:00:46. > :00:49.Politics. The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been
:00:50. > :00:55.slowed. But the country now faces a defect or partition. Watching
:00:56. > :00:59.Britain, the USA and Europe be doing, if anything?
:01:00. > :01:04.It has been a big week in the Scottish referendum. Even the Pope
:01:05. > :01:12.had a say. But has the tone of the debate will come to downright nasty?
:01:13. > :01:20.Can I swap Ed Miliband four attempts Aaron? We will be asking if any of
:01:21. > :01:24.the parties are making last-minute substitutions before the election.
:01:25. > :01:25.Coming up in Sunday Politics Scotland:
:01:26. > :01:28.The former SNP leader Gordon Wilson says it's time to challenge
:01:29. > :01:30.Westminster about its policies in the event of a No vote.
:01:31. > :01:43.He'll join us live to explain what he means.
:01:44. > :01:46.The Sunni Islamist army known as ISIS is now in control
:01:47. > :01:48.of huge swathes of northern and western Iraq, including
:01:49. > :01:51.Until the weekend they looked like advancing relentlessly
:01:52. > :01:54.on Baghdad but that offensive has now been slowed or even halted
:01:55. > :01:58.The Iraqi army and its Shia milita allies vow that
:01:59. > :02:05.Baghdad will not be taken and that a counter-attack will soon begin.
:02:06. > :02:08.Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has to do something to
:02:09. > :02:09.reverse the humiliation of recent days, which saw
:02:10. > :02:15.his US-trained and equipped Iraqi army, which outnumbered
:02:16. > :02:19.the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or surrender when confronted by ISIS.
:02:20. > :02:21.The conflict has already created a humanitarian crisis, with hundreds
:02:22. > :02:31.The Kurds have used the conflict to consolidate their hold on their
:02:32. > :02:35.autonomous area in the north, parts of the west and the north are in the
:02:36. > :02:38.grip of ISIS control and the Shias are hunkering down in the east.
:02:39. > :02:41.All of which makes a three-way partition a real possibility with
:02:42. > :02:45.The US is moving another of its massive aircraft carrier
:02:46. > :02:48.battlefleets to the Gulf, though the White House shows no
:02:49. > :02:52.While Iran says it's ready to help its Shia allies
:02:53. > :02:55.and there are unconfoirmed reports that its revolutionary guard has
:02:56. > :03:08.Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's diplomatic editor Mark Urban.
:03:09. > :03:17.Let's start with some basics. Who are ISIS and why are they
:03:18. > :03:23.controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS is an extremist militant jihad
:03:24. > :03:26.organisation and they have a pure Islamic concept based on 14th
:03:27. > :03:31.century history and jurisprudence. What they want to do is correct --
:03:32. > :03:37.create this caliphate that do not recognise colonial boundaries so it
:03:38. > :03:40.involves Syria and Iraq, and they could go down to Lebanon and
:03:41. > :03:42.Palestine, that is all fair game as far as they are concerned. And they
:03:43. > :03:48.have this strict interpretation of Islam. The more interesting question
:03:49. > :03:55.is why have semi-Sunni Muslims, along with them, these are precisely
:03:56. > :04:00.the sort of people who in 2006, 2007, tribal leaders in the west of
:04:01. > :04:04.the country rose up against. It was called the Awakening and the
:04:05. > :04:10.Americans in power did and bankrolled it. These people turned
:04:11. > :04:13.against them and admired them in large numbers, so why do they have
:04:14. > :04:17.so many Sunni Muslims on their side? We hear about people going
:04:18. > :04:19.back to Mosul. I think the answer is a perception
:04:20. > :04:23.back to Mosul. I think the answer that the current government is
:04:24. > :04:27.ruling in sectarian interests, Shia Muslim interest, and the Sunni
:04:28. > :04:30.Muslims want self-determination and this is their best bet.
:04:31. > :04:33.Muslims want self-determination and this is their Let me put up this map
:04:34. > :04:36.to find out where we are going. We can see Mosul in the north, they
:04:37. > :04:45.took that, and then they started, South, reports that the crit was
:04:46. > :04:51.involved -- to grit -- to grit. What is the situation on the ground now?
:04:52. > :04:59.We are in what you might call a consolidation or strategic pause as
:05:00. > :05:02.American called it in 2003. ISIS are trying to consolidate their power in
:05:03. > :05:05.Mosul, and now they have this major city and they are trying to show
:05:06. > :05:10.they can run the city and get the power going, etc. Their southernmost
:05:11. > :05:15.forces, that is a gorilla army, guys in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal
:05:16. > :05:18.with serious opposition. They would like to get the tanks and other
:05:19. > :05:24.things into action but that could take weeks for them to be able to do
:05:25. > :05:26.it. The government side is that they have counter-attacked, but it will
:05:27. > :05:32.take a little while before these newly raised militia and other task
:05:33. > :05:38.forces, call them what you will, can effectively counter-attacked. But
:05:39. > :05:42.that is what will happen in the next week or two. We will see
:05:43. > :05:51.increasingly large and serious government counter-attacked trying
:05:52. > :05:55.to retake those places, and I fear a really difficult, bloody Syrian
:05:56. > :06:03.style street by street battle for some of these urban centres. I would
:06:04. > :06:06.like to have a look at this map, because the Kurds, as I mentioned,
:06:07. > :06:10.they are consolidating their position in the autonomous region in
:06:11. > :06:15.the north. The Islamist are taking over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim
:06:16. > :06:21.West. And of course the Shia Muslim are still dominant in control of
:06:22. > :06:24.Baghdad and in parts of the south and east. Back to me looks like the
:06:25. > :06:34.beginnings of the partition of Iraq. -- back to me. Well, it is, but we
:06:35. > :06:40.have to caveat it in a few ways. Firstly, there are millions of
:06:41. > :06:44.people in Iraq, so-called sushi, combined families, who do not fit
:06:45. > :06:49.easily into the pattern. Do we see millions of people becoming refugees
:06:50. > :06:53.under this scheme? There would be a lot of human tragedies if people
:06:54. > :06:58.really did try to enforce this type partition. Secondly, there are Sunni
:06:59. > :07:04.Muslim communities in the south of Baghdad, those places, once again, a
:07:05. > :07:14.lot of misery and fighting will occur if people try to enforce a de
:07:15. > :07:20.facto partition. There are still an awakening of forces. They are on the
:07:21. > :07:26.side of the government. We heard about one group in Samarra of Sunni
:07:27. > :07:31.Muslims fighting on the same side. It's a complex picture. They factor,
:07:32. > :07:35.it does look like a partition, and if it goes further in that direction
:07:36. > :07:40.it will. And partition will always be messy because people end up on
:07:41. > :07:46.the wrong side of the lies. Finally, the big thing on that map,
:07:47. > :07:51.Iran, a huge place, a huge border with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now
:07:52. > :07:57.becomes a key factor. It is becoming a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I
:07:58. > :07:59.was in Baghdad a few months ago, I did actually see Iranians
:08:00. > :08:06.revolutionary guards in uniform. They were protecting a senior
:08:07. > :08:09.Iranians official, so some numbers have been never some time and they
:08:10. > :08:14.are also said to protect the political leaders and -- in his
:08:15. > :08:18.compound. They are there. We think more of them are trying to organise
:08:19. > :08:24.the defence of Baghdad to galvanise the Iraqi army, and they will not
:08:25. > :08:25.allow the Iraqi government to fall. Mark, thank you for marking archive
:08:26. > :08:30.this morning. -- marking our card. Tony Blair took Britain
:08:31. > :08:33.into the Iraq conflict in 2003. He's now, among other things, envoy
:08:34. > :08:35.to the Middle East representing That's the UN, the EU,
:08:36. > :08:38.the US and Russia. This morning he entered
