:00:48. > :00:55.The moulds and did in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in
:00:56. > :01:00.custody. He may have got egg on his face this
:01:01. > :01:05.week but Nigel Farage is a serious threat in this non-'s elections. I
:01:06. > :01:08.will ask the Conservatives how worried they are.
:01:09. > :01:12.And we are on the trail of Nick Clegg.
:01:13. > :01:19.You were voted the best looking party leader.
:01:20. > :01:21.We will talk to the party's deputy leader as he faces oblivion in the
:01:22. > :01:23.European elections. Coming up on Sunday Politics
:01:24. > :01:26.Scotland: Alex Salmond's speech in Belgium argued for a speedy
:01:27. > :01:29.accession to the EU if Scotland votes for independence.
:01:30. > :01:38.The UK government says that won't happen. We'll look at who's right.
:01:39. > :01:41.debate what it means for London. And with me, as always, the best and
:01:42. > :01:44.the brightest political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis
:01:45. > :01:49.and Janan Ganesh. They'll be throwing metaphorical rotten eggs
:01:50. > :01:53.into the twittersphere. First this morning - Gerry Adams,
:01:54. > :01:56.President of Sinn Fein, has spent a fourth night in police custody after
:01:57. > :02:09.he was arrested in connection with the killing of Jean McConville more
:02:10. > :02:12.than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has claimed that the arrest is
:02:13. > :02:15.politically motivated coming, as it does, during local and European
:02:16. > :02:17.election campaigns. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister,
:02:18. > :02:20.Martin McGuinness, has indicated he might review the party's support for
:02:21. > :02:23.policing in the province if Gerry Adams is charged. The Jean
:02:24. > :02:25.McConville murder was one of the most notorious cases of the
:02:26. > :02:27.Troubles. The widowed mother of ten was
:02:28. > :02:36.kidnapped from her home The widowed mother of ten was
:02:37. > :02:42.The IRA denied involvement but in 1999 admitted it had murdered her
:02:43. > :02:46.and several others, known as the Disappeared. Before his death, the
:02:47. > :02:49.former IRA commander Brendan Hughes Disappeared. Before his death, the
:02:50. > :03:01.pointed the finger at Gerry Adams, claiming:
:03:02. > :03:11.In April this year, either Bell was charged with aiding and abetting the
:03:12. > :03:16.murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams has always insisted he is innocent
:03:17. > :03:20.of any part in the abduction and killing all burial of Mrs
:03:21. > :03:23.McConville. We were hoping to speak to the
:03:24. > :03:26.Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, but having agreed to do an
:03:27. > :03:33.interview with us this morning, she pulled out. But we are joined from
:03:34. > :03:38.Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And
:03:39. > :03:50.the police just doing their job by questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams
:03:51. > :03:54.said publicly some time ago that he was available to speak to the
:03:55. > :04:00.police, but that is not what this is about at the moment, because what we
:04:01. > :04:04.have here is clearly evidence in our mind of political interference in
:04:05. > :04:08.what should be due process. Gerry Adams made it clear some time ago he
:04:09. > :04:14.wanted to speak to the police, it was available at any time, and yet
:04:15. > :04:18.that request was not taken up until three weeks into an election and we
:04:19. > :04:24.believe that was deliberately orchestrated by a small number of
:04:25. > :04:31.people. What evidence can you present this morning that proves
:04:32. > :04:37.that claim? The direct circumstances Gerry Adams finds himself in at the
:04:38. > :04:48.moment, take that in stark contrast when they have dealt with members of
:04:49. > :04:56.the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The
:04:57. > :05:01.PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other
:05:02. > :05:07.high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people
:05:08. > :05:12.has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were
:05:13. > :05:22.interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they
:05:23. > :05:27.have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't
:05:28. > :05:33.got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the
:05:34. > :05:37.PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference
:05:38. > :05:44.in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from
:05:45. > :05:48.the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the
:05:49. > :05:55.peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in
:05:56. > :06:00.local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have
:06:01. > :06:06.powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is
:06:07. > :06:11.a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and
:06:12. > :06:28.making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react
:06:29. > :06:34.if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer.
:06:35. > :06:40.If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern
:06:41. > :06:45.Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious
:06:46. > :06:50.ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a
:06:51. > :06:55.very important role to play to support the police service here. We
:06:56. > :07:01.have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will
:07:02. > :07:05.not accept political interference by a small number of people in the
:07:06. > :07:14.police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political
:07:15. > :07:19.policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we
:07:20. > :07:23.have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams
:07:24. > :07:28.being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from
:07:29. > :07:34.the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of
:07:35. > :07:43.evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why
:07:44. > :07:47.should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you
:07:48. > :07:52.expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the
:07:53. > :07:57.matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to
:07:58. > :08:01.Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a
:08:02. > :08:06.range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made
:08:07. > :08:09.from people, including from people who didn't want their statements
:08:10. > :08:19.released until they have died. who didn't want their statements
:08:20. > :08:27.was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process
:08:28. > :08:31.fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and
:08:32. > :08:33.we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and
:08:34. > :08:47.British and privately with the Irish and
:08:48. > :08:50.process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the
:08:51. > :08:55.woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat
:08:56. > :09:04.out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What
:09:05. > :09:08.question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile
:09:09. > :09:15.and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to
:09:16. > :09:21.use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us.
:09:22. > :09:26.Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in
:09:27. > :09:31.days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the
:09:32. > :09:35.peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain
:09:36. > :09:40.of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having
:09:41. > :09:45.mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you
:09:46. > :09:49.have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't,
:09:50. > :10:00.you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell
:10:01. > :10:03.but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers.
