:00:39. > :00:42.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:46.Senior Liberal Democrats say the public has lost trust in Nick Clegg.
:00:47. > :00:49.They call for him to go after Thursday's local election meltdown
:00:50. > :00:54.and before a likely Euro vote catastrophe tonight.
:00:55. > :00:57.That is our top story. Labour and Tories struggle to cope
:00:58. > :01:01.with the UKIP insurgency as Nigel Farage toasts his party's success
:01:02. > :01:08.and declares the UKIP fox is in the Westminster henhouse.
:01:09. > :01:12.And we all have to eat, but should politicians wait until the cameras
:01:13. > :01:15.are switched off? Coming up on Sunday Politics
:01:16. > :01:18.Scotland. After the fire in the landmark Mackintosh Building at
:01:19. > :01:20.Glasgow School of Art, we'll speak live to the Culture Secretary Fiona
:01:21. > :01:31.Hyslop. hour.
:01:32. > :01:39.Cooped up in the Sunday Politics henhouse, our own boot should --
:01:40. > :01:44.bunch of headless chickens. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh. The
:01:45. > :01:49.Liberal Democrats lost over 300 councillors on Thursday, on top of
:01:50. > :01:53.the losses in previous years, the local government base has been
:01:54. > :01:55.whittled away in many parts of the country. Members of the European
:01:56. > :01:59.Parliament will face a similar comment when the results are
:02:00. > :02:05.announced tonight. A small but growing chorus of Liberal Democrats
:02:06. > :02:09.have called on Nick Clegg to go. This is what the candidate in West
:02:10. > :02:16.Dorset had to say. People know that locally we worked
:02:17. > :02:20.incredibly hard on their councils and as their MPs, but Nick Clegg is
:02:21. > :02:27.perceived to have not been trustworthy in leadership. Do you
:02:28. > :02:34.trust him? He has lacked bone on significant issues that are the core
:02:35. > :02:37.values of our party. This is how the party president
:02:38. > :02:44.responded. At this time, it would be foolish
:02:45. > :02:48.for us as a party to turn in on ourselves. What has separated us
:02:49. > :02:53.from the Conservatives is, while they have been like cats in a sack,
:02:54. > :02:59.we have stood united, and that is what we will continue to do. The
:03:00. > :03:04.major reason why is because we consented to the coalition, unlike
:03:05. > :03:14.the Conservatives. We had a vote, and a full conference.
:03:15. > :03:21.Is there a growing question over Nick Clegg's leadership? Different
:03:22. > :03:25.people have different views. My own view is I need to consult my own
:03:26. > :03:28.activists and members before coming to a conclusion. I am looking at
:03:29. > :03:34.holding a meeting for us to discuss the issue. I have been told by some
:03:35. > :03:37.people they do not think a meeting is required, they think he should
:03:38. > :03:41.stay, and other people have decided he should go. As a responsible
:03:42. > :03:47.Democrat, I should consult the members here before coming to my
:03:48. > :03:53.conclusions. What is your view at the moment? I have got to listen to
:03:54. > :04:00.my members. But you must have some kind of you. Because I have an open
:04:01. > :04:06.mind, I do not think he must stay, I am willing to say I have not made my
:04:07. > :04:11.mind up. From a news point of view, that is my official position. I can
:04:12. > :04:17.assure you there is not much news in that! I said earlier I am not going
:04:18. > :04:23.to say he must go must stay, I am consulting my members. But you must
:04:24. > :04:27.have some kind of view of your own before you have listened to your
:04:28. > :04:32.members. There are people who are wrongfully sanctioned and end up
:04:33. > :04:36.using food banks, I am upset about that, because we should not
:04:37. > :04:41.allow... I do not mind having a sanctioning system, that I get
:04:42. > :04:46.constituents who are put in this position, we should not accept that.
:04:47. > :04:51.I rebel on the issue of a referendum on membership of the EU. I am also
:04:52. > :04:56.concerned about the way the rules have been changed in terms of how
:04:57. > :05:03.parents are treated in their ability to take children to funerals out of
:05:04. > :05:07.school time. There are questions about the leader's responsible T for
:05:08. > :05:12.those policies. Nick Clegg has made it clear he is a staunch
:05:13. > :05:17.pro-European, he wants the Liberal Democrats to be in, he does not want
:05:18. > :05:21.a referendum, if you lose a chunk of your MEPs tonight, what does that
:05:22. > :05:26.say about how in June you are with written public opinion? There are
:05:27. > :05:31.issues with how you publish your policies. I do not agree 100% with
:05:32. > :05:37.what the government is doing or with what Nick Clegg says. I do think we
:05:38. > :05:43.should stay within the EU, because the alternative means we have less
:05:44. > :05:48.control over our borders. There is a presentational issue, because what
:05:49. > :05:52.UKIP want, to leave the EU, is worse in terms of control of borders,
:05:53. > :05:59.which is their main reason for wanting to leave, which is strange.
:06:00. > :06:03.There are debate issues, but I have got personal concerns, I do worry
:06:04. > :06:08.about the impact on my constituents when they face wrongful sanctions.
:06:09. > :06:13.You have said that. A fellow Liberal Democrat MP has compared Nick Clegg
:06:14. > :06:19.to a general at the Somme, causing carnage amongst the troops. I am
:06:20. > :06:24.more interested in the policy issues, are we doing the right
:06:25. > :06:28.things? I do think the coalition was essential, we had to rescue the
:06:29. > :06:32.country from financial problems. My own view on the issue of student
:06:33. > :06:39.finance, we did the right thing, in accordance with the pledge, which
:06:40. > :06:41.was to get a better system, more students are going to university,
:06:42. > :06:47.and more from disadvantaged backgrounds. But there are issues.
:06:48. > :06:51.But Nick Clegg survive as leader through till the next election? It
:06:52. > :06:57.depends what odds you will give me! If you are not going to give me is,
:06:58. > :07:03.I am not going to get! If you listen to John hemming, he has got nothing
:07:04. > :07:10.to worry about. He does have something to worry about, they lost
:07:11. > :07:16.300 seats, on the uniform swing, you would see people like Vince cable
:07:17. > :07:19.and Simon Hughes lose their seats. But nobody wants to be the one to
:07:20. > :07:26.we'll be nice, they would rather wait until after the next election,
:07:27. > :07:32.and then rebuild the party. Yes, there is no chance of him walking
:07:33. > :07:35.away. Somebody like Tim Farron or Vince Cable, whoever the successor
:07:36. > :07:40.is, though have to close the dagger ten months before an election, do
:07:41. > :07:45.they want that spectacle? If I were Nick Clegg, I would walk away, it is
:07:46. > :07:50.reasonably obvious that the left-wing voters who defect had
:07:51. > :07:54.towards the Labour Party in 2010 will not return while he is leader.
:07:55. > :08:01.And anything he was going to achieve historically, the already has done.
:08:02. > :08:05.Unlike David Miliband, sorry, Ed Miliband or David Cameron, he has
:08:06. > :08:10.transformed the identity of the party, they are in government. Had
:08:11. > :08:13.it not been for him, they would have continued to be the main protest
:08:14. > :08:19.party, rather than a party of government. So he has got to take it
:08:20. > :08:24.all the way through until the election. If he left now, he would
:08:25. > :08:29.look like he was a tenant in the conservative house. What we are
:08:30. > :08:34.seeing is an operation to destabilise Nick Clegg, but it is a
:08:35. > :08:38.Liberal Democrat one, so it is chaotic. There are people who have
:08:39. > :08:43.never really been reconciled to the coalition and to Nick Clegg, they
:08:44. > :08:50.are pushing for this. What is Nick Clegg going to do, and Tim Farron?
