:00:15. > :00:19.Good morning from Manchester, where politicians and the Labour
:00:20. > :00:20.conference are trying to work out what the independence fallout means
:00:21. > :00:58.for the rest of the UK. Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday
:00:59. > :01:02.Politics. Scotland's decision to vote no means more power is heading
:01:03. > :01:09.north of the border, but what about home rule for England? Independence
:01:10. > :01:13.for Scotland has been his life's work,. First Minister Alex Salmond
:01:14. > :01:17.tells us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And an
:01:18. > :01:23.exclusive survey of what the people who want to be Labour MPs think
:01:24. > :01:25.about immigration, the EU and their party. We will ask the Shadow
:01:26. > :01:26.Business Secretary if he agrees. Coming up in
:01:27. > :01:28.Sunday Politics Scotland: Alex Salmond accuses Westminster
:01:29. > :01:30.of reneging on further devolution. We'll be talking
:01:31. > :01:48.about the delivery of those extra for the capital? With me, the best
:01:49. > :01:52.and brightest political panel in the business, at least that is what they
:01:53. > :01:55.pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and, this week, we have
:01:56. > :02:03.done some devolution ourselves to other areas, and we have Sam Coates
:02:04. > :02:07.from the times. The union survived, but only at the cost of more powers
:02:08. > :02:09.for the Scottish parliament and enshrining the formula that gives
:02:10. > :02:14.Scotland a privileged position when it comes to public spending, which
:02:15. > :02:21.has MPs on both sides of the Commons of in arms. The Scottish question
:02:22. > :02:27.has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre
:02:28. > :02:34.stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was
:02:35. > :02:37.put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote,
:02:38. > :02:45.there was nothing about English-only votes. It was unconditional? The
:02:46. > :02:48.Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the
:02:49. > :02:53.proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this
:02:54. > :03:00.issue. That was very cautious. -- cautiously. These proposals will not
:03:01. > :03:03.get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only
:03:04. > :03:07.issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph.
:03:08. > :03:10.Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link
:03:11. > :03:12.between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says,
:03:13. > :03:28.is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away
:03:29. > :03:36.these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they
:03:37. > :03:40.weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism.
:03:41. > :03:43.Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't
:03:44. > :03:48.want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight
:03:49. > :03:51.timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night,
:03:52. > :03:55.most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish
:03:56. > :04:03.parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions
:04:04. > :04:06.in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional
:04:07. > :04:12.questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple
:04:13. > :04:15.reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories
:04:16. > :04:20.have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip
:04:21. > :04:24.out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a
:04:25. > :04:27.partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow
:04:28. > :04:33.through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers,
:04:34. > :04:39.but it's not clear you will get either before the general election.
:04:40. > :04:42.It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is.
:04:43. > :04:48.You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard
:04:49. > :04:53.to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for
:04:54. > :04:58.English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs
:04:59. > :05:01.get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London
:05:02. > :05:06.and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were
:05:07. > :05:10.before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed
:05:11. > :05:14.in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and
:05:15. > :05:17.the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the
:05:18. > :05:22.time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that
:05:23. > :05:27.would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see
:05:28. > :05:30.off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour
:05:31. > :05:33.backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws.
:05:34. > :05:39.Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases
:05:40. > :05:43.unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to
:05:44. > :05:47.the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about
:05:48. > :05:52.20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a
:05:53. > :05:57.coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to
:05:58. > :06:00.be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should
:06:01. > :06:06.probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment.
:06:07. > :06:12.But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one
:06:13. > :06:14.piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep
:06:15. > :06:17.something called the Barnett Formula.
:06:18. > :06:20.It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett.
:06:21. > :06:22.And it's how the UK government decides how much
:06:23. > :06:24.public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
:06:25. > :06:26.It's controversial, because it's led to public spending
:06:27. > :06:28.being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England.
:06:29. > :06:31.Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that.
:06:32. > :06:37.I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab.
:06:38. > :06:45.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the
:06:46. > :06:51.Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page
:06:52. > :06:55.of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial
:06:56. > :06:58.devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible
:06:59. > :07:02.not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been
:07:03. > :07:05.promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them,
:07:06. > :07:09.but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern
:07:10. > :07:13.Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue
:07:14. > :07:18.across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We
:07:19. > :07:21.have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to
:07:22. > :07:24.England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount
:07:25. > :07:29.spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West
:07:30. > :07:33.and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the
:07:34. > :07:37.elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and
:07:38. > :07:43.the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a
:07:44. > :07:47.sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the
:07:48. > :07:51.Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in
:07:52. > :07:58.contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would
:07:59. > :08:02.confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union
:08:03. > :08:07.on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft
:08:08. > :08:09.poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect
:08:10. > :08:12.and if anything was counter-productive to the overall
:08:13. > :08:18.result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted
:08:19. > :08:21.for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the
:08:22. > :08:26.promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would
:08:27. > :08:29.have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal
:08:30. > :08:33.Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett
:08:34. > :08:38.Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK,
:08:39. > :08:43.and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's
:08:44. > :08:46.trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in
:08:47. > :08:55.rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK
:08:56. > :08:58.-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending
:08:59. > :09:06.formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the
:09:07. > :09:09.oil revenues it sends to London. Scotland is only getting back on
:09:10. > :09:11.spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that
:09:12. > :09:20.suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let
:09:21. > :09:25.me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the
:09:26. > :09:32.Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A
:09:33. > :09:36.huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting
:09:37. > :09:39.North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need
:09:40. > :09:42.to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the
:09:43. > :09:47.Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and
:09:48. > :09:51.grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we
:09:52. > :09:57.need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,
:09:58. > :09:59.when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local
:10:00. > :10:03.authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland
:10:04. > :10:08.must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The
:10:09. > :10:13.Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for
:10:14. > :10:15.Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't
:10:16. > :10:19.he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?
:10:20. > :10:24.Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the
:10:25. > :10:30.heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth
:10:31. > :10:35.is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and
:10:36. > :10:39.English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot
:10:40. > :10:44.of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is
:10:45. > :10:48.unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should
:10:49. > :10:50.deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let's
:10:51. > :10:55.deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they
:10:56. > :10:57.locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for
:10:58. > :10:59.joining us. The man responsible
:11:00. > :11:01.for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within
:11:02. > :11:04.touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic
:11:05. > :11:06.announcements, and he gave us another on Friday
:11:07. > :11:08.when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute
:11:09. > :11:13.to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to
:11:14. > :11:15.Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with
:11:16. > :11:38.the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole
:11:39. > :11:42.place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what
:11:43. > :11:45.you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them
:11:46. > :11:49.here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy
:11:50. > :11:53.Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the
:11:54. > :11:58.turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the
:11:59. > :12:10.electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare
:12:11. > :12:16.Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night,
:12:17. > :12:21.and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together
:12:22. > :12:27.campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in
:12:28. > :12:30.100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you
:12:31. > :12:40.think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around
:12:41. > :12:44.five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's
:12:45. > :12:48.biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for
:12:49. > :12:54.areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have
:12:55. > :12:57.you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many
:12:58. > :13:01.copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes
:13:02. > :13:06.campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one
:13:07. > :13:11.of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say,
:13:12. > :13:16.has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC
:13:17. > :13:22.has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the
:13:23. > :13:25.no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the
:13:26. > :13:33.numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in
:13:34. > :13:37.this referendum on independence. The result, in Fife, has taken the no
:13:38. > :13:42.campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum
:13:43. > :13:48.is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has
:13:49. > :13:52.said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of
:13:53. > :13:55.the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more
:13:56. > :13:59.devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.
