:00:35. > :00:39.To Aternoon, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.As MPs head off for their Easter break, campaigning for the European
:00:43. > :00:50.elections in six weeks' time gets underway.
:00:51. > :00:53.In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the issues at stake on May
:00:54. > :01:03.22nd with senior party figures from the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal
:01:04. > :01:10.Democrats and UKIP. Glasgow 2014 has announced that it
:01:11. > :01:18.will not demolish the Red Road flats live at the opening ceremony.
:01:19. > :01:21.And our vote for Scotland, not the SNP. Alex Salmond's last conference
:01:22. > :01:33.speech before the referendum. Here in the studio we have Syed
:01:34. > :01:36.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard
:01:37. > :01:39.Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader
:01:40. > :01:49.of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of
:01:50. > :01:53.communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us
:01:54. > :02:02.their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they
:02:03. > :02:05.drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed.
:02:06. > :02:10.Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is
:02:11. > :02:14.about. The vote to choose members of the
:02:15. > :02:18.European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same
:02:19. > :02:21.day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:22. > :02:25.sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:26. > :02:29.sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional
:02:30. > :02:37.representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:38. > :02:41.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:42. > :02:42.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:43. > :02:48.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners reject nearly all EU legislation and
:02:49. > :02:52.the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price
:02:53. > :03:01.caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food
:03:02. > :03:06.regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.
:03:07. > :03:10.Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our
:03:11. > :03:15.relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have
:03:16. > :03:19.a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out
:03:20. > :03:22.referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot.
:03:23. > :03:28.Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative
:03:29. > :03:32.MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,
:03:33. > :03:40.really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.
:03:41. > :03:44.Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe,
:03:45. > :03:47.vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,
:03:48. > :03:51.fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing
:03:52. > :03:55.patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian
:03:56. > :03:59.roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting
:04:00. > :04:05.with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal
:04:06. > :04:11.Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah
:04:12. > :04:16.Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are
:04:17. > :04:21.about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.
:04:22. > :04:25.Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to
:04:26. > :04:30.help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that
:04:31. > :04:33.bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe,
:04:34. > :04:38.but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's
:04:39. > :04:44.prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put
:04:45. > :04:52.British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick
:04:53. > :04:55.O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an
:04:56. > :04:58.era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project
:04:59. > :05:03.designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old
:05:04. > :05:11.hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people
:05:12. > :05:15.European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed
:05:16. > :05:22.out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.
:05:23. > :05:24.That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.
:05:25. > :05:30.Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the
:05:31. > :05:34.selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock
:05:35. > :05:38.the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We
:05:39. > :05:45.can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain
:05:46. > :05:48.wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power
:05:49. > :05:55.and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain
:05:56. > :05:59.leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.
:06:00. > :06:02.We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an
:06:03. > :06:09.example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.
:06:10. > :06:13.Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip
:06:14. > :06:18.to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think
:06:19. > :06:23.of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European
:06:24. > :06:26.Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David
:06:27. > :06:32.Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,
:06:33. > :06:39.he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside
:06:40. > :06:42.him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I
:06:43. > :06:50.gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our
:06:51. > :06:53.supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to
:06:54. > :06:59.change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a
:07:00. > :07:02.referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no
:07:03. > :07:07.idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer
:07:08. > :07:14.that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United
:07:15. > :07:17.States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the
:07:18. > :07:23.referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no
:07:24. > :07:26.confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read
:07:27. > :07:28.negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at
:07:29. > :07:37.the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of
:07:38. > :07:42.demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to
:07:43. > :07:45.leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not
:07:46. > :07:53.changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to
:07:54. > :07:59.perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a
:08:00. > :08:05.say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was
:08:06. > :08:10.deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.
:08:11. > :08:14.Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why
:08:15. > :08:20.can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First
:08:21. > :08:27.of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no
:08:28. > :08:30.apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of
:08:31. > :08:34.Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and
:08:35. > :08:38.business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they
:08:39. > :08:41.probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees
:08:42. > :08:45.in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is
:08:46. > :08:50.necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron
:08:51. > :08:57.says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity
:08:58. > :09:02.rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out
:09:03. > :09:07.vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there
:09:08. > :09:12.was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of
:09:13. > :09:16.reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent
:09:17. > :09:21.about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them
:09:22. > :09:23.forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic
:09:24. > :09:31.backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable
:09:32. > :09:35.to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed
:09:36. > :09:41.Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.
:09:42. > :09:44.He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be
:09:45. > :09:53.a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will
:09:54. > :09:59.have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg
:10:00. > :10:03.gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the
:10:04. > :10:06.Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can
:10:07. > :10:13.say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,
:10:14. > :10:17.you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that
:10:18. > :10:21.is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this
:10:22. > :10:26.morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster
:10:27. > :10:30.for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick
:10:31. > :10:37.Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that
:10:38. > :10:40.is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is
:10:41. > :10:46.essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the
:10:47. > :10:49.EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative
:10:50. > :10:54.voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all
:10:55. > :11:03.over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or
:11:04. > :11:07.out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote
:11:08. > :11:12.for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it
:11:13. > :11:17.may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.
