:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.He's a man on a mission. But is it mission impossible? Iain Duncan
:00:45. > :00:50.Smith has started the radical reform of our welfare state. No tall order.
:00:51. > :00:54.And not everything's going to plan. We'll be talking to the man himself.
:00:55. > :00:58.Nick Clegg is hosting his party's Spring Conference in York. He is
:00:59. > :01:05.getting pretty cosy with the party faithful. Not so cosy, though, with
:01:06. > :01:09.his Coalition partners. In fact, things are getting a wee bit nasty.
:01:10. > :01:11.We'll be talking to his right-hand man, Danny Alexander.
:01:12. > :01:14.And are all politicians self-obsessed? Don't all shout at
:01:15. > :01:17.once. We'll be examining the art of the political selfie.
:01:18. > :01:21.And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland, we'll look at how UKIP is
:01:22. > :01:24.performing in Scotland after some supporters demand a rerun of the
:01:25. > :01:35.ballot to select their European parliament candidate.
:01:36. > :01:41.And with me, as always, three of the best and the brightest political
:01:42. > :01:44.panel in the business. At least that's what it says in the Sunday
:01:45. > :01:50.Politics template. Back from the Oscars empty handed, Helen Lewis,
:01:51. > :01:53.Janan Ganesh and Iain Martin. Yes, three camera-shy hacks, who've never
:01:54. > :01:56.taken a selfie in their life. We'll be coming to that later. They just
:01:57. > :01:58.like to tweet. And they'll be doing so throughout the programme.
:01:59. > :02:04.Welcome. Now, first this morning, the Liberal
:02:05. > :02:07.Democrat Spring Conference in York. I know you speak of nothing else!
:02:08. > :02:11.The Yorkshire spring sunshine hasn't made the Lib Dems think any more
:02:12. > :02:15.kindly of their Coalition partners. Indeed, Tory bashing is now the Lib
:02:16. > :02:20.Dem default position. Here's Danny Alexander speaking yesterday.
:02:21. > :02:22.Repairing the economy on its own isn't enough. We have to do it
:02:23. > :02:31.fairly. isn't enough. We have to do it
:02:32. > :02:36.the agenda a decision to cut taxes, income taxes, for working people.
:02:37. > :02:42.Now, conference, note that word - forced. We have had to fight for
:02:43. > :02:45.this at the last election and at every budget and at every Autumn
:02:46. > :02:53.Statement since 2010 and what a fight it has been.
:02:54. > :02:59.Danny Alexander joins us now. Are we going to have to suffer 14 months of
:03:00. > :03:03.you and your colleagues desperately trying to distance yourself from the
:03:04. > :03:09.Tories? It's not about distancing ourselves. It's about saying, " this
:03:10. > :03:15.is what we as a party have achieved in government together with the
:03:16. > :03:19.Conservatives". And saying, " this is what our agenda is for the
:03:20. > :03:25.future" . It's not just about the fact that this April we reach that
:03:26. > :03:29.?10,000 income tax allowance that we promised in our manifesto in 2010
:03:30. > :03:37.but also that we want to go further in the next parliament and live that
:03:38. > :03:40.to ?12,500, getting that over a 2-term Liberal Democrat government.
:03:41. > :03:44.It's very important for all parties to set out their own agenda, ideas
:03:45. > :03:47.and vision for the future, whilst also celebrating what we're
:03:48. > :03:52.achieving jointly in this Coalition, particularly around the fact that we
:03:53. > :03:57.are, having taken very difficult decisions, seeing the economy
:03:58. > :04:01.improving and seeing jobs creation in this country, which is something
:04:02. > :04:04.I'm personally very proud and, as the Coalition, we have achieved and
:04:05. > :04:09.wouldn't have if it hadn't been for the decisions of the Liberal
:04:10. > :04:13.Democrats. Lets try and move on. You've made that point about 50
:04:14. > :04:16.times on this show alone. You now seem more interested in Rowling with
:04:17. > :04:24.each other than running the country, don't you? -- rowing with each
:04:25. > :04:30.other. I think we are making sure we take the decisions, particularly
:04:31. > :04:34.about getting our economy on the right track. Of course, there are
:04:35. > :04:38.lots of things where the Conservatives have one view of the
:04:39. > :04:42.future and we have a different view and it's quite proper that we should
:04:43. > :04:44.set those things out. There are big differences between the Liberal
:04:45. > :04:47.Democrats and the Conservatives, just as there were big differences
:04:48. > :04:52.between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party. I believe we're
:04:53. > :04:55.the only party that can marry that commitment delivering a strong
:04:56. > :04:58.economy, which Labour can't do, and that commitment to delivering a
:04:59. > :05:02.fairer society, which the Tories can't be trusted to do by
:05:03. > :05:05.themselves. You are going out of your way to pick fights with the
:05:06. > :05:10.Tories at the moment. It's a bit like American wrestling. It is all
:05:11. > :05:13.show. Nobody is really getting hurt. I've been compared to many things
:05:14. > :05:21.but an American wrestler is a first! I don't see it like that. It
:05:22. > :05:25.is right for us as a party to set out what we've achieved and show
:05:26. > :05:31.people that what we promised on 2010 on income tax cuts is what this
:05:32. > :05:34.government is delivering. But nobody seems convinced by these
:05:35. > :05:39.manufactured rows with the Tories. You've just come last in a council
:05:40. > :05:44.by-election with 56 votes. You were even bitten by an Elvis
:05:45. > :05:54.impersonator! Yes, that is true. -- beaten. I could equally well quote
:05:55. > :06:00.council by-elections that we've won recently, beating Conservatives, the
:06:01. > :06:03.Labour Party and UKIP. Our record on that is pretty good. You can always
:06:04. > :06:08.pick one that shows one or other party in a poor light. Our party is
:06:09. > :06:12.having real traction with the electric and the places where we
:06:13. > :06:15.have a real chance of winning. If you're not an American wrestler,
:06:16. > :06:19.maybe you should be an Elvis impersonator! You told your spring
:06:20. > :06:25.forum... You don't want to hear me sing! You want to raise the personal
:06:26. > :06:30.allowance to ?12,500 in the next Parliament. Will you refuse to enter
:06:31. > :06:34.into Coalition with any party that won't agree to that? What I said
:06:35. > :06:40.yesterday is that this will be something which is a very high
:06:41. > :06:44.priority for the Liberal Democrats. It's something that we will very
:06:45. > :06:50.much seek to achieve if we are involved... We know that - will it
:06:51. > :06:55.be a red line? If you are a number in 2010, on the front page of our
:06:56. > :07:00.manifesto, we highlighted four policies... I know all that. Will it
:07:01. > :07:05.be a red line? It will be something that is a very high priority for the
:07:06. > :07:12.Liberal Democrats to deliver. For the fifth time, will it be a red
:07:13. > :07:14.line? It will be, as I said, a very high priority for the Liberal
:07:15. > :07:19.Democrats in the next Parliament. That's my language. We did that in
:07:20. > :07:22.the next election. The number-1 promise on our manifesto with a
:07:23. > :07:26.?10,000 threshold and we've delivered that in this Parliament.
