:00:35. > :00:40.Morning, folks! Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Nick Clegg says Chris Rennard must apologise. What for, say his
:00:45. > :00:47.friends. We'll ask senior Lib Dem Minister Danny Alexander whose side
:00:48. > :00:51.he's on. What about the voters - what do they
:00:52. > :01:00.make of the Lib Dems? We hear the views of a Sunday Politics Focus
:01:01. > :01:03.Group. And donkey, they do other people 's
:01:04. > :01:06.work. We'll get the verdict on Portsmouth
:01:07. > :01:10.MP Penny Mordaunt's plunge from the highboard from - who else - but the
:01:11. > :01:14.Minister for Portsmouth. On Sunday Politics Scotland: Does
:01:15. > :01:18.the UK network of diplomacy really allow Scots to do more good in the
:01:19. > :01:19.world and boost its foreign trade? We'll be asking an ex-ambassador and
:01:20. > :01:34.a mEP. Johnson has pledged to recruit more
:01:35. > :01:46.volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting
:01:47. > :01:49.throughout the programme. First this morning, Nick Clegg is
:01:50. > :01:51.considering a fresh investigation into the behaviour of the party's
:01:52. > :02:00.former chief executive, Lord Rennard. Last week, a lawyer
:02:01. > :02:04.appointed by the party decided that no action could be taken against
:02:05. > :02:06.him, but that women who had accused the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate
:02:07. > :02:17.behaviour "were broadly credible". More than 100 party activists are
:02:18. > :02:20.demanding an apology. Chris Rennard say he's nothing to apologise for
:02:21. > :02:24.and the party whip must be returned to him. Helen, this is not going
:02:25. > :02:30.away. It is turning into a crisis for the Lib Dems? They have only got
:02:31. > :02:36.seven female MPs. There is no female Cabinet Minister. There is a
:02:37. > :02:40.reasonable chance that after the next election there might in no
:02:41. > :02:45.female Liberal Democrat MPs at all. A scandal like this will not
:02:46. > :02:50.encourage women into the party. Have they made a complete mess of it? You
:02:51. > :02:56.feel for Nick Clegg, because he launched an utterly rigorous
:02:57. > :03:02.process. He called in a QC. The QC looked at it and decided that the
:03:03. > :03:06.evidence did not meet the burden of proof in a criminal trial. But
:03:07. > :03:10.clearly he felt that the evidence from these women was very credible
:03:11. > :03:18.and serious. He said it was broadly credible. Clearly it was serious.
:03:19. > :03:21.Rennard is being advised by Lord Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat
:03:22. > :03:26.peer, who is giving purely legal advice. He is saying it has not
:03:27. > :03:34.reached that edge-mac, so do not apologise. This is a political
:03:35. > :03:39.issue, so the agony continues. Nick Clegg was hoping to keep the party
:03:40. > :03:42.whip withdrawn. But they did not launch an enquiry, the Webster
:03:43. > :03:50.enquired it was not an enquiry, it was a legal opinion. You're right,
:03:51. > :03:53.it was an internal opinion. The Lib Dems distinguished themselves from
:03:54. > :03:58.the other two parties not with policy, but with ethics. They
:03:59. > :04:01.presented themselves as being cleaner, and in possession of more
:04:02. > :04:16.Robert Jay than Labour and the Conservatives. That will be harder
:04:17. > :04:19.to do now. -- more probity. There are a Lib Dem peers that are more
:04:20. > :04:24.relaxed about taking him back and letting him pick up the party whip.
:04:25. > :04:30.That is the problem. There is a generational issue. The older Lib
:04:31. > :04:35.Dems in the House of Lords, the kind of thing, he did not do anything
:04:36. > :04:40.that wrong. The younger activists and those outside the House of
:04:41. > :04:44.Lords, they think it is a pollen. Yes, there is definitely a sort of
:04:45. > :04:49.what you are complaining about sort of thing. That is symptomatic of a
:04:50. > :04:56.cultural difference. The report last year found that they tried to manage
:04:57. > :04:59.the allegations. They did not do what any company would do if there
:05:00. > :05:05.was an allegation of sexual harassment. If there had not in the
:05:06. > :05:09.by-election in Eastleigh, this story may not have got the attention it
:05:10. > :05:14.did. Channel four news are the one that really drove this. Without
:05:15. > :05:19.their reporting, this might not have come out. It is not going to go
:05:20. > :05:29.away, because the issue of whether he gets the party whip back will
:05:30. > :05:31.come week. -- will come up this week.
:05:32. > :05:34.So it's not been a great week for the Liberal Democrats and none of
:05:35. > :05:38.this will help public perceptions of a party already struggling in the
:05:39. > :05:40.polls. In a moment, I'll be talking to the second most senior Liberal
:05:41. > :05:43.Democrat in the land, Danny Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went
:05:44. > :05:47.to Glasgow to find out what voters there made of the party.
:05:48. > :05:49.Let's put the Lib Dems under the microscope in Glasgow. We have
:05:50. > :05:54.recruited some Glaswegians who have voted for them, and some who have
:05:55. > :05:57.not. Hello, John. Let's get started. I will be watching them through the
:05:58. > :06:00.one-way mirror, along with the former Liberal Democrat MP John
:06:01. > :06:03.Barrett. Let's get to the heart of the matter straightaway. If the Lib
:06:04. > :06:07.Dems were a biscuit, what would they be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the
:06:08. > :06:15.outside but soft in the middle. They give in. There is no strength of
:06:16. > :06:23.character there. They just give in to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit
:06:24. > :06:30.bland and boring. Melts and crumbles under any sort of heat and pressure.
:06:31. > :06:34.Morrison's own brand of biscuit, not top of the range like Marks
:06:35. > :06:44.Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose. A custard cream, sandwiched between
:06:45. > :06:47.David Cameron and the Tories. I think they were concerned that they
:06:48. > :06:50.had one exterior, but something else was really inside. They did not find
:06:51. > :06:59.it too definitive, too clear, too concise, too tasty, too appealing.
:07:00. > :07:05.Which means? It is a worry. If that is their gut reaction, literally,
:07:06. > :07:08.let's find out what is behind it. The context of them being stuck
:07:09. > :07:15.between a rock and a hard place, for them as a party, I feel slightly
:07:16. > :07:18.sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are
:07:19. > :07:23.victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition. I
:07:24. > :07:28.think the ones, particularly student fees, that was an important one to a
:07:29. > :07:33.lot of people. People felt cheated. I agree. Just going back on that, so
:07:34. > :07:42.publicly and openly, it makes you think, well, what do they stand for?
:07:43. > :07:46.It is trust. Harsh. But our group is feeling quite upbeat about the state
:07:47. > :07:53.of the economy. What have the Lib Dems contributed to that? I am not
:07:54. > :07:59.quite sure. It is George Osborne, a Conservative, who is the Chancellor,
:08:00. > :08:02.so it is mostly down to him. The Liberal Democrats are mostly on
:08:03. > :08:07.their coat tails, if you know what I mean. Have the Lib Dems done
:08:08. > :08:09.anything, anyone? I think the Liberal Democrats were responsible
:08:10. > :08:14.for increasing the tax allowance, ?10,000 for next year. I think they
:08:15. > :08:22.have played a major role in that. Yes. I am glad somebody noticed
:08:23. > :08:25.that. We will have helped everyone who is receiving a salary, and it is
:08:26. > :08:40.interesting that nobody has mentioned that. Now, let's talk
:08:41. > :08:44.about personalities. Everyone knows him, but what about say, this guy?