:08:51. > :08:55.-- what is Vince Cable going to do? Vince Cable is in China, on a
:08:56. > :09:04.business trip. It is like John Major's toothache in 1990. What is
:09:05. > :09:09.Tim Farron doing? He is behind Nick Clegg, because he knows that his
:09:10. > :09:11.best chances of being leader are as the Westland candidate, the person
:09:12. > :09:20.who picks up the mess in a year. Vince Cable's only opportunity is on
:09:21. > :09:24.this side of the election. But you say they are not a party of
:09:25. > :09:31.government, but what looks more likely is overall the -- is no
:09:32. > :09:35.overall control. You might find a common mission looking appealing.
:09:36. > :09:41.They could still hold the balance of power. A lot of people in the Labour
:09:42. > :09:47.Party might say, let's just have a minority government. 30 odds and
:09:48. > :09:54.sods who will not turn up to vote. If they want to be up until 3am
:09:55. > :09:57.every morning, be like that! When you were in short trousers, it was
:09:58. > :10:06.like that every night, it was great fun! The Liberal Democrats will not
:10:07. > :10:11.provide confidence to a minority government, they will pull the plug
:10:12. > :10:19.and behave ruthlessly. Does Nick leg lead the Liberal Democrats into the
:10:20. > :10:23.next election? Yes. Yes. Yes. I am sorry, Nick Clegg, you are
:10:24. > :10:27.finished! We will speak to Paddy Ashdown in the second part of the
:10:28. > :10:31.show to speak about the Liberal Democrats. The UKIP insurgency could
:10:32. > :10:34.not deliver the promised earthquake, but it produced enough shock waves
:10:35. > :10:40.to discombobulated the established parties. They are struggling to work
:10:41. > :10:49.out how to deal with them. We watched it all unfold.
:10:50. > :10:56.Behind the scenes of any election night is intensely busy. Those in
:10:57. > :10:59.charge of party strategy and logistics want their people focused,
:11:00. > :11:03.working with purpose and rehearsed to make sure their spin on the
:11:04. > :11:10.results is what viewers remember and take on board. A bit of a buzz of
:11:11. > :11:16.activity inside the BBC's studio, kept and primed for the results.
:11:17. > :11:20.What this does not show due is the exterior doubles up for hospital
:11:21. > :11:24.dramas like Holby City, there are doorways that are mock-ups of
:11:25. > :11:27.accident and emergency, but the electorate will discover which of
:11:28. > :11:30.the parties they have put into intensive care, which ones are
:11:31. > :11:37.coming out of recovery and which ones are in rude health. We joined
:11:38. > :11:44.David Dimbleby. Good evening, welcome to the BBC's new election
:11:45. > :11:48.centre. When three big beasts become for on the political field, things
:11:49. > :11:52.have changed. Eric Pickles says we will be seen off next year, we will
:11:53. > :11:57.see you at Westminster! This party is going to break through next year,
:11:58. > :12:02.and you never know, we might even hold the balance of power. Old
:12:03. > :12:05.messages that gave voters in excuses to go elsewhere on the ballot paper
:12:06. > :12:10.exposed the older players to questions from within their ranks.
:12:11. > :12:13.In the hen house of the House of Commons, the fox that wants to get
:12:14. > :12:20.in has ruffled feathers. The reason they have had amazing success, a
:12:21. > :12:26.rapid rise, partly what Chuka Umunna says about being a repository, but
:12:27. > :12:31.they have also managed to sound like human beings, and that his Nigel
:12:32. > :12:35.Farage's eight victory. For some conservatives, a pact was the best
:12:36. > :12:40.form of defence. It would be preferable if all members of UKIP
:12:41. > :12:45.and voters became Tories overnight. That seems to be an ambitious
:12:46. > :12:51.proposition. Therefore, we need to do something that welcomes them on
:12:52. > :12:56.board in a slightly different way. Labour had successes, but nobody but
:12:57. > :13:00.they're wizards of Spain was completely buying a big success
:13:01. > :13:04.story. Gaffes behind the scenes and strategic errors were levelled at
:13:05. > :13:10.those who have managed the campaign. They have played a clever game, you
:13:11. > :13:13.shuffle bedecked around, and if UKIP does quite well but not well enough,
:13:14. > :13:20.that helps Labour get in. That kind of mindset will not win the general
:13:21. > :13:24.election, and we saw that in the tap ticks and strategy, and that is why,
:13:25. > :13:30.on our leaflets for the European elections, we chose deliberately not
:13:31. > :13:37.to attack UKIP, that was a bad error. Not so, so somebody who has
:13:38. > :13:41.been in that spotlight. If you look at the electoral maths, UKIP will
:13:42. > :13:45.still be aiming at the Tories in a general election. They are the
:13:46. > :13:49.second party in Rotherham, Labour will always hold what the room, it
:13:50. > :13:54.is safe, there is no point being second in a safe seat. UKIP have
:13:55. > :14:00.taken Castle Point, a Tory seat they will target. The question for the
:14:01. > :14:04.next election, can they make a challenge? The Tories will be under
:14:05. > :14:09.the gun from UKIP. The substance of these results is UKIP not in
:14:10. > :14:13.government, they do not have any MPs, they do not run a single
:14:14. > :14:18.Council, at dismissing them ceased to be an option. The question is,
:14:19. > :14:34.who will they heard most and how do you smoke the keeper's threat?
:14:35. > :14:42.Joining me now, day about and Patrick O'Flynn. Do you agree not
:14:43. > :14:48.enough was done for the elections? No, we have very good results around
:14:49. > :14:54.Hammersmith and Fulham, Croydon, Redbridge, and we picked off council
:14:55. > :15:03.wards in Haringey meaning that Lynne Featherstone and Simon Hughes worked
:15:04. > :15:08.on. The Ashcroft polling shows that in key marginals, we are well ahead
:15:09. > :15:17.and on course to win in 2015. I will be putting Mr Ashcroft's poll to
:15:18. > :15:22.Eric Pickles shortly. On the basis of the local elections your national
:15:23. > :15:27.share of the vote would be just 31%, only two points ahead of the Tories,
:15:28. > :15:34.only two points ahead of Gordon Brown's disastrous performance in
:15:35. > :15:37.2010. Why so low? National share is one thing but I am talking about
:15:38. > :15:47.what we are doing in the key marginals. Clearly some were taken
:15:48. > :15:52.away from others like Rotherham but we have got many voters back. You
:15:53. > :15:58.are only two points better than you were in 2010 and use of your worst
:15:59. > :16:02.defeat in living memory. That is the totality. What matters
:16:03. > :16:08.is seat by seat, that is what the Republicans found in the
:16:09. > :16:12.presidential elections. Patrick O'Flynn, you performed well in the
:16:13. > :16:16.local election but it wasn't an earthquake. It is definitely true
:16:17. > :16:20.that Labour did well in London but that is a double-edged sword because
:16:21. > :16:28.you have an increasing disconnect between the metropolis and the rest
:16:29. > :16:31.of the country. Our vote share was somewhat depressed not just because
:16:32. > :16:37.London is one of our weakest part of the country but because most of the
:16:38. > :16:41.warts in London were 3-member wards and we were typically only putting
:16:42. > :16:45.up one candidate. Even when they fared well, it still tracked down
:16:46. > :16:54.the projected national share. I think we did well, and what was
:16:55. > :17:07.particularly good was getting the target seat list becoming clear
:17:08. > :17:13.before our eyes. Suzanne Evans said that basically smart folk don't vote
:17:14. > :17:18.for UKIP. I think that is a tiny fragment of what she said. She said
:17:19. > :17:22.London is its own entity and is increasingly different from the rest
:17:23. > :17:27.of the country. One of the things that is different from London as
:17:28. > :17:31.opposed to Rotherham is that we have very big parties. I have a few
:17:32. > :17:38.thousand people in mind, Rotherham has a few hundred. People don't go
:17:39. > :17:43.and knock on doors and talk to people, in London we have always had
:17:44. > :17:48.to do that. London is full of young voters, full of ethnically diverse
:17:49. > :17:53.voters, that is why you are not doing well, you don't appeal to live
:17:54. > :17:58.there. I think London in general has a very different attitude to mass
:17:59. > :18:09.uncontrolled immigration. Londoners know that if an immigrant moves in
:18:10. > :18:13.next door to you, to use Nigel Farage's phrase, the world doesn't
:18:14. > :18:21.end tomorrow. People in the big cities know that, that is the point.