:07:27. > :07:33.People can see that when we say something is a top priority, we
:07:34. > :07:36.deliver it. Is it your claim... Are you claiming that the Tories would
:07:37. > :07:41.not have raised the starting point of income tax if it hadn't been for
:07:42. > :07:44.the Liberal Democrats? If you remember back in the leaders'
:07:45. > :07:48.debates in the 2010 election campaign, Nick Clegg was rightly
:07:49. > :07:54.championing this idea and David Cameron said it couldn't be
:07:55. > :08:00.afforded. Each step of the way in the Coalition negotiations within
:08:01. > :08:04.government, we've had to fight for that. The covert overtures have
:08:05. > :08:08.other priorities. -- the Conservatives. I don't want to go
:08:09. > :08:13.back into history. I'd like to get to the present. Have the
:08:14. > :08:18.Conservatives resisted every effort to raise the starting point of
:08:19. > :08:22.income tax? As I said, we promised this in 2010, they said it couldn't
:08:23. > :08:28.be done. We've made sure it was delivered in the Coalition. Have
:08:29. > :08:32.they resisted it? We've argued for big steps along the way and forced
:08:33. > :08:40.it on to the agenda. They've wanted to deliver other things are so we've
:08:41. > :08:46.had to fight for our priority... Did the Conservatives resist every
:08:47. > :08:49.attempt? It has been resisted, overall the things I'm talking
:08:50. > :08:52.about, by Conservatives, because they have wanted to deliver other
:08:53. > :08:58.things and, of course, in a Coalition you negotiate. Both
:08:59. > :09:01.parties have their priorities. Our priority has been a very consistent
:09:02. > :09:06.one. Last year, they were arguing about tax breaks for married
:09:07. > :09:12.couples. They were arguing in 2010 for tax cuts for millionaires. Our
:09:13. > :09:16.priority in all these discussions has been a consistent one, which is
:09:17. > :09:24.to say we want cutbacks for working people. -- we want to cut tax for
:09:25. > :09:27.working people. That has been delivered by both parties in the
:09:28. > :09:32.Coalition government full top So what do you think when the Tories
:09:33. > :09:36.take credit for it? I understand why they want to try to do that. Most
:09:37. > :09:43.people understand what we have just said. Not if the polls are to be
:09:44. > :09:51.believed... You're under 10%. This is one of the things, when I talk to
:09:52. > :09:55.people, but I find they know that the Lib Dems have delivered in
:09:56. > :09:58.government. People know we promised it in 2010 and we're the ones who
:09:59. > :10:03.forced this idea onto the agenda in our election manifesto. You've said
:10:04. > :10:10.that five times in this interview alone. The reality is, this is now a
:10:11. > :10:14.squabbling, loveless marriage. We're getting bored with all your tests,
:10:15. > :10:22.the voters. Why don't you just divorced? -- all your arguments. I
:10:23. > :10:25.don't accept that. On a lot of policy areas, the Coalition
:10:26. > :10:29.government has worked very well together. We're delivering an awful
:10:30. > :10:32.lot of things that matter to this country. Most importantly, the mess
:10:33. > :10:36.that Labour made of the economy we are sorting out. We are getting our
:10:37. > :10:40.finances on the right track, making our economy more competitive,
:10:41. > :10:44.creating jobs up and down this country, supporting businesses to
:10:45. > :10:48.invest in growth. That is what this Coalition was set up to do, what it
:10:49. > :10:50.is delivering, and both myself and George Osborne are proud to have
:10:51. > :10:55.worked together to deliver that record. Danny Alexander, thanks for
:10:56. > :11:01.that. Enjoyed York. Helen, is anybody listening? I do worry that
:11:02. > :11:06.another 40 months of this might drive voter apathy up to record
:11:07. > :11:12.levels. There is a simple answer to why they don't divorced - it's the
:11:13. > :11:16.agreement that Parliament will last until 2015. MPs are bouncing around
:11:17. > :11:20.Westminster with very little to do. They are looking for things to put
:11:21. > :11:23.in the Queen's Speech and we are going to have rocks basically the 40
:11:24. > :11:29.months and very little substantial difference in policies. Do you
:11:30. > :11:33.believe Danny Alexander when he says there would have been no rise in the
:11:34. > :11:37.starting rate of income tax if not for the Lib Dems? He's gilding the
:11:38. > :11:46.lily. If you look back at papers are written in 2001 suggesting precisely
:11:47. > :11:51.this policy, written by a Tory peer, you see there are plenty of Tories
:11:52. > :11:56.which suggest there would have been this kind of move. I can see why
:11:57. > :12:00.Danny Alexander needs to do this and they need to show they've achieved
:12:01. > :12:04.something in government because they are below 10% in the polls and
:12:05. > :12:10.finding it incredibly difficult to get any traction at all. The other
:12:11. > :12:15.leg of this Lib Dem repositioning is now to be explicitly the party of
:12:16. > :12:20.Europe and to be the vanguard of the fight to be all things pro-Europe.
:12:21. > :12:25.Mr Clegg is going to debate Nigel Farage in the run-up to the European
:12:26. > :12:50.elections. If, despite that, the Lib Dems come last of the major parties,
:12:51. > :12:55.doesn't it show how out of touch different. They are targeting a
:12:56. > :13:00.section of the electorate who are a bit more amenable to their views
:13:01. > :13:05.than the rest. They wouldn't get 20% of the vote. They are targeting that
:13:06. > :13:07.one section. They have to do disproportionately well amongst
:13:08. > :13:12.those and it will payoff and they will end up with something like 15%.
:13:13. > :13:22.How many seats will the Lib Dems losing the next election? Ten. 20.
:13:23. > :13:27.15. Triangulation! We'll keep that on tape and see what actually
:13:28. > :13:30.happens! The Work and Pensions Secretary Iain
:13:31. > :13:34.Duncan Smith is a man on a mission. He's undertaken the biggest overhaul
:13:35. > :13:37.in our welfare state since it was invented way back in the
:13:38. > :13:42.black-and-white days of the late 1940s. A committed Roman Catholic,
:13:43. > :13:46.he's said he has a moral vision to reverse the previous welfare system,
:13:47. > :13:51.which he believes didn't create enough incentive for people to work.
:13:52. > :13:54.But are his reforms working? Are they fair? As he bitten off more
:13:55. > :13:59.than he can chew? In a moment, we'll speak to the man himself but first,
:14:00. > :14:03.here's Adam. Hackney in north London and we're on
:14:04. > :14:06.the road with the man who might just be the most ambitious welfare
:14:07. > :14:10.secretary there's ever been. It's a journey that started in the wind and
:14:11. > :14:14.rain on a Glasgow council estate 12 years ago when he was Tory leader.
:14:15. > :14:20.He came face-to-face with what it meant to be poor. A selection of
:14:21. > :14:24.teddy bears. It's where he discovered his recipe for reform,
:14:25. > :14:29.according to one of the advisers who was with him. There are things that
:14:30. > :14:35.if you do get a job, keep your family together, stay off drugs and
:14:36. > :14:41.alcohol, make sure you have a proper skill - that's what keeps you of
:14:42. > :14:44.poverty. He, very ambitiously, wants to redefine the nature of what it
:14:45. > :14:49.means to be poor and how you get away from poverty. Back in north
:14:50. > :14:53.London, he's come to congratulate the troops on some good news. In
:14:54. > :14:57.this borough, the number of people on job-seeker's allowance has gone
:14:58. > :15:05.down by 29% in the last year, up from around 1700 to around 1200. But
:15:06. > :15:09.the picture in his wider changes to the welfare state is a bit more
:15:10. > :15:15.mixed. A cap on the total amount of benefits a family can get, of
:15:16. > :15:18.?26,000 a year, is hugely popular but there have been howls of protest
:15:19. > :15:24.over cuts to housing benefit, labelled the bedroom tax by some.
:15:25. > :15:26.Protests, too, about assessments for people on disability benefits,
:15:27. > :15:30.inherited from the previous government. Iain Duncan Smith has
:15:31. > :15:36.been accused of being heartless and the company doing them, Atos, has
:15:37. > :15:39.pulled out. And then the big one - and universal credit, a plan to roll
:15:40. > :15:45.six benefits into one monthly payment, in a way designed to ensure
:15:46. > :15:49.that work always pays. Some of the IT has been written off and the
:15:50. > :15:52.timetable seems to be slipping. Outside the bubble of the
:15:53. > :15:57.stage-managed ministerial trip, a local Labour MP reckons he's bitten
:15:58. > :16:02.off more than he can chew. The great desire is to say, " let's have one
:16:03. > :16:07.simple one size fits all approach" . And there isn't one size of person
:16:08. > :16:11.or family out there. People need to change and they can challenge on the
:16:12. > :16:14.turn of a penny almost. One minute they are doing the right thing,
:16:15. > :16:18.working hard. Next minute, they need a level of support and if this
:16:19. > :16:22.simple system doesn't deliver that for them, they're in a difficult
:16:23. > :16:29.position. And that's the flying visit to the front line finished. He
:16:30. > :16:32.does not like to hang about and just as well do - his overhaul of the
:16:33. > :16:41.entire benefits system still has quite a long way to go. And Iain
:16:42. > :16:45.Duncan Smith joins me now. Before I come onto the interview on welfare
:16:46. > :16:52.reform, is Danny Alexander right when he claims the Lib Dems had to
:16:53. > :16:57.fight to get the Tories to raise the income tax threshold? That is not my
:16:58. > :17:03.recollection of what happened. These debates took place in the
:17:04. > :17:07.Coalition. The Conservatives are in favour of reducing the overall
:17:08. > :17:12.burden of taxation, so the question was how best do we do it? The
:17:13. > :17:18.conversation took place, they were keen on raising the threshold, there
:17:19. > :17:22.were also other ways of doing it but it is clear from the Conservatives
:17:23. > :17:27.that we always wanted to improve the quality of life of those at the
:17:28. > :17:32.bottom so raising the threshold fit within the overall plan. If it was a
:17:33. > :17:41.row, it was the kind of row you have over a cup of tea round the
:17:42. > :17:48.breakfast table. We have got a lot to cover. There are two criticisms
:17:49. > :17:55.mainly of what you are doing - will they work, and will they be fair?