:14:00. > :14:03.Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish
:14:04. > :14:07.Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,
:14:08. > :14:11.as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on
:14:12. > :14:17.these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same
:14:18. > :14:23.pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we
:14:24. > :14:29.might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?
:14:30. > :14:37.Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not
:14:38. > :14:40.next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex
:14:41. > :14:47.Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my
:14:48. > :14:54.time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,
:14:55. > :14:58.and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the
:14:59. > :15:03.Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.
:15:04. > :15:10.Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows
:15:11. > :15:14.no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in
:15:15. > :15:20.Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to
:15:21. > :15:23.resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it,
:15:24. > :15:29.Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we
:15:30. > :15:33.were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I
:15:34. > :15:39.considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch
:15:40. > :15:48.time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not
:15:49. > :15:54.really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have
:15:55. > :15:59.to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility
:16:00. > :16:04.and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need
:16:05. > :16:07.a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,
:16:08. > :16:12.you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future
:16:13. > :16:16.political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP
:16:17. > :16:20.and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they
:16:21. > :16:25.would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the
:16:26. > :16:31.campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were
:16:32. > :16:37.going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the
:16:38. > :16:42.campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought
:16:43. > :16:47.we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the
:16:48. > :16:50.fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at
:16:51. > :16:55.Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real
:16:56. > :16:59.thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of
:17:00. > :17:04.people that had been moving across to independence saw within that, a
:17:05. > :17:08.reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the
:17:09. > :17:14.perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only
:17:15. > :17:21.five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city.
:17:22. > :17:26.There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an
:17:27. > :17:32.enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,
:17:33. > :17:36.though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In
:17:37. > :17:40.Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is
:17:41. > :17:45.what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,
:17:46. > :17:51.leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong
:17:52. > :17:55.and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do
:17:56. > :18:00.a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been
:18:01. > :18:05.leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give
:18:06. > :18:09.somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that
:18:10. > :18:15.well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the
:18:16. > :18:20.national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,
:18:21. > :18:23.the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the
:18:24. > :18:27.referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the
:18:28. > :18:34.political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met
:18:35. > :18:37.just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that
:18:38. > :18:44.there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.
:18:45. > :18:48.Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any
:18:49. > :18:54.campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer
:18:55. > :18:58.not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be
:18:59. > :19:03.called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I
:19:04. > :19:07.will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,
:19:08. > :19:11.broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political
:19:12. > :19:15.campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an
:19:16. > :19:19.energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.
:19:20. > :19:24.It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which
:19:25. > :19:31.carried the Yes Campaign so far, almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch
:19:32. > :19:41.put his Scottish Sun behind you, would have that made the difference?
:19:42. > :19:47.If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not
:19:48. > :19:53.say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure
:19:54. > :19:59.about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other
:20:00. > :20:02.papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish
:20:03. > :20:07.independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced
:20:08. > :20:16.and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers, I
:20:17. > :20:19.would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We
:20:20. > :20:24.certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I
:20:25. > :20:29.think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have
:20:30. > :20:41.liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if
:20:42. > :20:45.you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he
:20:46. > :20:50.defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has
:20:51. > :20:55.always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that
:20:56. > :20:59.can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union, for
:21:00. > :21:03.example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would
:21:04. > :21:08.argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they
:21:09. > :21:12.are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are
:21:13. > :21:17.doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You
:21:18. > :21:22.don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to
:21:23. > :21:24.their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing
:21:25. > :21:30.on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change
:21:31. > :21:34.in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in
:21:35. > :21:38.carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from
:21:39. > :21:41.UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England
:21:42. > :21:46.which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English
:21:47. > :21:50.matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable
:21:51. > :21:56.object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads.
:21:57. > :21:58.The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the
:21:59. > :22:04.last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now
:22:05. > :22:09.engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded
:22:10. > :22:15.to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that
:22:16. > :22:19.are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching
:22:20. > :22:25.this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the
:22:26. > :22:32.opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the
:22:33. > :22:39.back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for
:22:40. > :22:47.the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from
:22:48. > :22:53.their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I
:22:54. > :22:56.think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There
:22:57. > :23:01.have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25%
:23:02. > :23:07.increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than
:23:08. > :23:17.that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the
:23:18. > :23:21.opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from
:23:22. > :23:28.politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday,
:23:29. > :23:34.coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee,
:23:35. > :23:38.which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line
:23:39. > :23:42.of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song,
:23:43. > :23:50.rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in
:23:51. > :23:58.the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me.
:23:59. > :24:01.So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see
:24:02. > :24:08.you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you?
:24:09. > :24:13.Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of
:24:14. > :24:17.Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to
:24:18. > :24:21.serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I
:24:22. > :24:25.have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a
:24:26. > :24:32.chore. I'm not saying they didn't do it properly, I am sure they did. But
:24:33. > :24:35.I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of
:24:36. > :24:38.Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good
:24:39. > :24:41.observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with
:24:42. > :24:53.being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it
:24:54. > :25:02.will never be Lord Salmond? Yes! Thanks for joining us. Great
:25:03. > :25:06.pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over, the
:25:07. > :25:10.next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven
:25:11. > :25:17.months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what
:25:18. > :25:22.are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for
:25:23. > :25:23.the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an
:25:24. > :25:29.exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.
:25:30. > :25:33.Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public
:25:34. > :25:36.spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them
:25:37. > :25:42.want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.
:25:43. > :25:46.18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the
:25:47. > :25:51.number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to
:25:52. > :25:55.immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with
:25:56. > :25:59.trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too
:26:00. > :26:05.close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the
:26:06. > :26:10.nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the
:26:11. > :26:17.railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their
:26:18. > :26:23.preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for
:26:24. > :26:30.the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many
:26:31. > :26:33.left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of
:26:34. > :26:37.candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in
:26:38. > :26:40.terms of what is left and right. I think they see it in terms of what
:26:41. > :26:45.is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking
:26:46. > :26:48.about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the
:26:49. > :26:52.last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working
:26:53. > :26:55.very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are
:26:56. > :27:00.talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they
:27:01. > :27:03.want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to
:27:04. > :27:06.re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much
:27:07. > :27:10.immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions
:27:11. > :27:14.clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your
:27:15. > :27:19.characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of
:27:20. > :27:22.tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central
:27:23. > :27:29.position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority
:27:30. > :27:33.of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about
:27:34. > :27:38.immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out,
:27:39. > :27:41.yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people
:27:42. > :27:45.putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if
:27:46. > :27:48.you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of
:27:49. > :27:52.benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those
:27:53. > :27:59.positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are
:28:00. > :28:04.saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left
:28:05. > :28:09.wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those
:28:10. > :28:13.positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the
:28:14. > :28:17.majority of your viewers. I don't think your viewers think the idea of
:28:18. > :28:20.the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are
:28:21. > :28:26.going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to
:28:27. > :28:31.scrap Trident, not party policy? It isn't.
