:00:38. > :00:39.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics live
:00:40. > :00:47.There'll be one less Conservative MP here after Reckless defected
:00:48. > :00:57.joins us live from his constituency he's triggered a by-election.
:00:58. > :01:01.It's not been the best of starts for the Prime Minister as he arrives
:01:02. > :01:03.in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election.
:01:04. > :01:06.On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has resigned
:01:07. > :01:11.RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq
:01:12. > :01:20.And should we be targeting Syria too?
:01:21. > :01:26.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland.
:01:27. > :01:28.The referendum has prompted a dramatic rise He in political
:01:29. > :01:31.engagement, but what where can political parties do to harness not
:01:32. > :01:43.And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists,
:01:44. > :01:46.who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals.
:01:47. > :01:52.Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.
:01:53. > :01:56.And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:57. > :01:59.And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP.
:02:00. > :02:02.At the current rate of Tory resignations,
:02:03. > :02:05.Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote
:02:06. > :02:09.address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow.
:02:10. > :02:13.It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP
:02:14. > :02:16.defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and
:02:17. > :02:22.Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty.
:02:23. > :02:29.Here's what the Prime Minister had to say
:02:30. > :02:42.These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and
:02:43. > :02:46.rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you
:02:47. > :02:48.want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain
:02:49. > :02:53.that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a
:02:54. > :02:55.Conservative government after the next election.
:02:56. > :03:03.And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester.
:03:04. > :03:10.Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative
:03:11. > :03:14.colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping
:03:15. > :03:18.faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You
:03:19. > :03:21.heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was
:03:22. > :03:26.dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have
:03:27. > :03:30.increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour
:03:31. > :03:34.managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under
:03:35. > :03:39.Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my
:03:40. > :03:42.words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut
:03:43. > :03:46.immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to
:03:47. > :03:49.the community, particularly over house-building. The government has
:03:50. > :03:55.broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my
:03:56. > :04:01.voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to
:04:02. > :04:05.UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency
:04:06. > :04:09.chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and
:04:10. > :04:14.you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office
:04:15. > :04:19.telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the
:04:20. > :04:40.Tories. This is your voice mail... I have just picked up your e-mail...
:04:41. > :04:45.So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham
:04:46. > :04:51.to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did
:04:52. > :04:56.you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually
:04:57. > :04:59.do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you
:05:00. > :05:03.cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a
:05:04. > :05:07.decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by
:05:08. > :05:13.UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a
:05:14. > :05:22.lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises.
:05:23. > :05:27.That is why I am moving to UKIP, so I can deliver the change this
:05:28. > :05:34.country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage,
:05:35. > :05:39.quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election.
:05:40. > :05:45.So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting
:05:46. > :05:48.UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number
:05:49. > :05:51.of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are
:05:52. > :05:55.winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned
:05:56. > :05:58.with the political class in Westminster, that they have not
:05:59. > :06:03.voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is
:06:04. > :06:08.inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the
:06:09. > :06:12.last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of
:06:13. > :06:16.life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support.
:06:17. > :06:23.That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of
:06:24. > :06:28.change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My
:06:29. > :06:31.ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2010
:06:32. > :06:35.as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David
:06:36. > :06:40.Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick
:06:41. > :06:43.Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and
:06:44. > :06:47.we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to
:06:48. > :06:53.pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to
:06:54. > :06:59.give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up
:07:00. > :07:09.for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the
:07:10. > :07:12.party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this
:07:13. > :07:18.is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you
:07:19. > :07:22.winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are
:07:23. > :07:27.frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to
:07:28. > :07:31.save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened,
:07:32. > :07:35.you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in
:07:36. > :07:46.Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at
:07:47. > :07:50.MPs who have moved party before, almost none of them have given their
:07:51. > :07:54.voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking
:07:55. > :07:58.permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe
:07:59. > :08:02.many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a
:08:03. > :08:05.Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to
:08:06. > :08:12.decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our
:08:13. > :08:15.country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and
:08:16. > :08:24.have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and
:08:25. > :08:27.honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my
:08:28. > :08:33.constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is
:08:34. > :08:37.the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and
:08:38. > :08:43.do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas
:08:44. > :08:46.Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for
:08:47. > :08:53.disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary,
:08:54. > :08:56.the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was
:08:57. > :09:01.extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years
:09:02. > :09:03.ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit
:09:04. > :09:08.speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things,
:09:09. > :09:13.there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at
:09:14. > :09:16.Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few
:09:17. > :09:20.ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just
:09:21. > :09:25.to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who
:09:26. > :09:32.believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change,
:09:33. > :09:39.who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which
:09:40. > :09:42.has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system,
:09:43. > :09:49.which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question -
:09:50. > :09:52.after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David
:09:53. > :09:58.Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would
:09:59. > :10:02.you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP
:10:03. > :10:09.policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with
:10:10. > :10:14.immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will
:10:15. > :10:19.look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to
:10:20. > :10:32.restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How
:10:33. > :10:38.serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease,
:10:39. > :10:41.destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is
:10:42. > :10:45.beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen
:10:46. > :10:51.eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing
:10:52. > :10:56.like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that.
:10:57. > :11:00.There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis
:11:01. > :11:03.writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the
:11:04. > :11:07.first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used
:11:08. > :11:13.to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic
:11:14. > :11:18.in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some
:11:19. > :11:21.of us were not around in the 1980s, but I imagine it is pretty bad.
:11:22. > :11:24.There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose, the
:11:25. > :11:28.media problem of the general election which they cannot win if
:11:29. > :11:31.UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in
:11:32. > :11:36.many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does
:11:37. > :11:40.it make sense for the Conservative Party to remain one party, or would
:11:41. > :11:45.it not be better for the hard-core of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics
:11:46. > :11:50.to essentially join UKIP or form their own party? At least the
:11:51. > :11:55.Conservatives would become more internally manageable. And probably
:11:56. > :12:01.lose the next election. Probably, yes. That is what you are advising
:12:02. > :12:06.them? If the reward is to have a coherent party in 15 years' time. It
:12:07. > :12:11.is just as well you are a columnist, not a party strategist. I
:12:12. > :12:17.was an anorak in the 1980s, who watched the Labour conference on the
:12:18. > :12:21.TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of course I was, that is how sad I am.
:12:22. > :12:25.But once again the crisis from UKIP has forced the Prime Minister to
:12:26. > :12:30.step in an even more Eurosceptic direction. Said on television what
:12:31. > :12:35.he was trying not to say, which is that if he does not get his way in
:12:36. > :12:39.the European negotiations, he will recommend to the British people that
:12:40. > :12:43.we should go. He began by saying, as I have always said, and when they
:12:44. > :12:48.say that, you know they are saying something new. He basically said,
:12:49. > :12:53.Britain should not stay if it is not in Britain's interests. I think this
:12:54. > :13:00.is big stakes for both the Tories and four UKIP. The Tories are able
:13:01. > :13:03.to write off Clacton. Rochester is number 271 on the UKIP friendly
:13:04. > :13:08.list. If the Tories win it, big moment for them. If UKIP lose it,
:13:09. > :13:20.this strategy of various will be facing a bit of a setback.