:17:56. > :17:59.Leslie Roberts, one of our viewers, wants to know why so much has
:18:00. > :18:02.already been written off due to failures of the universal credit
:18:03. > :18:11.system even though it has been barely introduced. Relatively it has
:18:12. > :18:18.been a ?2 billion investment project, in the private sector
:18:19. > :18:24.programmes are written off regularly at 30, 40%. The IT is working, we
:18:25. > :18:28.are improving as we go along, the key thing is to keep your eye on the
:18:29. > :18:38.parts that don't work and make sure they don't create a problem for the
:18:39. > :18:43.programme. 140 million has been wasted! The 40 million that was
:18:44. > :18:48.written off was just do with security IT, and I took that
:18:49. > :18:52.decision over a year and a half ago so the programme continued to roll
:18:53. > :18:56.out. Those figures include the standard right down, the aggregation
:18:57. > :19:05.of cost over a period of time. The of cost over a period of time. The
:19:06. > :19:10.computers were written down years ago but they continue to work now.
:19:11. > :19:14.Universal credit is rolling out, we are doing the Pathfinders and
:19:15. > :19:23.learning a lot but I will not ever do this again like the last
:19:24. > :19:29.government, big band launches, you should do it phrase by phrase. Even
:19:30. > :19:35.your colleague Francis Maude says the implementation of universal
:19:36. > :19:39.credit has been pretty lamentable. He was referring back to the time
:19:40. > :19:45.when I stopped that element of the process and I agreed with that. I
:19:46. > :19:50.intervened to make the changes. The key point is that it is rolling out
:19:51. > :19:56.and I invite anyone to look at where it is being rolled out to. You were
:19:57. > :20:02.predicting that a million people would be an universal credit, this
:20:03. > :20:06.is the new welfare credit which rolls up six existing welfare
:20:07. > :20:12.benefits and you were predicting a million people would be on it by
:20:13. > :20:22.April, well it is March and only 3200 are on it. I changed the way we
:20:23. > :20:25.rolled it out and there was a reason for that. Under the advice of
:20:26. > :20:31.someone we brought from outside, he said that you are better rolling it
:20:32. > :20:35.out slower and gaining momentum later on. On the timetables for
:20:36. > :20:40.rolling out we are pretty clear that it will roll out within the
:20:41. > :20:44.timescale is originally set. We will roll it out into the Northwest so
:20:45. > :20:51.that we replicate the north and the Northwest, recognise how it works
:20:52. > :20:57.properly. You will not hit 1 million by April. I have no intention of
:20:58. > :21:02.claiming that, and it is quite deliberate because that is the wrong
:21:03. > :21:07.thing to do. We want to roll it out carefully so we make sure everything
:21:08. > :21:10.about it works. There are lots of variables in this process but if you
:21:11. > :21:17.do it that way, you will not end up with the kind of debacle where in
:21:18. > :21:24.the past something like ?28 billion worth of IT programmes were written
:21:25. > :21:31.off. ?38 billion of net benefits, which is exactly what the N a O Z,
:21:32. > :21:36.so it is worth getting it right. William Grant wants to know, when
:21:37. > :21:42.will the universal credit cover the whole country? By 2016, everybody
:21:43. > :21:49.who is claiming one of those six benefits will be claiming universal
:21:50. > :21:55.credit. Some and sickness benefits will take longer to come on because
:21:56. > :22:00.it is more difficult. Many of them have no work expectations on them,
:22:01. > :22:05.but for those on working tax credits, on things like job-seeker's
:22:06. > :22:10.allowance, they will be making claims on universal credit. Many of
:22:11. > :22:16.them are already doing that now, there are 200,000 people around the
:22:17. > :22:27.country already on universal credit. You cannot give me a date as to when
:22:28. > :22:32.everybody will be on it? 2016 is when everybody claiming this benefit
:22:33. > :22:36.will be on, then you have to bring others and take them slower.
:22:37. > :22:42.Universal credit is a big and important reform, not an IT reform.
:22:43. > :22:48.The important point is that it will be a massive cultural reform. Right
:22:49. > :22:52.now somebody has to go to work and there is a small job out there. They
:22:53. > :22:56.won't take that because the way their benefits are withdrawn, it
:22:57. > :23:01.will mean it is not worth doing it. Under the way we have got it in the
:23:02. > :23:05.Pathfinders, the change is dramatic. A job-seeker can take a
:23:06. > :23:10.small part time job while they are looking for work and it means
:23:11. > :23:15.flexibility for business so it is a big change. Lets see if that is true
:23:16. > :23:25.because universal credit is meant to make work pay, that is your mantra.
:23:26. > :23:40.Let me show you a quote Minister in the last
:23:41. > :23:52.-- in the last Tory conference. It has only come down to 76%. Actually
:23:53. > :23:57.form own parents, before they get to the tax bracket it is well below
:23:58. > :24:01.that. That is a decision the Government takes about the
:24:02. > :24:06.withdrawal rate so you can lower that rate or raise it. And do your
:24:07. > :24:13.reforms, some of the poorest people, if they burn an extra
:24:14. > :24:22.pound, will pay a marginal rate of 76%. -- if they earn an extra pound.
:24:23. > :24:28.The 98% he is talking about is a specific area to do with lone
:24:29. > :24:34.parents but there are specific compound areas in the process that
:24:35. > :24:40.mean people are better off staying at home then going to work. They
:24:41. > :24:44.will be able to identify how much they are better off without needing
:24:45. > :24:51.to have a maths degree to figure it out. They are all taken away at
:24:52. > :24:55.different rates at the moment, it is complex and chaotic. Under universal
:24:56. > :25:03.credit that won't happen, and they will always be better off than they
:25:04. > :25:11.are now. Would you work that bit harder if the Government was going
:25:12. > :25:17.to take away that portion of what you learned? At the moment you are
:25:18. > :25:21.going to tax poor people at the same rate the French government taxes
:25:22. > :25:26.billionaires. Millions will be better off under this system of
:25:27. > :25:28.universal credit, I promise you, and that level of withdrawal then
:25:29. > :25:36.becomes something governments have to publicly discussed as to whether
:25:37. > :25:43.they lower or raise it. But George Osborne wouldn't give you the extra
:25:44. > :25:47.money to allow for the taper, is that right? The moment somebody
:25:48. > :25:52.crosses into work under the present system, there are huge cliff edges,
:25:53. > :25:58.in other words the immediate withdrawal makes it worse for them
:25:59. > :26:03.to go into work than otherwise. If he had given you more money, you
:26:04. > :26:11.could have tapered it more gently? Of course, but the Chancellor can
:26:12. > :26:17.always ultimately make that decision. These decisions are made
:26:18. > :26:22.by chancellors like tax rates, but it would be much easier under this
:26:23. > :26:26.system for the public to see what the Government chooses as its
:26:27. > :26:33.priorities. At the moment nobody has any idea but in the future it will
:26:34. > :26:38.be. Under the Pathfinders, we are finding people are going to work
:26:39. > :26:45.faster, doing more job searches, and more likely to take work under
:26:46. > :26:53.universal credit. Public Accounts Committee said this programme has
:26:54. > :27:01.been worse than doing nothing, for the long-term credit. It has not
:27:02. > :27:05.been a glorious success, has it? That is wrong. Right now the work
:27:06. > :27:10.programme is succeeding, more people are going to work, somewhere in the
:27:11. > :27:16.order of 500,000 people have gone back into work as a result of the
:27:17. > :27:20.programme. Around 280,000 people are in a sustained work over six
:27:21. > :27:27.months. Many companies are well above it, and the whole point about
:27:28. > :27:30.the work programme is that it is setup so that we make the private
:27:31. > :27:35.sector, two things that are important, there is competition in
:27:36. > :27:40.every area so that people can be sucked out of the programme and
:27:41. > :27:45.others can move in. The important point here as well is this, that
:27:46. > :27:50.actually they don't get paid unless they sustain somebody for six months
:27:51. > :27:53.of employment. Under previous programmes under the last
:27:54. > :27:58.government, they wasted millions paying companies who took the money
:27:59. > :28:04.and didn't do enough to get people into work. The best performing
:28:05. > :28:13.provider only moved 5% of people off benefit into work, the worst managed
:28:14. > :28:18.only 2%. It is young people. That report was on the early first months
:28:19. > :28:23.of the work programme, it is a two-year point we are now and I can
:28:24. > :28:27.give you the figures for this. They are above the line, the improvement
:28:28. > :28:31.has been dramatic and the work programme is better than any other
:28:32. > :28:41.back to work programme under the last government. So why is long-term
:28:42. > :28:47.unemployment rising? It is falling. We have the largest number of people
:28:48. > :28:53.back in work, there is more women in work than ever before, more jobs
:28:54. > :29:00.being created, 1.6 million new jobs being created. The work programme is
:29:01. > :29:03.working, our back to work programmes are incredibly successful at below
:29:04. > :29:08.cost so we are doing better than the last government ever did, and it
:29:09. > :29:13.will continue to improve because this process is very important. The
:29:14. > :29:18.competition is what drives up performance. We want the best
:29:19. > :29:23.performers to take the biggest numbers of people. You are
:29:24. > :29:28.practising Catholic, Archbishop Vincent Nichols has attached your
:29:29. > :29:32.reforms -- attack to your reforms, saying they are becoming more
:29:33. > :29:39.punitive to the most vulnerable in the land. What do you say? I don't
:29:40. > :29:41.agree. It would have been good if you called me before making these
:29:42. > :29:52.attacks because most are not correct.
