:00:35. > :00:42.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne's fifth
:00:43. > :00:45.Budget will offer more tax relief for the lower paid, but not for
:00:46. > :00:50.middle income earners being thrust into the 40p tax bracket. That's our
:00:51. > :00:53.Top Story. Ed Balls says millions of people aren't feeling any benefit
:00:54. > :00:56.from the recovery. We'll discuss the economy with big political beasts
:00:57. > :01:02.from Labour, the Conservatives, and the Lib Dems. Now that Ed Miliband
:01:03. > :01:05.has effectively ruled out an IN/OUT EU referendum how does UKIP deal
:01:06. > :01:08.with Tory claims that a vote for UKIP means no chance of a
:01:09. > :01:18.referendum. UKIP leader Nigel Farage joins me for the Sunday Interview.
:01:19. > :01:21.Coming up in Sunday Politics Scotland. The Conservatives say
:01:22. > :01:22.they're committed to more powers for the Scottish Parliament, but are
:01:23. > :01:39.they serious about delivering them? Lewis and Janan Ganesh. They'll be
:01:40. > :01:44.tweeting their thoughts using the hashtag #bbcsp throughout the
:01:45. > :01:46.programme. So, just three months after his last major financial
:01:47. > :01:52.statement, George Osborne will be at the despatch box again on Wednesday,
:01:53. > :01:55.delivering his 2014 Budget. The Chancellor has already previewed his
:01:56. > :02:05.own speech, pledging to build what he calls a "resilient economy". The
:02:06. > :02:09.message I will give in the Budget is the economic plan is working but the
:02:10. > :02:12.job is far from done. We need to build resilient economy which means
:02:13. > :02:16.addressing the long-term weaknesses in Britain that we don't export
:02:17. > :02:20.enough, invest enough, build enough, make enough. Those are the things I
:02:21. > :02:24.will address because we want Britain to earn its way in the world. George
:02:25. > :02:27.Osborne's opposite number, Ed Balls, has also been talking ahead of the
:02:28. > :02:30.Budget. He says not everyone is feeling the benefit of the economic
:02:31. > :02:37.recovery, and again attacked the Government's decision to reduce the
:02:38. > :02:41.top rate of tax from 50 to 45%. George Osborne is only ever tough
:02:42. > :02:43.when he's having a go at the week and the voiceless. Labour is willing
:02:44. > :02:47.to face up to people on the highest incomes and say, I'm sorry,
:02:48. > :02:53.justifying a big tax cut at this time is not fair. We will take away
:02:54. > :02:57.the winter allowance from the richer pensioners, and I think that's the
:02:58. > :03:03.right thing to do. George Osborne might agree, but he's not allowed to
:03:04. > :03:06.say so. That was the Chancellor and the shadow chancellor. Janan, it
:03:07. > :03:10.seems like we are in a race against time. No one argues that the
:03:11. > :03:14.recovery is not under way, in fact it looks quite strong after a long
:03:15. > :03:20.wait, but will it feed through to the living standards of ordinary
:03:21. > :03:24.people in time for the May election? They only have 14 months to do it.
:03:25. > :03:28.The big economic variable is business investment. Even during the
:03:29. > :03:33.downturn, businesses hoarded a lot of cash. The question is, are they
:03:34. > :03:37.confident enough to release that into investment and wages? Taking on
:03:38. > :03:40.new people, giving them higher pay settlements. That could make the
:03:41. > :03:46.difference and the country will feel more prosperous and this time next
:03:47. > :03:51.year. But come to think of it, it strikes me, that how anticipated it
:03:52. > :03:54.is, it's the least talked about Budget for many years. I think that
:03:55. > :03:58.is because the economy has settled down a bit, but also because people
:03:59. > :04:02.have got used to the idea that there is no such thing as a giveaway.
:04:03. > :04:07.Anything that is a tax cut will be taken away as a tax rise or spending
:04:08. > :04:11.cut. That's true during the good times but during fiscal
:04:12. > :04:17.consolidation, it's avoidable. -- unavoidable. There is a plus and
:04:18. > :04:22.minus for the Conservatives here. 49% of people think the government
:04:23. > :04:24.is on roughly the right course, but only 16% think that their financial
:04:25. > :04:29.circumstances will improve this year. It will be a tough one for the
:04:30. > :04:35.Labour Party to respond to. I agree with Janan. Everyone seems bored
:04:36. > :04:40.with the run-up to the Budget. The front page of the Sunday Times was
:04:41. > :04:45.about fox hunting, the front page of the Sunday Telegraph was about EU
:04:46. > :04:50.renegotiation. Maybe we are saying this because there have not been
:04:51. > :04:55.many leaks. We have got used to them, and most of the George Osborne
:04:56. > :04:59.chat on Twitter was about how long his tie was. Freakishly long. I
:05:00. > :05:06.wouldn't dare to speculate why. Anything we should read into that? I
:05:07. > :05:13.don't know. For a long while there was no recovery, then it was it is a
:05:14. > :05:16.weak recovery, and now, all right, it's strong but not reaching
:05:17. > :05:22.everyone in the country. That is where we are in the debate. That's
:05:23. > :05:28.right, and the Conservative MPs are so anxious and they are making
:05:29. > :05:32.George Osborne announcing the rays in the personal allowance will go
:05:33. > :05:40.up, saying it might go up to 10,750 from next year, and Conservative MPs
:05:41. > :05:44.say that that's OK but we need to think about the middle voters.
:05:45. > :05:47.People are saying the economy is recovering but no one is feeling it
:05:48. > :05:52.in their pocket. These are people snagged in at a 40p tax rate. The
:05:53. > :05:56.Tories are saying these are our people and we have to get to them.
:05:57. > :06:02.He has given the Lib Dems more than they could have hoped for on raising
:06:03. > :06:06.the threshold. Why is he not saying we have done a bit for you, now we
:06:07. > :06:13.have to look after our people and get some of these people out of that
:06:14. > :06:15.40% bracket? Partly because the Lib Dems have asked for it so
:06:16. > :06:19.insistently behind-the-scenes. Somebody from the Treasury this week
:06:20. > :06:22.told me that these debates behind the scenes between the Lib Dems and
:06:23. > :06:27.Tories are incredibly tenacious and get more so every year. The Lib Dems
:06:28. > :06:32.have been insistent about going further on the threshold. The second
:06:33. > :06:38.reason is that the Tories think the issue can work for them in the next
:06:39. > :06:41.election. They can take the credit. If they enthusiastically going to
:06:42. > :06:46.?12,000 and make it a manifesto pledge, they can claim ownership of
:06:47. > :06:51.the policy. The Liberal Democrats want to take it to 12,500, which
:06:52. > :06:55.means you are getting into minimum wage territory. It's incredibly
:06:56. > :07:00.expensive and the Tories are saying that maybe you would be looking at
:07:01. > :07:04.the 40p rate. The Tories have played as well. There have been authorised
:07:05. > :07:07.briefings about the 40p rate, and Cameron and Osborne have said that
:07:08. > :07:10.their priority was helping the lowest paid which is a useful
:07:11. > :07:16.statement to make and it appeals to the UKIP voters who are the
:07:17. > :07:21.blue-collar workers. And we are right, the economy will determine
:07:22. > :07:24.the next election? You assume so. It was ever that is. It didn't in 1992
:07:25. > :07:34.or 1987. It did in 1992. Ed Miliband's announcement last week
:07:35. > :07:37.that a Labour government would not hold a referendum on Europe unless
:07:38. > :07:39.there's another transfer of powers from Britain to Brussels has
:07:40. > :07:44.certainly clarified matters. UKIP say it just shows the mainstream
:07:45. > :07:47.parties can't be trusted. The Conservatives think it means UKIP
:07:48. > :07:50.voters might now flock back to them as the only realistic chance of
:07:51. > :07:54.securing a referendum. Giles Dilnot reports.
