:00:35. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:46. > :00:48.the investment our energy market badly needs? We will be asking the
:00:49. > :00:51.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:52. > :00:54.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We will be quizzing
:00:55. > :00:59.Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael.
:01:00. > :01:05.And whatever happened to the BNP? They could be heading for electoral
:01:06. > :01:07.oblivion. We will be asking why. Coming up on Sunday Politics
:01:08. > :01:11.Scotland. The pro-Union parties have ruled out
:01:12. > :01:14.a deal on currency, but does a newspaper report signal a change in
:01:15. > :01:24.the policy? We will be speaking to Alex Salmond live.
:01:25. > :01:28.And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the
:01:29. > :01:33.business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.
:01:34. > :01:37.But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest
:01:38. > :01:44.and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,
:01:45. > :01:51.Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:52. > :01:53.Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been
:01:54. > :01:57.unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the
:01:58. > :02:02.rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister
:02:03. > :02:07.spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the
:02:08. > :02:11.Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence
:02:12. > :02:15.campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when
:02:16. > :02:20.the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were
:02:21. > :02:23.going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that
:02:24. > :02:25.campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in
:02:26. > :02:36.Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.
:02:37. > :02:42.Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no
:02:43. > :02:50.campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have
:02:51. > :02:55.got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have
:02:56. > :03:00.got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we
:03:01. > :03:05.are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the
:03:06. > :03:09.possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think
:03:10. > :03:12.that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it
:03:13. > :03:16.against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a
:03:17. > :03:20.detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England,
:03:21. > :03:24.Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would
:03:25. > :03:28.not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the
:03:29. > :03:32.permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is
:03:33. > :03:36.such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with
:03:37. > :03:42.it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the
:03:43. > :03:46.force of argument is very much against those of us who want to
:03:47. > :03:50.remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the
:03:51. > :03:54.day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland, a
:03:55. > :03:58.deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is
:03:59. > :04:04.nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 20
:04:05. > :04:07.years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in
:04:08. > :04:11.Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the
:04:12. > :04:18.UK. That is perfectly plausible, isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is
:04:19. > :04:21.simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.
:04:22. > :04:25.What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials
:04:26. > :04:29.saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of
:04:30. > :04:36.England Wales, Northern Ireland, any more than it is in the interests of
:04:37. > :04:43.people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not
:04:44. > :04:50.change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?
:04:51. > :04:54.I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe
:04:55. > :04:58.Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish
:04:59. > :05:02.Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not
:05:03. > :05:06.sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from
:05:07. > :05:11.Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have
:05:12. > :05:15.not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the
:05:16. > :05:27.questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too
:05:28. > :05:29.negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found
:05:30. > :05:33.you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,
:05:34. > :05:37.isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the
:05:38. > :05:43.people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes,
:05:44. > :05:48.there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing
:05:49. > :05:55.a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which
:05:56. > :05:59.actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come
:06:00. > :06:02.September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to
:06:03. > :06:07.say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of
:06:08. > :06:13.the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll
:06:14. > :06:18.said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the
:06:19. > :06:23.don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you
:06:24. > :06:27.yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act
:06:28. > :06:33.together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,
:06:34. > :06:37.to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists
:06:38. > :06:41.could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the
:06:42. > :06:45.United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the
:06:46. > :06:49.polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,
:06:50. > :07:05.they think this will not happen. It can happen. I have got to tell
:07:06. > :07:07.everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an
:07:08. > :07:10.enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their
:07:11. > :07:12.disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in
:07:13. > :07:17.football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what
:07:18. > :07:21.is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in
:07:22. > :07:28.place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.
:07:29. > :07:35.Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know
:07:36. > :07:41.what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to
:07:42. > :07:45.blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there
:07:46. > :07:52.will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.
:07:53. > :07:56.But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the
:07:57. > :08:00.deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls
:08:01. > :08:03.which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite
:08:04. > :08:08.rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down
:08:09. > :08:12.the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year, not
:08:13. > :08:16.just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy
:08:17. > :08:21.negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving
:08:22. > :08:24.places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen
:08:25. > :08:29.then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts
:08:30. > :08:32.about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising
:08:33. > :08:36.that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow
:08:37. > :08:43.Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary
:08:44. > :08:47.union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in
:08:48. > :08:50.a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear
:08:51. > :08:56.submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,
:08:57. > :09:00.probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think
:09:01. > :09:04.whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If
:09:05. > :09:09.the Scots vote for independence, of course a deal will be done about the
:09:10. > :09:12.currency because it is not in London's interests to have a
:09:13. > :09:16.rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not
:09:17. > :09:27.done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is
:09:28. > :09:29.different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on
:09:30. > :09:33.the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without
:09:34. > :09:38.any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if
:09:39. > :09:43.the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except
:09:44. > :09:49.it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go
:09:50. > :09:52.down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the
:09:53. > :09:56.financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would
:09:57. > :09:59.rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary
:10:00. > :10:03.of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much
:10:04. > :10:06.money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major
:10:07. > :10:11.parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is
:10:12. > :10:14.bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think
:10:15. > :10:19.that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex
:10:20. > :10:23.Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big
:10:24. > :10:30.establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my
:10:31. > :10:37.football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no
:10:38. > :10:42.vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left
:10:43. > :10:46.which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex
:10:47. > :10:53.Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding
:10:54. > :10:56.from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being
:10:57. > :11:00.incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not
:11:01. > :11:03.want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of
:11:04. > :11:06.million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a
:11:07. > :11:10.bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's
:11:11. > :11:17.very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.
:11:18. > :11:26.High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six
:11:27. > :11:33.energy companies account for 95% of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem
:11:34. > :11:38.said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price
:11:39. > :11:40.rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets
:11:41. > :11:45.authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken
:11:46. > :11:49.up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica
:11:50. > :11:53.made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if
:11:54. > :11:55.you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare
:11:56. > :12:00.margin, that is what is left in the margin, that is what is left in the
:12:01. > :12:05.generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's
:12:06. > :12:10.night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016,
:12:11. > :12:15.according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to
:12:16. > :12:21.2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of
:12:22. > :12:24.candles. Now where is that light switch?
:12:25. > :12:32.Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light
:12:33. > :12:37.switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating
:12:38. > :12:44.capacity could possibly reach 2% next winter or the winter after. We
:12:45. > :12:48.will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy
:12:49. > :12:53.investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal
:12:54. > :12:59.with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up
:13:00. > :13:04.massively. Investment has been 8 billion a year. Last year was a
:13:05. > :13:10.record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing
:13:11. > :13:13.it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment
:13:14. > :13:18.massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights
:13:19. > :13:20.on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing
:13:21. > :13:26.anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we
:13:27. > :13:32.have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We
:13:33. > :13:35.have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will
:13:36. > :13:39.come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that
:13:40. > :13:48.we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have
:13:49. > :13:54.one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having
:13:55. > :13:59.major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The
:14:00. > :14:03.figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.