:08:39. > :08:49.the debate about what should be My point is simple. If you left
:08:50. > :08:53.Saddam in place in 2003, when 2011 happened and you have the Arab
:08:54. > :09:00.revolutions going through Tunisia, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and
:09:01. > :09:04.Syria, you would still have had a major problem in Iraq. You can see
:09:05. > :09:08.what happens when you leave the dictator in place, as has happened
:09:09. > :09:12.with Bashar al-Assad. The problem doesn't go away. What I'm trying to
:09:13. > :09:15.say is, we can rerun the debates about 2003, and there are perfectly
:09:16. > :09:20.legitimate points on either side, but where we are in 2014, we have do
:09:21. > :09:21.understand that this is a regional problem, but a problem that will
:09:22. > :09:25.affect us. And I'm joined by the former Foreign
:09:26. > :09:28.Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown, Here in London are James Rubin,
:09:29. > :09:32.he was chief spokesman for the State Department under
:09:33. > :09:34.Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman, she represents the Kurdistan
:09:35. > :09:51.Regional government in the UK. Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles,
:09:52. > :09:55.we don't intervene in Syria, it's a shambles. What lessons should we
:09:56. > :09:59.draw? That is a well framed question, because that is the
:10:00. > :10:02.problem. Tony Blair is half right. Iraq, like Syria, would probably
:10:03. > :10:06.have been a problem even without an intervention. But one wishes someone
:10:07. > :10:12.would tell him to stay quiet during moments like this, because it does
:10:13. > :10:16.drive a great surge of people in the other direction. The fact is, what
:10:17. > :10:19.has been missing in western politics towards the Middle East throughout
:10:20. > :10:25.both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a drive to build an inclusive,
:10:26. > :10:31.democratic centre which is secular and nonsectarian. That has been
:10:32. > :10:37.missing amongst the threats of invasion Manon invasion, we have
:10:38. > :10:40.just constantly neglected the diplomatic nation-building
:10:41. > :10:44.dimensional this. I want to come onto what is happening on the
:10:45. > :10:47.ground. I want to begin with what the Western response by me, and by
:10:48. > :10:52.that we mean the United States, because of it doesn't do anything,
:10:53. > :10:56.nobody will do anything. All of the signals I see coming out of the
:10:57. > :11:00.White is that Barack Obama has no appetite for intervention -- out of
:11:01. > :11:03.the White House. I don't think he does have an appetite. He would be
:11:04. > :11:10.very unlikely to do anything very large. He might feel pressured to
:11:11. > :11:15.act because of the fact that this particular group, this Al-Qaeda
:11:16. > :11:21.inspired group, fits into the strategy he has pursued in Yemen and
:11:22. > :11:24.Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use drone strikes against individual
:11:25. > :11:34.terrorists. So it is possible that the threat of ISIS in the region and
:11:35. > :11:40.the West in general might inspire him to act, but the idea he will do
:11:41. > :11:45.enough, militarily, to transform Iraq from its current state of civil
:11:46. > :11:50.War into something along the lines that Mark was talking about,
:11:51. > :11:56.nation-building diplomacy, a big operation, I don't see President
:11:57. > :12:00.Obama sees his historic mission as having got the United States as out
:12:01. > :12:07.of it. Leave it to the Pacific, perhaps. What would the Kurds like
:12:08. > :12:09.the West to do? First of all, in Kurdistan we face a huge
:12:10. > :12:14.humanitarian crisis. We already have had bought a quarter of a million
:12:15. > :12:17.Syrian refugees and we were struggling to cope with that. And
:12:18. > :12:23.now we have at least double that number of refugees coming from
:12:24. > :12:28.Mosul. First and foremost, we are calling on the international
:12:29. > :12:32.community to help us with that. So we need humanitarian aid? Let's
:12:33. > :12:36.assume we do that in some way, maybe not enough, but what else if
:12:37. > :12:42.anything? I think it is an incumbent on the west and other powers to
:12:43. > :12:49.assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I think the Sunni Arab community, some
:12:50. > :12:53.of whom have joined ISIS and may be supported the uprising, have
:12:54. > :12:59.justified complaints against the federal government. But we need the
:13:00. > :13:03.terrorists out of Iraq. That is first and foremost. And what the
:13:04. > :13:06.West can do is not necessarily intervene with boots on the ground,
:13:07. > :13:10.but provide technical assistance, provide intelligence and help the
:13:11. > :13:17.Iraqi army and air force to be more targeted. Can you defend yourselves?
:13:18. > :13:23.In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the disciplined troops. In this
:13:24. > :13:27.situation, I hope they won't be abandoning their post, that is for
:13:28. > :13:33.sure. It is a national cause fires. But we are not armed in the way that
:13:34. > :13:37.the Iraqi army is -- cause for us. We are not armed in the way that
:13:38. > :13:41.ISIS seems to be now they have seized some of the American kit. We
:13:42. > :13:45.are not asking for weapons, but we ask for assistance for all of Iraq
:13:46. > :13:51.to deal with the situation. Mark, this is not just an Iraqi problem.
:13:52. > :13:54.This is a regional conflict, and from the Levant on the shores of the
:13:55. > :13:59.Mediterranean, all the way through to the Gulf, the region is gripped
:14:00. > :14:05.with what is essentially a Sunni and Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with
:14:06. > :14:08.the caveats that Mark bourbon made earlier, it's not quite that
:14:09. > :14:13.straightforward, but the basic divide is exactly that -- Mark
:14:14. > :14:17.Urban. People have been looking for this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan
:14:18. > :14:20.and have been taken by surprise although with hindsight I'm not sure
:14:21. > :14:26.why, that it has begun in Iraq instead. At its most extreme, it
:14:27. > :14:31.risks redrawing the 20th century boundaries of the region in a way
:14:32. > :14:35.which would be highly unstable because it would pit a Shia Muslim
:14:36. > :14:40.bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc and would undo all of the sort of
:14:41. > :14:46.social and economic advance of the last century, so the stakes are
:14:47. > :14:52.suddenly very, very high indeed. Are we seeing the redrawing? The lines
:14:53. > :14:55.were drawn secretly, not far from here, about a mile away, and may
:14:56. > :15:00.have survived through thick and thin. They now look pretty fragile.
:15:01. > :15:08.The map is being redrawn. I think it is true that there is a key factor
:15:09. > :15:15.Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit
:15:16. > :15:18.of a hand to the promotion of the idea of self-determination, and in a
:15:19. > :15:22.way, there is a self determination going on, particularly in the
:15:23. > :15:25.Kurdish region, and perhaps they may end up the big winners in all of
:15:26. > :15:30.this, because they have proceeded with a relatively moderate,
:15:31. > :15:39.reconcilable government. The key thing that the Kurdish region has
:15:40. > :15:44.done. They used to fight the two groups, and now they fight together.
:15:45. > :15:49.What the Sunni Muslims have not done is figure out how to let politics
:15:50. > :15:59.let the side things instead of guns. We need to look clearly and in Syria
:16:00. > :16:06.and Iraq, if there is a Sunni extremist with ISIS that carves out
:16:07. > :16:10.a place for itself, it will be the great irony of the modern era.
:16:11. > :16:17.President Bush said he wanted to go into Iraq to fight terrorism. There
:16:18. > :16:22.was no terrorist. There are now. If in Iraq and Syria together thereat a
:16:23. > :16:28.thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability that threatens the region, the
:16:29. > :16:47.West, the world, we are all going to have to do something about it.
:16:48. > :16:58.The danger is that power will spread. This could grow in power.