:07:55. > :07:58.When it comes to Europe and Britain's relation to it, the
:07:59. > :08:03.question is whether the answer is answered by a question. To be in or
:08:04. > :08:05.not to be in, that is the question, and our politicians have seemed less
:08:06. > :08:09.interested in question itself but whether they want to let us answer
:08:10. > :08:22.it. Labour clarified their position last week. There will be no transfer
:08:23. > :08:24.of powers without an in out referendum, without a clear choice
:08:25. > :08:30.as to whether Britain will stay in the EU. That seems yes to a
:08:31. > :08:34.referendum, but hold on. I believe it is unlikely that this lock will
:08:35. > :08:37.be used in the next Parliament. So that's a no. The Conservatives say
:08:38. > :08:47.yes to asking, in 2017, if re-elected, but haven't always. In
:08:48. > :08:50.2011, 81 Tory MPs defied the PM by voting for a referendum on EU
:08:51. > :08:53.membership: the largest rebellion against a Tory prime minister over
:08:54. > :09:04.Europe. Prompted by a petition from over 100,000 members of the public.
:09:05. > :09:06.The wrong question at the wrong time said the Foreign Secretary of a
:09:07. > :09:08.coalition Government including selfie-conciously-pro European Lib
:09:09. > :09:11.Dems, who had a referendum pledge in their 2010 manifesto, but only in
:09:12. > :09:14.certain circumstances. So we have the newspapers, and the public
:09:15. > :09:17.meeting leaflets. UKIP have always wanted the question put regardless.
:09:18. > :09:25.But Labour's new position may change things and The Conservatives think
:09:26. > :09:31.so. I think it does, because, you know, we are saying very clearly,
:09:32. > :09:36.like UKIP, we want a referendum, but only a Conservative government can
:09:37. > :09:42.deliver it because most suffer largest would say it is possible in
:09:43. > :09:50.the first past the post system to have a UKIP government --
:09:51. > :09:58.sophologists. And then it's easy for as to say that if a UKIP vote lets
:09:59. > :10:04.in a Conservative government, then they won't hold a referendum. UKIP
:10:05. > :10:07.seem undaunted by the clarifications of the other parties, campaigning
:10:08. > :10:10.like the rest but with a "tell it how it is, just saying what you're
:10:11. > :10:16.thinking, we aren't like them" attitude. They seem more worried
:10:17. > :10:21.about us and what we want, and I don't see that in the other parties.
:10:22. > :10:28.In parts of the UK, like South Essex, it's a message they think is
:10:29. > :10:31.working. They are taking the voters for granted again and people have
:10:32. > :10:38.had enough. People are angry, they see people saying they will get a
:10:39. > :10:43.vote on the European Union, but then it just comes down the road. They
:10:44. > :10:49.were quick to capitalise on the announcements, saying only the
:10:50. > :10:54.Conservatives will give you say, so does it change things? Not really.
:10:55. > :10:58.We have been talking about a referendum and having a debate on
:10:59. > :11:02.the European Union for years, and the other parties are playing catch
:11:03. > :11:06.up. They have a trust issue. Nobody trusts them on the European Union
:11:07. > :11:09.and that is why people come to us. Who the average UKIP voter is, or
:11:10. > :11:12.how they voted before is complicated, and what dent they
:11:13. > :11:15.might make on Conservative and Labour votes in 2015 is trickier
:11:16. > :11:23.still, but someone's been crunching the numbers anyway. We reckon it is
:11:24. > :11:27.between 25 and 30% of the electorate broadly share the UKIP motivation,
:11:28. > :11:30.so to top out at that level would be difficult. That's an awful lot of
:11:31. > :11:35.voters, but it's not the majority, and this is the reason why the main
:11:36. > :11:38.parties can't afford to just openly appealed to the UKIP electorate too
:11:39. > :11:44.hard because the elections are won and lost amongst the other 70%, the
:11:45. > :11:49.middle-class, the graduate, the younger, ethnic minorities. An
:11:50. > :11:52.appeal to the values of UKIP voters will alienate some of the other
:11:53. > :11:56.groups, and they are arguably more significant in winning the election.
:11:57. > :11:59.Whatever, the numbers UKIPers seem doggedly determined to dig away at
:12:00. > :12:02.any support the other parties have previously enjoyed.
:12:03. > :12:05.Giles Dilnot reporting. UKIP's leader, Nigel Farage, joins me now
:12:06. > :12:22.for the Sunday Interview. Nigel Farage, welcome back. Good
:12:23. > :12:25.morning. So the Labour Party has shot a fox. If Ed Miliband is the
:12:26. > :12:29.next by Minister, there will not be a referendum customer there's a long
:12:30. > :12:33.way between now and the next election, and Conservative party
:12:34. > :12:36.jobs and changes. We had a cast-iron guarantee of a referendum from
:12:37. > :12:41.camera, then he three line whip people to vote against it, and now
:12:42. > :12:44.they are for it. What the Labour Party has done is open up a huge
:12:45. > :12:48.blank to us, and that is what we will go for in the European
:12:49. > :12:52.elections this coming year in May. I think there is a very strong chance
:12:53. > :12:55.that Labour will match the Conservative pledge by the next
:12:56. > :13:00.general election. There may be, but at the moment he has ruled it out,
:13:01. > :13:03.and if he does not change his mind and goes into the election with the
:13:04. > :13:10.policy as it is, the only chance of a referendum is a Tory government.
:13:11. > :13:14.If you think the Tories will form a majority, which I think is unlikely.
:13:15. > :13:17.Remember, two thirds of our voters would never vote Conservative
:13:18. > :13:22.anyway. There is still this line of questioning that assumes UKIP voters
:13:23. > :13:25.are middle-class Tories. We have some voters like that, but most of
:13:26. > :13:31.them are coming to us from Labour, some from the Lib Dems and a lot of
:13:32. > :13:37.nonvoters. But it come the election you failed to change Mr Miliband's
:13:38. > :13:41.line, I repeat, the only chance of a referendum, if you want a
:13:42. > :13:44.referendum, if that is what matters, and the polls suggest it doesn't
:13:45. > :13:48.matter to that many people, but if that is what matters, the only way
:13:49. > :13:52.you can get one is to vote Conservative. No, because you have a
:13:53. > :13:56.situation in key marginals, especially where all three parties
:13:57. > :14:00.are getting a good share, where we will see, and this depends a lot on
:14:01. > :14:07.the local elections and the European elections, there are target
:14:08. > :14:11.constituencies where UKIP has a reasonably good chance of winning a
:14:12. > :14:17.seat, and that will change the agenda. Every vote for UKIP makes a
:14:18. > :14:20.Tory government less likely. Arab voters are not Tory. Only a third of
:14:21. > :14:27.the UKIP boat comes from the Conservative party -- our voters are
:14:28. > :14:31.not Tory. -- the UKIP vote. It was mentioned earlier, about blue-collar
:14:32. > :14:34.voters. We pick up far more Labour Party and nonvoters than
:14:35. > :14:38.conservatives. On the balance of what the effect of the UKIP boat
:14:39. > :14:41.is, the Tories should worry about us, they should worry about the fact
:14:42. > :14:46.they have lost faith with their own electorate. Even if there is a
:14:47. > :14:50.minority Ed Miliband government, it means no referendum. Labour and the
:14:51. > :14:54.Liberal Democrats are now at one on the matter. The next election is in
:14:55. > :14:59.a few weeks time, the European elections. What happens in those
:15:00. > :15:02.elections will likely change the party stands and position on a
:15:03. > :15:06.referendum. The fact that Ed Miliband has said this means, for
:15:07. > :15:10.us, our big target on the 22nd of May will be the Labour voters in the
:15:11. > :15:14.Midlands and northern cities, and if we do hammer into that boat and we
:15:15. > :15:24.are able to beat Labour on the day, there's a good chance of their
:15:25. > :15:31.policy changing. One poll this morning suggests Labour is close to
:15:32. > :15:38.you at 28, the Conservatives down at 21, the Lib Dems down at eight. You
:15:39. > :15:42.are taking votes from the Conservatives and the Liberal
:15:43. > :15:49.Democrats. We are certainly taking votes from the Lib Dems but that is
:15:50. > :15:55.comparing the poll with one year ago when I don't think most people knew
:15:56. > :15:59.what the question really was. You seem to be in an impossible position
:16:00. > :16:05.because the better you do in a general election, the less chance
:16:06. > :16:10.there will be a referendum by 2020. No, look at the numbers. Only a
:16:11. > :16:16.third of our voters are Conservatives. When we have polled
:16:17. > :16:20.voters that have come to us, we asked them if there was no UKIP
:16:21. > :16:25.candidate who would you vote for, less than one in five said
:16:26. > :16:30.Conservative. Less than one in five UKIP voters would be tempted to vote
:16:31. > :16:36.Conservative under any circumstances so the arithmetic does not suggest
:16:37. > :16:39.we are the Conservative problem, it suggests we are hurting all of the
:16:40. > :16:44.parties and the reason the Tories are in trouble is because they have
:16:45. > :16:51.lost their traditional base. Why do you think Nick Clegg is debating
:16:52. > :16:59.Europe? I think they are in trouble, at 8% they could be wiped
:17:00. > :17:04.out, they could go from 12 to nothing and I think it is a chance
:17:05. > :17:10.for Nick Clegg to raise their profile. They are fringe party with
:17:11. > :17:15.respect to this contest so I see why he wants to do it. One of our big
:17:16. > :17:20.criticisms is that we have not been able to have a full debate on
:17:21. > :17:24.national television on the alternatives of the European Union
:17:25. > :17:38.so I am looking forward to it. How are you preparing? I think you can
:17:39. > :17:44.be over scripted with these things. Are you not doing mock debates? No,
:17:45. > :17:48.I am checking my facts and figures and making sure that I can show the
:17:49. > :17:54.British people that in terms of jobs, we would be far better off not
:17:55. > :17:58.being within the European Union, not being within its rule book, not
:17:59. > :18:04.suffering from some of the green taxes they are putting on the
:18:05. > :18:10.manufacturing industry. The idea that 3 million jobs are at risk, I
:18:11. > :18:16.want to show why that is nonsense. Who do you think is playing you in
:18:17. > :18:24.their mock debates? They probably went to the pub and found someone!