:10:04. > :10:11.Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no
:10:12. > :10:17.action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a
:10:18. > :10:25.one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by
:10:26. > :10:28.the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these
:10:29. > :10:33.inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with
:10:34. > :10:38.the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of
:10:39. > :10:43.real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping
:10:44. > :10:47.he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if
:10:48. > :10:55.everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of
:10:56. > :10:58.the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster
:10:59. > :11:07.to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees
:11:08. > :11:11.himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern
:11:12. > :11:16.Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very
:11:17. > :11:21.revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble
:11:22. > :11:26.Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared
:11:27. > :11:29.don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the
:11:30. > :11:35.Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which
:11:36. > :11:40.it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during
:11:41. > :11:45.the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to
:11:46. > :11:53.tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and
:11:54. > :12:00.military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for
:12:01. > :12:04.the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the
:12:05. > :12:11.confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if
:12:12. > :12:15.even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave
:12:16. > :12:25.it there I'm afraid. It was the the same trap. We have to is leave
:12:26. > :12:28.campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning
:12:29. > :12:32.local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or
:12:33. > :12:34.local issues like the state of our Prime Minister re-iterated again his
:12:35. > :12:37.promise of an in-out referendum on our membership
:12:38. > :12:38.promise of an in-out referendum on And it's being reported this morning
:12:39. > :12:40.that he will share And it's being reported this morning
:12:41. > :12:44.Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what
:12:45. > :12:46.Nigel Farage in a pre-general UKIP leader had to say
:12:47. > :12:53.Nigel Farage in a pre-general issue when he was on the Marr Show
:12:54. > :12:57.this morning with Ed Miliband. David Cameron very often makes these vague
:12:58. > :13:03.promises, then doesn't deliver afterwards. I don't think he has any
:13:04. > :13:10.intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband
:13:11. > :13:15.wants to debate? We have got to have the TV debates as we did join the
:13:16. > :13:20.last general election. I think David Cameron is doing everything he can
:13:21. > :13:25.to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters but whether they
:13:26. > :13:36.invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined
:13:37. > :13:43.now by Grant Shapps. Will he be included? The debates were not
:13:44. > :13:46.without problems, they took place during the campaign period and
:13:47. > :13:52.disrupted the flow of the campaign, taking it out of the regions, people
:13:53. > :13:56.getting to speak to the leaders so a longer period for that would be
:13:57. > :14:01.helpful. I think they are good idea and they should go ahead, but all of
:14:02. > :14:07.the negotiation about who is involved is yet to happen. So it is
:14:08. > :14:12.not a done deal that Nigel Farage will be included? That needs to be
:14:13. > :14:17.negotiated with the TV companies. The Conservatives believe we should
:14:18. > :14:25.have debates, but exactly the format and the timing, all of the -- that
:14:26. > :14:31.will be debated in the autumn, but first we have European elections,
:14:32. > :14:38.the Queen 's speech and a Scottish referendum. The local election
:14:39. > :14:48.campaign was launched on Friday. Why did you talk more about Europe than
:14:49. > :14:52.local councils? Both are important. The local elections are critically
:14:53. > :14:58.important for people, their local services. It is easy to forget, for
:14:59. > :15:02.example, that the council tax has been largely frozen since this
:15:03. > :15:06.Government came to power, a big contrast to Dublin under the
:15:07. > :15:13.previous Labour government. So why did you go on and on about Europe?
:15:14. > :15:22.Let me show you the poster used to launch your local election campaign.
:15:23. > :15:26.There it is, and in-out referendum on Europe, the day of the local
:15:27. > :15:32.elections, where is the word local? Is it in small print? I hear what
:15:33. > :15:36.you're saying, I am happy to be here to talk about the local elections.
:15:37. > :15:40.But you are right, they are on the same day, and not many people know
:15:41. > :15:45.that only by voting conservative can you get an in-out referendum. --
:15:46. > :15:53.Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver, we can, it is the same date, so
:15:54. > :15:56.people... This was the launch of the local election campaign. Why does
:15:57. > :16:00.the Prime Minister have to keep on promising something he has already
:16:01. > :16:08.promised? The actual referendum would be in 2017. He promised it
:16:09. > :16:12.before, he keeps repeating it because he knows people don't really
:16:13. > :16:16.trust him. I think it is a question of the fact that, actually, unless
:16:17. > :16:21.you remind people that the pledges there, that the only way to get an
:16:22. > :16:25.in-out referendum is to vote for it, this is a critical moment at
:16:26. > :16:31.which we need people to vote for that referendum if they want it. It
:16:32. > :16:35.is not the case, as I saw this morning, being said by Nigel Farage,
:16:36. > :16:39.that a referendum was promised before and not delivered. There was
:16:40. > :16:47.no referendum in the last manifesto. There will be in the next one. There
:16:48. > :16:55.was a cast-iron guarantee, in the Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that
:16:56. > :17:00.up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In the Sun article, he said, we will
:17:01. > :17:04.have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty
:17:05. > :17:09.had been passed before the general election, it is difficult to have a
:17:10. > :17:16.referendum on something in the past. We joined Europe in the 1970s,
:17:17. > :17:19.having a referendum on that! Look, that is about the future. Our
:17:20. > :17:25.relationship with Europe is absolutely critical. Most people in
:17:26. > :17:30.this country feel, I was not old enough to vote in that referendum,
:17:31. > :17:33.most of those who voted, they voted for a Common Market, that is not
:17:34. > :17:41.what we have got. We want to continue the work we have been doing
:17:42. > :17:45.in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do? They voted against it. We want more
:17:46. > :17:48.of those powers brought home, and we will put it to a referendum, and
:17:49. > :17:54.people will have to vote Conservative to get it. We have been
:17:55. > :17:58.looking at new research, almost two thirds of Conservative members are
:17:59. > :18:06.considering voting for UKIP, almost two thirds. I have a simple message
:18:07. > :18:15.here, which is this. If you vote for UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are
:18:16. > :18:19.likely, 30% are possible. That is why it is important we are making
:18:20. > :18:23.these arguments. If you vote for UKIP, you are voting to take us
:18:24. > :18:29.further away from returning powers to this country, further from a
:18:30. > :18:32.referendum. It is support for Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister,
:18:33. > :18:37.and he will do exactly what Labour have always done - hand away powers,
:18:38. > :18:41.and away the rebate for nothing in return, giving Europe even more so
:18:42. > :18:45.over the day-to-day affairs in Britain. Why are so many people
:18:46. > :18:50.considering voting UKIP? It is to hold your feet to the fire, they do
:18:51. > :18:54.not trust you on a referendum, so they will vote UKIP to force you to
:18:55. > :18:59.tap in your line. We have a very tough line. If I had said four years
:19:00. > :19:04.ago that this government would manage to cut the overall EU
:19:05. > :19:08.budget, would take us out of the bailout fund that Labour got us
:19:09. > :19:12.into, passing a law that no more powers can go to Europe without a
:19:13. > :19:17.referendum, if I had said that, people would say, I do not believe
:19:18. > :19:20.it will happen. Not only have we done these things, we are promising
:19:21. > :19:24.and in-out referendum, and the only way to get it is to vote
:19:25. > :19:28.Conservative. Nigel Farage has said, we can't change anything in
:19:29. > :19:33.Europe, and it is no wonder that the president of the European Commission
:19:34. > :19:38.has said, we love having these UKIP MEPs, because they don't turn up and
:19:39. > :19:44.vote, apart from when they vote against the cut in the budget. It
:19:45. > :19:48.goes beyond UKIP in your party, because this research also showed
:19:49. > :19:53.that those Conservative members most likely to vote for UKIP, they said
:19:54. > :19:57.they do not feel valued or respected by their own leadership, and they
:19:58. > :20:03.regard David Cameron as ideological eat more remote from them than UKIP.
