I am also pointing out it is already published from
:50:29. > :50:32.universities Scotland advice that was published last year which sets
:50:33. > :50:40.out resident requirement which could be done. The White Paper examines
:50:41. > :50:44.this in page 200. That is the advantage of having published the
:50:45. > :50:48.White Paper on independence. Very many thousands of people in Scotland
:50:49. > :50:54.have taken the opportunity of reading it. Perhaps some of the
:50:55. > :51:06.Better Together campaign might do that themselves. You've campaigned
:51:07. > :51:08.for this issue but quite some time. I congratulate the Scottish
:51:09. > :51:13.Government on what they've achieved so far. I do, and I welcome what
:51:14. > :51:18.they've done this week will stop Alex Salmond and I have not always
:51:19. > :51:22.seen eye to eye on this issue and I pleased that he is changed his mind.
:51:23. > :51:28.Often, politicians get criticised when they conduct this kind of
:51:29. > :51:30.change, but this is him making the right decision, so I want to thank
:51:31. > :51:36.him for the extra childcare we will see. Secondly, there has been a big
:51:37. > :51:41.focus on getting people back to work will stop the reason we want people
:51:42. > :51:47.to do this is to give people the best start in life. Experts have
:51:48. > :51:51.told us that if you can invest before the age of three in a child's
:51:52. > :51:58.development, you can change their life chances for the rest of their
:51:59. > :52:01.life. To extend this to more children as the government wants to
:52:02. > :52:05.do, they say they need independence because they need the revenue
:52:06. > :52:10.generated from taxation will stop a point out in this paper today that
:52:11. > :52:14.under the act, women going into the labour market, the taxation would
:52:15. > :52:21.not bow to them. 80% would go to Westminster. I welcome the detail of
:52:22. > :52:28.what has been said today will stop it is a case for investing in
:52:29. > :52:32.childcare and education. He set out the economics of spend to save and
:52:33. > :52:42.that is something I welcome in this area. Actually, Scotland is lagging
:52:43. > :52:46.behind England. He said it is lagging behind because he does not
:52:47. > :52:54.have the finances to invest. Where will the money come from? It is not
:52:55. > :52:58.about power, it is about money. That is why England is ahead with
:52:59. > :53:04.two-year-old and three and four-year-olds. Alex Salmond has the
:53:05. > :53:11.money, he has the investment he could make, but he has fallen
:53:12. > :53:17.behind. So he has ?700 million that he is secreting somewhere? He is
:53:18. > :53:22.saying the rest of the UK is travelling in a different direction
:53:23. > :53:25.to Scotland. That is not a dividing line for the independence movement
:53:26. > :53:30.though. We are travelling in the same direction. I actually think all
:53:31. > :53:35.parties will be arguing for more childcare at the next action. If
:53:36. > :53:41.that was not the case, you might have an didn't, but he doesn't. We
:53:42. > :53:48.can all advance further. There is not a dividing line for
:53:49. > :53:59.independence. We've actually invested more. Look at the evidence.
:54:00. > :54:06.We don't agree with Lord Osborne 's approach -- George Osborne 's
:54:07. > :54:09.approach. What we are are doing is the evidence so far is that, even in
:54:10. > :54:16.top times, the Coalition Government has investigated -- has invested in
:54:17. > :54:23.childcare. The evidence in Scotland is that it is lagging behind. We are
:54:24. > :54:29.travelling in the same direction and that is a good ring. But in terms of
:54:30. > :54:36.welfare reform generally, would you support more? I think Nick Clegg has
:54:37. > :54:42.been clear on this. If you are going to more expenditure, we should start
:54:43. > :54:47.at the top, not the bottom. We need to get the deficit under control and
:54:48. > :54:51.we are getting big progress. So the benefit cuts have gone as far as
:54:52. > :54:58.they should, as far you hope concerned? There will be more
:54:59. > :55:05.changes, but you should start at the top, not the bottom. What with the
:55:06. > :55:12.bedroom tax doing? Well, all the parties are in favour of change, but
:55:13. > :55:16.when you do introduce reforms like this, you need to do it with actual
:55:17. > :55:23.care and make sure you got the proper mitigation measures in place.