:18:22. > :18:27.What Diane Abbott is doing is try to convince London of its moral
:18:28. > :18:33.superiority so I am delighted... It is a simple fact that immigrants do
:18:34. > :18:37.not end the world if they move in next door. The economic recovery is
:18:38. > :18:41.getting more robust by the month, you have a seriously to ship problem
:18:42. > :18:50.according to many people on your own site. Maybe you're 31% of the vote
:18:51. > :18:56.is as good as it gets. Those who go round bitching about Ed Miliband
:18:57. > :19:04.have been doing that before the result. We have all polled very
:19:05. > :19:15.well. Ed Miliband does not polled very well. He has actually fashioned
:19:16. > :19:19.some really effective policies. Unemployment is tumbling, inflation
:19:20. > :19:23.is falling, growth is strengthening, and you have a leader who claims
:19:24. > :19:31.there is a cost of living crisis and he doesn't have a clue about his own
:19:32. > :19:36.cost of living. I think that was poor staff work. That he doesn't
:19:37. > :19:48.know what goes in his own shopping basket? I think his own staff could
:19:49. > :19:52.have prepared him for that. My point is that the numbers are looking
:19:53. > :20:03.better, we know that, but people don't feel better off. Then why are
:20:04. > :20:07.all consumer index polls better? They are feeling confident. They may
:20:08. > :20:13.be saying that, but people are worried about their future, their
:20:14. > :20:17.children's future. That is not what you buy today or tomorrow. If you
:20:18. > :20:20.ask people about their future and their children's future and
:20:21. > :20:26.prospects, they feel frightened. What will be a good result for you
:20:27. > :20:32.in the general election? We need to see Nigel Farage elected as an MP
:20:33. > :20:38.and he mustn't go there on his own. How many people do you think will be
:20:39. > :20:44.with him? Who knows, but we will have 20 to 30 target seat and if you
:20:45. > :20:47.put together the clusters we got in last year's County elections with
:20:48. > :20:52.the one we got this year, you can have a good guess at where they
:20:53. > :20:56.are. A number of people who voted for you and Thursday say they are
:20:57. > :21:01.going to back to the three main parties in general election. It
:21:02. > :21:09.would be foolish of me to say that they are going to stay. Some have
:21:10. > :21:18.said they have just lent their votes but voters hate being taken for
:21:19. > :21:26.granted. It is up to us to broaden our agenda, and build on our
:21:27. > :21:32.strengths, work on our weaknesses. Ed Miliband may have to do a deal
:21:33. > :21:38.with him. We have been here before, but the UKIP bubble is going to
:21:39. > :21:44.burst and that may happen around the time of Newark. Are you going to win
:21:45. > :21:48.Newark now? We are going to give it a really good crack. We love being
:21:49. > :21:57.the underdog, we don't see it as being the big goal -- the be all and
:21:58. > :22:06.end all. If you're going to get a big bounce off the elections, not to
:22:07. > :22:13.go and win your shows people who govern in Parliament, they don't
:22:14. > :22:16.vote for you. It is Labour who have given up the campaign already so we
:22:17. > :22:24.need a really big swing in our favour and we will give it a great
:22:25. > :22:31.crack. The bubble will burst at the Newark by-election, trust me. Have
:22:32. > :22:40.you been to Newark? Newark will see from local people... Where is it? It
:22:41. > :22:45.is outside the M25, I can tell you that. My point is that we are set
:22:46. > :22:50.for victory in 2015. I want to run this clip and get your take on it,
:22:51. > :22:56.an interview that Nigel Farage did with LBC. What they do is they have
:22:57. > :23:00.an auditor to make sure they spend their money in accordance with their
:23:01. > :23:11.rules. You say that is if there is something wrong with it. Hang on,
:23:12. > :23:16.hang on. This is Patrick O'Flynn, is this a friend in the media or a
:23:17. > :23:25.member of the political class? Do you regret doing that now? What were
:23:26. > :23:30.you doing? No, I was trying to get Nigel Farage to a more important
:23:31. > :23:40.interview with Sunday Times that had painstakingly organised. He was on
:23:41. > :23:45.there? I have told the LBC people next door that he was running over.
:23:46. > :23:51.So you interrupted a live interview and you don't regret that? No,
:23:52. > :23:55.because just between us I wasn't a massive enthusiast for that
:23:56. > :24:00.interview taking place at all. I know what James O'Brien is like and
:24:01. > :24:11.I knew it wouldn't be particularly edifying. But your boss wasn't happy
:24:12. > :24:20.with the intervention. Sometimes the boss gets shirty. We all upset our
:24:21. > :24:25.boss every now and again, but anyway you could be an MEP by this time
:24:26. > :24:30.tomorrow and you won't have to do this job any more. You can then just
:24:31. > :24:36.count your salary and your expenses. I will make the contribution my
:24:37. > :24:39.party leader asked me to, to restore Britain to being a self-governing
:24:40. > :24:41.country. Are you going to stay in the job or not? I would not be able
:24:42. > :24:46.country. Are you going to stay in to do the job in the same way but I
:24:47. > :24:55.would maybe have some kind of overview. We will leave it there.
:24:56. > :25:00.Yesterday Michael Ashcroft, a former deputy chairman, produced a mammoth
:25:01. > :25:04.opinion poll of more than 26,000 voters in 26 marginal
:25:05. > :25:08.constituencies, crucial seat that will decide the outcome of the
:25:09. > :25:13.general election next year. In 26 constituencies people were asked
:25:14. > :25:27.which party's candidate they would support, and Labour took a healthy
:25:28. > :25:34.12 point lead, implying a swing of 6.5% from Conservatives to Labour
:25:35. > :25:39.from the last general election. That implies Labour would topple 83 Tory
:25:40. > :25:51.MPs. The poll also shows UKIP in second place in four seats, and
:25:52. > :25:56.three of them are Labour seats. Michael Ashcroft says a quarter of
:25:57. > :26:01.those who say they would vote UKIP supported the Tories at the last
:26:02. > :26:05.election. As many as have switched from Labour and the Lib Dems
:26:06. > :26:10.combined. The communities Secretary Eric
:26:11. > :26:15.Pickles joins me now. The Ashcroft Paul that gives Labour a massive 12
:26:16. > :26:19.point lead in the crucial marginal constituencies, you would lose 83
:26:20. > :26:24.MPs if this was repeated in an election. It doesn't get worse than
:26:25. > :26:32.that, does it? Yesterday I went through that Paul in great detail,
:26:33. > :26:38.and what it shows is that in a number of key seats we are ahead,
:26:39. > :26:43.and somewhere behind, and I think is Michael rightly shows... You are
:26:44. > :26:47.behind in most of them. This is a snapshot and we have a year in which
:26:48. > :26:51.the economy is going to be improving, and we have a year to say
:26:52. > :26:55.to those candidates that are fighting those key seats, look, just
:26:56. > :27:05.around the corner people are ahead in the same kind of seat as you and
:27:06. > :27:08.we need to redouble our efforts. The Tory brand is dying in major parts
:27:09. > :27:12.of the country, you are the walking dead in Scotland, and now London,
:27:13. > :27:22.huge chunks of London are becoming a no-go zone for you. That's not true
:27:23. > :27:27.with regard to the northern seats. Tell me what seats you have? In
:27:28. > :27:33.terms of councillors we are the largest party in local government.