:14:04. > :14:07.Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from
:14:08. > :14:12.interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are
:14:13. > :14:19.able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a
:14:20. > :14:25.mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on
:14:26. > :14:31.that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to
:14:32. > :14:37.under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our
:14:38. > :14:42.plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it
:14:43. > :14:48.would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply
:14:49. > :14:55.who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our
:14:56. > :14:59.plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to
:15:00. > :15:02.come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of
:15:03. > :15:05.power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.
:15:06. > :15:10.There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we
:15:11. > :15:14.are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.
:15:15. > :15:20.We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction
:15:21. > :15:34.for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned
:15:35. > :15:36.lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries
:15:37. > :15:39.so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I
:15:40. > :15:49.am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000
:15:50. > :15:55.megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost
:15:56. > :16:00.22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power
:16:01. > :16:03.supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those
:16:04. > :16:06.figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power
:16:07. > :16:11.plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,
:16:12. > :16:15.nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment, but
:16:16. > :16:21.we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to
:16:22. > :16:25.date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare
:16:26. > :16:29.capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour
:16:30. > :16:33.Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing
:16:34. > :16:37.significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also
:16:38. > :16:41.remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at
:16:42. > :16:48.15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average
:16:49. > :16:53.margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since
:16:54. > :16:57.privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high
:16:58. > :17:03.margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have
:17:04. > :17:08.historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so we make
:17:09. > :17:12.sure the lights stay on, we have a short-term policy I have described
:17:13. > :17:15.to you, and medium-term policy and a long-term policy. The long-term
:17:16. > :17:38.policy comes huge investment between nuclear and optional,
:17:39. > :17:43.policy comes huge investment between on. Ofgem, Independent, says the
:17:44. > :17:48.chance of blackouts by 2016 has increased fourfold under your watch.
:17:49. > :17:57.What they say, if you read the report, if we did nothing, they
:17:58. > :18:01.would be problems. But we have been working with Ofgem. We have been
:18:02. > :18:06.working with National Grid, and we have agreed that there will be a
:18:07. > :18:09.reserve capacity which can come on if we get to the peak for the Best
:18:10. > :18:17.not just on the supply side but demand and into connectors. You talk
:18:18. > :18:20.about industry having to move to off-peak times. We say, they are
:18:21. > :18:25.prepared to that you paid for it, and it makes commercial sense for
:18:26. > :18:29.them, it's a sensible thing for the Wii will pay them to move to
:18:30. > :18:31.off-peak. You have huge diesel parks for the you talk as if that
:18:32. > :18:35.something new but it's been around for a long time for the 200 these
:18:36. > :18:40.contracts out there. We want to expand that. You have hundreds of
:18:41. > :18:46.diesel generators to click into, haven't you? There's a whole range
:18:47. > :18:54.of generators. Diesel generation, dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed
:18:55. > :19:02.gas which can come. If you look at the increase of the independent
:19:03. > :19:07.generators, many companies, a range of power companies who are building
:19:08. > :19:12.a new power station and want to build new ones. This is a healthy
:19:13. > :19:16.situation. You say you made over 100 billion new investment between now
:19:17. > :19:20.and the end of the decade to restore capacity and meet renewable
:19:21. > :19:23.targets. Now you have referred the Big Six to the competition
:19:24. > :19:28.commission, how much of that to expect to come from them? We will
:19:29. > :19:32.see what the market delivers. We have always expected independent
:19:33. > :19:39.generators to do a lot more than is happening in the past. How much from
:19:40. > :19:44.the Big Six? It's not for me to say it's going to be best from that
:19:45. > :19:49.company. The real interest is we have huge amounts of companies
:19:50. > :19:51.wanting to invest. If you look at independent analysis, they say
:19:52. > :19:55.Britain is one of the best places to invest in energy in the world. We
:19:56. > :19:59.are the worldly do in offshore wind, one of the best for
:20:00. > :20:03.renewables, one of the only countries getting nuclear power
:20:04. > :20:07.stations. Rather than the bleaker picture you're painting, the reverse
:20:08. > :20:14.is the case. We are seeing an investment renaissance. You say
:20:15. > :20:19.that. Let me give you some facts. Under this Government, only one gas
:20:20. > :20:22.plant has been under construction, only one started under your watch
:20:23. > :20:27.for the others were done under Labour. You have none in the
:20:28. > :20:29.pipeline. The Big Six has pulled back from further investment
:20:30. > :20:32.including new offshore wind investment and none of what you're
:20:33. > :20:38.talking about will come before 2020 anyway. That's simply not true. The
:20:39. > :20:43.balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the
:20:44. > :20:46.mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new
:20:47. > :20:52.power, will happen way before 2020, so that's not true. But doesn't
:20:53. > :20:56.answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of
:20:57. > :21:02.this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said
:21:03. > :21:06.permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to
:21:07. > :21:10.do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's
:21:11. > :21:14.very sensible. Medium-term plan, auctioning for new power stations.