:16:59. > :17:04.You would not want it on your southern border. Absolutely, we
:17:05. > :17:06.would not. The point we are all making indirectly is that things
:17:07. > :17:11.have changed in Iraq and will never be the same again. Whether Iraq
:17:12. > :17:13.completely disintegrates into three countries, or whether it stays
:17:14. > :17:15.together as one country, but a countries, or whether it stays
:17:16. > :17:21.together as one country, but loose federation, either way, Iraq has
:17:22. > :17:27.changed. It will not go back to what it was. I hope it will change for
:17:28. > :17:34.the better. I think we're at the make or break point for Iraq. Either
:17:35. > :17:39.the political readers -- the political leaders of a right wake up
:17:40. > :17:43.and smell the coffee and put aside their differences or there will be
:17:44. > :17:50.problems. This provides that opportunity, in a very nasty way. If
:17:51. > :17:55.we take it? Yes, and if not, I think this is the end of a rack as we know
:17:56. > :18:03.it. If anything resembling a caliphate emerges, that is very
:18:04. > :18:06.destabilising for the region itself. More so I would suggest than even
:18:07. > :18:11.the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. At some stage, you have
:18:12. > :18:26.to assume that they will be coming for us. That is correct. This is
:18:27. > :18:29.extremely dangerous. The only way forward is for these political
:18:30. > :18:33.groups to talk to each other and find a compromise that allows the
:18:34. > :18:37.rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected within or the
:18:38. > :18:41.rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected with an
:18:42. > :18:45.autonomous federal-state. Any support for the government must be
:18:46. > :18:57.premised on that. There is no military solution for this which is
:18:58. > :19:04.in during -- there is no military solution for this. There must be
:19:05. > :19:08.serious political negotiation, not with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim
:19:09. > :19:14.moderates, to form a more representative government. This is
:19:15. > :19:18.the last chance for Iraq. I think we are all saying that that is going to
:19:19. > :19:21.need to be some major western leadership to make some big
:19:22. > :19:26.decisions here for the future of the region. I am concerned that after
:19:27. > :19:32.Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is quite world-weary, quite
:19:33. > :19:38.world-weary. It does not seem to be giving leadership. Certainly we are
:19:39. > :19:40.not seeing that in Europe. I am deeply concerned that we are not
:19:41. > :19:47.going to take the leadership role that needs to be taken. These are
:19:48. > :19:51.big issues. When Britain and France carved up the Middle East, they were
:19:52. > :19:55.world powers, operating as global powers, and without that global
:19:56. > :19:59.leadership by somebody, this is just going to get worse and worse. I
:20:00. > :20:04.think we will leave it there, thank you very much.
:20:05. > :20:09.The danger is that power will spread. This could grow in power.
:20:10. > :20:12.It is just under 100 days until the referendum on Scottish independence.
:20:13. > :20:14.So, for once, it'll be a long hot-summer
:20:15. > :20:19.But the campaign isn't just getting heated.
:20:20. > :20:21.In places it's also down-right nasty. When
:20:22. > :20:23.Scotland's best-selling author announced she was giving
:20:24. > :20:26.the unionist cause a million pounds this week, she received
:20:27. > :20:34.Independence supporters online, so-called cybernats,
:20:35. > :20:36.called JK Rowling a traitor and much worse, using a variety of
:20:37. > :20:40.For its part, the Better Together campaign has been accused
:20:41. > :20:44.Even Gordon Brown seems to think so, and this week he criticised
:20:45. > :20:45.Conservative ministers for relying on "threats
:20:46. > :20:50.With the Edinburgh Festival approaching, reports suggest even
:20:51. > :20:53.comedians are now reluctant to engage in the subject because
:20:54. > :21:00.I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie
:21:01. > :21:14.They're both in our Glasgow studio, and they're going head to head.
:21:15. > :21:21.Blair Jenkins, let me come to you first. Why have you and the Better
:21:22. > :21:24.Together campaign and Alex Salmond not done more to slap down the cyber
:21:25. > :21:30.nationalists who are poisoning the debate? Good morning. I think both
:21:31. > :21:34.sides tried to stop the tiny number of people on both sides who are
:21:35. > :21:39.incapable of controlling themselves. We should not get this
:21:40. > :21:43.out of proportion. We are having a fantastic, decent and democratic
:21:44. > :21:48.debate. The people who probably total no more than 100 on both sides
:21:49. > :21:53.who post offensive material or not to be allowed to deflect from that
:21:54. > :21:56.fact. Of course there are nasty people on the Better Together side
:21:57. > :22:00.as well, but are you saying there are as many of those as the cyber
:22:01. > :22:06.nationalists? I have not done the Kent. Lots of people are certainly
:22:07. > :22:12.posting nasty in defensive things to people in the yes campaigners well.
:22:13. > :22:18.I imagine that people do what I do, and block them. You stop them from
:22:19. > :22:23.sending anything further. There is a democratic and in gauging progress
:22:24. > :22:28.going on throughout Scotland. It is characterised by good humour and
:22:29. > :22:33.good debate. We should not get out of proportion and the activities of
:22:34. > :22:36.the number of people. I want to get to Jackie Baillie. The debate is
:22:37. > :22:41.actually pretty good-humoured and you should be doing more about the
:22:42. > :22:46.nasties on your side as well? I think we have reached a new low this
:22:47. > :22:49.week. Despite many people engaging in the politics of the decision and
:22:50. > :22:55.the debate about that, whether we want to retain the best of both
:22:56. > :23:00.worlds are separate from the United Kingdom, what we have seen is the
:23:01. > :23:08.most abusive and vitriolic attack, particularly on women, JK Rowling
:23:09. > :23:11.and a Labour supporter who dared to support the no campaign. When you
:23:12. > :23:17.look at the number of people on social media, there are more from
:23:18. > :23:22.the yes campaign than the no site. We should all be condemning attacks,
:23:23. > :23:29.from whatever quarter they come. This seemed to be connected to the
:23:30. > :23:34.office of the First Minister. What is the evidence for that? There was
:23:35. > :23:39.an e-mail from one of the... I understand about that, but it did
:23:40. > :23:47.not use vile words. It did not, but it repeated the same mistake as on
:23:48. > :23:52.the website. We should be clear that we need to condemn these attacks,
:23:53. > :23:58.but it is not just the water works, it is taking action. There was an
:23:59. > :24:02.IpsosMORI poll this week which was varying testing. It showed the
:24:03. > :24:06.population as a whole, farmer people think that Yes Scotland is running
:24:07. > :24:13.an effective campaign as against Better Together. It is a undecided
:24:14. > :24:21.voters think this by a majority of four 21. Some people are worried
:24:22. > :24:26.about of the campaign. JK Rowling, Scotland's most successful author of
:24:27. > :24:30.all time. She gives ?1 million to the Better Together campaign. She
:24:31. > :24:37.then faces some of the most incredible abuse. I know what it is
:24:38. > :24:43.like because I have had some myself. Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some
:24:44. > :24:47.of the words, it is Sunday morning. Why does Scottish Nationalists
:24:48. > :24:52.culture have such a revolting fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to
:24:53. > :24:55.our views and it is unacceptable if people say offensive things about
:24:56. > :25:00.her or anyone else who voices and opinion in this debate. Who are
:25:01. > :25:04.obese people? When you look at the accounts of some of the people who
:25:05. > :25:09.were posting these things about JK Rowling, they were using the same
:25:10. > :25:16.sort of language about film stars and football stars. This was just
:25:17. > :25:21.part of their language on Twitter. How often has Alex Salmond condemned
:25:22. > :25:27.the cyber nationalists? Very often. Everyone in the campaign hands. By
:25:28. > :25:30.common consent, Yes Scotland is running a thoroughly positive
:25:31. > :25:35.campaign, much more positive than Better Together. Jackie Baillie, it
:25:36. > :25:41.hardly helps matters when Alistair Darling, who runs your campaign,