:11:18. > :11:21.We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,
:11:22. > :11:27.our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we
:11:28. > :11:31.not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to
:11:32. > :11:35.immigration. We have been open to people across the world for
:11:36. > :11:40.centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to
:11:41. > :11:43.pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are
:11:44. > :11:47.three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,
:11:48. > :11:51.and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,
:11:52. > :11:56.and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that
:11:57. > :11:58.only this week the office for National said that they did not
:11:59. > :12:03.collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra
:12:04. > :12:07.people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size
:12:08. > :12:14.of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over
:12:15. > :12:20.the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I
:12:21. > :12:26.accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In
:12:27. > :12:31.the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the
:12:32. > :12:35.EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have
:12:36. > :12:40.to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute
:12:41. > :12:46.positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I
:12:47. > :12:49.will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David
:12:50. > :12:52.Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they
:12:53. > :12:57.really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of
:12:58. > :13:02.thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see
:13:03. > :13:06.now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control
:13:07. > :13:10.and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours. And
:13:11. > :13:16.that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would
:13:17. > :13:20.leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of
:13:21. > :13:26.Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are
:13:27. > :13:40.you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here
:13:41. > :13:44.today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and
:13:45. > :13:54.work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are
:13:55. > :13:56.wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with
:13:57. > :14:00.countries with similar living standards to us. France, the
:14:01. > :14:03.Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to
:14:04. > :14:17.join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of
:14:18. > :14:20.which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of
:14:21. > :14:24.free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm
:14:25. > :14:31.saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million
:14:32. > :14:34.British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right
:14:35. > :14:38.to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.
:14:39. > :14:42.You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants
:14:43. > :14:46.have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than
:14:47. > :14:53.they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses
:14:54. > :14:57.were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim
:14:58. > :15:03.benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that
:15:04. > :15:11.they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for
:15:12. > :15:16.more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A
:15:17. > :15:22.spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and
:15:23. > :15:28.Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party
:15:29. > :15:32.that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept
:15:33. > :15:36.it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU
:15:37. > :15:40.states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the
:15:41. > :15:44.Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration
:15:45. > :15:50.was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over
:15:51. > :15:56.again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,
:15:57. > :16:00.Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2
:16:01. > :16:06.million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you
:16:07. > :16:12.didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The
:16:13. > :16:18.Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is
:16:19. > :16:23.trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't
:16:24. > :16:28.count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for
:16:29. > :16:33.people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the
:16:34. > :16:38.habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't
:16:39. > :16:42.come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the
:16:43. > :16:46.country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say
:16:47. > :16:50.it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and
:16:51. > :16:53.multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They
:16:54. > :16:58.are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality
:16:59. > :17:02.control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.
:17:03. > :17:08.In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big
:17:09. > :17:17.businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool
:17:18. > :17:23.place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to
:17:24. > :17:27.Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think
:17:28. > :17:31.Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their
:17:32. > :17:39.backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might
:17:40. > :17:43.not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often
:17:44. > :17:46.come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it
:17:47. > :17:53.represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative
:17:54. > :17:56.Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it
:17:57. > :17:59.character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther
:18:00. > :18:03.and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics
:18:04. > :18:10.between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk
:18:11. > :18:13.time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have
:18:14. > :18:16.trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade
:18:17. > :18:21.deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United
:18:22. > :18:24.States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in
:18:25. > :18:29.favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a
:18:30. > :18:34.moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We
:18:35. > :18:37.have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants
:18:38. > :18:43.coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.
:18:44. > :18:50.How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.
:18:51. > :18:55.Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout
:18:56. > :18:58.in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs
:18:59. > :19:03.spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we
:19:04. > :19:08.undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we
:19:09. > :19:12.speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the
:19:13. > :19:17.Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening
:19:18. > :19:20.peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come
:19:21. > :19:28.together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With
:19:29. > :19:32.Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the
:19:33. > :19:36.sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling
:19:37. > :19:41.Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour
:19:42. > :19:45.doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows
:19:46. > :19:48.someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening
:19:49. > :19:52.peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they
:19:53. > :19:57.admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how
:19:58. > :20:01.Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We
:20:02. > :20:10.don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage
:20:11. > :20:13.said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies
:20:14. > :20:18.Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly
:20:19. > :20:23.but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while
:20:24. > :20:27.carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin
:20:28. > :20:32.over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire
:20:33. > :20:36.what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy
:20:37. > :20:42.is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,
:20:43. > :20:48.and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to
:20:49. > :20:54.keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign
:20:55. > :20:58.Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this
:20:59. > :21:03.issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that
:21:04. > :21:08.Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless
:21:09. > :21:13.foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very
:21:14. > :21:21.important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention
:21:22. > :21:26.in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.
:21:27. > :21:33.Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign
:21:34. > :21:38.up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP
:21:39. > :21:44.opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was
:21:45. > :21:50.against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal
:21:51. > :21:56.on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.
:21:57. > :22:00.We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other
:22:01. > :22:05.people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin
:22:06. > :22:10.is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have
:22:11. > :22:14.to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and
:22:15. > :22:21.in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,
:22:22. > :22:24.who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is
:22:25. > :22:31.important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said
:22:32. > :22:35.that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not
:22:36. > :22:40.true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and
:22:41. > :22:43.controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European
:22:44. > :22:50.Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have
:22:51. > :22:53."deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal
:22:54. > :22:58.Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is
:22:59. > :23:01.mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we
:23:02. > :23:06.must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an
:23:07. > :23:10.awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We
:23:11. > :23:14.don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role
:23:15. > :23:19.for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.
:23:20. > :23:24.You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of
:23:25. > :23:30.dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common
:23:31. > :23:34.quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so
:23:35. > :23:39.they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a
:23:40. > :23:43.European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those
:23:44. > :23:46.jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the
:23:47. > :23:51.Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since
:23:52. > :23:55.the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to
:23:56. > :24:00.try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on
:24:01. > :24:03.Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries
:24:04. > :24:08.in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to
:24:09. > :24:12.keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the
:24:13. > :24:16.Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,
:24:17. > :24:23.retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse
:24:24. > :24:27.retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers
:24:28. > :24:30.-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign
:24:31. > :24:37.Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I
:24:38. > :24:40.quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David
:24:41. > :24:45.Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than
:24:46. > :24:49.Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in
:24:50. > :24:52.the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times
:24:53. > :24:55.when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to
:24:56. > :25:00.cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are
:25:01. > :25:05.not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear
:25:06. > :25:10.that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.