:20:04. > :20:12.What I would say is look at that list... Let me take that step
:20:13. > :20:16.further. What people need our series solutions to serious
:20:17. > :20:20.further. What people need our series people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will
:20:21. > :20:26.say, which one of the 40% of people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will
:20:27. > :20:30.MEPs who got in for UKIP last time are you voting for, the ones above
:20:31. > :20:35.MEPs who got in for UKIP last time to jail? 40% have ended up not
:20:36. > :20:39.delivering. People have a right to know what to expect when they vote
:20:40. > :20:41.in these elections. They can look at our record at home, and this goes to
:20:42. > :20:46.the point you have our record at home, and this goes to
:20:47. > :20:51.we have done in Britain to get this economy back on track, recover from
:20:52. > :20:59.Labour's recession. We are prepared to take those decisions
:21:00. > :21:00.Labour's recession. We are prepared well. Presumably, active
:21:01. > :21:07.Conservative members, they know that, so why do they
:21:08. > :21:14.Conservative members, they know going up and down the country
:21:15. > :21:20.they are on the doorstep, last weekend
:21:21. > :21:22.they are on the doorstep, last local elections... Why
:21:23. > :21:26.they are on the doorstep, last on UKIP? When I meet somebody who
:21:27. > :21:33.says that, not necessarily a member... Have you met members of
:21:34. > :21:42.say they will vote UKIP? No, but a vote for UKIP is... Do not do it,
:21:43. > :21:48.you will end up with Labour having more control, handing away powers to
:21:49. > :21:50.Europe. 51-year-old meeting members who say they will vote UKIP, you
:21:51. > :21:56.must be out of touch. -- if who say they will vote UKIP, you
:21:57. > :22:00.not meeting members. Some of your members are thinking of voting UKIP.
:22:01. > :22:05.I spend huge amount of time travelling around, I just told you
:22:06. > :22:11.about this action day in Enfield, where we had an enormous turnout.
:22:12. > :22:14.Those members were on the doorsteps pointing out that you can only get
:22:15. > :22:21.reform in Europe by voting Conservative. Labour and the Lib
:22:22. > :22:26.Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't, Conservatives will. You have not got
:22:27. > :22:33.that message across, because a YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who
:22:34. > :22:40.has the best policies? Tories 18%, Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the
:22:41. > :22:45.economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP 4. Why don't you shut up about
:22:46. > :22:51.Europe and talk about the economy? Look, on the 27th of May, we have
:22:52. > :22:54.European elections, as well as local elections. If I don't talk about the
:22:55. > :22:58.European elections, you would say what you said at the beginning about
:22:59. > :23:01.not talking about the local elections! These are serious
:23:02. > :23:06.elections, and the point I am tried to make is that the issues at stake
:23:07. > :23:11.are not peripheral, they are not unimportant. Our MEPs have been
:23:12. > :23:13.battling to cut red tape from a European level on small businesses,
:23:14. > :23:16.the same thing this government has been doing for small businesses
:23:17. > :23:23.domestic league, where for example every small business owner watching
:23:24. > :23:25.this show knows they have got ?2000 back in employment announced on
:23:26. > :23:29.national insurance contributions. We are doing it at home, we are doing
:23:30. > :23:34.it in Europe, and it is important to tie that together. Ireland that Mr
:23:35. > :23:50.Cameron saying, you should stop banging on about Europe... -- I
:23:51. > :23:57.remember. This is before the last general election, as in days for the
:23:58. > :24:01.remember. This is before the last Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't
:24:02. > :24:06.win the election, and now you are only three or four points ahead, it
:24:07. > :24:12.doesn't look good for you, does it? Even then, the poll did not turn out
:24:13. > :24:17.to be what it was on the day. No, that is what happens, that is the
:24:18. > :24:19.voting intentions now! You are in a worse position than a year before
:24:20. > :24:27.the last election, which you didn't win. We are almost proving the point
:24:28. > :24:31.that you can take a clip at any moment in time, not sounding like a
:24:32. > :24:36.politician, but the only poll that matters is on the day. In just over
:24:37. > :24:42.a year's time, people will have a completely different picture to look
:24:43. > :24:46.at than these opinion polls. We have an economy from being a basket
:24:47. > :24:51.case, the great Labour recession knocking 7% of this economy, hurting
:24:52. > :24:56.every family, to a point where we the fastest-growing economy in the
:24:57. > :24:59.developed world. In a year's time, I hope people will see that we are the
:25:00. > :25:04.people who've taken the difficult decisions, got the economy to the
:25:05. > :25:07.right place, more security for you and your family. Do not give the car
:25:08. > :25:12.keys back to the people who crashed it in the first place. If I had a
:25:13. > :25:17.pound for every time I have heard that! It is clearly not getting
:25:18. > :25:24.through. On the Pfizer attempted of AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this
:25:25. > :25:29.morning for a tougher public interest test such big takeovers. Do
:25:30. > :25:35.you agree with that or not? Let me be absolutely clear, if there is any
:25:36. > :25:43.kind of joining, we are in favour of British jobs, British aren't deep,
:25:44. > :25:56.expanding our pharmaceutical sector. -- R But what Mr Mallon and wants
:25:57. > :26:00.to do with rent caps, he is anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He
:26:01. > :26:13.wants to take us back to the bad old those. -- bad old days. Should there
:26:14. > :26:17.be a bigger public interest test? We have seen some takeovers that people
:26:18. > :26:22.have criticised, but others, like Bentley, Land Rover, which have been
:26:23. > :26:27.very successful. Should there be a tougher test?! We will have tests
:26:28. > :26:31.that ensured this get-together becomes a great Anglo-American
:26:32. > :26:36.project, or it doesn't happen, but the Miliband approach is simply to
:26:37. > :26:40.be anti-business, anti-jobs and anti-job security. Grant Shapps,
:26:41. > :26:43.thank you. A challenging week for the Liberal
:26:44. > :26:47.Democrats with a local election campaign overshadowed by another row
:26:48. > :26:50.with the Conservatives about knife crime. Adam has spent the day with
:26:51. > :26:56.Nick Clegg on the campaign trail. crime. Adam has spent the day with
:26:57. > :26:59.How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on a political mini break to the
:27:00. > :27:04.Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the train. He wants to highlight what
:27:05. > :27:09.his party is doing in local government, and a personal passion
:27:10. > :27:13.of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has
:27:14. > :27:19.been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is
:27:20. > :27:23.that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page
:27:24. > :27:28.manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he
:27:29. > :27:36.does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took
:27:37. > :27:39.a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven
:27:40. > :27:46.world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to
:27:47. > :27:51.make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring
:27:52. > :27:56.them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous
:27:57. > :28:01.country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very
:28:02. > :28:06.on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few
:28:07. > :28:11.years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do
:28:12. > :28:14.not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are
:28:15. > :28:19.doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,
:28:20. > :28:24.actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a
:28:25. > :28:29.national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any
:28:30. > :28:34.leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of
:28:35. > :28:37.Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has
:28:38. > :28:41.been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a
:28:42. > :28:47.town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full
:28:48. > :28:52.on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime Minister, do you outrank him? I
:28:53. > :28:58.don't think so, he is in government, I am not. So our there any normal
:28:59. > :29:03.people in here? We are from Swindon, you cannot get more
:29:04. > :29:10.abnormal. Are you a big fan of his? No! What has he done wrong? I don't
:29:11. > :29:17.believe in his views at all. Where has he got to? Nigel Farage would
:29:18. > :29:24.have had a pint! At this time in the morning a copy was more appropriate.