:21:15. > :21:17.That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent
:21:18. > :21:24.plant being built, and the long-term plan, to stimulator long-term
:21:25. > :21:28.investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the
:21:29. > :21:32.end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your
:21:33. > :21:37.painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how
:21:38. > :21:41.you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive
:21:42. > :21:48.sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a
:21:49. > :21:51.deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012
:21:52. > :22:08.prices. All of that puts up our bills. First
:22:09. > :22:14.of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has
:22:15. > :22:18.been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas
:22:19. > :22:22.prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future
:22:23. > :22:26.-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,
:22:27. > :22:30.many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come
:22:31. > :22:33.online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You
:22:34. > :22:39.have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from
:22:40. > :22:47.this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been
:22:48. > :22:51.going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not
:22:52. > :22:55.recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but
:22:56. > :22:58.more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but
:22:59. > :23:05.it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In
:23:06. > :23:07.those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep
:23:08. > :23:12.price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If
:23:13. > :23:18.gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear
:23:19. > :23:23.and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that
:23:24. > :23:27.power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on
:23:28. > :23:31.this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of
:23:32. > :23:37.offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%
:23:38. > :23:42.in the next few years. That figure is 155, and for the deeper stuff,
:23:43. > :23:46.it's going to be ?165. That's the first year of a limit control
:23:47. > :23:53.framework which had it coming down. If you talk to many companies,
:23:54. > :24:03.Siemens had invested with their partners, ?310 million with two new
:24:04. > :24:08.factories. They are talking about lower prices because what they are
:24:09. > :24:12.saying to me is that, rather than the 30% cost reductions I talked
:24:13. > :24:17.about, I was wrong, they are targeting 40%. You said prices would
:24:18. > :24:22.come down 30% in two years for that that was 2012 and they have gone
:24:23. > :24:26.higher. I absolutely did not say that. Your exact quote was 30% in
:24:27. > :24:32.the next few years. Your exact few years. You said two years, I sell a
:24:33. > :24:37.few years. I haven't changed a single moment that you said two
:24:38. > :24:40.years, I said a few years. That's what we are projecting. They will
:24:41. > :24:44.come down. You have to invest in technology. Let me give you this
:24:45. > :24:48.example. When people invest in mobile phones to start off with,
:24:49. > :24:57.they were expensive, and they were clunky and the costs were going down
:24:58. > :25:03.for the one final question. You put the Big Six into investigation
:25:04. > :25:05.because they made a 5% return on investment and you're done a deal
:25:06. > :25:12.with EDF, nuclear power, which will guarantee them a return of 10% - 15%
:25:13. > :25:16.every year for 30 years. Doesn't that underline the shambles of your
:25:17. > :25:20.energy policy? You have mixed up two separate things. The 5% Ofgem are
:25:21. > :25:25.talking about is on the supply retail side. The percentage you
:25:26. > :25:31.quoted for EDF is in the wholesale side of two different markets. It's
:25:32. > :25:34.the same return. It's not. You are comparing apples and pears,
:25:35. > :25:38.dangerous thing to do. You have to do have a high return but in the
:25:39. > :25:41.dangerous thing to do. You have to retail market, with a 5% stake,
:25:42. > :25:49.there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we
:25:50. > :25:54.haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever
:25:55. > :25:58.happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the
:25:59. > :26:02.verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going
:26:03. > :26:04.nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press
:26:05. > :26:07.officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains
:26:08. > :26:10.some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had
:26:11. > :26:14.a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats
:26:15. > :26:17.in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest
:26:18. > :26:20.party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite
:26:21. > :26:32.concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote
:26:33. > :26:35.increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as
:26:36. > :26:38.anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and
:26:39. > :26:43.forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is
:26:44. > :26:45.that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,
:26:46. > :26:56.electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.
:26:57. > :26:58.For a number of years they were performing better than the UK
:26:59. > :27:02.Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.
:27:03. > :27:05.The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other
:27:06. > :27:10.groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't
:27:11. > :27:13.go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party
:27:14. > :27:19.was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have
:27:20. > :27:22.known that at the outset. In 2006 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won
:27:23. > :27:25.12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour
:27:26. > :27:34.council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing
:27:35. > :27:37.concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different
:27:38. > :27:40.nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over
:27:41. > :27:47.everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I
:27:48. > :27:53.would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here.
:27:54. > :27:57.When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a
:27:58. > :28:01.second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find
:28:02. > :28:05.non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even
:28:06. > :28:10.though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white
:28:11. > :28:14.working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent,
:28:15. > :28:21.everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On
:28:22. > :28:26.behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,
:28:27. > :28:30.that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local
:28:31. > :28:38.Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we
:28:39. > :28:41.could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the
:28:42. > :28:44.council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.
:28:45. > :28:48.But what beat the BNP here in 2010 was a mobilisation of the Labour
:28:49. > :28:52.vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the
:28:53. > :29:00.same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years
:29:01. > :29:04.ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing
:29:05. > :29:08.around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and
:29:09. > :29:12.stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now
:29:13. > :29:17.it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.
:29:18. > :29:21.If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not
:29:22. > :29:25.in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.
:29:26. > :29:30.I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say
:29:31. > :29:34.in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist
:29:35. > :29:39.but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of
:29:40. > :29:42.UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:43. > :29:51.party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is
:29:52. > :29:53.closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose
:29:54. > :30:10.amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were
:30:11. > :30:14.thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his
:30:15. > :30:17.appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP,
:30:18. > :30:27.something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.
:30:28. > :30:33.This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John
:30:34. > :30:37.Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He
:30:38. > :30:40.went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some
:30:41. > :30:44.voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here
:30:45. > :30:51.has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins
:30:52. > :30:56.me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you
:30:57. > :31:02.had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on
:31:03. > :31:08.the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is
:31:09. > :31:12.very negative as I would expect. The party has faced a few problems. The
:31:13. > :31:19.main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country
:31:20. > :31:24.faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European
:31:25. > :31:34.elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were
:31:35. > :31:39.denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take
:31:40. > :31:44.place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer
:31:45. > :31:51.movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL
:31:52. > :31:58.is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not
:31:59. > :32:02.a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took
:32:03. > :32:08.a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this
:32:09. > :32:13.stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless
:32:14. > :32:16.promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on
:32:17. > :32:22.this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.
:32:23. > :32:27.Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will
:32:28. > :32:32.probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across
:32:33. > :32:38.Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I
:32:39. > :32:56.reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and
:32:57. > :33:01.Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are
:33:02. > :33:05.on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I
:33:06. > :33:10.was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party
:33:11. > :33:14.did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and
:33:15. > :33:17.Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was
:33:18. > :33:23.true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader
:33:24. > :33:25.who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy.
