:00:36. > :00:40.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, where we're talking about
:00:41. > :00:47.the Europe-wide contest that really matters. No not Eurovision. The
:00:48. > :00:50.European elections. There are local elections across England too on May
:00:51. > :00:54.22nd. The party leaders are campaigning ahead of polling day.
:00:55. > :01:00.The results could be a pointer to the Big One May 2015. We'll be
:01:01. > :01:04.speaking to the man in charge of Labour's election battle plan. Has
:01:05. > :01:09.the opposition really got its sights set on all-out victory in 2015? Or
:01:10. > :01:12.will it just be content with squeaking home? And you can't
:01:13. > :01:17.mention elections these days without talking about the impact of this
:01:18. > :01:22.man, Nigel Farage. I'll be asking him if UKIP really is fit for
:01:23. > :01:24.primetime. Coming up on Sunday Politics
:01:25. > :01:27.Scotland: As Westminster and Holyrood do battle over Scottish
:01:28. > :01:30.independence are Civil servants - who have long prided themselves on
:01:31. > :01:40.their neutrality - being drawn into the fray?
:01:41. > :01:45.guaranteed to bring a touch of Eurovision glamour to your Sunday
:01:46. > :01:47.morning. With views more controversial than a bearded
:01:48. > :01:57.Austrian drag act and twice the dress sense, it's Nick Watt, Helen
:01:58. > :02:00.Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So you might have thought you've already heard
:02:01. > :02:04.David Cameron promise an in-out referendum on EU membership in 2017
:02:05. > :02:09.if he's still Prime Minister. Many times. Many, many times. Well he
:02:10. > :02:12.obviously doesn't think you've been listening, because he's been saying
:02:13. > :02:17.it again today. Here he is speaking to the BBC earlier. We will hold a
:02:18. > :02:21.referendum by the end of 2017. It will be a referendum on an in-out
:02:22. > :02:25.basis. Do we stay in a reformed European Union or do we leave? And
:02:26. > :02:28.I've said very clearly that whatever the outcome of the next election,
:02:29. > :02:30.and of course I want an overall majority and I'm hoping and
:02:31. > :02:34.believing I can win an overall majority, that people should be in
:02:35. > :02:43.no doubt I will not become Prime Minister unless I can guarantee that
:02:44. > :02:48.we will hold a referendum. Here's saying there that an overall
:02:49. > :02:52.majority there will definitely be a referendum. If these are the
:02:53. > :02:57.minority position, he won't form a new coalition unless they agree to a
:02:58. > :03:00.referendum, too. The Lib Dems a pulmonary agree to that. They
:03:01. > :03:04.probably will because the Prime ministers have a strong argument
:03:05. > :03:07.which is I gave you a referendum back in 2010 so the least I need is
:03:08. > :03:12.theirs and the Lib Dems are the only party who have stood in recent
:03:13. > :03:15.elections on a clear mandate to hold a referendum, so it is difficult for
:03:16. > :03:19.them to say no, there was interesting the interview he did
:03:20. > :03:23.earlier today. He named everything was going to ask for. The most
:03:24. > :03:28.controversial with him, as he said in his speech last year, he wants to
:03:29. > :03:33.take Britain out of the commitment to make the European Union and ever
:03:34. > :03:37.closer union. That is a very big ask, but the point is, he may well
:03:38. > :03:41.get it because the choice for the European Union now, France and
:03:42. > :03:46.Germany, is a clear wonderful do Britain in or out? Previously, it
:03:47. > :03:50.was can you put up with a British prime ministers being annoying? I
:03:51. > :03:55.think you'll find the answer is they are willing to pay a price but not
:03:56. > :03:58.any price to keep Britain in. In this scenario, Labour would have
:03:59. > :04:04.lost the election again because we are talking the slowly happen if Mr
:04:05. > :04:08.Cameron is the largest party or has an overall majority. Could you then
:04:09. > :04:13.see Labour deciding we had better go along with a referendum, too? I
:04:14. > :04:15.think that's unlikely because as I think that's unlikely because
:04:16. > :04:17.there's a huge upside for that for I think what's interesting is the idea
:04:18. > :04:22.he would for minority government. Would you get confidence and look at
:04:23. > :04:26.other options that might well happen with the way the arithmetic is going
:04:27. > :04:29.or is he going to hold out and say the only way I will be Prime
:04:30. > :04:34.Minister is in a majority Conservative government? No, the
:04:35. > :04:38.implication of his remarks was I wouldn't form a coalition government
:04:39. > :04:42.unless my coalition partners would also agree to vote for a referendum.
:04:43. > :04:47.He's basically talking about is negotiating strategy in those
:04:48. > :04:51.coalition talks. It's a red line and a huge opportunity for the Lib Dems,
:04:52. > :04:56.because they know David Cameron absolutely has to do, for accidental
:04:57. > :05:00.reasons, as a person who survives as Tory leader, to ask for that
:05:01. > :05:04.referendum, so they can ask anything they want in return and if I was
:05:05. > :05:07.Nick Clegg, I would work out in the next year one absolute colossal
:05:08. > :05:14.negotiating demand for those coalition talks. For a party around
:05:15. > :05:17.10% in the polls, they will do have the Prime Minister over a barrel on
:05:18. > :05:29.this one, assuming that coalition talks goes well. They could make
:05:30. > :05:32.Michael Gove Tbyte meeting. OK, we need to move on. So, the politicians
:05:33. > :05:36.are out and about on what used to be called the stump ahead of local and
:05:37. > :05:39.European elections in less than two weeks' time. But, without wanting to
:05:40. > :05:41.depress you on a damp Sunday morning, the party strategists are
:05:42. > :05:44.already hard at work on their campaign plans for the General
:05:45. > :05:47.Election next May. Yes, it's less than a year to go. They may have
:05:48. > :05:50.taken their time, but Labour's battleplan for 2015 is starting to
:05:51. > :05:53.take shape. As well as take promising to freeze your energy
:05:54. > :05:56.bills, and reintroduce the 50p rate of tax, Ed Miliband now says he
:05:57. > :06:01.wants to intervene in the housing market to keep rents down. There's
:06:02. > :06:07.even talk that the party leadership wants to bring more railway lines
:06:08. > :06:11.into public ownership. And Labour is gambling that its big push on the
:06:12. > :06:14.cost of living will see it through to the general election despite
:06:15. > :06:17.evidence that growth is firmly back. Labour's campaign chief Douglas
:06:18. > :06:25.Alexander hopes it all adds up to victory next May. But so far, the
:06:26. > :06:28.evidence is hitting home very thin. One survey today shows that 56% of
:06:29. > :06:33.people don't think Mr Miliband is up to the job of Prime Minister. As we
:06:34. > :06:36.head towards one of the least predictable general elections in 70
:06:37. > :06:41.years, has Labour got a message to win seats up and down the country?