:18:25. > :18:27.We will see. You have promised to do whatever it takes to fund your
:18:28. > :18:34.European election campaign, how much has been given so far? Just give it
:18:35. > :18:40.a few weeks and you will see what Paul is planning to do. He has made
:18:41. > :18:49.a substantial investment in the campaign already. How much? I'm not
:18:50. > :18:53.answering that for now. We are well on our way to a properly funded
:18:54. > :19:00.campaign and our big target will be the big cities and the working vote
:19:01. > :19:04.in those communities. Your deputy chairman Neil Hamilton is another
:19:05. > :19:09.former Tory, he says so far we haven't seen the colour of his
:19:10. > :19:16.money. Exactly two weeks ago, and things have changed since then. Mr
:19:17. > :19:25.Sykes has written a cheque since then? Yes. This morning's papers
:19:26. > :19:33.saying you will be asking MEPs to contribute ?50,000 each, is that
:19:34. > :19:39.true? Over the next five years, yes. Not for the European campaign. So
:19:40. > :19:45.lack of money will not be an excuse. We will have a properly funded
:19:46. > :19:48.campaign. How we raise the kind of money needed to fund the general
:19:49. > :19:59.election afterwards is another question. What is UKIP's policy on
:20:00. > :20:04.paying family members? We don't encourage it and I didn't employ any
:20:05. > :20:10.family member for years. My wife ended up doing the job and paid for
:20:11. > :20:18.the first seven years of my job. She is paid now? Until May, then she
:20:19. > :20:25.comes off the payroll am which leaves me with a huge problem. In
:20:26. > :20:31.2004 you said, UKIP MEPs will not employ wives and there will be no
:20:32. > :20:35.exceptions. An exception was made because I became leader of the
:20:36. > :20:39.National party as well as a leader of the group in European
:20:40. > :20:43.Parliament. Things do change in life, and you can criticise me for
:20:44. > :20:49.whatever you like, but I cannot be criticised for not having a big
:20:50. > :20:58.enough workload. No, but you didn't employ your wife when you had told
:20:59. > :21:01.others not to do it your party. Nobody else in my party has a big
:21:02. > :21:06.job in Europe and the UK. We made the exception for this because of
:21:07. > :21:11.very unusual circumstances. It also looks like there was a monetary
:21:12. > :21:18.calculation. Listen to this clip from a BBC documentary in 2000. It
:21:19. > :21:24.is a good job. I worked it out because so much of what you get is
:21:25. > :21:27.after tax that if you used the secretarial allowances to pay your
:21:28. > :21:36.wife on top of the other games you can play, I reckon this job in
:21:37. > :21:38.Stirling term is over a quarter of ?1 million a year. That is what you
:21:39. > :21:45.would need to earn working for Goldman Sachs or someone like that.
:21:46. > :21:48.I agree with that. More importantly the way you really make money in the
:21:49. > :21:54.European Parliament is being their five days a week, because you sign
:21:55. > :21:59.in every day, you get 300 euros every day, and that is how people
:22:00. > :22:04.maxed out. The criticism of me is that I am not there enough so
:22:05. > :22:08.whatever good or bad I have done in the European Parliament, financial
:22:09. > :22:13.gain has not been one of the benefits. There have been
:22:14. > :22:18.allegations of you also employing a former mistress on the same European
:22:19. > :22:23.Parliamentary allowance, you deny that? I am very upset with the BBC
:22:24. > :22:28.coverage of this. The ten o'clock news run this as a story without
:22:29. > :22:32.explaining that that allegation was made using Parliamentary privilege
:22:33. > :22:40.by somebody on bail facing serious fraud charges. I thought that was
:22:41. > :22:48.pretty poor. You have a chance to do that and you deny you have employed
:22:49. > :22:53.a former mistress? Yes, but if you look at many of the things said over
:22:54. > :22:57.the last week, I think it is becoming pretty clear to voters that
:22:58. > :23:03.the establishment are becoming terrified of UKIP and they will use
:23:04. > :23:10.anything they can find to do us down in public. Is an MEP employs his
:23:11. > :23:16.wife and his former mistress, that would be resigning matter, wouldn't
:23:17. > :23:21.it? Yes, particularly if the assumption was that money was being
:23:22. > :23:27.taped for work but was not being done. Who do you think is behind
:23:28. > :23:34.these stories? It is all about negative, it is all about attacks,
:23:35. > :23:38.but I don't think it is actually going to work because so much of
:23:39. > :23:42.what has been said in the last week is nonsense. A reputable daily
:23:43. > :23:47.newspaper said I shouldn't be trusted because I had stored six
:23:48. > :23:51.times for the Conservative party, I have never even stored in a local
:23:52. > :23:56.council election. I think if you keep kicking an underdog, it will
:23:57. > :24:04.make the British people rally around us. Is it the Conservatives? Yes,
:24:05. > :24:11.make the British people rally around and the idea that all of our voters
:24:12. > :24:20.are retired colonels is simply not true. We get some voters from the
:24:21. > :24:25.Labour side as well. Would you consider standing in a Labour seat
:24:26. > :24:33.if you are so sure you are getting Labour votes? Yes, but the key for
:24:34. > :24:39.UKIP is that it has to be marginal. Just for your own future, if you
:24:40. > :24:45.fail to win a single soul -- single seat in the general election, if Ed
:24:46. > :24:51.Miliband fails to win an outright majority, will you stand down as
:24:52. > :24:57.UKIP leader? I would think within about 12 hours, yes. I will have
:24:58. > :25:02.failed, I got into politics not because I wanted a career in
:25:03. > :25:05.politics, far from it. I did it because I don't think this European
:25:06. > :25:09.entanglement is right for our country. I think a lot of people
:25:10. > :25:14.have woken up to the idea we have lost control of our borders and now
:25:15. > :25:21.is the moment for UKIP to achieve what it set out to do. Will UKIP
:25:22. > :25:26.continue without you if you stand down? Of course it will. I know that
:25:27. > :25:35.everyone says it is a one-man band but it is far from that. We have had
:25:36. > :25:38.some painful moments, getting rid of old UKIP, new UKIP is more
:25:39. > :25:45.professional, less angry and it is going places. Nigel Farage, thank
:25:46. > :25:48.you for being with us. So, what else should we be looking
:25:49. > :25:50.out for in Wednesday's Budget statement? We've compiled a Sunday
:25:51. > :25:52.Politics guide to the Chancellor's likely announcements.
