:00:39. > :00:44.Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Politics. Four days to go until
:00:45. > :00:49.election day, and be warned, coming to a street near you, a party leader
:00:50. > :00:53.on a charm offensive. They all want your vote on Thursday, and
:00:54. > :00:58.local elections across England as well. The polls this morning are all
:00:59. > :01:02.over the place, so your vote could make a difference. This man has a
:01:03. > :01:12.smile on his face. He is 11 point head. He has promised an earthquake.
:01:13. > :01:16.He has been asking all the big questions. David Cameron went to a
:01:17. > :01:20.chicken place. Where are you going questions. David Cameron went to a
:01:21. > :01:22.for large? Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: Voting for
:01:23. > :01:25.members of the European parliament gets under way on Thursday.
:01:26. > :01:29.We'll be debating the big issues live with four of the main
:01:30. > :01:36.candidates and asking them why it matters.
:01:37. > :01:42.32 boroughs. I am in the studio, with those who think they have got
:01:43. > :01:48.all the big answers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So, it
:01:49. > :01:53.is the European elections for everybody on Thursday, local
:01:54. > :01:56.elections for England and a bit of Northern Ireland as well. They are
:01:57. > :02:01.the last elections before the big one, the 2015 general election. Some
:02:02. > :02:05.say that these European and local elections will not be much of a
:02:06. > :02:11.pointer to how the big one goes. But that will not stop political
:02:12. > :02:16.commentators and party gurus from examining them closely. So, what is
:02:17. > :02:18.at stake? Thursday May the 22nd is local elections and European
:02:19. > :02:42.Parliament elections. These local results should be known
:02:43. > :02:47.by Friday. In the European elections, all 751 members of the
:02:48. > :02:53.European Parliament will be elected across Europe. 73 MEPs will be let
:02:54. > :02:58.it by people living in the UK. But the results will not be announced
:02:59. > :03:03.until Sunday night, after voting has closed throughout the 28 member
:03:04. > :03:06.states of the EU. Nick Watt, we are in a position where the polls this
:03:07. > :03:10.morning cannot tell us what the outcome is going to be on Thursday,
:03:11. > :03:15.and the general election is still wide open - we really are in
:03:16. > :03:19.uncharted territory? Also it is difficult to know where we are,
:03:20. > :03:23.because there is that ComRes poll which shows an 11 point lead amongst
:03:24. > :03:27.those certain to vote for UKIP, and another poll in the Sunday Times
:03:28. > :03:35.showing that it is a much more slender lead for UKIP. But we know
:03:36. > :03:39.that will they win? We do not know, but clearly they will unsettle the
:03:40. > :03:43.major parties. Fall or five months ago, we assumed that the UKIP
:03:44. > :03:48.success would create panic in the Conservative Party, but that has
:03:49. > :03:52.been factored into David Cameron's share price. The Conservative Party
:03:53. > :03:57.is remarkably relaxed at the moment, and I wonder whether this time next
:03:58. > :04:00.week, when we have the results, whether the two political leaders
:04:01. > :04:05.who will be under pressure will be Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg. Nick
:04:06. > :04:10.Clegg, because they could go down from 12 MEPs to maybe just three or
:04:11. > :04:13.four. And Ed Miliband, because, one year before a general election, he
:04:14. > :04:19.should be showing that he is a significant, potent electoral
:04:20. > :04:24.force. So, they should all be worried about UKIP, but whereas a
:04:25. > :04:28.couple of months ago, we would all have said David Cameron was the one
:04:29. > :04:33.who should be worried, now, we are saying it is Mr Miliband and Mr
:04:34. > :04:36.Clegg? And of the two, I think it is Ed Miliband who should be worried.
:04:37. > :04:44.The Lib Dems are an incredibly resilient party. He described his
:04:45. > :04:54.own party as cockroaches, and incredible resilience! I think the
:04:55. > :05:00.Lib Dems are ready to take this one, but I think Labour are really wobbly
:05:01. > :05:04.at the moment. What UKIP has done, to England, it means that England
:05:05. > :05:09.has caught up with Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, England
:05:10. > :05:14.now has a four party system, which makes it all the more uncertain what
:05:15. > :05:18.the outcome will be? Yes, but whether UKIP finish first or second,
:05:19. > :05:24.it will be the biggest insurgent event since the European elections
:05:25. > :05:29.began in 1979. People talk about the Greens in 1989, but I think they
:05:30. > :05:32.finished third. Were UKIP to win a national election or even finish
:05:33. > :05:36.runner-up, it would be truly historic. It is reflecting on
:05:37. > :05:43.something which is happening across Europe, pianist in Italy, Holland,
:05:44. > :05:48.France and in this country. -- populist parties. And it makes first
:05:49. > :05:53.past the post look absolutely ridiculous. You could be in a
:05:54. > :05:57.situation after the next general election where Labour do not get the
:05:58. > :06:00.largest percentage of the vote but they get the largest number of
:06:01. > :06:04.seats. First past the post works fairly if there are only two
:06:05. > :06:10.parties, but when there are four... We will talk more about that. Let's
:06:11. > :06:15.speak now to Suzanne Evans of UKIP. She is at Westminster. Now, UKIP
:06:16. > :06:19.claims that there is going to be an earthquake in British politics on
:06:20. > :06:25.Thursday. Suppose there is, what does UKIP then need to do to become
:06:26. > :06:29.a more grown-up, proper party? I think UKIP has very much become a
:06:30. > :06:36.grown-up, proper party. We have been around for 20 years. What we are
:06:37. > :06:39.going to be doing after the European elections, if we do cause this
:06:40. > :06:44.earthquake, and the polls are looking like we are going to, is we
:06:45. > :06:48.will be firmly looking towards 2015, getting our general election
:06:49. > :06:52.manifesto out, to keep those votes on board from the euro elections and
:06:53. > :06:54.putting forward common-sense policies which really will bring
:06:55. > :06:58.Britain back to the people. We want to be able to hold the balance of
:06:59. > :07:09.power come the general election. If we can do that then there will be a
:07:10. > :07:12.referendum. That will be our aim. You say you are a more grown-up
:07:13. > :07:18.party, but when you look at the stream of gaffes and controversies
:07:19. > :07:22.created by your candidates and members, I will not go into them
:07:23. > :07:27.this morning, at the very least, I would suggest you are needing a more
:07:28. > :07:30.robust system of selection? You could say the same for the other
:07:31. > :07:36.three parties, who have been around for a lot longer. They have got
:07:37. > :07:42.nothing like the embarrassments you had. I am afraid they had. Just this
:07:43. > :07:45.week, since Monday, we have had 17 Liberal Democrat, labour or
:07:46. > :07:49.Conservative councillors either arrested, charged or convicted on
:07:50. > :07:54.all manner of offences. In addition we have had 13 who have been
:07:55. > :07:57.involved in some kind of racist, sexist or homophobic incident. I am
:07:58. > :07:59.not saying I am proud of any of that. The whole of politics probably
:08:00. > :08:02.needs to be cleaned up, that. The whole of politics probably
:08:03. > :08:04.certainly do not think we are any worse than the other parties, who
:08:05. > :08:12.have much greater resources than worse than the other parties, who
:08:13. > :08:14.putting people in power who they know
:08:15. > :08:16.putting people in power who they or who have previously belonged to
:08:17. > :08:21.far right, fascist parties BNP. Can you continue to be a
:08:22. > :08:24.one-man band? The only BNP. Can you continue to be a
:08:25. > :08:27.other UKIP petition makes the BNP. Can you continue to be a
:08:28. > :08:34.headlines is when they say something loony or objectionable? We have
:08:35. > :08:36.huge amount of talent in this party. We have fantastic spokespeople
:08:37. > :08:38.across We have fantastic spokespeople
:08:39. > :08:39.expertise in the party. We have fantastic spokespeople
:08:40. > :08:46.who is a fantastic, We have fantastic spokespeople
:08:47. > :08:51.leader. But believe me, We have fantastic spokespeople
:08:52. > :08:55.huge amount of talent. When we get our
:08:56. > :08:58.huge amount of talent. When we get European elections, we will see many
:08:59. > :09:04.more of them I think on television and radio and in the newspapers. We
:09:05. > :09:11.are not a one-man band. Who runs your party? The party is run by
:09:12. > :09:13.Nigel Farage, our leader. But he spends all his time running between
:09:14. > :09:19.television studios and in and out of spends all his time running between
:09:20. > :09:22.the pub! You would be amazed how much he does, and of course we have
:09:23. > :09:28.a National Executive Committee, like the other parties. So who runs it?