:28:32. > :28:37.I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at
:28:38. > :28:43.the time of the next general election, not including current MPs.
:28:44. > :28:49.This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the
:28:50. > :28:53.survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are
:28:54. > :28:56.basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our
:28:57. > :29:00.Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at
:29:01. > :29:05.their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's
:29:06. > :29:13.fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people
:29:14. > :29:16.see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a
:29:17. > :29:22.Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges.
:29:23. > :29:25.We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations
:29:26. > :29:28.in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many
:29:29. > :29:33.people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do
:29:34. > :29:36.not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about
:29:37. > :29:39.the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the
:29:40. > :29:43.future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I
:29:44. > :29:54.don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in
:29:55. > :29:56.terms of who runs the next government. That one of your
:29:57. > :29:58.candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the
:29:59. > :30:03.unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have
:30:04. > :30:09.spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any
:30:10. > :30:12.different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people
:30:13. > :30:15.working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of
:30:16. > :30:19.journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been
:30:20. > :30:24.brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should
:30:25. > :30:28.be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?
:30:29. > :30:32.I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you
:30:33. > :30:37.look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM
:30:38. > :30:41.Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership
:30:42. > :30:46.with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.
:30:47. > :30:50.I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be
:30:51. > :30:58.closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our
:30:59. > :31:02.relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do
:31:03. > :31:05.you need a constitutional conversation where you have to
:31:06. > :31:08.discuss whether English people voting on English matters is
:31:09. > :31:11.unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,
:31:12. > :31:19.but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the
:31:20. > :31:25.Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of
:31:26. > :31:29.the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't
:31:30. > :31:32.want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity
:31:33. > :31:37.where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK
:31:38. > :31:41.Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it
:31:42. > :31:46.is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes
:31:47. > :31:52.out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see
:31:53. > :31:55.it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been
:31:56. > :31:58.around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making
:31:59. > :32:03.a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not
:32:04. > :32:10.just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can
:32:11. > :32:14.vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport
:32:15. > :32:17.is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of
:32:18. > :32:21.competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to
:32:22. > :32:25.them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different
:32:26. > :32:28.MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is
:32:29. > :32:32.happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people
:32:33. > :32:36.politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities
:32:37. > :32:41.and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in
:32:42. > :32:45.Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in
:32:46. > :32:50.bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed
:32:51. > :32:54.before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.
:32:55. > :32:57.That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to
:32:58. > :33:01.devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being
:33:02. > :33:06.decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax
:33:07. > :33:10.powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper
:33:11. > :33:16.being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put
:33:17. > :33:19.forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you
:33:20. > :33:21.haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I
:33:22. > :34:31.can't Per capita spending in Scotland is
:34:32. > :34:34.way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, yet per capita incomes in
:34:35. > :34:40.Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why is that fair for a Labour
:34:41. > :34:44.politician? We have said is we want to have more equitable distribution.
:34:45. > :34:47.You said you were retrying the Barnett Formula. The other McKerr
:34:48. > :34:54.I'm not sure necessarily punching Scotland is the way to go. I have
:34:55. > :34:56.two say, what message do this -- does this send to the Scottish
:34:57. > :35:00.people? I am absolutely delighted with the result we have got, the
:35:01. > :35:04.Unity, the solidarity we are maintaining across the nations of
:35:05. > :35:07.the UK, and I think all of this kind of separatist talk, setting up
:35:08. > :35:10.different nations of the UK against each other, goes completely against
:35:11. > :35:15.what we have all been campaigning for over the last two years. We
:35:16. > :35:19.shouldn't have any truck with it. Will come onto the announcement on
:35:20. > :35:24.the minimum wage. You will increase it by ?1 50, to take it to ?8. That
:35:25. > :35:28.would be over five years. Over five years, that is all you are going to
:35:29. > :35:35.do, and have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back
:35:36. > :35:42.in taxation and fewer benefits? Work is being done on it. So how much? I
:35:43. > :35:45.can give you an exact figure. The policy absolutely pays for itself,
:35:46. > :35:49.and the way we have looked at this, we have looked at the government's
:35:50. > :35:52.own figures, because of people are earning more, they therefore would
:35:53. > :35:56.be paying more in income tax, they will be receiving less in benefit,
:35:57. > :35:59.we will have to pay out less in tax credit. So we are absolutely
:36:00. > :36:02.confident that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking you about the
:36:03. > :36:10.payment, but what it means for low paid workers. They are going to get
:36:11. > :36:13.an extra 30p an hour. How much of the 30p did I get to keep? I'll tell
:36:14. > :36:18.you what it means. In terms of what they actually get in the first
:36:19. > :36:21.instance, somebody on the minimum wage now with our proposal will be
:36:22. > :36:24.getting in the region of ?3000 more per year than they are at the
:36:25. > :36:28.moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they get to
:36:29. > :36:32.keep? We are confident we the modelling on this, and I can give
:36:33. > :36:36.you an exact figure. If you have done the modelling, why can you give
:36:37. > :36:40.me a figure? We are talking about some of the lowest paid people in
:36:41. > :36:44.the country. We are confident they would be better off. I would suggest
:36:45. > :36:49.that with this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50,
:36:50. > :36:53.60, or 65%. They would not keep most of this increase you are talking
:36:54. > :36:58.about. I don't accent your figures, and we are confident that... I don't
:36:59. > :37:02.have any in my head which I can give you right now! Do you think up
:37:03. > :37:08.policies before you announce them? Of course we think of that would up
:37:09. > :37:11.policies before we announce them. We think people will be better off with
:37:12. > :37:15.the change we are proposing, and we are also seeking to incentivise
:37:16. > :37:19.employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I
:37:20. > :37:23.said, the economy is recovering, great. But we know at the moment, it
:37:24. > :37:26.is still delivering for a huge number of your viewers, and we are
:37:27. > :37:29.determined to do something about that. The status quo isn't enough an
:37:30. > :37:36.option. Thank you for joining us. Twice in three days! You can have
:37:37. > :37:42.too much of a good thing! I am mad! He said that not me. It has just
:37:43. > :37:45.gone 11:35 a.m.. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, but not for
:37:46. > :37:50.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:37:51. > :37:55.After Scotland votes decisively to remain within the UK, the
:37:56. > :38:02.First Minister seems to suggest the public were tricked into voting No.
:38:03. > :38:09.I am actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments. I
:38:10. > :38:12.am only surprised by the speed at which they are doing it. They seem
:38:13. > :38:13.to be totally shameless in these matters.
:38:14. > :38:16.All three parties pledge themselves to further devolution, but will they
:38:17. > :38:23.Scotland's political firmament was shaken on Friday.