:29:25. > :29:28.I have no time for a drink of any kind, because now we are off to look
:29:29. > :29:32.at a local traffic blackspot. This is amazing, like a Lib Dem election
:29:33. > :29:39.leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems pointing at a road. High-vis
:29:40. > :29:45.jackets! Next we had to giggle full bath, but there will be no Regency
:29:46. > :29:55.sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is taking us to an abandoned
:29:56. > :29:58.wilderness. We have just had a health and safety briefing, we have
:29:59. > :30:02.been told to look out for dive-bombing seagulls and an angry
:30:03. > :30:06.fox. That is the sort of thing Nick Clegg has to put up with. He wants
:30:07. > :30:13.to talk about the economy but he has to dodge the day's beat new story,
:30:14. > :30:17.letters leaked by a Tory suggesting that Lib Dems are soft on knife
:30:18. > :30:27.crime. Isn't that a new kind of warfare? I just think it is silly.
:30:28. > :30:31.They may think they are clever by catching some headlines but they are
:30:32. > :30:39.not helping people who worry about knife crime, like I do. We work
:30:40. > :30:41.together... knife crime, like I do. We work
:30:42. > :30:49.Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses
:30:50. > :30:55.share the same office. My time with the Deputy Prime Minister is
:30:56. > :30:57.to a close. We haven't talked about the most important story of the
:30:58. > :31:07.week, that you were voted the most important story of the
:31:08. > :31:09.likely to be a good cook. Right, this is news to me and I can
:31:10. > :31:12.guarantee you this is news to me and I can
:31:13. > :31:16.opinion polls has this is news to me and I can
:31:17. > :31:22.confirmed. Just as well because the more serious polls don't look great
:31:23. > :31:29.for him or his party. Goodbye, and thanks for the offer of a ride
:31:30. > :31:34.home! He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce
:31:35. > :31:40.joins us now. According to Lib Dem briefing documents, you are likely
:31:41. > :31:45.to choose -- lose a big chunk of your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what
:31:46. > :31:49.would that say about a party that boasts of its pro-Europe
:31:50. > :31:56.credentials? It would be disappointing because we have the
:31:57. > :32:01.most hard-working MEPs. The worry that we have is that people think
:32:02. > :32:09.the European Parliament is not important but it takes decisions
:32:10. > :32:13.that affect us. They would be disappointing for Britain as well as
:32:14. > :32:18.the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the problem that the more you bang on
:32:19. > :32:24.about your pro-European credentials, the more you slip in the polls? I do
:32:25. > :32:35.think so, we have two weeks to go and we are campaigning extremely
:32:36. > :32:39.hard. You are forced in the polls. I can tell you there are people out
:32:40. > :32:45.there who do believe Britain should stay in the EU and they are worried
:32:46. > :32:50.that other parties will take us out. The Liberal Democrats are clear, we
:32:51. > :32:54.want to stay in, we will work for reform and do it effectively. If you
:32:55. > :33:01.lose the Liberal Democrats, Britain's influence in Europe will
:33:02. > :33:05.be weakened. Your track record in Europe shows you have been
:33:06. > :33:12.spectacularly wrong again and again. In your 2009 manifesto you said the
:33:13. > :33:17.European Central Bank and the euro have been tried and tested over ten
:33:18. > :33:23.years providing a clear picture of the benefits of Eurozone membership
:33:24. > :33:27.and that proved to be nonsense. It was nonsense everywhere. Every
:33:28. > :33:32.developed bank in the world was tried and tested and failed. Europe
:33:33. > :33:37.may not be perfect, but the question people have to decide is if we are
:33:38. > :33:44.going to leave Europe and be isolated on RM, or use our influence
:33:45. > :33:47.to reform it from inside. We have allies, you work with them, that is
:33:48. > :34:08.something the The reason we were wrong to some
:34:09. > :34:14.extent is that the euro, when it was set up, did not follow any of the
:34:15. > :34:17.rules and regulations. That's why we never recommended that Britain
:34:18. > :34:22.should join at the outset because the criteria had not been met. I was
:34:23. > :34:29.the spokesman at the time and I made that clear.
:34:30. > :34:35.Because your track record is important. British monetary
:34:36. > :34:42.sovereignty is not all it is cracked up to be. This is what you said. How
:34:43. > :34:46.wrong can you be? Hello-mac I said that we were in
:34:47. > :34:51.favour in principle of having a single currency and a single market.
:34:52. > :34:55.But we have always argued that it had to abide by strict gritty area.
:34:56. > :35:06.It hasn't done so and that is one of the reasons that it has failed. --
:35:07. > :35:13.strict criteria. Your 2010 manifesto did advocate it.