:55:24. > :55:29.Thank you for joining us. The Labour MP Jim Murphy says the independence
:55:30. > :55:32.referendum is not the antidote to what he calls the poison of
:55:33. > :55:38.coalition policies from Westminster. In an article, he says quitting the
:55:39. > :55:42.UK would be to abandon a safety net for Scotland. A spokesman for the
:55:43. > :55:47.Conservatives said changes to welfare benefits are necessary.
:55:48. > :55:51.The former Scottish Secretary's interventions stresses that the vote
:55:52. > :55:57.should not be seen as a friend on the current UK Government or its
:55:58. > :56:01.reform policies. He argues that at one level, the SNP's case would be
:56:02. > :56:08.seductive if it wasn't so superficial. Their current taxi --
:56:09. > :56:13.tactic is to add people to vote yes to say no to the bedroom tax and
:56:14. > :56:35.David Cameron. That is not a reason to vote to leave the UK.
:56:36. > :56:43.Jim Murphy joins me now in the studio. Your article ends with you
:56:44. > :56:45.saying, why would we leave now when a fairer Scotland can still lie
:56:46. > :57:04.ahead by smack is that an acceptance that errors -- that varies and
:57:05. > :57:07.fairness in Scotland? My point is that Tory policies are a poison that
:57:08. > :57:14.Scotland does not want to drink and does not have to drink. The antidote
:57:15. > :57:24.to that poison isn't the referendum this year but the Labour government
:57:25. > :57:27.in 2015. Why vote no? A Tory government can be gone within a
:57:28. > :57:37.year. Independence is permanent, it is for ever. The MPs have tried a
:57:38. > :57:40.discussion about economy, the currency, defence, and in most cases
:57:41. > :57:45.they find it difficult to gain traction for their argument. So
:57:46. > :57:48.they've retreated into, if you don't like the Tories, vote for
:57:49. > :57:54.independence. It is ludicrous, desperate politics. Given what we've
:57:55. > :57:59.seen in the last bit years, people seeing what they've called a
:58:00. > :58:03.democratic deficit when there is a Tory government in Westminster, you
:58:04. > :58:10.cannot give Arent you that that will not happen again if the current
:58:11. > :58:14.system continues. This referendum is much more important than any general
:58:15. > :58:19.election with ever faced. Governments come and go, this is for
:58:20. > :58:24.ever. This is more important than the first election in January 1910,
:58:25. > :58:30.more important than the general election post war in 1945. It is the
:58:31. > :58:35.biggest decision ever taken in history in Scotland. To reduce it to
:58:36. > :58:41.who hates the Tories most when they could be gone in a year is pretty
:58:42. > :58:44.desperate and shallow. Let's say someone's objection is nuclear
:58:45. > :58:50.weapons, for instance. How should they vote? Well, which party in 2015
:58:51. > :58:55.has a different approach to nuclear weapons? The Labour Party would like
:58:56. > :59:03.to see a world we of nuclear weapons. It is how you would
:59:04. > :59:06.negotiate your way away from having nuclear weapons and towards a
:59:07. > :59:14.nuclear free world. They would love that to happen through negotiations
:59:15. > :59:18.with Obama and Putin. The contradiction is that ultimately,
:59:19. > :59:22.what you are saying is you would confirm that I prefer a Conservative
:59:23. > :59:27.Party in Westminster rather than a Labour Party running in Scotland.
:59:28. > :59:34.That is ludicrous. My argument is, you cannot reduce the referendum
:59:35. > :59:38.this year into a Punch and Judy show about the government next year. I
:59:39. > :59:45.joined the Labour government because I hate Tory policy. This is not a
:59:46. > :59:51.protest vote about the Tories, this is a permanent decision about the
:59:52. > :59:54.nature and future of our country. As to your question about defeatism, as
:59:55. > :00:02.you probably know, I'm a big football plan. Unless you are away
:00:03. > :00:11.to Barcelona, you never plan for a draw or a defeat. David Cameron is
:00:12. > :00:19.not lying or messy and I think we can avoid tanning for a draw or a
:00:20. > :00:23.defeat. There is a general unfairness about the way the economy
:00:24. > :00:29.is organised. I think Scotland wants to be rid of that type of politics.