:38:24. > :38:25.An unforgettable week in which a majority of
:38:26. > :38:30.It lead to the departure of one of the most outstanding politicians
:38:31. > :38:35.With Alex Salmond gone, Scotland and the rest of the UK now
:38:36. > :38:40.But the referendum result leaves large question marks hanging over
:38:41. > :38:44.the future leadership and direction of the Scottish National Party,
:38:45. > :39:01.Bute house, the First Minister's official residence. On Friday, the
:39:02. > :39:04.setting for a surprise statement. After the people of Scotland had
:39:05. > :39:08.made their views clear on independence, the First Minister
:39:09. > :39:12.ended speculation about his future. I believe that this is a new,
:39:13. > :39:21.exciting situation that is redolent with possibility. But in that
:39:22. > :39:24.situation, I think that the party, Parliament and country would benefit
:39:25. > :39:28.from new leadership. Therefore, I have told the national secretary of
:39:29. > :39:33.the SNP that I shall not accept nomination leader at the annual
:39:34. > :39:36.conference in Perth on the 13th to 15th of November. In poetic
:39:37. > :39:42.language, the fight was clearly not.
:39:43. > :39:47.For me as leader, my time is nearly over, but for Scotland, the campaign
:39:48. > :39:55.continues, and the dream shall never die.
:39:56. > :39:59.But with that charismatic, electorally successful leader Don,
:40:00. > :40:03.who can now succeed him? Well, Nicola Sturgeon is the obvious
:40:04. > :40:08.answer. Likely to be crowned with no contest. The external affairs
:40:09. > :40:13.Minister has tweeted his support. He is in the frame for the deputy's
:40:14. > :40:17.post, and he is politically close to Ms Sturgeon. Derek Mackay, the local
:40:18. > :40:21.government minister, might want to challenge him, and Alex Neill will
:40:22. > :40:26.be closely watched. He stood for the leadership in 2000. So, how does the
:40:27. > :40:30.party move on? Squabble with Westminster over more powers, or
:40:31. > :40:35.offer some more radical approach, claiming the power of the 45% behind
:40:36. > :40:40.you? A Yes vote would have been an impressive win for the master of
:40:41. > :40:41.Bute house, but the new First Minister will have to settle for
:40:42. > :40:48.less, at least at the moment. Well, a little while ago I spoke to
:40:49. > :40:51.the Finance Secretary, John Swinney, I asked him
:40:52. > :40:56.whether it was wise that the First Minister has been quoted this
:40:57. > :41:11.morning saying that the Scottish I think it pretty accurately sums up
:41:12. > :41:18.what has been going on over the last three days. It is a very solemn
:41:19. > :41:20.commitment that was given by the UK political parties during the
:41:21. > :41:24.referendum, and they were decisive, in my opinion, because I met many
:41:25. > :41:29.people who are contemplating voting Yes, but decided to vote No because
:41:30. > :41:33.they thought they would get more powers, and so it had an affect on
:41:34. > :41:36.the outcome in my opinion, very strongly. And we now find ourselves
:41:37. > :41:41.looking at all sorts of comments that have been made by the Prime
:41:42. > :41:45.Minister, by various figures within the Labour and Conservative parties
:41:46. > :41:49.that suggest there is more than a little backsliding going on.
:41:50. > :41:53.I am sure you did meet people who changed their mind, but there will
:41:54. > :42:00.be very many people watching this programme who voted No, and might
:42:01. > :42:04.want to say to you, look, we weren't misled or gold or conned in some
:42:05. > :42:09.way. We have had a two-year debate. We have had a 500 odd page white
:42:10. > :42:13.paper from the Scottish Government, telling us your prospectus for
:42:14. > :42:19.independence, and we decided we did not want it. The danger for you is,
:42:20. > :42:22.you might start looking as if you are doing another variant of saying
:42:23. > :42:29.to people in Scotland, you were too stupid and to scared to vote yes. No
:42:30. > :42:32.not in the slightest. I don't know how many interviews I have done
:42:33. > :42:35.since Thursday night on Friday morning, and I have accepted
:42:36. > :42:41.unreservedly that we did not win the referendum on Thursday. I think we
:42:42. > :42:45.did fantastically well, we got 45% of the public to vote for
:42:46. > :42:53.independence, 1.6 million people, and at -- the only point I'm making
:42:54. > :42:56.to you is that some people were going to vote for independence but
:42:57. > :43:01.decided that the opposite is more powers given by the three UK leaders
:43:02. > :43:04.were more a more attractive proposition, and voted No as a
:43:05. > :43:07.consequence, and therefore they are entitled to be taken seriously by
:43:08. > :43:11.those three UK leaders and have what they voted for delivered, and that
:43:12. > :43:13.is what we will hold them to account for.
:43:14. > :43:16.Would you agree that whatever happens in the next few weeks, the
:43:17. > :43:24.Scottish National Party needs to have a long think about what kind of
:43:25. > :43:28.party it wants to be? For the last ten, 15 or 20 years, every time
:43:29. > :43:33.there is debate on any subject in Scotland, the SNP says, yes, but of
:43:34. > :43:37.course, if we had independence, we would do X, Y and Z. That is not an
:43:38. > :43:42.option that is available any more, so what does the SNP become? Do you
:43:43. > :43:47.become a gradualist party, sort of like Plaid Cymru? Is that the idea?
:43:48. > :43:50.I wouldn't accept your characterisation of the SNP, because
:43:51. > :43:55.we have been in government for seven and a half years, and have delivered
:43:56. > :44:00.a whole range of different policy commitments to tackle inequality, to
:44:01. > :44:05.create jobs in Scotland, to create better prospects for individuals, to
:44:06. > :44:08.deliver free education... I'm not denying that, just saying that the
:44:09. > :44:12.SNP has to be fundamentally different now, doesn't it?
:44:13. > :44:17.I did think so, because what we have done is actually rolled our sleeves
:44:18. > :44:19.up, worked very hard as a government to tackle issues that matter to the
:44:20. > :44:27.people of Scotland in their everyday lives, and we will return -- we were
:44:28. > :44:31.returned in 2011 and decisively to continue their job.
:44:32. > :44:36.Yes, but the one absolutely distinctive policy of the SNP is now
:44:37. > :44:40.off the agenda for a generation, so surely, you have do start to rethink
:44:41. > :44:44.what kind of party you wants to be? Well, there are undoubtedly will be
:44:45. > :44:47.a tactical debate within the Scottish National Party about how we
:44:48. > :44:52.advance our agenda, but my answer to your question is that there is no
:44:53. > :44:55.way the SNP will ever be a party that does not believe in and support
:44:56. > :45:00.and argue for Scottish independence. You will never change my mind on
:45:01. > :45:03.that. That is my deeply held view. But the problem is you can't do it
:45:04. > :45:07.on a day-to-day basis as you have been doing, because people will be
:45:08. > :45:10.fed up with it. People will turn round and say, we are fed up to our
:45:11. > :45:18.back teeth with this stuff. We just had a vote on independence and we
:45:19. > :45:20.rejected it. Please can we talk about something else give macro that
:45:21. > :45:21.is why I completely reject your characterisation of what we are
:45:22. > :45:24.about. Let's take welfare, for example. The
:45:25. > :45:30.UK Government is changing welfare arrangements in the UK, and I could
:45:31. > :45:33.say in all of that, OK, that is a UK responsibility, I can't do anything
:45:34. > :45:38.about it until we get independence. But that is not what we are saying.