:13:21. > :13:23.To what extent are Mark Reckless's views shared by Conservative
:13:24. > :13:28.The Sunday Politics commissioned an exclusive poll of Conservative
:13:29. > :13:32.Pollsters ComRes spoke to over 1,000 councillors -
:13:33. > :13:35.that's almost an eighth of their council base - and Eleanor Garnier
:13:36. > :13:48.There is not a single party conference at the seaside this year,
:13:49. > :13:52.and Sunday Politics could not get through them all without a trip to
:13:53. > :13:56.the coast. So here we are on the shore in Sussex. There are plenty of
:13:57. > :14:01.Conservative councillors here, and Tory MPs as well, but one challenge
:14:02. > :14:08.they all face is UKIP, who have got their sights on coastal towns.
:14:09. > :14:11.Places like Worthing East and surer and, with high numbers of
:14:12. > :14:16.pensioners, providing rich pickings for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories
:14:17. > :14:23.run the county council, but UKIP are the official opposition, with ten
:14:24. > :14:27.councillors. We cannot lose any more ground to UKIP. If we lose any more
:14:28. > :14:31.ground, if you look at the way it has swung from us to them, it is
:14:32. > :14:35.getting near to being the middle point, where we might start losing
:14:36. > :14:44.seats which we have always regarded as safe seats. So, it has got to be
:14:45. > :14:47.stemmed, it cannot go any further. Our exclusive survey looked at the
:14:48. > :14:52.policy areas where the Conservatives are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU
:14:53. > :14:59.Referendum Bill is called tomorrow, 45% say they would vote to leave,
:15:00. > :15:11.39% would stay in. Asked about immigration...
:15:12. > :15:19.It was those issues, Europe and immigration, that Mark Reckless said
:15:20. > :15:23.were the head of his decision. I promised to cut immigration while
:15:24. > :15:29.treating people fairly and humanely. I cannot keep that promise as a
:15:30. > :15:33.Conservative, I can keep it as UKIP. When asked if Conservative
:15:34. > :15:38.councillors would like an electoral pact with UKIP in the run-up to the
:15:39. > :15:44.general election, one third said they support the idea. 63% are
:15:45. > :15:50.opposed and 7% don't know. Conservative councillors who left
:15:51. > :15:56.the party to join UKIP say it wasn't easy. I left because basically the
:15:57. > :16:02.Conservatives left me. I saw it as a difficult decision to change, but
:16:03. > :16:11.what I was seeing with UKIP was freed. Me being able to speak for my
:16:12. > :16:15.residents. Back to our survey and on climate change 49% said it was
:16:16. > :16:23.happening, but that humans are not to blame. Our survey showed that 60%
:16:24. > :16:28.think David Cameron was wrong to pursue legalising gay marriage, with
:16:29. > :16:34.31% saying it was the right thing to do and 9% not sure. In Worthing
:16:35. > :16:39.councillors said gay marriage was divisive. That has really been an
:16:40. > :16:47.issue here, it might have damaged the party slightly, and I think in a
:16:48. > :16:52.way by setting a rule like that, it is a very religious thing and it is
:16:53. > :16:58.almost trying to play God to make that decision. But some of the
:16:59. > :17:04.party's toughest decisions have been over the economy. 56% in our survey
:17:05. > :17:09.thought the spending cuts the Government has so far announced have
:17:10. > :17:15.not gone far enough. 6% were not sure. They are prepared for
:17:16. > :17:20.difficult decisions, but local activists say the party's voice must
:17:21. > :17:26.be clearer. I think the message has to be more forceful, it has to be
:17:27. > :17:31.specially targeted to the ex-Conservative voters who now vote
:17:32. > :17:35.UKIP, especially in this area, the vast majority of UKIP people are
:17:36. > :17:39.disillusioned Conservatives. The message has to be loud and strong,
:17:40. > :17:44.come back and we are the party to give you what you want. With just
:17:45. > :17:49.eight months until the general election, the pressure is on and
:17:50. > :17:55.local Conservatives are searching for clues to help their party stem
:17:56. > :18:01.the flow of defections. Joining me now is William Hague, the former
:18:02. > :18:05.Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the House of Commons.
:18:06. > :18:09.Tories like Mark Reckless are defecting to UKIP because they don't
:18:10. > :18:14.trust the party leadership to deliver on Europe, do they? They
:18:15. > :18:19.believe people like you and David Cameron will campaign to stay in and
:18:20. > :18:26.they are right. They said before they defected that people should
:18:27. > :18:31.vote Conservative to get a referendum on Europe, and that is
:18:32. > :18:36.right of course. The only way to get a referendum is to do that and this
:18:37. > :18:41.is the point, the people should decide. However a future government
:18:42. > :18:46.decides it will campaign, it should be the people of the country who
:18:47. > :18:50.decide. Can you say to our viewers this morning that is not enough
:18:51. > :18:55.powers are repatriated back to Britain, you would want to come
:18:56. > :19:01.out, can you say that? Our objective is to get those powers and stay in.
:19:02. > :19:06.The answer to the question is I won't be deciding, David Cameron
:19:07. > :19:13.won't be deciding, you the voters will be deciding. But you have to
:19:14. > :19:18.give us your view. If you don't get enough powers back, would you vote
:19:19. > :19:23.to come out and recommended? Our objective is to get those powers and
:19:24. > :19:28.be able to stay in. You just get endless speculation years in
:19:29. > :19:32.advance. I will decide at the time how I will vote. Surely that is the
:19:33. > :19:38.rational position for everyone to take but I want a referendum to take
:19:39. > :19:43.place. I understand that. As you pointed out to Mark Reckless just
:19:44. > :19:47.now, unless there is a Conservative government, people won't have that
:19:48. > :19:56.choice. Under a Labour government they will not get a choice at all.
:19:57. > :20:00.Our survey of Tory councillors shows that almost 50% would vote to leave
:20:01. > :20:07.the EU in a referendum. I think it showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but
:20:08. > :20:14.again, I'm pretty sure they will decide at the time. They will want
:20:15. > :20:18.to see what a future government achieves in a renegotiation before
:20:19. > :20:22.they decide what to vote in a referendum. Unless David Cameron is
:20:23. > :20:30.Prime Minister and there is a Conservative government, there will
:20:31. > :20:34.not be a renegotiation. That is a point you have made four times. I
:20:35. > :20:37.think they have got it. Your Cabinet colleague says we should not be
:20:38. > :20:43.scared of quitting the EU, but you went native in the Foreign Office,
:20:44. > :20:48.didn't you? You used to be a Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign
:20:49. > :20:52.Office line man. No, I don't think so! We brought back the first
:20:53. > :21:00.reduced European budget ever in history. Even Margaret Thatcher...