:09:29. > :09:32.The National Executive Committee, in conjunction with Nigel Farage, the
:09:33. > :09:34.MEPs, the spokespeople, it is a joint effort. Your Local Government
:09:35. > :09:40.Minister Stosur is, if joint effort. Your Local Government
:09:41. > :09:46.UKIP, you go on to pledge that your councillors will not toe the party
:09:47. > :09:53.line, how does that work? -- your local government manifesto says...
:09:54. > :09:55.line, how does that work? -- your On the main policies, they will toe
:09:56. > :09:57.the party line, because that is obviously what people will be voting
:09:58. > :10:02.for. It obviously what people will be voting
:10:03. > :10:09.manifesto like the Lib Dems did on 2010 and going back on it. We have
:10:10. > :10:13.put forward a lot of positive -- a lot of policies at local government
:10:14. > :10:18.level, and those we will stick to. But when it comes to individual,
:10:19. > :10:19.local issues, say, a particular development or the closure of a
:10:20. > :10:23.school, whatever, UKIP development or the closure of a
:10:24. > :10:25.vote what they think is in the development or the closure of a
:10:26. > :10:28.interests of the people in the development or the closure of a
:10:29. > :10:30.borough, and not according to any development or the closure of a
:10:31. > :10:36.party whip system. This plays out really well on the doorstep, I find.
:10:37. > :10:38.People do not want their politicians to be in the pockets
:10:39. > :10:42.People do not want their politicians party, putting party first, ahead of
:10:43. > :10:47.the people. You want people to vote to leave the European Union in a
:10:48. > :10:51.referendum - have you published a road map as to what would then
:10:52. > :10:54.happen? Yes, there will be a road map. The Lisbon Treaty for the first
:10:55. > :10:59.happen? Yes, there will be a road time gave us that exit opportunity.
:11:00. > :11:03.Have you published a road map? I am not the legal expert on this but
:11:04. > :11:07.there are ways in which you can come out of Europe fairly quickly. There
:11:08. > :11:13.is a longer you all as well. But have you published any of that
:11:14. > :11:17.detail? Not that I have read. But certainly there are ways to do it.
:11:18. > :11:21.We are the sixth strongest world economy, I think we are in a strong
:11:22. > :11:26.position having left the EU to be able to negotiate a very good trade
:11:27. > :11:34.deal with the European Union. It is what people voted for in 1975. What
:11:35. > :11:39.would be our exact status? It would be I think what people voted for
:11:40. > :11:43.back in 1975. An independent, sovereign country in a trade
:11:44. > :11:47.agreement, a very positive and valuable trade agreement with the
:11:48. > :11:51.European Union. I voted in that referendum, I remember it well, 1975
:11:52. > :11:59.involved the free movement of people 's... That is something which I do
:12:00. > :12:03.not think UKIP or the country wants. 70% of people now are deeply
:12:04. > :12:12.concerned about immigration. So it would not be 1975, then? Andrew, it
:12:13. > :12:15.sounds like you are complaining that we might have something which is
:12:16. > :12:22.better than 1975. I am just trying to find out what it is! That sounds
:12:23. > :12:25.like positive to me. We will negotiate a trade deal and all
:12:26. > :12:29.manner of issues, whatever is best for the British people. We want our
:12:30. > :12:34.sovereignty back, we want our country back. Would you be upset if
:12:35. > :12:39.a bunch of Rumanian men moved in next door to you? Where I live, I am
:12:40. > :12:44.surrounded by one and two-bedroom flats. If ten Rumanian men moved in
:12:45. > :12:49.next door to me, I would want to ask questions. That is very different
:12:50. > :12:58.from say a Robinho family moving in next door. I would think, are they
:12:59. > :13:02.being ripped off, are they up to no good or are they perhaps being
:13:03. > :13:06.trafficked by a gang master? So I think it would be of concern, and I
:13:07. > :13:09.do not think there is anything wrong with that, it is a humanitarian
:13:10. > :13:12.approach. That would be different from a family moving in who were
:13:13. > :13:17.learning to speak English, who wanted to contribute to the British
:13:18. > :13:19.economy. Maybe if your boss is watching, he will now have found out
:13:20. > :13:35.how to answer that question. Now, what is more glamorous, 24
:13:36. > :13:39.hours in the life of a counter-terrorism agent, or 12 hours
:13:40. > :13:47.in the life of Adam Fleming, on the campaign trail? I will let you make
:13:48. > :13:51.up your own mind. So, it is eight o'clock in the morning here in
:13:52. > :13:55.Westminster. Today's challenge is, how much campaigning for the local
:13:56. > :13:59.and European elections can we fit into 12 hours? See you back here at
:14:00. > :14:04.eight o'clock tonight. Wish me luck. With my cameraman and
:14:05. > :14:13.producer, we went to Thurrock in Essex first. I got a very, very warm
:14:14. > :14:23.welcome from Abe buoyant UKIP. They have never had this much attention.
:14:24. > :14:27.One candidate's misdemeanour ends up on the front page. But you have got
:14:28. > :14:31.Lib Dem candidates being convicted of racially aggravated assault, and
:14:32. > :14:35.that was not on the front pages of the newspapers. Houdini is fine but
:14:36. > :14:42.it must be applied evenly. Have you had to sack Thurrock UKIP members
:14:43. > :14:50.for dodgy tweets or anything? Oh, God, no. Next we head to meet a top
:14:51. > :14:53.Tory in a different area. We are heading to Eastbourne. But stuck in
:14:54. > :14:58.traffic. We are going to miss William Hague. We got there, just in
:14:59. > :15:04.time, to ask the really big questions. David Cameron went to
:15:05. > :15:09.Nando De Colo last week, where are you going to go for lunch? I do not
:15:10. > :15:15.even get time for lunch. I think something in the back of the car. We
:15:16. > :15:21.will go down the street and see what people have got to say. Even the
:15:22. > :15:23.Foreign Secretary has depressed the flesh at election time? Even the
:15:24. > :15:38.Foreign Secretary meets real people. The message William Hague impresses
:15:39. > :15:40.upon everyone he meets is that the Tories are the only party offering a
:15:41. > :15:49.referendum on our membership of Tories are the only party offering a
:15:50. > :15:53.EU. He's off for lunch in the limo. I've got five minutes by the beach.
:15:54. > :16:00.This is the best thing about elections, lunch. Do you want one?
:16:01. > :16:04.And chips are weirdly relevant at our next stop - the Green Party
:16:05. > :16:08.battle bus which is parked in Ashford in Kent. What is special
:16:09. > :16:17.about this vehicle? It runs from chip fat oil so it is more friendly
:16:18. > :16:25.to the environment. But boss was boiling. The next stop is Gillingham
:16:26. > :16:28.to see Labour. Labour have just hired Barack Obama's election guru
:16:29. > :16:35.David Axelrod to help them craft their message. What does David
:16:36. > :16:46.Axelrod know about the people who live on the street? I know the local
:16:47. > :16:49.details but you handle those. Ed Miliband and his party have had to
:16:50. > :16:52.handle a few dodgy opinion polls lately, prompting some leadership
:16:53. > :17:01.speculation from one activist. Who is your favourite Labour politician?