:35:14. > :35:16.It said, we believe it is in Britain's long-term interest to be
:35:17. > :35:25.part of the euro. If the single market -- there will
:35:26. > :35:30.come points when the UK may well benefit... Only in the long run. In
:35:31. > :35:35.the circumstances we are in at the moment, there is no recommended
:35:36. > :35:41.timescale for joining the euro. Despite the Eurozone crisis, which
:35:42. > :35:47.has caused a loss of millions of jobs, countries that were teetering
:35:48. > :35:51.on the brink of bankruptcy with the Eurozone now facing stagnation and
:35:52. > :35:56.some countries on the brink of deflation, you still will not rule
:35:57. > :36:00.out Britain joining? Hello-mac we are ruling out Britain
:36:01. > :36:04.joining in the near future. We are working, in the present
:36:05. > :36:11.circumstances, as a partner in the coalition governments to secure
:36:12. > :36:21.economic covering. That is our current track record.
:36:22. > :36:30.What would the climate look like when it was right for Europe --
:36:31. > :36:34.Britain to join the euro? Until you have a strong enough and
:36:35. > :36:37.cohesive enough Eurozone in which all the countries can meet that kind
:36:38. > :36:47.of criteria, written is better off out.
:36:48. > :36:51.It can only happen by consent and we have made it clear that any
:36:52. > :36:55.circumstances in which any further powers can be transferred from the
:36:56. > :37:02.UK to the EU, we would support a referendum. We put that into law in
:37:03. > :37:05.the present Parliament. But you have said they would have to
:37:06. > :37:10.be a much more distinct fiscal and monetary policy. You said that if
:37:11. > :37:15.that was the case Britain would join.
:37:16. > :37:20.No, I said that all of the member states would have to agree to these
:37:21. > :37:21.criteria. We do not envisage joining in the present circumstances or in
:37:22. > :37:29.the foreseeable future. Why won't you just give us a
:37:30. > :37:38.referendum on in or out? Why won't you just give us a
:37:39. > :37:42.be context. What David Cameron is doing is dangerous.
:37:43. > :37:47.be context. What David Cameron is member states are not keen on the
:37:48. > :37:47.be context. What David Cameron is on the instigation of just one
:37:48. > :37:53.member states, on the instigation of just one
:37:54. > :37:58.to agree to rules that we will not agree to abide by.
:37:59. > :38:00.to agree to rules that we will not Do you want in or out?
:38:01. > :38:05.Our argument is that you need to have a context. To have a referendum
:38:06. > :38:10.against no background whatsoever is to put it out of context. We are one
:38:11. > :38:14.year away from the general election. We have
:38:15. > :38:18.that... Went back so there is still a
:38:19. > :38:25.Eurozone crisis? We are in the process of recovering.
:38:26. > :38:28.The reality is that the whole of the Western world has gone through
:38:29. > :38:29.The reality is that the whole of the very deep crisis. The UK is coming
:38:30. > :38:33.out of bed and the Eurozone very deep crisis. The UK is coming
:38:34. > :38:38.coming out of it. Greece has been able to borrow back on the market
:38:39. > :38:42.again in recent weeks, which is a sign of recovery and success. It is
:38:43. > :38:47.in our interest that the Eurozone succeeds. But that doesn't mean we
:38:48. > :38:48.have to be part of it on the same conditions as everyone else. I will
:38:49. > :38:54.tell you that the Lib Dems work to conditions as everyone else. I will
:38:55. > :38:56.deliver the UK's interests. If we are not bear, the UK's interests
:38:57. > :38:58.will be undermined. are not bear, the UK's interests
:38:59. > :39:08.When Max you are Politics.
:39:09. > :39:12.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:39:13. > :39:15.programme.... After the First Minister's speech in
:39:16. > :39:19.Brussels arguing the case for a speedy EU accession in the event of
:39:20. > :39:22.a Yes vote, we look at the potential terms and ask what role do small
:39:23. > :39:26.countries play in Europe? I would say that our role, even
:39:27. > :39:28.though we are a small country, is quite significant.
:39:29. > :39:31.And Business Improvement Districts - do they help
:39:32. > :39:34.And Business Improvement Districts - centres or do we need to think about
:39:35. > :39:38.public space differently? Good morning. The First Minister
:39:39. > :39:41.Alex Salmond was in Belgium this week to argue the case for Scotland
:39:42. > :39:44.to be swiftly granted full membership of the European Union if
:39:45. > :39:47.there's a 'yes' vote in the independence referendum.
:39:48. > :39:49.The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, said that could not be
:39:50. > :39:53.guaranteed and predicted long, complex negotiations, resulting in a
:39:54. > :39:56.worse deal for Scotland. So, who's right? Our political correspondent,
:39:57. > :40:08.Glenn Campbell, reports from Brussels.
:40:09. > :40:14.Welcome to the Belgian city of beer and bureaucracy. Brussels is not
:40:15. > :40:19.only famous for brewing, that it is also home to the institutions of the
:40:20. > :40:24.EU. If there is a Yes vote in September, the Scottish government
:40:25. > :40:29.would not only have to open negotiations on independence with
:40:30. > :40:42.the UK Government in London, they would also have to send a delegation
:40:43. > :40:47.here to Brussels. Not to step Coffey and eat waffles, but to sit down
:40:48. > :40:53.with the member states of the EU to negotiate independent Scottish
:40:54. > :40:57.membership. The current EU commission president has made that
:40:58. > :41:01.sounds like a nonstarter. I believe it is going to be
:41:02. > :41:06.extremely difficult if not impossible. A new member states
:41:07. > :41:11.coming out of one of our countries, getting the agreement of the
:41:12. > :41:16.other... This analyst is not as optimistic
:41:17. > :41:25.about Britain's -- Scotland's prospects.
:41:26. > :41:30.Spain has internal problems with Catalonia where Madrid has sought to
:41:31. > :41:36.prevent Catalonia from seceding from the unitary states. They might seek
:41:37. > :41:44.all possible ways in trying to delay its Scottish advancements in this
:41:45. > :41:49.area and so as not to create a precedent.
:41:50. > :41:54.In Bruges, the First Minister argued this week that oil-rich, fish rich
:41:55. > :41:56.Scotland would be readily accepted into the EU because the alternative
:41:57. > :42:05.would not be in anyone's best interest.
:42:06. > :42:11.They would be denied access to Scottish waters, and as a result
:42:12. > :42:16.Norwegian waters. 160,000 EU workers, students and voters in
:42:17. > :42:25.Scotland is would suddenly be uncertain about their status. This
:42:26. > :42:31.alternative is clearly absurd. What would they make of that at
:42:32. > :51:36.European Commission headquarters? In the
:51:37. > :51:42.organised. How do smaller states make a difference within the EU?