:25:42. > :25:46.compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il and North Korea. That hardly
:25:47. > :25:51.elevates the debate? I think we need to elevate the debate. There are
:25:52. > :25:59.less than a hundred days to go. It is a massive decision. We need to
:26:00. > :26:03.elevate the debate beyond attacks. I think there is much more that Yes
:26:04. > :26:12.Scotland and the SNP can do. You have made that point. Why are you
:26:13. > :26:18.running a campaign based on fear? The codename of your campaign is
:26:19. > :26:23.even project fear. It is threats. You cannot have the pound, there
:26:24. > :26:27.will be no shipbuilding. You will be flooded by immigrants. Why are you
:26:28. > :26:32.so negative? I am not negative at all and neither is the campaign. The
:26:33. > :26:35.campaign has asked questions and I think it is legitimate to ask
:26:36. > :26:40.questions of the people proposing such a fundamental change. People
:26:41. > :26:45.care about the economy, their jobs, their families. What would happen to
:26:46. > :26:50.them if they leave the rest of the United Kingdom. I think it is
:26:51. > :26:55.legitimate to ask questions. I refuse to be asked of
:26:56. > :27:01.scaremongering. People deserve answers. The yes campaign is equally
:27:02. > :27:10.guilty of some of the most outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you
:27:11. > :27:14.are both scaremongering. Blair Jenkins, the First Minister said of
:27:15. > :27:20.the cyber nationalists, that they are just Daft folk, as if they were
:27:21. > :27:24.mischievous little children. It is worse than that. When you look at
:27:25. > :27:31.what they say, they are twisted, perhaps even evil minds. I would not
:27:32. > :27:35.disagree with his comments, but they are directed at just a small number
:27:36. > :27:40.of people. The story of this campaign is not the story of what
:27:41. > :27:44.people are saying on Twitter. Around Scotland, lots of people are getting
:27:45. > :27:51.engaged in debate to have been tuned out of the political process. Today,
:27:52. > :27:56.we have 47% support for the yes campaign. The movement in the
:27:57. > :28:02.campaign is towards yes. People know we have a better campaign, a vision
:28:03. > :28:07.for Scotland. The latest poll of polls does not show that. Both
:28:08. > :28:11.sides, you always take the opinion polls that show you in the best
:28:12. > :28:15.light. All politicians do that. Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not
:28:16. > :28:24.just negative, it is patronising. You make dubious claims that Scots
:28:25. > :28:31.would be ?1400 better off by staying in the union, and then you say that
:28:32. > :28:34.the kids use the money to scoff 280 hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival.
:28:35. > :28:40.The fate of the nation is in your hands and that is the best you can
:28:41. > :28:46.do? I think you will find that the campaign is something that we are
:28:47. > :28:52.taking the message to people. Then why are you talking about hotdogs? I
:28:53. > :28:56.do not. The campaign did. We are taking a positive message to people
:28:57. > :29:01.across Scotland about the benefits of the United Kingdom. We believe we
:29:02. > :29:05.are stronger and more secure and more stable, being part of that
:29:06. > :29:10.family of nations that is the United Kingdom. At the same time, we have
:29:11. > :29:17.the strange and power over things like education and transport. I
:29:18. > :29:21.understand that. I am not doing the issues today, I am talking about the
:29:22. > :29:26.tone of the campaign. I have one very important question. Who would
:29:27. > :29:32.you supporting last night in the England-Italy match? I was not
:29:33. > :29:37.watching the game. I would be delighted to see England do well in
:29:38. > :29:41.this tournament. I have Argentina in the office sweepstake. I have to
:29:42. > :29:46.keep some attention on them, but I would be delighted to seeing Clint
:29:47. > :29:53.do well. That is because you think it will help your campaign. It will
:29:54. > :29:54.annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie? I was supporting England. I was also
:29:55. > :30:01.supporting Portugal. Now most of you probably missed last
:30:02. > :30:03.night's football match between England and Italy because
:30:04. > :30:06.you wanted to get an early night and England lost
:30:07. > :30:11.despite a plucky effort, I'm told. But even Westminster is
:30:12. > :30:13.in the grip of World Cup fever and with speculation
:30:14. > :30:16.about the fitness of each political party's team we sent Adam out to
:30:17. > :30:23.tackle some of the big players. Well, this is
:30:24. > :30:35.the closest I'll get to Rio. This year everybody seems to have
:30:36. > :30:41.gone a bit mad Belize, football stickers. Let's see who I will get.
:30:42. > :30:46.Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for these. George Osborne? That is
:30:47. > :30:49.because we leapt on the bandwagon and made Alan political stickers.
:30:50. > :30:53.They're hotter than a Brazilian barbecue.
:30:54. > :31:03.Sunday politics political stickers. We have one of you, Norman. Would
:31:04. > :31:05.you like it? Do you want to start collecting, Bob? Would you like a
:31:06. > :31:06.packet? collecting, Bob? Would you like a
:31:07. > :31:14.Thank you. No album, I'm afraid. collecting, Bob? Would you like a
:31:15. > :31:19.Thank you. No album, I've got Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and
:31:20. > :31:26.two of the Prime Minister. -- next to Theresa. I am sure Michael has
:31:27. > :31:27.Theresa in her stick around, and vice versa.
:31:28. > :31:29.These Tory ones are proving very popular
:31:30. > :31:32.since she fell out with him out how to handle extremism in schools.
:31:33. > :31:35.And there's been open speculation about him taking on him in
:31:36. > :31:44.Then there are rumours of a reshuffle of the whole Tory album.
:31:45. > :31:54.Do you think there will be any swapping in the Tory leadership
:31:55. > :31:57.soon? Who knows? David Cameron has also got to replace the EU
:31:58. > :31:58.commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is standing down.
:31:59. > :32:00.Does he go with the favourite the former health secretary
:32:01. > :32:03.Or the grassroots choice, Martin Callanan, the Tories old
:32:04. > :32:08.Or does he rehabilitate Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate?
:32:09. > :32:22.Do you fancy being European Commissioner? I would rather be
:32:23. > :32:24.spending the money on the world's poor and spending it well. Glad to
:32:25. > :32:27.hear it. Happy collecting. Right, there must be some Labour
:32:28. > :32:35.stickers out there. You don't want to swap Ed Balls any
:32:36. > :32:38.of the others? Can't I keep them all? This is almost the perfect
:32:39. > :32:38.team. There have been grumblings
:32:39. > :32:42.about the fitness of the Shadow And Ed Miliband's got a kicking
:32:43. > :32:46.in Liverpool after posing I'm told grown men are meeting up
:32:47. > :32:57.in pubs for sticker swaps - With Danny Finkelstein -
:32:58. > :33:10.Tory peer and Times columnist, He would be the card I would not
:33:11. > :33:15.want to trade. Do people want to trade him in? I don't think anybody
:33:16. > :33:18.wants to trade him in at the moment. He is the best person to lead the
:33:19. > :33:22.Labour party and will lead us into the next election. There's been a
:33:23. > :33:26.lot about Michael Gove, and he's very combative. That's been a huge
:33:27. > :33:28.strength as an education Secretary, despite the fact it's brought in
:33:29. > :33:32.trouble. I would think the prime minister would tell him not to get
:33:33. > :33:38.himself into peripheral battles at the moment but stick to what has
:33:39. > :33:44.been successful. I haven't got Nick Clegg, but I got me. Controversy
:33:45. > :33:48.amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I need to give away me in return for
:33:49. > :33:51.Nick Clegg. That would be far better. There you are.
:33:52. > :33:55.Some local parties are holding meetings about his leadership,
:33:56. > :33:58.but at one in Cambridge this week they voted to stick with him.
:33:59. > :34:08.You have got a Euro Commissioner. Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed
:34:09. > :34:13.Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do that? What is the significance of
:34:14. > :34:17.that? Very significant. Happy collecting.
:34:18. > :34:19.These beauties are popping up everywhere, but sadly they won't
:34:20. > :34:29.Adam is still doing the samba around Westminster as I speak.