:17:02. > :17:09.Ed Balls. Back in the car and we're flagging. Final stop, Southwark in
:17:10. > :17:17.south London. We are in the right place, this is Simon Hughes' Lib Dem
:17:18. > :17:23.taxi. The Lib Dems are campaigning as the party of in. But are they in
:17:24. > :17:29.trouble? Your party president said the party would be wiped out and
:17:30. > :17:36.lose its MEPs. Is that helpful? If he did say that, then no, that's not
:17:37. > :17:40.terribly helpful. And let's not forget, every London council is
:17:41. > :17:43.having elections too. I have 40 minutes to get back to the
:17:44. > :17:48.having elections too. I have 40 Westminster, which calls for
:17:49. > :17:57.something drastic, like this. After 212 miles, but will be make it home
:17:58. > :18:10.for eight? We have made it, aided, 12 hours of pure politics. Happy
:18:11. > :18:16.elections, everyone. Adam Fleming impersonating Jack
:18:17. > :18:20.Bauer! Natalie Bennett is in our studio, welcome back. The Greens
:18:21. > :18:30.used to be the upcoming party in Britain, now it is UKIP. What went
:18:31. > :18:37.wrong? We are in a very good place, looking towards travelling our MEPs
:18:38. > :18:41.and we could be the fourth largest group in Parliament after these
:18:42. > :18:45.elections. More and more people are recognising we are the only party
:18:46. > :18:51.calling for real change, the only party saying we have two stop making
:18:52. > :18:58.poor, disadvantaged young people over the mistakes bankers. You have
:18:59. > :19:04.made a strong pro-environment stands synonymous with the politics of the
:19:05. > :19:09.left, why have you done that? Why should an equal minded Conservative
:19:10. > :19:16.vote for you? I think one of the reasons why many Conservatives, I
:19:17. > :19:19.met them in Chester where they are stopping coalbed methane
:19:20. > :19:26.exploration, lots of Conservatives are looking to vote for us beyond
:19:27. > :19:29.issues like fracking and the Green belt, and many of them are concerned
:19:30. > :19:34.about the fact we haven't reformed the banks. This morning we had the
:19:35. > :19:41.Bank of England chief coming out and saying we have a huge house price
:19:42. > :19:48.bubble and people recognise that many of the parties offering the
:19:49. > :19:57.same are not working. And yet the polls show that the hardline
:19:58. > :20:01.greenery is not winning. We are looking to travel our number of MEPs
:20:02. > :20:07.and we have people recognising that we have to change the way our
:20:08. > :20:10.economic 's, politics and society works so that everyone has
:20:11. > :20:17.sufficient resources within the limits of the one planet because one
:20:18. > :20:23.planet is all we have got. You want all electricity to be generated by
:20:24. > :20:28.renewables, is that right? So where would the electricity come from on
:20:29. > :20:35.days when the wind is not blowing? Most of the electricity is there. It
:20:36. > :20:39.is mature. We need to be hooked into a European wide grid, we need a
:20:40. > :20:45.smart grid that will allow for demand to be adjusted according to
:20:46. > :20:50.supply. So we would take French nuclear power, would we? We need to
:20:51. > :21:00.work with a partnership across Europe. We are being left behind and
:21:01. > :21:04.we are losing opportunities. 50% of German renewable electricity is
:21:05. > :21:15.owned by communities and it stays within communities, rather than the
:21:16. > :21:25.big six energy companies. So you have still got to take the French
:21:26. > :21:32.nuclear power. What we need to do... Nuclear is a dead technology,
:21:33. > :21:35.going down in the developed world. At the moment the Government
:21:36. > :21:41.proposes the most expensive proposal for Britain and yet the last two
:21:42. > :21:46.plans took 17 years to bring online, way too slow for what we need now.
:21:47. > :21:50.We know what the Green council would be like if you were to win more
:21:51. > :21:56.seats on Thursday because you run Brighton. Your own Green MP joined
:21:57. > :22:02.strikers against the council, the local Greens are at each other's
:22:03. > :22:07.throats, a council ridden with factionalism, attempts to raise
:22:08. > :22:11.council tax to 5%, attempted coups against the local Green leader by
:22:12. > :22:17.other Greens and you have had to bring in mediators. If you look at
:22:18. > :22:23.the life of people in Brighton and Hove, it has seen its visitor
:22:24. > :22:29.numbers go up by 50,000, it has become the top seaside resort in
:22:30. > :22:34.Britain, we have seen GCSE results going up significantly. These are
:22:35. > :22:39.the things affecting people's lives in Brighton and Hove. 60% of
:22:40. > :22:47.Brighton and Hove people think life is better and the Greens. We have a
:22:48. > :22:51.debate to be had from next year's election and perhaps we can have
:22:52. > :22:56.that debate next year. But you hold up Brighton as the way the city
:22:57. > :23:00.should be run? We have made huge progress, we have found money to be
:23:01. > :23:09.brought into the city to improve Green spaces. I was on the big ride
:23:10. > :23:14.in London yesterday, and we need to change our roads so they worked the
:23:15. > :23:22.people as well as cars. Which side of the picket line were you on in
:23:23. > :23:27.Brighton? With Caroline Lucas? I was in London, travelling around as I do
:23:28. > :23:35.most days. From Penzance to Newcastle and many areas in between.
:23:36. > :24:09.Probably a good move. Thank you. I'm joined now by the Conservative MP,
:24:10. > :24:19.the Lib Dem MP Simon Hughes and Sajid Javid. We want to see a
:24:20. > :24:24.European Union resolutely focused on the single market, free trade, and
:24:25. > :24:28.only we can bring about that change. Labour and Lib Dems are happy with
:24:29. > :24:35.the status quo, in fact they would like more integration, and a UKIP
:24:36. > :24:40.party can not deliver the change. Hilary Benn, at this stage positions
:24:41. > :24:44.usually romp home in European elections and no party has gone on
:24:45. > :24:51.to form a government without winning the European elections first. Now it
:24:52. > :24:57.suggests you could become second, you haven't handled UKIP very well
:24:58. > :25:01.either. There is a lot of alienation from politics around, globalisation
:25:02. > :25:07.has left some behind and people are concerned about that but UKIP will
:25:08. > :25:11.not provide the answer. Nigel Farage only talks about Europe. We are to
:25:12. > :25:16.hear it would not be in the interests of British people to come
:25:17. > :25:20.out of Europe. We do want a season change in Europe, for example we
:25:21. > :25:26.want longer periods when new member states come in. We don't think child
:25:27. > :25:31.tax credits should be paid to children not living in the UK, but
:25:32. > :25:38.Nigel Farage is also proposing to charge us when we see the GP, to
:25:39. > :25:43.halve maternity pay, and he wants a flat tax. UKIP is not the answer to
:25:44. > :25:47.the problems we face and we will continue to campaign as we have done
:25:48. > :25:57.to show that we are putting forward policies on energy prices, and in
:25:58. > :26:03.the end that is what people will look for. Simon Hughes, you will be
:26:04. > :26:11.lucky to come forth. The voters decide these things. Really? I never
:26:12. > :26:14.knew that. My response to the UKIP question is that they get support
:26:15. > :26:20.because they have never been in power, they are never likely. A bit
:26:21. > :26:30.like the way you used to never get into power. I accept that, but now
:26:31. > :26:34.we are in government. The reality is that laws made in Brussels, we make
:26:35. > :26:40.together by agreement, and it is the case from the Commons figures that
:26:41. > :26:50.only seven out of 100 laws are made in Brussels. Actually they have been
:26:51. > :26:54.shown not to be the only ones. 14 out of 100. If we were to come out
:26:55. > :27:04.of Europe, we would seriously disadvantage our economics and the
:27:05. > :27:09.jobs... 3 million jobs depend on the European Union. If the Conservatives
:27:10. > :27:14.comes third or even a poor second, it will show that people don't
:27:15. > :27:19.really trust your promise about European referendum. They have been
:27:20. > :27:24.there before, they don't trust you. What we have already shown, despite
:27:25. > :27:28.being in coalition with Liberal Democrats, we have shown progress on
:27:29. > :27:32.Europe, we have vetoed a European treaty when people said we
:27:33. > :27:37.wouldn't, we have cut the European budget which is something Liberal
:27:38. > :27:41.Democrats and Labour MEPs voted against, we cut it by ?8 billion.