:33:26. > :33:45.No, it is not. It is over. In 2009, they said a party with a
:33:46. > :33:50.platform like yours would never win, and we did. Win or lose seats, the
:33:51. > :33:56.Lib Dems would be annihilated in the next election, that will be the big
:33:57. > :34:01.news. You deny that you are far right, but people used to say that
:34:02. > :34:11.the BNP were neo-Nazi, and then Nick Griffin appears with golden dawn
:34:12. > :34:17.from Greece, they are Nazis, and Nick Griffin appears with them. As a
:34:18. > :34:26.pan-European organisation, we have to appear. You have to appear with
:34:27. > :34:32.the Golden Dawn? I am happy to appear with everyone. The BBC has a
:34:33. > :34:44.turbo reputation now, but I am happy to be here. Why can't Mr Griffin
:34:45. > :34:50.come onto the BBC, common to TV and do an interview with us? You will to
:34:51. > :34:58.an interview. He flew out to Damascus and prevented a war, he was
:34:59. > :35:01.instrumental in sending a letter to the UK Parliament where we said we
:35:02. > :35:04.would not interfere with Syria. The BBC never cover that, so do not make
:35:05. > :35:07.out that we are not ordinarily political party that you cover like
:35:08. > :35:14.everybody else. It is completely different. All of the signs are that
:35:15. > :35:19.membership of the polls, performance and elections, the problems with
:35:20. > :35:24.leadership, it is that you are now going the way of the National
:35:25. > :35:28.front, heading for oblivion. That may be the case, if all of the
:35:29. > :35:31.problems that we hadn't highlighted, and how we got that
:35:32. > :35:38.you'd vote so many years ago, six years ago, in 2009, if they weren't
:35:39. > :35:47.around. They are only going to get worse. These things will only get
:35:48. > :35:49.worse. We're looking at a prototype, Islamic Republic that will be set up
:35:50. > :35:52.in this country that will lead you to problems. And only the BNP are
:35:53. > :35:55.prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing
:35:56. > :36:02.this interview with you before the weekend, isn't it a sign of how
:36:03. > :36:05.irrelevant you now are, that's not a single person has turned up at new
:36:06. > :36:09.broadcasting house this morning to protest appearance, as there used to
:36:10. > :36:15.be, hundreds which turn up and be said the BNP was coming on. That is
:36:16. > :36:18.the left for you, they put the clocks on this morning and they
:36:19. > :36:26.couldn't be bothered to get out of bed. Maybe they just could not be
:36:27. > :36:31.bothered, they're not interested. Now, time for the programme in
:36:32. > :36:35.Scotland. Good morning and welcome to Sunday
:36:36. > :36:38.Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme... An unnamed UK minister
:36:39. > :36:43.tells a newspaper there COULD be a deal on sharing a currency. We'll
:36:44. > :36:46.speak to the First Minister live. At their conference, the leader of
:36:47. > :36:49.the Scottish Liberal Democrats tells delegates the focus should be on
:36:50. > :36:51.making the UK work. And a year after the Coalition
:36:52. > :36:56.government introduced major reforms to Housing benefit, we'll look at
:36:57. > :37:00.how it's working in Scotland. Good morning. You'll remember a few
:37:01. > :37:03.weeks ago the Chancellor came up to Edinburgh to formally rule out a
:37:04. > :37:07.currency union, supported in a rare show of unity by his Labour and Lib
:37:08. > :37:10.Dem counterparts. The Scottish government said it was a bluff and
:37:11. > :37:13.maintained their stance of no Plan B. But a report in yesterday's
:37:14. > :37:17.Guardian quoted an unnamed UK government minister as saying there
:37:18. > :37:20.COULD be a deal to share sterling in the event of a vote for independence
:37:21. > :37:23.in September's referendum. We'll be speaking to the leader of
:37:24. > :37:26.the Scottish Liberal Democrats in a few moments, but all three
:37:27. > :37:30.pro-Unionist parties have said the report is wrong. So just how
:37:31. > :37:36.credible is it? Joining me now from Aberdeen is the First Minister, Alex
:37:37. > :37:40.Salmond. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. Do you accept that
:37:41. > :37:47.the statement from the three men who would be Chancellor after the 2015
:37:48. > :37:51.election is a political one? Of course it is a political one, to be
:37:52. > :37:57.stated at the time when they made at first that it was bluff and bluster
:37:58. > :37:59.and ambling, and it looks like we have been proven to be correct. You
:38:00. > :38:04.cannot say incidentally that the report was wrong, unless they are
:38:05. > :38:07.saying that Nicolas Walter is not irresponsible journalist at the
:38:08. > :38:14.Guardian and that it it's not responsible newspaper. The minister
:38:15. > :38:18.doesn't oppose government policy? They say that a minister in the
:38:19. > :38:22.government has it as a campaign tactic, and negotiating position. If
:38:23. > :38:30.a minister in this government says this and believes this, why on earth
:38:31. > :38:35.should the Scottish people be irritated by a combination of George
:38:36. > :38:39.Osborne and Ed Balls? You may well say that this is not in the interest
:38:40. > :38:45.of Scotland in the UK, but your opponents might disagree. You make a
:38:46. > :38:50.political decision, these three men make the same decision, why would
:38:51. > :38:53.they not go through with this? I thought if he asked me whether to
:38:54. > :38:56.political decision, was at a political tactic? That is what the
:38:57. > :39:03.unnamed minister has said to the Guardian, it is what the unnamed
:39:04. > :39:05.minister has said to the Guardian, to the campaign tactic. But of
:39:06. > :39:07.course, the obvious point is, if that is what the people in their
:39:08. > :39:10.organisation in their own ministerial team believe, then why
:39:11. > :39:14.on earth should the Scottish people believe any different? We know that
:39:15. > :39:21.opposition to a currency union was a new-found thing. Alistair Darling
:39:22. > :39:24.described the currency as logical and desirable. Only last December,
:39:25. > :39:30.Alistair Carmichael said it would not be sensible to rule out a
:39:31. > :39:33.currency zone, so it was a new-found tactic, dreamt up by Alistair
:39:34. > :39:37.Darling and Andrew Dunlop, persuading the Treasury to do this.
:39:38. > :39:41.Now it has been seen through that the bluff has been called and the no
:39:42. > :39:51.campaign will have to take the political consequences, which will
:39:52. > :39:54.be severe. It was said that the currency union would repeat the
:39:55. > :39:58.mistakes of the euro crisis, and a currency union without a fiscal year
:39:59. > :40:07.Min. That is the problem with what you're proposing, isn't it? No, we
:40:08. > :40:09.put forward in the fiscal commission report last year, the measures that
:40:10. > :40:13.it would make and how a currency zone would work. Mark Carney did not
:40:14. > :40:25.rule out a currency zone, you stated provisions he would have to make a
:40:26. > :40:27.currency zone work. You cannot argue that UK parties are against a
:40:28. > :40:29.currency zone in principle, when Jackson Carlo, the debited leader of
:40:30. > :40:34.the Conservatives in Scotland that he would go to the barricades to
:40:35. > :40:41.obtain one. So incoherent at the heart of the neo-con pain, this has
:40:42. > :40:44.now been exposed as a campaign tactic, something to intimidate the
:40:45. > :41:16.Scots. London before you can set them in
:41:17. > :41:20.Scotland under your proposals? There has to be responsible budgeting, but
:41:21. > :41:24.you need that under any circumstance. You cannot say that
:41:25. > :41:27.currency zones do not work. There was one for 70 years between Belgium
:41:28. > :41:36.and Luxembourg that worked extremely well. That led eventually to a
:41:37. > :41:40.political union. No, Belgium and Luxembourg are still independent
:41:41. > :41:44.countries within the European Union and of course, throughout that
:41:45. > :41:48.period of currency union, there was different taxation rates, different
:41:49. > :41:52.personal taxation rates, different corporate taxation rates. It was a
:41:53. > :41:57.working a sample of a currency zone within the heart of Europe, so it is
:41:58. > :42:01.not an argument in principle, it is an argument as the fiscal commission
:42:02. > :42:13.working group of foreword, and it is to the best advantage of Scotland
:42:14. > :42:16.and the rest of the UK. Otters been exposed from the other side by the
:42:17. > :42:19.unnamed minister is that this is a campaign tactic which was wanted by
:42:20. > :42:26.Alistair Darling and Andrew Dunlop. -- what has been exposed. It was
:42:27. > :42:29.designed to intimidate the Scots. Do you accept the rest of the code for
:42:30. > :42:36.the Minister said that the UK wants to keep Trident nuclear weapon that
:42:37. > :42:43.Faslane and the Scottish Government once a currency zone, can you see
:42:44. > :42:48.the outline of a deal? No, not on the question of nuclear weapons. I
:42:49. > :42:52.will explain to you why that is not correct to suggest that they are
:42:53. > :42:57.half right. The opposition to nuclear weapons is not a negotiating
:42:58. > :43:02.position, or a campaign tactic, it was alkaline and in the White Paper,
:43:03. > :43:05.it is one of the reasons why we believe in Scottish independence.