:29:53. > :29:56.For the poorest temper sent in their society, they are now spending, as a
:29:57. > :30:01.percentage of their income, less than they did before. I'm not quite
:30:02. > :30:07.sure what he thinks welfare is about. Welfare is about stabilising
:30:08. > :30:11.people but most of all making sure that households can achieve what
:30:12. > :30:14.they need through work. The number of workless households under
:30:15. > :30:21.previous governments arose consistently. It has fallen for the
:30:22. > :30:25.first time in 30 years by nearly 18%. Something like a quarter of a
:30:26. > :30:28.million children were growing up in workless households and are now in
:30:29. > :30:32.households with work and they are three times more likely to grow up
:30:33. > :30:36.with work than they would have been in workless households. Let me come
:30:37. > :30:41.into something that he may have had in mind as being punitive - some
:30:42. > :30:44.other housing benefit changes. A year ago, the Prime Minister
:30:45. > :30:48.announced that people with severely disabled children would be exempt
:30:49. > :30:55.from the changes but that was only after your department fought a High
:30:56. > :30:59.Court battle over children who couldn't share a bedroom because of
:31:00. > :31:04.severe disabilities. Isn't that what the Archbishop means by punitive or,
:31:05. > :31:10.some may describe it, heartless. We were originally going to appeal that
:31:11. > :31:13.and I said no. You put it up for an appeal and I said no. We're talking
:31:14. > :31:18.about families with disabled children. There are good reasons for
:31:19. > :31:22.this. Children with conditions like that don't make decisions about
:31:23. > :31:27.their household - their parents do - so I said we would exempt them. But
:31:28. > :31:30.for adults with disabilities the courts have upheld all of our
:31:31. > :31:36.decisions against complaints. But you did appeal it. It's just that,
:31:37. > :31:40.having lost in the appeal court, you didn't then go to the Supreme Court.
:31:41. > :31:44.You make decisions about this. My view was that it was right to exempt
:31:45. > :31:49.them at that time. I made that decision, not the Prime Minister.
:31:50. > :31:52.Let's get this right - the context of this is quite important. Housing
:31:53. > :32:00.benefit under the last government doubled under the last ten years to
:32:01. > :32:03.?20 billion. It was set to rise to another 25 billion, the fastest
:32:04. > :32:07.rising of the benefits, it was out of control. We had to get it into
:32:08. > :32:12.control. It wasn't easy but we haven't cut the overall rise in
:32:13. > :32:14.housing. We've lowered it but we haven't cut housing benefit and
:32:15. > :32:19.we've tried to do it carefully so that people get a fair crack. On the
:32:20. > :32:24.spare room subsidy, which is what this complaint was about, the
:32:25. > :32:26.reality is that there are a quarter of a million people living in
:32:27. > :32:28.overcrowded accommodation. The last government left us with 1 million
:32:29. > :32:32.people on a waiting list for housing and there were half a million people
:32:33. > :32:36.sitting in houses with spare bedrooms they weren't using. As we
:32:37. > :32:40.build more houses, yes we need more, but the reality is that councils and
:32:41. > :32:43.others have to use their accommodation carefully so that they
:32:44. > :32:47.actually improve the lot of those living in desperate situations in
:32:48. > :32:50.overcrowded accommodation, and taxpayers are paying a lot of
:32:51. > :32:55.money. This will help people get back to work. They're more likely to
:32:56. > :32:58.go to work and more likely, therefore, to end up in the right
:32:59. > :33:05.sort of housing. We've not got much time left. A centre-right think tank
:33:06. > :33:09.that you've been associated with, on job-seeker's allowance, says 70,000
:33:10. > :33:17.job-seekers' benefits were withdrawn unfairly. A viewer wants to know,
:33:18. > :33:22.are these reforms too harsh and punitive? Those figures are not
:33:23. > :33:26.correct. The Policy Exchange is wrong? Those figures are not correct
:33:27. > :33:33.and we will be publishing corrected figures. The reality is... Some
:33:34. > :33:36.people have lost their job-seeker benefits and been forced to go to
:33:37. > :33:42.food backs and they shouldn't have. No, they're not. What he is
:33:43. > :33:45.referring to is that we allowed an adviser to make a decision if some
:33:46. > :33:50.but it is not cooperating. We now make people sign a contract, where
:33:51. > :33:53.they agree these things. These are things we do for you and if you
:33:54. > :33:57.don't do these things, you are likely to have your benefit
:33:58. > :34:00.withdrawn on job-seeker's allowance. Some of this was an fairly
:34:01. > :34:02.withdrawn. There are millions of these things that go through. This
:34:03. > :34:20.is a There is an immediate review. Within
:34:21. > :34:24.seven days they are able to get a hardship fund straightaway if there
:34:25. > :34:29.is a problem. We have nearly ?1 billion to set up to help people
:34:30. > :34:36.through hardship funds and crisis loans. We use that finance, giving
:34:37. > :34:41.it to local authorities. This is not a nasty and vicious system. It is a
:34:42. > :34:46.system which says, we ask you to do certain things, taxpayers pay this
:34:47. > :34:50.money, you are out of work but you have an obligation to seek work.
:34:51. > :34:55.Recently asked that you stick to doing those. The sanctions are there
:34:56. > :34:59.for people who will not co-operate. I think it is fair to say to them,
:35:00. > :35:03.this is a choice you make. You make choices all through your life. If
:35:04. > :35:09.you refuse to go operate, this is what happens. Is child poverty
:35:10. > :35:13.rising? No, it is falling. Can I show you these figures? These are
:35:14. > :35:21.from the Institute for fiscal studies. That is a projection. It
:35:22. > :35:25.also shows that it has gone up and will rise by 400,000 in this
:35:26. > :35:32.Parliament under your government. But never mind the projection. It
:35:33. > :35:36.will be 400,000 of when this Parliament ends compared to what
:35:37. > :35:41.you've inherited. Child poverty is rising. That is their projection, we
:35:42. > :35:47.will see where we are... That is the actual figures! The last figures
:35:48. > :35:52.show that child poverty has fallen by some 300,000. The important point
:35:53. > :35:56.is, if I can finish this point, child poverty is measured against
:35:57. > :35:59.60% of median income. This is an issue about how we measure child
:36:00. > :36:06.poverty. You want to change the measurements... We have been
:36:07. > :36:10.discussing publicly the figures. We have still got more work to do on
:36:11. > :36:14.them. There is a consensus that the way we measure child poverty right
:36:15. > :36:18.now does not measure exactly what requires to be done. For example, a
:36:19. > :36:21.family with an individual parents who may be drug addicted who gets
:36:22. > :36:25.what we think is enough money to be just over the line, their children
:36:26. > :36:28.may well be living in poverty, but they won't be measured, so the
:36:29. > :36:32.reality is that we need to get a measurement that looks at poverty in
:36:33. > :36:38.terms of how people live, not just in terms of the income levels they
:36:39. > :36:41.have. You can see from that chart, 400,000 rise in child poverty by the
:36:42. > :36:47.end of this Parliament. You are presiding an increase, that is why
:36:48. > :36:52.you want to change the definition. Under the last woman, child poverty
:36:53. > :36:57.rose consistently from 2004. They ended up throwing huge sums of money
:36:58. > :37:02.into tax credits. Tax credits, in six years before the last election,
:37:03. > :37:08.the last government spent 107 to ?5 billion chasing the poverty target
:37:09. > :37:26.and they didn't achieve what they set out to achieve -- ?105 billion.