:06:42. > :06:48.And Labour's election co-ordinator and Shadow Foreign Secretary,
:06:49. > :06:52.Douglas Alexander, joins me now. Welcome to Sunday Politics. A lot of
:06:53. > :06:56.these policies announced polar pretty well. By popular with the
:06:57. > :07:02.country. When you add them together, it's a move to the left and what
:07:03. > :07:04.would be wrong with that? I think is your packet suggests, the contours
:07:05. > :07:10.in the coming campaign are becoming clear. Our judgement is the defining
:07:11. > :07:13.issue of the year in British politics will be the widening gap
:07:14. > :07:17.between the wealth of the country and the finances of ordinary
:07:18. > :07:20.families. We believe it will be a cost of living election and we have
:07:21. > :07:24.been setting out our thinking in relation to energy prices and rent,
:07:25. > :07:27.but you will hear more from Labour Party in the coming months because
:07:28. > :07:32.we're now less than one year away from a decisive moment. If the
:07:33. > :07:36.leftish think tank suggested any of his policies in that Tony Blair
:07:37. > :07:43.years, you would have opposed them. Let's be clear, when not going for
:07:44. > :07:46.an interest but seeking to secure a majority for the only way to do that
:07:47. > :07:49.is not simply to appeal to your base, but to the centre ground. I
:07:50. > :07:54.believe we got genuine opportunities in the next year. You have the
:07:55. > :07:59.Conservatives in a struggle with UKIP on the right of politics. The
:08:00. > :08:02.Lib Dems 9% of trying to find their base, and there's a genuine
:08:03. > :08:07.opportunity in the next year for Labour to dominate the centre ground
:08:08. > :08:11.of politics and secure the majority Labour government we are planning
:08:12. > :08:22.for in the coming year. I notice you didn't deny you wouldn't have
:08:23. > :08:25.opposed. You say you have got an message for aspirational voters in
:08:26. > :08:28.the South. This is what John Denham said. He thinks you're talking too
:08:29. > :08:45.much to your core vote. He is right to recognise we took a
:08:46. > :08:48.terrible beating in 2010. 29%. If you look at what we've done in the
:08:49. > :08:53.last week, for example, the signature policy on rent Ed Miliband
:08:54. > :08:57.announced to launch the campaign, there's now more than 9 million
:08:58. > :09:01.people in the country in the private rented sector, more than 1 million
:09:02. > :09:04.families. Many of them are in the south-east. They are seeing
:09:05. > :09:09.circumstances where, suddenly, landlord will increase the rent and
:09:10. > :09:13.they put the pressure involved in schooling, health care facing the
:09:14. > :09:16.families, so it is important both in terms of policy and in terms of
:09:17. > :09:20.politics that we speak to the whole country, not simply to one part of
:09:21. > :09:28.it falls up what is the average rise in event last year? I don't know.
:09:29. > :09:35.Can you tell me? 1%. 1% not in real terms. I'm not sure what the problem
:09:36. > :09:39.is. It will happen to wages in last year, we are facing circumstances
:09:40. > :09:46.where people will be worse off, up to ?1600 off worse and frankly, if
:09:47. > :09:51.our opponents want to argue that the economy has healed and they deserve
:09:52. > :09:55.a victory lap, good luck to them because actually, what we are
:09:56. > :09:59.hearing from the Buddhist public, not just in the north and south, is
:10:00. > :10:02.not the cost living crisis is continuing and it affects families.
:10:03. > :10:07.There was nothing aspirational about your party election broadcast for
:10:08. > :10:11.the European elections. It looked like crude class war to money
:10:12. > :10:15.people. That's a bit of it. Bedroom tax. Isn't it going to look bad that
:10:16. > :10:21.two thirds of those affected are disabled? Who cares? They can't
:10:22. > :10:29.fight back. Shall be lay-offs and NHS nurses? The National Health
:10:30. > :10:39.Service? Oh yes. Mr Cameron? Who said that? Me. My gosh. The man has
:10:40. > :10:44.shrunk. He's actually shrunk. What shall we do with him? Can we hunt
:10:45. > :10:51.him? Nothing about Europe, Labour policy. News that the Tories would
:10:52. > :10:56.result in negative campaigning and smear. You didn't tell you would be
:10:57. > :11:00.just as bad. Let's start the party broadcast. The one thing guaranteed
:11:01. > :11:06.to have most people reaching for the remote control these days are the
:11:07. > :11:10.words, there now follows a party but the broadcast. I make no apology in
:11:11. > :11:15.the factory to be innovative in how we presented. It's factual. It was a
:11:16. > :11:19.policy -based critic of this government. And the Lib Dems role
:11:20. > :11:24.within it. So you're claiming it's factual to betray the camera and
:11:25. > :11:31.cabinet is not even knowing what the NHS is, -- the Cameron Cabinet. They
:11:32. > :11:36.attack the disabled because they can't fight back. The Pinellas
:11:37. > :11:43.Tanner severely Prime Minister Sun and he was treated during a short
:11:44. > :11:47.life by the NHS. It's a fact many disabled people across the country
:11:48. > :11:51.including in my constituency have been directly affected by the
:11:52. > :11:54.bedroom tax. And ultimately, this Conservative led government,
:11:55. > :12:00.including the Lib Dems, will be held accountable by the politicians. You
:12:01. > :12:04.say that, the Prime Minister, who had a severely disabled son of. I
:12:05. > :12:10.you not ashamed about? I shadowed Iain Duncan Smith of five months
:12:11. > :12:14.also they don't have the excuses of seeing that saying nobody told them
:12:15. > :12:17.the consequences of the bedroom tax. They went into this with their eyes
:12:18. > :12:21.open. They knew about the hardship and difficulty. If they were
:12:22. > :12:24.one-bedroom properties available across the country for people to
:12:25. > :12:31.move into, their argument would be OK but they knew they were dealing
:12:32. > :12:34.with the most vulnerable people. Did you sign off that part of the
:12:35. > :12:40.broadcast? Of course I stand by the fact of it. I wish David Cameron and
:12:41. > :12:43.Iain Duncan Smith would apologise to the disabled people of the country
:12:44. > :12:47.and the poorest people for the effects of the bedroom tax. I hope
:12:48. > :12:53.we get that apology between now and election. As someone who thinks
:12:54. > :12:59.integrity is important in politics, not ashamed of this kind of thing?
:13:00. > :13:01.It's important we scrutinise the policies of this government as well
:13:02. > :13:08.as adding a positive agenda for change. You want that you won't
:13:09. > :13:13.promise this is the last time we'll see such a negative press campaign?
:13:14. > :13:16.I don't think it is negative or personal to scrutinise the
:13:17. > :13:20.government. So we'll get more of this? I'm less interested in the
:13:21. > :13:26.background of the cabinet than their views. You call the upper-class
:13:27. > :13:30.twits. It's for the British public to make a judgement in terms of the
:13:31. > :13:37.British... That's how you depicted them. We are held in accountable for
:13:38. > :13:42.the bedroom tax, the NHS, taxation, and our record they have to defend.