:43:06. > :43:10.What will be negotiated in terms of a artist currency zone will be all
:43:11. > :43:15.about monetary aspects, because the situation could forward via George
:43:16. > :43:19.Osborne and Ed Balls, if you claim the assets of the UK, like the Bank
:43:20. > :43:24.of England and the BBC, then you get stuck with all of the liabilities
:43:25. > :43:27.like the huge national debt and the hundred and ?25 billion which
:43:28. > :43:32.otherwise, as we put forward in the White Paper, would be happy to take
:43:33. > :43:36.responsibility for. That is what was being negotiated about a currency
:43:37. > :43:43.zone. Or opposition to Trident and nuclear weapons, that is fundamental
:43:44. > :43:46.to this case. Willie Rennie says that if there is a Nova Road, your
:43:47. > :43:53.party should be involved in shaping the extra powers that the Unionist
:43:54. > :44:03.powers have said for Holly Ruud? Would you get involved in that. --
:44:04. > :44:07.if there is a Nova. -- no vote. Let me say clearly to Willie Rennie, I
:44:08. > :44:12.want full involvement of the Liberal Democrats in the negotiating of the
:44:13. > :44:17.best settlement of Scotland and the rest of the UK after Scotland votes
:44:18. > :44:23.yes on the 18th of September. And if it goes the other way, the SNP would
:44:24. > :44:27.give full co-operation? We are in visiting a yes vote, we will always
:44:28. > :44:31.battle for the best for Scotland in all circumstances, but think we have
:44:32. > :44:35.the wind at our back at the present moment. Tuesday is the anniversary
:44:36. > :44:42.of the poll tax, and Andrew Dunlop, the same person who was mentioned in
:44:43. > :44:44.the Guardian story as being the architect of this merry wheeze about
:44:45. > :44:48.ruling out a currency zone, he was one of the architects of the poll
:44:49. > :44:54.tax, so not content with wrecking the Prime Minister ship of Margaret
:44:55. > :44:59.Thatcher, Andrew Dunlop seems to be instrumental in hauling the Unionist
:45:00. > :45:04.case below the water line, perhaps he's by secret agents at the heart
:45:05. > :45:08.of Whitehall! Well this issue of a currency union
:45:09. > :45:11.has been one of the talking points amongst Scottish Liberal Democrats
:45:12. > :45:13.at their party conference in Aberdeen. With senior coalition
:45:14. > :45:16.ministers Danny Alexander and Alastair Carmichael both continuing
:45:17. > :45:19.to insist it isn't going to happen. Meanwhile the party's leader Willie
:45:20. > :45:22.Rennie has been trying to bring some 'sunshine' to the granite city and
:45:23. > :45:25.the debate on independence. Responding to comments that the no
:45:26. > :45:28.campaign is being too negative he's being outlining the benefits, as he
:45:29. > :45:32.sees them, of remaining in the union. I'll speak to Willie Rennie
:45:33. > :45:32.shortly but first from Aberdeen our political correspondent, Glenn
:45:33. > :45:56.Campbell, reports. The Liberal Democrats Scottish
:45:57. > :46:02.leader has adopted a sort of Morecambe and wise approach to
:46:03. > :46:05.politics. It is what he called his sunshine strategy. It is to
:46:06. > :46:11.emphasise the progress that we are making as a party, the fact that we
:46:12. > :46:15.have an expansion of 30,000 more jobs in Scotland, the taxes are
:46:16. > :46:19.down, pensions are up. That is the sunshine strategy. Emphasising what
:46:20. > :46:23.Lib Dems are doing in government but also the fact the UK is good for
:46:24. > :46:28.Scotland in Scotland is good for the UK. They oppose independence, but
:46:29. > :46:40.their federal party leader concedes that the UK is not perfect, and is
:46:41. > :46:42.in need of reform. Let me be unequivocal, rejecting independence
:46:43. > :46:45.will not be choosing the status quo. It would be the start of a new
:46:46. > :46:51.chapter. A different era. It must, I believe, be a giant leapt towards
:46:52. > :47:00.are long-term, liberal definition, home rule. Nick Clegg called three
:47:01. > :47:04.United front with Labour and the Conservatives in the referendum
:47:05. > :47:08.campaign. But this was the weekend when one unnamed coalition minister
:47:09. > :47:12.broke ranks, telling the Guardian that of course, there would be a
:47:13. > :47:16.currency union after a yes vote, despite the fact that the UK
:47:17. > :47:27.government has explicitly ruled that out. In Lib Dem ranks, one
:47:28. > :47:30.independent supporting former party treasurer thinks that the currency
:47:31. > :47:33.position is a bluff. The pound is not England, it is Britain. We are
:47:34. > :47:36.part of Britain, we own as much of the pound as they do, they need to
:47:37. > :47:41.negotiate with us. But Danny Alexander and sister will be no
:47:42. > :47:45.pound sharing deal. It is nonsense, myself, the Shadow Chancellor, the
:47:46. > :47:50.Chancellor, we have all been clear on clear advice of the Treasury that
:47:51. > :47:55.a currency union would not work for an independent Scotland or the rest
:47:56. > :47:58.of the UK, so it will not happen. Having Lib Dems like Danny Alexander
:47:59. > :48:04.in Cabinet gives the party a high profile, but power comes at a price.
:48:05. > :48:17.Some coalition policies are a hard sell in Scotland, and the party has
:48:18. > :48:21.lost seats in local government and at Holyrood. It has lost some of the
:48:22. > :48:24.bedroom tax is at Westminster, but worst of all, because of the U-turn
:48:25. > :48:28.on tuition fees, people now do not trust the Liberal Democrats. We're
:48:29. > :48:34.sometimes perceived as being liars, and to mutter what we say, it is not
:48:35. > :48:38.going to convince them. We have got to prove by accidents. Willie Rennie
:48:39. > :48:45.once housing benefit changes to be scrapped. It is not working as
:48:46. > :48:54.intended, and I think it should just go. Big smiles! The Lib Dems are
:48:55. > :48:59.awesome! Nick Clegg has hinted on giving Holyrood more power to offset
:49:00. > :49:06.the income tax may be coming sooner. Willie Rennie may raise a
:49:07. > :49:14.glass to that, but only avoiding election setbacks would call for a
:49:15. > :49:17.knees up in a brewery. Joining us now from the conference centre is
:49:18. > :49:24.leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Willie Rennie.
:49:25. > :49:33.Let me ask you firstly about the currency union story. This is a
:49:34. > :49:37.bluff? I was disappointed with the interview with the first Minister.