:51:43. > :51:55.They have got to have a different strategy. They try and get on the
:51:56. > :52:02.winning side. With other like-minded states. They succeed when they are
:52:03. > :52:06.organised, flexible, so that they know their way around. They can
:52:07. > :52:14.anticipate what is going to be on the agenda. They try and influence
:52:15. > :52:23.policy and they try to adopt April European attitude. -- pro-European.
:52:24. > :52:33.They select the issues on which they want to intervene. Thank you.
:52:34. > :52:37.The effects of the recent economic downturn are evident in town centres
:52:38. > :52:40.up and down Scotland. Many high streets have been reduced to rows of
:52:41. > :52:44.betting shops, charity shops and money shops alongside boarded up
:52:45. > :52:47.units. One attempt at encouraging growth has been the development of
:52:48. > :52:50.Business Improvement Districts - or BIDs - which were introduced here in
:52:51. > :52:53.2008. Six years on and after millions of pounds of Scottish
:52:54. > :52:56.Government and private sector investment, are they working? Some
:52:57. > :52:59.traders say the rewards are obvious while others resent the additional
:53:00. > :53:07.levies on their businesses. Megan Paterson reports. Chasing trains,
:53:08. > :53:15.not haggis, is the tag line for this form. -- firm. I have looked round
:53:16. > :53:23.all the other high street and Dunfermline was the option. As a wad
:53:24. > :53:27.of investment. Other high streets are dying of weird as Dunfermline
:53:28. > :53:37.are putting any lot more money. -- dying off. Melissa opened her second
:53:38. > :53:42.shop year after starting in Dundee. Compare to Dundee, where I had no
:53:43. > :53:47.help, I have received a ?5,000 plant extend the business further round
:53:48. > :53:56.the back. We now have an installed beauty parlour, and a make-up artist
:53:57. > :53:59.as well. The local business improvement district was set up
:54:00. > :54:06.after able to on local businesses five years ago. It now faces a
:54:07. > :54:11.renewal ballot. The team behind it is convinced that still has a role
:54:12. > :54:21.to play. We have made a lot of inroads. First with Aberdeen and
:54:22. > :54:27.other towns. We want to grow and increase the festivals that we do,
:54:28. > :54:32.to bring more people to the towns. The economic climate that they were
:54:33. > :54:38.born into, you need more time to cement all of the work that has
:54:39. > :54:42.started. Business Improvement Districts have been working in
:54:43. > :54:46.Scotland since 2008. 23 are around the country. They are voted in by
:54:47. > :54:57.local businesses. They have created 52 jobs. They have benefited from
:54:58. > :55:00.?17.8 million of private investment. Businesses in these areas pay an
:55:01. > :55:05.extra levy on their rates to help fund investment. Those feeling
:55:06. > :55:10.across the country. So do opinion on success. Some traders here in
:55:11. > :55:20.Clarkston are questioning the benefits. It confuses me. The ?900
:55:21. > :55:23.at reappearing, some of the ideas the committee are coming up with, I
:55:24. > :55:29.thought the council would cover that. Hanging baskets... I thought
:55:30. > :55:35.those were things the local government recover. It seems to be
:55:36. > :55:41.that we are being punished. -- would cover. But East Renfrewshire council
:55:42. > :55:47.says it has been a stew with careful to ensure that the levy isn't used
:55:48. > :55:51.for these services. The bed has helped shop fronts and local events.
:55:52. > :55:57.Clarkston will hold a renewal ballot next year. So far, all six of the
:55:58. > :56:03.original bids have chosen to extend. That is viewed by some as a signal
:56:04. > :56:10.of success. There is a desire to have this investment. To bring the
:56:11. > :56:13.benefits into local businesses. That is a communication rule forbids
:56:14. > :56:17.within that, to ensure that they do tell both consumers traders and
:56:18. > :56:25.others what is occurring and we are the benefits happen.
:56:26. > :56:27.others what is occurring and we are many of them will be renewed. So
:56:28. > :56:32.they are as great as the towns they seek to improve. Forecasting that
:56:33. > :56:41.many more teams will be in place by 2020 saw more of a variety is
:56:42. > :56:44.guaranteed. I'm joined now by the minister for
:56:45. > :56:49.local government and planning, Derek Mackay, and by the architect Malcolm
:56:50. > :56:55.Fraser. Derek... Have these Business Improvement Districts been a
:56:56. > :56:57.success? I think they have. Something is not without minor
:56:58. > :57:04.controversy but they are on the whole they have added to vibrancy.
:57:05. > :57:08.They have given extra to help deliver regeneration. We have 24 in
:57:09. > :57:11.place. The l'amour and development at the moment and I wouldn't cut it
:57:12. > :57:22.was to come forward and villages as well. How do you measure success
:57:23. > :57:26.when it comes to this? They all do different things. Some are about
:57:27. > :57:33.environmental improvement. Someone about promotion and others the
:57:34. > :57:37.night-time economy. Someone about building the cover projects together
:57:38. > :57:42.so they are very diverse and what they do. You can measure success by
:57:43. > :57:48.what they say they will do. Are they taking on work that some of the
:57:49. > :57:53.councils would do? We had a completely the money is spent on
:57:54. > :57:57.flower and Christmas lights. You would expect the local authority to
:57:58. > :58:03.pay for that? It should be additionality. It should not be
:58:04. > :58:11.replacing that, which the council should be doing. It should be the
:58:12. > :58:14.added extra. It should be a case of trying to rejuvenate our town
:58:15. > :58:20.centres. The council should not walk away from their responsibilities but
:58:21. > :58:27.adding to it. Is this the right way to rejuvenate our town centres? We
:58:28. > :58:36.need to be considering, the optic and the renewal. -- uptake. I think
:58:37. > :58:42.this is a really interesting way for local communities, business
:58:43. > :58:48.communities, to come forward. They have a stake in neighbourhoods. I
:58:49. > :58:53.wonder what all the renewal of the beds themselves as a measure of
:58:54. > :58:56.success? Some people might feel as though that there's nothing much
:58:57. > :59:01.more they can do other than apply for this money that is being
:59:02. > :59:08.offered? I don't have a problem with that. Businesses are taking more
:59:09. > :59:13.responsibility and we need to see local community groups take over
:59:14. > :59:19.property and start clubs, businesses. We need local government
:59:20. > :59:25.to be taking more responsibility for the health of their communities.