:37:27. > :37:30.It is not a projection up to 2014. I put one final point to you. Again
:37:31. > :37:33.and again you say it is your mission to make work pay, that people will
:37:34. > :37:38.be better off if they work rather than living on welfare. More people
:37:39. > :37:43.in poverty are now in working families than in workless families.
:37:44. > :37:47.For them, work is not paying. Let me deal with those figures. They refer
:37:48. > :37:54.to the last government's time in power. What is interesting about it
:37:55. > :37:58.is up until 2010, under the last government, those in working
:37:59. > :38:04.families rose by half a million, those in poverty. It has been flat
:38:05. > :38:11.under this government. The only point I made about this, these
:38:12. > :38:16.figures are from the last government. The truth is, even if
:38:17. > :38:20.you are in poverty in a working family, your children, if you are in
:38:21. > :38:24.a workless family, are three times more likely to be out of work and to
:38:25. > :38:33.suffer real hardship. In other words, moving people up the scale
:38:34. > :38:38.into work and then on into higher areas is important. What we are
:38:39. > :38:43.doing now is changing the system so that you progress of woods and go
:38:44. > :38:46.out of poverty through work and up beyond it. Those figures you are
:38:47. > :38:53.referring to actually refer to the last government's tenure Tom and
:38:54. > :38:58.they spent ?105 billion on a tax credit which still left people in
:38:59. > :39:02.work in poverty. Even 20 minutes is not enough to go through all this!
:39:03. > :39:08.There is much more I would like to talk about. I will come back. Thank
:39:09. > :39:09.you very much. You are watching the Sunday
:39:10. > :39:16.Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who now leave us for
:39:17. > :39:19.Sunday Politics Scotland. Good morning and welcome to Sunday
:39:20. > :39:22.Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme, UKIP supporters in
:39:23. > :39:27.Scotland demand a rerun of the selection process for their European
:39:28. > :39:30.parliament candidate. The women from South Lanarkshire who fought and won
:39:31. > :39:34.parity of pay at work. And the Liberal Democrats
:39:35. > :39:41.I would just say, don't be scared and stand up for yourself. The time
:39:42. > :39:44.is now and it has got to change. And the Lib Dems are poised to publish
:39:45. > :39:50.their chance -- plans for further devolution. UKIP are on the march
:39:51. > :39:53.down South and they're hoping for success here in Scotland at the
:39:54. > :39:55.European parliamentary election in a couple of months.
:39:56. > :39:58.They're confident of winning at least one seat. But the party's
:39:59. > :40:01.perennial problem of in-fighting has reared its head here, with
:40:02. > :40:04.long-standing members calling for a re-run of the ballot which selected
:40:05. > :40:16.their MEP candidates for the May poll. Here's Andrew Kerr.
:40:17. > :40:21.UKIP are standing out, seen by many as driving the Conservatives'
:40:22. > :40:24.agenda, immigration and the UK's out -- relationship with Europe are
:40:25. > :40:28.never far from the headlines. Neither is their leader Nigel
:40:29. > :40:32.Farage. They are hoping to make news in Scotland in the European
:40:33. > :40:35.elections in May. This is their number one candidate. We have a good
:40:36. > :40:40.chance of getting at least one, possibly two, members of the
:40:41. > :40:44.European. That will give us a good stepping stone to getting people in
:40:45. > :40:55.to Westminster and into Holyrood. That is really our hope -- our
:40:56. > :41:00.objective. It is an ambition that seems fairly realistic, according to
:41:01. > :41:04.one political commentator. If you listen to UKIP, they feel they
:41:05. > :41:08.already have one seat in the bag. Some people within UKIP are talking
:41:09. > :41:14.about two seats. I think two an exaggeration. They might not get
:41:15. > :41:21.that, but they might get one. They probably need 10%, 9% of the vote to
:41:22. > :41:26.get a seat, a European seat in Scotland. That is within their
:41:27. > :41:33.reach. Scotland's MEPs stack up like this. We have two labour, two SNP,
:41:34. > :41:37.one conservative and one Lib Dems. Looking at UKIP's performance over
:41:38. > :41:41.the last year, their share has not been impressive in the by-elections.
:41:42. > :41:46.One recent poll did suggest support was at 7%, not far off what they
:41:47. > :41:52.need for a seat. But infighting is always to the fore. UKIP's former
:41:53. > :41:56.Scottish chairman received a 100 year ban from the party for speaking
:41:57. > :41:59.to the press over concerns about the European candidate selection
:42:00. > :42:05.process, which saw David Cockburn come out on top. The ban has been
:42:06. > :42:10.lifted, and he is calling for the selection process to be rerun. We
:42:11. > :42:17.have a ballot which is being taken place, which is skewed. We do not
:42:18. > :42:22.know who is actually the number one candidate. We are simply calling for
:42:23. > :42:25.a new ballot which we would run here in Scotland. We would actually
:42:26. > :42:31.publish the votes, because we still don't know what the votes were cast
:42:32. > :42:36.for whom, and we are the only region where that has not happened. UKIP
:42:37. > :42:41.has had an interesting journey. Remember them, the referendum party?
:42:42. > :42:44.This is from the 1997 general election. They paved the way for
:42:45. > :42:50.UKIP with a fairly unique anti-European attitude. A new
:42:51. > :42:54.Scottish UKIP MEP would fairly shake up the consensus amongst the current
:42:55. > :42:59.crop. Wouldn't it? Yes, very much so. If you have been an MEP in
:43:00. > :43:03.Scotland at any time in the past until now, you have been
:43:04. > :43:06.pro-European. It has been a qualification for the job to like
:43:07. > :43:09.Europe and the on side of the European Parliament. Now we have the
:43:10. > :43:15.possibility of one of the Scottish MEPs, possibly more, coming into
:43:16. > :43:21.that mix, who is defiantly anti-European. That will stir things
:43:22. > :43:26.up. The Labour MEP David Martin agrees. He is critical of UKIP's
:43:27. > :43:30.pager, dismissive of the right-wing parties with whom they choose to
:43:31. > :43:35.sit, and of their work ethic, which she has been observing since 1999. I
:43:36. > :43:41.stand to corrected, but I cannot -- I can only think of one campaign in
:43:42. > :43:44.a 15 year appeared -- period on which they make any impact, which
:43:45. > :43:50.was to do with Elektra next cigarette. Nigel Farage even did a
:43:51. > :43:55.video promoting electronic cigarettes. There must have been
:43:56. > :43:59.other major issues that they could have taken up in that time, but they
:44:00. > :44:04.haven't. This is the video in question, with Nigel Farage leading
:44:05. > :44:08.the charge as usual. UKIP success could tie in Scotland with the rest
:44:09. > :44:11.of the UK. They are expected to do well overall, but UKIP failure would
:44:12. > :44:17.highlight how diverging Scotland and England were on and perhaps impact
:44:18. > :44:21.on the referendum debate. Joining me now is UKIP chairman
:44:22. > :44:26.Steve Crowther who's in our Plymouth studio. Thank you for joining us.
:44:27. > :44:31.Good afternoon. Will you rerun the ballot for your candidate? No. The
:44:32. > :44:34.point about this if there are a small number of people who are
:44:35. > :44:38.unhappy with the outcome and the way in which we did it. We did it
:44:39. > :44:42.according to our rules, and David Cockburn came top of that process by
:44:43. > :44:47.absolutely a fair and square process. By how many votes? I have
:44:48. > :44:50.not released the vote of any of the ballot in any part of the UK. But
:44:51. > :44:56.there are figures on your website for the part of the UK, but not for
:44:57. > :44:58.Scotland. There was a situation where the National Executive
:44:59. > :45:04.Committee decided that they wished to take over the approval of the
:45:05. > :45:08.Scottish list, but I can tell you that David Cockburn came top of that
:45:09. > :45:18.ballot, and I will absolutely confirm that. And will you receive
:45:19. > :45:21.-- release the figures? No. Why not? The National Executive
:45:22. > :45:25.Committee runs this process. It is its prerogative to do so and it has
:45:26. > :45:31.fully backed the way in which it has been done. It has announced our list
:45:32. > :45:34.are we to go. It is a strong list. David Cockburn has always been our
:45:35. > :45:39.lead candidate from the time the ballot was run, and it is an
:45:40. > :45:44.extremely strong team of people. Were you surprised that your London
:45:45. > :45:51.chairman came out top on the ballot in Scotland? Not at all. He is a
:45:52. > :45:56.very able politician. He is Glasgow born, Scottish to his fingertips, he
:45:57. > :46:02.took part in the Scottish hustings during the process and he is
:46:03. > :46:10.absolutely the best candidate. Is there a UKIP framework in Scotland?