:27:42. > :27:51.But overall we are still paying more. We have still cut it. We have
:27:52. > :27:57.taken Britain out of the bailout fund that Labour signed us up to. We
:27:58. > :28:02.are now going to take that same energy to Europe and renegotiate our
:28:03. > :28:11.relationship and let the British people decide in a referendum. Why
:28:12. > :28:14.has Ed Miliband become such a liability for your party? Even your
:28:15. > :28:21.own MPs are speaking out against him. If you look at the polls, we
:28:22. > :28:26.have been in the lead almost consistently. The voters will
:28:27. > :28:31.decide. Ed Miliband is a decent man, but what really marks him out is
:28:32. > :28:39.that he is thinking about the problems the country faces. Simon
:28:40. > :28:48.and Sajid both support the bedroom tax, we will scrap it. Ed Miliband
:28:49. > :28:57.said the energy market doesn't work for consumers, we will freeze energy
:28:58. > :29:06.prices while we change the system. So why are his ratings even lower
:29:07. > :29:10.than Nick Clegg's? They will be voted for next year in the general
:29:11. > :29:15.election, and if I were David Cameron I would ask myself this
:29:16. > :29:19.question - the economy is recovering, why is it that David
:29:20. > :29:24.Cameron and the Conservatives have been behind in the polls? Because in
:29:25. > :29:28.the end the big choice in British politics is between the two parties
:29:29. > :29:34.that say, if we sought the deficit everything is fine, and Labour who
:29:35. > :29:39.say that there are things about this country, the insecurity that has
:29:40. > :29:45.given rise for support for UKIP, and we are the ones talking about doing
:29:46. > :29:49.something about zero hours contracts. The more your leader
:29:50. > :29:59.bangs on about Europe, the worse your poll ratings get. He is out of
:30:00. > :30:04.the kilter with British people. It may not be a majority of people who
:30:05. > :30:09.think that we ought to stay in the European Union, but when you speak
:30:10. > :30:13.to people about it, people understand that we are better in
:30:14. > :30:17.them out. In the elections on Thursday, that is not about who runs
:30:18. > :30:20.Britain, that is for next year. In terms of the local councils, we have
:30:21. > :30:26.battles on the ground, like in my community, where we are trying to
:30:27. > :30:30.take it back from the Labour Party. Affordable housing has just not been
:30:31. > :30:36.delivered. We have delivered that in office and we had admitted to that.
:30:37. > :30:42.-- we are committed to that. Labour have actually demolished homes. So,
:30:43. > :30:47.people want more affordable homes. One issue which is behind people's
:30:48. > :30:51.antipathy towards immigrants is that they cannot get the affordable
:30:52. > :30:55.housing they need. We as a government have delivered more
:30:56. > :30:58.affordable housing in this Parliament -170,000 new properties
:30:59. > :31:10.earning and more, over the next three years. That does not work out
:31:11. > :31:17.that very many per year. Overall housing is a lot less than it was in
:31:18. > :31:20.2006. Let me tell you, under the Labour government, we lost nearly
:31:21. > :31:26.half a million affordable homes. Fewer built than under Mrs Thatcher
:31:27. > :31:31.or under the coalition. What is your last ditch message to the millions
:31:32. > :31:39.of Tory voters thinking of voting UKIP on Thursday? First, what I
:31:40. > :31:42.would say is, Ed Miliband also said that we should not tackle the
:31:43. > :31:46.deficit, it was not a priority. As a result of our resolute focus, we now
:31:47. > :31:51.have the fastest growing economy in the developed world, and more people
:31:52. > :31:55.employed than ever before. I am sure you will have more chance to say
:31:56. > :31:59.that at the general election, what is the answer to my question? We
:32:00. > :32:03.need a Europe which is focused on free trade and the single market.
:32:04. > :32:08.Labour and Lib Dems are happy with the status quo, we are not. We are
:32:09. > :32:15.the only party which can bring about change, UKIP cannot bring about any
:32:16. > :32:21.change. Hilary Benn, why not have a referendum on Europe? If you think
:32:22. > :32:25.like Nigel Farage that you should get out of Europe, I do not agree
:32:26. > :32:30.with him, because Britain's future lies in Europe. My message simply
:32:31. > :32:35.would be, vote for a party which wants to tackle insecurity in the
:32:36. > :32:40.workplace, to give more security to the 9 million people who are now
:32:41. > :32:45.privately renting, build more homes. What Simon has just said about the
:32:46. > :32:48.coalition's housing record, it has been appalling, the lowest level
:32:49. > :32:53.since Stanley Baldwin was Prime Minister. With Labour, you have got
:32:54. > :32:56.a party which will freeze energy prices, more childcare, policies
:32:57. > :33:02.which directly address the problems which people face. I think the
:33:03. > :33:05.public will realise that. UKIP offers absolutely nothing at all for
:33:06. > :33:11.the future of the country. You used to be in favour of a referendum? We
:33:12. > :33:14.are in favour, we voted for one, we have legislated for one. The next
:33:15. > :33:18.time there is a change between Britain and Europe, in the
:33:19. > :33:25.relationship, there will be a referendum. We have supported that.
:33:26. > :33:32.We voted for it. You would obviously want to vote yes in any referendum.
:33:33. > :33:38.We would. But if you had one now, it would be for coming out or staying
:33:39. > :33:40.in, and you are going to wait until there is another step son shall
:33:41. > :33:50.transfer of powers to Brussels, and then say to people, either vote for
:33:51. > :33:56.this substantial transfer or vote to leave! Of course they will vote to
:33:57. > :34:01.leave! Yes, we are not natural partners with the Conservatives, but
:34:02. > :34:05.we do not want to be distracted at the moment by a referendum in the
:34:06. > :34:12.future in relation to Europe. Because what we have done is built
:34:13. > :34:15.our own economy back. That has been the priority. We do not want
:34:16. > :34:21.artificial priorities. The Tories want an artificial date plucked out
:34:22. > :34:25.of the air for their own advantage. We say, let's get on with being
:34:26. > :34:28.positive about being in Europe, and many people on the doorstep
:34:29. > :34:33.absolutely understand that. Yesterday, the Energy Minister said
:34:34. > :34:36.that he thought the party would be willing to campaign for a British
:34:37. > :34:42.withdrawal from the EU if there was not a successful negotiation, a
:34:43. > :34:52.successful repatriation, do you agree with that? First of all, I am
:34:53. > :34:58.very optimistic... I got that I am going into these negotiations with
:34:59. > :35:04.confidence but Michael Fallon is one of your ministerial colleagues, he
:35:05. > :35:08.said that if we cannot get a deal on substantial repatriation, then the
:35:09. > :35:21.party should be willing to campaign for a
:35:22. > :35:28.If you don't get substantial repatriation, will you side with the
:35:29. > :35:32.Prime Minister? I may have only been in politics five years, but I won't
:35:33. > :35:43.answer that kind of hypothetical question. The important thing is...
:35:44. > :35:46.They are hypothetical. I go into negotiations with confidence. If you
:35:47. > :35:53.look at our track record, it suggests we will be successful.
:35:54. > :35:58.Hilary Benn, but is the difference between your attitude and the Lib
:35:59. > :36:02.Dems attitude to a referendum? We have been very clear if it is
:36:03. > :36:08.proposed in the future, and it is unlikely, then further powers will
:36:09. > :36:15.be transferred, we would be back to the British people in a referendum.
:36:16. > :36:20.It would be an in and out referendum. We would only be
:36:21. > :36:23.agreeing to a transfer of powers if we thought it was in the interests
:36:24. > :36:29.of Britain. Individual member states have a veto on that. We believe
:36:30. > :36:36.Britain's plays remains in Europe for economic reasons. But we also
:36:37. > :36:41.want to see some changes in our relationship with Europe, and
:36:42. > :36:48.electing Labour MEPs on Thursday will be a way of boosting that. In
:36:49. > :36:55.what way has everything you said there not been entirely synonymous
:36:56. > :37:01.with the Lib Dems. You asked me about labour's policy. We think this
:37:02. > :37:05.is the right thing. It is the dividing line between us and UKIP.