:21:01. > :21:04.Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't it? Not much scares me after 26
:21:05. > :21:13.years in politics but we want to do the best thing for the country.
:21:14. > :21:18.Where we scared when we got us out of liability for Eurozone bailouts?
:21:19. > :21:21.We were not scared of anybody. People said we couldn't achieve
:21:22. > :21:28.things but we negotiated these things. We can do that with a wider
:21:29. > :21:35.negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless says he cannot keep the Conservative
:21:36. > :21:49.promise to tackle immigration. You have failed to keep your promise to
:21:50. > :21:54.keep net immigration down. You promised to cut it below 100,000,
:21:55. > :22:13.you failed. It is over 200,000 people. We have cut it from 250,000
:22:14. > :22:21.in 2005, the last figures were 240,000. I think we can file that
:22:22. > :22:25.under F four failed. It includes students, we want them in the
:22:26. > :22:30.country. You knew that when you made the promise. But has it come down?
:22:31. > :22:36.Yes, it has. Have we stopped the promise. But has it come down?
:22:37. > :22:41.coming here because of our benefit system? Yes. None of that happened
:22:42. > :22:46.under Labour. If Mark Reckless had his way, it would be more likely we
:22:47. > :22:52.would have a Labour government. They have an open door policy on
:22:53. > :22:58.immigration. You are not just losing MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters.
:22:59. > :23:03.Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows that 20% of people who voted Tory in
:23:04. > :23:07.2010 have abandoned youth and three quarters of them are voting UKIP
:23:08. > :23:14.now. We will see in the general election. Politics is very fluid in
:23:15. > :23:18.this country and we shouldn't deny that in any way but UKIP thought
:23:19. > :23:23.they were going to win the by-election in Newark, we had a
:23:24. > :23:28.thumping Conservative victory, and I think opinion polls are snapshots of
:23:29. > :23:32.opinion now. They are not forecast of the general election and we will
:23:33. > :23:36.be doing everything we can to get our message across. Today we are
:23:37. > :23:40.announcing 3 million more apprenticeships in the next
:23:41. > :23:46.Parliament. I think this is what people will be voting on, rather
:23:47. > :23:53.than who has defected. Your activist base once parked with UKIP. Our
:23:54. > :24:00.survey shows a third of Tory councillors would like a formal pact
:24:01. > :24:09.with UKIP. Why not? It shows two thirds are against it. No, it shows
:24:10. > :24:16.one third want it. I read the figures, it showed 67% don't want
:24:17. > :24:20.it. We are not going to make a pact with other parties, and they don't
:24:21. > :24:26.work in the British electoral system even if they were desirable. You are
:24:27. > :24:32.sharing the Cabinet committee on English votes for English laws. Is
:24:33. > :24:36.further devolution for Scotland conditional on progress towards
:24:37. > :24:40.English devolution? No, the commitment to Scotland is
:24:41. > :24:44.unconditional. We will meet the commitments to Scotland but we
:24:45. > :24:48.believe, we the Conservatives believe, that in tandem with that we
:24:49. > :24:53.have to resolve these questions about fairness to the rest of the UK
:24:54. > :24:58.as well. That will depend on other parties or the general election
:24:59. > :25:04.result. Are you committed to the Gordon Brown timetable? Yes,
:25:05. > :25:08.absolutely. So you are committed to producing draft legislation by Burns
:25:09. > :25:14.night, that is at the end of January. Will you produce proposals
:25:15. > :25:19.for English votes on English laws by then? We will, but whether they are
:25:20. > :25:25.agreed across the parties will depend on the other parties. There
:25:26. > :25:32.was no sign that they were agreeable at the Labour conference. We will
:25:33. > :25:37.produce our ideas on the same timetable as the timetable for
:25:38. > :25:41.Scottish devolution. You will therefore bring forward proposals
:25:42. > :25:47.for English votes for English laws by the end of January? Yes. And will
:25:48. > :25:51.you attempt to get them on the statute book before the election?
:25:52. > :25:57.The commitment in Scotland is to legislate after the election. You
:25:58. > :26:01.will publish a bill beforehand? We will publish proposals beforehand. I
:26:02. > :26:06.don't exclude doing something before the election, but the Scottish
:26:07. > :26:11.timetable is to legislate for the further devolution after the general
:26:12. > :26:16.election, whoever wins the election. Have you given thought as to what
:26:17. > :26:23.English votes for English laws would mean? I have thought a lot of it
:26:24. > :26:27.over 15 years. I am not going to prejudge what the outcome will be,
:26:28. > :26:33.but it does mean in essence that when decisions are taken, decisions
:26:34. > :26:38.that only affect England or only England and Wales, then only the MPs
:26:39. > :26:42.from England and Wales should be making those decisions. You can
:26:43. > :26:46.achieve that in many different ways. Is that it for English
:26:47. > :26:52.devolution, is that what it amounts to? That is devolution to England if
:26:53. > :26:57.you like, but within England there is a lot of other devolution going
:26:58. > :27:01.on and we might well want to extend that further. We have given more
:27:02. > :27:07.freedom to local authorities, there is a lot of scope to do more of
:27:08. > :27:16.that, but that in itself is not the answer to the problem of what
:27:17. > :27:21.happens at Westminster. You haven't just given Scotland more devolution
:27:22. > :27:26.or planned to do it, you have also enshrined the Barnett formula and
:27:27. > :27:30.that seems to be in perpetuity. It is widely regarded as being unfair
:27:31. > :27:35.to Wales and many of the poorer English regions. Why do you
:27:36. > :27:41.perpetuate it? It will become less relevant overtime if more
:27:42. > :27:47.tax-raising powers... It goes all the way back to the 1970s, we made a
:27:48. > :27:52.commitment on that, we will keep our commitments to Scotland as more --
:27:53. > :28:00.but as more tax-raising powers devolved, the Barnett formula is
:28:01. > :28:05.less significant. If you transfer ?5 billion of tax-raising powers to
:28:06. > :28:10.Scotland, 5 billion comes off the Barnett formula? It will be a lot
:28:11. > :28:15.more complicated than that, but yes, as their own decisions about
:28:16. > :28:20.taxation are made, the grand from Westminster will go down. And you
:28:21. > :28:24.can guarantee that if there is a majority Conservative government,
:28:25. > :28:28.there will be English votes for English laws after the election?
:28:29. > :28:32.Yes, I stress again that there are different ways of doing it but if
:28:33. > :28:36.there is no cross-party agreement on that, the Conservatives will produce
:28:37. > :28:41.our proposals and campaign for them in the general election. Don't go
:28:42. > :28:47.away because I want to move on to some other matters.
:28:48. > :28:49.Now to the fight against so-called Islamic State terrorists.
:28:50. > :28:52.Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried out their first flights over Iraq
:28:53. > :28:55.since MPs gave their approval for air-strikes against the militants.