:13:43. > :13:46.One reason are so fearful in this election is actually because they
:13:47. > :13:51.know they have a poor record. Let's look at other part of the election
:13:52. > :13:56.campaign. This poster. Particularly digitally doing the rounds. On that
:13:57. > :14:03.shopping basket, can you tell us which items take the full 20% VAT?
:14:04. > :14:07.It's representative of household shopping, which includes items like
:14:08. > :14:19.cleaning products, and we know that food is not that trouble. People
:14:20. > :14:26.don't go to the supermarket and say this is -- vatable. So you are
:14:27. > :14:34.denying that ?450 extra is being paid? Yes, where'd you get that
:14:35. > :14:42.figure? For an average family to pay ?450 a year extra VAT, they would
:14:43. > :14:48.have to spend ?21,600 a year on vatable products at 20%. The average
:14:49. > :14:52.take-home pay is only 21,009. They have got to spend on all sorts of
:14:53. > :14:56.things which are zero VAT. So in addition to the items, has a range
:14:57. > :15:02.of products people face in terms of VAT. How could an average family of
:15:03. > :15:11.?21,000 a year spent 21,006 and the pound a year on 20% vatable items?
:15:12. > :15:20.It's not an annual figure, is it? So what is it then? If it's an annual,
:15:21. > :15:23.what is it? The increased VAT in this parliament is calculated over
:15:24. > :15:31.the course of a Parliament. For the whole of the Parliament? And you're
:15:32. > :15:36.illustrated this with a shopping basket which almost has no VAT on it
:15:37. > :15:40.at all? People will be buying a weekly shop in the course of this
:15:41. > :15:45.Parliament every week. Did you sign off on this as well? Of course. It
:15:46. > :15:49.didn't dawn on you you're putting things on it which have no VAT? If
:15:50. > :15:52.you want to argue some people go to the shops and say these are vatable
:15:53. > :16:01.or not, I disagree. Even your rent or not, I disagree. Even your rent
:16:02. > :16:04.cap announcement went wrong. You're working on the rent rises and it
:16:05. > :16:12.turns out it wasn't. It was a post your policy. It is the exception
:16:13. > :16:16.rather than the rule to have the your policy. It is the exception
:16:17. > :16:20.position we have at the moment. In Northern Ireland we have seen the
:16:21. > :16:23.continued rise in terms of the rented sector but there is a
:16:24. > :16:31.widespread recognition that for those people in the rented sector,
:16:32. > :16:38.change is necessary. Are you coordinating this campaign? It seems
:16:39. > :16:47.accident prone. This is a party that has set the agenda more effectively
:16:48. > :16:50.than a Conservative party that said when David Cameron was elected he
:16:51. > :16:59.wasn't going to bang on about Europe. The day after the election
:17:00. > :17:05.we expect the Conservative party to be engulfed in crisis. I'm proud of
:17:06. > :17:09.what we talk about and I think there is a clear contrast about a party
:17:10. > :17:14.talking about issues people care about, and a Conservative party
:17:15. > :17:21.talking about exclusively a referendum. Are you in charge of the
:17:22. > :17:27.campaign? I am coordinating the campaign is, yes. The expensive
:17:28. > :17:32.election guru you have hired, has he been involved in any of this? We
:17:33. > :17:36.have started our discussions with him. You are going to have to brief
:17:37. > :17:44.him about British politics because he doesn't know anything about it. I
:17:45. > :17:49.make no apology for hiring him. He has a lot of experience in winning
:17:50. > :17:55.tight elections and that is what we are expecting. If you are expecting
:17:56. > :18:02.us to say, they have passed and we have to hold them accountable, then
:18:03. > :18:06.I am sorry but we have a campaign that holds the Government and the
:18:07. > :18:17.Conservatives to account for what I think is a very hopeless record in
:18:18. > :18:20.government. Thank you. He leads a party with zero MPs but
:18:21. > :18:23.his media presence is huge. He's had an expenses scandal, but the public
:18:24. > :18:26.didn't seem to mind. He's got a privileged background but he's seen
:18:27. > :18:29.as an anti-establishment champion. Nothing seems to stick to him, not
:18:30. > :18:33.even eggs. I speak of course of Nigel Farage. We'll talk to him in a
:18:34. > :18:36.moment, but first Giles has been out on the campaign trail ahead of
:18:37. > :18:38.elections that could make or break the UKIP leader.
:18:39. > :18:41.Nigel Farage likes a stage, and at this stage of the Euro and local
:18:42. > :18:46.election campaign he is, like his party, in buoyant mood. They feel
:18:47. > :18:52.they are on the verge of what they see as causing an earthquake in
:18:53. > :18:56.British politics. Today Nigel is filling thousands seat venues and
:18:57. > :19:04.bigger. Not that there's much sign of that at this press launch. But
:19:05. > :19:07.it's a threat with serious money behind it, that they believe the
:19:08. > :19:10.media and the political elite just haven't realised yet, much less
:19:11. > :19:12.learned how to counter it. Not that it's all been plain sailing.
:19:13. > :19:15.Offensive comments from some candidates has not only seen UKIP
:19:16. > :19:22.labelled as racist, but necessitated a rally by the party to visibly and
:19:23. > :19:25.verbally challenge that. The offensive idiotic statements made by
:19:26. > :19:29.this handful of people have been lifted up and presented to the great
:19:30. > :19:35.British public as if they represent the view of this party, which they
:19:36. > :19:46.do not. They never have and they never will. APPLAUSE
:19:47. > :19:55.I don't care what you call us, but from this moment on, please do not
:19:56. > :20:04.call must trust a racist party. We are not a racist party.
:20:05. > :20:06.The need to say that is not just about the European and local
:20:07. > :20:09.elections even at that campaign launch it's clear UKIP's leader has
:20:10. > :20:12.set his sights firmly on the ultimate prize. I come from the
:20:13. > :20:16.south of England and I would not want to be seen as an opportunist
:20:17. > :20:20.heading to the north, north Norfolk or whatever it will be. I will make
:20:21. > :20:26.my mind up and stand in the general election for somewhere in Kent, East
:20:27. > :20:30.Sussex, Hampshire, somewhere in my home patch. Back at UKIP HQ they are
:20:31. > :20:40.still drilling down how the last fortnight of campaigning should go.