:08:45. > :08:47.Alexander. Danny, they got it straightaway. I actually quite like
:08:48. > :08:50.him. I think he talks very clearly and it is easy to understand what he
:08:51. > :08:58.says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy is popular as well. He is very
:08:59. > :09:04.charismatic and it is through him that I voted Liberal the last few
:09:05. > :09:08.times. But who is this? I recognise him but I cannot tell you his name.
:09:09. > :09:11.That is the party's leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the
:09:12. > :09:14.party's role in the upcoming referendum on independence draws a
:09:15. > :09:21.blank as well. It does not feel like they have featured, it is SNP and
:09:22. > :09:36.Labour and Conservative. They are last in a four horse race. We have
:09:37. > :09:39.been talking about the biggest issue in Scottish politics, independence
:09:40. > :09:42.and the referendum and the Lib Dems are nowhere. They are not mentioned
:09:43. > :09:46.and they seem to think it is all about Labour and the SNP. The Lib
:09:47. > :09:49.Dems are part of the Better Together campaign and we are being drowned
:09:50. > :09:54.out among that. Looking to the future, what messages do voters have
:09:55. > :10:00.for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do not go back on your policies or your
:10:01. > :10:08.word. Be strong and decisive. If you will pardon the expression, man up.
:10:09. > :10:15.DIY, do it yourself. Do not award bankers and other people for
:10:16. > :10:19.failure. Stand up. Be your own person, party. If that focus group
:10:20. > :10:24.represented the whole country, what would the result for the Lib Dems be
:10:25. > :10:29.at 2015 in the election? If they get the message across between now and
:10:30. > :10:33.then, the result could be OK. If they do not get the message across,
:10:34. > :10:40.the result could be disaster. Maybe they would do a lot better on their
:10:41. > :10:43.own. I do not think you are seeing the true Lib Dems because they are
:10:44. > :10:47.in the coalition. They maybe deserve another chance. Crucially for the
:10:48. > :10:51.Lib Dems, that means there is some hope, but there is also plenty of
:10:52. > :11:00.anger, some disappoint, and a bit of bafflement as well.
:11:01. > :11:04.And watching that with me, senior Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary
:11:05. > :11:08.to the Treasury Danny Alexander. Welcome to the programme. One of the
:11:09. > :11:12.things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any
:11:13. > :11:18.credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are
:11:19. > :11:22.getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first
:11:23. > :11:26.thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was
:11:27. > :11:32.not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right
:11:33. > :11:35.beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to
:11:36. > :11:40.deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour
:11:41. > :11:45.left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one
:11:46. > :11:52.focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very
:11:53. > :11:56.hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering
:11:57. > :12:00.without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the
:12:01. > :12:05.largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal
:12:06. > :12:08.Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to
:12:09. > :12:15.is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise
:12:16. > :12:21.that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your
:12:22. > :12:26.measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income
:12:27. > :12:31.tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The
:12:32. > :12:35.role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are
:12:36. > :12:39.the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a
:12:40. > :12:44.strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We
:12:45. > :12:53.saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour
:12:54. > :12:57.Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income
:12:58. > :13:02.tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do
:13:03. > :13:06.not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots
:13:07. > :13:10.of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,
:13:11. > :13:16.people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged
:13:17. > :13:19.children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard
:13:20. > :13:24.between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we
:13:25. > :13:28.secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery
:13:29. > :13:33.is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We
:13:34. > :13:37.need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people
:13:38. > :13:45.who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their
:13:46. > :13:49.savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem
:13:50. > :13:53.policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the
:13:54. > :13:58.need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big
:13:59. > :14:02.hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We
:14:03. > :14:09.have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay
:14:10. > :14:12.commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this
:14:13. > :14:18.announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other
:14:19. > :14:22.things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we
:14:23. > :14:27.have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get
:14:28. > :14:30.Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is
:14:31. > :14:35.something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay
:14:36. > :14:40.commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this
:14:41. > :14:44.stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?
:14:45. > :14:50.I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We
:14:51. > :14:54.have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic
:14:55. > :14:58.impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has
:14:59. > :15:06.credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not
:15:07. > :15:10.be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince
:15:11. > :15:19.Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,
:15:20. > :15:23.he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don't
:15:24. > :15:29.clear every word I say with him, I don't expect him to do the same to
:15:30. > :15:37.me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was
:15:38. > :15:42.blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay
:15:43. > :15:49.commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the
:15:50. > :15:55.financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also
:15:56. > :16:00.right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the
:16:01. > :16:05.commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have
:16:06. > :16:13.to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are
:16:14. > :16:15.the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed
:16:16. > :16:20.that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees, and
:16:21. > :16:25.that was a broken promise that didn't even apply to the people in
:16:26. > :16:30.Scotland, where there are no tuition fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear
:16:31. > :16:39.about the issues that that brought up. If you look at our manifesto,
:16:40. > :16:44.the University of London said we delivered about 70% of our policies
:16:45. > :16:51.in the manifesto. They haven't forgiven you for the big one. The
:16:52. > :16:59.big promise we made was to cut income tax the millions of people.
:17:00. > :17:05.That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of
:17:06. > :17:09.working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our
:17:10. > :17:15.economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make
:17:16. > :17:20.sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum
:17:21. > :17:26.wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit
:17:27. > :17:29.is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the
:17:30. > :17:35.confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 12
:17:36. > :17:42.months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look
:17:43. > :17:48.largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus
:17:49. > :17:53.group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I
:17:54. > :18:03.have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we
:18:04. > :18:08.are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,
:18:09. > :18:14.it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.
:18:15. > :18:20.Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than
:18:21. > :18:23.benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to
:18:24. > :18:28.have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right
:18:29. > :18:32.thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib
:18:33. > :18:37.Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the
:18:38. > :18:43.way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests
:18:44. > :18:49.of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,
:18:50. > :18:55.stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in
:18:56. > :19:03.meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 2015
:19:04. > :19:07.election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a
:19:08. > :19:11.very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the
:19:12. > :19:14.economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the
:19:15. > :19:20.problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the
:19:21. > :19:25.biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is
:19:26. > :19:30.either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative
:19:31. > :19:34.government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want
:19:35. > :19:38.us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a
:19:39. > :19:43.disaster to investment in this country. You announced this week
:19:44. > :19:47.that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it would be the British Treasury
:19:48. > :19:53.that would guarantee all British government debt. There wouldn't be a
:19:54. > :19:57.negotiation, but the backstop would be that even if they didn't take
:19:58. > :20:01.anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the
:20:02. > :20:06.markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few
:20:07. > :20:12.questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still
:20:13. > :20:16.borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people
:20:17. > :20:30.were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious
:20:31. > :20:34.concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond
:20:35. > :20:40.market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.