:46:11. > :46:14.Union is there an organisation? Yes. Yelena we have had a 50% increase of
:46:15. > :46:26.membership in Scotland over the last 12 months. To how many? Yelena
:46:27. > :46:30.Geddes over 800. It does look like your party is in disarray when six
:46:31. > :46:38.of your ninth European candidates pull out of the ballot. There was a
:46:39. > :46:43.dispute, but we now have a list of approved candidates, and extremely
:46:44. > :46:48.strong list. What is important is we are arriving in the polls at about
:46:49. > :46:52.17% in Scotland. You said early on that we are on the march down South,
:46:53. > :46:59.and rightly so. It is interesting to note that in a recent by-election,
:47:00. > :47:05.the Lib Dems were beaten by ten -- by an Elvis party. We have a good
:47:06. > :47:14.chance of getting our first seat, possibly two seats, in Scotland. But
:47:15. > :47:21.looking at recent by-elections, you have fallen in numbers. There is a
:47:22. > :47:24.clear explanation. The Scots are aware of democracy and sensitive to
:47:25. > :47:27.it, and first past the post elections are always challenging for
:47:28. > :47:33.small parties. In the European elections, proportional
:47:34. > :47:38.representation elections, every vote counts. UKIP is the only party
:47:39. > :47:43.offering a vote against the predations of the European Union.
:47:44. > :47:46.But when David Cockburn says that ultimately you need representation
:47:47. > :47:51.in Holyrood and Westminster, would you argue that ultimately that is
:47:52. > :47:54.not going to happen? No. It is absolutely going to happen. We have
:47:55. > :47:58.a tremendous momentum and what you were going to see in the European
:47:59. > :48:03.elections is a strong move forward for UKIP and that will be a platform
:48:04. > :48:07.for us to break into Westminster and Holyrood in the following year. But
:48:08. > :48:13.there is no electoral evidence of this, is there? 610 votes in the
:48:14. > :48:19.most recent by-election. As I said, there is the mention. But the
:48:20. > :48:23.momentum is going in the wrong direction! I don't think it is. Down
:48:24. > :48:27.South in the last year we have proved ourselves to be a viable
:48:28. > :48:38.electoral concept. Our successes in the county council elections are
:48:39. > :48:43.very close to success. The Scottish situation is essentially catching up
:48:44. > :48:48.with that and we will see after the European elections where we will
:48:49. > :48:52.make our breakthrough. The Scots will see that UKIP is a very viable
:48:53. > :48:59.electoral proposition. But do you accept the issues of immigration, a
:49:00. > :49:07.central plank of your policy, is different in Scotland? I dare say it
:49:08. > :49:10.is different in Scotland, but many people in Scotland said they wanted
:49:11. > :49:14.controls on immigration in Scotland and one third of people in Scotland
:49:15. > :49:19.said they would vote out if we had a referendum on EU membership, so
:49:20. > :49:24.clearly that momentum is in our direction. That when it comes to
:49:25. > :49:27.balancing the economy in Scotland, immigration is an important part of
:49:28. > :49:32.that, bringing in key workers. Is that something you could support?
:49:33. > :49:37.Absolutely. Our policy is not to ban immigration wholesale, but to
:49:38. > :49:41.control it. While we are in the EU, we are not capable of controlling
:49:42. > :49:46.immigration because the free movement of labour of 500 million
:49:47. > :49:51.people across Europe. We want to manage that situation, have people
:49:52. > :49:58.come here and our people go elsewhere, but on a managed basis.
:49:59. > :50:01.When people say there is a lack of professionalism in your party, does
:50:02. > :50:12.the infighting we have seen recently back that up? I don't think that's
:50:13. > :50:22.true. Political parties have strong minded people. It has been said that
:50:23. > :50:27.your party is run by racists with extremist, right-wing views. That
:50:28. > :50:36.comes from the man who used to run your party. Use the two, being the
:50:37. > :50:49.operative word. -- Used to. There is an influx of members of young people
:50:50. > :50:56.in Scotland. When you get comments like Glasgow is for -- Glasgow City
:50:57. > :51:02.Council is for gays, Communist and Catholics, as quoted by one of your
:51:03. > :51:06.members. He is an excellent chairman, making a comment within a
:51:07. > :51:13.context, he comes from a mixed background himself and is a fine man
:51:14. > :51:19.who works full-time for charity. You endorse those comments? I don't know
:51:20. > :51:23.what that situation is. He was speaking in context about the
:51:24. > :51:31.perception that persists about Glasgow City Council.
:51:32. > :51:35.Thank you for joining us. Now to a long-running battle over
:51:36. > :51:38.equal pay for women. You might think that belongs to the history books.
:51:39. > :51:41.Well, you'd be wrong. In recent years, there have been several
:51:42. > :51:44.claims against Scottish councils where women argued they were earning
:51:45. > :51:47.less than men doing similar jobs. One long-running dispute involving
:51:48. > :51:50.thousands of current and former workers in South Lanarkshire has
:51:51. > :51:52.just been settled and the women affected will receive cash, but
:51:53. > :52:01.other cases remain unresolved. Here's our local government
:52:02. > :52:04.correspondent Jamie McIvor. This struggles for equality for women may
:52:05. > :52:11.seem like the other from another era. As, the struggle for the boat
:52:12. > :52:18.one century ago. Then the claim to outlaw sex discrimination was
:52:19. > :52:27.finally won in the 1970s. The big battles were fought and won a while
:52:28. > :52:31.ago, but skirmishes can still take place. One has been rumbling for
:52:32. > :52:37.several years. That is all of us now. Fighting for equality. This
:52:38. > :52:40.group of women are just a tiny number of the latest group to win a
:52:41. > :52:53.victory. Perhaps getting some inspiration from Mrs Pankhurst. This
:52:54. > :52:57.Museum respects the achievements of women in the past, but we are
:52:58. > :53:04.delighted that women in the present are making equality and reality.
:53:05. > :53:10.It has been a long-running and contributed dispute. At its root,
:53:11. > :53:15.the overall pay package for certain jobs, once things like bonuses were
:53:16. > :53:25.included. As a job mostly done by women, such as IKEA will -- such as
:53:26. > :53:34.a care worker the same as a job done by men, such as a refuge collector.
:53:35. > :53:40.It boils down to our jobs not being as regarded as equal. I couldn't
:53:41. > :53:47.believe when I was told it was still happening in this day and age. I
:53:48. > :53:55.just felt that we did work hard and I think they are entitled to the
:53:56. > :53:59.same wage as the men were getting. Definitely the future generation
:54:00. > :54:03.will be doing that type of work and people get equal pay. Don't be
:54:04. > :54:10.scared and stand up for yourself. The time has come and has to
:54:11. > :54:13.change. It is a victory for women. The battle is won by the
:54:14. > :54:18.suffragettes were much more fundamental. They were about
:54:19. > :54:22.changing the law and society. South Lanarkshire Council says it was
:54:23. > :54:30.always committed to the principle of equal pay, but the exact details of
:54:31. > :54:36.this latest settlement are confidential.
:54:37. > :54:40.The Scottish Liberal Democrats are to outline the next step in their
:54:41. > :54:43.plans for more powers early next week. The Campbell II report will
:54:44. > :54:46.set out areas of common ground between parties on which further
:54:47. > :54:48.powers could be devolved to Scotland. But first, here's what the
:54:49. > :54:51.other parties are saying. Earlier this week, the Deputy First
:54:52. > :54:54.Minister cautioned an audience in Glasgow that anything less than
:54:55. > :54:58.independence would fall short of tackling the problems facing the
:54:59. > :55:02.country. None of the parties against independents have produced
:55:03. > :55:07.substantial proposals capable of meeting those national challenges.