:00:30. > :00:32.But the answer to getting rid of Tory policies isn't to change your
:00:33. > :00:37.passport, it is to change your government. The problem is that the
:00:38. > :00:41.UK, it is the UK Government. If you want to get rid of the UK bedroom
:00:42. > :00:46.tax, you don't have to get a separate army. If you want era
:00:47. > :00:53.energy prices, you don't have to take the huge risk involved in
:00:54. > :00:56.taking on a new policy and currency. When the SNP cannot even answer
:00:57. > :01:00.which currency would be in your pocket, it is clearly an enormous
:01:01. > :01:07.risk will stop should you share a platform with Conservatives to
:01:08. > :01:11.campaign for the union? I will not be sharing a platform with David
:01:12. > :01:17.Cameron during the referendum. Why is your party in bed with them in
:01:18. > :01:20.the Better Together campaign? On this issue, we shouldn't pretend
:01:21. > :01:27.that when we disagree about almost everything else we don't agree with
:01:28. > :01:38.them on one issue. It is not a surprise that the Tories are for the
:01:39. > :01:41.union. From different political traditions, we come to a similar
:01:42. > :01:47.answer on how you vote in this referendum, but only on this one
:01:48. > :01:50.issue. And if people vote no, should your party offer people more powers
:01:51. > :01:54.for the parliament in Edinburgh as a result of that vote? I think the
:01:55. > :01:59.Labour Party will come forward with those plans in advance of the
:02:00. > :02:03.referendum. Gordon Brown was suggesting there should be further
:02:04. > :02:11.demolition. Well, there will be further demolition. After that, we
:02:12. > :02:14.have to look at further powers. This debate cannot be about which group
:02:15. > :02:18.of politicians in which parliament in which city exercise powers. There
:02:19. > :02:24.are people whose lives are in crisis at the moment, people are using food
:02:25. > :02:32.banks and moneylenders. Those people who are coping will go head to the
:02:33. > :02:36.summer and think, how can I afford a summer holiday? If this conversation
:02:37. > :02:40.is just about which power is in parliament, it is going to be a
:02:41. > :02:50.turgid time for many people. This is not just about power, it is about
:02:51. > :02:53.political will. Thank you. I'm joined again by the First
:02:54. > :02:56.Minister who's been listening to that interview. Is it the case that
:02:57. > :03:01.you've been trying to characterise this referendum vote as a debate
:03:02. > :03:08.between your party and the Tories at Westminster? Well, I don't know what
:03:09. > :03:11.debate Jim Murphy has been watching, but if you see from the White
:03:12. > :03:15.Paper, the argument underpinning the case for an independent Scotland is
:03:16. > :03:18.the proposition that the best people to decide the future of this country
:03:19. > :03:23.are people living and working in this country. That is the argument
:03:24. > :03:27.that runs through the White Paper like a golden thread. Jim Murphy
:03:28. > :03:33.seems to be unaware of that. The second idea is that Tory governments
:03:34. > :03:36.are temporary interludes. For two thirds of my life, Scotland has been
:03:37. > :03:40.governed by parties we did not elect at Westminster. They are not
:03:41. > :03:45.temporary interludes, they have been the norm that two thirds of my
:03:46. > :03:52.life. Which is why I suspect so many Labour people - Charles Gray, for
:03:53. > :03:59.example - take the opposite view to Jim Murphy. They can see the
:04:00. > :04:03.advantages of having a socially and economically progressive Scotland,
:04:04. > :04:12.which is why they are voting yes. In 2010, 16% of the UK -- the Scottish
:04:13. > :04:20.population voted conservative will stop --. Why are you writing them