:25:11. > :25:16.Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through
:25:17. > :25:19.the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from
:25:20. > :25:25.the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and
:25:26. > :25:29.not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?
:25:30. > :25:33.I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is
:25:34. > :25:35.the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we
:25:36. > :25:39.work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our
:25:40. > :25:45.non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work
:25:46. > :25:51.together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country
:25:52. > :25:58.about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't
:25:59. > :26:05.the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The
:26:06. > :26:10.trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our
:26:11. > :26:14.expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have
:26:15. > :26:19.actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but
:26:20. > :26:23.unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to
:26:24. > :26:29.cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies
:26:30. > :26:36.I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any
:26:37. > :26:42.other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We
:26:43. > :26:47.voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups
:26:48. > :26:50.haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.
:26:51. > :26:56.Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.
:26:57. > :27:00.You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we
:27:01. > :27:05.don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your
:27:06. > :27:09.attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn
:27:10. > :27:13.up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,
:27:14. > :27:18.UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they
:27:19. > :27:22.didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party
:27:23. > :27:26.decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP
:27:27. > :27:33.representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me
:27:34. > :27:39.saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are
:27:40. > :27:44.quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord
:27:45. > :27:49.and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't
:27:50. > :27:54.you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were
:27:55. > :28:00.jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back
:28:01. > :28:03.?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about
:28:04. > :28:07.getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a
:28:08. > :28:12.secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do
:28:13. > :28:18.wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People
:28:19. > :28:22.who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and
:28:23. > :28:27.that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the
:28:28. > :28:30.allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up
:28:31. > :28:34.when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of
:28:35. > :28:40.using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We
:28:41. > :28:45.were the first British political party to have independent audits of
:28:46. > :28:51.our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.
:28:52. > :28:54.The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the
:28:55. > :28:59.Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my
:29:00. > :29:02.own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been
:29:03. > :29:06.charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot
:29:07. > :29:11.lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We
:29:12. > :29:15.had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking
:29:16. > :29:21.ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people
:29:22. > :29:26.aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We
:29:27. > :29:30.can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a
:29:31. > :29:35.Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say
:29:36. > :29:41.they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have
:29:42. > :29:47.burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.
:29:48. > :29:53.Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's
:29:54. > :29:58.financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the
:29:59. > :30:04.financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that
:30:05. > :30:08.all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at
:30:09. > :30:12.the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge
:30:13. > :30:16.of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get
:30:17. > :30:20.enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal
:30:21. > :30:24.Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George
:30:25. > :30:28.Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is
:30:29. > :30:34.properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do
:30:35. > :30:38.that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will
:30:39. > :30:42.sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about
:30:43. > :30:48.?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5
:30:49. > :30:52.billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.
:30:53. > :30:57.I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to
:30:58. > :31:01.ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our
:31:02. > :31:03.money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led
:31:04. > :31:08.Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to
:31:09. > :31:17.have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...
:31:18. > :31:24.Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He
:31:25. > :31:28.is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to
:31:29. > :31:32.help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want
:31:33. > :31:36.the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party
:31:37. > :31:42.and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour
:31:43. > :31:49.victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the
:31:50. > :31:54.future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice
:31:55. > :31:57.Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the
:31:58. > :32:06.commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,
:32:07. > :32:10.if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the
:32:11. > :32:15.fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has
:32:16. > :32:17.led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It
:32:18. > :32:21.is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about
:32:22. > :32:26.the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner
:32:27. > :32:29.for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common
:32:30. > :32:34.agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make
:32:35. > :32:41.Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and
:32:42. > :32:46.China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more
:32:47. > :32:51.action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?
:32:52. > :32:56.No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional
:32:57. > :33:01.matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe
:33:02. > :33:08.progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We
:33:09. > :33:10.need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the
:33:11. > :33:30.EU. We need More powers for Brussels or not? I
:33:31. > :33:37.think the balance is about right. In some areas, we would like to see it
:33:38. > :33:44.slimmed down a bit. I'm not sure whether the EU should be... I think
:33:45. > :33:49.the EU should concentrate on their big challenges like climate change
:33:50. > :33:59.and the economy, a pollution, catching criminals. If we fritter
:34:00. > :34:04.away at political capital on interfering on national matters, we
:34:05. > :34:14.do not have the support. Would you still want to join the euro? We want
:34:15. > :34:21.the Eurozone to be... Which you want to join the euro one day? If it
:34:22. > :34:29.suits the British economy. Now is not the time. The idea in principle
:34:30. > :34:36.of a single currency has advantages. We are not ruling it out for ever.
:34:37. > :34:46.What would our relationship with Europe in the future if UKIP cots is
:34:47. > :34:58.way and we left? We would be trading partners with Europe. Would we be
:34:59. > :35:13.Norway? We would be in a stronger position than Norway. Our biggest
:35:14. > :35:17.exports are services and they would not have to agree to free trade in
:35:18. > :35:24.services. They still haven't and we are inside the EU. Let me read you
:35:25. > :35:27.something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day
:35:28. > :35:35.after our exit. Germany would demand not less. That was Digby Jones who
:35:36. > :35:43.said that. He is talking about goods, not services. You have to
:35:44. > :35:52.accept all the EU rules without having any say. Let me give you
:35:53. > :36:01.another one. No, no. Is it not looking forward, Mission impossible
:36:02. > :36:06.for David Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of powers
:36:07. > :36:14.that would satisfy you? My father was a bus driver. The only reason I
:36:15. > :36:18.am here today is because he told me you can achieve anything you want if
:36:19. > :36:22.you work hard. He also told be not to listen to doubters. If people
:36:23. > :36:27.tell you something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations,
:36:28. > :36:41.not yours. They said that we could not veto a new EU treaty, we did it.