:59:26. > :59:31.Moving schools out, moving libraries out of town... We need everybody to
:59:32. > :59:37.take that civic responsibility. It sits alongside central government
:59:38. > :59:44.responsibility. We need more communities in Scotland to be caring
:59:45. > :59:55.about the place the island. -- they place they are in. Maybe the
:59:56. > :00:01.premises that are being lying empty meet for different purposes? We have
:00:02. > :00:06.different purposes. They are changing some of the uses. They have
:00:07. > :00:10.very specific projects to demonstrate what we can do. Other
:00:11. > :00:14.planes and towns will have to change. It was just retail before
:00:15. > :00:22.but the world has changed with digital technology. Towns will
:00:23. > :00:27.change and a jazz we go forward. Is it easy for town centres to make the
:00:28. > :00:38.kind of change that you talking about? Sometimes the field of view
:00:39. > :00:45.of bureaucracy can get in the way. They can tighten up and certain
:00:46. > :00:52.other areas. -- in certain other areas. I think these rates changes
:00:53. > :00:59.are very welcome. We propose a father power for local authorities
:01:00. > :01:02.to create even more local release teams so that began father
:01:03. > :01:12.incentivise people to open up more properties. What is your view about
:01:13. > :01:15.how we use town centres? Shopping is obviously popular and people lament
:01:16. > :01:20.the fact that they are not as they used to be, do we need a change of
:01:21. > :01:29.use? You do not find the local shops, art galleries, different
:01:30. > :01:38.things do they neatest thing up? -- need to spring up? No matter how
:01:39. > :01:42.many places where you have out-of-town shopping complexes, the
:01:43. > :01:49.no parts, places to walk and meet people and discuss things. Town
:01:50. > :01:52.centres do. We should stop being pessimistic and start being far more
:01:53. > :01:58.optimistic about how they are places of the future. We're going to see
:01:59. > :02:07.those sort of dismal places that you can only get two with cars, those
:02:08. > :02:14.other places of the past. -- are the places. We need to be more open to
:02:15. > :02:19.those changes. Is there not a danger that that vibrancy you talk about
:02:20. > :02:25.has been lost? People want at the high street at the moment and think
:02:26. > :02:28.they are not particularly vibrant? 20 years ago I moved into an office
:02:29. > :02:37.in old town of Edinburgh and the place was dead. Nothing happening.
:02:38. > :02:40.Now the local businesses complain about the rates but that is because
:02:41. > :02:48.it is an extremely attractive place to be. National headquarters want to
:02:49. > :02:52.be the and national businesses. Edinburgh has a huge amount of
:02:53. > :02:56.attractions. More than anywhere else, but everywhere has a community
:02:57. > :03:02.and historic buildings. We need to be far more aware that change
:03:03. > :03:08.happens. Edinburgh has changed beyond recognition. For some people
:03:09. > :03:13.that might look as if it is changing slowly? Not many town centres are
:03:14. > :03:20.like Edinburgh. The shops boarded up for years. It is a mix across the
:03:21. > :03:25.country. Some towns have been a real success. In Kilmarnock, where I
:03:26. > :03:32.launched the government response, the high street was 100% occupied.
:03:33. > :03:38.Much lies behind that. I would like that to happen across the country.
:03:39. > :03:42.Success will only be delivered on the ground if we have local people
:03:43. > :03:48.picking up the tools to do the job. There is no question that people
:03:49. > :03:53.want their towns and cities to succeed. We have to work together.
:03:54. > :04:06.The puppets maybe has change of what went on before. Money is important.
:04:07. > :04:15.It is. The beauty of business improvement districts is that the
:04:16. > :04:23.lady is local but it can be supplemented by... That unlock some
:04:24. > :04:27.of the potential. That is not just about money, but resources are part
:04:28. > :04:32.of that as well. There is a mix to help deliver a new face for town
:04:33. > :04:40.centres across the country. Thank you for joining us. Let's cross for
:04:41. > :04:42.the news. You're watching Sunday Politics
:04:43. > :04:45.Scotland. Let's cross now for the news with Andrew Kerr.
:04:46. > :04:48.Good afternoon. The Sunday Herald has become the first newspaper to
:04:49. > :04:51.back a Yes vote in the independence referendum. The front page states
:04:52. > :04:54."Sunday Herald says Yes". The accompanying graphics are designed
:04:55. > :04:57.by the artist and writer Alasdair Gray. The editorial lays out the
:04:58. > :05:00.reasons for their support but says reporting will remain balanced.
:05:01. > :05:04.A man's been arrested in connection with the death of a forty year old
:05:05. > :05:06.man in Glasgow yesterday. The forty-year old died following an
:05:07. > :05:11.incident at Springburn Shopping Centre. A 29-year old man is due to
:05:12. > :05:14.appear in court on Tuesday. The benefits of a good quality
:05:15. > :05:19.nursery education can last into secondary school, according to new
:05:20. > :05:21.research. The Scottish Government paper says children with no
:05:22. > :05:27.pre-school attendance aren't as sociable, don't concentrate as well
:05:28. > :05:31.and have poorer thinking processes. The number of hours three and four
:05:32. > :05:34.year olds are entitled to go to nursery for free increases in
:05:35. > :05:38.August. More than 14,000 women and children
:05:39. > :05:41.are taking part in the Race for Life in Glasgow this lunchtime. The X
:05:42. > :05:48.Factor winner Alexandra Burke started the annual 5K run, which is
:05:49. > :05:51.in aid of a cancer charity. They set off from the Green and made their
:05:52. > :05:53.way around the city centre. Now a look at the weather forecast,
:05:54. > :06:05.here's Judith. Good afternoon. I think it's
:06:06. > :06:11.noticeably milder today. This afternoon, it is fairly damp,
:06:12. > :06:16.especially across western Scotland. Also running across the northern
:06:17. > :06:19.isles as well. Percent sure and Easter in Scotland it will remain
:06:20. > :06:27.dry with some brightness coming through the clouds. -- for central
:06:28. > :06:29.and eastern Scotland. Quite breezy across the northern isles. That's
:06:30. > :06:39.it. Thanks Andrew. Now in a moment,
:06:40. > :06:43.we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week, but first,
:06:44. > :06:47.let's take a look back at the week in sixty seconds... Now it's time to
:06:48. > :06:51.have a look at the Sunday papers and what's happening in the week ahead.