:25:53. > :25:56.Eyes down everyone, it's time for a bit of budget bingo. Let's see what
:25:57. > :25:59.we will get from the man who lives at legs 11. Despite some good news
:26:00. > :26:03.on the economy, George Osborne says that this will be a Budget of hard
:26:04. > :26:06.truths with more pain ahead in order to get the public finances back
:26:07. > :26:08.under control. But many in the Conservative party, including the
:26:09. > :26:12.former chancellor Norman Lamont, want Mr Osborne to help the middle
:26:13. > :26:18.classes by doing something about the 4.4 million people who fall into the
:26:19. > :26:22.40% bracket. Around one million more people pay tax at that rate compared
:26:23. > :26:27.to 2010 because the higher tax threshold hasn't increased in line
:26:28. > :26:30.with inflation. Mr Osborne has indicated he might tackle the issue
:26:31. > :26:36.in the next Conservative manifesto, but for now he is focused on helping
:26:37. > :26:39.the low paid. It's likely we will see another increase in the amount
:26:40. > :26:45.you can earn before being taxed, perhaps up another ?500 to ?10,500.
:26:46. > :26:48.The Chancellor is going to flesh out the details of a tax break for
:26:49. > :26:51.childcare payments, and there could be cries of 'house' with the promise
:26:52. > :27:08.of more help for the building industry. The Help To Buy scheme
:27:09. > :27:12.will be extended to 2020 and there could be the go-ahead for the first
:27:13. > :27:15.Garden City in 40 years. Finally, bingo regulars could be celebrating
:27:16. > :27:17.a full house with a possible cut in bingo tax.
:27:18. > :27:19.And I've been joined in the studio by the former Conservative
:27:20. > :27:22.chancellor Norman Lamont, in Salford by the former Labour Cabinet
:27:23. > :27:25.minister Hazel Blears, and in Aberdeen by the Lib Dem deputy
:27:26. > :27:30.leader, Malcolm Bruce. Let me come to Norman Lamont first, you and
:27:31. > :27:35.another former Tory Chancellor, Nigel Lawson, have called in the
:27:36. > :27:46.fall in the threshold for the rate at which the 40p clicks in. I would
:27:47. > :27:49.have preferred an adjustment in the Budget but I agree with what you are
:27:50. > :27:56.saying, it sounds like the Chancellor will not do that. My main
:27:57. > :28:00.point is that you cannot go on forever and forever increasing the
:28:01. > :28:04.personal allowance and not increasing the 40% tax threshold
:28:05. > :28:08.because you are driving more and more people into that band. It is an
:28:09. > :28:12.expensive policy because in order to keep the number of people not paying
:28:13. > :28:19.tax constant, you have to keep adjusting it each year. When this
:28:20. > :28:26.was introduced by Nigel Lawson, it applied to one in 20 people, the 40%
:28:27. > :28:32.rate, it now applies to one in six people. By next year, there will be
:28:33. > :28:36.6 million people paying base. Why do you think your Tory colleagues seem
:28:37. > :28:51.happy to go along with the Lib Dems and target whatever money there is
:28:52. > :28:57.for tax cuts rather -- on the lower paid rather than the middle incomes?
:28:58. > :29:02.They are not helping the lowest paid. If you wanted to really help
:29:03. > :29:07.the lowest paid people you would raise the threshold for national
:29:08. > :29:12.insurance contributions, which is around ?6,000. Is it the Lib Dems
:29:13. > :29:22.stopping any rise in the 40p threshold? We are concentrating on
:29:23. > :29:30.raising the lower threshold because we believe that is the way to help
:29:31. > :29:33.those on lower incomes. Whilst they haven't benefited as much as the
:29:34. > :29:38.lower paid they have participated and I think people understand right
:29:39. > :29:42.now, if you were going to prioritise the high earners, when we are still
:29:43. > :29:46.trying to help those on lower and middle incomes who haven't enjoyed
:29:47. > :29:51.great pay increases but have got the benefit of these tax increases, that
:29:52. > :29:57.is why we would like to do it for the minimum wage level. But the
:29:58. > :30:03.poorest will not benefit at all. The poorest 16% already don't pay tax.
:30:04. > :30:08.Why don't you increase the threshold at which National Insurance starts?
:30:09. > :30:16.You only have two earned ?5,500 before you start to pay it. You've
:30:17. > :30:19.got to remember that the raising of the threshold to ?10,000 or more was
:30:20. > :30:28.something the Tories said we could not afford. Why are you continuing
:30:29. > :30:32.to do it? If you want to help the working poor, the way would be to
:30:33. > :30:38.take the lowest out of national insurance. The view we take is they
:30:39. > :30:42.are benefiting, and have benefited from, the raising of the tax
:30:43. > :30:47.threshold. You now have to earn ?10,000, we hope eventually 12,500,
:30:48. > :30:51.and that means only people on very low wages. If you opt out of
:30:52. > :30:56.national insurance, you're saying to people that you make no contribution
:30:57. > :31:00.to the welfare system, so there is a general principle that people should
:31:01. > :31:06.participate and paying, and also claim when they need something out.
:31:07. > :31:09.We thought raising the threshold was simple and effective at a time of
:31:10. > :31:16.economic austerity and the right way to deliver a helpful support to
:31:17. > :31:19.welcoming people. -- working people. With the Labour Party continue to
:31:20. > :31:23.raise the threshold, or do they think there is a case that there are
:31:24. > :31:29.too many people being dragged into the 40p tax bracket? If Norman
:31:30. > :31:32.Lamont thinks this is the right time to benefit people who are reasonably
:31:33. > :31:36.well off rather than those who are struggling to make ends meet, then
:31:37. > :31:40.genuinely, I say it respectfully, I don't think he's living in the world
:31:41. > :31:45.the rest of us are. Most working people have seen their wages
:31:46. > :31:50.effectively reduced by about ?1600 because they have been frozen, so
:31:51. > :31:55.the right thing is to help people on modest incomes. I also understand
:31:56. > :31:58.that if the 40% threshold went up, the people who would benefit the
:31:59. > :32:03.most, as ever, are the people who are really well off, not the people
:32:04. > :32:09.in the middle. The Conservatives have already reduced the 50p tax on
:32:10. > :32:12.people over ?150,000 a year, and we have to concentrate on the people
:32:13. > :32:16.going out to work, doing their best to bring their children up and have
:32:17. > :32:20.a decent life and need a bit of help. I think raising the threshold
:32:21. > :32:25.is a good thing. We would bring back the 10p tax, which we should never
:32:26. > :32:29.have abolished, and do things with regard to childcare. At the moment,
:32:30. > :32:34.childcare costs the average family as much as their mortgage, for
:32:35. > :32:37.goodness sake. We would give 25 hours free childcare for youngsters
:32:38. > :32:44.over three and four years old. That would be a massive boost the working
:32:45. > :32:48.families. We are talking about nurses, tube drivers, warrant
:32:49. > :32:52.officers in the army. There are many people who are not well off but have
:32:53. > :32:57.been squeezed in the way everybody has been squeezed and they are
:32:58. > :33:00.finding it continuing. I am stunned by Malcolm's argument where
:33:01. > :33:04.everybody should pay something so you should not take people out of
:33:05. > :33:08.national insurance, but the principle doesn't apply to income
:33:09. > :33:14.tax. You can stand that argument on its head and apply it to income tax.