:28:56. > :29:03.When you face a situation with psychobabble -- psychopathic killers
:29:04. > :29:07.who have already brutally beheaded one of our own citizens, who have
:29:08. > :29:13.already launched and tried to execute plots in our own country to
:29:14. > :29:18.maim innocent people, we have a choice - we can either stand back
:29:19. > :29:22.from this and say it is too difficult, let's let someone else
:29:23. > :29:26.try to keep our country safe, or we take the correct decision to have a
:29:27. > :29:31.full, comprehensive strategy but let's be prepared to play our role
:29:32. > :29:34.to make sure these people cannot do not trust harm.
:29:35. > :29:38.And William Hague is still with me - until July he was, of course,
:29:39. > :29:50.Why have only six Tornado jets being mobilised? Do not assume that is all
:29:51. > :29:54.that will be taking part in this operation. That is all that has been
:29:55. > :30:01.announced and I do not think we should speculate. Even the Danes are
:30:02. > :30:04.sending more fighter jets. There is no restriction in the House of
:30:05. > :30:10.Commons resolution passed on Friday on what we can do. So why so
:30:11. > :30:15.little? Do not underestimate what our Tornados can do. They have some
:30:16. > :30:19.unique capabilities, capabilities which have been specifically asked
:30:20. > :30:23.for by our allies. When you are on the wrong end of six Tornados, it
:30:24. > :30:28.will not feel like a small effort. But there will be other things which
:30:29. > :30:32.can add to that effort. We are joining in a month after the
:30:33. > :30:37.operation started, we are late, we are behind America, France,
:30:38. > :30:41.Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, one hand tied behind our
:30:42. > :30:46.backs cause of the rule about not attacking Syria - why is the British
:30:47. > :30:50.government leading from behind? First of all, we are a democratic
:30:51. > :30:55.country, and you know all about Parliamentary approval. You could
:30:56. > :31:00.have recalled parliament. We have done that, with a political
:31:01. > :31:05.consensus. Other European countries also took the decision on Friday to
:31:06. > :31:07.send their military assets. Our allies are absolutely content with
:31:08. > :31:11.that, and Britain will play an important role, along with many
:31:12. > :31:18.other nations, including Arab nations. General Sir David Richards
:31:19. > :31:24.Sheriff, who just steps down as the Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he
:31:25. > :31:26.condemns the spineless lack of leadership and the absence of any
:31:27. > :31:37.credible strategy. It is embarrassing,isn't it? Of course,
:31:38. > :31:41.they turn into armchair generals. We are playing an important role, we
:31:42. > :31:45.are a democratic country. Your viewers will remember, we had a vote
:31:46. > :31:49.last year on military action in Syria and we were defeated in the
:31:50. > :31:53.House of Commons, a bad moment for our foreign policy. We have taken
:31:54. > :31:56.care to bring this forward when we can win a vote in the House of
:31:57. > :32:05.Commons, and that is how we will proceed. The air Chief Marshal until
:32:06. > :32:10.recently in charge of the RAF, he says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq
:32:11. > :32:16.but not Syria. He calls the decision ludicrous. Of course, it DOES make
:32:17. > :32:24.sense to bomb Iraq, because the Iraqi government has asked for our
:32:25. > :32:28.assistance. This came up a lot in the debate on Friday, and the Prime
:32:29. > :32:34.Minister explained, similar to what I have just been saying, that there
:32:35. > :32:38.is not a political consensus about Syria in the House of Commons. When
:32:39. > :32:41.we did it last year, we were defeated, and it was described by
:32:42. > :32:47.all commentators as a huge blow to the government and to our foreign
:32:48. > :32:48.policy. So, we will bring forward proposals when there is a majority
:32:49. > :33:12.in There are several answers. Just
:33:13. > :33:18.because you're not doing anything does not mean you should not do
:33:19. > :33:25.something. The United States and other countries are involved in
:33:26. > :33:31.action against targets in Syria. If we were to put that proposal to the
:33:32. > :33:34.House of Commons tomorrow and it was defeated we would not have achieved
:33:35. > :33:42.a great deal. You don't know what it would be if the case is strong. The
:33:43. > :33:48.Labour Party holds hostage your foreign and defence policy? We are
:33:49. > :33:51.democratic country and have to go through the House of Commons in
:33:52. > :34:02.these things and the Labour Party is a large part. Is it not embarrassing
:34:03. > :34:06.to be on the wrong side of so many of these military experts? Why
:34:07. > :34:11.should we trust the judgement of here today, gone tomorrow
:34:12. > :34:16.politicians against the expertise? We have military experts with us
:34:17. > :34:22.now. This is the big difference from the last government. We have
:34:23. > :34:26.national security council. Which you are cheering? It is cheered by the
:34:27. > :34:37.Prime Minister and I am a member of it. We take decisions together. By
:34:38. > :34:43.the people who have the information now. Chairing the committee, you
:34:44. > :34:49.will know what British and American intelligence says about Syria. The
:34:50. > :34:53.Prime Minister has said there's a danger the British-born jihadists
:34:54. > :34:58.will come back and attack us but the intelligence reports are quite
:34:59. > :35:07.clear, Al-Qaeda and its associates are selecting and indoctrinating the
:35:08. > :35:14.jihadist sincerity not Iraq. -- in Syria, not Iraq. I cannot comment on
:35:15. > :35:19.intelligence reports but Syria are direct threat to this country, and
:35:20. > :35:27.have we excluded taking action? We have not. Could you come back and
:35:28. > :35:30.ask? It was specifically said in the motion before the house that if we
:35:31. > :35:35.wanted to take action we would come back to the House of Commons. That
:35:36. > :35:38.could happen but we haven't taken any decision and we would not do so
:35:39. > :35:43.as we thought we were just going to be defeated like we were last year.