:06:52. > :06:54.I'm joined here in the studio by Ian Smart, lawyer and blogger, and by
:06:55. > :06:56.Kate Higgins, who writes the Burdz Eye View blog.
:06:57. > :07:00.Good afternoon. Let's start with the Sunday papers. The Sunday Herald has
:07:01. > :07:07.declared its support for the Yes vote in the referendum. Is this a
:07:08. > :07:12.game changer? I don't think it's a game changer
:07:13. > :07:16.but it is a really important signal. There is only one direction that
:07:17. > :07:21.this debate can go and that is toward yes. I think you have to
:07:22. > :07:26.admire the Sunday Herald's honesty in coming out with a clear editorial
:07:27. > :07:32.position. The message is there for other newspapers to follow suit.
:07:33. > :07:36.People who claim not to, or organisations which claim not to
:07:37. > :07:42.have an editorial position, and yet the evidence appears quite
:07:43. > :07:46.different. It is a welcome move. Everyone supporting a Yes vote will
:07:47. > :07:51.welcome it. Do you anticipate that other
:07:52. > :07:55.newspapers may follow suit? The Sunday Herald has supported the SNP
:07:56. > :08:01.at the last two elections so it is perhaps not a surprise will stop the
:08:02. > :08:08.interesting thing about the Sunday Herald is that it is the first paper
:08:09. > :08:11.to declare for either side. The paper that people are really
:08:12. > :08:26.interested in is what the Sun is going to do. The Sun is a great
:08:27. > :08:30.unknown. Do you believe that newspapers will
:08:31. > :08:40.actually influence how people vote? I have my vote -- I have my doubts.
:08:41. > :08:48.Circulation of the Sunday Herald is less than small local newspapers. I
:08:49. > :08:56.don't think people will make up their minds based purely on what
:08:57. > :09:02.this newspaper says. The Sunday Times has been talking to
:09:03. > :09:06.David Trimble, former First Minister of Northern Ireland. He has been
:09:07. > :09:10.talking about what a Yes vote might mean across the Irish Sea. He talks
:09:11. > :09:15.about the ghost of increased violence in the province. Some would
:09:16. > :09:21.say that a Yes vote is a reason to pursue change through the democratic
:09:22. > :09:27.process. The ripples from Scotland could spread far and wide.
:09:28. > :09:30.Absolutely. That is why the world is watching and taking a keen interest
:09:31. > :09:37.in what is happening in Holland. I feel for David Trimble. I listened
:09:38. > :09:41.to this interview yesterday morning. He was keen to point out to the BBC
:09:42. > :09:45.in Scotland that they had misinformed people with their online
:09:46. > :09:51.headline. He was not talking about a Yes vote is stirring up trouble for
:09:52. > :09:55.the peace process. But that it might have consequences for the political
:09:56. > :09:59.process. I am sad to say that that's misleading headline is still in
:10:00. > :10:07.evidence on BBC Scotland online this morning. What he actually said was,
:10:08. > :10:11.yes, that he could see - and this is a man who knows how important words
:10:12. > :10:17.are in late political process that he could see how a Yes vote might
:10:18. > :10:21.influence things one way or another. He also said that if Scotland vote
:10:22. > :10:26.yes in September, it would be the first ever occasion of a peaceful
:10:27. > :10:31.democratic vote for independence. That also might influence how
:10:32. > :10:36.politics is taken forward in Ireland.
:10:37. > :10:41.In the Sunday Times, he says he thinks there would need to be a
:10:42. > :10:46.referendum to settle this issue in Northern Ireland. The issue of a
:10:47. > :10:49.united Ireland. But we know what the outcome of a
:10:50. > :10:54.referendum in Northern Ireland would be. At one point there was a
:10:55. > :11:00.suggestion that the Republicans might out breach the Protestants,
:11:01. > :11:03.but we are living in a modern age. It is almost inconceivable that
:11:04. > :11:09.Northern Ireland would vote to join the Republican any circumstances.
:11:10. > :11:12.For goods or ill. David Cameron is signalling that he
:11:13. > :11:19.might get involved in a debate ahead of the lack -- ahead of the election
:11:20. > :11:24.that would involve Nigel Farage. There are many caveats to his
:11:25. > :11:33.acceptance, including the inclusion of others in the debates.
:11:34. > :11:37.I think there are two points about how much the media are prepared to
:11:38. > :11:50.put wind into Friarage and UK's sales. They are a political
:11:51. > :11:55.relevance here in Scotland is, but. They have ruled nothing in and
:11:56. > :11:59.nothing out, unlike the position with regard to debating Prime
:12:00. > :12:04.Minister against First Minister. They have ruled that out and it
:12:05. > :12:09.suggests that David Cameron worries more about his own political careers
:12:10. > :12:13.in the future of Scotland. Ed Miliband said this morning that
:12:14. > :12:18.he would be happy to be involved in a debate with Nigel Farage, but said
:12:19. > :12:22.that he thought it was up to the broadcasters to decide who was
:12:23. > :12:30.invited. Does this place David Cameron in a difficult position?
:12:31. > :12:36.The argument is that the referendum is a decision for people who live in
:12:37. > :12:41.Scotland. I have said from the start that Alex Salmond has painted
:12:42. > :12:47.himself into a corner. If we get into the closing stages of the
:12:48. > :12:52.referendum, if he chooses to sulk and not come out and debates, he
:12:53. > :13:01.will just look scared. He has made his point that David Cameron should
:13:02. > :13:03.debate with him and he is not taking the bait. At some point you will
:13:04. > :13:09.have to give up. How much is this general election
:13:10. > :13:14.can't paint overshadowed by the referendum?
:13:15. > :13:21.I think it is overshadowed in terms of who
:13:22. > :13:25.I think it is overshadowed in terms for. It is also pivotal
:13:26. > :13:28.I think it is overshadowed in terms SNP's position is for
:13:29. > :13:30.I think it is overshadowed in terms within Europe. People want to
:13:31. > :13:35.consider all the issues when they come to choose how to vote. It is
:13:36. > :13:40.going to be a fascinating election, particularly for people like us, to
:13:41. > :13:46.see who takes that vital sixth place, weather or not you can does
:13:47. > :13:50.make headway in Scotland. And weather Lib Dems do lose out.
:13:51. > :13:54.Thank you both very much for joining us. That's all from us this week.
:13:55. > :13:55.We're back at the slightly earlier time of 11.30am next week. Until
:13:56. > :14:01.then, goodbye.