:34:30. > :34:31.I'm joined by three journalists who've been
:34:32. > :34:33.furiously swapping stickers throughout the show, they certainly
:34:34. > :34:36.weren't allowed to stay up to watch the football, it's Nick Watt,
:34:37. > :34:45.We will talk about Labour after the break, and I want to concentrate on
:34:46. > :34:50.the Tories, but the moment, Nick, senior Tories are saying privately
:34:51. > :34:57.that they might win next May. They are beginning to dream the dream. So
:34:58. > :35:04.why are they doing all this jockeying? I think the jockeying for
:35:05. > :35:11.the leadership is about a year old. What stoped it up was when Theresa
:35:12. > :35:14.gave a speech to the conference, and people said she was doing it just in
:35:15. > :35:19.case, when things were not looking too good. She is not on manoeuvres.
:35:20. > :35:22.I think it was a policy row that drove the differences with Michael
:35:23. > :35:26.Gove. But Michael Gove is on manoeuvres, and he is trying to
:35:27. > :35:33.protect George Osborne from, he believes, a serious threat from
:35:34. > :35:36.Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa. It is quite self-indulgent when you
:35:37. > :35:38.are a couple of points behind, the economy is going your way, to be
:35:39. > :35:50.involved in this sort of stuff. Extraordinary. It shows the toxic
:35:51. > :35:54.disease that gnaws at the entrails of the Tory party, and Cameron is
:35:55. > :35:59.their great asset. He is more popular than the party, he bridges
:36:00. > :36:01.the gap is, and he has an extraordinary dissemble and some
:36:02. > :36:06.pretending to be this moderate while never the lens -- nevertheless
:36:07. > :36:09.leading the most far right wing government we have had since the
:36:10. > :37:59.war, and that has been a brilliant piece of political
:38:00. > :38:14.Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:38:15. > :38:16.programme: Former SNP leader Gordon Wilson recommends taking the
:38:17. > :38:18.referendum attack to Westminster's door. He'll be joining us live to
:38:19. > :38:21.explain what he means. The Crown Office welcomes a fall in
:38:22. > :38:23.prosecutions for football-related sectarianism, but the law is still
:38:24. > :38:26.explain what he means. The Crown Office welcomes a fall in
:38:27. > :38:28.prosecutions for football-related sectarianism, but the law is still
:38:29. > :38:39.proving controversial. We have lots more that we can do to bring tension
:38:40. > :38:44.and defence at football games. This legislation was pushing in the wrong
:38:45. > :38:48.direction. I would like to CBS FA -- S F a taker for greater role.
:38:49. > :38:51.If you went back in time to 1982 and told the SNP leader
:38:52. > :38:54.Gordon Wilson that 32 years on there would be an SNP majority government
:38:55. > :38:57.in a Scottish Parliament holding a referendum on independence, he would
:38:58. > :38:58.probably say, in his usual characteristic way,
:38:59. > :39:05.During Wilson's time at the top, the party was divided
:39:06. > :39:08.But foundations were laid for later success
:39:09. > :39:10.and the former leader is fully participating in today's debate.
:39:11. > :39:19.We'll speak to him live in a moment, but first here's Andrew Kerr.
:39:20. > :39:26.A career defining moment for Gordon Wilson's leadership. I am now
:39:27. > :39:35.convinced that the party will not recover its unity until all
:39:36. > :39:40.organised groups are banned. The 79 Group walk-out. Of which Alex
:39:41. > :39:49.Salmond was a member. The SNP group was struggling. Professor Murray
:39:50. > :39:58.Pettit was there that day. He was very courteous, very clear-cut, and
:39:59. > :40:09.always working to conciliate, to bring with them, but without
:40:10. > :40:13.actually compromising to much extent. Not a very flexible
:40:14. > :40:19.character, but flexible enough to strike a delicate balance between
:40:20. > :40:25.consensus and leadership. The professor says that Gordon Wilson
:40:26. > :40:29.now and then is an original thinker, which leads to different views from
:40:30. > :40:43.the current leadership. He suggests keeping an open mind in the EU,
:40:44. > :40:53.Alex Salmond is used to having what he says goes. When someone with the
:40:54. > :40:56.stature of Gordon Wilson comes up with contrary views, that will not
:40:57. > :41:01.go down terribly well with the leadership. They will smile and try
:41:02. > :41:06.to brush it off, but deep down he can be a thorn in the flesh. That
:41:07. > :41:14.could be a description that Gordon Wilson now relishes after his own
:41:15. > :41:18.turbulence time as leader. Listening to that is Gordon Wilson.
:41:19. > :41:22.Let us move onto your thoughts on the way that the campaign is going
:41:23. > :41:27.the moment. I am curious as to what you have made of the way that the
:41:28. > :41:38.Scottish Government has handled things this week. It has been very
:41:39. > :41:43.difficult for them. I think it turns on the technicality, basically,
:41:44. > :41:45.first of all, as to whether or not the Ministerial Code was breached.
:41:46. > :41:51.If that was breached then the resignation should the excepted.
:41:52. > :41:57.Also, of course... His resignation has not been tendered. No, because
:41:58. > :42:01.it has not been offered, and it has not yet established that it was a
:42:02. > :42:06.breach of Ministerial Code. Do you think that he should go? Only if he
:42:07. > :42:12.has breached the code, which is illegal requirement. And if the
:42:13. > :42:16.story becomes greater than that of the SNP Government. It is well-known
:42:17. > :42:25.that PR men in government have to leave if their profile... But you
:42:26. > :42:28.say that it is established that he has broken the code, but if he is
:42:29. > :42:33.not tendering his resignation and Alex Salmond is not sacking him, who
:42:34. > :42:43.has expected to establish if the court has been broken and not? Black
:42:44. > :42:49.--. Normally it is the permanent secretary. I can apply my experience
:42:50. > :42:51.over the years, that if you secretary. I can apply my experience
:42:52. > :42:55.over the years, that have got a big story and it is going on and on and
:42:56. > :43:01.on then you have got to deal with it. Equally it may lapse because
:43:02. > :43:11.there are other things happening. So you think that he should stay unless
:43:12. > :43:15.it becomes too big a new story. If he has breached the code then he has
:43:16. > :43:24.to go. As he has not breached the code but there is a PR problem then
:43:25. > :43:28.he may need to go. If neither of these apply then Campbell Gunn
:43:29. > :43:33.should stay. I'm interested on the comments on the debate from Hillary
:43:34. > :43:38.Clinton, the Pope, President Obama. It sounded at first that Scotland
:43:39. > :43:44.was becoming a pariah amongst these nations. But I think the Pope
:43:45. > :43:48.particularly was studiously neutral. It is a very interesting thing,
:43:49. > :43:53.isn't it, that presidents go to our land and to London and they never
:43:54. > :44:00.come to Scotland. I was taken by President Obama's remark. He said
:44:01. > :44:04.that from the outside things seem to work. The problem is that from the
:44:05. > :44:08.inside the union is not working, the Scots are suffering and it is hardly
:44:09. > :44:16.surprising that they will treat this shifty attitude from President
:44:17. > :44:19.Obama, who has no doubt been prepped by Cameron, with the respect it
:44:20. > :44:26.requires. So you think you should not have been involved? He is
:44:27. > :44:31.perfectly entitled to be involved, that is up to him. But the Americans
:44:32. > :44:36.have to look to the future. They have got Britain like Joe Yule, or a
:44:37. > :44:55.puppet on a string, written does everything that they want. Why
:44:56. > :44:58.should they want separation? You described him as shifty? He was
:44:59. > :45:04.under pressure to say something, he had been asked to, and body else
:45:05. > :45:08.knew that, which is not the sort of predicament that a President of the
:45:09. > :45:11.United States wants to be in. He is just doing the young boy a favour.