:33:15. > :33:16.Most people don't see a difference between income tax and national
:33:17. > :33:21.insurance, it's the same thing to most people. It is true that it
:33:22. > :33:24.isn't really an insurance fund and there is an argument from merging
:33:25. > :33:30.both of them. But we have concentrated on a simple tax
:33:31. > :33:36.proposition. Norman is ignoring the fact the people on the 40% rate have
:33:37. > :33:40.benefited by the raising of the personal allowance. To say they have
:33:41. > :33:44.been squeezed is unfair. The calculation is that an ordinary
:33:45. > :33:49.taxpayer will be ?700 better off at the current threshold, and about
:33:50. > :33:53.?500 better off at the higher rate. It is misleading to say the better
:33:54. > :33:58.off we'll be paying more. I agree with Hazel, if you go to the 40%
:33:59. > :34:01.rate, it's the higher earners who benefit the most, and we won't do
:34:02. > :34:07.that when the economy is not where it was before the crash. How much
:34:08. > :34:14.will the lower paid be better off if you reintroduce the 10p rate?
:34:15. > :34:20.Significantly better off. I don't have the figure myself, but they'd
:34:21. > :34:23.be significantly better off and the Budget should be a mixture of
:34:24. > :34:27.measures to help people who work hard. That is why I think the
:34:28. > :34:31.childcare issue has to be addressed. ?100 a week of the people
:34:32. > :34:37.with childcare payments. It is a massive issue. We want the job is
:34:38. > :34:41.guaranteed to get young people back into work. There's been hardly any
:34:42. > :34:44.discussion about that, and we have nearly 1 million people who have
:34:45. > :34:49.been out of work for six months or more, and as a country we need to do
:34:50. > :34:55.something to help that. 350,000 full-time students, so it is a
:34:56. > :34:58.misleading figure. It is not a million including full-time
:34:59. > :35:02.students. All parties do this. It sounds to me, Malcolm Bruce, you
:35:03. > :37:58.have more in common Good morning and welcome to Sunday
:37:59. > :38:03.Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme.... The Conservatives say
:38:04. > :38:08.they're committed to more powers for the Scottish Parliament, but CAN
:38:09. > :38:14.they, WILL they deliver? Do we need more laws to protect the public from
:38:15. > :38:22.dangerous dogs? Brothers and sisters we have come out to give support,
:38:23. > :38:29.while finishing as a result of the policy of the current government.
:38:30. > :38:36.And we pay tribute to Tony Benn, who died on Friday. A party in fine
:38:37. > :38:38.fettle with a fight on its hands ahead of the referendum. That's the
:38:39. > :38:41.message the Scottish Conservatives have been pushing at their
:38:42. > :38:44.conference in Edinburgh, along with a promise from the Prime Minister
:38:45. > :38:48.about more powers for Holyrood IF Scots vote No. At the start of a
:38:49. > :38:54.very busy conference season, here's our political correspondent Glenn
:38:55. > :39:00.Campbell. You would not buy a house without getting a survey done, you
:39:01. > :39:05.would not choose a car without an MOT, those were David Cameron's
:39:06. > :39:10.words to conference, he wants voters to fully test all the arguments over
:39:11. > :39:16.independence, before decisions are made on how to vote in the
:39:17. > :39:20.referendum. What about his alternative to independence? More
:39:21. > :39:26.devolution, maybe we should put that to the test as well. Let me be
:39:27. > :39:37.clear, a vote for Noel is not a vote for no change. We are committed to
:39:38. > :39:40.making devolution work better, not because we want to give Alex Salmond
:39:41. > :39:42.a consolation prize in Scotland votes no, but because it is the
:39:43. > :39:48.right thing to do. Not everyone agrees with that. It sounds like I
:39:49. > :39:51.am in the menorah tea who does not think that further powers for
:39:52. > :39:58.Scotland and further tax-raising powers would be a good thing. She
:39:59. > :40:03.was not alone. It seems crazy to be thinking about more powers when they
:40:04. > :40:09.are not using the powers they have. They were the only two to question
:40:10. > :40:12.this. But when some of those sitting on the party commission, which is
:40:13. > :40:19.reviewing the powers, discussed their work. The difficulty is that
:40:20. > :40:26.the constitutional debate has moved on beyond feeling that the status
:40:27. > :40:31.quo is an option. In 1997, the Conservatives campaigned against the
:40:32. > :40:37.creation of a Scottish Parliament. In the 1979 devolution referendum,
:40:38. > :40:43.the former Prime Minister suggested a no vote might be a better offer.
:40:44. > :40:48.The offer never came. So why should the Tories be trusted to deliver
:40:49. > :40:53.this time? We have seen, even without a referendum, the British
:40:54. > :40:57.Government, both the previous Labour government and the current
:40:58. > :41:01.government, have been willing to get additional powers to Holyrood. David
:41:02. > :41:06.Cameron hopes to keep voters sweet by coming up with a new recipe for
:41:07. > :41:10.devolution which includes power for the Scottish Parliament to raise
:41:11. > :41:16.more of the money it spends. At least one senior Conservative once a
:41:17. > :41:20.radical shift on tax powers. Scotland has to stand on its own
:41:21. > :41:34.feet and be fiscally responsible. That will stop the drift to
:41:35. > :41:36.independence. I would like full fiscal autonomy. We should be
:41:37. > :41:38.standing on own feet and be responsible for raising and spending
:41:39. > :41:41.our own money. That is too radical for this former Cabinet minister. I
:41:42. > :41:46.think you have to look at two things, first of all, is any
:41:47. > :41:51.proposal, would it be good for Scotland, but also is it fair to the
:41:52. > :41:56.rest of the UK if we want to remain part of the UK? You need balance.
:41:57. > :42:01.Whatever model of devolution the Conservatives have in mind, the
:42:02. > :42:05.mechanics are still being worked on. At this stage they want to convince
:42:06. > :42:10.voters that the party that did not want devolution is now prepared to
:42:11. > :42:16.drive the next phase of the development if the referendum puts
:42:17. > :42:19.the brakes on independence. Ruth Davidson isn't available for
:42:20. > :42:22.interview at the moment, she's preparing her conference speech
:42:23. > :42:25.which she'll be making at 1.15pm. However, Glenn Campbell caught up
:42:26. > :42:29.with her during the conference for an interview... That is picked up on
:42:30. > :42:35.the Prime Minister's speech and what he had to say about a no vote. How
:42:36. > :42:40.do we know that a no vote did not mean any change from a Conservative
:42:41. > :42:44.point of view? I think we have gone past whether there is a point to be
:42:45. > :42:48.made for a devolution settlement and we are now on to what the case
:42:49. > :42:59.should be, what the changes should be and how we deliver it. The Prime
:43:00. > :43:01.Minister came on board over a year ago so that we could look at how we
:43:02. > :43:09.increased responsibility and you need to look at the record of the
:43:10. > :43:14.Prime Minister. Were he has been asked to deliver, he has delivered.
:43:15. > :43:19.He has stuck with the process. People have pointed out that he said
:43:20. > :43:26.a no vote can mean further devolution, but does not necessarily
:43:27. > :43:29.mean it will, does it? You are dancing on their head of a pen. The
:43:30. > :43:39.Prime Minister has made it clear, not just when he was speaking on
:43:40. > :43:47.Friday, he has done for over a year, that E is on board with the process.