:20:41. > :20:45.That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather
:20:46. > :20:51.than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a
:20:52. > :20:55.bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to
:20:56. > :20:59.allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in
:21:00. > :21:01.the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because
:21:02. > :21:07.Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it
:21:08. > :21:11.was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus
:21:12. > :21:17.group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this
:21:18. > :21:22.aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the
:21:23. > :21:28.bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at
:21:29. > :21:35.RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached
:21:36. > :21:43.by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach
:21:44. > :21:51.from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in
:21:52. > :21:55.government, massive reductions... I'm not asking you about that, I'm
:21:56. > :22:04.asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to
:22:05. > :22:08.sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has
:22:09. > :22:14.38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what
:22:15. > :22:20.possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right
:22:21. > :22:29.to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is
:22:30. > :22:33.mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they
:22:34. > :22:37.might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be
:22:38. > :22:42.sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you
:22:43. > :22:48.said, but also the fact that it is a bank that has benefited from the
:22:49. > :22:53.taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS has to focus more on domestic
:22:54. > :22:59.retail. Let me turn to Chris Rennard, ten women have accused him
:23:00. > :23:05.of sexual harassment. He denies every case. Who do you believe? We
:23:06. > :23:15.have been through a process on this as a party. A report has been issued
:23:16. > :23:19.on this. I agree with Alistair Webster on this, he has made clear
:23:20. > :23:23.that while he cannot prove what happened to a criminal standard,
:23:24. > :23:28.that there is clear there has been considerable distress and harm
:23:29. > :23:34.caused. I agree with him about that and that's why it is necessary for
:23:35. > :23:42.Chris Rennard to apologise as he has been asked to do. If he refuses to
:23:43. > :23:47.apologise, should he be denied the Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't
:23:48. > :23:51.think he should be readmitted to the Liberal Democrat group in the House
:23:52. > :23:58.of Lords until such time as the disciplinary process, including the
:23:59. > :24:01.apology, has been done properly. We are very democratic party, it is a
:24:02. > :24:07.matter for our group in the House of Lords in due course to make that
:24:08. > :24:12.judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of complaints from party members about
:24:13. > :24:15.the fact no apology has been made. The appropriate committee would need
:24:16. > :24:20.to look at that and decide what action needs to be taken because
:24:21. > :24:27.these are very serious matters. We as a party have learned a lot, taken
:24:28. > :24:33.a long, hard look at ourselves, to change the way we work. The apology
:24:34. > :24:38.does need to be made. We are told that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of
:24:39. > :24:41.the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, we are told he has shaken
:24:42. > :24:50.hands with Chris Rennard and welcomed him back. That decision has
:24:51. > :24:56.not been taken yet. I think Lord Newby would share my view on this.
:24:57. > :25:03.Have you shaken his hand and welcomed him back? No, I haven't.
:25:04. > :25:10.Does Nick Clegg have the power to deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am
:25:11. > :25:14.making it clear that a lack of apology is totally unacceptable, and
:25:15. > :25:21.therefore we have to take steps if that is not forthcoming. His view
:25:22. > :25:28.and my view is that Lord Rennard should not be readmitted to the
:25:29. > :25:33.House of Lords if that is not forthcoming. In our party, our group
:25:34. > :25:40.in the House of Lords has two in the end take a view for itself. And they
:25:41. > :25:47.can override Nick Clegg's view? I hope that when they look at this...
:25:48. > :25:58.Do they have the power to override Nick Clegg? They have the power to
:25:59. > :26:02.decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple
:26:03. > :26:09.human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is
:26:10. > :26:26.totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --
:26:27. > :26:32.divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total
:26:33. > :26:37.nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we
:26:38. > :26:42.have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment
:26:43. > :26:46.on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid
:26:47. > :26:50.down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which
:26:51. > :26:54.asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty
:26:55. > :27:02.of confidentiality and responsibility under the data
:27:03. > :27:14.protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in
:27:15. > :27:19.a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why
:27:20. > :27:25.should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven
:27:26. > :27:30.allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not
:27:31. > :27:33.been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to
:27:34. > :27:38.continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the
:27:39. > :27:44.recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.
:27:45. > :27:50.Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris
:27:51. > :27:57.Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits. He
:27:58. > :28:01.says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party
:28:02. > :28:07.because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those
:28:08. > :28:14.rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.
:28:15. > :28:17.The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of
:28:18. > :28:24.which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found
:28:25. > :28:28.distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't
:28:29. > :28:40.think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it
:28:41. > :28:46.both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a
:28:47. > :28:51.proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the
:28:52. > :28:56.time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most
:28:57. > :29:01.important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made
:29:02. > :29:12.that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on
:29:13. > :29:19.the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We
:29:20. > :29:24.just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank
:29:25. > :29:41.you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.
:29:42. > :29:45.Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to
:29:46. > :29:48.run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the
:29:49. > :29:51.revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies
:29:52. > :29:53.were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital
:29:54. > :29:56.communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how
:29:57. > :29:58.worried should we be about their clandestine activity?
:29:59. > :30:00.In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that
:30:01. > :30:05.America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called
:30:06. > :30:10.Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from
:30:11. > :30:16.around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This
:30:17. > :30:20.week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,
:30:21. > :30:27.including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions
:30:28. > :30:37.of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela
:30:38. > :30:39.Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused
:30:40. > :30:44.to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign
:30:45. > :30:52.Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks
:30:53. > :30:55.and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of
:30:56. > :30:58.the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in
:30:59. > :31:08.on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to
:31:09. > :31:13.go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel
:31:14. > :31:16.Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major
:31:17. > :31:22.changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was
:31:23. > :31:26.up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of
:31:27. > :31:31.thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that
:31:32. > :31:36.is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,
:31:37. > :31:40.has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is
:31:41. > :31:48.up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a
:31:49. > :31:53.call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people
:31:54. > :31:57.can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information
:31:58. > :32:01.will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real
:32:02. > :32:05.commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the
:32:06. > :32:09.system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is
:32:10. > :32:14.oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not
:32:15. > :32:17.mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee
:32:18. > :32:23.said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by
:32:24. > :32:31.Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.
:32:32. > :32:41.The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to
:32:42. > :32:47.approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president
:32:48. > :32:52.does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an
:32:53. > :32:56.establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the
:32:57. > :33:02.committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In
:33:03. > :33:06.this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her
:33:07. > :33:11.European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the
:33:12. > :33:15.interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.