:45:12. > :45:20.In the document you produced this week, which is one of your
:45:21. > :45:25.occasional missives on what you think the yes camp should be doing.
:45:26. > :45:28.You say that they have to begin the initiative. But some of the poll
:45:29. > :45:37.suggests that they have been doing just that. Yes, I am elated by
:45:38. > :45:41.that, but do not forget that we still have to get past the 50% mark,
:45:42. > :45:49.and not only that I would like to see the momentum build up so that we
:45:50. > :45:53.go well past the 50% mark. Believe you me, if it is a narrow majority
:45:54. > :45:59.then London will want a rerun and will try to manipulate that into
:46:00. > :46:02.doing so. Do not accept that the London politicians are natural
:46:03. > :46:06.Democrats when it comes to Scotland. Scotland they regard as their
:46:07. > :46:11.possession, their colony, and they will not let it go unless they are
:46:12. > :46:16.forced to. But what you think the Yes campaign needs to do that it is
:46:17. > :46:20.not doing now? Two things. When people go to the ballot box in
:46:21. > :46:27.September, they will do so with many different reasons. But I think that
:46:28. > :46:31.at the point of the decision, some people will have to decide on the
:46:32. > :46:36.question of identity, where they see their future. In Britain, are in an
:46:37. > :46:42.independent Scotland. On the yes side, it has two project a vision of
:46:43. > :46:47.a better Scotland... But Alex Salmond would say that he does
:46:48. > :46:52.little else. Mac I do not know. I think that my job is to persuade
:46:53. > :46:56.Alex Salmond to up his game of it. The vision thing is very important.
:46:57. > :47:02.I am sorry to pretend to be Alex Salmond, but if I were him... Loom
:47:03. > :47:07.at your doing a very good example. I think that I would say to you, for
:47:08. > :47:15.heaven 's sake, I was out the other day making a speech about how
:47:16. > :47:21.exports in Scotland could go up under an independent Scotland. It is
:47:22. > :47:25.coming from a number of sources, not just orchestrated through the SNP
:47:26. > :47:28.Government. What we need is greater input from other leaders in Scotland
:47:29. > :47:38.who favour a yes but have ideas as to what should be done, but the
:47:39. > :47:41.other side of the coin, we have to point out that Britain is not
:47:42. > :47:47.necessarily a good thing. How can you be a member of a country with an
:47:48. > :47:54.850 strong parasitic house of lords, non-elected, deciding the laws...
:47:55. > :47:59.But the SNP never stop banging on about this stuff. Not by my
:48:00. > :48:03.standards. I think I may be slightly more tough than the SNP when it
:48:04. > :48:08.comes to hammering London. And they should also look at the economic
:48:09. > :48:20.issues, because that is the thing that will determine the votes of
:48:21. > :48:24.lots of people. Jim Sillars rates on the same website that you call
:48:25. > :48:30.offer. He said that Alex Salmond was a liability. I think he was wrong.
:48:31. > :48:37.Sadly I was in the Middle East when that happened. I'm asking if you
:48:38. > :48:42.agree with him. No, I do not think so. If you took him out of the
:48:43. > :48:46.equation they would be a huge gap. But the opposition are saying that
:48:47. > :48:51.if you vote yes then you are voting for the SNP and the SNP Government,
:48:52. > :48:54.whereas, this is Scotland's referendum and Alex Salmond is a
:48:55. > :48:58.servant of the people in this respect. So he has the most
:48:59. > :49:05.substantial role to play as First Minister, but going back to my seem,
:49:06. > :49:08.we are required to orchestrated much more broadly. You would prefer if an
:49:09. > :49:13.independent Scotland had its own currency. Does it concern you that
:49:14. > :49:17.there is no plan B on currency from the Scottish Government, that there
:49:18. > :49:22.is just this and systems over and over again that the Unionist parties
:49:23. > :49:27.are lying when they say that they will not contemplate a currency
:49:28. > :49:30.union? Do you think that the Scottish Government should, in
:49:31. > :49:34.fact, not just have a plan B but be putting some mechanisms in place in
:49:35. > :49:39.the eventuality that there is a Yes vote? I expect that there is quite a
:49:40. > :49:44.bit of thinking going on inside the fiscal commission for Scotland on
:49:45. > :49:48.these issues. Let me put it to you in my capacity as a former
:49:49. > :49:54.politician. If the SNP had come up with plan B, plan C, Landy, etc, it
:49:55. > :49:59.would have subjected them to immediate hostile criticism. The
:50:00. > :50:03.fact of the matter, and it is a question, I believe that it is a
:50:04. > :50:07.bluff on the part of Westminster, but if not then Scotland will adopt
:50:08. > :50:13.the same currency as sterling and use it. And even then, you see, even
:50:14. > :50:18.if there were a fiscal is on the Red Hat to be a period of five or ten
:50:19. > :50:21.years where we were within the pound sterling area and then we could have
:50:22. > :50:30.our own currency, we could float it, but only after consultation and only
:50:31. > :50:42.after it is observe the play -- after she is beneficial to Scottish
:50:43. > :50:47.business. The financial markets will react to the reality of the
:50:48. > :50:56.situation that the trading position will be stronger. So, I don't
:50:57. > :50:59.think... The problem for London is because if you take away the
:51:00. > :51:04.Scottish exports the balance of trade immediately diminishes and the
:51:05. > :51:10.financial markets will have two look at that. There has to be
:51:11. > :51:14.Corporation. One thing you said was people should not take so if Labour
:51:15. > :51:21.promises from the Unionist parties for more devolution. Why not? A lot
:51:22. > :51:27.of the Yes campaign on devolution seems to assume the other side of
:51:28. > :51:34.the debate are lying. The track record is that from 1945 onwards
:51:35. > :51:41.there have been promises from London being broken again and again and
:51:42. > :51:44.again. The only react to the pressures of votes from within
:51:45. > :51:49.Scotland, if there is pressure they give powers but remember Enoch
:51:50. > :51:54.Powell said that power devolved is power retained. A few months ago
:51:55. > :51:58.they passed an order taking away energy powers from the Scottish
:51:59. > :52:03.government. Without much consultation... They can do what
:52:04. > :52:11.they like and if Scotland votes no, Scotland will be defenceless, in a
:52:12. > :52:16.skilful way they will start fitting Scottish institutions and secondly
:52:17. > :52:22.people don't really know that the next round of public expenditure
:52:23. > :52:26.cuts, 25 billion, is down the road and the day after the next
:52:27. > :52:31.Westminster general election it will come into effect. That is something
:52:32. > :52:34.which should exercise our minds because a lot of the things the
:52:35. > :52:41.Scottish Parliament under Labour and SNP which people like will be under
:52:42. > :52:48.pressure. Tuition fees may have to go, NHS may be like being this one.