:43:48. > :43:51.When he talks about greater responsibility for Holyrood to raise
:43:52. > :43:57.more of the money it spends, how much more? I will not pre-empt what
:43:58. > :44:02.Tom will bring forward, we have a lot of work going on over the course
:44:03. > :44:06.of a year, including support from people who are expert in the
:44:07. > :44:12.economy, business owners, constitutional lawyers, I will not
:44:13. > :44:17.give you a figure, because I do not know. What about Struan Stevenson,
:44:18. > :44:21.your outgoing member of the European Parliament, he reckons that Holyrood
:44:22. > :44:25.should raise all the money it spends, that all taxes raised in
:44:26. > :44:29.Scotland should be under a Holyrood control and that a certain amount
:44:30. > :44:35.should be paid to Westminster for the services it provides, is that a
:44:36. > :44:41.possibility? We have a vast array of views. Would you support that? We
:44:42. > :44:48.set up the commission to find out what would work. Some serious work
:44:49. > :44:51.has gone into that. What is interesting about the conference,
:44:52. > :44:56.our tails are up and we have had some of the best attendances in
:44:57. > :44:59.years, we had an open session on Friday and some senior people said
:45:00. > :45:05.they should not do that, I should not have this broad open and
:45:06. > :45:10.transparent discussion, in case anyone said anything. You are at the
:45:11. > :45:15.leader and you will take forward the proposals, I wonder what the
:45:16. > :45:21.parameters are, might it include a proposal, which sounds like full
:45:22. > :45:26.fiscal autonomy? We have looked at a number of areas, taxation, personal
:45:27. > :45:31.taxation and other taxes as well. They have looked at the powers that
:45:32. > :45:34.the Scottish Parliament has and how it uses them, things like the
:45:35. > :45:39.committee structure, whether it has been tested to breaking point. It
:45:40. > :45:44.also looks at how devolution can be further pushed out so it is not all
:45:45. > :45:48.about power is being held in Holyrood, but how it can be pushed
:45:49. > :46:01.out to local authorities and even beyond, to local individuals as
:46:02. > :46:04.well. It has looked at lots of different areas, what it comes back
:46:05. > :46:07.with, we will wait to see and I will make sure you are the first to know.
:46:08. > :46:10.Do you rule out full fiscal at an Army? I know what you are trying to
:46:11. > :46:18.do. I will wait and see what Tom brings back. You are putting words
:46:19. > :46:25.in my mouth. We will wait until the recommendations come back. Gordon
:46:26. > :46:30.Brown said that the 80, National Insurance should all remain at
:46:31. > :46:36.Westminster, do you agree with him? The recent ruling in the European
:46:37. > :46:47.Court shows that the 18 is not able to be devolved, it is illegal --
:46:48. > :46:52.VAT. It is not something we can consider here, because the finest
:46:53. > :46:58.legal mind say it is not allowed. What about National Insurance? If
:46:59. > :47:03.you're going to look at corporation taxes, you need to see what business
:47:04. > :47:08.wants. Three of our commissioners have come from the world of
:47:09. > :47:14.business, whether they are business owners or whether they represent
:47:15. > :47:18.business organisations, it is something they are looking at, but I
:47:19. > :47:23.cannot tell you what the result is because I do not have it. By May you
:47:24. > :47:28.will see what both Labour and the Liberal Democrats are proposing, any
:47:29. > :47:33.possibility of a three party agreement ahead of the referendum?
:47:34. > :47:37.For me, I do not think that you want to have a common position, I do not
:47:38. > :47:41.think politics stops because a referendum is happening. The way we
:47:42. > :47:46.have always done things is that individual parties see what they
:47:47. > :47:51.want to implement and they take it to the nation and in the manifesto
:47:52. > :47:55.and people vote on it. That is what democracy is about. I do not see
:47:56. > :47:58.that there will be a joint position between the three parties, but I
:47:59. > :48:02.think when all of the publications are out, it will be clear where the
:48:03. > :48:10.areas of overlap bar and people will have a clear idea of the direction
:48:11. > :48:13.of travel. Let us talk about the budget. You have been urging the
:48:14. > :48:18.Chancellor to take action on whiskey. I want him to suspend the
:48:19. > :48:25.alcohol duty escalator. In calling for that, you must have an inkling
:48:26. > :48:30.that he is likely to do that. I am coming at this from two areas, one
:48:31. > :48:37.as a Scot who will point out that I have a vested interest in that I am
:48:38. > :48:42.a whiskey drinker. It is in the blood. I am also a Conservative. At
:48:43. > :48:46.the moment, because of the way it is locked in, taxes rise above
:48:47. > :48:50.inflation on whiskey and spirits, we are hitting a point where more than
:48:51. > :49:30.80% of a bottle of whiskey that is sold in this country is going to be
:49:31. > :49:33.tax and duty and I think it is a disgrace that any product is taxed
:49:34. > :49:35.at 80%. I am making a principled argument that we suspend this, do
:49:36. > :49:38.not take it further so that we can benefit our industry. This is one of
:49:39. > :49:41.our great success stories. As a percentage of food and drink exports
:49:42. > :49:43.for the UK, it is massive. The amount of whiskey being sold here
:49:44. > :49:54.has dropped. There is a direct correlation between price and the
:49:55. > :49:58.level of duty and tax involved. If The Scottish government are calling
:49:59. > :50:05.for the same things I have. A suspension of duty for the whiskey
:50:06. > :50:09.industry. Help for oil and gas. The difference between them and us is I
:50:10. > :50:14.the same room as the chancellor whilst they are on the sidelines.
:50:15. > :50:20.That is the difference between Alex Salmond and me. They also seek to
:50:21. > :50:28.mitigate the impact of the bedroom tax. The UK government will this
:50:29. > :50:30.week announced that they will lift a cap on the amount of money the
:50:31. > :50:38.Scottish government can spend in that area. This has been an issue
:50:39. > :50:43.for some time. The Scottish government has money at its disposal
:50:44. > :50:46.to mitigate that policy. It has worked with the Labour Party to do
:50:47. > :50:57.so, that is their chance as the government was Scotland. But I think
:50:58. > :51:01.there are a lot of technical issues. As I understand it, the Treasury has
:51:02. > :51:07.suggested it is incredibly difficult to do. I am not a Treasury employee.
:51:08. > :51:18.I must take on trustworthy civil servants down south tell me. -- what
:51:19. > :51:27.the civil servants. It is incredibly difficult to do. No doubt we will
:51:28. > :51:35.return to that and some other issues in the days ahead. Thank you very
:51:36. > :51:38.much. The number of people attending
:51:39. > :51:41.hospital after a dog attacks in Scotland has almost doubled in the
:51:42. > :51:43.last 15 years. The Scottish government has been carrying out a
:51:44. > :51:46.public consultation on whether additional measures are needed to
:51:47. > :51:49.protect people. It follows a meeting between the First Minister and the
:51:50. > :51:55.parents of three child victims earlier this year. Megan Paterson
:51:56. > :52:04.reports. More than 1000 people were attacked by dogs last year. Brogan
:52:05. > :52:12.was one of them. Viciously mauled by two American Bulldogs. It left her
:52:13. > :52:19.with a broken leg and lasting scars. It has been hard. Up and down to the
:52:20. > :52:26.hospital. And her mental health, one minute she is fine, the next minute
:52:27. > :52:32.she is crying. She is up and down all the time. She cannot go out to
:52:33. > :52:39.play. And with better weather coming, she is still in the same
:52:40. > :52:47.house. She will not go out of play. This government consultation aims to
:52:48. > :52:52.stop attacks like that. It promises compulsory micro-chipping, the
:52:53. > :52:57.reintroduction of dog licenses, and most controversially, muzzling in
:52:58. > :53:04.public places. The plans have been met with a mixed reaction. We think
:53:05. > :53:11.that healthier micro-chipping is the way forward. It is a straightforward
:53:12. > :53:18.and easy thing to offer. With the other things on the agenda we do
:53:19. > :53:22.have some reservations. Regards the muzzling of dogs outside, and
:53:23. > :53:28.licensing laws. We do not think they will help the situation. Dogs must
:53:29. > :53:37.exhibit natural behaviours when out and about and muscle can find them.
:53:38. > :54:03.That may lead to more stress. -- a muzzle confines them. Willmore
:54:04. > :54:17.legislation help? Make richer thing might be useful. -- micro-chipping.