:49:38. > :49:45.He is treating this as some sort of game. It is not a game. He is not
:49:46. > :49:53.understanding the advice that was given by the Treasury. The position
:49:54. > :49:56.has not changed and instead of taking the opportunity to set out
:49:57. > :50:07.what the alternative would be, he carries on as usual, bluffing away
:50:08. > :50:10.in his own way. But they have said all the time that this was a bluff
:50:11. > :50:19.and behind the scenes, he may be getting proved right. The United
:50:20. > :50:22.Kingdom Government has not changed. The stance of the Labour Party or
:50:23. > :50:31.the Liberal Democrats has not changed. This was a mistake. A
:50:32. > :50:41.minister out of the room who did not understand the policy. It is not a
:50:42. > :50:45.change of policy. What Alex and his needs to set out as the situation
:50:46. > :50:56.which will occur if we do not have a shared currency. Alex Salmond seems
:50:57. > :51:03.certain that the yes campaign can win. Do you think that is possible?
:51:04. > :51:07.Of course it is possible. I hope and I am campaigning with every inch of
:51:08. > :51:13.my body that the latter is not the case. But no one should take this
:51:14. > :51:18.for granted. A campaign which is very much alive. It is alive in part
:51:19. > :51:25.a cause of the amount of money the yes campaign have been flowing into
:51:26. > :51:29.this. They have the fortune in the war chest. We need to make sure we
:51:30. > :51:34.compete every step of the way to match that. We need to put across
:51:35. > :51:39.our messages, the messages I have been putting across this weekend
:51:40. > :51:46.about the benefits of the currency union, and energy union. All of the
:51:47. > :51:51.great things in the United Kingdom at great news for Scotland. Is this
:51:52. > :51:59.new-found positivity on your part and what seems a trend in the
:52:00. > :52:02.opinion polls towards a yes fort, down to the fact that the no
:52:03. > :52:12.campaign has been too negative until now? We should not exaggerate. I do
:52:13. > :52:17.not think there is a real trend. We have to get the balance right. I am
:52:18. > :52:23.not afraid to ask difficult questions. I am not afraid to do
:52:24. > :52:30.that on the big subjects, the likes of the currency union, the single
:52:31. > :52:35.market and energy union. We need to get the balance right. I have always
:52:36. > :52:42.been an upbeat type of person who will always accentuate the
:52:43. > :52:47.positives. The fact we are able to drive forward that, renewable energy
:52:48. > :52:52.ambitions in Scotland with in the United Kingdom. I want to tackle
:52:53. > :52:57.climate change and make the best use of the assets we have here. I think
:52:58. > :53:07.the United Kingdom is the best platform to do that. That message
:53:08. > :53:16.has not reached some in your party. A couple of high-profile Liberal
:53:17. > :53:19.Democrats have backed the yes campaign. Why can you not convince
:53:20. > :53:25.senior members of your party to back the Better Together campaign? The
:53:26. > :53:30.whole point of party is that we are called liberals, people with the
:53:31. > :53:36.party different views. But I think you could count on the fingers of
:53:37. > :53:41.one hand the number of people in the party who are in favour of
:53:42. > :53:45.independence. Looking at your electoral fortunes as you go into
:53:46. > :53:49.the European elections campaign, and much of the policies of the
:53:50. > :53:56.coalition government parting the party in Scotland? Let us look at
:53:57. > :54:03.the facts. Taxes are down, pensions are dropped, there are more jobs.
:54:04. > :54:10.But looking at things that don't, you'll fought in Cowdenbeath, you
:54:11. > :54:15.fought in Dunfermline. I want to tell you about the good things.
:54:16. > :54:20.Taxes are down, pensions are up and that is more provision for childcare
:54:21. > :54:24.and more jobs. That could not be happening without the Liberal
:54:25. > :54:29.Democrats. That could not be happening if we did not take part in
:54:30. > :54:36.government in the early days to put forward our views. I know things are
:54:37. > :54:46.coming for the party. Things are getting better. And I know what is
:54:47. > :54:51.happening on the ground. I was quoting your figures from recent
:54:52. > :54:56.elections. You said in a conversation with Brian Taylor that
:54:57. > :55:02.the bedroom tax should be scrapped. Has Nick Clegg given any indication
:55:03. > :55:07.that that will happen? There will be an announcement in the coming
:55:08. > :55:13.weeks, which will meet the bequest from John Swinney to raise the, so
:55:14. > :55:20.it is effectively quashed in Scotland. Should it be scrapped in
:55:21. > :55:26.Scotland? I understand the principle of it. We need people to make the
:55:27. > :55:32.best use of their assets, but it has not what. Thank you very much for
:55:33. > :55:36.joining us. The reforms were controversial from
:55:37. > :55:38.the start and as we have just heard, this week Scottish Liberal Democrat
:55:39. > :55:41.leader Willie Rennie said Westminster welfare changes aimed at
:55:42. > :55:44.cutting under-occupancy in social housing should be scrapped. His
:55:45. > :55:46.comments come as a BBC investigation suggests the changes have failed to
:55:47. > :55:49.tackle overcrowding leaving thousands of tenants in rent
:55:50. > :55:52.arrears. A year on since the policies introduction, Megan
:55:53. > :56:06.Paterson looks back at the impact it has had here. Over the last year,
:56:07. > :56:09.the people in this house have been interested in the people living in
:56:10. > :56:16.our house is. In that reducing the welfare bill, it reduced benefits
:56:17. > :56:23.for people in social housing deemed to have a spear room. I was worried
:56:24. > :56:27.about being if it did. It was very stressful for me and for my two
:56:28. > :56:34.girls. This was my grandparents house. Fiona is one of the 72,000
:56:35. > :56:41.people affected by changes to housing benefit. She is considered
:56:42. > :56:46.to have a spear room so has had her benefits reduced and is now in rent
:56:47. > :56:56.arrears. She is fighting her case with the help of shelter Scotland. I
:56:57. > :57:01.cannot really afford it. I am on benefits and I am struggling. I wake
:57:02. > :57:09.up in the middle of the night, I cannot sleep. It is horrible, it is
:57:10. > :57:16.not nice. Almost 80% of Scotland's councils responded to the survey. If
:57:17. > :57:20.over 15,000, a hundred households in rent arrears for the first time
:57:21. > :57:30.after the introduction of the benefit change, just over 25%. In
:57:31. > :57:36.Edinburgh, 58% find themselves in arrears in Dundee, 53%. Temporary
:57:37. > :57:40.support is available in the form of discretionary housing payment. But
:57:41. > :57:44.some councils have not spent their allocation, mainly because many
:57:45. > :57:52.people who are entitled to have not claimed. Like manager council has
:57:53. > :57:57.the highest spend in the United Kingdom in this regard. There were
:57:58. > :58:06.always challenges before even the bedroom tax was in Broughton.