:35:44. > :35:49.The government supports strikes on silly as and you must believe they
:35:50. > :35:57.are legal. The legal base differs from one country to another. You
:35:58. > :36:02.must believe the US is involved in legal action otherwise you would not
:36:03. > :36:07.support it. They are taking action legally and we support action but
:36:08. > :36:14.really, I entirely understand it is a legitimate question, but you are
:36:15. > :36:21.asking why Iraq and not silly? The answers are those I have given. --
:36:22. > :36:25.and not Syria? We support our allies in what they do and we are also
:36:26. > :36:28.engaged in building up the political strength of the more moderate
:36:29. > :36:35.opposition in Syria and trying to bring about a piece solution. Has
:36:36. > :36:41.the government got legal advice that if we were to attack Syria that
:36:42. > :36:44.would be legal? The way it works as if we propose doing something we
:36:45. > :36:50.seek for the specific legal advice. Why would you not look for it
:36:51. > :36:54.anyway? Because you have to be sure of the legal advice at the time and
:36:55. > :36:59.we do not comment on the advice given to us. Tony Blair ended up
:37:00. > :37:04.publishing houses. He did so because there was a huge public dispute. You
:37:05. > :37:09.have not had legal advice that Britain attacking Syria would be
:37:10. > :37:13.legal? The legal situation is likely to be the barrier, let me put it
:37:14. > :37:21.that way, because within international law, you can act in
:37:22. > :37:24.the face of extreme distress and collective self-defence, so you can
:37:25. > :37:34.imagine legal justification for this. We will take the advice at the
:37:35. > :37:35.time in detail. You're watching Sunday Politics, goodbye to viewers
:37:36. > :37:41.in Scotland who leave us now. Good morning and welcome to
:37:42. > :37:43.Sunday Politics Scotland. How long will be Spike and political
:37:44. > :37:58.engagement last? Will the political parties continue
:37:59. > :38:01.to feel the love from new members And what do additional powers
:38:02. > :38:05.look like when it comes to Can governments
:38:06. > :38:10.actually create jobs? It's the week after the big vote
:38:11. > :38:13.and while posturing over powers and leadership continues
:38:14. > :38:15.the number of people joining political parties in Scotland has
:38:16. > :38:19.reached an unprecedented level. With a turnout out of almost 85%,
:38:20. > :38:22.the referendum undoubtedly stirred up interest in Scottish politics
:38:23. > :38:26.but without independence as a focus, how can the parties hold
:38:27. > :38:49.on to this renewed enthusiasm? As the light faded, the queue grew.
:38:50. > :38:59.Fresh Greens joined the party's Glasgow branch, so many that it
:39:00. > :39:04.exceeded their expectations. I am utterly overwhelmed, thank you. At
:39:05. > :39:09.the last count, more than 4000 signed up to the party in the seven
:39:10. > :39:17.days after the referendum taking total membership up to 5600. Tom is
:39:18. > :39:22.one of the new joiners. The whole referendum has energised me and my
:39:23. > :39:27.friends. We had such a feeling of hope. Your vote actually meant
:39:28. > :39:31.something last week and hopefully we can carry that on. The Greens are
:39:32. > :39:39.not alone in that boosted popularity. Since the referendum,
:39:40. > :39:43.membership has grown to almost 70,000 making it the third largest
:39:44. > :39:49.party in the UK but as the hangover lists, will new members lose
:39:50. > :39:56.interest? There will inevitably be some who are brought back down by
:39:57. > :39:59.life and in some cases some can be disaffected and there may be
:40:00. > :40:06.financial reasons or emotional reasons, but I do not believe it
:40:07. > :40:11.will be a great deal. You cannot turn the clock back. The awakening
:40:12. > :40:17.of people to real power and real change. Once that has happened it is
:40:18. > :40:20.a march forward. Suzanne used to support the Labour Party and is not
:40:21. > :40:25.the only member to switch allegiance. Although the party will
:40:26. > :40:31.not publish membership and feel we are told that has increased by
:40:32. > :40:35.hundreds during the period. The Scottish Socialists have reported an
:40:36. > :40:40.increase as well with no data available for Conservatives Liberal
:40:41. > :40:46.Democrats. How long will this renewed enthusiasm last and what can
:40:47. > :40:52.politicians do to capture it? We have seen fantastic engagement on
:40:53. > :41:00.both sides. It has engaged people. The situation now looks like a
:41:01. > :41:04.different challenge, because in challenge, you mobilise over
:41:05. > :41:07.Scottish interests, and what is very clear is that so far the parties
:41:08. > :41:11.that were supporting the yes side seemed to be doing a better job at
:41:12. > :41:20.this, which makes sense because people were brought on who now want
:41:21. > :41:25.to stay on board, whereas the No site have to create a new topic that
:41:26. > :41:28.grabs people passionately, and they have to make the Westminster
:41:29. > :41:33.election is not just about Westminster but about Scottish
:41:34. > :41:38.interests. The hopes of the new card carrying members join those of the
:41:39. > :41:41.party faithful and a Scotland's politics continue to change it seems
:41:42. > :41:43.there is renewed pressure on the party faithful and a Scotland's
:41:44. > :41:45.politics continue to change it seems there is renewed pressure on the
:41:46. > :41:51.parties not to disappoint. I am joined by Patrick Harvie now,
:41:52. > :41:58.and from Birmingham studio, David Mundell. Were you as disconcerted
:41:59. > :42:05.that that meeting as you appeared to be? I was blown away completely.
:42:06. > :42:10.Normally the Glasgow branch meets in the backroom of a pulp and if we get
:42:11. > :42:14.50 people that is great, so we moved to a bigger venue because we thought
:42:15. > :42:18.might get more than that but even that venue was mobbed before the
:42:19. > :42:25.meeting began with a huge queue stretching down the path. We had to
:42:26. > :42:30.have a separate meeting outside. If these figures are accurate that your
:42:31. > :42:35.membership has tripled. Quadrupled. There is an issue for you as the
:42:36. > :42:41.leader of the Greens in Scotland. In what sense do you own the party? I
:42:42. > :42:46.never did. They knew people who have joined could quite easily tangling
:42:47. > :42:51.policy in a different direction? That has always been the case that
:42:52. > :42:57.the membership control the party. We do not use leadership, I am the core
:42:58. > :43:00.convener, and that simply means we cheer at the National Council and
:43:01. > :43:05.are elected every year. We do not dictate policy strategy. The council
:43:06. > :43:11.and the annual conference make those decisions and that will continue to
:43:12. > :43:15.be the case. One obvious example, perhaps unlikely, but let's say all
:43:16. > :43:19.these said that Watkins used as was the green bit of your policy and we
:43:20. > :43:25.do not like the independence but so can we scrap that? I know for a fact
:43:26. > :43:28.there have been yes and No voters who have joined us in the wake of
:43:29. > :43:33.the referendum, which is partly because although we were clear about
:43:34. > :43:37.the majority position, we were always comfortable challenging the
:43:38. > :43:49.SNP on AV as we disagreed. My point stands. That would have been the
:43:50. > :43:56.case even before this. According to you it is quadrupled the case now?