:52:49. > :52:59.You can spin those out of thin air but the point is... Cuts are a
:53:00. > :53:05.reality. That is a different issue from devolution. People say why
:53:06. > :53:11.should we believe them? I have an advantage on you because I spent
:53:12. > :53:15.some years on the Isle of Man and they are an autonomous government,
:53:16. > :53:21.they toe the line on many things, hardly pay income taxed, they have
:53:22. > :53:27.managed well. They have 75,000 people. Scotland will still be taxed
:53:28. > :53:30.by Westminster. It is a matter of experience throughout the world you
:53:31. > :53:33.get these situations. The Scots would be foolish to ignore it. Thank
:53:34. > :53:37.you for joining us. As national teams are playing
:53:38. > :53:40.in Brazil for the World Cup, here , two years on from the introduction
:53:41. > :53:43.of controversial legislation aimed at criminalising religious hatred
:53:44. > :53:44.in Scottish football, calls This week,
:53:45. > :53:48.figures released by the Crown Office showed there were fewer sectarian
:53:49. > :53:51.incidents recorded at the season Thanks, it says,
:53:52. > :53:59.in part to the offensive behaviour at football act, which gave
:54:00. > :54:01.prosecutors additional powers to crack down on sectarian songs
:54:02. > :54:04.and abuse at matches and online. At the same time figure released to
:54:05. > :54:07.this programme show more than 70% of charges under the act were
:54:08. > :54:24.concentrated in just three areas. This, the shame game of 2011 is seen
:54:25. > :54:31.by many as the catalyst for Scotland's newest football
:54:32. > :54:39.legislation. , crowbar has to be a winner in Glasgow tonight and the
:54:40. > :54:44.winner takes it all. The reputation of Scottish football was the loser
:54:45. > :54:48.on the night, it was agreed offensive behaviour had to be
:54:49. > :54:55.tackled but the solution was controversial. How we police
:54:56. > :55:01.football games is no different now than it has been four years or 20
:55:02. > :55:10.years ago. We have lots more we can do to bring tension and the
:55:11. > :55:12.legislation is pushing it in the wrong direction. The act aims to
:55:13. > :55:19.criminalise religious hatred in football. Some still feel the closer
:55:20. > :55:25.scrutiny and intensified policing implies and a comfortable distrust
:55:26. > :55:31.of fans. Immediately before this bill, we had a situation where
:55:32. > :55:38.policing in Scotland was mature, effective and was different than it
:55:39. > :55:44.had been in the 1970s and 80s. Police by consent is light touch.
:55:45. > :55:47.Where we have got to now is policing by confrontation and control and it
:55:48. > :55:56.is a horrible place. There is agreement that fans are not the
:55:57. > :56:00.problem. The act is dealing with the misbehaving minority. Figures show
:56:01. > :56:06.over the last 12 months, the number prosecuted for offensive behaviour
:56:07. > :56:10.has gone down by 24%. The majority had affiliations with Celtic or
:56:11. > :56:17.Rangers. Figures released show since the act was introduced, 469 people
:56:18. > :56:25.have been charged with offences under the act. 338, 72%, which
:56:26. > :56:30.charged in the greater Glasgow, Ayrshire and Lanarkshire areas.
:56:31. > :56:33.There were four prosecutions in Dumfries Galloway. Most offences
:56:34. > :56:38.related to singing or speech in or around football grounds. The chief
:56:39. > :56:46.legal officer believes the reduction in offences compared to last year is
:56:47. > :56:52.thanks to the act. I am confident that it is needed. And I'm confident
:56:53. > :56:58.it has been used appropriately. I am confident that in time, as we see
:56:59. > :57:04.from the figures, there has been an improvement in behaviour at football
:57:05. > :57:09.matches. But it is only the second year. I am aware of the fact there
:57:10. > :57:15.are old firm matches. We want to see the effect. The lord advocate says
:57:16. > :57:21.the majority of fans can enjoy matches without being affected by
:57:22. > :57:25.the legislation. There is concern elsewhere that the culture
:57:26. > :57:29.surrounding the game has all ready been altered. It makes people more
:57:30. > :57:35.frightened to be able to speak their minds. And is in its people's sense
:57:36. > :57:42.you have a free society where you can discuss things all say things.
:57:43. > :57:45.Another major change is it is now encouraging football fans to play
:57:46. > :57:51.the offence card so you will find more and more Celtic and Rangers and
:57:52. > :58:00.other fans phoning the police on one another. Despite challenges from
:58:01. > :58:04.fans and clubs, a review of the legislation will not happen before
:58:05. > :58:43.August next year. After another football season and, of course,
:58:44. > :58:50.major fixtures at the ballot box. The rank-and-file police officers
:58:51. > :58:57.think it is vague and not using the legislation and we don't have the
:58:58. > :59:05.old firm matches which has been a focal point. You give the act no
:59:06. > :59:09.credit? Lets look at the experts, the churches, well-meaning fans, the
:59:10. > :59:15.campaign groups, the rank and file police officers, concerns about the
:59:16. > :59:19.act. We all think rather than playing politics, let's recognise
:59:20. > :59:25.there is an issue and we need to take action. It requires not my
:59:26. > :59:29.legislation but the right legal framework and funding and
:59:30. > :59:36.appropriate education. We have seen funding cut. Sandra, what do you
:59:37. > :59:42.make that it is unrelated? It is related in the falling numbers. The
:59:43. > :59:50.act is working. The 24% drop is proof. He makes assumptions, talking
:59:51. > :59:54.about the fans and groups who are not supportive but many people are
:59:55. > :00:01.very supportive of the legislation and it is proof it is working. When
:00:02. > :00:08.you talk about coming forward in 2015, we must remember that was a
:00:09. > :00:13.Justice committee put forward an amendment to the bill to ask for
:00:14. > :00:15.2015. It has been accepted -- accepted by the Scottish government
:00:16. > :00:22.that there will be a report. I believe... Next year, you will sit
:00:23. > :00:25.down and look at it and will say this is fantastic, let's keep it
:00:26. > :00:32.going or you will do what you did with the tax and shove it to one
:00:33. > :00:37.side. People asked to put forward a report and the Scottish government
:00:38. > :00:41.says, we will take it on board, you need to look at the facts and
:00:42. > :00:48.figures, 24% drop in offences, it is working. It isn't unreasonable to
:00:49. > :00:53.say let's give this a chance and look at it next year. What is the
:00:54. > :00:57.difference? You can have the argument next year but it isn't
:00:58. > :01:05.unreasonable to give it a chance. There needs to be a funding
:01:06. > :01:12.commitment. Do we have a commitment of funding will stay in place?
:01:13. > :01:17.You want rid of this law, I suggest Sandra has a point when she says
:01:18. > :01:21.let's review it in 2015 as the government said they would do. How
:01:22. > :01:27.can you disagree? Your macro all opposition parties united in the
:01:28. > :01:33.parliament to say the legislation was the wrong thing and sent the
:01:34. > :01:38.wrong message. The campaign groups as well who expressed concern about
:01:39. > :01:44.the legislation. The right approach is to repeal the act. Opposition
:01:45. > :01:53.parties on the Justice committee agreed this. It is untrue to say
:01:54. > :01:58.that everyone apart from the government are for or against. There
:01:59. > :02:02.were opposition parties, members who work for it. There has to be an
:02:03. > :02:07.exception is that in terms of the faith and trust of the fans, the
:02:08. > :02:11.majority of well-meaning fans, do not have faith and trust in the
:02:12. > :02:15.deflation. The police officers have expressed concern. The Sheriff
:02:16. > :02:26.expressed concern with the legislation. Let's get away from the
:02:27. > :02:34.legal stuff, what do you make of the point that we want racial abuse and
:02:35. > :02:38.sexual abuse and it is not acceptable but in a way laws like
:02:39. > :02:46.this encourage people to take offence. You hear a song and you are
:02:47. > :02:51.a fan and you say, I am shocked to the core, I bet find the police and
:02:52. > :02:58.that isn't necessarily what you want to be in courage. What he was saying
:02:59. > :03:03.is the assumption was it was tip for tat. If you say something offensive,
:03:04. > :03:10.it is offensive and the law is here to stop that. It isn't spelt out
:03:11. > :03:18.what it is. Not all of the football fans... There are a number of
:03:19. > :03:22.groups. If someone says it is offensive and the language is
:03:23. > :03:30.offensive, you need to look at it seriously. Should Scotland be
:03:31. > :03:38.putting up with that? The groups who are saying others are offensive are
:03:39. > :03:43.in the category you mentioned. There are different points from different
:03:44. > :03:48.groups. This is the confusion. The law has added confusion. We have
:03:49. > :03:55.breach of the peace legislation or ready. This is working. It isn't
:03:56. > :03:59.working! To be continued. Thank you both very much.