:36:42. > :36:50.Overall, we are paying more into the European budget. People say we
:36:51. > :36:55.cannot achieve reform, but we have given the examples of it. Britain
:36:56. > :37:03.was an open country looking outward into the world. What the
:37:04. > :37:15.Conservatives now, trapped by their backbenchers, they are looking
:37:16. > :37:28.inwards, allowing the rise of UKIP. We are going to have to stop now.
:37:29. > :37:33.Thank you for a spirited debate. Just gone three o'clock. You're
:37:34. > :37:36.watching Sunday politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland to
:37:37. > :37:42.leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.
:37:43. > :37:45.Good afternoon and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:37:46. > :37:49.programme. In the last hour, Glasgow 2014 has cancelled plans for the
:37:50. > :37:52.live demolition of the Red Road flats during the opening ceremony of
:37:53. > :37:56.the Commonwealth Games. A vote for Scotland, not for the
:37:57. > :37:58.SNP. Alex Salmond reaches out to disaffected Labour voters in his
:37:59. > :38:06.message to the final party conference before the
:38:07. > :38:15.a yes vote in September is not a vote for an SNP government in 2016.
:38:16. > :38:16.It is our vote for a government in Scotland that the people in Scotland
:38:17. > :38:25.have chosen. Good afternoon. Within the last
:38:26. > :38:28.hour, it's been confirmed that controversial plans to demolish five
:38:29. > :38:31.blocks of flats on Glasgow's Red Road, as part of the Commonwealth
:38:32. > :38:34.Games opening ceremony, have been scrapped. The Chief Executive of
:38:35. > :38:37.Glasgow 2014 said the decision had been made on the basis of concerns
:38:38. > :38:42.about safety and security. It comes after a petition to halt the plans
:38:43. > :38:45.collected over 17,000 signatures. Joining me now from the newsroom is
:38:46. > :38:51.our Commonwealth Games correspondent, Chris McLaughlin.
:38:52. > :39:02.In the past hour, we have had this news and a statement from the chief
:39:03. > :39:10.executive of Glasgow 2014 seeing that the absolute priority was
:39:11. > :39:15.safety and this event would only happen if it was safe to do so. He
:39:16. > :39:19.says, it has become clear that opinions have been expressed which
:39:20. > :39:24.have changed the safety and security context. The demolition of the Red
:39:25. > :39:30.Road flats will not know picture as part of the opening ceremony.
:39:31. > :39:36.Glasgow City Council see the support the organising committee's
:39:37. > :39:41.decision, public safety is paramount. Glasgow Housing
:39:42. > :39:54.Association has said, public safety is our priority. Demolition will be
:39:55. > :39:57.rescheduled. Why wasn't there further consultation before this
:39:58. > :40:04.announcement was made with the local residents, the people of Glasgow?
:40:05. > :40:10.And why are Glasgow 2014 announcing this on the eve of a milestone to
:40:11. > :40:16.moral of 100 days to go? News they would not have been looking to
:40:17. > :40:21.release ahead of that milestone. This has universal support of those
:40:22. > :40:25.behind the Commonwealth Games, including the Scottish government.
:40:26. > :40:35.Is there any political reaction? The local Labour MSP has said that she
:40:36. > :40:39.supports it and is glad the decision has been made. But this is just the
:40:40. > :40:46.start of the furore surrounding this. Initially, people thought it
:40:47. > :40:51.was strange, but possibly a stroke of genius. Others thought it was a
:40:52. > :40:57.terrible idea. But now the question will be why was there no further
:40:58. > :41:09.consultation before this announcement was made?
:41:10. > :41:12.Joining me from our Dundee studio is former SSP MSP Carolyn Leckie who
:41:13. > :41:16.began the public petition against the demoliton.
:41:17. > :41:24.I am relieved and very pleased. I think it is great, a sensible
:41:25. > :41:32.decision. I think everybody will be believed and this 17,000 people who
:41:33. > :41:38.expressed their views the petition -- via the petition will be
:41:39. > :41:42.relieved. I think because the organisers have changed their mind,
:41:43. > :41:54.is superbly some kind of consensus has developed behind-the-scenes. --
:41:55. > :41:59.presumably. I think it should be welcomed. It is an indication that
:42:00. > :42:04.people powered can be effective and possibly highlights that, in
:42:05. > :42:21.Scotland, we can look forward to a more pirates participitive
:42:22. > :42:29.democracy. It seems as though this decision has been made on safety
:42:30. > :42:34.grounds? I can understand that the games organisers would need to find
:42:35. > :42:42.a reason for changing your mind without anyone being blamed. Is this
:42:43. > :42:45.a face-saving exercise? I'm not worried about why they have changed
:42:46. > :42:50.their mind, I am just glad they have changed their mind, they have
:42:51. > :42:53.listened and responded. The explosion as part of the ceremony
:42:54. > :43:02.will not go ahead. I just hope that the community of the Red Road flats,
:43:03. > :43:06.present and past, are not forgotten about and some of the promises that
:43:07. > :43:15.were made in the last week about regeneration, again, of an area in
:43:16. > :43:19.Glasgow are followed through. The initial justification for this was
:43:20. > :43:27.that the council were highlighting regeneration. They say, it remains
:43:28. > :43:35.our intention to dedicate a part of the opening ceremony detail of the
:43:36. > :43:39.social history of Glasgow. Is that something that you think is
:43:40. > :43:53.important that unlike yes, I think it is. One of the issues that needs
:43:54. > :43:57.to be discussed, full, -- though, is that regeneration can only work is
:43:58. > :44:03.if there is regeneration of wealth in Glasgow. There have been various
:44:04. > :44:08.attempts at regeneration of Glasgow, at that fundamental inequality has
:44:09. > :44:11.not been addressed. Various housing projects are not going to succeed if
:44:12. > :44:17.underlying poverty is not dealt with. The council would say that the
:44:18. > :44:22.regeneration of the east end of Glasgow is part of Glasgow 2014, and
:44:23. > :44:26.an important step towards that. Ultimately, these flats are going to
:44:27. > :44:31.come down. Like previous demolitions, there will be a crowd
:44:32. > :44:33.there to watch. What is the difference between that and
:44:34. > :44:42.featuring as part of the opening ceremony? It was distasteful and
:44:43. > :44:51.disrespectful to beam that is entertainment around the world.