:43:57. > :44:01.So it is much more exciting! The first thing we should ask viewers
:44:02. > :44:09.are you going to defect to UKIP? I most certainly am not. We have a big
:44:10. > :44:12.job to do in Scotland in terms of bringing and delivering more powers
:44:13. > :44:22.to the Scottish Parliament. We have had a very successful campaign. When
:44:23. > :44:27.you say we, you mean the Conservatives? The Conservative
:44:28. > :44:31.party in Scotland have played a very significant role in the referendum
:44:32. > :44:36.campaign. Ruth Davidson has led from the front and that was ignored from
:44:37. > :44:42.commentators on all sides of the argument. We made a passionate case
:44:43. > :44:45.for Britain as a positive case for Scotland's future and everyone
:44:46. > :44:51.acknowledges Ruth Davidson was the game changer in relation to more
:44:52. > :44:57.powers for the Scottish Parliament for her bold proposals. I am not
:44:58. > :44:59.sure everyone does agree with that. The Conservative party recruitment
:45:00. > :45:05.drive in Scotland, how's that going? The number we have made
:45:06. > :45:09.available throughout this campaign is the 80,000 people who signed up
:45:10. > :45:16.to our Conservative friends of the union campaign. But how many new
:45:17. > :45:23.members? Focused on actually getting people active in politics, and Ruth
:45:24. > :45:31.Davidson led that. We want to continue that. We want to keep these
:45:32. > :45:34.people active in their own localities and nationally and some
:45:35. > :45:45.have gone on to join the party and want to be candidates. A lot of
:45:46. > :45:49.those people want to be active. We have about 11,000 members and new
:45:50. > :45:55.members during the course of the campaign. How many? The people who
:45:56. > :45:58.signed up to friends of the union, that is what I think is the
:45:59. > :46:07.positive. You have said that, I am asking how many new members? Several
:46:08. > :46:13.hundred new members. About 11,000 at the moment, but 80,000 have been
:46:14. > :46:17.willing to sign up to our campaign to keep Scotland and the union. That
:46:18. > :46:24.is the third time you have said that. You're not using these
:46:25. > :46:30.old-fashioned methods like getting people to join your party? We are
:46:31. > :46:32.clearly moving forward into a different political environment and
:46:33. > :46:39.people want to be members of the party. They want to influence policy
:46:40. > :46:42.and perhaps stand for election. There are also people who want to be
:46:43. > :46:46.active in their local communities and I think that is one of the big
:46:47. > :46:50.challenges in Scotland because under the present Scottish government we
:46:51. > :46:57.have seen a centralisation of power. Even if they want to be active in
:46:58. > :47:02.their local communities they have little opportunity. The problem is
:47:03. > :47:07.that no one is going to deny that getting more members is a good thing
:47:08. > :47:12.from your point of view, but the question for you and the SNP as well
:47:13. > :47:15.is what this really means, whether these people are just coming on
:47:16. > :47:20.because there's a bit of excitement after the referendum? Or whether you
:47:21. > :47:27.can convince them to become activists? Of the people we have met
:47:28. > :47:31.not just in the Glasgow branch, there's a real appetite and
:47:32. > :47:35.enthusiasm for getting involved, but we do not know exactly what our
:47:36. > :47:39.membership will be a year or two from now but we hope it will
:47:40. > :47:44.continue to grow. It goes beyond just the numbers. The next link
:47:45. > :47:49.coming up as the general election. The next thing as the debate about
:47:50. > :47:56.where devolution goes next. Can I just say one thing. Back do you have
:47:57. > :48:00.ambitions of having a Green MP? Of course, why would you stand on
:48:01. > :48:05.election if you do not want to get elected. We do you think that might
:48:06. > :48:11.be? There are target seats we're going to announcing shortly. We will
:48:12. > :48:15.be announcing target seats shortly, but the point I want to make, and
:48:16. > :48:20.this is really important, the connection of people with politics,
:48:21. > :48:23.and we need to find ways of political parties being more open to
:48:24. > :48:34.that and not just saying we have left number, you have that. This is
:48:35. > :48:37.about a political process. Briefly, David, do the Conservatives have
:48:38. > :48:46.ambition? A lot of areas where you used to have seats, some of them
:48:47. > :48:50.SNP, voted 60 - 40 against independence. Do you see that as an
:48:51. > :48:53.opportunity? A significant target for us as those who have
:48:54. > :48:59.Conservative values but have been voting SNP. I think the referendum
:49:00. > :49:05.demonstrated that at a lot of people have come to understand that if you
:49:06. > :49:09.vote SNP you are voting for independence and a focus on
:49:10. > :49:11.constitutional issues, and if you want to see Conservative policy
:49:12. > :49:16.implemented you should vote for the Conservative Party. Which is your
:49:17. > :49:24.main target to be the second Conservative seat in Scotland? I am
:49:25. > :49:30.not going to fall into that trap. We have been there before. The analysis
:49:31. > :49:34.and focuses entirely about the numbers. What we want to do is get
:49:35. > :49:39.good candidates in place and all the seats in Scotland and fight as hard
:49:40. > :49:41.as we can. Don't go away, we will come back to you.
:49:42. > :49:43.We've seen the grass-roots, but the people
:49:44. > :49:46.in suits are left arguing about more powers for the Scottish Parliament.
:49:47. > :49:48.Lord Smith, the chair of the cross-party
:49:49. > :49:50.commission in devolution, is asking the parties for their proposals.
:49:51. > :49:52.We heard in the campaign about job-creating powers.
:49:53. > :49:54.But what are these drivers to employment?
:49:55. > :49:56.Can governments push a lever and create jobs?
:49:57. > :50:04.As Andrew Kerr reports, there's no rest or relaxation,
:50:05. > :50:06.as those carrying on the campaign for constitutional change want to
:50:07. > :50:28.see proposals for powers taking-off, rather than stalling.
:50:29. > :50:36.creaming off holidays after a long, hard battle. Unless they have jetted
:50:37. > :50:44.off, more for Parliament has been in people's brains. The turbofan engine
:50:45. > :50:49.is responding in this era craft, no doubt politicians wish they had this
:50:50. > :50:53.kind of instantaneous control. Governments have to rely on
:50:54. > :51:01.different levers to pursue policies. It sounded like there was a simple
:51:02. > :51:09.manoeuvre for employment. Alistair Darling struggled but fundamentally
:51:10. > :51:15.do governments create jobs? The implications seem to be that there
:51:16. > :51:20.are laws which need to be passed or powers handed over from Westminster
:51:21. > :51:27.to Holyrood that somehow instantly and magically lead to job creation.
:51:28. > :51:31.I think it says something about how instinctively on the left many
:51:32. > :51:38.Scottish politicians are that that assumption was not challenged more
:51:39. > :51:48.frequently. Year passenger duty could be set at a local level to
:51:49. > :51:54.help businesses, say some. Powers are only important in so far as they
:51:55. > :51:59.allow businesses to create jobs. A range of tax powers for Scotland
:52:00. > :52:04.which allow government to create the environment to allow businesses to
:52:05. > :52:08.create jobs. Our members have consistently highlighted business
:52:09. > :52:12.rates as one of the key taxation factors for the businesses but that
:52:13. > :52:21.has already been devolved for 15 years. Governments can react on the
:52:22. > :52:27.tax system and insight ways to get out of the current system to help.
:52:28. > :52:32.Ultimately the people who create jobs are at those who start new
:52:33. > :52:39.businesses and expand existing businesses, employ people, grow and
:52:40. > :52:43.make money. Not so for this independence leading commentator.
:52:44. > :52:49.More powers are useful to give government a strong guiding hand.
:52:50. > :52:56.Jobs depend on your skills base and how much investment there is.
:52:57. > :53:01.Britain has one of the lowest levels of industrial investment in the
:53:02. > :53:06.Western world because we put all our money in banks and send it abroad.