:58:07. > :58:14.Unfortunately, with the difficulties of the bedroom tax, it has caused
:58:15. > :58:21.the speak in the amount of disruption and I am pleased we have
:58:22. > :58:26.been able to keep that to a minimum. ?36 million in total was set aside
:58:27. > :58:31.for the scheme, housing charities say the rugby a shortfall of ?14
:58:32. > :58:36.million between what it cost to implement and it returns. The fewer
:58:37. > :58:43.the shortfall will have to be met by local authorities. It means that the
:58:44. > :58:50.business plan for individual housing authorities will become less viable
:58:51. > :58:58.as time goes on. All in all, it is a bad policy. It is a policy being
:58:59. > :59:06.closely monitored by the independent housing monitoring Scotland. It
:59:07. > :59:13.certainly has great health risks to social landlords. It could be as
:59:14. > :59:20.negative for them as it could be for tenants. Less than 2% of those
:59:21. > :59:25.affected by the changes have moved to smaller properties. Maybe was one
:59:26. > :59:33.of them. She moved to a one-bedroom flat in the same street in
:59:34. > :59:37.Motherwell. It made certain changes. There where some personal things, I
:59:38. > :59:45.had to throw away a lot of memories in that house. I was a bit tearful
:59:46. > :59:51.when I moved them, but I am getting there now. She still has rent
:59:52. > :59:54.arrears, but the Department for work and person say there is enough
:59:55. > :59:58.financial support available for people like her and the policy will
:59:59. > :00:02.lead to fairness and social housing known and in the future.
:00:03. > :00:05.Joining me now in the studio is Housing Minister Margaret Burgess
:00:06. > :00:13.and in Aberdeen, Alex Johnstone from the Scottish Conservative. This
:00:14. > :00:20.policy has not worked yet? I think it has the potential to work. There
:00:21. > :00:24.are a number of organisations in Scotland who have been working very
:00:25. > :00:30.hard to make sure it does not work. It was designed to ease
:00:31. > :00:39.overcrowding, but only 2% of people have done so and moved. We could
:00:40. > :00:44.probably get about 20% of people in every given year moving to smaller
:00:45. > :00:49.accommodation. The fact that it's only 2% in Scotland shows you the
:00:50. > :00:57.amount of opposition there has been to it. Have you been deliberately
:00:58. > :01:05.steaming this policy? Of course we have not. Housing is devolved in
:01:06. > :01:12.Scotland. It is for social landlords in Scotland to determine, not for
:01:13. > :01:16.the United Kingdom Government. Alex Johnson said 20% of people could
:01:17. > :01:22.potentially moving to smaller homes, the house is available. Could it
:01:23. > :01:35.work in practice? No, the houses are not available. There is not the
:01:36. > :01:40.house is the and the policy is not working and is unfair. We have that
:01:41. > :01:47.the report that few owner does not want to move from her house because
:01:48. > :01:53.it was her parents home, for grandparents home. What do you say
:01:54. > :02:03.to someone in her position? What I see as we have a government in
:02:04. > :02:07.Scotland which is working at changes to social housing. We have tens of
:02:08. > :02:12.thousands of families waiting for social housing. The policy is
:02:13. > :02:21.designed to make the best use of housing stock available. How do we
:02:22. > :02:27.make sure that we do match people to the house is available? Since the
:02:28. > :02:31.Scottish comment came to power, we are building more social housing
:02:32. > :02:38.than previous administrations ever built. There is 32% more social
:02:39. > :02:42.housing being built since the Scottish National party came into
:02:43. > :02:49.power. What we are not prepared to do is force people to move from
:02:50. > :02:54.their houses as the do not want to. If someone wants to move, we would
:02:55. > :02:59.help and support and encourage that, but if they do not want to move,
:03:00. > :03:03.they should not have to do it. The policy is not working. People cannot
:03:04. > :03:11.afford to do it in the house is not there. Lifting the cap on
:03:12. > :03:15.discretionary payments was difficult to do and she says that is why the
:03:16. > :03:21.Scottish gunmen had asked Westminster to do that. Are you
:03:22. > :03:29.asking for the impossible? No, we are asking for something simple. It
:03:30. > :03:35.allows Westminster to make the cuts they need to do, but allows the
:03:36. > :03:42.Scottish gunmen to assess people affected by the bedroom tax. It is a
:03:43. > :03:48.simple change in legislation. Even Nick Clegg has said it is a sensible
:03:49. > :03:52.thing to do. All we need to do is get the United Kingdom Government to
:03:53. > :03:58.let us get on with it. I should not this not be instigated? I think it
:03:59. > :04:04.was a mistake for them to ask for the to be lifted. I think it is
:04:05. > :04:08.possible to lift the cap and ensure that has currently for consideration
:04:09. > :04:13.in front of the Chancellor. In the last day of January this year, less
:04:14. > :04:18.than two thirds of discretionary housing payments money had been
:04:19. > :04:24.allocated with only two months left. I would suggest the Scottish gunmen
:04:25. > :04:29.should have listened about how additional money could be used in
:04:30. > :04:36.other ways. As a consequence, there could have been underpinning schemes
:04:37. > :04:47.similar to the one in East Renfrewshire, for they are using
:04:48. > :04:54.money to improve the housing. Just a brief response? This is the only way
:04:55. > :04:58.that we can get money into rent account on a regular basis, and that
:04:59. > :05:04.is why it is so important to get the cap lifted, and the point that Alec
:05:05. > :05:06.Johnson makes about not all local authorities using it, that is the
:05:07. > :05:10.whole point that we are arguing, that it is not distributed
:05:11. > :05:13.properly, so the areas where it is needed most, they are not getting
:05:14. > :05:23.enough, and the areas were perhaps they do not needed, they are getting
:05:24. > :05:25.too much. Thank you both very much. You're watching Sunday Politics
:05:26. > :05:28.Scotland. Let's cross to the news now from Reporting Scotland with
:05:29. > :05:32.Andrew Kerr. Good afternoon. The First Minister
:05:33. > :05:35.is predicting the Better Together campaign is going to "get worse"
:05:36. > :05:39.following the leak on the currency union, but the UK government say no
:05:40. > :05:42.deal will be done. Alex Salmond was speaking after yesterday's report in
:05:43. > :05:45.which an unnamed minister said a Westminster opposition to Scotland
:05:46. > :05:48.keeping the pound would fall away in the event of a yes vote. But cabinet
:05:49. > :05:57.ministers say whatever happens, a currency union will not take place.
:05:58. > :06:01.If the Scottish people were to vote for independence, there would be a
:06:02. > :06:06.protracted negotiation about many issues and the future of the base at
:06:07. > :06:10.Faslane would be one of those issues. What I'm saying to you about
:06:11. > :06:14.a currency union is that is not just another item that could be
:06:15. > :06:21.negotiated, because there are clear, economic reasons why it would not
:06:22. > :06:24.work. A man has died after falling on Ben
:06:25. > :06:27.Nevis in the Highlands. The 57-year-old from Glasgow was
:06:28. > :06:30.climbing with a friend on the north face of the mountain in Lochaber
:06:31. > :06:32.when the accident happened yesterday morning.