:33:16. > :33:20.But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are
:33:21. > :33:25.having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency
:33:26. > :33:28.should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more
:33:29. > :33:31.safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you
:33:32. > :34:08.cannot see the What bothers me is it was not the
:34:09. > :34:12.intelligence committee in the states that did the work to bring that
:34:13. > :34:17.number down, it was a Judiciary Committee. The value of having two
:34:18. > :34:21.different bodies taking a lead means you do not get one organisation with
:34:22. > :34:28.one particular view. They fell down on torture, 77, weapons of mass
:34:29. > :34:33.destruction, how can people have confidence in a body washed up if
:34:34. > :34:42.you go around Europe and the world, we are an oddity in not requiring
:34:43. > :34:49.judges to sign off warrants. -- a body? I do not accept that. There
:34:50. > :34:54.were two microphone report on the attack and if you look at that,
:34:55. > :35:00.people would say widely due not know about them? -- two reports. The
:35:01. > :35:03.agencies have to have capability but that has to be subject to proper
:35:04. > :35:11.oversight and scrutiny, I entirely agree. Did you know about Dishfire?
:35:12. > :35:16.I knew about the capabilities they have. We visit on a regular basis
:35:17. > :35:20.and the director tells us about the capabilities they have got. Some of
:35:21. > :35:25.the names of these programmes we would not have known because they
:35:26. > :35:32.are American. Did you know that GCHQ had the capability to do Dishfire to
:35:33. > :35:38.get Dishfire material from the NSA? The committee knew we had the
:35:39. > :35:41.capability to collect meta data and these days, people do not write
:35:42. > :35:47.letters and use landline telephones, they use Internet, e-mail, so it is
:35:48. > :35:52.important to the agencies can keep up with that technological change
:35:53. > :35:58.within a proper legal framework. What would you like to see happen?
:35:59. > :36:02.That framework should include, if a company is cooperating, it should be
:36:03. > :36:09.illegal for GCHQ to hack into them. One of the big drivers in the US is
:36:10. > :36:13.this has put a ?35 billion hole in the US economy because people do not
:36:14. > :36:18.trust systems to be secure and we need to know where there is a front
:36:19. > :36:22.for, there is not a different drawer into the system by hacking or even
:36:23. > :36:27.foreign intelligence. We need judicial oversight with judges is
:36:28. > :36:30.not politicians signing off, and a proper accountable body to
:36:31. > :36:37.Parliament to oversee the agencies and not the Prime Minister. The ISC
:36:38. > :36:39.as a result of the changes is now accountable to Parliament and not
:36:40. > :36:44.simply the Prime Minister, pushed changes are taking place and I am up
:36:45. > :36:49.for the debate about whether we need more change. At its heart, I want
:36:50. > :36:53.our agencies, like most British people, to have the power to protect
:36:54. > :37:01.the people of this country. Thank you to both of you. You are
:37:02. > :37:04.watching Sunday politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday
:37:05. > :37:07.Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: William Hague claims UK
:37:08. > :37:09.diplomacy allows Scots to punch above their weight on the
:37:10. > :37:12.international stage. We are on a journey to Cowdenbeath
:37:13. > :37:14.to see how the candidates are preparing for Thursday's
:37:15. > :37:17.by-election. And the Catalonian President Artur
:37:18. > :37:18.Mas says he will press ahead with a referendum on independence this
:37:19. > :37:27.year. In the latest of a series of
:37:28. > :37:29.Scotland analysis papers presented by the Westminster government, the
:37:30. > :37:33.Foreign Secretary, William Hague, was in Glasgow on Friday to outline
:37:34. > :37:36.the case for Scotland remaining in the UK to further its foreign policy
:37:37. > :37:40.objectives. Along with re-igniting the war of words over EU membership
:37:41. > :37:43.and the terms on which an independent Scotland might expect to
:37:44. > :37:45.gain entry, Mr Hague also pointed to the diplomatic network and
:37:46. > :37:48.intelligence community which promotes and supports Scottish
:37:49. > :37:52.national interests as part of the UK. Pro-independence supporters say
:37:53. > :38:02.Scotland will play a full part in world affairs.
:38:03. > :38:07.Mr Hague said being in the UK gives Scotland international influence and
:38:08. > :38:12.Scots benefit from an extensive network of diplomacy which includes
:38:13. > :38:19.267 embassies, high commissions and consorts, membership of the EU and
:38:20. > :38:24.NATO, a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, MI5 and
:38:25. > :38:28.MI6. United Kingdom will exercise its
:38:29. > :38:32.functions in the world and I am confident about that, but Scotland
:38:33. > :38:38.would be in a different situation and would be without easy access to
:38:39. > :38:41.most things. The huge consular services that look after people all
:38:42. > :38:45.over the world, support for businesses through UK trade and
:38:46. > :38:50.investment. This would have to be reinvented somehow.
:38:51. > :38:53.The Scottish of mud 's White Paper says Scotland would be a member of
:38:54. > :39:00.international organisations and would have embassies, membership of
:39:01. > :39:08.the EU, NATO and the UN, and an internal style agency and an
:39:09. > :39:12.external MI6 agency an option. The Scottish government envisions an
:39:13. > :39:16.independent nation able to make a contribution on the global stage. It
:39:17. > :39:21.is not impressed by reports the UK might be using its diplomatic
:39:22. > :39:25.network to campaign against any -- a Yes vote. There have been reports UK
:39:26. > :39:31.officials have been speaking to the Spanish, Russian government, to
:39:32. > :39:34.lobby their support. I have not heard any straight denials of that
:39:35. > :39:39.from the UK government, if it is true, I think it is deplorable
:39:40. > :39:42.activity and I would hope William Hague as Foreign Secretary would
:39:43. > :39:45.stop it. I am joined now by Sir William
:39:46. > :39:48.Patey, a former British Ambassador to Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and
:39:49. > :39:52.Afghanistan. And speaking today for the Better Together campaign, and
:39:53. > :40:00.the SNP MEP Alyn Smith. Good morning. Does Scotland benefit from
:40:01. > :40:05.the current diplomatic setup? I always make a point, I will knock on
:40:06. > :40:10.the door of the High Commissioner of the UK Ambassador. The network does
:40:11. > :40:15.what it does in representing UK interests. The UK interest is not
:40:16. > :40:20.exactly the same as the Scottish interest on all things at all times
:40:21. > :40:26.and what we are talking about is setting up a network. Scottish
:40:27. > :40:28.development International has already got Scotland house in
:40:29. > :40:35.Brussels and various things to build on. That network will be 100%
:40:36. > :40:38.focused on articulating Scottish interest, having had that interest
:40:39. > :40:44.articulated and formulated in Scotland by the people of Scotland.
:40:45. > :40:49.But it would be a quarter of the size so influence is diminished.
:40:50. > :40:52.There is an ordinary before that but that is ignoring the point that
:40:53. > :40:56.under the Lisbon Treaty, much of this stuff is done by the EU on
:40:57. > :41:03.behalf of the member states. I was up the UN in November it in New York
:41:04. > :41:09.and increasingly, the member state speaking with one voice -- New York.
:41:10. > :41:16.That is then broadcast on a wider stage. The network will be smaller
:41:17. > :41:18.which leads to cost savings, we will have a different network focused on
:41:19. > :41:28.promoting Scottish interests and our aggressive values around the world.
:41:29. > :41:34.As a diplomat, how much time did you spend promoting Scottish interests?