:20:41. > :20:43.They aren't taking any chances, and one imagines having offices above
:20:44. > :20:46.those of Max Clifford is a reminder how fragile built reputations can be
:20:47. > :20:49.of the bubble bursting. They want their reputation to be built on
:20:50. > :20:52.votes and they know anything but significant success on May 22nd and
:20:53. > :21:00.some seats in Westminster in 2015 isn't going to be good enough. And
:21:01. > :21:03.after that, having sold yourselves as the honest outsiders, that stance
:21:04. > :21:06.is harder to maintain once your people are on the inside. And subtle
:21:07. > :21:12.changes from the past are already noticeable. The ordinary man of the
:21:13. > :21:15.people stance is still working. Characteristically outside a pub,
:21:16. > :21:21.Nigel Farage is glad handed by a customer. Two weeks to go, let's
:21:22. > :21:27.cause an upset. Wouldn't that be great? The only sign that such an
:21:28. > :21:38.interaction is different now is the ever presence of bodyguards who
:21:39. > :21:41.shadow his every move. Over lunch ahead of Question Time, a radio
:21:42. > :21:46.appearance, and then off to Scotland, I ask him if some of those
:21:47. > :21:49.minded to vote UKIP who see him as a man they'd be comfortable having a
:21:50. > :21:51.drink with are the sort of people he'd be entirely comfortable sitting
:21:52. > :21:53.down with. Every political party attracts support from across the
:21:54. > :22:02.spectrum and there will be some magnificent people who vote for us
:22:03. > :22:07.and some ne'er-do-wells. The one common thing about UKIP voters is
:22:08. > :22:11.that they are often not very political. And it's that people's
:22:12. > :22:13.army that if UKIP can get to a polling booth might just create that
:22:14. > :22:21.earthquake they want. Nigel Farage joins me now. When you
:22:22. > :22:24.decided not to stand at the new work by election coming said if you lost
:22:25. > :22:44.it that the bubble would have burst. What did you mean by that? I
:22:45. > :22:50.was asked at seven 20p -- at 7:21pm if I would stand, I have decided by
:22:51. > :22:57.the next morning that I would not. I didn't know he was going to resign.
:22:58. > :23:00.You claim only a handful of UKIP candidates have ever said things
:23:01. > :23:09.that are either stupid or offensive, I'm right on that, yes? 0.1%, I'd
:23:10. > :23:12.rather it was non-. But why have you chosen a candidate to fight this
:23:13. > :23:19.by-election that has said many things most people would regard as
:23:20. > :23:24.stupid or offensive? Roger is fighting this for us, someone of 70
:23:25. > :23:29.years of age who grew up with a strong Christian Bible background,
:23:30. > :23:33.in an age when homosexuality was imprisonable. He had a certain set
:23:34. > :23:37.of views which he maintained for many years which he now says he
:23:38. > :23:43.accepts the world has moved on and he is relaxed about it. The comments
:23:44. > :23:50.about homosexuality are not from the dark ages, they are from two or
:23:51. > :23:56.three years ago. From when he was a Conservative, yes, so will you be
:23:57. > :24:00.asking David Cameron that question? I have never seen a single comment
:24:01. > :24:06.from Roger that would be deemed to be offensive. Do you regard his
:24:07. > :24:11.comments on homosexuality as offensive? When he grew up,
:24:12. > :24:21.homosexuality was illegal in this country. But this was in 2012 but he
:24:22. > :24:30.said that. Most people have his age still feel uncomfortable about it --
:24:31. > :24:38.of his age. In 2012 he said, if two men can be married, why not three,
:24:39. > :24:42.why not a commune. Many people in this country are disconcerted by the
:24:43. > :24:46.change in the meaning of marriage and in a tolerant society we
:24:47. > :24:52.understand that some people have different views. But he has changed
:24:53. > :25:02.his views now in only two years? He says he is more relaxed about it.
:25:03. > :25:06.Was he your candidate? He is a first-class campaigner who has had
:25:07. > :25:11.30 years in industry, he served in the European Parliament, he is a
:25:12. > :25:15.good candidate. This morning's papers suggest you are about to
:25:16. > :25:21.select Victoria Ayling for Grimsby, but she is on camera saying that, of
:25:22. > :25:25.immigrants, I just want to send a lot back. This is all very
:25:26. > :25:29.interesting, and we can talk about it, all we could talk about the fact
:25:30. > :25:34.that in 12 days we have a European election and every voter across the
:25:35. > :25:41.UK can vote on it and it is really interesting. Are you happy to pick a
:25:42. > :25:48.candidate that says of immigrants, I just want to send a lot back? I have
:25:49. > :25:55.seen the tape, it is a complete misquote and she says it in the
:25:56. > :26:01.context of illegal immigrants. I have seen the full quote and in the
:26:02. > :26:06.context it is not about illegal immigrants. Let's come onto the
:26:07. > :26:10.European campaign, you have used a company that employs Eastern
:26:11. > :26:14.European is to deliver leaflets in London and the Home Counties. Have
:26:15. > :26:20.we? I'm told that in Croydon one branch might have done that. Have
:26:21. > :26:25.you found some indigenous Brits to deliver leaflets in Europe? We have
:26:26. > :26:30.thousands joining the party every month and they are not all
:26:31. > :26:35.indigenous because what is interesting is that in today's
:26:36. > :26:47.opinion polls, UKIP is above the Lib Dems and the Conservatives amongst
:26:48. > :27:01.the indigenous voting. We have not agreed a manifesto for
:27:02. > :27:09.the general election, we will do over the course of the summer. This
:27:10. > :27:13.is in your local election. We are having local elections in some part
:27:14. > :27:17.of the country but we are fighting a European election. It is impossible
:27:18. > :27:23.with the British media to have an intelligent debate on the European
:27:24. > :27:28.question. But as I say, we are also fighting the local elections too.
:27:29. > :27:34.You have promised these tax cuts, how much will they cost? I have met
:27:35. > :27:39.-- read the local election manifesto and it doesn't make those promises.
:27:40. > :27:43.We do talk about local services, we do talk about the need to keep
:27:44. > :27:51.council tax down but we don't talk about income tax. Absolutely not. In
:27:52. > :27:57.local election campaigning you say you would restore cuts to policing,
:27:58. > :28:05.double prison places, restore cuts to front line NHS, spend more on
:28:06. > :28:09.roads, how much would that cost? You are obviously reading different
:28:10. > :28:13.documents to me. We are voting for local councillors in district
:28:14. > :28:20.councils who have got little local budgets. Every party in a manifesto
:28:21. > :28:26.puts his aspirations in it. Have you read it? Of course I have, cover to
:28:27. > :28:32.cover, which is why I'm saying you are misquoting it. By the way, on
:28:33. > :28:39.the bubble bursting, you told that to Norman Smith of the BBC. 75% of
:28:40. > :28:44.British laws are now made in the European Union. Now AstraZeneca is
:28:45. > :28:50.potentially going to be taken over by Pfizer. The BBC is refusing to
:28:51. > :28:54.show the public that that decision cannot be taken here but by an
:28:55. > :29:01.elected European commissioner, and we sit and argue about what is in or
:29:02. > :29:12.not in the local election manifesto. It is my job, but let me come on to
:29:13. > :29:19.AstraZeneca. Is it your view that a British government should stop the
:29:20. > :29:28.takeover of AstraZeneca? It cannot. Can we please get this clear. I sat
:29:29. > :29:33.next to Chuka Umunna the other day at question time and he said what
:29:34. > :29:37.could and couldn't be done. He said I am being studiously neutral, and
:29:38. > :29:44.the reason is we don't have this power. That is what the European
:29:45. > :29:56.elections is about. Should France have the takeover of the food
:29:57. > :30:05.company Danan? We seem to do things to the Nth degree and nobody else
:30:06. > :30:09.does, perhaps because we have this culture and we obey it. In your
:30:10. > :30:18.view, you don't think Pfizer should be able to take over AstraZeneca?