:53:07. > :53:12.It would be useful if there was a way to encourage investment.
:53:13. > :53:17.Critically, what does the Scottish government need to get to create
:53:18. > :53:22.jobs? Key powers over two things, some degree of control over the rate
:53:23. > :53:31.of business taxation which is normal in most industrialised countries. It
:53:32. > :53:38.needs powers to borrow in its own right which feeds directly into
:53:39. > :53:49.business productivity. Aiming high or perhaps too tall an order? The
:53:50. > :53:55.Westminster parties need to deliver. I am joined again by Patrick Harvie
:53:56. > :54:00.of the Green Park Day and a Conservative MP in about Birmingham
:54:01. > :54:05.studio. Corporation tax which was mentioned there, is that off the
:54:06. > :54:12.agenda as far as you are concerned for more devolution? I do not see
:54:13. > :54:16.the benefits of devolving corporation tax because I think you
:54:17. > :54:22.see the model from the US where you get into a race to the bottom
:54:23. > :54:28.basically if you have different levels of corporation tax within the
:54:29. > :54:34.United Kingdom. The Smith commission is up and running and people can
:54:35. > :54:38.submit views and ideas. I would argue against corporation tax. What
:54:39. > :54:43.I do want to see is the full devolution of income tax which we
:54:44. > :54:51.argued for because I think that is most significant. You are a member
:54:52. > :54:54.of the government and the government will have to implement this
:54:55. > :55:00.legislation. If the British government you are representing says
:55:01. > :55:07.we do not think corporation tax should be included it is not going
:55:08. > :55:14.to happen, is it? I am setting out a view among parties. I am not setting
:55:15. > :55:19.out the government possession. It is the conservative position which is
:55:20. > :55:23.we do not think the devolution of corporation tax within the UK would
:55:24. > :55:28.be beneficial to the Scottish economy. We think the full
:55:29. > :55:32.devolution of income tax would and that would assist many of the most
:55:33. > :55:40.small businesses in Scotland which are not part of the corporation tax
:55:41. > :55:43.regime in any event. One of the commentators after that exchange we
:55:44. > :55:49.saw between Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond said you would think we
:55:50. > :55:53.were in East Germany in the 1970s the way they go on about this. The
:55:54. > :55:59.idea that governments create jobs and they are powers which can be
:56:00. > :56:05.handed over which will transform the economy in Scotland, that is
:56:06. > :56:08.ridiculous, isn't it? Of course they read the relationship between
:56:09. > :56:14.government, the public sector and the private sector. Many of the jobs
:56:15. > :56:20.lost our jobs we're hours have been restricted and he has been cut in
:56:21. > :56:25.the public sector. The government's ability to decide how much money it
:56:26. > :56:32.spends and borrows determined jobs and wages in the public and private
:56:33. > :56:36.sector. It is obvious if what you are saying is spent more public
:56:37. > :56:41.money and give people more jobs in the public sector, that will create
:56:42. > :56:46.jobs. It is the idea that somehow or other the government can have more
:56:47. > :56:54.powers which will create jobs in the private sector, just that is not the
:56:55. > :56:58.way this works? Government decisions, not just investment in
:56:59. > :57:04.industries but government decisions about regulation on industries do
:57:05. > :57:11.affect the ability to create jobs and have quality jobs. For example,
:57:12. > :57:14.there are a great many decisions in relation to the energy industry
:57:15. > :57:21.which are still made at UK level even though they have a very local
:57:22. > :57:30.impact. More renewable energy in public and community levels. That is
:57:31. > :57:33.almost entirely dependent on hand-outs the electricity bills.
:57:34. > :57:42.Most private sector industry does not need subsidies. The call
:57:43. > :57:50.industry does, the oil industry and aviation industry get massive tax
:57:51. > :57:54.breaks. But things not to do with energy, surely it is the general
:57:55. > :58:01.economic environment that creates jobs? Much of it is regulated by the
:58:02. > :58:05.government, the banks is another example. A great many European
:58:06. > :58:09.countries have banks that have a natural investment in the real
:58:10. > :58:15.economy, that is what they do instead of putting it on the casino
:58:16. > :58:20.economy. The ability to ensure the economy functions for the common
:58:21. > :58:28.good, works for people's interests rather than those who suck value out
:58:29. > :58:34.of the economy. What about this idea that it is all about the powers the
:58:35. > :58:38.government has? I do not agree with that. Governments create the
:58:39. > :58:43.environment in which jobs and prosperity can come about. These
:58:44. > :58:48.Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament already have significant
:58:49. > :58:54.powers to do that. If you block to the north-east, Aberdeen, the oil
:58:55. > :58:58.industry, the key issues able raise the about what is holding the
:58:59. > :59:03.industry back is the infrastructure around about Aberdeen, the road
:59:04. > :59:08.network. We lack of housing in the area and the lack of skilled people
:59:09. > :59:13.have. These are three things already within the remix of the Scottish
:59:14. > :59:18.government. Hopefully now we have got the referendum out of the way we
:59:19. > :59:23.can have a focus on the significant decisions that can really affect job
:59:24. > :59:30.opportunities on the ground. Let me ask you about small industries. The
:59:31. > :59:36.rate of business formation has been relatively low for a long time not
:59:37. > :59:41.just computer other parts of the UK but compared to other countries
:59:42. > :59:46.around the world. Who knows, if we voted for independence may that
:59:47. > :59:49.would have changed but it seems a fairly intractable problem and I am
:59:50. > :59:55.not sure there is anything governments can do to address it, do
:59:56. > :00:06.you disagree? One thing we can do is take the burden of paperwork off of
:00:07. > :00:09.small businesses. It is easy for politicians but it is the one thing
:00:10. > :00:16.that I think would make a significant difference. What you are
:00:17. > :00:22.saying cannot be explanation because the paperwork praised by businesses
:00:23. > :00:27.in England is the same. I was not setting it out as something to
:00:28. > :00:34.change particularly in Scotland but the way people have to set up small
:00:35. > :00:37.businesses they identify that as the biggest impediment. I think we have
:00:38. > :00:43.maybe a lot of progress in Scotland in promoting a more entrepreneurial
:00:44. > :00:48.culture in Scotland and we have to do that whether independent or not.
:00:49. > :00:50.You're watching Sunday Politics Scotland.
:00:51. > :00:53.Let's cross now for the news with Andrew Kerr.
:00:54. > :00:55.Good afternoon. On the first day of the
:00:56. > :00:58.UK Conservative Party conference, the Prime Minister has repeated his
:00:59. > :01:01.pledge to deliver more devolution. Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr
:01:02. > :01:06.Show, David Cameron replied "Yes" FOUR times after he was asked
:01:07. > :01:10.if he would stick to the cross-party vow made before the vote.
:01:11. > :01:13.The SNP say their post-referendum surge in party membership shows
:01:14. > :01:21.people are putting their trust in THEM to hold Westminster to
:01:22. > :01:24.its promise of new powers. A cyclist has been seriously injured
:01:25. > :01:26.in a hit and run collision in Stirlingshire.