:55:08. > :55:13.There is no joint agreement or timescale. To vote now is to leave
:55:14. > :55:17.Scotland's future in Westminster's hands. I believe it is time to take
:55:18. > :55:20.Scotland's future into Scotland's hands.
:55:21. > :55:23.At its spring conference in Perth in two weeks' time, Scottish Labour is
:55:24. > :55:25.preparing to unveil the recommendations of its internal
:55:26. > :55:28.devolution commission. MP Douglas Alexander has urged them to act
:55:29. > :55:31.boldly, transferring new powers on tax, elections and employment
:55:32. > :55:33.schemes to Holyrood. The Scottish Conservatives have previously
:55:34. > :55:36.resisted demands for further powers, but leader Ruth Davidson has now
:55:37. > :55:43.appointed an expert commission to examine the issue. It will report in
:55:44. > :55:46.May. So just how can the three pro-Unionist parties reach that
:55:47. > :55:52.common ground and in what time frame? To answer this, Scottish
:55:53. > :55:54.Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie joins me now along with
:55:55. > :56:01.Professor John Curtice from Strathclyde University.
:56:02. > :56:04.Willie Rennie, how can you outline a report that talks about common
:56:05. > :56:07.ground when we have not had the reports from Labour and the
:56:08. > :56:12.Conservatives? If you look at where we have come from since the report
:56:13. > :56:18.was produced in 2012, where a substantial transfer of financial
:56:19. > :56:22.and constitutional power was set out, there has been a massive shift
:56:23. > :56:27.of gravity in this debate. We have had contributions from Douglas
:56:28. > :56:35.Alexander and with Davidson, but we have also had Gordon Brown, and Jim
:56:36. > :56:39.Murphy making substantial contributions. There has been a
:56:40. > :56:43.major shift. It is inevitable that we will get more powers. What is
:56:44. > :56:50.this new report say about these areas of common ground? What I have
:56:51. > :56:56.tasked Sir Menzies Campbell with doing is to draw together the
:56:57. > :57:00.different strands of the argument that have been put by people from
:57:01. > :57:08.different parties, and he will set out a timescale, a route map for
:57:09. > :57:14.more powers for the Scottish Parliament. What is that timescale?
:57:15. > :57:18.We are told that if there is a yes in September's vote, we could reach
:57:19. > :57:25.a point of independence in 18 months. Is this same true for
:57:26. > :57:31.further powers for the parliament? I believe that to Sir Menzies
:57:32. > :57:36.Campbell. He will set out in detail what we want to do for the next
:57:37. > :57:38.stage. People like the Scottish parliament, but they know that
:57:39. > :57:44.something is missing. And that is the ability to raise and set our own
:57:45. > :57:50.taxes so that we not only decide how to cut up the cake, but the size of
:57:51. > :57:54.the cake. But that is the very issue valuable find any consensus at all.
:57:55. > :57:59.You are talking about what Gordon Murphy and Jim Murphy has said, that
:58:00. > :58:02.there were disagreements within the Labour Party who are very unhappy
:58:03. > :58:10.about the idea of devolving tax powers. And the Tories might look at
:58:11. > :58:15.further devilish and, but corporation tax -- devolution max,
:58:16. > :58:26.but corporation tax is not one area he would not concede. There are
:58:27. > :58:29.significant senior figures in the Labour Party that are making a
:58:30. > :58:35.strong case for more powers. I like Brian Taylor's comparison he talks
:58:36. > :58:38.about living diagram where there is a considerable degree of overlap
:58:39. > :58:44.between the different parties. I think it will become apparent as we
:58:45. > :58:52.move forward as the other parties publish their proposals that
:58:53. > :58:58.everybody is heading in the same direction. Is your message vote now
:58:59. > :59:03.and you may get more powers? You cannot guarantee that those powers
:59:04. > :59:10.will be delivered, it is down to the Westminster Parliament. I think it
:59:11. > :59:15.is clear that the change, but shift in the centre of gravity in this
:59:16. > :59:18.debate now means that we are going to get more powers. Of course there
:59:19. > :59:30.will be discussions as to what those powers will be, but David Mundell
:59:31. > :59:36.has said in an article, he has said they will not be the block that they
:59:37. > :59:45.have been in the past. More is yet to come. Is Willie Rennie's optimism
:59:46. > :59:48.well-placed? I think he is correct that there are movements both in
:59:49. > :59:53.labour and the Conservatives towards more devolution. But getting an
:59:54. > :00:03.agreed consensus between the parties may be more difficult than
:00:04. > :00:08.constructing and then diagram -- a Venn diagram. The problem will not
:00:09. > :00:22.be with the Conservatives, but the Labour Party. Ruth Davidson has been
:00:23. > :00:28.arguing for more tax devolution. I think the Labour Party is more
:00:29. > :00:39.reluctant to come to any agreement. If you look at the interim report
:00:40. > :00:46.became with 12 months ago, the main area of disagreement was corporation
:00:47. > :00:51.tax. They are looking forward to the prospect of a majority Labour
:00:52. > :00:55.government in 2015 and they will then see the other party of
:00:56. > :01:00.devolution and they will deliver. I think we will find that it is Labour
:01:01. > :01:07.who will be reluctant to sign up to any agreement. We know that the
:01:08. > :01:14.public like the idea of devo max, but how do you campaign on that in a
:01:15. > :01:19.referendum when the parties are offering different propositions? One
:01:20. > :01:24.of the difficulties of the no campaign is that they cannot paint
:01:25. > :01:34.an agreed picture for their vision of their vision of -- an agreed
:01:35. > :01:42.picture of their vision for a united kingdom. At the end of the day, it
:01:43. > :01:46.is difficult to persuade the other three parties to agree on
:01:47. > :01:50.substantive political policy. Insofar as they are struggling to
:01:51. > :01:54.come up with an agreed vision of the powers of the Scottish Parliament,
:01:55. > :01:59.they are potentially exposing themselves to risk. For the most
:02:00. > :02:03.part, it looks as if the supporters of more devolution are going to vote
:02:04. > :02:08.now rather than years and that is because the group still has
:02:09. > :02:12.considerable reservations about whether independence is a good idea
:02:13. > :02:18.for Scotland, but that is the potential soft underbelly of the no
:02:19. > :02:24.vote. If I was campaigning for the no side, I would try to minimise
:02:25. > :02:28.that risk. But all three parties are not only fighting for the
:02:29. > :02:34.referendum, they are positioning themselves for the elections in 2015
:02:35. > :02:47.and 2016. In terms of the margin of victory, one way or the other, if it
:02:48. > :02:50.is a narrow no vote, does that... Will some people in England see
:02:51. > :02:56.there is not another tape for change? If people want to continue
:02:57. > :03:00.devolution max on if they vote for independence, they are ending that.
:03:01. > :03:04.There is a danger that if you think you can vote yes in comfort that you
:03:05. > :03:09.will not get independents and you will get more powers, it is a
:03:10. > :03:13.dangerous game to play. Alex Salmond has written to the
:03:14. > :03:19.Ministry of Defence and David Cameron about this radiation leak at
:03:20. > :03:24.Dounreay. He is very angry that Scottish ministers were not told
:03:25. > :03:27.about this for two years. This is a very serious issue. We need to make
:03:28. > :03:32.sure that in the matter of nuclear power, we are abiding by all the
:03:33. > :03:38.regulations very strictly. As far as I understand, the appropriate
:03:39. > :03:52.environment agency, SEPA, was informed. Should ministers have been
:03:53. > :03:58.followed -- informed? I believe the rules were followed.
:03:59. > :04:01.You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Time now for the news from
:04:02. > :04:05.Reporting Scotland with Andrew Kerr. Good afternoon. Alex Salmond has
:04:06. > :04:07.written to the Prime Minister, demanding an apology after it
:04:08. > :04:14.emerged Scottish ministers were not told about a radiation leak at
:04:15. > :04:17.Dounreay two years ago. The Defence Secretary revealed details of the
:04:18. > :04:19.incident for the first time on Thursday. Labour wants an inquiry,
:04:20. > :04:22.saying public confidence has been damaged. The Ministry of Defence
:04:23. > :04:27.says relevant agencies were kept informed.