:30:19. > :30:30.There is some good science within AstraZeneca which is in
:30:31. > :30:37.A lot of it is in Sweden and I know that, but there is still a lot of
:30:38. > :30:44.good science being done there. What did you think of the Prime Minister
:30:45. > :30:51.saying he would not form a coalition unless he could have a European
:30:52. > :30:54.referendum? Mr Cameron has given a cast iron guarantee that if he
:30:55. > :30:58.becomes prime minister last year, he will have a referendum on the Lisbon
:30:59. > :31:07.Treaty. That is what he said previously and heeded not deliver on
:31:08. > :31:11.that. The renegotiation is worth nothing. He says he will not form a
:31:12. > :31:16.Government unless he can go forward to a referendum. He is desperately
:31:17. > :31:19.pretending to be Eurosceptic whilst at the same time saying that
:31:20. > :31:24.whatever the result is he will campaign for Britain to remain in.
:31:25. > :31:31.In a sense that is what this election is about. Three traditional
:31:32. > :31:37.parties plus the SNP, all of whom passionately believe in the European
:31:38. > :31:42.Union. UKIP is saying there is a bigger and better world than that.
:31:43. > :31:47.You are travelling with four bodyguards. Has this affected you
:31:48. > :31:51.and your family life? I can't stand it that I have always been a free
:31:52. > :31:56.spirit that has wandered around and do my own thing. I am afraid that
:31:57. > :32:01.the level of threat has... I am sadly... We have a couple of
:32:02. > :32:05.organisations out there headed up by senior Labour Party figures who
:32:06. > :32:09.purport to be against fascism and extremism, who receive funding from
:32:10. > :32:15.the Department for the communities, who receive funding from the trade
:32:16. > :32:21.unions, who have acted in a violent wait more than once. You are saying
:32:22. > :32:31.that the Labour Party is against these threats? No, I am saying...
:32:32. > :32:36.You are still keen to be an MP? Yes. But let's get this out of the
:32:37. > :32:41.way. What UKIP will don't do is we will target for the General Election
:32:42. > :32:46.next year... Wouldn't it be easier if you just went to the Lords? That
:32:47. > :32:52.is where most antiestablishment candidates... That is the last thing
:32:53. > :32:56.I want to do. I will not rest until we are freed from political union
:32:57. > :33:02.and Government from Brussels. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who
:33:03. > :33:05.leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.
:33:06. > :33:08.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:33:09. > :33:10.programme: As ministers at Westminster and Holyrood do battle
:33:11. > :33:13.over Scottish independence, are civil servants being drawn into the
:33:14. > :33:17.fray? Is their much-heralded neutrality
:33:18. > :33:26.being tested during this campaign? And we look back on 15 years of the
:33:27. > :33:29.Scottish Parliament. Good morning. The UK Civil Service
:33:30. > :33:32.is facing unprecedented challenges to its impartiality as London and
:33:33. > :33:34.Edinburgh lock horns over the independence referendum. Mandarins
:33:35. > :33:37.in both Whitehall and St Andrew's House face accusations they're
:33:38. > :33:41.falling under the spell of their respective ministers. But the Sir
:33:42. > :33:45.Humphreys are clear they're duty bound to obey the codes of conduct
:33:46. > :33:53.set out to stop them straying into party political issues. Andrew Kerr
:33:54. > :33:58.reports. Whitehall of old. Dusty civil
:33:59. > :34:02.servants adhering to strict Victorian codes of conduct. The
:34:03. > :34:06.civil service wants to keep that perception. They serve whoever that
:34:07. > :34:12.ministers are, whoever the public elects. The public are the key
:34:13. > :34:16.people. They serve the Government. They are not totally neutral while
:34:17. > :34:20.that Government is in office, but they are politically impartial so
:34:21. > :34:23.they can immediately switch from one policy to possibly a diametric
:34:24. > :34:29.opposed one, as they have done sometimes in the past. MPs and the
:34:30. > :34:32.public administration select committee are investigating their
:34:33. > :34:36.impartiality and the exceptional circumstances of the referendum have
:34:37. > :34:40.given them plenty to chew over. This week, the Scottish branch was
:34:41. > :34:45.questioned over its involvement in the White Paper. Many commentators
:34:46. > :34:50.have raised concerns, including Professor Jim Gallagher, who is
:34:51. > :34:59.advising Better Together. My personal view is that it went a bit
:35:00. > :35:01.too far. It is too much of a political document. Not only does it
:35:02. > :35:04.explain what independence might mean, it goes on to say things like
:35:05. > :35:06.what a Scottish National party Government would do if he were
:35:07. > :35:10.elected after the referendum and after the election, and that seems
:35:11. > :35:14.to push it a wee bit too far. That was defended by the man who signed
:35:15. > :35:22.it off. This was carefully discussed, and led to vary careful
:35:23. > :35:25.caveat in within the text of the White Paper that what we were
:35:26. > :35:30.talking about here was in fact there were two pages opposite of powers
:35:31. > :35:35.that would be available to an independent Scotland, and how, or
:35:36. > :35:39.the SNP to form a Government in 2016 and beyond, they would exercise
:35:40. > :35:44.them. Others have come to his support, including a former First
:35:45. > :35:48.Minister. Henry McLeish work with civil servants both North and South
:35:49. > :35:52.of the border. In Scotland today there is a very fevered political
:35:53. > :35:55.atmosphere and strange tensions and anxieties and often parties want to
:35:56. > :36:03.look at the civil service in more detail to see whether they are
:36:04. > :36:05.stepping over the line. As far as I'm concerned, what we have seen so
:36:06. > :36:08.far in the independence debate does not mean that the line has been
:36:09. > :36:11.crossed. Many believe the Sir Nicholas Furse and, permanent
:36:12. > :36:15.Secretary to the Treasury, stepped over that line when he released a
:36:16. > :36:20.letter strongly advising against a currency union. He was questioned by
:36:21. > :36:23.MPs last month. I regard this as a very exceptional set of
:36:24. > :36:27.circumstances, but it is one where the interests of the British state,
:36:28. > :36:36.the Government, the official Treasury, the pound sterling, all
:36:37. > :36:40.these things, the pound sterling's position in markets were all
:36:41. > :36:43.completely aligned. This was a very serious issue and it seemed to me
:36:44. > :36:47.the line may have been crossed because what we saw here was advice
:36:48. > :36:53.being given, being made public. That does not normally happen. At the end
:36:54. > :36:56.of the day, we know that after the vote, if there is a Yes vote, there
:36:57. > :37:00.will be a completely different contraction on the question of the
:37:01. > :37:03.sterling currency union. These are exceptional circumstances for these
:37:04. > :37:07.officials with conventions designed for a different world, but Professor
:37:08. > :37:12.Gallagher is broadly supportive of the boundaries being stretched in
:37:13. > :37:16.this case. It is critically about what Nick Macpherson thought he was
:37:17. > :37:20.doing was making very clear against the accusation from the Scottish
:37:21. > :37:26.Government that UK ministers were playing politics with the currency,
:37:27. > :37:28.he was saying that as the head of one of the big important
:37:29. > :37:32.institutions that support the currency, no, this was not a
:37:33. > :37:37.political gesture, this was an explanation of the evidence and what
:37:38. > :37:40.the reality is well. The old certainties have changed and the
:37:41. > :37:44.realities of this referendum have hit the ball hat brigade. The
:37:45. > :37:48.mandarins may have turned out to very different rules depending on
:37:49. > :37:52.what happens on the 18th of September.