:04:21. > :04:26.off? I will repeat that the thread running through the White Paper is
:04:27. > :04:30.the best people to decide on the fate of this country are the people
:04:31. > :04:35.living and working in this country. I want everyone who has the right to
:04:36. > :04:42.vote to vote for independence. I don't exclude anyone, on that
:04:43. > :04:47.proposition. People living and working you will make the best
:04:48. > :04:52.decisions. That is the argument for independence across the globe. Some
:04:53. > :04:55.people in the Labour Party now extend that argument to other
:04:56. > :04:58.countries where they think self-determination is really
:04:59. > :05:03.important and valuable, but they don't extend it to be argument for
:05:04. > :05:06.independence in Scotland. Like other countries, I think Scotland will be
:05:07. > :05:15.better off running all of its own affairs. Jim Murphy got into
:05:16. > :05:19.substantial trouble when a Labour government supported the illegal war
:05:20. > :05:22.in Iraq will stop that is in the decision the people in Scotland will
:05:23. > :05:30.not have supported and no Scottish government would have participated
:05:31. > :05:41.in. Thank you for joining us. Let's now cross for the news. Good
:05:42. > :05:45.afternoon. Pro union academics claim charging tuition fees to students
:05:46. > :05:50.from the rest of the UK in an independent Scotland could break
:05:51. > :05:54.European law. Current regulations prevent undergraduates from
:05:55. > :05:57.countries outside the UK being charged fees from Scottish
:05:58. > :06:01.universities. Independence would mean students from the south of the
:06:02. > :06:08.border would also be eligible for free education. The first minister
:06:09. > :06:12.said the policy was compatible with EU requirements. A man and the boy
:06:13. > :06:17.have died after their car came off the road and plunged into the River
:06:18. > :06:21.Clyde near Bob will bridge in Lanarkshire yesterday morning.
:06:22. > :06:25.Divers located the car ran the people inside. A 38-year-old man and
:06:26. > :06:30.a nine-year-old boy died at the scene. People are being urged to
:06:31. > :06:37.complete bowel cancer screening tests which they will receive when
:06:38. > :06:41.they turned 50 this year. They have to take part in screening every two
:06:42. > :06:47.years and the plan is to improve survival rates by early detection.
:06:48. > :06:51.Now for the early weather forecast with Judith. There is some rain in
:06:52. > :06:56.the forecast later on but for most of us it will be dry with some
:06:57. > :07:04.brightness this afternoon. The best sunshine reserve for Easter
:07:05. > :07:11.Scotland. The rain will move into the West. As the rain marches in
:07:12. > :07:15.across the country it will turn to snow, the forward edge of the rain
:07:16. > :07:25.over the higher ground and central belt. That is all from now. Both
:07:26. > :07:28.sides in the independence campaign have started the New Year
:07:29. > :07:36.assertively. Now let's look at the headlines and what is coming up this
:07:37. > :07:40.week. My guests this week are the Professor of economics at Glasgow
:07:41. > :07:46.Caledonian University and political editor of the Scottish Daily Mail.
:07:47. > :07:53.The front page of the Sunday Herald has Cameron's plea to put in saying
:07:54. > :07:58.help to stop Salmond. This is a leak from the Kremlin that apparently
:07:59. > :08:01.came out on Hogmanay suggesting a Cameron aid has warned independence
:08:02. > :08:07.could send shock waves across the whole of Europe and enlisting the
:08:08. > :08:12.help of land you put in, what you make of that? It is part of a
:08:13. > :08:15.considered campaign to get other countries interested in the
:08:16. > :08:23.referendum. David Cameron had a meeting with Spain to discuss it.