:45:39. > :45:41.We have put ?23 million into tackling the issues of welfare
:45:42. > :45:48.reform as they attacked council tax benefit, money to tackle the bedroom
:45:49. > :45:50.tax, and so on. We're not sitting and twiddling our thumbs and waiting
:45:51. > :45:54.for independence, but tackling issues that matter to people in
:45:55. > :45:56.Scotland. That is why I reject your characterisation of the SNP in that
:45:57. > :46:02.fashion. Nicola Sturgeon - next leader?
:46:03. > :46:06.Well, I certainly hope so. I am encouraging her to do so, and I will
:46:07. > :46:12.be an enthusiastic and energetic supporter of Nicola's. I look
:46:13. > :46:18.forward to her taking a campaign through the party to become our next
:46:19. > :46:20.leader, and then to be nominated to be First Minister. Nothing will give
:46:21. > :46:25.me more satisfaction than to see under the glass ceiling in Scotland
:46:26. > :46:28.shattered when Nicola Sturgeon, as I hope she will be, successfully is
:46:29. > :46:30.elected as First Minister in Scotland.
:46:31. > :46:34.Did you consider may be going in for it, or did you decide you weren't
:46:35. > :46:37.really a glutton for punishment to that extent?
:46:38. > :46:40.Several weeks ago, I was asked the question by a journalist in
:46:41. > :46:44.Scotland, and he very fairly reported my reaction, saying, Mr
:46:45. > :46:47.Swinney did not quite close the door, he slammed it shut and then
:46:48. > :46:51.nailed it shot for absolute security and definition that it would not
:46:52. > :46:54.happen. There is no way I would contemplate going back into the
:46:55. > :46:59.party leadership. I had my chance, and enjoyed it. I would not be going
:47:00. > :47:02.back in there, and I will be a totally enthusiastic supporter.
:47:03. > :47:07.If I were Nicola Sturgeon watching this, I would think, given what he
:47:08. > :47:09.has just said, I'm not sure I want to do this?
:47:10. > :47:13.I'm quite sure she knows where she would be letting herself in for, but
:47:14. > :47:17.she will have many many people giving her enthusiastic support to
:47:18. > :47:19.take forward what I am certain will be excellent leadership.
:47:20. > :47:21.John Swinney, we will have to leave it there. Thank you very much. Thank
:47:22. > :47:23.you. In a statement early on Friday
:47:24. > :47:26.morning, the Prime Minister said he was "delighted" at the outcome
:47:27. > :47:28.of the referendum, but acknowledged that a significant number of Scots
:47:29. > :47:30.had expressed dissatisfaction with Mr Cameron said he was committed to
:47:31. > :47:34.delivering additional devolution, not just to Scotland
:47:35. > :47:36.but to the rest of the UK. Well, to talk about how difficult
:47:37. > :47:39.that task will be, I'm joined now by our Westminster
:47:40. > :47:56.correspondent David Porter, who's David, you get about a bit, don't
:47:57. > :48:01.you? Is this reconcilable? We have had Alistair Darling this morning
:48:02. > :48:03.and Ed Miliband this morning saying, look, devolution for England and
:48:04. > :48:11.devolution for Scotland are separate issues. We have pledged to the
:48:12. > :48:14.people of Scotland that we will do it, and be in Sirius trouble if we
:48:15. > :48:19.don't. Yet we have David Cameron saying, we can't do devolution for
:48:20. > :48:23.Scotland unless we addressing this matters. How do you reconcile that?
:48:24. > :48:28.It will be a tough one and a very thorny question to solve. If they
:48:29. > :48:31.are going to get some kind of deal on this, they will have to be a
:48:32. > :48:35.compromise. David Cameron has said he wants more devolution to
:48:36. > :48:38.Scotland, but it has to be linked with the English question. Ed
:48:39. > :48:40.Miliband says he wants more devolution for Scotland, but it
:48:41. > :48:45.should not be linked with the English question. That needs a
:48:46. > :48:49.constitutional convention. I think what we're now seeing is, following
:48:50. > :48:53.the event on Thursday night, the speeches on Friday morning, and a
:48:54. > :48:55.huge sigh of relief from the Unionist parties that Scotland did
:48:56. > :49:01.not decide to vote for independence, they are now wrestling with some
:49:02. > :49:04.very difficult problems, not just be constitutional once, but also
:49:05. > :49:08.internal party management problems. Add to that that we are in the
:49:09. > :49:13.run-up to a general election, and it just proves how difficult this whole
:49:14. > :49:17.question of UK wide constitutional reform is going to be. They will not
:49:18. > :49:19.be quick or easy. Thank you very much for that.
:49:20. > :49:21.Over recent days, the former Prime Minister Gordon
:49:22. > :49:24.Brown has been a key figure in trying to convince the public that
:49:25. > :49:27.In a speech in his constituency yesterday, Mr Brown said that
:49:28. > :49:30.processes were already under way at parliament and in
:49:31. > :49:33.the civil service to bring forward legislation by the end of January.
:49:34. > :49:41.A little earlier I spoke to Douglas Alexander, shadow Foreign Secretary,
:49:42. > :49:46.And to ensure that there is proper scrutiny by the rest of the world,
:49:47. > :49:50.so everybody knows that this deadline will be adhered to. I have
:49:51. > :49:55.called on the commission of the Speaker of the House of Commons,
:49:56. > :49:59.which will take place on the first week back in Westminster, on
:50:00. > :50:03.Thursday, October 16, and in the debate, I will want to ensure that
:50:04. > :50:06.the instructions to deliver have become a plan to deliver and not
:50:07. > :50:13.just a timetable to deliver, but a certainty that we will deliver.
:50:14. > :50:16.A short while ago I spoke to the Shadow Foreign Secretary,
:50:17. > :50:20.Douglas Alexander, who was in our Edinburgh studio.
:50:21. > :50:22.I put it to him that every area that voted yes in the referendum was
:50:23. > :50:24.a traditional heartland of Scottish Labour - and asked him whether that
:50:25. > :50:33.meant his party was in crisis here. I would not accept that. People
:50:34. > :50:38.moved and shifted from past party allegiances during this result. That
:50:39. > :50:46.is why areas like Murray and the Western Isles and Perth and Kinross
:50:47. > :50:55.recorded significant nor majorities. But if you are asking me if we have
:50:56. > :51:01.work to do to offer at the Scottish people then absolutely. We spent two
:51:02. > :51:07.years towards making this decision. The challenge for all of us is to
:51:08. > :51:12.challenge the same kind of energy that was unleashed by this campaign
:51:13. > :51:19.to tackle poverty and building up our services. There will be plenty
:51:20. > :51:25.of opportunities for post match analysis but it is clear Scottish
:51:26. > :51:33.Labour was central to a campaign which recorded a decisive ten point
:51:34. > :51:37.difference between the two parties like a significant turnout of 85%
:51:38. > :51:48.and the resignation of the First Minister. From the Labour point of
:51:49. > :51:54.view every area that voted yes is a traditional Labour heartland. Labour
:51:55. > :51:59.has been incapable of developing a narrative to do with equality,
:52:00. > :52:04.poverty and deprivation which breaks away from the terms on which it is
:52:05. > :52:09.claimed by the Scottish Nationalists. You have not convinced
:52:10. > :52:15.you're on people that the Nationalist way of looking at this
:52:16. > :52:24.is wrong. Offered the offered the 640 page white paper which had one
:52:25. > :52:34.policy for redistribution. This is approximately true but why did the
:52:35. > :52:39.vote yes in some parts? You are not letting me and the question. Whether
:52:40. > :52:43.it is the fact they have put money to the richest, whether the fact
:52:44. > :52:51.they have taken money out while in office, they are resisting the top
:52:52. > :52:55.rate of 50p and an increase for the big energy companies. There will
:52:56. > :53:00.continue to be big differences between the SNP and Labour, I
:53:01. > :53:06.welcome that contest. There was a prior question which had to be
:53:07. > :53:11.resolved, are we in or out of the UK, that has now been decisively
:53:12. > :53:19.spoken for by the people of Scotland. That is to stay within the
:53:20. > :53:23.UK. If what you have just said has any credibility, why have all been
:53:24. > :53:31.traditional heartlands of Labour support in Scotland trooped into the
:53:32. > :53:38.polling booths to vote yes to the prospectus route across by the SNP?