:37:53. > :37:55.I'm joined by two former special advisors. In London, John McTernan,
:37:56. > :37:58.who worked for Tony Blair in Downing Street. And in Edinburgh, Alex Bell,
:37:59. > :38:02.who worked for the Scottish Government on the white paper. Good
:38:03. > :38:05.afternoon to both of you. Alex Bell, has civil service neutrality been
:38:06. > :38:09.compromised during this referendum campaign? You have to pick up the
:38:10. > :38:13.fact that these are exceptional stuck in senses. As for the charge
:38:14. > :38:17.against the Scottish Government, don't think so. They are doing what
:38:18. > :38:21.they are charged to do, represent the Government of the day. The
:38:22. > :38:26.exceptional thing, as Henry McLeish was just telling us there, was Sir
:38:27. > :38:29.Nick Macpherson's decision to utter these words himself rather than
:38:30. > :38:33.simply get a minister to utter them. But broadly, we are in a very
:38:34. > :38:40.difficult situation. Cerney is the one who has thing to answer for. --
:38:41. > :38:42.Sir Nick. But this is a detail of the referendum that leaves voters
:38:43. > :38:55.very turned off and is not at the heart of what is the destiny of our
:38:56. > :39:05.country. What -- What kind of terms should we consider as to whether
:39:06. > :39:12.advice is published or not? Sir -- It is an evolving situation but Nick
:39:13. > :39:18.MacPherson made the case very strongly and Jim McCulloch made it
:39:19. > :39:22.in your package. This is one of the critical issues. In all the focus
:39:23. > :39:25.groups, we know the public want to know what would the currency of an
:39:26. > :39:30.independent Scotland Bay, and the view of the Bank of England, the
:39:31. > :39:34.Treasury, and all of the main political parties in the UK is
:39:35. > :39:38.Scotland would not get a currency union. But that is a political
:39:39. > :39:44.decision, so is a civil servant being dragged into that political
:39:45. > :39:47.decision? No, he was explaining that the Government, the Bank of England
:39:48. > :39:52.and Nick Macpherson made the same point. There are huge risks to the
:39:53. > :39:58.currency union. It is the same reason the SNP do not want Scotland
:39:59. > :40:04.to join the euro. Your choices are constrained by another country's
:40:05. > :40:08.central bank. So to think that where the politicisation has gone on is
:40:09. > :40:12.the disgraceful publication of the White Paper which was an SNP
:40:13. > :40:17.manifesto, and the appalling behaviour of Sir Peter Housden in
:40:18. > :40:21.allowing that to go ahead, to keep in to the political isolation, the
:40:22. > :40:25.political pressure of the SNP. Civil servants have compiled a White
:40:26. > :40:28.Paper. It did contain details of what the SNP might do if it formed a
:40:29. > :40:33.Government after independence. Is that a step too far for civil
:40:34. > :40:38.servants? I am afraid we are seeing the default for most of this
:40:39. > :40:41.campaign, which is if in doubt, slurred the other side. I do not
:40:42. > :40:46.think Sir Peter Housden has done anything wrong. The elected
:40:47. > :40:51.Government has a policy which was a referendum on independence. They had
:40:52. > :40:55.to produce a White Paper therein. Broadly, Whitehall has to do the
:40:56. > :40:58.same, to represent the views of the connected Government there, which is
:40:59. > :41:03.of course the coalition. What we have here is an attempt to somehow,
:41:04. > :41:08.if we can smear the civil servant, we can somehow smear the policy.
:41:09. > :41:11.This point on the currency union, no doubt a currency union will bring
:41:12. > :41:15.great controls and that is something we could discuss maybe with some
:41:16. > :41:19.fruit, but discussing the idea that we know it to be a certainty, we
:41:20. > :41:22.simply don't, partly because Government ministers in the UK
:41:23. > :41:26.Government themselves have cast doubt on it. But on the White
:41:27. > :41:30.Paper, the civil service code has an obligation not to act in a way that
:41:31. > :41:36.is determined by party political considerations or use resources for
:41:37. > :41:40.a party political purpose. Can it not be argued that that is what
:41:41. > :41:46.happened with a White Paper given that it laid out what a political
:41:47. > :41:51.party would do after the election? For the Iraq war, when the civil
:41:52. > :41:57.servants were preparing documents to justify it, but they pursuing the
:41:58. > :42:01.ideal of one man or a party, or the idea of a state? I am not sure. They
:42:02. > :42:07.different philosophical point, what happened to the White Paper in the
:42:08. > :42:11.1997 referendum of devolution? What's the civil service pursuing
:42:12. > :42:15.the will of one party, the democratically elected Government,
:42:16. > :42:21.or the state? When you are civil servant, you are operating in a,
:42:22. > :42:26.let's say interesting, philosophical area. It is the whole wisdom of the
:42:27. > :42:30.system that stops it from the ring one way or another. Paul Flynn,
:42:31. > :42:35.Labour MP, said the Westminster committee investigating civil
:42:36. > :42:40.service and impartiality was being abused as a platform for the English
:42:41. > :42:44.lead opposition to Scottish independence. Our Westminster MPs
:42:45. > :42:50.against Scottish independence able to investigate this? Paul Flynn made
:42:51. > :42:54.a ridiculous statement. I have no idea why he thinks that the UK
:42:55. > :42:57.Parliament, which includes Scottish MPs representing Scottish voters,
:42:58. > :43:02.should not be looking at the politicisation of the civil service.
:43:03. > :43:10.You can go to that White Paper, the SNP made a party political figures.
:43:11. > :43:15.They invented a cost for Trident, which only appears in SNP documents.
:43:16. > :43:20.If it was a proper White Paper, it would have a balanced discussion of
:43:21. > :43:28.possibilities. It just says what will happen, not what may happen.
:43:29. > :43:32.The White Paper is 670 pages. So far we have had 1200 pages from the UK
:43:33. > :43:38.Government with more to come. Civil servants not being used in the same
:43:39. > :43:40.manner at Whitehall? No, the civil service at Whitehall is doing
:43:41. > :43:44.analyses and you can look at those and I have not seen a single fact in
:43:45. > :43:49.any of those papers. There are things which are not true in the
:43:50. > :43:55.White Paper, they are political, and there are things which took about
:43:56. > :44:00.the SNP plans to have by 2030 8 million migrants in Scotland. That
:44:01. > :44:08.is being concealed because they do not want discussion of immigration.