:04:00. > :04:00.You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland.
:04:01. > :04:03.Let's cross now for the news with Andrew Kerr.
:04:04. > :04:07.A new technique for detecting bowel cancer is to be
:04:08. > :04:12.About 20,000 patients in Tayside, Fife, Grampian
:04:13. > :04:16.and Glasgow health board areas will be offered "scope screening",
:04:17. > :04:22.The 15-minute procedure can detect polyps that could
:04:23. > :04:28.The Queen's baton will continue the Scottish leg of its journey today
:04:29. > :04:33.Up to four-thousand people will carry it across the country
:04:34. > :04:36.in the run up to the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.
:04:37. > :04:38.Today it travels around West Lothian taking in
:04:39. > :04:42.Linlithgow Palace where a series of events are planned.
:04:43. > :04:44.The Wimbledon champions Andy Murray and Marion Bartoli are
:04:45. > :04:47.among the big names taking part in the national "Rally for Bally"
:04:48. > :04:53.The Ukrainian-born former British number one, who grew up in Scotland,
:04:54. > :04:57.died of liver cancer last month, at the age of 30.
:04:58. > :04:59.Murray will be at the fundraising rally
:05:00. > :05:02.in Birmingham while an event will be held at Perth tennis club where
:05:03. > :05:08.That's the news let's now take a look at the weather forecast,
:05:09. > :05:27.A lot of fine, brakes, dry weather around. We start off with a fair bit
:05:28. > :05:29.of cloud around. That will thin and break in the afternoon, allowing
:05:30. > :05:36.good spells of sunshine to get going. Always a bit more in the way
:05:37. > :05:39.of cloud hanging on at East Coast. Rarely do get the best of the
:05:40. > :05:46.sunshine, towards Glasgow in the south-west, 21 or even 22 Celsius,
:05:47. > :05:48.and just the odd light shower. That is the forecast.
:05:49. > :06:10.Now back to Gordon. Both sides in the independence
:06:11. > :06:13.debate marked 100 days to go to the referendum. As former Prime Minister
:06:14. > :06:19.Gordon Brown cold for David Cameron to debate with Alex Salmond on TV
:06:20. > :06:24.and head of the vote. There has been a rise in greenhouse gas emissions
:06:25. > :06:28.in 2012. It is the third year in a row that the government target has
:06:29. > :06:31.been mist. Former US Secretary of State Hillary
:06:32. > :06:36.Clinton said she hoped Scotland did not become independent. We will see
:06:37. > :06:41.what the people of Scotland decide, but I would say that it would be a
:06:42. > :06:46.loss for both sides, but I do not have a vote.
:06:47. > :06:51.The First Minister said the full powers of independence with this
:06:52. > :06:58.economy. Campaigners in the yes and no camps have welcomed comments from
:06:59. > :07:04.the Pope. Pope Francis told a Catalonian newspaper that states
:07:05. > :07:11.breaking away should be considered on a case-by-case basis.
:07:12. > :07:20.Let us take a look at what is coming up in the week ahead.
:07:21. > :07:32.I'm joined by George Kerevan, and Kirsty Scott. Let us talk about the
:07:33. > :07:36.polls. We have now had three polls in three days, which seemed to show
:07:37. > :07:42.that there is a bit of an uptake in the support for the yes side.
:07:43. > :07:46.Anybody in the yes camp reading the newspapers this morning would have
:07:47. > :08:01.been smelling over their cornflakes. Within a couple of points over 50%
:08:02. > :08:05.going either way. I noticed one commentator saying that it could go
:08:06. > :08:12.either way. The issue is gender. Clearly there is a majority of men
:08:13. > :08:17.in Scotland, well beyond margins of error, who are going to vote yes.
:08:18. > :08:23.The gap or the yes campaigners with women. And it is whether the whole
:08:24. > :08:31.argument over JK Rowling is going to influence voters. What you make of
:08:32. > :08:36.these polls? I would like to see the polls that might next week after
:08:37. > :08:41.this week. They do show a narrowing. I believe that the latest one, they
:08:42. > :08:47.did it after JK Rowling's announcement. You think that she
:08:48. > :08:51.will have very much influence on women? I do not think that JK
:08:52. > :08:58.Rowling dead, but it is an issue for women and a large part of that is
:08:59. > :09:04.that it is a very male, very competent campaign -- combative
:09:05. > :09:21.campaign. That is pitting woman. Not so much JK Rowling, but... Do you
:09:22. > :09:28.think that the whole row with Campbell Gunn is making matters
:09:29. > :09:37.worse? The virtual that was heaped on this woman, it makes me
:09:38. > :09:41.uncomfortable. He is a good man, I do not think that it excuses what he
:09:42. > :09:47.did, I do not think it was part of any orchestrated campaign, but I
:09:48. > :09:53.think it sends a message that that kind of underhand tactic to
:09:54. > :09:58.undermine people is oche. I think that there was a lot of misogynistic
:09:59. > :10:11.comments online. I would be very interested to see in the polls what
:10:12. > :10:20.women are seeing next week. Do you think he should stay or go? If this
:10:21. > :10:24.role than next week then I would imagine he would fall on his sword.
:10:25. > :10:30.This is not about whether he stays or goes, it is about how women
:10:31. > :10:39.perceive that. I feel sorry for Campbell Gunn, all he did was to
:10:40. > :10:43.pick up points in the media where issues were being pushed the wrong
:10:44. > :11:03.way. It is quite clear in the relaunch, yet another one child
:11:04. > :11:12.better together, Clare Lally was being presented as not just an
:11:13. > :11:17.ordinary mother but a member of that campaign. She is an ordinary mother.
:11:18. > :11:22.Campbell Gunn was saying that he was correcting a mistake. He was trying
:11:23. > :11:29.to undermine our viewpoint that was different. One suspects that even if
:11:30. > :11:37.Campbell Gunn had not intervened in this, Clare Lally would have got
:11:38. > :11:45.dogs abuse from some sections of the cybernats anyway. The Rhino
:11:46. > :11:48.questions about it for me, if people are abusive to women we should root
:11:49. > :11:59.them out. We need to do something about it, and I blame editors for
:12:00. > :12:05.now pitting at the end of columns on the Internet, without pitting the
:12:06. > :12:13.name and the address, as they used to do, they put anonymous comments.
:12:14. > :12:20.I think we have to edit that. Ruth Davidson saying that if there is
:12:21. > :12:26.independence then you might be in favour of a currency union. Question
:12:27. > :12:32.was put her and it was very much qualified. She said, I want us to
:12:33. > :12:37.stay in the union, and she also said that she thought that an independent
:12:38. > :12:40.currency would be the best thing for an independent country, but I think
:12:41. > :12:44.it has been overplayed. But I can understand why people are jumping on
:12:45. > :12:49.it and seeing, this all goes to show. We still do not know what is
:12:50. > :12:54.green to happen in terms of currency, less than 100 days now. I
:12:55. > :12:59.think that Ruth Davidson is a breath of fresh air for the Tory party. She
:13:00. > :13:08.has taken the Tory party under demolition further than the Labour
:13:09. > :13:16.Party -- devolution. You organised and air show. Yes, last year, the
:13:17. > :13:22.air show was taking off again this year. What you think should happen
:13:23. > :13:28.to the airport? It is a great airport, we should keep it open. It
:13:29. > :13:31.would be great for freight and Scotland gets control of airline
:13:32. > :13:38.taxes, if we can reduce our taxes the way that the Irish have,
:13:39. > :13:46.Northern Ireland have volt control -- devolved control. This should
:13:47. > :13:52.keep it open as long as they changed their local!
:13:53. > :13:55.That is all from us this week. I will be back at the scene came next
:13:56. > :13:57.week. From all of us, goodbye.