:53:39. > :53:44.I represent the community of Renfrewshire where we recorded a
:53:45. > :53:49.clear mandate for Scotland staying within the United Kingdom, as we did
:53:50. > :53:55.in Hall sweeps of the country which you are not talking about today.
:53:56. > :54:01.Fife for example, a decisive majority in favour of staying within
:54:02. > :54:06.the UK. It was the final vote which delivered Scotland's place in the
:54:07. > :54:09.UK. Of course I accept the dark challenges which Scotland faces
:54:10. > :54:16.along with old people" partly responding to this. The fact is that
:54:17. > :54:26.2 million Scots on Thursday made clear our view that the way to
:54:27. > :54:34.advance is to stay within the UK. Do you think he meant an organisation
:54:35. > :54:39.should be set up or what? For the last two years we have had the most
:54:40. > :54:45.extraordinary civic engagement but it has not created a single job or
:54:46. > :54:51.lifted a single child out of poverty. If we were to challenge the
:54:52. > :54:55.same energy that was boot into the constitutional question I think we
:54:56. > :55:01.could serve Scotland more effectively. To build the community
:55:02. > :55:08.you get people a common task. By doing what? To improve the will and
:55:09. > :55:15.well-being of the people of Scotland. You are talking about
:55:16. > :55:21.setting up an organisation? If the focus can shift from trying to end
:55:22. > :55:24.Britain to trying to end poverty. There has to be a reappraisal from
:55:25. > :55:30.the people on the other side of the argument who argued for many years
:55:31. > :55:36.that Scotland actually wanted independence. They must now
:55:37. > :55:41.reconcile the fact that we want demolition to work. It is by doing
:55:42. > :55:49.that we can empower communities and tackle poverty. If I was the SNP I
:55:50. > :55:56.would say this sounds very grand but what you are asking us to do is join
:55:57. > :56:00.with you in diffusing nationalism on your traditional support in areas
:56:01. > :56:07.like Glasgow while these are in fact the new people supporting us so,
:56:08. > :56:12.thank you, but no. We have seen the settled will of the SNP for decades
:56:13. > :56:15.long wanting a separate sovereign state being defeated by the
:56:16. > :56:23.sovereign will of the Scottish people. A clear mandate for Scotland
:56:24. > :56:27.to stay within the UK. I accept that there is a painful and difficult
:56:28. > :56:32.reckoning but the truth is we can now build a common cause with in
:56:33. > :56:38.Scotland as to what we are trying to do. To move our nation forward with
:56:39. > :56:46.a process of democratic reform but also social and economic reform as
:56:47. > :56:50.well. Given that there were points about tackling unemployment and
:56:51. > :56:54.improving the health service I think we can now come together and try to
:56:55. > :57:00.make those improvements happen. You are about to be going to church to
:57:01. > :57:05.be reconciled with John Swinney. Thank you very much. Thank you.
:57:06. > :57:08.Our guests today are David Clegg, who's Political Editor at the
:57:09. > :57:09.Daily Record, and the journalist and economic
:57:10. > :57:20.commentator, George Kerevan. Is that for old times sake that you
:57:21. > :57:24.have the badge on? I met yes campaigners who had taken the
:57:25. > :57:29.posters down on Friday and started putting them back up on Saturday.
:57:30. > :57:34.Because actually we won. We are getting home rule that we have
:57:35. > :57:39.argued for for 100 years. That means we can do all the things we want in
:57:40. > :57:45.terms of social justice. It looks also like England will get home
:57:46. > :57:49.rule. If we look at Scotland going towards social democracy which is
:57:50. > :57:55.what we all want and if England goes the way it once which is more
:57:56. > :58:01.towards Nigel Farage, tell me be will be together in ten years, I do
:58:02. > :58:04.not think so. Would you mind after the programme fawning the SNP and
:58:05. > :58:16.telling them what you have said because that does not appear to be
:58:17. > :58:20.there idea. Now, the promises made by the Westminster leaders are going
:58:21. > :58:26.to have to be delivered or else there will be anger. The SNP are
:58:27. > :58:31.right when they say the anger will spill over to people who voted in
:58:32. > :58:37.the referendum. The best guarantor of these powers is the prospect of
:58:38. > :58:43.another referendum which all the Unionist parties will be determined
:58:44. > :58:47.to avoid. It was very conclusive, the turnout was fantastically high
:58:48. > :58:51.and the result was clear. Independence is not something the
:58:52. > :58:58.Scottish public want but they do want more powers in Edinburgh. Alex
:58:59. > :59:04.Salmond, one of the major figures in Scottish politics, he has earned the
:59:05. > :59:08.right to decide when he weaves as first minister but I wonder if it
:59:09. > :59:18.was in the interests of the SNP to design on Friday. Cause they want to
:59:19. > :59:30.frame things as they got 40 5%. As soon as he stepped down it became
:59:31. > :59:35.the Nationalists lost. The thing I got excited about when I read the
:59:36. > :59:45.Daily Mail quote about the 2016 Holyrood election saying the SNP was
:59:46. > :59:49.on course to win a third victory. To secure that electoral victory we
:59:50. > :59:54.needed to change the readership. I am looking forward to having all
:59:55. > :00:01.three political parties in Scotland led by women and I think that will
:00:02. > :00:09.lead to the SNP strength. Alec has been around for 23 years more or
:00:10. > :00:15.less. What you think of the timing of this? I thought he would leave in
:00:16. > :00:22.November at the party conference, I thought he might take a week or two.