:37:06. > :37:09.They believe that Britain leaving the European Union would be good for
:37:10. > :37:14.the economy. The truth is it would be really bad for it. So many jobs
:37:15. > :37:17.and investment depends on being part of a larger market in an
:37:18. > :37:25.increasingly globalised world. We had to take action at home to
:37:26. > :37:28.provide... we seem to have lost our connection there. I have one more
:37:29. > :37:32.question for the locals. Give me your best pitch will stop what is
:37:33. > :37:38.the single most important reason people should vote for you in the
:37:39. > :37:42.local elections? Taxpayers money is just that, it doesn't belong to the
:37:43. > :37:47.politicians. We could do more with that money and get more for less. If
:37:48. > :37:50.you look at Conservatives, most haven't raised their council tax,
:37:51. > :37:55.and they have got more for less. That is what people deserve. We will
:37:56. > :38:00.produce the maximum amount possible in a affordable housing to meet the
:38:01. > :38:04.housing needs of Britain, instead of the richest minority having flats
:38:05. > :38:11.and houses that nobody can afford to stop you like I'm sorry we can't go
:38:12. > :38:14.to Hilary Benn. He was a vote Labour, and that will be a good
:38:15. > :38:19.reason. The balance has been restored. Thank you gentlemen. You
:38:20. > :38:25.are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland.
:38:26. > :38:32.Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. The polls open
:38:33. > :38:35.for the European Parliament elections this coming Thursday.
:38:36. > :38:40.Around 500 million citizens in Europe will elect 751 MEPs to serve
:38:41. > :38:45.them on the 22nd of May. Scotland is treated as one constituency, and we
:38:46. > :38:50.elect six MEPs. Last time, only a third of Scots bothered to vote, and
:38:51. > :38:52.turnout is generally low. But this time round, it's an election in
:38:53. > :38:56.which two referendums dominate discussion - the Scottish one and
:38:57. > :39:01.David Cameron's proposed one to stay or leave the EU. Will this boost
:39:02. > :39:04.turnout? Joining us this morning are four of the candidates for election
:39:05. > :39:09.to the European Parliament. David Martin for the Labour Party. Tasmina
:39:10. > :39:14.Ahmed Sheikh for the SNP. George Lyon for the Liberal Democrats. And
:39:15. > :39:17.Dr Ian Duncan for the Conservatives. At the start of their campaign,
:39:18. > :39:28.Green candidate Maggie Chapman said a vote for her party would help
:39:29. > :39:32.deliver "the politics of hope". We offer a politics of hope for
:39:33. > :39:36.Scotland. It is a politics that turns its back on nuclear
:39:37. > :39:40.aggression, and on the relic that is NATO. It is a politics that is
:39:41. > :39:45.welcoming and welcomes people regardless of where they come from,
:39:46. > :39:50.and it is a politics of NTS Doty, of standing up for the poor, not the
:39:51. > :39:51.people who have caused the economic crisis that people are suffering
:39:52. > :39:54.from. UKIP is also contesting the
:39:55. > :39:58.election, and have set their hopes on at least one seat. This is what
:39:59. > :40:04.candidate David Coburn said as they officially began their campaign. The
:40:05. > :40:10.main point of voting UKIP is to get us out of the European Union, to
:40:11. > :40:16.stay in the UK union, and also to make sure that we defend small
:40:17. > :40:20.businesses from government and also from the European Union. The top
:40:21. > :40:23.priority is to keep Scottish business and people are praised of
:40:24. > :40:28.the daft schemes that are going on in the European Union. Also to try
:40:29. > :40:33.to oppose anything of that nature, and get out of the European Union,
:40:34. > :40:35.which is my first objective. I want to make myself redundant.
:40:36. > :40:41.So without further ado, let's speak to the candidates. Thank you for
:40:42. > :40:45.being here. David Martin, you are quoted in a newspaper this morning
:40:46. > :40:51.as saying that independence is no barrier to EU membership? Are you
:40:52. > :40:57.coming around to the SNP's position? It is a strange view of a quote in a
:40:58. > :41:02.newspaper. But I said is that I would expect Scotland one day to
:41:03. > :41:09.become a member... An independent country. I said this on Brian
:41:10. > :41:12.Turner's programme on Friday. I said it was nonsensical to say we could
:41:13. > :41:19.negotiate for membership of the European Union union in 18 months.
:41:20. > :41:22.The presumption is you right in the EU, and we would have to negotiate
:41:23. > :41:27.our way out. That would take a long time. You were quoted as saying we
:41:28. > :41:33.wouldn't be forced into the Schengen and the euro. You like I said we
:41:34. > :41:38.would eventually negotiate our way out. But they would need to be a
:41:39. > :41:43.hiatus now membership. If you have to negotiate, it takes time. In
:41:44. > :41:46.negotiations, you have to make concessions. We haven't heard from
:41:47. > :41:52.the government is what we would concede in order to get out of the
:41:53. > :41:57.Schengen and the Eurozone. It would weaken Scotland's negotiating
:41:58. > :42:03.position if we became an independent nation. What are the SNP's redlines?
:42:04. > :42:09.Weigh it is important to say that we said from the beginning they would
:42:10. > :42:14.be a negotiation. A legal adviser said the 18 month period we set out
:42:15. > :42:18.is realistic. We look forward to having those negotiations as soon as
:42:19. > :42:21.we have a yes vote in September. Glaciations means you don't get
:42:22. > :42:28.everything you want. You have to give and take. Which area are you
:42:29. > :42:34.willing to give and take on? -- negotiations. What we would go to
:42:35. > :42:38.the table with is a programme for Scotland about getting the best
:42:39. > :42:42.possible deal, in the knowledge that Scotland has a tremendous amount to
:42:43. > :42:46.offer the European Union. We expect negotiations will be positive. Do
:42:47. > :42:49.you expect at the end of these the glaciations that Scotland will be in
:42:50. > :42:59.the same position as the UK is at this moment? -- negotiations. The UK
:43:00. > :43:04.is not exactly a positive member of the European Union. We will enter
:43:05. > :43:10.negotiations with the view of having positive positions, one which will
:43:11. > :43:13.be embraced. Negotiations have to start in order to come to
:43:14. > :43:18.conclusion, but I'm confident that Scotland has a amount to offer. I
:43:19. > :43:28.expect we will be embraced by the European Union for FAQs like we have
:43:29. > :43:33.so many oil reserves. Ultimately, as the Scottish Government says, you
:43:34. > :43:39.contribute a huge amount to Europe, so why wouldn't you want Scotland as
:43:40. > :43:44.a member? What we do know is that the president of the council said
:43:45. > :43:47.categorically that on independent Scotland becoming a third country,
:43:48. > :43:51.we would have to negotiate our way back in. The key issue is what is
:43:52. > :43:56.the Scottish Government willing to give up to get out entry back in?
:43:57. > :44:00.The United Kingdom is widely regarded as a detached member of the
:44:01. > :44:05.European Union because it has a pick and mix menu. It picks some of the
:44:06. > :44:09.good things and rejects others. The real question is whether other 20
:44:10. > :44:16.member states want another small semidetached member state? I think
:44:17. > :44:19.not. Which powers with a gift to Brussels and how much extra are they
:44:20. > :44:23.willing to pay to rejoin Europe? That is the key question. We haven't
:44:24. > :44:26.heard anything from the SNP about what they are willing to trade.