:54:18. > :54:20.But it only ever applies to a responsible dog owner anyway, a
:54:21. > :54:26.bigger push for education, encouraging people to take their
:54:27. > :54:30.dogs for training. Approaches to the problem vary but there is agreement
:54:31. > :54:38.that the responsibility for good behaviour lies with those on two
:54:39. > :54:42.legs rather than war. -- four. I'm now joined here in the studio by
:54:43. > :54:47.Paul Martin the Labour MSP and from Edinburgh we have the SNP MSP
:54:48. > :54:56.Christine Grahame. Christine Grahame, you were instrumental
:54:57. > :55:08.behind the 2010 at all -- act. What more needs to be done? We could do
:55:09. > :55:11.with more publicity for that act. It puts responsibility firmly in the
:55:12. > :55:24.hands of the owner, where it should be. There have been, in fact, in the
:55:25. > :55:27.past two years, up to 2013, a doubling of investigations where
:55:28. > :55:37.people have reported at the local authority level. My concern, and I
:55:38. > :55:44.firmly believe in voluntary micro-chipping, my concern is that
:55:45. > :55:53.compulsory micro-chipping will not necessarily lead to an end of
:55:54. > :56:00.attacks. It is the wrong dog, in their hands of the wrong owner. We
:56:01. > :56:13.need education before we even begin to think about having a dog.
:56:14. > :56:21.Paul Martin, you are keen on a list, and expanding it? Absolutely. We
:56:22. > :56:26.need to look at all measures that have to be considered. We need a
:56:27. > :56:36.radical overhaul of existing measures and to consider additional
:56:37. > :56:42.measures. We must assess ownership in the first place, some people
:56:43. > :56:47.should not own a dog. We need legislation that ensures dogs do not
:56:48. > :56:54.fall into the wrong hands in the first place. Does a list not place
:56:55. > :57:03.more of an onus on the blog itself rather than the owner? -- dog. We
:57:04. > :57:12.have an over breeding of staff as in the UK. The number of dogs in
:57:13. > :57:15.circulation, we must look responsible ownership, preventing
:57:16. > :57:21.certain individuals from being able to own one. Assessing the
:57:22. > :57:27.environment. Ensuring that Brogan and others can be given that
:57:28. > :57:30.protection that they need. There is the issue of the propensity and
:57:31. > :57:38.ability of the dog to cause destruction. Paul mentions breeders,
:57:39. > :57:47.that is a step above owners. You are keen on targeting them. There are
:57:48. > :57:51.perhaps a lot of irresponsible ones. First of all, there are huge
:57:52. > :57:58.difficulties in making a list of specific breeds to ban. The
:57:59. > :58:11.Staffordshire was known for having a good temperament, but people muddle
:58:12. > :58:19.them up with it pulls. -- pit bull. Any dog in the wrong hands can
:58:20. > :58:26.become aggressive and attack. We already have regulation for
:58:27. > :58:30.breeders, poppies, and kittens. I asked all the local authorities in
:58:31. > :58:35.Scotland if anyone ever used the regulation, they answered, no. I'm
:58:36. > :58:41.certainly not opposed to anything leading to responsible ownership. I
:58:42. > :58:43.want to see how this legislation, proposed by the Scottish
:58:44. > :58:52.government, would actually improve the situation. It will not solve
:58:53. > :58:57.everything. It requires, right at the start, education of proposed
:58:58. > :59:08.owners. You make that point also, Paul Martin. What is your opinion on
:59:09. > :59:14.muzzling? I cannot meet with the family of Brogan and say that should
:59:15. > :59:21.be ruled out. My overriding concern is protecting communities. We must
:59:22. > :59:26.look at the experience of the legislation delivered. But I will
:59:27. > :59:33.not look the family Brogan in the eye and say, I, as a politician,
:59:34. > :59:37.will rule out muzzling. We should interrogate the opportunities
:59:38. > :59:40.available to us and not rule it out. Thank you both very much.
:59:41. > :59:44.You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC. The time is
:59:45. > :59:49.coming up to midday, let's cross to Graham Stuart for the latest news in
:59:50. > :59:52.Reporting Scotland. Good afternoon. The Scottish
:59:53. > :59:55.Conservative leader Ruth Davidson is due to tell her party conference
:59:56. > :00:07.that she would scrap free prescriptions in order to pay for an
:00:08. > :00:10.extra 1,000 midwives and nurses. In her keynote speech in Edinburgh
:00:11. > :00:16.later, she's expected to say that the Scots would pay ?6.85.
:00:17. > :00:19.The Scotch Whisky Association is calling on the Chancellor to scrap
:00:20. > :00:23.planned increases in alcohol duty in his budget next week. At the moment,
:00:24. > :00:27.79 % of the price of an average bottle of Scotch Whisky is made up
:00:28. > :00:31.of duty and VAT. If the alcohol duty escalator were implemented again,
:00:32. > :00:34.this would go up to 81%. The SWA, together with the Wine Spirit
:00:35. > :00:38.Trade Association and the Taxpayers' Alliance, is asking for this to be
:00:39. > :00:42.frozen. A man has been arrested following
:00:43. > :00:44.the death of a man in the Easterhouse area of Glasgow.
:00:45. > :00:47.29-year-old Ryan McNeil was discovered at a house in
:00:48. > :00:53.Conisborough Road yesterday morning. A 27-year-old man is being held in
:00:54. > :00:59.connection with the incident. And now the weather.
:01:00. > :01:09.The words that spring to mind about the weather today, mild and breezy.
:01:10. > :01:17.MacLeod will possibly thicken up and produce some rain and drizzle. --
:01:18. > :01:23.the cloud. Across eastern Scotland, a different story, good spells of
:01:24. > :01:28.sunshine coming through. A fresh to strong westerly wind. Highs of 16
:01:29. > :01:34.Celsius possibly in the north-east. That's all for now, our next update
:01:35. > :01:37.is at 6:05pm tonight. Now, back to Andrew.
:01:38. > :01:42.Today tributes continue to appear for Tony Benn, who died on Friday at
:01:43. > :01:45.the age of 88. A saint to the left, a bogeyman to the right, whatever
:01:46. > :01:48.you think of him it's undisputed he had an extraordinary career. Joining
:01:49. > :01:59.me now, a friend, a former colleague, the former Labour MP
:02:00. > :02:05.George Galloway, who's in London. Thank you for coming to speak to us.
:02:06. > :02:14.Was it the fight to renounce his title in the real making of the man?
:02:15. > :02:22.It was one of the constitutional changes he pioneered. Nobody had
:02:23. > :02:26.ever done it or imagine that it could be done. It took him three
:02:27. > :02:34.years of courtroom appearances and he changed the British constitution.
:02:35. > :02:40.Which he later did in 1975, when with other allies, Michael foot, but
:02:41. > :02:51.mainly him, he forced the very first referendum in British politics. We
:02:52. > :02:57.are rather used to referenda now, but then they were constitutional
:02:58. > :03:06.novelty. He has been cold a whizz kid, as Minister for technology, but
:03:07. > :03:10.what is interesting is that he saw it impact on working people and was
:03:11. > :03:16.almost trying to mitigate the effects, to save jobs. He was very
:03:17. > :03:22.interested in the fate of the Clyde shipbuilders. He intervened a very
:03:23. > :03:29.decisively as the Minister for industry in the work in. He was for
:03:30. > :03:32.ever in and out of the yard with Jimmy Reid and the other great
:03:33. > :03:41.leaders on the River Clyde at that time. He defended motorcycle plants
:03:42. > :03:47.in the Midlands. He had a whizz kid figure for technology in the 1960s,
:03:48. > :03:53.by the 1970s, when he saw the impact on working class communities, he was
:03:54. > :03:58.a decisive advocate, the bosses demanded he would be sacked by Mr
:03:59. > :04:03.Wilson from that job, he duly was. He went on to energy where he
:04:04. > :04:08.advocated public ownership of North Sea oil, just coming on stream. If
:04:09. > :04:14.we had followed that advice, instead of in bankrupt, this country would
:04:15. > :04:22.be booming. Following the electoral defeats in the 70s, he criticised
:04:23. > :04:27.the past performance of the government. He would move to the
:04:28. > :04:34.left. Would he not be more pragmatic to move the right? To get in with
:04:35. > :04:41.the electorate? He was perhaps far more left-wing than working people.