:41:35. > :41:40.I rot, the EU did not secure opt out from Kashmir and sorted out
:41:41. > :41:45.discrimination against the Scottish whiskey industry is that promotes
:41:46. > :41:51.Scottish firms, so it is a myth that the EU represents the interests of
:41:52. > :41:54.Scotland. Do you accept the point that sometimes the UK interest is
:41:55. > :42:01.not always the same Scottish interest? I had 37 years in the
:42:02. > :42:07.foreign service and there was never a dichotomy between the two. Would
:42:08. > :42:11.that to promote Scotland as part of the UK -- we were there to promote.
:42:12. > :42:16.Would looked at a Scottish interests and we did that, we looked after
:42:17. > :42:21.Scottish citizens in trouble and promoted Scottish firms -- we looked
:42:22. > :42:27.after. I do not understand the conflict of interest. The Better
:42:28. > :42:32.Together campaign is based on the assumption that Scottish and UK
:42:33. > :42:36.interests coincide, that is not true. Look at what we have done in
:42:37. > :42:44.terms of council tax, student tuition, prescription fees. You seem
:42:45. > :42:51.to suggest Scottish interests were not demoted? The question is, could
:42:52. > :42:56.we do better? -- promoted. With a taste of independence, we have made
:42:57. > :43:01.different decisions, Scottish solutions. Look at our
:43:02. > :43:05.representatives in Westminster, 90% of MPs opposed to the bedroom tax,
:43:06. > :43:12.the vast majority of Scottish MPs were opposed to privatisation of the
:43:13. > :43:17.Royal Mail. It is operating to a fundamentally different set of
:43:18. > :43:20.priorities that we would have chosen in Scotland. Does it matter if the
:43:21. > :43:27.country the size of Scotland does not have a seat at every top table?
:43:28. > :43:32.It means our influence is less. Scotland can clearly be independent
:43:33. > :43:37.with its own diplomatic and intelligence services but it would
:43:38. > :43:42.be a small country vying for attention in a crowded marketplace.
:43:43. > :43:45.Over 180 countries in the UN. From my own experience and talking to
:43:46. > :43:50.ambassadors from smaller countries, I know how difficult they find it to
:43:51. > :43:54.get access and influence. Scotland can leveraged the broader influence
:43:55. > :43:59.of the UK for allsorts of historical reasons, a seat on the Security
:44:00. > :44:03.Council, a seat at the G20, these are places where the global system
:44:04. > :44:08.is determined. Scotland has a much more direct influence on those and
:44:09. > :44:14.it would if it had to convert with other allies and small groups of
:44:15. > :44:24.countries. Scotland would pay more and get less. Is that a fair point?
:44:25. > :44:29.That really is quite dated. We motoring in terms of developing. The
:44:30. > :44:35.idea that Scotland will not be the UK, of course not, we will not have
:44:36. > :44:39.nuclear weapons. The idea that we have a permanent seat on the UN
:44:40. > :44:44.Security Council, we do not need or want one. We will formulate our own
:44:45. > :44:50.decisions. I do not accept the point the UK is working on our behalf as
:44:51. > :44:53.well as we could ourselves. There have been complaints and we heard
:44:54. > :44:56.from Nicola Sturgeon she feels that sometimes the diplomacy is being
:44:57. > :45:02.used to work against the issue of Scottish independence. Our colleague
:45:03. > :45:06.Andrew Marr asked Vladimir Putin if he had any advice for David Cameron
:45:07. > :45:10.on the question of Scottish independence.
:45:11. > :45:18.Here is what he had to say. It is not a matter for Russia. It is
:45:19. > :45:31.a domestic issue for the UK. People have a right to soft in a nation --
:45:32. > :45:35.to self rule. I believe one should not forget that being part of a
:45:36. > :45:39.single strong state has some advantages and one should not
:45:40. > :45:44.overlook this. But it is a choice for every pupil according to their
:45:45. > :45:52.own circumstances -- people. Perhaps the Scots could join the new
:45:53. > :45:59.customs union? -- during your new. I would not rule it out.
:46:00. > :46:02.He says this is not a matter for Russia but that being part of a
:46:03. > :46:07.single strong state has more advantages and nobody should
:46:08. > :46:11.overlook that, your response? Both sides of the arguments can quote
:46:12. > :46:16.lines selectively. He started with, this is not a matter for Russia. He
:46:17. > :46:20.does not have a boat in it and not many people are taking lessons and
:46:21. > :46:25.democracy from Vladimir Putin! So people should not be quoting world
:46:26. > :46:30.leaders? People are professional, they recognise a domestic debate and
:46:31. > :46:36.a domestic decision. The people best placed to make about -- to make a
:46:37. > :46:40.decision about Scotland are the people of Scotland and the rest of
:46:41. > :46:44.the world will respect that. And to the Edinburgh agreement, we have a
:46:45. > :46:49.cordial and grown-up agreement with the UK government that both sides
:46:50. > :46:55.will respect. Do you expect world leaders to become embroiled in this
:46:56. > :47:05.debate or will they stay out like? ? I do not think will get involved. --
:47:06. > :47:09.like Vladimir Putin. It is for the UK and the Scottish people to decide
:47:10. > :47:14.on this. But it is important that Scots understand the international
:47:15. > :47:23.implications and the smooth the path that is outlined by the SNP that it
:47:24. > :47:25.will all be rosy is not true. The reality is that Scottish
:47:26. > :47:29.independence will cost more and it will be a difficult road, not
:47:30. > :47:35.impossible. But Scotland will pay more for less.
:47:36. > :47:40.We will return to this! Thank you both -- thank you, both.
:47:41. > :47:43.It is the final weekend of campaigning in the Cowdenbeath
:47:44. > :47:46.by-election. It has been a quick battle, really just getting off the
:47:47. > :47:50.ground after the Christmas holidays. Called after the death of the
:47:51. > :47:53.sitting MSP Helen Eadie, it seems the SNP only have a slim chance of a
:47:54. > :47:56.win. The constituency managed to survive the nationalist avalanche of
:47:57. > :48:00.2011, while others around it fell. Andrew Kerr has been to meet the
:48:01. > :48:04.candidates. The butcher, baker, betting shop, a
:48:05. > :48:11.typical Scottish town, welcome to Cowdenbeath. It is called, it it is
:48:12. > :48:14.a by-election that has hardly set the world alight, but people are
:48:15. > :48:24.talking about the issues that matter the most. -- cold. The state of the
:48:25. > :48:28.High Street and local jobs. Small businesses are a major thing for me.
:48:29. > :48:33.When you think of the High Street here, what can be done to help it?
:48:34. > :48:36.The High Street is going to die a death, so hopefully some
:48:37. > :48:42.regeneration will be goat. Regenerate the High Street for a
:48:43. > :48:50.start. There is nothing left. It is deserted. Mainly that and the job
:48:51. > :48:55.situation. It is about Scottish independence, that is a big vote
:48:56. > :49:01.this year. That is very important and the structure but, we need more
:49:02. > :49:03.information. So the constitution is also an issue, the Labour candidate
:49:04. > :49:12.picking up on that on the doorsteps here. Labour need -- needs to set
:49:13. > :49:15.out its vision for Scotland. Alex Rowley is the council leader in
:49:16. > :49:21.Fife, Labour survived the SNP onslaught here in 2011 and it is
:49:22. > :49:24.likely the party will pull through again. There is a traditional Labour
:49:25. > :49:29.message on jobs, health and the referendum. Scotland has been put on
:49:30. > :49:35.hold for a year, we see cuts happening, we see health and social
:49:36. > :49:38.care whether a government in Edinburgh will not take
:49:39. > :49:42.responsibility for its role so we are not taking anything for granted,
:49:43. > :49:48.we will campaign for every vote. I message is loud and clear, in this
:49:49. > :49:50.constituency, if elected, I will be a strong voice representing this
:49:51. > :49:56.constituency in the Scottish Parliament.