:44:27. > :44:32.Which mechanism would be deployed that would put Scotland outside of
:44:33. > :44:38.the EU given that as part of the UK, Scotland has been a member for over
:44:39. > :44:43.40 years? The treaties, all of the, and the United Kingdom is a member
:44:44. > :44:46.state. If we vote leave, they believe the treaties, and therefore
:44:47. > :44:51.we have to renegotiate our way back in. That is clear. Nowhere in any of
:44:52. > :44:55.the treaties is Scotland's recognised as a member state. We
:44:56. > :44:59.need to negotiate and get all of the 28 member states to agree to
:45:00. > :45:06.Scotland becoming a full member state. That is simple politics. The
:45:07. > :45:13.Liberal Democrats are all over the place. A senior Liberal Democrat MP
:45:14. > :45:23.says there is no mechanism to remove Scotland from the EU because they
:45:24. > :45:27.are part of the United Kingdom. You should never have said that
:45:28. > :45:34.membership would be automatic. He said that was a mistake. Do you
:45:35. > :45:38.agree? Won as a senior Liberal Democrat on Spanish radio, they said
:45:39. > :45:43.there was no mechanism under which you could remove Scotland from them
:45:44. > :45:50.and should have the EU? Did you make a mistake in not being honest with
:45:51. > :45:56.people. I have to say there is no automatic mechanism. That is the
:45:57. > :46:02.first time the SNP have admitted a mistake. They do not know how long
:46:03. > :46:06.that will take. Ultimately, those negotiations will
:46:07. > :46:09.sit -- will be successful and there is every chance that an independent
:46:10. > :46:19.Scotland will be a member of the EU and potentially could argue for
:46:20. > :46:28.that? I don't say it is automatic, I say... Can I return to the question?
:46:29. > :46:35.The first thing is I don't doubt Scotland can be a member. Then Mac
:46:36. > :46:42.is it gave everything it has by now, if it gave up all of those things,
:46:43. > :46:46.it would get in. The reality is that families will have to pay more tax
:46:47. > :46:51.and have less freedoms. All of these issues will be lost. If you want to
:46:52. > :46:59.give in in 18 months, give it all up, and you will get in. The demands
:47:00. > :47:02.being put forward would make Nigel Farage blush. You should pledge
:47:03. > :47:06.right now to sign up to every part of the EU, and not ask for the
:47:07. > :47:16.semidetached status but the UK in droves. -- that the UK enjoys.
:47:17. > :47:26.Why-mac you are all in agreement that when they talked about the
:47:27. > :47:34.Scottish becoming part of the EU, that was wrong. Every politician has
:47:35. > :47:39.spoken, whether it is the Spanish Foreign Minister or not, this will
:47:40. > :47:45.be a matter of politics. Oh have their separatist agendas, and they
:47:46. > :47:48.are concerned about that. English is not the Spanish Prime Minister's
:47:49. > :47:57.first-line witch. He said it would be extremely difficult. And it is my
:47:58. > :48:02.position. It is probably loose talk, but he might well be right. There is
:48:03. > :48:07.nothing certain in any of this. The Spanish group to gain and say we
:48:08. > :48:21.don't want to encourage this. -- the Spanish could dig in. I don't see
:48:22. > :48:25.other countries signing up to this. We're not taking before benefits of
:48:26. > :48:31.members of the be it a kingdom. We have food banks in Scotland which we
:48:32. > :48:34.should be ashamed of. There is a rise in the use of food banks.
:48:35. > :48:41.Westminster refused to take any money from the EU that was on offer.
:48:42. > :48:45.We are spending 500 million euros, that's 443 euros, and we decided we
:48:46. > :48:50.wouldn't take a penny to assist the peace looks like people in Scotland
:48:51. > :48:57.who are suffering hardship due to the cuts made by the Conservative
:48:58. > :49:03.government. We are not taking... If you don't mind, I would like it if
:49:04. > :49:07.people didn't speak over each other. If I may finish my point, there is
:49:08. > :49:12.much we can gain by membership of the European Union. This is not a
:49:13. > :49:23.virtue of us being part of the United Kingdom, which is not working
:49:24. > :49:26.for Scotland. If you want to be a constructive member of the EU, you
:49:27. > :49:33.have to sign up for all elements of it. Westminster is not working for
:49:34. > :49:45.Scotland, and certainly not on the EU stage. Why wouldn't Scotland want
:49:46. > :49:52.to be a full member of the European Union in?
:49:53. > :50:01.It is our position to retain a currency union, and we would be
:50:02. > :50:07.going into the EU with that. Doesn't matter if this takes longer than 18
:50:08. > :50:13.months? Yes, because you would have removal of investment, and this
:50:14. > :50:16.uncertainty, foreign students, foreign nationals living in this
:50:17. > :50:25.country whose status would not be clear. It will be chaotic if we
:50:26. > :50:29.cannot do this within 18 months. Professor James Crawford did say he
:50:30. > :50:38.thought the 18 month timetable was realistic. He said UN membership
:50:39. > :50:46.will be straightforward. In the case of the EU there are things to
:50:47. > :50:58.negotiate. These are not automatic. I didn't say automatic. He did say
:50:59. > :51:02.18 months seems realistic. He then went on to clarify. I don't believe
:51:03. > :51:08.18 months is realistic. If you take the Czech republic when it separated
:51:09. > :51:11.from tobacco, they required 30 treaties and 20,000 legal agreements
:51:12. > :51:17.in order to separate two countries that went through a so-called Velvet
:51:18. > :51:21.divorce. We will be doing all of this between Scotland and the rest
:51:22. > :51:28.of the UK within 18 months, negotiating with the U. This was the
:51:29. > :51:36.same EU that was able to subsume southern Germany overnight. Hang
:51:37. > :51:41.on, you did not want me to interrupts let me finish my point.
:51:42. > :51:46.East Germany joined the EU by joining Germany. So there were no
:51:47. > :51:50.negotiations required. The territory of the EU is determined by the
:51:51. > :52:02.territory of the member states. If Scotland leaves the UK we are out of
:52:03. > :52:06.the U. The referendum threatens jobs and investment in Scotland. What is
:52:07. > :52:10.important to people in Scotland right now is to protect jobs. We
:52:11. > :52:16.have access to 500 million citizens in the EU and it is about time we
:52:17. > :52:21.stood up for the people of Scotland. Let's talk about that in out
:52:22. > :52:25.referendum. Your party is offering a referendum on EU membership if your
:52:26. > :52:32.party is returned at the 2015 general election. Right now, I think
:52:33. > :52:37.we can make a big change. We are bringing about reform, we've begun
:52:38. > :52:44.to recognise what some of the key areas will be. Financial services,
:52:45. > :52:48.oil exploration and so forth. And you think it will be difficult for
:52:49. > :52:55.these negotiations to take place with an independent Scotland. We are
:52:56. > :53:00.a member of the EU, those negotiations are straightforward.
:53:01. > :53:07.They aren't if leaders don't want to go along with them. That's where it
:53:08. > :53:13.becomes interesting. We did not manage to secure the first cut to
:53:14. > :53:19.the EU budget without joining together with the pins and the
:53:20. > :53:24.Swedes. Michael Fallon has said the Conservative Party is willing to
:53:25. > :53:25.campaign for withdrawal from the EU if it couldn't successfully
:53:26. > :53:30.negotiate its membership. So can if it couldn't successfully
:53:31. > :53:34.the UK to exit the UK if it couldn't successfully
:53:35. > :53:53.the Prime Minister party support the idea of the
:53:54. > :53:59.referendum then? party support the idea of the
:54:00. > :54:05.part of the coalition to guarantee party support the idea of the
:54:06. > :54:07.be given a choice and there would party support the idea of the
:54:08. > :54:28.a referendum. We believed it was Administration. We increased
:54:29. > :54:34.investment and education, tackling youth unemployment and transport. We
:54:35. > :54:37.can achieve reform from within by seeking allies. That is where we
:54:38. > :54:41.fundamentally disagree with the Conservatives. We're better off
:54:42. > :54:45.within Europe if we people in work. You refuse to asked
:54:46. > :54:56.people in work. You refuse to asked people, you refuse to give them a
:54:57. > :54:57.choice. You are part of the Coalition Government and we believe
:54:58. > :55:01.you should Coalition Government and we believe
:55:02. > :55:07.parties have said the same thing but they refuse to do so.