:27:34. > :27:39.After four years in power... You are smiling but no political party has
:27:40. > :27:44.ever done that. You haven't got a single councillor in the great city
:27:45. > :27:50.of Manchester. We have councillors in Bradford and Leeds, we have
:27:51. > :27:55.more... You haven't got an MP in any of the big cities? We have more
:27:56. > :28:00.councillors in the north of England than Labour. A quarter of those who
:28:01. > :28:05.say they would vote UKIP and did vote UKIP supported the Tories at
:28:06. > :28:11.the last election. Why are so many of your 2010 voters now so
:28:12. > :28:15.disillusioned? Any election will bring a degree of churning, and we
:28:16. > :28:19.hope to get as many back as we can, but we also want to get Liberal
:28:20. > :28:25.Democrats, people who voted for the Lib Dems and the Labour Party. If we
:28:26. > :28:30.concentrate on one part of the electorate, then we won't take power
:28:31. > :28:35.and I believe we will because I believe we represent a wide spectrum
:28:36. > :28:39.of opinion in this country and I believe that delivering a long-term
:28:40. > :28:44.economic plan, delivering prosperity into people 's pockets will be felt.
:28:45. > :28:47.On the basis of the local election results, you would not pick up a
:28:48. > :28:57.single Labour seat in the general election. You make the point that it
:28:58. > :29:04.is about local elections. Seats that Labour should have taken from us
:29:05. > :29:09.they didn't, which is important... I am asking what possible Labour seat
:29:10. > :29:13.you would hope to win after the results on Thursday. Local elections
:29:14. > :29:17.are local elections. The national election will have a much bigger
:29:18. > :29:23.turnout, it will be one year from now, we will be able to demonstrate
:29:24. > :29:27.to the population that the trends we are seeing already in terms of the
:29:28. > :29:31.success of our long-term economic plan, they will be feeling that in
:29:32. > :29:37.their pockets. People need to feel secure about their jobs and feel
:29:38. > :29:41.that their children have a future. Maybe so many of your people are
:29:42. > :29:45.defecting to UKIP because on issues that they really care about like
:29:46. > :29:56.mass immigration, you don't keep your promises.
:29:57. > :30:00.We have reduced immigration and the amount of pull factors. Let me give
:30:01. > :30:08.you the figures. You have said a couple of things are not true. You
:30:09. > :30:14.promised to cut net immigration to under 100,000 by 2015, last year it
:30:15. > :30:19.rose by 50,000, 212,000. You have broken your promise. We still intend
:30:20. > :30:26.to reduce the amount from non-EU countries. I want to be clear, I
:30:27. > :30:30.have no problem with people coming here who want to work and pay their
:30:31. > :30:36.national insurance and tax, to help fund the health service. What I have
:30:37. > :30:42.objection to our people coming here to get the additional benefits. You
:30:43. > :30:50.made the promise. It is our intention to deliver it. People
:30:51. > :30:55.defect to UKIP because mainstream politicians to -- like yourself do
:30:56. > :30:58.not give straight answers. Can you be straight, you will not hit your
:30:59. > :31:05.immigration target by the election, correct? We will announce measures
:31:06. > :31:11.that. People factor. Will you hit your target? It is a year from now,
:31:12. > :31:19.it is our intention to move towards the target. Is it your intention, do
:31:20. > :31:24.you say you will hit your target of under 100,000 net migration by the
:31:25. > :31:30.election? We will do our damnedest. But you will not make it. I do not
:31:31. > :31:35.know that to be fact. They also vote UKIP cos they do not trust you and
:31:36. > :31:39.Europe, David Cameron has promised a referendum, he has vowed to resign
:31:40. > :31:45.if he does not deliver one, but still your voters vote for UKIP.
:31:46. > :31:54.There were reasons why people voted for UKIP. A great deal of anger
:31:55. > :31:56.about the political system, about the Metropolitan elite that they see
:31:57. > :32:21.running programmes like this and the political programmes. We
:32:22. > :32:31.I don't know what our position will be tonight. If you do come third, it
:32:32. > :32:38.will be because they don't trust you? Next year, there will be a
:32:39. > :32:42.general election about money in people's pockets and who will run
:32:43. > :32:48.the country. Your colleague on the backbenches, David Davies, wants to
:32:49. > :32:56.get the voters to trust you on the referendum. He is a very clever guy,
:32:57. > :33:02.but in terms of negotiating a better deal to give the population a better
:33:03. > :33:09.choice, you require two years to be able to do that. You are an Essex
:33:10. > :33:18.MP, it must be really depressing that Essex man and Essex women is
:33:19. > :33:28.now UKIP? I don't have any UKIP in my constituency. The usual high
:33:29. > :33:38.Essex... The Tory party does not resonate with Essex man in the way
:33:39. > :33:47.that it did under Thatcher. We need to connect, that is for sure. Voters
:33:48. > :33:53.want to know about their children's future, will they get a good
:33:54. > :33:59.education? When it comes to collecting and national government,
:34:00. > :34:08.Essex man does not want to see Ed Miliband in office. In terms of what
:34:09. > :34:20.government you get, do you want to see David Cameron or Ed Miliband as
:34:21. > :34:26.Prime Minister? Last general election, you did not get Essex man
:34:27. > :34:46.vote in this same quantities as under Margaret Thatcher or a and
:34:47. > :34:52.major. As you said at the beginning, it is where you deliver those votes.
:34:53. > :34:59.We have our campaign where we are looking at key marginals. We know
:35:00. > :35:13.where we are not doing as well as we should. Does he do these polls to be
:35:14. > :35:17.helpful? He is a good conservative and the publication was one of the
:35:18. > :35:28.best things that happened to our party. You are down to 22% of the
:35:29. > :35:34.vote. If you had a pact with UKIP, you could do much better. I am a
:35:35. > :35:42.Democrat. I believe you should put your policies out there and people
:35:43. > :35:49.can decide how they want to vote. Would you stop a local pact? There
:35:50. > :35:54.will be no pact with UKIP. None. Thank you.
:35:55. > :35:57.You are watching the sandy politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:35:58. > :36:10.Scotland. Good morning and welcome to Sunday
:36:11. > :36:12.Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme. Flames from the landmark
:36:13. > :36:16.Mackintosh building at Glasgow School of Art on Friday. We'll speak
:36:17. > :36:20.to the Culture Secretary live. This former nurse worked in the NHS,
:36:21. > :36:23.but as a patient she struggled to get her complaint addressed. We'll
:36:24. > :36:28.look at what can be done to ease the process.
:36:29. > :36:31.And I'm on the mound in Edinburgh where the General Assembly of the
:36:32. > :36:35.Church of Scotland has been meeting. Commissioners have been arguing for
:36:36. > :36:45.and against independence. What role for the kirk in a different kind of
:36:46. > :36:48.constitutional set-up? Good morning. Curators at the Glasgow School of
:36:49. > :36:52.Art will be assessing what can be saved over the next few days after
:36:53. > :36:55.the fire at the building on Friday. Last night, it emerged the library,
:36:56. > :36:58.which was designed by Charles Rennie Macintosh, has been destroyed in the
:36:59. > :37:01.blaze. Firefighters say they'll be scaling back their operation and
:37:02. > :37:05.teams will now investigate the cause of the fire. Both the UK and
:37:06. > :37:07.Scottish governments have said they will contribute to the restoration
:37:08. > :37:11.of the Mackintosh Building. Joining me now is the Culture Secretary,
:37:12. > :37:12.Fiona Hyslop, and Neil Baxter from the Royal Incorporation of
:37:13. > :37:16.Architects in Scotland. What is your understanding of the
:37:17. > :37:23.scale of the damage? I was the yesterday. It is quite remarkable
:37:24. > :37:28.what they did standing as a firewall on the stairwell, protecting the
:37:29. > :37:34.east end of the building. Their assessment that 90% of the building
:37:35. > :37:44.and 70% of the content is safe is remarkable. We walk a lot to them.