:49:57. > :50:05.What are the main issues for you? People are saying it is the pressure
:50:06. > :50:13.on budgets. Current data is a hard nut to cross -- break for the
:50:14. > :50:21.Nationalists. But there is optimistic talk from the candidates.
:50:22. > :50:25.If we can -- speak to enough voters and give them the message that only
:50:26. > :50:32.we can protect them then we can convince them and we could win. Not
:50:33. > :50:35.so for the Lib Dems with 4% here last time. Look through the window
:50:36. > :50:40.at a Lib Dem soul at this factory and what do you find? It seems
:50:41. > :50:46.reporters are the anyone's asking about controversial welfare reforms.
:50:47. > :50:51.People are talking about it. Their worries about independence and jobs
:50:52. > :50:55.and taxes, but when it comes to these discussions, all I can say is
:50:56. > :51:00.I understand there is a need for welfare reform and it has to be done
:51:01. > :51:06.sensibly and fairly. A strong defence of UK Government policy from
:51:07. > :51:13.the Conservatives. In Aber Dower, a promise to protect green spaces and
:51:14. > :51:18.a promise to listen. I was brought up in Fife and I work with people is
:51:19. > :51:24.at -- people and ask them what they want. I don't tell the man that
:51:25. > :51:30.makes me unusual as a politician. UKIP claims they are also listening.
:51:31. > :51:38.They are campaigning on the beach here.
:51:39. > :51:43.The authorities pass the buck. If you vote for UKIP, we will make sure
:51:44. > :51:52.things get done and this beach is cleaned up. From the bay, back to
:51:53. > :51:57.the high street. After Thursday, voters will no longer be bombarded
:51:58. > :52:02.with messages as the campaign teams hit the road and the visiting
:52:03. > :52:03.politicians get back in their boxes. Here is a full list of candidates
:52:04. > :52:14.could: polling will take place on Thursday
:52:15. > :52:20.and there is more information on our website.
:52:21. > :52:26.I'm joined by Professor John Curtice from Strathclyde University --
:52:27. > :52:32.University. I think you have seen their the candidates try hard to
:52:33. > :52:37.find local issues on which to campaign. As in Dunfermline, the
:52:38. > :52:42.state of the town centre is being talked about. Equally, there are
:52:43. > :52:48.claims about whether the independence referendum is or is not
:52:49. > :52:52.an issue. Equally, there are claims and counterclaims about whether
:52:53. > :52:58.people are voting for the policies of the UK or Scottish government. A
:52:59. > :53:02.typical by-election mix here. Dunfermline, the SNP were trying to
:53:03. > :53:09.defend a marginal seat that we did not expect them to hang onto.
:53:10. > :53:13.Cowdenbeath is one of the 15 constituencies the Labour Party did
:53:14. > :53:20.manage to hang onto in 2011. What makes different then? It makes it
:53:21. > :53:27.different in the sense that it is not a by-election in which there is
:53:28. > :53:31.a great deal of interest because even by-elections in opposition
:53:32. > :53:36.seats, we find the government not doing terribly well. We usually find
:53:37. > :53:41.the opposition hang on and make some progress. We will be looking to see
:53:42. > :53:45.whether the SNP and the Labour performance is similar to or
:53:46. > :53:50.different from the performance in Aberdeen in the summer and in
:53:51. > :53:57.Dunfermline in the autumn. In truth, those are the two by-elections, they
:53:58. > :54:01.provide us with a framework. Almost undoubtedly the reason why the
:54:02. > :54:10.Labour Party hung onto the seat in 2011 is because of Helen Eadie's
:54:11. > :54:14.personal popularity. Overall, what do by-elections like this tell us?
:54:15. > :54:20.We have had tremendous upsets and sometimes they have gone to plan. Do
:54:21. > :54:25.they actually feed that much into the national picture? Occasionally
:54:26. > :54:31.changes the national mood substantially. They had a dramatic
:54:32. > :54:37.impact last year on the position in UK wide politics. You have to look
:54:38. > :54:41.at them and say, as compared with other by-elections is it exceptional
:54:42. > :54:46.and telling us something is changing? If the Labour Party ends
:54:47. > :54:50.up with around 50%, which is what you would expect given what happened
:54:51. > :54:54.in Aberdeen and Dunfermline and given what they did in this
:54:55. > :55:01.constituency in the 2012 local elections, we will say not much has
:55:02. > :55:04.changed. If the SNP end up at around 3031%, that is consistent with their
:55:05. > :55:15.performances in previous by-elections and in the 2012 local
:55:16. > :55:21.elections. 30 or 31%. I think we need to see what happened previously
:55:22. > :55:27.in local elections and by-elections and that gives us a guide as to
:55:28. > :55:30.whether this is more of the same and we shouldn't be terribly surprised
:55:31. > :55:38.or whether, in fact, something is changing. We're constantly told the
:55:39. > :55:43.electorate here is sophisticated. Will that mean we can read anything,
:55:44. > :55:52.therefore, into the forthcoming referendum as a result of this? I
:55:53. > :55:59.would be wary of that. If you look at the SNP's average vote share, it
:56:00. > :56:11.is around 40%. Average vote for independence is around 38 or 39, not
:56:12. > :56:16.that far apart. But, at the end of the day, remember that governments
:56:17. > :56:20.tend not to do terribly well, even if they are popular. It is still
:56:21. > :56:25.relatively popular as the government, albeit not as popular as
:56:26. > :56:29.three years ago. Snowdrops in by-elections will undoubtedly
:56:30. > :56:34.exaggerate the reek -- weakness of the SNP's position. The drop in this
:56:35. > :56:38.by-election will be greater than any drop for independence. Thank you for
:56:39. > :56:41.that. You're watching Sunday Politics
:56:42. > :56:44.Scotland and the time is coming up for midday. Let's cross now for the
:56:45. > :56:48.news from Reporting Scotland with Andrew Kerr.
:56:49. > :56:53.Good afternoon. Police have arrested and charged the mother of the
:56:54. > :57:02.three-year-old boy, Mikaeel Kular, in connection with his death. This
:57:03. > :57:07.report from where the boy 's body was found.