:44:52. > :44:55.Demolitions are conducted quietly because of previous safety issues.
:44:56. > :45:00.It seems contradictory for them to then make a huge spectacle of the
:45:01. > :45:10.demolition of the Red Road flats. Also, the issue of the families,
:45:11. > :45:18.asylum seekers families, five flats are to be demolished, however, the
:45:19. > :45:24.sixth block will remain standing with asylum seeker families in it.
:45:25. > :45:30.Housing that the world has been told is unfit for human habitation. That
:45:31. > :45:35.issue as to be addressed with a border agency.
:45:36. > :45:39.We heard that tomorrow is a milestone, 100 days until the
:45:40. > :45:43.opening ceremony. You think that the announcement today and the furore
:45:44. > :45:46.over the demolition is going to overshadow what should have been an
:45:47. > :45:54.important moment for the games organisers? I think it would have
:45:55. > :46:00.overshadowed it if they had not changed their minds. I do not think
:46:01. > :46:04.that anybody who signed this petition was seeing this as
:46:05. > :46:09.something we wanted to win, just as something they wanted to stop from
:46:10. > :46:12.happening. Hopefully, this announcement will mean that they can
:46:13. > :46:17.do what ever publicity they want to do and it will not be overshadowed
:46:18. > :46:22.as much as it would have been if they had not changed their minds. I
:46:23. > :46:28.think it is a positive thing and I am really respectful of everybody
:46:29. > :46:34.involved in the decision. Thank you for joining us.
:46:35. > :46:37.Alex Salmond has appealed to disaffected Labour voters to support
:46:38. > :46:41.a yes vote in September's referendum and then back what he says will be a
:46:42. > :46:44.rejuvenated party at subsequent elections. It was part of the SNP
:46:45. > :46:47.leader's pitch to those struggling to back his position on
:46:48. > :46:50.independence. In his speech to the party faithful in Aberdeen, Mr
:46:51. > :46:53.Salmond also tried to reach out to women, another group that so far
:46:54. > :46:56.isn't wholeheartedly supporting his plans. He promoted two female
:46:57. > :46:59.ministers into his cabinet and talked about delivering childcare
:47:00. > :47:02.that would be the envy of the world. I'll speak to Alex Salmond shortly,
:47:03. > :47:25.but first Glenn Campbell reports from Aberdeen.
:47:26. > :47:39.The S is celebrating its 80th birthday. -- the SNP. And one
:47:40. > :47:43.leading light turned 50 today. But for John Swinney, the big
:47:44. > :47:48.celebration of his life will come in September if there is a yes vote. I
:47:49. > :47:53.think we will win the referendum in September. Why are you so confident?
:47:54. > :47:58.What we are seeing is a strengthening of the yes position, a
:47:59. > :48:03.narrowing of the gap. We are still behind in the opinion polls and we
:48:04. > :48:09.have to close that gap. This party still has much work to do to
:48:10. > :48:12.persuade a majority of voters to go for independence. If they are to
:48:13. > :48:18.finish over the winning line in September, the leadership knows that
:48:19. > :48:24.it must persuade voters who do not normally back the SNP to say yes to
:48:25. > :48:29.independence. That is what this weekend has been all about for the
:48:30. > :48:38.SNP, trying to reach out to potential supporters in other
:48:39. > :48:44.political tribes. For everyone out there with Labour in your heart, the
:48:45. > :48:51.message is clear. Vote yes and reclaim the Labour Party.
:48:52. > :48:55.The Nationalists reckon Labour supporters could be attracted to the
:48:56. > :49:10.independence cause with the thought that it might end Conservative rule.
:49:11. > :49:17.Those days will be gone for good. By appointing more women to Cabinet the
:49:18. > :49:23.SNP is seeking to make independence more female friendly. The party
:49:24. > :49:29.reckons its commitment to removing nuclear weapons from Scotland is
:49:30. > :49:34.evil when. In less than six months' time if we bought yes we will not be
:49:35. > :49:42.in the protest business any more. We will be in the removal business.
:49:43. > :49:49.They aim to get rid of Trident by 2020. That timetable is not set in
:49:50. > :49:58.stone. Everything will be discussed in the context of the negotiations
:49:59. > :50:03.that would follow eight Yes vote. But White Paper on independence was
:50:04. > :50:07.produced by the SNP in Government 80 years after the party was founded.
:50:08. > :50:13.There have been many false dawns in the history of the SNP. But a
:50:14. > :50:17.generation after Alex Salmond first to the leadership, the party is
:50:18. > :50:21.counting down to a fault that could result in Scotland is becoming an
:50:22. > :50:34.independent country. But what if the electorate sees no? The SNP are in a
:50:35. > :50:40.strong position. If they get are 40% thought they have demonstrably moved
:50:41. > :50:44.on the number of people supporting independence. There might be some
:50:45. > :50:50.discontent around the fringes, but Alex Salmond as a unifying figure in
:50:51. > :50:56.the party. I think he carries on. The birthday wish of the SNP this
:50:57. > :51:00.weekend is a victory in September. Even if they do not the party is not
:51:01. > :51:04.necessarily over for the Nationalists, however much they are
:51:05. > :51:12.opponents may wish it so. I am now joined by the First
:51:13. > :51:22.Minister Alex Salmond. Let me ask you about this decision
:51:23. > :51:27.on the red Road flats. It was only a couple of weeks ago your Government
:51:28. > :51:33.was supporting the idea. What is your reaction to the decision? It is
:51:34. > :51:41.a sensible decision that will be widely welcomed. There are two
:51:42. > :51:47.aspects. One is the safety aspect. Secondly there is a wider aspect.