:55:08. > :55:08.parties have said the same thing but Prime Minister had a cast iron
:55:09. > :55:19.agreement for the Lisbon Treaty he renege on that. What he is saying
:55:20. > :55:21.right now is if we are elected in the general election, there will be
:55:22. > :55:25.a referendum. the general election, there will be
:55:26. > :55:29.people to have a choice. Just like the referendum you are having. Given
:55:30. > :55:35.that your party is keen on the referendum you are having. Given
:55:36. > :55:41.the people of Scotland a referendum on whether to stay or leave the U?
:55:42. > :55:49.This is not looking much like a on whether to stay or leave the U?
:55:50. > :56:01.was going to make was one about the NI referendum. It has been said
:56:02. > :56:11.there was no reference in that to a mechanism for that. Currently, there
:56:12. > :56:19.is no appetite for a referendum on the EU in Scotland. If I may and so
:56:20. > :56:24.the question... Just a second. You say there is no appetite, but
:56:25. > :56:32.actually the most recent opinion polls show only 48% support the US
:56:33. > :56:42.in Scotland. Not even a majority of people in Scotland support the EU at
:56:43. > :56:47.this stage. I think we will find the position will greatly differ when
:56:48. > :56:51.the referendum... If I might finish the sentence, when the referendum
:56:52. > :56:57.takes place in September and we have the chance to speak only for
:56:58. > :57:02.Scotland. One of your MPs told the BBC in March that once a deal was
:57:03. > :57:09.negotiated on Europe as part of an independent Scotland, there might be
:57:10. > :57:16.an act is certain logic to holding a referendum. Well, the best thing
:57:17. > :57:19.about independence is we will be allowed to have democracy in
:57:20. > :57:23.Scotland, at this moment in time we do not have the opportunity to do
:57:24. > :57:30.so. So once you have negotiated your position in Europe you don't think
:57:31. > :57:35.there is a sense in offering... You have to pay more to be part in the
:57:36. > :57:38.club. We should at least have the people of Scotland whether they want
:57:39. > :57:43.to join under those new terms and conditions. I think once we have the
:57:44. > :57:47.referendum and we take stock and we have the opportunity to find a speak
:57:48. > :57:51.for Scotland and to finally backed the Scotland... At the moment, I
:57:52. > :57:56.would like to have the chance to be taking a seat at the table in the EU
:57:57. > :58:03.to negotiate for Scotland, because Scotland is losing out currently. In
:58:04. > :58:11.terms of jobs and investment. We don't participate in the Park -- the
:58:12. > :58:26.youth employment scheme to assist young people getting into jobs. We
:58:27. > :58:30.don't take advantage of funds. It is not so long ago that your MEP Alan
:58:31. > :58:34.Smith said there should indeed be a referendum on Scotland's
:58:35. > :58:40.relationship with the EU. Now you have flipped and flopped. You are no
:58:41. > :58:51.longer going to asked about membership because you no longer
:58:52. > :58:54.trust them. More powers to Brussels is part of the negotiations. You
:58:55. > :59:02.have to ask people if they agree with that. That is conjecture on
:59:03. > :59:11.your port -- part, we have not even entered negotiations. These
:59:12. > :59:17.gentlemen well I hope the batting for Scotland when we enter those
:59:18. > :59:23.negotiations. David Martin, will you be batting for Scotland's I will be
:59:24. > :59:28.on Thursday to win the European elections, and we haven't actually
:59:29. > :59:32.talked about what we going to do if we are elected. My party is clear
:59:33. > :59:41.that we do not want to use it to campaign for in and out the European
:59:42. > :59:45.Union. We want to use it to decide on job opportunities for people in
:59:46. > :59:51.Scotland, how we continue to reform the banking sector, how we tackle
:59:52. > :59:55.tax evasion and avoidance, free trade deals that benefit the rest of
:59:56. > :00:05.the world, balanced by environmental and labour 's data was -- labour
:00:06. > :00:15.issues. Do you not think the public want a say on the future of Scotland
:00:16. > :00:21.in EE U? Yes, my party is clear on what we would do. The real concerns
:00:22. > :00:24.of people is jobs, security and the economy. That is why we argue
:00:25. > :00:32.passionately that staying in Europe is a way to do that. There are
:00:33. > :00:35.thousands of jobs that are linked to our membership of the European
:00:36. > :00:44.Union. We are the fastest-growing economy in Europe at the moment,
:00:45. > :00:50.and... Just one second. Another issue is immigration and I want to
:00:51. > :00:54.ask about that. Scotland seems less resistant to immigration than other
:00:55. > :01:02.parts of the UK, but a poll has said they do want fewer migrants in
:01:03. > :01:05.Scotland. If you look at the figures for the UK, we reckon there are
:01:06. > :01:14.roughly 2.3 million migrants living in the UK and 2.2 million British
:01:15. > :01:20.citizens living elsewhere in Europe, so it is almost even. They often
:01:21. > :01:24.plug skills gaps, they are helping universities by being students. I
:01:25. > :01:29.actually think they contribute significantly to our economy, so I
:01:30. > :01:35.am not in favour of tackling immigration the way it has been
:01:36. > :01:40.described by UKIP. What I would say is the problem with immigration
:01:41. > :01:44.sometimes is an scrupulous employers abuse migrants to undercut wages and
:01:45. > :01:55.conditions. That is why some of the resentment comes from. We've said
:01:56. > :01:59.the minimum fine for an employer abusing migrants would be ?15,000.
:02:00. > :02:03.We had said there should be some co-labour standards to stop
:02:04. > :02:11.employers using migrant labour to undercut conditions. So, British
:02:12. > :02:15.jobs for British workers? No, no, the opposite.
:02:16. > :02:15.jobs for British workers? No, no, economy but we should make sure
:02:16. > :02:21.basic social standards are upheld. There are couple of things to
:02:22. > :02:29.stress. People coming here speculatively to
:02:30. > :02:33.try to find jobs, People coming here speculatively to
:02:34. > :02:39.problem. David and I were People coming here speculatively to
:02:40. > :02:45.Party should have put in transition People coming here speculatively to
:02:46. > :02:50.given at option again with Bulgaria and remain near and they did not.
:02:51. > :02:57.But figures show the fear of people coming from these countries is much
:02:58. > :02:59.greater than the reality. The reality is, transition controls make
:03:00. > :03:03.a difference and they should have been adopted
:03:04. > :03:06.a difference and they should have situation. We can argue mistakes
:03:07. > :03:12.were made in the past. Should there be more or
:03:13. > :03:14.were made in the past. Should there EU going forward's we do
:03:15. > :03:14.were made in the past. Should there there is a skills gap in so many
:03:15. > :03:19.parts of the country. We've got there is a skills gap in so many
:03:20. > :03:24.make sure migrants are still a vibrant and significant part of
:03:25. > :03:26.Oracle on me. We need them to fill the jobs that we find are
:03:27. > :03:34.Oracle on me. We need them to fill done. Surely the logical thing is
:03:35. > :03:38.that we need more of them. What we don't want is people
:03:39. > :03:42.the hope of finding a job. Benefit tourism is a risk
:03:43. > :03:48.the hope of finding a job. Benefit British taxpayers.