:57:08. > :57:12.The house here remained cordoned off today. The body of Michael Adebolajo
:57:13. > :57:26.was removed yesterday afternoon. To communities have been affected by
:57:27. > :57:32.the little boy 's death and hundreds turned out for a church service in
:57:33. > :57:37.the area of Edinburgh where he had lived with his family for the last
:57:38. > :57:41.18 months. His Merc -- mother has been charged in connection with his
:57:42. > :57:52.murder and she is due to appear in court tomorrow. A man has died after
:57:53. > :57:55.being pulled out of the sea at Stonehaven in Aberdeenshire. Two
:57:56. > :57:58.members of the public and a police officer rescued the man yesterday
:57:59. > :58:01.afternoon. He was then airlifted to hospital in Aberdeen. The
:58:02. > :58:04.43-year-old died there in the early hours of this morning.
:58:05. > :58:08.Health boards have been told to cut down on their use of the private
:58:09. > :58:16.sector. The new guidance has come from the Health Secretary, Alex
:58:17. > :58:19.Neil. The most recent figures indicate NHS spending on independent
:58:20. > :58:22.health care was less than 1% of the budget. Labour had said using the
:58:23. > :58:33.private sector was a "sticking plaster" approach to health care.
:58:34. > :58:40.Dry and brighter conditions across the south-west corner. Staying windy
:58:41. > :58:43.across the North East with lighter wind elsewhere.
:58:44. > :58:55.That's all for now. Catalonia's president has praised
:58:56. > :59:04.Britain's pragmatic approach to Scottish independence. Artur Mas
:59:05. > :59:07.told the BBC that he would press ahead with the controversial vote on
:59:08. > :59:11.independence in Catalonia in November even though the Spanish
:59:12. > :59:16.government says it is illegal and they will block it. The two
:59:17. > :59:20.campaigns for independence are similar but there are key
:59:21. > :59:26.differences. Once, the Catalan language was
:59:27. > :59:29.banned in schools here. Now, Catalan children grow up with the national
:59:30. > :59:37.identity distinct from the rest of Spain. Support for independence is
:59:38. > :59:41.growing. This demonstration in September 2012 attracted more than 1
:59:42. > :59:47.million people. Scotland has seen nothing like this. Spain says it
:59:48. > :59:50.will block Novembers referendum as illegal. I asked Catalonia's
:59:51. > :59:56.president whether it would encourage Catalans to invite -- vote for
:59:57. > :00:03.independence if Scotland voted yes first. I don't think so. I think
:00:04. > :00:08.there are some similarities between Scotland and Catalonia but there are
:00:09. > :00:14.also differences. I think that both countries have enough personality,
:00:15. > :00:21.even from a political point of view, to follow their own ways. I
:00:22. > :00:25.wouldn't say that everything is similar between the Scottish process
:00:26. > :00:31.and the Catalan process, although there are some similarities. Do you
:00:32. > :00:37.see Scotland as an ally or does it complicates things? I don't think
:00:38. > :00:45.the Scottish case complicates things in Catalunya. Let me say that we
:00:46. > :00:50.envy a bit what is happening in the United Kingdom because what we would
:00:51. > :00:57.like is an agreement with the Spanish central institutions. Our
:00:58. > :01:02.aim is to reach an agreement and organise the consultation in
:01:03. > :01:05.accordance with the opinion of the Spanish government, but the
:01:06. > :01:09.difference is that, in Spain, the central government says you don't
:01:10. > :01:16.have the right to vote. So you would rather be dealing with David
:01:17. > :01:22.Cameron? Of course. Not exactly with Mr Cameron, but with the British
:01:23. > :01:31.mentality. That is to say, if you have a nation - Scotland or
:01:32. > :01:37.Catalunya, you have a broad majority of the population asking for a
:01:38. > :01:44.referendum, asking for real democracy, what do you have to do?
:01:45. > :01:48.To sit at the table and talk about it and reach agreements and to let
:01:49. > :01:54.people vote. That is the British way. If Scotland and Catalunya were
:01:55. > :01:58.to vote yes, would they carry on as members of the EU in their own right
:01:59. > :02:04.on slightly different terms, or would they have to reapply as new
:02:05. > :02:10.members? This is what we don't know. Frankly,
:02:11. > :02:17.we don't know what will happen, but nobody knows. The Spanish government
:02:18. > :02:25.doesn't know what will happen and the European Commission doesn't
:02:26. > :02:31.know. What do you think will happen? I think common sense is the most
:02:32. > :02:35.important point. Common sense shows us that if a European country
:02:36. > :02:39.belonging to the European Union wants to stay in the European Union,
:02:40. > :02:45.the European Union has two make it easy. There is another big
:02:46. > :02:51.difference between the two. In Scotland, support for independence
:02:52. > :02:57.has been solid at around 30% arguably for decades. In Catalonia
:02:58. > :03:00.it has shot up to 50% in the last few years and many anti-independence
:03:01. > :03:07.campaigners believe it is a short-term response to a short-term
:03:08. > :03:12.economic crisis, but one which could have profound and irreversible
:03:13. > :03:17.long-term consequences. Opponents of the referendum one tough action
:03:18. > :03:27.funds gained -- Spain to rain Catalonia in. For instance, we could
:03:28. > :03:30.suspend the autonomy. We hope it will not be a scenario that will
:03:31. > :03:44.arise, but our democratic constitution gives us some tools to
:03:45. > :03:49.stop illegal misuse. But the popular mood seems unmistakable. In a
:03:50. > :03:53.country where even eight-year-old child for independence, Spain 's
:03:54. > :03:55.refusal to grant a referendum risks pushing more Catalans into the
:03:56. > :04:07.independence camp. In a moment, we will discuss the big
:04:08. > :04:09.events coming up in Holyrood. First, a week at -- a look back at the
:04:10. > :04:18.week. The Treasury pledged to honour all
:04:19. > :04:23.UK debt in the event of independence, it is hoped.
:04:24. > :04:27.Uncertainty about the sharing of debt is pushing up the cost of
:04:28. > :04:32.borrowing. Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said plans to abolish
:04:33. > :04:37.corroboration would he delayed to review the impact of reform, some
:04:38. > :04:40.believe it could lead to miscarriages of justice. The
:04:41. > :04:45.Scottish government is creating a veterans commission at to champion
:04:46. > :04:50.the interests of ex-servicemen and women. Scotland's economy grew by
:04:51. > :04:55.0.7% last year, the Finance Secretary John Swinney welcomed the
:04:56. > :05:00.figures. They show over the last six quarters sustained and accelerated
:05:01. > :05:07.growth in the Scottish economy and the annual growth of the Scottish
:05:08. > :05:11.economy is at 2.1%. Research by Edinburgh University found police in
:05:12. > :05:15.Scotland carry out four times more stop and searches than in England
:05:16. > :05:19.and Wales. Well, that was the Week in Sixty
:05:20. > :05:21.Seconds. Let's have a look at the headlines and what is coming up this
:05:22. > :05:29.week. And joining me to have a look at
:05:30. > :05:32.what the next few days hold is Times political correspondent Lindsay
:05:33. > :05:39.McIntosh, and the political editor from the Sunday Herald, Tom Gordon.