:51:48. > :51:53.The games are a unifying force for Glasgow and Scotland. We want all
:51:54. > :51:56.aspects of the Commonwealth Games to bring Scotland's together. That is
:51:57. > :52:00.in the minds of the organising committee as well. The decision is
:52:01. > :52:06.sensible and should be supported. Carolyn Leckie told us that she
:52:07. > :52:11.thought the issue of security was a face-saving exercise. I heard the
:52:12. > :52:16.interview and Carolyn Leckie seemed a lot more positive than the BBC
:52:17. > :52:20.about the decision. I thought she responded very gracefully to the
:52:21. > :52:24.decision. The decision has been made on sensible grounds. I do not think
:52:25. > :52:31.that the safety issue is face-saving. It is very important.
:52:32. > :52:36.There is also the point about unifying. We are 100 days from the
:52:37. > :52:41.Commonwealth Games. We are about to have the greatest celebration of
:52:42. > :52:46.sport that Scotland has ever seen. All we are writing about is one
:52:47. > :52:52.aspect of the opening ceremony. If we had been in London we would have
:52:53. > :52:56.spent 20 times as much and had no security. This is one of the few
:52:57. > :53:00.games in recent history that is coming in on time and on budget.
:53:01. > :53:05.Glasgow is already blessed with some fantastic facilities. Gets behind
:53:06. > :53:09.the Commonwealth Games like everyone else and let us enjoy the occasion.
:53:10. > :53:12.I want to ask you about the speech you made yesterday.
:53:13. > :53:17.You have brought more women into your cabinets. Six months from the
:53:18. > :53:24.referendum, gnawing women are less likely to support eight Yes vote at
:53:25. > :53:28.this stage, as this opportunistic? It is not. It is something we have
:53:29. > :53:43.been pursuing for a large amount of time. It was indicated in the White
:53:44. > :53:50.Paper. It is an important symbol. You have been in power for seven
:53:51. > :54:01.years. With great respect and at its ministers in the SNP ministerial
:54:02. > :54:06.team. The qualities belief and the pensioners believe for the first
:54:07. > :54:12.time ever is a reserved responsibility. We are preparing for
:54:13. > :54:16.better things. This is the right time. We are trying to set an
:54:17. > :54:25.example. We are calling on company boards are right Scotland to have at
:54:26. > :54:29.least 40% of women represented to shore the difference changes in
:54:30. > :54:37.society as we mobilise the talent of women. The Government should lead by
:54:38. > :54:43.example. Do you personally have a problem when it comes to drawing
:54:44. > :54:49.support from one end? I do not think so. The SNP won a substantial
:54:50. > :54:54.majority of women voters at the last election. An opinion poll last week
:54:55. > :55:02.show the SNP were ahead amongst women voters for the Scottish
:55:03. > :55:05.parliament. Why are so many not convinced about the idea of
:55:06. > :55:15.independence? I was coming to that. It is not an issue about the SNP.
:55:16. > :55:22.Some people see that women are risk averse. I do not agree with that. It
:55:23. > :55:30.is more risk we are. People want to see substantive reasons for making
:55:31. > :55:33.the change to independence. Therefore they guess campaign, and
:55:34. > :55:43.the accent we are putting on childcare, will be meaningful to
:55:44. > :55:51.families. -- therefore the Yes campaign. We have got work to do. We
:55:52. > :55:57.are prepared to do that work. Let me ask you about childcare. You talked
:55:58. > :56:05.about childcare being the envy of the world. But no modelling was done
:56:06. > :56:12.to assess whether 104,000 women could be drawn into the workforce.
:56:13. > :56:20.Where did that figure come from? The 104,000 figure is if there is a 6%
:56:21. > :56:32.increase in participation of women in the workforce. The impact of
:56:33. > :56:41.having a transformation in childcare is to allow far more women to come
:56:42. > :56:52.into the workforce. But not 140,000. That is the problem. It is not a
:56:53. > :56:57.problem at all. Female participation in Sweden is 6% higher. It is
:56:58. > :57:01.reasonable to say that the reason for that is the extraordinary
:57:02. > :57:04.availability of childcare in Sweden which unfortunately we do not have
:57:05. > :57:09.in Scotland at the present moment. It is reasonable to argue that if
:57:10. > :57:13.you can produce that childcare in Scotland woman will be able to
:57:14. > :57:19.participate in the Scottish workforce.
:57:20. > :57:25.But it is the figures that are Big Issue. There are only 64,000 women
:57:26. > :57:28.in Scotland with children under the age of five who are economically
:57:29. > :57:39.inactive. You cannot use that figure of 104,000. It is not for one year.
:57:40. > :57:46.This is a rolling figure. When would you reach 104,000? I am trying to
:57:47. > :57:57.explain that. This is not a figure for one year. This is a cumulative
:57:58. > :58:03.figure. Men's participation in the workforce is 76%. Woman's
:58:04. > :58:11.participation is 70%. We should have the same participation of women in
:58:12. > :58:29.the workforce as we have men. Allow me to finish. That is where the
:58:30. > :58:35.figures come from. In the last year 65,000 more women have become
:58:36. > :58:39.employed in Scotland. If we can produce 65,001 year RUC loosely
:58:40. > :58:46.arguing we cannot get to 100,000 over a five-year period? This
:58:47. > :58:56.transformation in childcare is important to the future of Scotland.