:00:23. > :00:26.One of the reasons is that there are a lot of disappointed independence
:00:27. > :00:32.supporters at the time and it sort of keep it up on the sorrow that the
:00:33. > :00:40.First Minister was leaving. I Cannes and this morning there is chat among
:00:41. > :00:49.SNP members for their quest urgent, Colin Fox and Patrick Hardy sweeping
:00:50. > :00:51.the general election next May. I think that is far-fetched. There is
:00:52. > :00:58.no doubt the Labour Party will have some problems in the West of
:00:59. > :01:05.Scotland are been areas. Clearly was the largest yet bought coalesces
:01:06. > :01:09.almost exactly with weird labour has previously been strongest. They will
:01:10. > :01:18.need to address that. One way is to get the powers sorted out in the
:01:19. > :01:22.long-term. Douglas Alexander was arguing with me in which areas did
:01:23. > :01:29.what but it does not go away, does it? The precedence is set for an
:01:30. > :01:35.all-party alliance in Canada. In Canada they realised the
:01:36. > :01:41.difficulties of getting the mass of the population to vote for the
:01:42. > :01:46.national election, the National party. I find that in Scotland in
:01:47. > :01:56.2010 when I stood as an SNP candidate. If we could follow the
:01:57. > :02:00.cubic example and create a block of pro-democracy and pro-independence
:02:01. > :02:05.parties in Scotland, that might solve the problem. It proves the
:02:06. > :02:10.debate is moving forward, the momentum and impetus is still with
:02:11. > :02:15.the yes side. I'd much wrote do not go away. They will be with you to
:02:16. > :02:22.any couple of minutes. Let's cross for the news now with Andrew Kerr.
:02:23. > :02:26.Good afternoon. As the fall-out from the referendum
:02:27. > :02:30.continues, the First Minister says the three pro-union parties tricked
:02:31. > :02:35.voters into opting for "no".Alex Salmond claimed they were reneging
:02:36. > :02:38.on the pledge they made on new powers in the days before the poll.
:02:39. > :02:40.He said No voters would feel "misled and tricked".
:02:41. > :02:43.On the Andrew Marr Show, the Labour leader Ed Miliband said
:02:44. > :02:44.the extra powers which he pledged, along with David Cameron and
:02:45. > :02:53.Nick Clegg, will go ahead. A service of reconciliation
:02:54. > :02:56.following the referendum is being Moderator of the Church of Scotland
:02:57. > :02:59.is leading worship. He's expected to ask Scots to put
:03:00. > :03:02.their differences aside and work together to redefine
:03:03. > :03:04.the country's place within the UK. Party representatives will light
:03:05. > :03:11.a candle, symbolising commitment. Now let's take a look
:03:12. > :03:21.at the weather with Gillian. If in. A lovely afternoon across
:03:22. > :03:26.most of the country, as high-pressure establishes itself
:03:27. > :03:29.across the UK. Crisp sunshine, the best of it across central and
:03:30. > :03:34.western Scotland. More cloud across the North. For the Northern Isles,
:03:35. > :03:37.temperatures on the cool side, just 12 Celsius, but up to 17 or 18 in
:03:38. > :03:38.the best of the sunshine in the south-west.
:03:39. > :03:46.There's been much discussion over the last few days
:03:47. > :03:49.about the timetable for greater powers at the Scottish Parliament.
:03:50. > :03:51.There's continuing disagreement over the nature of further devolution
:03:52. > :03:53.and whether legislation will be in place by next year.
:03:54. > :03:56.But earlier today, Alistair Darling told the BBC the vow made
:03:57. > :04:09.The agreement reached by the three bodies, as far as I'm concerned, is
:04:10. > :04:13.non-negotiable. It was promised, it's got to be delivered, and anyone
:04:14. > :04:18.who welshes on that will pay a very heavy price for years to come. It is
:04:19. > :04:22.simply non-negotiable. I believe it will be delivered. The process is
:04:23. > :04:26.already underway. By the end of next January, you will have a bill ready
:04:27. > :04:30.to go and become an act of Parliament. Of course, there is a
:04:31. > :04:33.separate issue about what further constitutional change comes to the
:04:34. > :04:40.UK, but to be very clear about this, you cannot hold up or delay in any
:04:41. > :04:43.way at all what was promised. The three leaders gave an absolute
:04:44. > :04:44.commitment, and I am confident they will deliver on it.
:04:45. > :04:46.Joining us from Edinburgh, Professor Charlie Jeffery,
:04:47. > :04:48.director of a research programme on Devolution Constitutional Change,
:04:49. > :05:02.There is an emerging and rather fascinating clash of right against
:05:03. > :05:06.right here, isn't there? Labour are absolutely right to say, a vow was
:05:07. > :05:10.made and that has to be kept, irrespective of what happens in the
:05:11. > :05:13.broader issue of constitutional change for the rest of the UK. But
:05:14. > :05:18.on the other hand, the Conservatives are right to say, well, you can't
:05:19. > :05:22.expect the people of England to axe at a shed load more power is going
:05:23. > :05:25.to Scotland unless the West Lothian question is addressed?
:05:26. > :05:29.Indeed, Gordon. I think at the moment, we are in something like a
:05:30. > :05:33.constitutional change reaction, which was prompted by those polls
:05:34. > :05:37.before the referendum which pushed the No side into firming up this
:05:38. > :05:41.timetable for additional powers. That in itself prompted some
:05:42. > :05:46.discontent in England, especially on the Conservative backbenches, which
:05:47. > :05:50.made Prime Minister Cameron's announcement on English votes for
:05:51. > :05:54.English laws in the House of Commons something like a necessity to
:05:55. > :05:59.maintain the unity of the Conservative Party. Wales was also
:06:00. > :06:02.showing some discontent over that commitment on the Barnett Formula.
:06:03. > :06:07.Wales feels underfunded. So what we see now is a chain reaction, which I
:06:08. > :06:11.think is inherently unstable, and I think it is beginning to pit the
:06:12. > :06:13.nations of the UK against each other, but also to pit the parties
:06:14. > :06:19.against each other in different ways. That Better Together unity is
:06:20. > :06:24.gone, very, very quickly. Yes, but the problem is surely that
:06:25. > :06:27.if this just turns into a political squabble tween Labour and the
:06:28. > :06:33.Conservatives ahead of the next general election, there could be
:06:34. > :06:36.quite dire consequences here. Obviously, we can't have another
:06:37. > :06:41.referendum, but you have a lot of people genuinely feeling, hang on,
:06:42. > :06:45.we voted No, and we really have, as Alex Salmond suggested, been conned.
:06:46. > :06:48.Well, we just had Alistair Darling saying that the timetable is
:06:49. > :06:53.non-negotiable, and I believe him entirely in his commitment to that,
:06:54. > :07:01.but I do think there are tremendous challenges for delivering that
:07:02. > :07:05.timetable. There is a very, very small window for public consultation
:07:06. > :07:10.set out in that timetable. There is very little mention of the Scottish
:07:11. > :07:14.Parliament's own rights to begin salted on UK legislation, affecting
:07:15. > :07:18.the Scottish Parliament. We would expect the parliament to set up a
:07:19. > :07:21.committee to take evidence, to be due to report. There is absolutely
:07:22. > :07:25.nothing there. The technical details around welfare devolution are
:07:26. > :07:30.immense. Just ask Iain Duncan Smith about the difficulties in changing
:07:31. > :07:34.arrangements around welfare benefits. All of these things are
:07:35. > :07:39.really tremendous pressures on that non-negotiable timetable.