:44:09. > :44:11.It is a very strange document. I'm prepared to come into the studio to
:44:12. > :44:19.discuss point about the civil service and about the White Paper.
:44:20. > :44:22.I'm not prepared to join in with them his borderline racist slur
:44:23. > :44:26.dragging immigrants into this debate. When Ed Miliband was last in
:44:27. > :44:29.the country the Daily Mail had a front-page splash which said if you
:44:30. > :44:36.vote, yes, there will be a wave of new immigrants. I am deeply alarmed
:44:37. > :44:39.that the Labour Party should be focusing on immigration is what they
:44:40. > :44:45.think is a winning ticket, and do not think it serves either John
:44:46. > :44:49.McTernan or his campaign well. On the issue of publishing advice, we
:44:50. > :44:52.know the Scottish Government has commissioned Frank Mulholland, the
:44:53. > :44:57.Lord Advocate, to give them advice and Europe. Should that be
:44:58. > :45:02.published? Is that a wise move to inform the public? I'm of the view
:45:03. > :45:07.that all legal advice on all things should be published, and obviously
:45:08. > :45:10.we have some outstanding examples on that to do with the Iraq war and
:45:11. > :45:15.other things. But the Government precedent, the habit has been not to
:45:16. > :45:22.do that. If we want a universal agreement across the civil service,
:45:23. > :45:27.the UK in Scotland, that all legal advice should be published, I am
:45:28. > :45:30.afraid the civil service has allowed politicians to pick and choose and
:45:31. > :45:35.that is why we end up in this dubious position. Thank you.
:45:36. > :45:37.Tomorrow marks 15 years since 129 proud and freshly elected-members of
:45:38. > :45:40.the newly reformed Scottish Parliament sat in Edinburgh for the
:45:41. > :45:43.first time. The devolution of powers followed a referendum in 1997 after
:45:44. > :45:46.Tony Blair's government came to power and was seen as unfinished
:45:47. > :45:50.business of the Labour leader's predecessor, John Smith. The
:45:51. > :45:53.anniversary coincides with this year's independence referendum which
:45:54. > :45:56.will decide the next chapter in Scotland's story. Our political
:45:57. > :46:05.correspondent, Tim Reid, has been looking back.
:46:06. > :46:08.It was this act of Parliament, debated over many months at
:46:09. > :46:15.Westminster, which initially handed powers to Edinburgh. It could not be
:46:16. > :46:27.more definitive. There shall be a Scottish parliament. I like that!
:46:28. > :46:30.Donald Dewar was one of the first to be elected, becoming the first first
:46:31. > :46:37.Minister before his untimely death less than a year later. While he had
:46:38. > :46:43.had to persuade Tony Blair about devolution, some other Labour
:46:44. > :46:46.figures were never convinced. We will go down a motorway to a
:46:47. > :46:55.separate state, a journey on which most of us do not want to embark.
:46:56. > :46:59.There have been high points and low point, controversial decisions that
:47:00. > :47:03.have provoked anger. Sometimes politicians will get it right,
:47:04. > :47:13.sometimes they will get it wrong. That is not a reason to rip up the
:47:14. > :47:17.political system. The current first Minister, Alex Salmond also won a
:47:18. > :47:20.seat in those first elections but how committed where he and his party
:47:21. > :47:26.he was asked during the campaign, to devolution. I'm standing for
:47:27. > :47:34.election for the devolved parliament and we respected you have policies
:47:35. > :47:39.to run that devolved government. To be clear, a vote for you is a vote
:47:40. > :47:48.for independence? We are the Independence party. The first five
:47:49. > :47:51.years were spent in temporary premises on loan from the Church of
:47:52. > :47:59.Scotland. The Scottish Parliament adjourned on the 25th day of March
:48:00. > :48:06.in the year 1707 is hereby reconvened. Despite massive backing
:48:07. > :48:10.for devolution, public support waned when from May to July that year, MSP
:48:11. > :48:14.'s discussed nothing but procedure and their adventures. For many,
:48:15. > :48:30.those accounts were forgotten and his -- this former presiding
:48:31. > :48:36.officer... Perhaps in the very early days, some people felt a bit wobbly
:48:37. > :48:39.when all of the bad publicity, particularly about the cost of the
:48:40. > :48:43.building that was going on. We have left that well behind us. It is a
:48:44. > :48:48.long time since anyone mentioned that, which shows that we are now
:48:49. > :48:53.part of Scottish society. Holyrood's voting system has allowed
:48:54. > :48:58.smaller parties in much greater say and for the first two terms gave Lib
:48:59. > :49:06.Dems ministerial power. They had a Coalition with Labour. It was
:49:07. > :49:13.difficult at their fences within parties as well as between parties.
:49:14. > :49:20.We had ways of dealing with these difficulties. But while devolution
:49:21. > :49:27.has given Parliament -- has made Parliament more available to voters,
:49:28. > :49:35.there Russell concerns. We have not but read of the old problems, the
:49:36. > :49:38.dominance of major parties. The disappointing performance of the
:49:39. > :49:42.committees that were supposed to be a counterweight and the general
:49:43. > :49:47.secrecy in government. It has certainly been a huge improvement
:49:48. > :49:59.but much more can be done. In the 1990s, there were plans for a change
:50:00. > :50:07.to income tax which was never imposed. If Mr Blair is being
:50:08. > :50:13.serious when he says that the tartan tax is raised, let us be certain by
:50:14. > :50:24.not having the referendum at all. The former Tory prime ministers,
:50:25. > :50:31.John Major, ended up at odds with his own colleagues in Scotland.
:50:32. > :50:34.Having a Scottish government, having a Scottish parliament has made
:50:35. > :50:39.sense. Most of the powers of the Scottish government are similar to
:50:40. > :50:44.the responsible days I had when I was Secretary of State for Scotland
:50:45. > :50:51.but I had to get the consent of the rest of the UK government. The
:50:52. > :50:56.Secretary of State for Scotland has a degree of freedom. Legally,
:50:57. > :51:04.Scotland's devolution journey started here at West Mr. Where will
:51:05. > :51:11.it end? There are two roads, full independence or further devolution.
:51:12. > :51:25.You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland. Let's cross now for the
:51:26. > :51:28.news with Andrew Kerr. Good morning. The Church of Scotland has invited
:51:29. > :51:31.the leaders of Yes Scotland and Better Together to a special service
:51:32. > :51:34.of reconciliation on the Sunday after the referendum. It will be
:51:35. > :51:37.held in Edinburgh's St Giles Cathderal and led by the the Kirk's
:51:38. > :51:40.new moderator, the Reverend John Chalmers. He hopes the service will
:51:41. > :51:43.help heal divisions after the vote. It's the tenth anniversary of the
:51:44. > :51:47.Stockline Plastics disaster and relatives of the nine people killed
:51:48. > :51:50.will gather in Glasgow to remember their loved ones. The factory in the
:51:51. > :51:54.Maryhill area was destroyed by a propane explosion. The relatives are
:51:55. > :51:57.backing a campaign by the local MSP to allow sheriffs to order safety
:51:58. > :52:04.improvements identified after a tragedy.