:37:45. > :37:56.The loss of the library is tragic. But McIntosh worked in precious
:37:57. > :38:02.ideas as well as materials. And we know that we can work with other
:38:03. > :38:08.agencies to ensure we can use state of the art documentation and start
:38:09. > :38:11.the process of recovery and restoration. There is hope for the
:38:12. > :38:17.future. A big loss, but we have to recover.
:38:18. > :38:21.What did firefighters say to you about the potential cause? That is
:38:22. > :38:35.what the investigation has two assays. There is no if statement on
:38:36. > :38:40.that yet. -- must assess. The firefighters were on site within
:38:41. > :38:46.four minutes. They have often been in the building. I cannot emphasise
:38:47. > :38:52.enough that we or the saving of this building to our firefighters.
:38:53. > :38:55.Glasgow School of Art seeing it is tragically ironic that a new fire
:38:56. > :39:03.suppression system was due to be fitted under the dash over the
:39:04. > :39:07.summer. In terms of what you can do with a listed building, you have to
:39:08. > :39:16.be very careful. Sprinklers can also cause damage. It is very sad that
:39:17. > :39:22.system was not in place. Tell us about the Scottish Government's
:39:23. > :39:28.involvement. How much money will you have two hand over? In terms of
:39:29. > :39:33.immediate response, we were on site immediately. The immediate
:39:34. > :39:40.conservation is very important, capturing what is there. The Royal
:39:41. > :39:46.commission of ancient monuments, their experts in photography and
:39:47. > :40:01.fair and work is taking place on that. Textiles are being removed,
:40:02. > :40:04.with the help of conservators. All that needs to be done will be done.
:40:05. > :40:17.But we will have to work in partnership, under the leadership of
:40:18. > :40:22.the Glasgow School of Art. They have worked very hard and will continue
:40:23. > :40:27.to work hard. The building is important, but the students work is
:40:28. > :40:34.also very important. Continuity of support for them is very important.
:40:35. > :40:38.The Education Secretary has been in touch to make sure we can continue
:40:39. > :40:41.that support for students. Do you welcome the statement from the
:40:42. > :40:45.Westminster government that they stand ready to make a financial
:40:46. > :40:49.contribution? Of course, and we have been in touch to find out what they
:40:50. > :40:55.can provide. International interest has been phenomenal as well. We have
:40:56. > :41:00.to look at the covering both of the building but also to help support
:41:01. > :41:06.the students and staff. But the outpouring of response shows how
:41:07. > :41:09.precious this building is. It's not just the building itself, but what
:41:10. > :41:13.it does for the life, building and heritage of Scotland. Tell us about
:41:14. > :41:22.how important this building is. It is unique, but that does not make
:41:23. > :41:27.it great. It's not simply good, it is a building of the first
:41:28. > :41:32.international importance. It has been described as one of the first
:41:33. > :41:37.truly modern buildings in the world. Its influence in terms of the
:41:38. > :41:43.architects that it has nurtured, and who have come from all over the
:41:44. > :41:48.world, creators and artists. This is about a place that is more than its
:41:49. > :41:52.architecture. Charles Rennie Mackintosh created something that
:41:53. > :41:56.was an all embracing work of art, every element. It is an
:41:57. > :42:06.extraordinarily comprehensive and complete police. What was his vision
:42:07. > :42:15.when he set out to mark the building was built in two faces so you see a
:42:16. > :42:21.transition in McIntosh as well. The first phase is looking a bit
:42:22. > :42:29.backwards, to the arts and crafts movement of the time. By the time we
:42:30. > :42:34.get into the second phase, and the library was the epitome of that
:42:35. > :42:38.second phase, he is very much at the top of his game. He is a truly
:42:39. > :42:43.great, international architect. He has travelled, he has been involved
:42:44. > :42:50.in the European architectural movement of his time and he is
:42:51. > :42:55.synthesising a whole number of ideas. This was a time of great firm
:42:56. > :43:01.and internationally of architectural ideas and innovation and he brings
:43:02. > :43:09.that together. You have a technical and artistic tour de force. And the
:43:10. > :43:14.materials that he used, that is going to be very important when it
:43:15. > :43:21.comes to designing. He used the materials that were available. It
:43:22. > :43:25.should be emphasised that the skills in Glasgow at that time were
:43:26. > :43:30.extraordinary. Glasgow have this tremendously strong tradition of
:43:31. > :43:35.shipbuilding and a lot of that is brought in and used in this
:43:36. > :43:38.building. It uses some of the contemporary Glasgow-based
:43:39. > :43:43.technology of working with metal. A lot of the struck, the reason why
:43:44. > :43:50.the building has stood solid is it is very solidly built. While we saw
:43:51. > :44:02.the destruction of a lot of internal timbers, and thank heavens that 70%
:44:03. > :44:08.of the internal fabric is intact, quite remarkable given the pictures.
:44:09. > :44:14.On Friday, people are standing crying in the street because we all
:44:15. > :44:18.felt that they were watching the death of something that was
:44:19. > :44:25.incredibly dear to us. The fact is, as the Cabinet Secretary has said,
:44:26. > :44:29.we must now do everything we can to help and participate in the
:44:30. > :44:34.resurrection of the building. Because it has been so meticulously
:44:35. > :44:39.studied, there are superb measured studies of every aspect and the
:44:40. > :44:44.library, perhaps, more than any other part. The information is
:44:45. > :44:49.there. The archaeological work that is no ongoing and the meticulous
:44:50. > :44:56.working through of the deeply will all contribute to the remaking.
:44:57. > :45:00.Hopefully, there will be elements that can be used again in that
:45:01. > :45:08.process. Is possible to put a time frame on this? We will leave that to
:45:09. > :45:12.the experts. What happens in the immediate aftermath in terms of
:45:13. > :45:15.documenting what is there, as well as the records we have, I should
:45:16. > :45:21.also point out that the recent conservation work carried out by
:45:22. > :45:26.Historic Scotland has met that the archive was protected because it had
:45:27. > :45:31.been recently moved to a new state of the art archive so a lot of the
:45:32. > :45:36.records that people thought had been lost were in a conservation archive.
:45:37. > :45:41.So that is something to be thankful for. But it is about going forward.
:45:42. > :45:45.In terms of expertise, we have offers of support from all over the
:45:46. > :45:53.world. In terms of the expertise we have, Glasgow School of Art and
:45:54. > :45:58.Historic Scotland are experts in digital documentation and are using
:45:59. > :46:08.those skills to see the rebirth and BB King of the building. --
:46:09. > :46:10.remaking. NHS professionals are missing
:46:11. > :46:13.opportunities to improve patient care due to poor handling of
:46:14. > :46:15.complaints according to Scotland's public services ombudsman. In a
:46:16. > :46:19.strongly worded report, Jim Martin says some NHS boards fail to learn
:46:20. > :46:21.from their mistakes after complaints are made, leading to unnecessary
:46:22. > :46:24.distress for patients. The report comes as figures released to this
:46:25. > :46:27.programme show the number of compensation claims made against
:46:28. > :46:33.boards have increased by a quarter over the last five years. Megan
:46:34. > :46:38.Paterson reports. Dorothy is a retired nurse with more
:46:39. > :46:44.than 20 years service in the NHS. As a nurse, she was proud of the care
:46:45. > :46:48.she provided. As a patient, she was disappointed with the handling of
:46:49. > :46:54.concerns about her treatment. Very frustrated. Nobody was listening. I
:46:55. > :46:59.thought, somebody has got to listen. I was sure that I was imagining that
:47:00. > :47:04.people could be so bad and it wasn't taken on board. I worked in
:47:05. > :47:09.psychiatry, and I was frightened that they were going to say there
:47:10. > :47:17.was something wrong with my rain. It is complaints like this that is
:47:18. > :47:22.causing concern. In his report, Jim Martin has said that complaints and
:47:23. > :47:27.delays in dealing with complaints can lead to stress for patients and
:47:28. > :47:33.their families. It seems fair litigation is a problem. For many
:47:34. > :47:39.health care professionals, the major fear is the consequence of admitting
:47:40. > :47:45.to a problem is that they will be sued. Even if they turn out not to
:47:46. > :47:49.have been negligent, it can put a huge strain on their profession.