:05:40. > :05:42.Good afternoon. Let's start with the story on the front pages of most of
:05:43. > :05:46.the papers, the death of the-year-old Mikaeel Kular
:05:47. > :05:53.dominating the papers. This seems to have touched the whole country. It
:05:54. > :05:58.is hot waking, instant identification for parents like
:05:59. > :06:02.myself, a child goes missing with tragic consequences --
:06:03. > :06:06.heartbreaking. No surprise it is dominating the front pages, a
:06:07. > :06:11.terrible story. Police have been praising the efforts of people in
:06:12. > :06:16.Edinburgh. It is easy to be cynical and think people are on caring, but
:06:17. > :06:21.that is not the case. Their striking images of hundreds of members of the
:06:22. > :06:26.local community coming forward -- there are striking. Conducting
:06:27. > :06:29.searches with the police. Mothers came out and said, if this had been
:06:30. > :06:38.my child missing, I would hope everybody would come and help. And
:06:39. > :06:43.it has had this heartbreaking end. More on this story in the coming
:06:44. > :06:50.days. Let's talk about diplomacy. You have got a story in the Sunday
:06:51. > :06:56.Herald about how the SNP sees foreign policy developing. This is
:06:57. > :07:01.intriguing, it could be a great idea or a hostage to fortune. They want
:07:02. > :07:08.the policy of, do no harm, is strong ethical dimensional to it. It would
:07:09. > :07:13.mean stopping exporting arms to reprehensible regimes. So please
:07:14. > :07:18.stop with the best of intentions, these things -- so these things
:07:19. > :07:23.start with the best of intentions but it will be interesting to see if
:07:24. > :07:28.they carry it off. We have heard about ethical policies before, Robin
:07:29. > :07:34.Cook 's idea before Labour came to power and it did not last long. It
:07:35. > :07:40.is a nice phrase and it is in the White Paper. It is not something
:07:41. > :07:53.everybody will oppose but how do you see that question --? Also
:07:54. > :07:57.recognition that Scotland's role in the world will be different to the
:07:58. > :08:04.role the UK has played when it comes to intervention. Very much, we have
:08:05. > :08:07.had from Angus Robertson a lot of discussion about Scotland becoming a
:08:08. > :08:11.centre for peace and reconciliation and if you can that with the UK
:08:12. > :08:16.government, we have had illegal wars in Iraq. I want a different
:08:17. > :08:24.direction, much more peaceful and co-operative. I want to break away
:08:25. > :08:31.from being the in the pocket of the US. There will be talk about Scots
:08:32. > :08:39.having a different attitude to immigration. Is the SNP likely to
:08:40. > :08:46.say that? This is not quite a myth but I do not think the facts pan out
:08:47. > :08:50.as the SNP presents them. If you look at opinion polls in this area,
:08:51. > :08:57.Scottish attitudes to immigration and the EU are pretty similar to the
:08:58. > :09:02.rest of the UK. To an extent, it is an exaggeration from the SNP that we
:09:03. > :09:11.are somehow there are different to the rest of the UK. When it comes to
:09:12. > :09:15.anti-EU sentiment, that seems to be encapsulated by UKIP, not the same
:09:16. > :09:18.North of the border? UKIP are a shambles North of the border and the
:09:19. > :09:24.leadership structure has virtually collapsed. They have yet to achieve
:09:25. > :09:31.by percent of the vote in a by-election. -- 5%. Could change
:09:32. > :09:37.with the European elections in May, but no sense of that. How helpful to
:09:38. > :09:42.the Better Together campaign into Jack is like the one on Friday from
:09:43. > :09:49.William Hague? Do those campaigning against a Yes vote CDs Westminster
:09:50. > :09:58.figures as being helpful? -- CBEs. William Hague and Danny Alexander
:09:59. > :10:04.did very well on Friday. Where the interventions have been unhelpful is
:10:05. > :10:08.where we have had unnamed Tories from down South passing comment on
:10:09. > :10:13.the Better Together campaign from a distance. We had remarks that I was
:10:14. > :10:23.to dialling is comatose to and that is not helpful -- Alistair Darling.
:10:24. > :10:27.But William Hague produced a helpful contribution. And Danny Alexander.
:10:28. > :10:32.There had been interventions from George Osborne is and some feel that
:10:33. > :10:40.helps their campaign. -- George Osborne. That always the Bay are a
:10:41. > :10:47.recruiting Sergeant for the Yes campaign if they come North -- they
:10:48. > :10:50.always say that they are. It annoys them because the message can
:10:51. > :10:58.resonate with some Scottish voters and they would like them to stay out
:10:59. > :11:00.completely. We have got the publication of the latest instalment
:11:01. > :11:06.of the Scottish attitudes survey and this will look at independence. Is
:11:07. > :11:14.either side changing minds in this debate? I think it is fractional at
:11:15. > :11:18.the moment. There is possibly a sense that the Yes vote is getting a
:11:19. > :11:25.bit of traction in the sense that the polls will narrow, but I do not
:11:26. > :11:30.think we will see a huge swing. Since the White Paper has come out,
:11:31. > :11:38.the book are starting to weigh the argument is a lot of than they have
:11:39. > :11:41.in the past -- people. I cannot see social attitude surveys showing
:11:42. > :11:48.anything significant we -- significantly different. Do you feel
:11:49. > :11:56.the public are engaged? But as much as they will be. Even if the
:11:57. > :12:02.campaign went on longer, five years, people would only switch on in the
:12:03. > :12:09.last couple of months. They will only get engaged in the closing
:12:10. > :12:13.period. What will be interesting is if there is any kind of difference.
:12:14. > :12:19.We are seeing increasingly undecided voters and perhaps people moving
:12:20. > :12:27.into the may be camp, but it is quite slow. I do not think they will
:12:28. > :12:32.poll of enough momentum. -- pick up enough momentum. We just hear
:12:33. > :12:39.arguments reiterated and we cannot look for anything new from either
:12:40. > :12:45.campaign pushed up -- campaign? We have got another four or five
:12:46. > :12:49.campaigners system of the arguments they made initially will be brought
:12:50. > :12:55.out in finer detail. From the other side, they will have to put flesh on
:12:56. > :12:57.the bones of a lot of the propositions they make in the White
:12:58. > :13:04.Paper, which is supposed to be their manifesto. I do not think we will
:13:05. > :13:10.see anything left field. But a long eight months to go! It has been a
:13:11. > :13:15.long year and a half! One of the big political stories will be the
:13:16. > :13:20.Cowdenbeath by-election, it does not set the world on fire! Maybe it is
:13:21. > :13:27.the time of year the weather, I cannot see it it upset. The SNP
:13:28. > :13:32.rolling their eyes as a safe -- and seeing it as a safety seat. These
:13:33. > :13:36.things can cost up to ?100,000 a time and this is the third in quick
:13:37. > :13:41.succession and I think they would rather save their energy for the big
:13:42. > :13:46.one. So pity the poor people in Cowdenbeath! Indeed, it is not going
:13:47. > :13:53.to be the most engaging by-election. We heard from John
:13:54. > :13:59.Curtis earlier, it looks like it will be Labour. The feeling in
:14:00. > :14:04.Holyrood is, let's get this over and move on. We get the result and
:14:05. > :14:09.Friday morning. Thank you for coming here. -- on Friday morning.
:14:10. > :14:12.That is all from the us this week. I will be back at the same time next
:14:13. > :14:17.week. Until then, goodbye.