:52:05. > :52:07.The Olympic medallist Tom Daley will meet the Commonwealth Baton as it
:52:08. > :52:10.arrives back in the British isles today. It's been all around the
:52:11. > :52:13.world, including here in Uganda, but it'll touch down in Jersey this
:52:14. > :52:20.afternoon. The baton will arrive in Scotland on June the 14th.
:52:21. > :52:27.Let's now take a look at the forecast with Christopher.
:52:28. > :52:30.Hello. And East-West split to the weather. The further west you are, a
:52:31. > :52:34.correlation of bright spells and showers but in the east cloudier
:52:35. > :52:39.with some patchy rain really through Aberdeenshire, down towards Angus
:52:40. > :52:44.and the Lothians later. It should not feel too bad under the sunniest
:52:45. > :52:50.guys, 14 or 15 degrees. Cooler under the cloud. Later, some heavy showers
:52:51. > :52:54.developing, primarily in the south-west, into this evening. That
:52:55. > :52:57.is the forecast for now. That's it. Back to Gary.
:52:58. > :53:01.Thank you. Now it's time to have a look at the
:53:02. > :53:08.Sunday papers and what's happening in the week ahead. And with me today
:53:09. > :53:12.are Jeane Freeman, who's a former senior civil servant and a member of
:53:13. > :53:20.Women For Independence, and the political editor of the Daily
:53:21. > :53:27.Record, David Clegg. Let us start with the story on the front of the
:53:28. > :53:33.Sunday Herald. It was advice given to James Callaghan to set up an oil
:53:34. > :53:37.fund in Scotland, which they did not do. There are many yes supporters
:53:38. > :53:50.who think that Westminster squandered that choice. Many believe
:53:51. > :53:54.that Scotland's oil wealth was wasted by not setting up an oil
:53:55. > :54:00.fund. There is a general consensus that if we had set up an oil fund in
:54:01. > :54:04.the UK, it would have been a worthwhile endeavour. The fact is
:54:05. > :54:10.that it didn't happen and the question is what is better to do
:54:11. > :54:14.going forward. The money was spent on public services rather than being
:54:15. > :54:17.put into that fund. I think it is interesting because the whole
:54:18. > :54:22.argument around having an oil fund is really an argument about how we
:54:23. > :54:30.as a country harness our resources and really it is a straightforward
:54:31. > :54:33.argument that most people, if they had the resources, would say we
:54:34. > :54:37.would use some of it now and put some of it away for the longer term
:54:38. > :54:40.investment, weather that is to help children go through higher education
:54:41. > :54:46.or set up their own homes or whatever. But you cannot spend it in
:54:47. > :54:49.the meantime. You can do a bit of both. It is interesting news but I'm
:54:50. > :54:59.not sure weather it serves us well to start implying somehow some
:55:00. > :55:04.victim had, that they were against us. It reinforces the sound common
:55:05. > :55:11.sense of having such a thing as an oil fund the view fortunate enough
:55:12. > :55:17.to have that kind of resource as a country, you should use it wisely.
:55:18. > :55:26.I'm not sure it does much more than that. On the theme of money, yes
:55:27. > :55:33.Scotland have detailed the donations. The others on the list of
:55:34. > :55:40.fairly prominent independent supporters. No surprises there. The
:55:41. > :55:56.most surprising thing is how much the Weirs gave. It is interesting
:55:57. > :55:59.when you look at the history of this how that one quirk of circumstance
:56:00. > :56:02.very much changed how one side was able to fund itself and deliver its
:56:03. > :56:08.message to the public. They also point out that they have had 11,000
:56:09. > :56:19.donors giving up to seven and a half thousand pounds -- ?7,500. Nothing
:56:20. > :56:24.on the scale of the Weirs donations but quite a lot. That is a fair
:56:25. > :56:31.comment for them to make. Lots of small donations. They are indicators
:56:32. > :56:44.of people engaging in the debate. Yes, it is absolutely fortunate.
:56:45. > :56:50.David 's point is valid. It could be the tipping point in one direction
:56:51. > :57:05.or another. The figures from December four Better Together showed
:57:06. > :57:11.that they had more small donations will stop they have had more small
:57:12. > :57:15.donations which is counterintuitive to how we feel the referendum has
:57:16. > :57:19.been going, which is that yes Scotland has more of a grassroots
:57:20. > :57:21.movement which you would expect to translate into more smaller
:57:22. > :57:27.donations but it appears that that is not what has happened. Our people
:57:28. > :57:36.giving their time rather than their cash? Some of the Better Together
:57:37. > :57:48.donations could have come from the rest of the UK. Further onto the
:57:49. > :57:56.civil service neutrality, given your civil service career. As their
:57:57. > :58:00.neutrality been compromised? It is one of those pieces of nonsense that
:58:01. > :58:06.anoraks get engaged in in order to support one side of the ultimate or
:58:07. > :58:09.another. I was a senior civil servant and a senior adviser, so I'm
:58:10. > :58:16.fortunate enough to have been on both sides of that. The rules
:58:17. > :58:22.clearly defined? They are and the rules are clear about how far their
:58:23. > :58:27.policy advice goes and where it does not tip over into political
:58:28. > :58:30.decision-making. They are crystal clear about that and that is why we
:58:31. > :58:35.have political advisers. I think the notion that the white paper is some
:58:36. > :58:40.kind of step too far for the Scottish civil service is really a
:58:41. > :58:43.piece of nonsense that is being put forward in order to support a
:58:44. > :58:47.particular political viewpoint on the independence campaign and I just
:58:48. > :58:54.don't think it is correct at all. Finally, the Church of Scotland are
:58:55. > :59:01.going to hold a reconsideration service just after the referendum.
:59:02. > :59:07.Is that an overreaction? I find the term reconciliation to be very
:59:08. > :59:09.strong. There is a heated debate and feelings will be hurt and
:59:10. > :59:13.relationships no doubt will suffer but I don't think we are quite at
:59:14. > :59:16.the stage where the nation will be so terribly divided that they cannot
:59:17. > :59:23.come together. Perhaps people who are very on much on the front line
:59:24. > :59:29.are more aware of what is going on. But I do not sense that in general
:59:30. > :59:32.we are getting into a situation that will cause any long-term problems.
:59:33. > :59:34.We will leave things that but thank you both very much for coming in
:59:35. > :59:38.this lunchtime. That's all from the us this week.
:59:39. > :59:41.I'll be back at the same time next week and with a special European
:59:42. > :59:43.elections hustings on Newsnight Scotland tomorrow at 10:30pm. Until
:59:44. > :59:48.then, goodbye.