:47:50. > :47:54.There is still a residual sense in which some people believe that they
:47:55. > :48:02.will be litigated against if they admit to something having gone
:48:03. > :48:06.wrong. That puts a barrier between openness and frankness and the
:48:07. > :48:12.apology that people are looking for. In fact, few complaints lead to
:48:13. > :48:18.financial compensation. Over the last five financial years, health
:48:19. > :48:23.boards have spent ?42.4 million in compensation, less than 1% of the
:48:24. > :48:35.overall health budget. The number of compensation claims has risen by
:48:36. > :48:38.26%, with 560 made in total. The financial compensation is not what
:48:39. > :48:45.they are looking for. They are looking for an apology, a sense that
:48:46. > :48:48.the health service act sets its responsibility and hopefully learns
:48:49. > :48:53.from whatever goes wrong. The money is there to make sure that people
:48:54. > :48:58.can survive in a comfortable way. In a statement, the Health Secretary
:48:59. > :49:09.Alex Neil said the government was committed to developing a culture of
:49:10. > :49:13.openness in the NHS. The V on planes are handled really is widely across
:49:14. > :49:20.the country. I think it does take time. The NHS is a large and
:49:21. > :49:25.bureaucratic organisation. Sometimes you will find that in particular
:49:26. > :49:35.areas, they can be EV sieve. People are pleased to see work in the area,
:49:36. > :49:39.but do not think of sharing. Staff and patients are becoming more
:49:40. > :49:48.willing to share their views on websites and forums. Complaints have
:49:49. > :49:57.to be handled at board level. It is at that level where decisions are
:49:58. > :50:02.taken about how to handle complaints. Some health boards
:50:03. > :50:07.handle complaints brilliantly, but most don't. They need to change
:50:08. > :50:16.their attitudes towards complaints and use them as learning
:50:17. > :50:28.opportunities. Dorothy hopes for forming -- hopes her former employer
:50:29. > :50:33.does not miss those opportunities. We have to acknowledge that when
:50:34. > :50:37.things go wrong for patients it can be catastrophic? Yes, if something
:50:38. > :50:41.goes wrong, they make a complaint, it is not handled well and
:50:42. > :50:47.emphasises the problem that they face. We have to recognise that and
:50:48. > :50:52.welcome the report. It is helpful in driving forward an agenda of
:50:53. > :50:55.improvement, and continuing, in the health service.
:50:56. > :50:58.There has been a rise in the complaints and compensation paid
:50:59. > :51:07.out, Richard Simpson, is that of a concern to you? We have a new system
:51:08. > :51:12.with the Patients' Right Act. It is addressing the system in a different
:51:13. > :51:18.way by having four levels. There is a system to allow compliments and to
:51:19. > :51:22.identify good practise as well as complaints. Below that there is
:51:23. > :51:28.comments where there is something minor going on, one of concerns, and
:51:29. > :51:32.only finally complaints. What is disappointing is that the ombudsman
:51:33. > :51:36.report in April had a large number of complaints not upheld. That
:51:37. > :51:41.indicates that the boards are not handling the process as well as they
:51:42. > :51:47.should be. That is because they need to actually see the patients as
:51:48. > :51:51.partners in co production, so that the patients can spot what is
:51:52. > :51:54.happening that is not good and that can be addressed. There are some
:51:55. > :51:58.boards doing that. That is the difficulty. That has
:51:59. > :52:03.been highlighted in a report that the kind of response you get from a
:52:04. > :52:07.health board depends on the area you live in? That is true. There is no
:52:08. > :52:12.point denying it. The report identified a number of strengths in
:52:13. > :52:16.a number of areas but then went on to say that must be rolled out
:52:17. > :52:20.across the country. That show it is is not an even service we are
:52:21. > :52:27.getting. But we have done many things, the Scottish Government
:52:28. > :52:31.introducing the Patients' Right Act. And the patient opinion website,
:52:32. > :52:36.that is Welsh Assembly to provide people with an opportunity to
:52:37. > :52:43.provide feedback and also with the support and the advice service
:52:44. > :52:47.through Citizens' Advice Scotland. So a lot of point of contact for
:52:48. > :52:51.feedback. But the difficulty is that if there is not the direct
:52:52. > :52:56.information about what is going on, where, and why, when we get that
:52:57. > :53:01.information they can react and hopefully properly.
:53:02. > :53:04.The point being made though is that many people want acknowledgement of
:53:05. > :53:09.something going wrong and an apology. They are not always looking
:53:10. > :53:13.for litigation but because of the fear of being sued health boards
:53:14. > :53:20.maybe don't offer that apology as quickly as they should? You are
:53:21. > :53:24.right. People want a nod and an apology. They also want to see
:53:25. > :53:29.change as a result of their complaint. So that it is better for
:53:30. > :53:33.the next patient. One final part of the jigsaw we have been discussing
:53:34. > :53:37.since 2006, that is no fault compensation. Sheila McLean has done
:53:38. > :53:41.the report to the Government. The Government have consulted on it, the
:53:42. > :53:46.results have been published. The Government must get on quickly with
:53:47. > :53:50.introducing a no fault compensation system. I hope that happens even
:53:51. > :53:55.before the end of the Parliament. That removes the fear of litigation.
:53:56. > :54:00.That is the point you were making. Once you get rid of the fear you
:54:01. > :54:03.begin to change the culture as the health professional staff and
:54:04. > :54:07.management are able to respond positively.
:54:08. > :54:12.The point that Pennie Taylor was making that those on the front line,
:54:13. > :54:18.the medics, they would like to offer the apology and move on but it is
:54:19. > :54:22.perhaps higher up the tree, the managers stopping that happening. Is
:54:23. > :54:26.that a fair point? I think it was a fair point. I have an experience of
:54:27. > :54:32.making a complaint, many years ago, I have to say. The first point of
:54:33. > :54:38.contact was whether or not a lawyer was needed. But it was not so. We
:54:39. > :54:43.were looking for it to be better for the next patient. Things have moved
:54:44. > :54:48.on but not as quickly as it should have. Work must be done. There must
:54:49. > :54:52.be a stepping back, allowing the individuals, the doctors, the
:54:53. > :54:56.nurses, to make that apology, to make it right and for the local ward
:54:57. > :55:00.managers and managers to get the chance to correct the system
:55:01. > :55:04.locally. That would be welcome. But I agree we have to make progress on
:55:05. > :55:08.making sure that litigation is not the first thing that people think
:55:09. > :55:12.about. When the Health Secretary talks
:55:13. > :55:18.about a culture of openness, how do you foster that feeling? I think it
:55:19. > :55:23.must come from the top. A problem in Parliament is that when something
:55:24. > :55:27.goes wrong, for example Lothian and the waiting times, the opposition
:55:28. > :55:32.attack, the Government responds by holding an inquiry, then people feel
:55:33. > :55:36.they are being blamed for things going wrong. It must go from the top
:55:37. > :55:43.to senior management, to not operate on a blame culture. To welcome the
:55:44. > :55:49.things being said by their staff. I am get getting correspondence from
:55:50. > :55:52.staff, even though there is a whistleblower line, I am getting
:55:53. > :55:57.complaints from staff saying that they will have to go public. There
:55:58. > :56:02.must be a change in the culture, it has to be from the top.