:58:57. > :59:00.But the figures seen at a cost of ?1.2 billion would be needed to put
:59:01. > :59:04.this policy into action. You are seeing that the figures would reason
:59:05. > :59:11.700 million. How much would the policy cost? That is the additional
:59:12. > :59:20.cost over the five years, step-by-step. It will cost as an
:59:21. > :59:27.additional 700 million. The figure of quarter of a billion is being put
:59:28. > :59:31.in over the next two years. There is not a serious question about that
:59:32. > :59:35.part of the figures. There is substantial evidence coming into the
:59:36. > :59:42.Scottish Parliament committees. We are embarking upon improvement of
:59:43. > :59:45.childcare. The reason it is affordable and independence and not
:59:46. > :59:49.under devolution is that it releases all of the economic growth and
:59:50. > :59:53.taxation games when you control your own revenues. That is what makes
:59:54. > :59:59.childcare affordable and Sweden. That is what will make it affordable
:00:00. > :00:06.and Scotland. We can unleash that mobilisation of woman's talent and
:00:07. > :00:15.ability in the workforce as well as fundamentally transforming life
:00:16. > :00:19.prospects of children. This is one of the arguments for taking control
:00:20. > :00:28.of our revenues. You said you agree with many of the
:00:29. > :00:31.Labour party policies. Therefore Labour supporters can support you in
:00:32. > :00:37.the devolved elections and you can enact the policies that you see
:00:38. > :00:40.Labour are neglecting such as three descriptions. They do not need
:00:41. > :00:46.constitutional upheaval for that. To defend some of the social Democratic
:00:47. > :00:52.gains many people have chosen to vote for the SNP. But there are many
:00:53. > :00:57.other issues that require independence. To abolish nuclear
:00:58. > :01:09.weapons. To not participate in illegal wars. To stop the assault on
:01:10. > :01:25.the pure and disabled in Scotland. These are all things that you need
:01:26. > :01:37.independence for. That seems to me a compelling argument. If people
:01:38. > :01:39.thought there was going to be another Conservative Government the
:01:40. > :01:42.surge in support for independence would be even greater.
:01:43. > :01:48.You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Let's go to the news with
:01:49. > :01:52.Andrew Kerr. Good afternoon. As you've been
:01:53. > :01:55.hearing, the demolition of the Red Road flats as part of the Glasgow
:01:56. > :01:58.2014 Commonwealth Games opening ceremony has been cancelled. The
:01:59. > :02:01.Chief Executive David Grevemberg said safety and security concerns
:02:02. > :02:06.had been expressed which led to a change of heart. The live demolition
:02:07. > :02:11.had been widely criticised as crass and insensitive, with thousands
:02:12. > :02:14.signing a petition against the plan. The pilots' Union BALPA has cold on
:02:15. > :02:20.the Civil Aviation Authority not to back down on new safety improvements
:02:21. > :02:24.to helicopters which fly offshore. It comes after industry body Oil and
:02:25. > :02:29.Gas UK said the changes risk damaging safety. The new rules were
:02:30. > :02:33.prompted by a review after four people died when a Super Puma
:02:34. > :02:43.crashed off Shetland last year. BALPA say they don't want the
:02:44. > :02:52.industry back-sliding. It just seems at the moment that oil and gas UK
:02:53. > :03:01.are bringing this if the agenda forward and that will affect their
:03:02. > :03:10.production. They are stated aim is safety. We think they should fully
:03:11. > :03:13.support the view on this. Three men have been detained by
:03:14. > :03:16.police in connection with the death of a man in Largs. William
:03:17. > :03:19.McLachlan's body was discovered outside his home in Holehouse Road
:03:20. > :03:22.yesterday morning. A 19-year-old and two 20-year-olds are now in custody.
:03:23. > :03:25.Football and St Johnstone have booked their place in the Scottish
:03:26. > :03:34.Cup semifinal with a 2-1 win over Aberdeen at Ibrox. The Dons had the
:03:35. > :03:37.better of the first half but couldn't hold on, with Stevie May
:03:38. > :03:40.scoring two goals for St Johnstone in the second half.
:03:41. > :03:43.That's it. Back to Gary. A unifying feature of the SNP
:03:44. > :03:46.conference has been the determination of the party to get
:03:47. > :03:49.rid of nuclear weapons on the Clyde. John Swinney, Nicola Sturgeon and
:03:50. > :03:52.Alex Salmond in turn reiterated that there would be no deal with
:03:53. > :03:55.Westminster which allowed Trident to remain in Scotland in return for a
:03:56. > :03:58.currency Union. Future defence arrangements is the subject of the
:03:59. > :04:07.second in our series of referendum animations.
:04:08. > :04:17.Right, gather round and pay attention. Today, we are going to
:04:18. > :04:23.talk about tactics. That is some assault course. The question is what
:04:24. > :04:31.kind of defence policy would Scotland have? All of Britain's
:04:32. > :04:37.nuclear missiles are based on the River Clyde. We are not trying to
:04:38. > :04:42.attack, they want to know what kind of military force Scotland would
:04:43. > :04:51.want, and be entitled to. It says in this document, we would get rid of
:04:52. > :05:00.nuclear reference. The idea is that they are unpopular and use --
:05:01. > :05:05.unusable. There is nowhere to base them if they are not on the Clyde,
:05:06. > :05:11.so the top brass in London will be determined to keep them here. The
:05:12. > :05:17.next thing in the plan of attack would be, what would Scotland be
:05:18. > :05:24.left with? Not much to protect the oil fields. Here is the SNP. Do they
:05:25. > :05:31.plan to share something, plan and build something? What if they don't
:05:32. > :05:36.want to share? And what will happen to the infantry? The idea seems to
:05:37. > :05:43.be that you can choose if you want to be in the British forces or the
:05:44. > :05:53.Scottish forces. So I can choose who I fight for? Something like that.
:05:54. > :06:00.Can I fight for Brazil? We have a lot of coastline to defend, is this
:06:01. > :06:13.wise? It says here we could join NATO. It has a defence pact, like if
:06:14. > :06:19.one are attacked, all are attacked. I don't see it happening. What about
:06:20. > :06:29.all the other jobs in defence, like in ship loading? We sell to the
:06:30. > :06:34.Westminster governments now, so why not in the future. But why would
:06:35. > :06:42.they want to buy from a foreign country? Does anyone know what
:06:43. > :06:48.happens if Scotland votes now. It is as you were. Iraq, Afghanistan and
:06:49. > :06:54.nuclear weapons, stuff we did not want in the first place. One of the
:06:55. > :07:03.proudest and most respected fighting forces in the world. And we would
:07:04. > :07:07.need our own intelligence forces. It's time to have a look at what's
:07:08. > :07:19.been happening this week and at what's coming up in the week ahead.