:04:42. > :04:49.If you analyse them, as now, the individual causes which he espoused,
:04:50. > :04:57.the majority of issues he was onside with the public. Railways, post,
:04:58. > :05:03.gas, electricity. He was against corruption and the undemocratic
:05:04. > :05:08.nature of the European Union, is, overwhelmingly, are the majority of
:05:09. > :05:13.the British people. He was famously against war. Marching and leading
:05:14. > :05:20.marches. The majority of British public opinion was with him on that
:05:21. > :05:24.also. This is one of the revisions of history that is being made after
:05:25. > :05:29.his death, that he was charming and eloquent, but his views were crazy.
:05:30. > :05:40.But actually they were views are shared by the majority. You mention
:05:41. > :05:46.the war. Then the obituary in the Guardian, Brian said while not
:05:47. > :05:54.making it clear, that included the war against Hitler. That was the --
:05:55. > :05:58.an interesting point. It is unfair, because Tony Benn fought in the war
:05:59. > :06:05.against Hitler and lost his brother in the war against Hitler. He was
:06:06. > :06:11.not a pacifist and he regarded the Second World War as our finest hour.
:06:12. > :06:18.We saved the world for a time, alone, against fascist barbarism. He
:06:19. > :06:21.was not a tree hugging peacenik in all circumstances, he was against
:06:22. > :06:26.unjust wars, wars which had alternatives and in that, the vast
:06:27. > :06:32.majority of people in Britain, then and now, regard that as entirely
:06:33. > :06:40.correct. All political careers ended failure, that is a phrase, Labour
:06:41. > :06:45.was not electoral -- because successful in elections, do you not
:06:46. > :06:50.think he's should have spent time fighting that? The leaders that led
:06:51. > :06:58.us to defeat were not Tony Benn, Michael foot led us to defeat, Neil
:06:59. > :07:03.Kinnock as well -- Michael Foot. If we had had Tony Benn as leader, if
:07:04. > :07:20.he had not been cheated of the deputy leadership by less than 1% of
:07:21. > :07:26.the vote, it would have been better. It is a re-writing of history. If we
:07:27. > :07:31.had had Tony Benn who was the best advocate we ever had of socialist
:07:32. > :07:36.politics, we would have won one of those three elections. You first met
:07:37. > :07:44.Tony Benn 40 years ago, what is your fondest memory? His kindliness. He
:07:45. > :07:52.was one of the most generous and on rubble and dignified people I have
:07:53. > :07:55.ever met. -- honourable. Thank you. Let's have a look at the stories
:07:56. > :08:07.making the news today and the events coming up in the week ahead. Joining
:08:08. > :08:12.me to talk about the events and what is coming up and stop Joining me to
:08:13. > :08:15.talk about the week's events and what's coming up from Labour in
:08:16. > :08:19.Perth is writer and broadcaster David Torrance and in the studio is
:08:20. > :08:22.Natalie McGarry who stood as an SNP candidate in the Cowdenbeath by
:08:23. > :08:29.election and is a Twitter personality... First of all to you
:08:30. > :08:33.David at the Conservative conference, it seems to have been a
:08:34. > :08:39.fairly upbeat conference, Ruth Davidson seems upbeat. Yes, of
:08:40. > :08:46.course we will be hearing from her in about an hour's time as she
:08:47. > :08:56.rounds off and untypically logged conference. It has been much busier
:08:57. > :09:00.than previous years. Well over 1000 delegates. It has been broadly a
:09:01. > :09:07.successful conference, the most important thing was the line in the
:09:08. > :09:14.speech about Ruth Davison wanting more powers after a no vote. That
:09:15. > :09:19.has been reinforced on subsequent days. It is very much the message
:09:20. > :09:25.the party is trying to get across, this is not an opportunistic pursuit
:09:26. > :09:29.of more powers to try and defeat the yes campaign in September, it is in
:09:30. > :09:37.keeping with Conservative ideology and principles. Power is for a
:09:38. > :09:47.purpose, to borrow a phrase from the Scottish Labour Party. What do you
:09:48. > :09:53.make of that? I was a bit prize to. The commission was meant to deliver
:09:54. > :10:00.the first draft of the powers -- surprised. I think that not having
:10:01. > :10:03.the powers or the proposals announced before conference does not
:10:04. > :10:07.give the Conservative Party much of a chance to have a look over them
:10:08. > :10:13.and there is not going to be the same level of scrutiny within the
:10:14. > :10:21.ranks. I think some of the thought within the party is that these would
:10:22. > :10:25.be published in the next you weeks -- few weeks. I saw Ruth Davidson
:10:26. > :10:30.earlier and she seemed to suggest that the commission would produce
:10:31. > :10:36.the results in May. You are shaking your head. I am not sure it was ever
:10:37. > :10:41.said that anything was emerging in the next few weeks, it has been the
:10:42. > :10:48.line for quite a while that it would be published in May. Towards the end
:10:49. > :10:52.of May, there are European elections on the 22nd and the official
:10:53. > :10:58.referendum starts on the 29th and we will see the proposals in between
:10:59. > :11:02.those states. The ball was in the firmly pro-union parties court,
:11:03. > :11:09.Labour are announcing the results of their condition on Tuesday, how is
:11:10. > :11:14.the yes campaign gauging this? It is dependent on what powers come
:11:15. > :11:19.forward. The narrative seems to suggest that the Labour Party will
:11:20. > :11:23.give a certain degree of power on welfare. Looking at opinion polls,
:11:24. > :11:27.there is appetite for a lot more powers than seemed to be emerging
:11:28. > :11:34.from the Labour Party proposals. I wait to see what they will be but
:11:35. > :11:37.they do not seem to go far enough. I saw the Tories talking about raising
:11:38. > :11:43.all the taxes, the Labour Party proposal seems to be about 40% of
:11:44. > :11:57.taxes moving up. Whether or not that will have an impact on the narrative
:11:58. > :12:00.going forward to the referendum, I do not know, I wait to see what they
:12:01. > :12:02.are and I will not prejudge and say there will be sufficient. I want
:12:03. > :12:06.independence. We will wait and see. Let us look to the past. We were
:12:07. > :12:11.talking about Tony Benn hearing the tributes from George Galloway, what
:12:12. > :12:18.did you make of that? George Galloway is obviously of a section
:12:19. > :12:24.of the Labour Party as was, he is not there any more, who would hold
:12:25. > :12:29.Tony Benn in high regard. Tony Benn was without doubt a substantial
:12:30. > :12:36.figure, a fixture of my childhood and well beyond that. His diaries
:12:37. > :12:42.are enormously entertaining as a minister in the 1960s, he was an
:12:43. > :12:47.impressive figure with a firm legacy, but he was also a divisive
:12:48. > :12:53.figure. If you go back to the early 1980s in particular, he was as much
:12:54. > :12:58.resented by his own side as his political enemies on the right. The
:12:59. > :13:03.important thing to remember about him is although he is seen as a
:13:04. > :13:08.left-winger and a man of principle, he came to left-wing politics in the
:13:09. > :13:15.Labour relatively late, I think it Denis Healey who said this. Until
:13:16. > :13:22.the 1970s, he was on the right of the party. What did you make of Tony
:13:23. > :13:29.Benn's legacy? In the last few weeks, we have lost a lot of people
:13:30. > :13:35.from a socialist left perspective. Tony Benn was quite a progressive.
:13:36. > :13:41.Some people forget that actually he pioneered being in the BBC, the
:13:42. > :13:45.party political broadcast, of appealing to amass constituency.
:13:46. > :13:49.Thank you very much. That brings us to the end of Sunday Politics
:13:50. > :13:53.Scotland but I'm back in 45 minutes over on BBC2 for live coverage of
:13:54. > :13:57.the leader's speech at the Scottish Conservative conference. But for
:13:58. > :14:02.now, from all us on the programme, thanks for your company, bye.