:56:03. > :56:06.And on the part of politicians too? Less finger pointing and less
:56:07. > :56:11.blaming from the politicians? I try to tweet to praise my health boards.
:56:12. > :56:17.Fife has introduced a system where the board gets a report on the
:56:18. > :56:22.complaint system, every board. Then an approach to where they are doing
:56:23. > :56:26.good practise and where there are concerns and they are put together,
:56:27. > :56:30.and then they can change things. I would praise that. We have to be
:56:31. > :56:35.positive where it is going well as well as negative when it is not
:56:36. > :56:41.going well. We are making progress but perhaps not quickly enough. One
:56:42. > :56:46.problems, I personally experienced in the '90s is not knowing where to
:56:47. > :56:51.go, how to go to it and what the process was. There are now lots of
:56:52. > :56:53.opportunities through the website, through Citizens' Advice Scotland
:56:54. > :56:58.and others. I think that the fact that there are
:56:59. > :57:02.now more opportunities to provide that feedback weather positive or
:57:03. > :57:05.negative is partly responsible for the increase in the number of
:57:06. > :57:09.complaints. But that is not a bad thing. If we are getting information
:57:10. > :57:13.about mistakes being made, that is how to correct them. If the local
:57:14. > :57:21.and senior managers don't know about it they cannot do anything about it.
:57:22. > :57:27.I'm sure that Richard wishes we could do it quicker, as do I.
:57:28. > :57:31.I wonder if the problem is not just confined to health boards. There are
:57:32. > :57:37.lots of organisations that are bureaucratic and have similar
:57:38. > :57:41.problems? And as we merge health and social care there are different
:57:42. > :57:46.complaint systems. Another part of the jigsaw Labour would like to see
:57:47. > :57:52.in place, we will percent vi with, we need an independent monitoring
:57:53. > :57:57.system. We have health improvements, a report has done on this but we
:57:58. > :58:01.need to do this without construction, to be able to go in,
:58:02. > :58:06.to say what is happening here. To look at it. So we feel that should
:58:07. > :58:11.apply to everything, not just the elderly, which we have been
:58:12. > :58:18.inspection system on, and the environment and the health systems
:58:19. > :58:22.but this must be beefed up, HIS, to be able to go in there and help on
:58:23. > :58:29.this one. Is that something to support? I will
:58:30. > :58:32.not redesign the entire Scottish complaints system across the
:58:33. > :58:36.Scottish system on the programme, good though it is, the programme but
:58:37. > :58:41.we need to consider much of what has been discussed. There are good
:58:42. > :58:44.suggestion, the merger of Social Services and social health is
:58:45. > :58:51.important. We have to get it right. If the complaints sector is shuffled
:58:52. > :58:57.to ensure it is a lined properly, that will be done but the basic
:58:58. > :59:01.problem is that we are doing good work but it is not across the whole
:59:02. > :59:05.country. We recognise that, we welcome the report. We will be
:59:06. > :59:09.pushing forward to ensure that people can get access to the
:59:10. > :59:13.complaints system and hopefully get a proper response when they
:59:14. > :59:17.complain. Thank you very much. This is Sunday politics, Scotland,
:59:18. > :59:26.let's cross for the news with Andrew acre.
:59:27. > :59:30.Good afternoon. Staff at the Glasgow School of Art will be assessing what
:59:31. > :59:34.can be saved over the next few days after the fire at the building.
:59:35. > :59:39.Attention is now also turning to the funding requirements for
:59:40. > :59:42.restoration. The UK government has said it will give "millions" of
:59:43. > :59:45.pounds if necessary and speaking on this programme the Culture Secretary
:59:46. > :59:48.Fiona Hyslop said the Scottish Government would make sure that "all
:59:49. > :59:52.that needs to be done will be done". The Danish Foreign Minister has told
:59:53. > :59:55.the BBC that an independent Scotland would have to "deliver on certain
:59:56. > :59:58.criteria" to join the European Union. Speaking to BBC Radio Four's
:59:59. > :00:00.the "World this Weekend", Martin Lidegaard spoke about the Copehagen
:00:01. > :00:04.criteria, which includes meeting the aims of political, economic and
:00:05. > :00:07.monetary union. Better Together claims it "blows out of the water"
:00:08. > :00:12.the suggestion that getting back into the EU would be "plain
:00:13. > :00:15.sailing". The Scottish Government say Scotland ALREADY meets all the
:00:16. > :00:24.requirements for membership outlined in the Copenhagen criteria. An
:00:25. > :00:27.ambitious plan to work out who owns every part of Scotland is to be
:00:28. > :00:31.completed in ten years, according to the Environment Minister. A mapping
:00:32. > :00:35.project has been announced, days after a group published a report on
:00:36. > :00:38.land reform. 62 recommendations have been set
:00:39. > :00:47.out, among the suggestions, it called for a law to limit how much
:00:48. > :00:56.land any single person can own. Finally, Paolo Nuttini and Katy
:00:57. > :01:03.Perry are to head Radio 1's Big Weekend.
:01:04. > :01:08.There have been performances by Cold Play andEd Sheeran.
:01:09. > :01:13.Here is the weather. After a cloudy morning there are
:01:14. > :01:20.sunny spells in the afternoon. But with the heavy showers, later they
:01:21. > :01:26.could be slow moving with a risk of thunder and hail. Cooler in the east
:01:27. > :01:30.with the on shore breeze. During the evening, the showers stay with us.
:01:31. > :01:36.Drier conditions around it and the patchy mist and fog forming too,
:01:37. > :01:40.continuing with the lighter winds. Now back to Gary.
:01:41. > :01:43.Thank you. Dwindling congregations and a more
:01:44. > :01:46.secular society has made the voice of the kirk minister from the pulpit
:01:47. > :01:50.far quieter. The Church of Scotland has seen its role on the national
:01:51. > :01:54.stage diminish. However, the debate on independence has given the kirk
:01:55. > :01:57.the opportunity to once again get involved in serious constitutional
:01:58. > :02:05.debate - as it also considers what its position might be if there's a
:02:06. > :02:11.yes vote. Here is Andrew Kerr. Kirk and state, the Monarch's
:02:12. > :02:18.representative Government and clergy came together at this year's general
:02:19. > :02:23.assembly. In church speak, respectful dialogue on independence.
:02:24. > :02:26.Douglas Alexander put the case for the union.
:02:27. > :02:29.Reverend Doctor Doug Gay argued for a "yes" vote. Commissioners also had
:02:30. > :02:35.their say. I and my fellow Church of Scotland
:02:36. > :02:40.members can unite with the Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, and
:02:41. > :02:43.look forward to an independent Scotland without sectarianism. An
:02:44. > :02:48.independent Scotland where all are valued. I think independence is an
:02:49. > :02:52.allusion to social change. I look forward to the debate being over,
:02:53. > :02:54.resolved and then continuing conversation about how we bring
:02:55. > :02:59.about the social change for everybody in these islands that I
:03:00. > :03:03.think unites us and we all so desperately want to see.
:03:04. > :03:08.One argues that the Kirk could benefit from the end of the union.
:03:09. > :03:10.The role of the Kirk in an independent Scotland could be
:03:11. > :03:16.considerable. I don't think it is something that
:03:17. > :03:19.they should be fearful of or see in diminishing their ability about the
:03:20. > :03:23.organisation. I think that the spotlight would be bigger on the
:03:24. > :03:27.Church of Scotland. But the outgoing moderator wanted
:03:28. > :03:31.clarity in the Kirk's position if there is independence, wary of a
:03:32. > :03:37.secular, written constitution. I would like some kind of assurance,
:03:38. > :03:43.ago the assurance has been in word form from various politicians, about
:03:44. > :03:49.the future of not only our national church but indeed all religious
:03:50. > :03:56.groups, about the place of religion and faith groups in a Scotland. If
:03:57. > :03:59.we do have a "yes" vote, if we have a written constitution.