:04:28. > :04:30.The Liberal Democrats will spell out their plans for getting more powers
:04:31. > :04:35.for the Scottish Parliament tomorrow if independence is rejected. The
:04:36. > :04:38.senior Lib Dem MP, Sir Menzies Campbell, has updated an earlier
:04:39. > :04:47.report which looked at devolving new tax powers to Holyrood. Speaking on
:04:48. > :04:51.this programme, the Scottish Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie said there had
:04:52. > :04:57.been a massive shift in the stands of prounion parties to favour more
:04:58. > :05:00.devolved powers. A yachtsman from Shetland is waiting
:05:01. > :05:03.to be rescued by Chilean coastguards after his mast broke in a huge
:05:04. > :05:05.storm. 54-year-old Andrew Halcrow was attempting to sail
:05:06. > :05:07.single-handed, nonstop round the world. His wife said that he was
:05:08. > :05:08.uninjured. Now let's take a look at the weather
:05:09. > :05:11.with Judith. single-handed, nonstop round the
:05:12. > :05:15.Good afternoon. A fairly cloudy afternoon and damp in nature.
:05:16. > :05:22.Actually been and is for many parts of the country thanks to a weather
:05:23. > :05:24.front sinking southwards. Drier conditions developing across the far
:05:25. > :05:31.north-west. Quite a brisk wind here. Later when thes further south.
:05:32. > :05:35.As we head into the evening, the wind returns to most places for our
:05:36. > :05:38.time, but then it becomes drier overnight, turning colder.
:05:39. > :05:56.That is it for now. I am joined by Robbie Dinwoodie, the
:05:57. > :06:06.Herald's correspondent, and freelance journalist Anna Burnside.
:06:07. > :06:10.The Ministry of Defence has been accused of deception over a
:06:11. > :06:15.radioactive leak at Dounreay. Alex Salmond seems very angry about the
:06:16. > :06:18.situation. There is a degree of manufactured outrage about this. The
:06:19. > :06:27.most effective -- offensive thing was when Philip Hammond said that
:06:28. > :06:32.all the relevant time -- authority said the -- authorities had been
:06:33. > :06:36.informed. If you do not consider the Scottish Government to be a relevant
:06:37. > :06:39.authority, there is something wrong. There has been no major league. I
:06:40. > :06:49.think it would be wrong to talk this up into some massive environmental
:06:50. > :06:57.story. He says that the way this has been handled is underhand and
:06:58. > :07:01.disrespectful foot. As Robbie said, this is the kind of thing they have
:07:02. > :07:05.been waiting for, an issue that everyone in Scotland can look at and
:07:06. > :07:10.say, that is a piece of nonsense. But would you not expect Scottish
:07:11. > :07:13.ministers to be insulted by this? Of course I would. I am not denying
:07:14. > :07:19.that they are right to be making a fuss about this. It is nonsense that
:07:20. > :07:23.it took two years for any of to find this out, but I think we can be
:07:24. > :07:32.prepared for plenty more manufactured indignation. That's
:07:33. > :07:43.talk about further powers for the Scottish parliament if there is a no
:07:44. > :07:49.vote in the independence referendum. There is a strand of Labour thinking
:07:50. > :07:51.that agrees with that. There is also a strand of Labour thinking that
:07:52. > :07:58.disagrees with handing over powers, British elite -- particularly income
:07:59. > :08:02.tax and welfare. The problem is not whether or not these are good or bad
:08:03. > :08:09.ideas, the problem is that the party this is being pitched to is in
:08:10. > :08:12.itself in disagreement. That disagreement is coming from MPs, not
:08:13. > :08:18.exclusively, but quite a vocal number of MPs, and they are the ones
:08:19. > :08:21.that will have to steer this through Westminster if it is to be
:08:22. > :08:31.proposed. Yes, good look with that! There is much to commend in this
:08:32. > :08:37.story. It makes a lot of sense, but will it ever be pulled together?
:08:38. > :08:46.That is what would have to take the rain check on, I think. The Sunday
:08:47. > :08:52.Herald is saying that the next chair of MPs, Michael McCann, has branded
:08:53. > :08:59.Devo Max has not serious politics. This is another example of the way
:09:00. > :09:01.this split goes. What was interesting recently about
:09:02. > :09:05.interventions from Douglas Alexander and Jim Murphy, they were clear
:09:06. > :09:16.attempts to say it is not all MPs versus MSPs. It is not all hostile
:09:17. > :09:19.down there. If you are going to talk about a partial boycott of their own
:09:20. > :09:23.conference in protest at this, it is a sign of deep division. Do you get
:09:24. > :09:30.the sense that Johann Lamont will be able to give -- bring all the sides
:09:31. > :09:35.together? That would be a first. She has not got a strong track record.
:09:36. > :09:41.Again, good luck. We will all be watching. Interesting story on the
:09:42. > :09:46.front page of the Sunday Times. According to an EU law expert, Aidan
:09:47. > :09:50.O'Neill, the First Minister acted illegally by denying exiled Scots
:09:51. > :09:56.vote in the referendum. This is being challenged to allow Scots
:09:57. > :10:01.living outside to actually vote in the referendum. Where do you see
:10:02. > :10:08.this going? Is I am curious about the story. It comes from a complaint
:10:09. > :10:20.from James Wallace, a lawyer living in London. Aidan O'Neill is
:10:21. > :10:28.undoubtedly an EU expert, but he's the go to man for sceptics. If you
:10:29. > :10:32.think same-sex marriage might reach European law, he is the money go to.
:10:33. > :10:36.Fair enough, an interesting story, but if he is accusing the Scottish
:10:37. > :10:40.Government of getting this Arab League wrong and ignoring EU law, he
:10:41. > :10:46.is also accusing the UK government, because it is based on the Edinburgh
:10:47. > :10:56.Agreement. A spokesperson for the Scottish Government has said that it
:10:57. > :11:01.is full -- beyond question. Having worked at the Sunday Times, the
:11:02. > :11:07.whole story had the air of, can we say about it. It felt like a
:11:08. > :11:11.speculative story, and you have just identified one of the holes in
:11:12. > :11:15.this. Would anybody actually pursue this? We watch with interest. The
:11:16. > :11:20.Sunday Express has carried out a poll, and they extrapolate a
:11:21. > :11:23.suggestion which says that more than 500,000 Scots have been abused or
:11:24. > :11:26.threatened over their views on the referendum. They say that some
:11:27. > :11:32.people are afraid to speak up. You get this business, afraid to speak
:11:33. > :11:38.of. I don't see that in recent days! It is hard to prove. It
:11:39. > :11:42.depends what level of threat there has been. Everyone is busy having
:11:43. > :11:47.their say. I do not see much sign that people are being cowed into
:11:48. > :11:51.silence. People are also suggesting that people have been writing the
:11:52. > :11:57.newspapers writing to express a view, and men have received letters
:11:58. > :12:02.expressing striding oppositional views. If that is happening, that is
:12:03. > :12:10.wrong. That is not something I have been aware of. On Twitter, if you
:12:11. > :12:15.put your head over the parapet, get your tin hat on, because the debate
:12:16. > :12:20.is robust, to put it mildly. That is good! A range of people are involved
:12:21. > :12:25.in this debate, the likes of which we have never seen before. It is the
:12:26. > :12:33.roundabout and the swings. To go back to what we are going to get
:12:34. > :12:39.from the Campbell II report, do you expect it will make much progress? I
:12:40. > :12:43.think it will lay out more of the Lib Dem position, which is easy for
:12:44. > :12:47.them, because they are the natural party of Home Rule. They do not have
:12:48. > :12:50.internal divisions on this. They want a federal Britain. For then it
:12:51. > :12:55.is easy. The problem is, they can say all they like, what influence
:12:56. > :12:59.will they have left on the Labour Party and the Tories in the years to
:13:00. > :13:03.come, because the perception appear if they are going to pay a heavy
:13:04. > :13:07.price for being part of the Coalition in Westminster. We have
:13:08. > :13:15.Gordon Brown making a speech, taking a greater role in this campaign
:13:16. > :13:18.lately. I wonder if the SNP feel interventions from ministers at
:13:19. > :13:23.Westminster are helpful to the yes campaign? Is the same view taken of
:13:24. > :13:28.Gordon Brown? Yes, I would say so. That has been the second air punch
:13:29. > :13:34.of the week after Dounreay. Extremely unpopular in Scotland. It
:13:35. > :13:41.is treated with suspicion by quite a few people, so good news for them, I
:13:42. > :13:45.would say. Thank you very much. That is all from us this week. The
:13:46. > :13:49.programme is back at the same time next week. Until then, do enjoy what
:13:50. > :13:55.is left of your. From everyone here, goodbye.