:03:49. > :03:54.the hope of finding a job. Benefit across Europe is fundamental to the
:03:55. > :04:00.the hope of finding a job. Benefit tourism, because what we want to
:04:01. > :04:05.here and work, pay taxes and contribute to our society. How many
:04:06. > :04:10.here and work, pay taxes and people are coming here to be benefit
:04:11. > :04:17.here and work, pay taxes and tourists's recent -- benefit
:04:18. > :04:33.tourists? They are actually a net benefit to
:04:34. > :04:35.tourists? They are actually a net certainly evidence that this
:04:36. > :04:36.tourists? They are actually a net problem. We want to send clear
:04:37. > :04:41.signal you are willing to make a
:04:42. > :04:47.contribution you are willing to make a
:04:48. > :04:49.else does. The real challenge is you are willing to make a
:04:50. > :04:55.reform Europe to make sure we get growth across Europe. So that some
:04:56. > :05:00.of the countries where these people are coming from grow their own
:05:01. > :05:05.economies. That will benefit the UK because 50% of our exports are to
:05:06. > :05:13.the European Union. So reforming the services and the energy market,
:05:14. > :05:19.these are the big challenges. Do we need more or less immigration to the
:05:20. > :05:27.EU? This is anti-devolution and anti immigration. We want a welcome and
:05:28. > :05:38.socially just Scotland, and let -- let's be clear, in terms of
:05:39. > :05:45.immigration, there is parity. The population declined in Scotland. Do
:05:46. > :05:51.we need more migrants in Scotland? We need to welcome people to
:05:52. > :06:04.Scotland, and the rich tapestry that makes up Scotland. You would
:06:05. > :06:08.remember when the rules were relaxed in terms of where many and and
:06:09. > :06:12.Bulgarians, there was concern that would be an influx of millions of
:06:13. > :06:17.people. The figures have gone down by 4000. Let's be clear, Scotland is
:06:18. > :06:21.a welcoming and inclusive society. We want to be on the world stage
:06:22. > :06:31.with that in mind. We want to welcome people to come here and work
:06:32. > :06:34.here. Everybody else has talked about reform. What kind of reform
:06:35. > :06:40.would you argue for if you were elected? Reform is absolutely
:06:41. > :06:45.necessary, and we will work with our partners to ensure that happens.
:06:46. > :06:53.Whether that is in relation... Well, we will be having partners in the
:06:54. > :06:57.referendum in September. I am asking what happens now if you are elected
:06:58. > :07:04.on Thursday? The reforms are you pushing for? We want to have parity
:07:05. > :07:08.in what happens in the European institutions, and winning powers
:07:09. > :07:13.that they should be locally to benefit the people of Scotland, and
:07:14. > :07:18.looking at the petition we started of having one seat for the European
:07:19. > :07:22.Parliament in Brussels. You have no partners in the European Parliament,
:07:23. > :07:28.and are so is as -- isolated you have to sit with the green group. To
:07:29. > :07:31.come back to my previous point, but is it that Westminster has
:07:32. > :07:40.negotiated for Scotland in the EU? We have the worst... You keep
:07:41. > :07:48.talking about Westminster. We have the worst deal for our farmers in
:07:49. > :07:52.Scotland than any state in the EU. He indicated he would give up
:07:53. > :07:57.Scotland's share in the rebate to support farmers. Would you support
:07:58. > :08:00.that? Weigh when we have independence, the rest of the UK
:08:01. > :08:08.will also have to negotiate their position. Let's talk about the
:08:09. > :08:13.Common agricultural policy. The Scotland get a good deal? Pool-mac
:08:14. > :08:19.Scotland gets a reasonable deal. We will deliver some way around ?4.1
:08:20. > :08:29.billion to Scotland over the coming years. Currently we have the second
:08:30. > :08:33.highest payments in Europe. We negotiated to make sure we had all
:08:34. > :08:37.of the powers in Holyrood. Unfortunately, the minister has been
:08:38. > :08:43.delaying for months, and we still don't know how the Scottish see a
:08:44. > :08:49.people work. Northern and Welsh farmers already know. We saw an
:08:50. > :08:55.increase in development funding. We also negotiated all of this for
:08:56. > :09:01.Scottish priorities for young entrants, which was our main
:09:02. > :09:06.priority, and also the priorities to tackle farm subsidies. In all of
:09:07. > :09:12.these areas, indeed Richard welcomed the deal, when it was introduced.
:09:13. > :09:17.The UK Government dividing up the money across the UK in a way we are
:09:18. > :09:20.disadvantage is Scotland because Scotland has a stronger case for
:09:21. > :09:26.more money than other areas of the UK. You have to remember that we
:09:27. > :09:30.have a fully devolved system, which is unusual compared to the rest of
:09:31. > :09:35.Europe. The country has one particular system. We have been able
:09:36. > :09:37.to recognise Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to create
:09:38. > :09:42.differences and recognised local needs. That is significant. As
:09:43. > :09:48.Scotland's needs being met with Mac or Mac I think they are being
:09:49. > :09:53.addressed in one way or another. What we are seeing is that
:09:54. > :09:58.priorities for farmers are met, and we don't know whether as the rocket
:09:59. > :10:06.has delayed despite telling farmers what they can expect. I expect we
:10:07. > :10:10.will be told after the referendum. Scotland was entitled to 230 million
:10:11. > :10:13.euros being paid to it, and there was a cross-party agreement that
:10:14. > :10:17.should come directed to Scotland will stop notwithstanding,
:10:18. > :10:20.Westminster decided to keep the money for themselves and split
:10:21. > :10:22.amongst the four regions, when it was Scotland that required the
:10:23. > :10:29.money. There was a cross-party agreement. The reality is that
:10:30. > :10:35.Scotland would have had 1 billion extra euros. A full review has been
:10:36. > :10:42.offered in 2016 with implementation. It is now been
:10:43. > :10:45.conceded that they would have to negotiate back into Europe to hold
:10:46. > :10:51.onto what we currently with no opportunity until 2022 negotiate a
:10:52. > :10:56.battle sediment for Scottish farmers. The real danger is that the
:10:57. > :11:01.formula used for new member statements fix state make --
:11:02. > :11:11.statements is to get 20% of the settlement payments across Europe.
:11:12. > :11:17.Is Scotland disadvantaged by the way the CAP money is being divided? When
:11:18. > :11:20.I was first elected, I was very critical. We have reformed to this
:11:21. > :11:25.policy. We are now in a position where payment of farmers is made on
:11:26. > :11:29.the basis that single farm payment is no longer linked to production.
:11:30. > :11:32.We don't have the overproduction we used to have in agriculture.
:11:33. > :11:36.Inevitably, that means some of the subsidies have gone down. The
:11:37. > :11:41.situation has changed in relation to farming. I thought Britain got a
:11:42. > :11:48.good deal at the end... The Scotland get a good deal? Scotland is ?1
:11:49. > :11:52.billion out. Everybody is down. The point is that George was making is
:11:53. > :11:55.that if we were in into panic country, we would have a nap or
:11:56. > :11:59.cultural budget slashed if we were part of the European, because that
:12:00. > :12:05.is the pattern across the whole of the union. Countries have seen that
:12:06. > :12:10.they are not getting the same share of the agricultural money. More
:12:11. > :12:15.scaremongering that we hear from the Westminster parties. It is not
:12:16. > :12:22.matter of fact. It is entire conjecture on your part. It is about
:12:23. > :12:25.time that Scotland had the opportunity to speak for herself on
:12:26. > :12:35.an EU state, and come September and a yes vote, we will have that
:12:36. > :12:38.opportunity. As I said, the formula that has been used for the last ten
:12:39. > :12:45.countries that have joined the European Union in terms of CAP
:12:46. > :12:51.funny, if that was the outcome of Scotland's negotiation, that would
:12:52. > :12:55.be ?300 million going to Scottish farming. That is not a prospect
:12:56. > :13:02.farmers would be supporting. Very briefly. The big risk is that
:13:03. > :13:06.farmers will not be subsidised. It is bad for farmers and Scotland.
:13:07. > :13:08.That is what will happen in that referendum. But we thank you for
:13:09. > :13:11.being here. Before we go, just a reminder. There
:13:12. > :13:14.are three other parties on your ballot paper for the European
:13:15. > :13:21.Election - Britain First, the BNP, and No2EU. Voting takes place on
:13:22. > :13:25.Thursday the 22nd of May. The result won't be out until the following
:13:26. > :13:29.Sunday, in line with the rest of Europe. More details about all the
:13:30. > :13:31.parties and candidates, and the election generally, is on BBC
:13:32. > :13:44.Scotland news website. That's all from us this week. I'll
:13:45. > :13:54.be back at the same time next week. Until then, goodbye.