:04:00. > :04:04.The Scottish Government say in the white paper, that they propose no
:04:05. > :04:08.change to the legal status and churches will be fundmental in the
:04:09. > :04:14.process of drafting a constitution. A report about the general assembly
:04:15. > :04:18.is not complete without the shot of John Knoxx standing outside where
:04:19. > :04:21.the assembly has been meeting. A man no stranger to debathe and
:04:22. > :04:28.controversy about the future of the Kirk. The leader of the Protestant
:04:29. > :04:34.reformation in Scotland helped mould a national church in more turbulent
:04:35. > :04:44.times than we do now. In modern Scotland, the religious ideas are
:04:45. > :04:53.changing. Professor Tom Define -- Devine has been exploring these.
:04:54. > :04:59.We have seen a complete met more foe sips. A change. The data that I have
:05:00. > :05:03.is from 2012 in relation to attitudes towards independence, that
:05:04. > :05:09.has been coming up at that time. 30% of the sample question of roam an
:05:10. > :05:19.Catholics favoured independence. But interestingly as well, only 16% of
:05:20. > :05:30.Roman Catholics interviewed were in any sense worried about the
:05:31. > :05:33.consequences of independence. Back at the assembly, the moderator was
:05:34. > :05:37.concerned about the prospect of division after the referendum. What
:05:38. > :05:48.ever happens, the Kirk will meet here again next year.
:05:49. > :05:50.I'm now joined in the studio by the Reverend Doctor Doug Gay who was
:05:51. > :05:53.supporting independence at the Assembly this week and, from
:05:54. > :05:56.Edinburgh, I'm joined by the Reverend Ewan Aitken. A former
:05:57. > :06:02.Labour councillor in the city, he's a supporter of the union.
:06:03. > :06:07.In having this debate this week, is the church leading on this issue, or
:06:08. > :06:13.is it following? I think the church is taking part, which is what it
:06:14. > :06:18.should be doing. I think some people are sometimes suspicious of the
:06:19. > :06:22.Kirk, that it is trying to be a dominant or domineering voice in
:06:23. > :06:27.Scottish culture. What we did on Tuesday was build a dialogue. We
:06:28. > :06:30.have been trying to say that our voices and all voice as the Kirk
:06:31. > :06:38.matters in this debate, but it matters alongside a range of other
:06:39. > :06:43.voices. We want to play our part. That seems a bit of a change. On
:06:44. > :06:54.other issues, the church has seen itself as being in a position where
:06:55. > :07:01.it should be leading? Yes, but this is about how we organise society.
:07:02. > :07:06.This is how to create spaces for that conversation can happen. In the
:07:07. > :07:15.end, it is not the church that has a vote, it is about the people having
:07:16. > :07:19.a vote. That is why we have run events across the country where we
:07:20. > :07:22.have got people to have a dialogue about the values that make a society
:07:23. > :07:30.before getting to the point of voting. And it is the capacity for
:07:31. > :07:35.making those type of spaces that has met the church made a very different
:07:36. > :07:39.type of contribution. If there is a yes vote, what sort of role do you
:07:40. > :07:47.see the Kirk playing? I think the Kirk would continue to play an
:07:48. > :07:51.important role, but the Kirk is a very democratic institution, it
:07:52. > :08:02.values democracy in its own structures and in Scotland. It is
:08:03. > :08:07.not wanting to impose itself. Do you share those reservations that we
:08:08. > :08:16.heard about the potential for a more secular society after a yes vote?
:08:17. > :08:23.Scotland is becoming a more secular society. But I am relaxed about
:08:24. > :08:28.that. I think that if there is a vote for independence, there will be
:08:29. > :08:33.a constitutional convention and the church and other faith traditions
:08:34. > :08:38.will play there on that. What we are looking for is a democratic
:08:39. > :08:44.solution. We support the democratic process. How do you view this
:08:45. > :08:49.argument that an independent Scotland would be more in tune with
:08:50. > :08:56.the values of the Kirk than perhaps the Westminster government? That is
:08:57. > :09:02.a dangerous manifestation of an argument that Scotland is better and
:09:03. > :09:10.fairer than England. I am unconvinced by that. It may be
:09:11. > :09:16.better and fairer than under the Tories, but that is not balanced
:09:17. > :09:21.argument. The church plays a role around Britain as a catalyst for
:09:22. > :09:28.building communities where people look after each other. I think that
:09:29. > :09:38.is more important than some of the other issues. Has this issue being
:09:39. > :09:43.overplayed when people are asked for their attitudes on social and
:09:44. > :09:50.political issues, they are not hugely at odds with people elsewhere
:09:51. > :10:00.in the UK. My argument is not that Scots are better people than anyone
:10:01. > :10:05.else. We have a unique opportunity to go on a journey of reform. We
:10:06. > :10:14.have very similar issues for a more just and equal Scotland. I believe
:10:15. > :10:19.that only independence offers us the level of self determination to push
:10:20. > :10:23.towards that. The moderator is talking about a service of
:10:24. > :10:28.reconciliation after the vote in September. Is that something that is
:10:29. > :10:41.needed? Do you get a sense that this debate is that divisive? It is going
:10:42. > :10:45.to be close which means that unlike other occasions there has been a
:10:46. > :10:50.huge movement one way or other, there will be a sense of division
:10:51. > :10:59.and people will feel they campaigned long and hard and not got what they
:11:00. > :11:06.hoped for. In a sense, it is not saying... We went on a journey to
:11:07. > :11:10.make a decision, we need to say that we take all those emotions and
:11:11. > :11:14.energies back into a place of unity. I think that is why the
:11:15. > :11:18.church wants to do that, to make sure we are quick about that, we do
:11:19. > :11:24.not let any potential division fester for too long and really see,
:11:25. > :11:32.let's work on this and whatever the journey is that we are alone. What
:11:33. > :11:35.do you think? I think some people have suggested that the new
:11:36. > :11:40.moderator has been overstating the degree of conflict or division that
:11:41. > :11:45.there will be. I do not think this was his aim at all. It has been a
:11:46. > :11:49.divisive contest and one of the things that concerns me is that
:11:50. > :11:55.often relationships between the SNP, the party I support, and the
:11:56. > :12:00.Labour Party have been better, but we are friends and we have a
:12:01. > :12:11.respectful dialogue about this. A service of reconciliation is in that
:12:12. > :12:19.spirit. Is you can also write -- Is Ewan also right that divisions will
:12:20. > :12:24.be hard to heal if the result is close? I think some people will feel
:12:25. > :12:31.jubilate, others will be disappointed. -- jubilant. We are
:12:32. > :12:33.seeing that what ever the result, they will have to unite and go
:12:34. > :12:39.forward and seek the common good of Scotland. Should there have been a
:12:40. > :12:44.vote this week to clear things up for people? No, there should not.
:12:45. > :12:57.The place for the vote is on the ballot box. That is right and
:12:58. > :13:06.proper. Constantly forcing people into corners creates division. In
:13:07. > :13:13.other parts of life, we take time to make big decisions. The time we have
:13:14. > :13:17.got up until the September vote, that will make for a better
:13:18. > :13:23.conversation and make less likelihood of huge division at the
:13:24. > :13:29.point of the vote. Do you think the debate this week changed anybody's
:13:30. > :13:33.mind? I obviously hope it did. I hope that some people were more
:13:34. > :13:39.convinced about the case for independence. I think it is
:13:40. > :13:47.important we have good conversations about this. There have been lots of
:13:48. > :13:52.conversations about the type of Scotland we want to live in. Thank
:13:53. > :13:56.you. That's all from the us this week.
:13:57. > :13:59.The programme isn't on next week, so we'll be back at the same time on
:14:00. > :14:03.Sunday June eighth. Goodbye.