:08:24. > :08:31.They are looking for their closest allies on this path towards the
:08:32. > :08:39.restructure. This story has appeared because of the G8 this year. Cameron
:08:40. > :08:45.has an interest in making the G8 countries aware of the potential
:08:46. > :08:49.destructive nature of a yes vote. The Spanish Prime Minister has
:08:50. > :08:52.something to say on this. Otherworldly doors do not want to
:08:53. > :08:59.become involved and you can understand why. Listening to Jim
:09:00. > :09:05.Murphy earlier saying it is not a protest vote, I think it is the
:09:06. > :09:09.opportunity for a protest vote against the major economic
:09:10. > :09:13.institutions that run our economy. Other countries are interested in
:09:14. > :09:22.the opportunity the referendum provides us with for change. This is
:09:23. > :09:27.bigger than just about Scotland. We will talk about another survey in
:09:28. > :09:33.just a second but we will not expect Putin to have a grand pronouncement
:09:34. > :09:39.in whether Scotland should or should not be independent? Now, of course
:09:40. > :09:48.not. We will hear from more European leaders, EU leaders, in the next few
:09:49. > :09:51.months. I know the SNP are trawling Europe for support. We will hear
:09:52. > :09:59.more concern from other nations in the months ahead. We also have this
:10:00. > :10:04.issue of tuition fees. That is in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper
:10:05. > :10:09.today. An independent Scotland would not be able to charge those from
:10:10. > :10:13.elsewhere in the UK as it currently does. The First Minister says this
:10:14. > :10:16.is not the case and he believes he has legal advice which backs this
:10:17. > :10:24.up, it is an interesting part of the debate? All last night I was talking
:10:25. > :10:30.with friends over dinner about this very issue. Our education system is
:10:31. > :10:35.inherently in equal and has been for many decades. We have widened access
:10:36. > :10:40.but not participation, they are two very different things. I believe in
:10:41. > :10:45.universalism and universal welfare provision but when it comes to our
:10:46. > :10:49.higher education system it is time to revisit the introduction of fees
:10:50. > :10:54.and means testing, I think it is fundamentally unfair. Fees for
:10:55. > :11:02.everyone is a positive will -- possible alternative. David is a
:11:03. > :11:11.potential for Scottish universities to lose out to the tune of ?150
:11:12. > :11:18.million per year. This is typical of the SNP one thing to be a member of
:11:19. > :11:24.DUP but not play with the rules. -- a member of the European Union. They
:11:25. > :11:31.will find it offensive the fact they will let Irish, French and Spanish
:11:32. > :11:37.students study for free but if you are English you will be charged.
:11:38. > :11:44.There are different rules that can be brought to bear, some experts
:11:45. > :11:49.say. Countries across Europe shared land borders, in Austria and Germany
:11:50. > :11:55.the same debate is going on there. I do not think the SNP can get away
:11:56. > :12:01.with this at all. There is survey in the Scotland on Sunday that says
:12:02. > :12:06.almost half of the people elsewhere in the UK, this poll suggests that
:12:07. > :12:10.the fear is that the rest of the UK would be weakened by Scottish
:12:11. > :12:15.independence. This has not been touched on yet. What a yes vote
:12:16. > :12:27.would mean for the rest of the UK in regards to the UN and other bodies.
:12:28. > :12:31.This issue came up last night, people in the North of England are
:12:32. > :12:35.supportive of Scottish independence because they think it revives a
:12:36. > :12:41.radical framework for the departure of the past and past ways of
:12:42. > :12:45.working. They would look for Scotland to provide that radical
:12:46. > :12:53.framework and perhaps the bravery in Scotland to be more confident and do
:12:54. > :13:00.things differently. I think we have the opportunity for a radical vision
:13:01. > :13:05.and the childcare example is a great one. Transformational childcare is
:13:06. > :13:11.key. What we have got at the moment is promises we are working towards
:13:12. > :13:16.in an incremental way. Things cannot change overnight, we have issues
:13:17. > :13:19.around capacity. The current government vision for childcare is
:13:20. > :13:23.transformational and as an example of that radical way of thinking that
:13:24. > :13:30.we can change things and make Scotland a better place for all of
:13:31. > :13:36.us. Just to look at the week ahead we have the speech coming up from
:13:37. > :13:39.the Scottish Secretary. We have had a big speech from Nicola Sturgeon in
:13:40. > :13:49.recent days and it does feel as though things are really stepping up
:13:50. > :13:53.a gear as regards this campaign. I think we will hear tomorrow about
:13:54. > :13:58.more powers, that will be the theme of the unionist campaign in the
:13:59. > :14:02.coming weeks. We heard from Gordon Brown yesterday talking about
:14:03. > :14:07.further devolution. This is what we will hear more of in the coming
:14:08. > :14:13.weeks. Is there a danger of people being turned off with too much
:14:14. > :14:17.detail? Absolutely, the adverse serial nature needs to move on and
:14:18. > :14:23.we need to talk about women in our communities, we need to talk deal.
:14:24. > :14:33.That is all from us this week, goodbye.