:07:40. > :07:44.Yes, and added to that long list of problems, the parties don't agree,
:07:45. > :07:47.do they? Even on the more powers for Scotland bit. It is actually the
:07:48. > :07:51.Tories who have got a radical devolution review, for example, on
:07:52. > :07:55.income tax, and Labour is proposing something much, much more modest,
:07:56. > :07:58.and they are going to do so is something them.
:07:59. > :08:02.What we have seen is precisely that. The Liberal Democrats and
:08:03. > :08:07.Conservatives have by some way the most ambitious proposals on tax
:08:08. > :08:11.devolution, and labour, by some way, have the least ambitious. And that
:08:12. > :08:14.is another dimensional of this constitutional challenge that we
:08:15. > :08:19.have at the moment, and that is that the Labour Party, in its Westminster
:08:20. > :08:25.and in its Holyrood incarnations, is this United. The Westminster level
:08:26. > :08:29.party is deeply sceptical about further tax devolution. The Holyrood
:08:30. > :08:34.party is not, and we will have to see which one wins out.
:08:35. > :08:40.Is there a danger -- dangerous complacency here? The leader of the
:08:41. > :08:44.Labour Party might be tempted to think, what is coming next? It is a
:08:45. > :08:48.general election. We always do well in general elections in Scotland,
:08:49. > :08:50.the SNP always do badly. So even if these problems you have just
:08:51. > :08:55.described are still there, we don't really need to worry that much?
:08:56. > :09:00.Well, that would probably be an ill-advised way of thinking about
:09:01. > :09:05.the matter. If there is slippage from this non-negotiable timetable,
:09:06. > :09:10.or if what emerges from it is a rather modest form of additional
:09:11. > :09:14.devolution, not that maximum home rule that was just talked about,
:09:15. > :09:18.then we suspect the Labour Party above all of the others will be the
:09:19. > :09:20.one that is punished at the UK general election in Scotland.
:09:21. > :09:22.Thank you very much. We're joined again by our guests,
:09:23. > :09:32.David Clegg and George Kerevan. Let's talk a little bit about what
:09:33. > :09:39.has been promised by Gordon Brown. A lot of people, particularly on the
:09:40. > :09:43.Yes side, are saying this morning, hang on, this guy is a Labour
:09:44. > :09:47.backbencher. Why is he suddenly Mr Scotland? What is he doing going
:09:48. > :09:52.around signing things with David Cameron? I think there is an element
:09:53. > :09:54.of truth in that, in that he doesn't have any power specifically to
:09:55. > :10:02.deliver any of these things, but what he has been doing is Carl
:10:03. > :10:07.Allingham become known as the Val now, after the front-page Reid had
:10:08. > :10:11.on the daily record, and Gordon Brown was instrumental in bringing
:10:12. > :10:16.together that platform. -- Vo. But it will be down to the parties to
:10:17. > :10:20.deliver it, is the central point. But deliver what? Let me make an
:10:21. > :10:23.analogy, if I could. When David Cameron said I am delivering more
:10:24. > :10:29.powers to Scotland, but of course, I want English votes for English MPs,
:10:30. > :10:33.Labour immediately thought, hang on, this is a trap. Even if we have a
:10:34. > :10:36.Labour government, we might not control what happens in England. If
:10:37. > :10:42.you look at what Gordon Brown said, he is effectively saying, I want a
:10:43. > :10:46.happy clap the coalition with the Scottish Government and the Scottish
:10:47. > :10:51.National Party in order to convince working-class people in the West of
:10:52. > :10:54.Scotland that they have nothing to do with nationalism.
:10:55. > :11:00.Yes, the biggest loser, I think history will show, on Thursday, with
:11:01. > :11:05.the Labour Party. They have been snookered, and Gordon Brown has been
:11:06. > :11:09.wound up by the media to offer all this and to try and drag in the
:11:10. > :11:15.working-class into staying in the No camp. He did not succeed. He
:11:16. > :11:19.galvanised the middle class, yes. He now seems to want to get the SNP to
:11:20. > :11:22.help them do that. Yes will stop if I was Gordon, I would have woken up
:11:23. > :11:26.today wishing that I had gone with Wendy Alexander's proposal to have
:11:27. > :11:30.the referendum six years ago, because he would still be prime Mr.
:11:31. > :11:35.But he did not do that, because he always bottles it. The problem now
:11:36. > :11:39.is, Labour has lost its heartland in Scotland, now we have David Cameron,
:11:40. > :11:44.who is really serious about pushing this English agenda. It sees off
:11:45. > :11:50.UKIP, and his right wing, because he is cloaking himself in English
:11:51. > :11:57.nationalism. And it does away with Labour, the only UK wide National
:11:58. > :11:59.party. The Tories are corralled in England. Labour is the only
:12:00. > :12:06.significant political party across the whole UK. If Labour can be
:12:07. > :12:13.broken, Cameron is safe and the Tories are safe in England, but the
:12:14. > :12:16.downside of that for them is that of course, that could break up the
:12:17. > :12:20.United Kingdom for sure. Is there not an issue for labour that, in
:12:21. > :12:23.Scotland, it always seems to be arguing within the framework of the
:12:24. > :12:27.Nationalists are happy with? They are still doing it. It is now, more
:12:28. > :12:32.powers for the Scottish parliament. They seem incapable of managing to
:12:33. > :12:35.do get out of that, if you like, and develop a story about social
:12:36. > :12:39.solidarity across the UK, and say, of course we were more powers for
:12:40. > :12:43.the Scottish parliament, but it is not the most important thing. We are
:12:44. > :12:48.not petty nationalist like the SNP are. Why can't they do that? I'm not
:12:49. > :12:54.sure if I accept your analysis about they haven't done that. If they
:12:55. > :12:56.have, it hasn't worked! They may be social solidarity argument
:12:57. > :13:01.throughout the referendum campaign, with varying levels of success. The
:13:02. > :13:05.problem is, if there is an appetite for more devolution, it would be
:13:06. > :13:09.foolish not to be on that territory. So they have come to the conclusion
:13:10. > :13:12.that more devolution is what Scotland wants and good for
:13:13. > :13:18.Scotland, so they are attempting to deliver it. That is a very, very
:13:19. > :13:21.different concept to saying you want an independent Scotland. There is a
:13:22. > :13:25.vast difference, so to suggest that because they are calling for more
:13:26. > :13:32.powers, that is in some way capitulating to Scottish naturalism,
:13:33. > :13:36.they don't accept that. I wonder... We are getting terribly excited
:13:37. > :13:40.about this. The game is still on. All this talk among the SNP about
:13:41. > :13:46.getting together the common folks, and Bruce Croall foot, he responded
:13:47. > :13:52.to that by saying, can we not just shut up for a few days? -- Bruce
:13:53. > :13:57.Crawford. Wouldn't that be sensible? Actually, no. What was great and
:13:58. > :14:01.fascinating as an exercise in democracy about the campaign was, it
:14:02. > :14:04.came from the bottom up, and it is not the leaderships of any of the
:14:05. > :14:09.parties that can control this. The people want to move on. This is
:14:10. > :14:15.about power, not devolution. Why Glasgow voted for independence, they
:14:16. > :14:17.want power. There is not time. You have to come back in future. Thank
:14:18. > :14:17.you. I'll be back
:14:18. > :14:22.at the same time next week.