:06:33. > :06:39.Now a look at the weather forecast, here's Christopher.
:06:40. > :06:45.A disappointing afternoon, dry and cloudy. Some brighter skies in the
:06:46. > :06:51.south-west and later in the north-west and quite warm when the
:06:52. > :06:56.sun comes out. 15, 16 degrees. Generally, about ten, 12 degrees and
:06:57. > :07:01.down the eastern side, the easterly breeze continues to be quite chilly.
:07:02. > :07:04.Plenty of sunshine for a Shetland, but cooler with nine degrees. Cloudy
:07:05. > :07:09.with further fog in the east, that is your forecast.
:07:10. > :07:13.That's it. I'll now hand you back to Gary. It's time to have a look at
:07:14. > :07:18.what's in the Sunday papers and what is coming up in the week ahead.
:07:19. > :07:23.Joining me this week - Political Editor of the Scottish Daily Mail,
:07:24. > :07:27.Alan Roden, who's in Aberdeen. And here in the studio is Kevin McKenna,
:07:28. > :07:31.who's a columnist with the Observer. Good afternoon to both of you, Alan,
:07:32. > :07:35.you are in Aberdeen, Europe and watching the Willie Rennie speech,
:07:36. > :07:42.how would you characterise the spring conference? I thought his
:07:43. > :07:47.speech was quite positive. It has been an incredibly tough couple of
:07:48. > :07:50.days for the no campaign. It's dominated proceedings here in
:07:51. > :08:06.Aberdeen. A lot of work is being done by the Lib Dems and other
:08:07. > :08:18.parties to resurrect Better Together. At the moment, in England
:08:19. > :08:24.and Wales, his party is trailing UKIP. He did give a good upbeat
:08:25. > :08:28.speech. Perversely, if Scotland were to vote yes, I think it would
:08:29. > :08:33.benefit not only his party, but the other parties of the union in
:08:34. > :08:46.Scotland. There is urgent in fortunes? -- a research and is. He
:08:47. > :08:50.recognised that the Lib Dems had suffered for their association,
:08:51. > :08:54.especially in Scotland, with the Conservative Party. So, it stands to
:08:55. > :08:58.reason that if Scotland were to vote yes, the Lib Dems may be able to
:08:59. > :09:03.reclaim quite a lot of their support they have lost up here. On the issue
:09:04. > :09:07.of the referendum campaign, we have this unnamed minister at Westminster
:09:08. > :09:13.saying that yes, that could be a deal on the currency union, clearly
:09:14. > :09:15.as we heard earlier from Alex Salmond on the ass campaign. That
:09:16. > :09:19.was buoyed by this. Can we look back on this and see it as a significant
:09:20. > :09:28.potential turning point in the campaign? -- on the yes campaign. I
:09:29. > :09:34.am confident that the no campaign will win this referendum. It has
:09:35. > :09:37.been the most damaging week for this no campaign. The race is getting
:09:38. > :09:40.closer, senior ministers and politicians coming out to criticise
:09:41. > :09:46.Alistair Darling and others and crisis talks at Better Together for
:09:47. > :09:49.the need for a new positive advertising campaign. There are
:09:50. > :09:59.still an element of complacency in Better Together believes to be
:10:00. > :10:05.stamped out, because this fight has got very, very real. Do you think it
:10:06. > :10:08.is a turning point? It is a significant point in the campaign,
:10:09. > :10:13.this journalist immediately knew the significance of what he was being
:10:14. > :10:18.told. He was on the programme earlier, and also on the panel was
:10:19. > :10:21.the financial Times journalist who said that what this minister was
:10:22. > :10:27.saying made sense. You get the impression that people in England,
:10:28. > :10:30.if Scotland were to vote yes, and the rest of the UK, they would
:10:31. > :10:37.immediately go into business mode, it just makes sense for the rest of
:10:38. > :10:40.the UK to share currency. Could it be harmful for some people in the
:10:41. > :10:45.rest of the UK at Scotland has at that moment said, yes, we do not
:10:46. > :10:49.want to have part of what you are offering? They are giving the hard
:10:50. > :10:52.sell at the moment and they hope that they will never be asked to
:10:53. > :10:57.deliver or to decide. They are hoping that there will be a vote for
:10:58. > :11:01.no, and then that this will be forgotten about and as such, it will
:11:02. > :11:14.not been a significant point in the campaign, however, Alex Salmond is
:11:15. > :11:17.certainly on to something when he says that there is a lot of bluster
:11:18. > :11:19.about this. It's an fee does not make sense. Are we expecting a
:11:20. > :11:22.Chancellor of the rest of the UK to say to tens of thousands of English
:11:23. > :11:24.businesses who are already being squeezed by the big banks to lend
:11:25. > :11:29.and increase overdrafts, then it will actually cost them more money
:11:30. > :11:32.to deal with Scotland and Scottish business and Scotland after all is
:11:33. > :11:42.England's second biggest trading partner. On the direction of travel
:11:43. > :11:50.for Better Together, you talk about a meeting this week that could be
:11:51. > :11:57.characterised as a crisis meeting or otherwise, Better Together tell us
:11:58. > :12:01.that they will continue to make many positive reasons for staying in the
:12:02. > :12:04.UK, but this seems to be a shift, and Willie Rennie is exemplifying
:12:05. > :12:12.this in the message they are trying to get across. Yes, he described it
:12:13. > :12:16.as his sunshine speech. The negativity of the no campaign has
:12:17. > :12:22.worked to some extent. There are these warnings about currency, and
:12:23. > :12:28.the argument is heading to the ship workers, and there are swathes of
:12:29. > :12:35.people in housing schemes in Glasgow and Edinburgh that are being
:12:36. > :12:43.attracted to the yes cause, and they need to save this great nation of
:12:44. > :12:54.ours. What do you make of this sunshine campaign, is there a
:12:55. > :13:01.mileage in it for Better Together? Many of these people working on this
:13:02. > :13:07.campaign are Labour activist, they come from working class areas which
:13:08. > :13:11.are home to families that are living below the breadline and they know
:13:12. > :13:14.that this would be a hard sell for people like them. I heard Alistair
:13:15. > :13:22.Carmichael's speech yesterday, the day before, and he was talking about
:13:23. > :13:24.what Britain has done for us in the context of what the Romans did for
:13:25. > :13:32.us in the Monty Python sketch. That is all very well. A lot of these
:13:33. > :13:36.issues about currency, about taxation, that is way beyond, way
:13:37. > :13:41.above the radar for ordinary, poor, low-income families of which there
:13:42. > :13:45.are many in Scotland. The recent trends have shown that they are more
:13:46. > :13:52.likely to vote yes. Thank you both very much indeed.
:13:53. > :13:55.That's all from the us this week. I'll be back at the usual time next
:13:56. > :14:00.week. Until then, goodbye.