:07:20. > :07:21.I'm joined in the studio now by Murray Ritchie, former political
:07:22. > :07:23.editor at the Herald, and Lindsay McIntosh, political correspondent
:07:24. > :07:27.for the Times. Let's talk about the breaking news
:07:28. > :07:29.about the Red Road flats, their demolition will not feature in the
:07:30. > :07:38.opening ceremony, was this inevitable? Perhaps not inevitable,
:07:39. > :07:46.but a sense of relief that this embarrassing row is out of the way.
:07:47. > :07:53.I can remember in bed last Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh,
:07:54. > :08:01.they ran out of money. I'm glad this has been resolved. It is a feather
:08:02. > :08:05.in the cap of Carolyn Leckie. A lot of political reaction coming in.
:08:06. > :08:09.Politicians saying it is a great thing, but a few weeks ago, they
:08:10. > :08:13.were agreeing with the decision. There has been a lot of misjudgement
:08:14. > :08:18.on how this would have gone down with the people of Glasgow. When
:08:19. > :08:31.that reared up as it has done, politicians went OK and rolled back
:08:32. > :08:37.from that position. Everyone is saying about health and safety now.
:08:38. > :08:41.I think the organisers have been guided this week. The council and
:08:42. > :08:52.the rest of them have lost their bottle, so a big row coming and
:08:53. > :08:58.backed off. I was in favour of it at first. But somebody said, what would
:08:59. > :09:05.people in Mumbai or Nairobi make of this? Nairobi has the biggest shanty
:09:06. > :09:11.towers and Africa. People without homes. They bring out the best
:09:12. > :09:15.athletes in the world. What would we make of Glasgow blowing up buildings
:09:16. > :09:19.for fun? I began to think about these things and the more I thought
:09:20. > :09:22.about it, the more I read of the idea.
:09:23. > :09:34.Let's talk about the SNP conference. What did you make of the pitch from
:09:35. > :09:41.Alex Salmond during his speech to Labour voters and women voters?
:09:42. > :09:45.Fairly naked attempts to get both groups on site. The women issue
:09:46. > :09:54.first, there are real problems with the childcare policy. I'm not
:09:55. > :09:57.convinced that the wiki answered them in terms of the amount of women
:09:58. > :10:02.who can actually get into employment even if they wanted to take that
:10:03. > :10:09.step, and also in terms of the funding. I'm not sure how will that
:10:10. > :10:14.will play with women. Secondly, the quarter policy has put in place, in
:10:15. > :10:20.the Cabinet, the idea is that will be an aspirational policy for
:10:21. > :10:25.private companies also, I don't know how well that will play with women.
:10:26. > :10:29.Obviously gender equality in the workforce can only be a positive
:10:30. > :10:36.thing, but is that the baby want to do it? If women are slow to be
:10:37. > :10:40.convinced of the idea of independence, it is partly economic
:10:41. > :10:46.concerns rather than the issues we have been talking about. The economy
:10:47. > :10:51.is the most contentious issue in the campaign. He is right to try and get
:10:52. > :10:55.women's votes, nothing wrong with that. But if you look back in the
:10:56. > :11:02.campaign, the big issues, Europe and the economy, I think the SNP are
:11:03. > :11:06.ahead on both of these. The economic argument fell apart when we found
:11:07. > :11:16.that there would be a unified currency. This idea that one or two,
:11:17. > :11:20.or three or four individuals can decide our currency, or decide not
:11:21. > :11:26.to have a currency is nonsense. That is not a question for our
:11:27. > :11:30.government, it is a question for Parliament. I think people have
:11:31. > :11:35.recognised the yes campaign were right to challenge this refusal and
:11:36. > :11:44.the whole thing has backfired on Westminster. What about their appeal
:11:45. > :11:49.to disaffected Labour voters, we know that there are a lot because
:11:50. > :11:57.many of them voted SNP at the last election? Blair Jenkins from the yes
:11:58. > :12:01.campaign suggests that polls are seeing an independent Scotland would
:12:02. > :12:08.be fairer than the position at the moment, but is that enough? It has
:12:09. > :12:16.to be. The cause these 800,000 or so traditional Labour voters are vital
:12:17. > :12:20.to both sides of the campaign. It is now down to Labour, really. If they
:12:21. > :12:27.were watching Alex Salmond at the weekend making this overt appeal
:12:28. > :12:33.directly to Labour voters, I think the party has to look at that and
:12:34. > :12:42.think, what do we do now? What they need to do, as the Lib Dems have
:12:43. > :12:49.cold for them to do, is get the big beasts out. What is your sense of
:12:50. > :12:52.whether or not this notion of a rejuvenated Labour Party in an
:12:53. > :12:56.independent Scotland might appeal to Labour voters? I think it is a good
:12:57. > :13:04.idea. The Labour Party in Scotland never took to Tony Blair, they were
:13:05. > :13:10.reluctant to embrace new Labour. I think Labour have got a problem in
:13:11. > :13:14.Scotland. The yes campaign is really bouncing just now. All over the
:13:15. > :13:20.country, there are meetings in pubs, clubs, town halls, villages, people
:13:21. > :13:25.discussing the referendum and independence and it is all coming
:13:26. > :13:36.from the yes campaign. I think I have that one leaflet through my
:13:37. > :13:39.door from the no camp. The SNP... Before we go down that road, either
:13:40. > :13:47.have to stop you. Thank you both for joining us.
:13:48. > :13:52.That is all from us this week. We are off for the next two weeks for
:13:53. > :13:54.the Easter break. Join us on Sunday the 4th of May at the usual time of
:13:55. > :13:59.11am. Goodbye.