:01:27. > :01:30.The 47-year-old man was on the Kippen to Fintry road yesterday
:01:31. > :01:32.afternoon when he was hit by a van. It failed to stop.
:01:33. > :01:37.Police are now appealing for witnesses.
:01:38. > :01:39.Andy Murray has halted the 15-month title drought that had
:01:40. > :01:43.become a real worry after engineering a spectacular turnaround
:01:44. > :01:47.in the Shenzhen Open final. The Scot faced four match points
:01:48. > :01:50.in a second-set tie-break but saved them with some of
:01:51. > :02:00.his best tennis on his way to a 5-7 7-6 6-1 victory over Tommy Robredo.
:02:01. > :02:04.Let's look at the weather now, here's Gillian.
:02:05. > :02:13.Hello. A load of dry weather to come across the country this afternoon
:02:14. > :02:18.but a good deal of cloud and not much brightness. A band of showery
:02:19. > :02:22.rain mainly affecting Argyll and spreading into Perthshire and
:02:23. > :02:26.Speyside. A few bright spells across the south, perhaps the best or the
:02:27. > :02:31.Northern Isles and far north of the mainland. Mainly like winds will see
:02:32. > :02:41.things feel cool. That's all for now, back to Gordon.
:02:42. > :02:42.The Conservative party conference gets underway at
:02:43. > :02:44.Birmingham International Conference Centre today.
:02:45. > :02:47.Yesterday brought only bad news, with the defection of Mark Reckless
:02:48. > :02:49.to UKIP, and the sudden resignation of Brooks Newmark, minister
:02:50. > :02:52.for Civil Society, following his involvement in a sexting scandal.
:02:53. > :02:55.The double disaster is an unwelcome distraction for the
:02:56. > :02:59.party, as David Cameron tries to seize the initiative with further
:03:00. > :03:03.reform to the benefits system.I'm joined now by our
:03:04. > :03:04.Westminster Correspondent, David Porter, who's at the International
:03:05. > :03:19.Conference Centre in Birmingham. David Mandel has just assured has he
:03:20. > :03:24.is not about to defect to UKIP so you can take the glad tidings to the
:03:25. > :03:32.delegates. What is the feeling there about these defections? I think they
:03:33. > :03:36.think if this is how you want to get publicity for a party conference
:03:37. > :03:43.eight months before a general election this is probably not the
:03:44. > :03:47.way to do it. The headlines today are all about one who is reckless by
:03:48. > :03:56.name and the other reckless by nature. Mark reckless defected to
:03:57. > :04:05.UKIP and the other who resigned after a text message row and
:04:06. > :04:10.allegations about his private life. You talk to representatives here and
:04:11. > :04:16.those who followed the Tory party quite closely and they think there
:04:17. > :04:20.might be others who could be considering this. They could either
:04:21. > :04:26.do it this week at the conference, just see for instance on Wednesday
:04:27. > :04:30.morning ahead of David Cameron's speech, think of the adoptions.
:04:31. > :04:33.Order as many people think at the turn of the year when the Tory high
:04:34. > :04:41.command will think they have got over this. That would cause huge
:04:42. > :04:45.damage as well. It is not the way any party wants to generate
:04:46. > :04:51.headlines. I think what they will now be trying to do is hope they can
:04:52. > :04:56.draw a line under it and start the conference and talk about policies.
:04:57. > :05:02.There must be a certain sense of anger. It is one thing for people to
:05:03. > :05:07.say I have changed my mind and I'm disillusioned with my party. This
:05:08. > :05:12.looks like it has been deliberately targeted to cause the maximum amount
:05:13. > :05:31.of damage to David Cameron and his heartache. -- party. I am sure if
:05:32. > :05:35.Mark Reckless were to walk along here, many representatives would
:05:36. > :05:39.quite happily shoved him in the canal. They have had assurances from
:05:40. > :05:45.Mark Reckless that he would stay in the party and this can only damage
:05:46. > :05:49.the Conservatives. It is what we are all talking about at the moment and
:05:50. > :05:54.the Conservatives feel that after Labour had a downbeat conference
:05:55. > :05:58.last week, they have the opportunity with the economy improving to get
:05:59. > :06:03.some of the messages all that they wanted to. They are now having to
:06:04. > :06:07.fight this and try to get this out of the way before getting the
:06:08. > :06:12.message across. We shall have to leave it there. You look at death, I
:06:13. > :06:17.do not know of is a medical going on, but you'll do that you're
:06:18. > :06:24.standing on the canal! Thank you. I like to think I can walk on water
:06:25. > :06:32.but unfortunately I cannot. Now funny look at what is coming up.
:06:33. > :06:49.I am joined by Alex Massie and Isobel Lindsay. Let's talk a little
:06:50. > :06:59.bit about the political landscape. Opportunity for the Tories? David
:07:00. > :07:04.Mandel seemed chipper. The people defecting to UKIP are sort of cancer
:07:05. > :07:10.at the heart of the Tory party and nobody thinks he has that sort of
:07:11. > :07:14.problem for the Conservatives. The thing for the Tories in Scotland, do
:07:15. > :07:20.you measure their progress and shield of the vote or numbers seats.
:07:21. > :07:27.It seems to be possible that Tories will increase their vote by two or
:07:28. > :07:30.three points without dramatically increasing the number of seats. The
:07:31. > :07:35.party leadership says it is seats not share of the vote and by that
:07:36. > :07:40.standard that will be difficult to see progress. Presumably what they
:07:41. > :07:44.are thinking is hang on a minute, we have just had this referendum and
:07:45. > :07:50.everyone is saying Labour is in crisis but there's a problem the
:07:51. > :07:59.SNP, because in the heartland areas, there was heavy voting against
:08:00. > :08:04.independence. If I were a Tory strategist, given these are former
:08:05. > :08:10.Tory seats... The there's an opportunity and as you note the SNP
:08:11. > :08:13.heartlands are lapsed Tory areas. Never underestimate the ability of
:08:14. > :08:19.the Conservatives not to take advantage of it? It remains a
:08:20. > :08:23.branding issues so when you see that turnout matters as well, and the
:08:24. > :08:29.people who voted most decisively in favour of yes was the people who
:08:30. > :08:37.came of age politically during the Thatcher years. That remains a
:08:38. > :08:40.problem for the Conservatives. Tory ideas are much more popular in
:08:41. > :08:44.Scotland but I am not sure it will necessarily be as dramatic a
:08:45. > :08:51.unification of these things as they would like to think. I know you
:08:52. > :08:56.cannot speak for the SNP but I am curious as to what you make of the
:08:57. > :09:02.situation in the West of Scotland? Some areas like Glasgow voted yes
:09:03. > :09:09.but again that does not necessarily translate into a vote for the SNP in
:09:10. > :09:14.a general election, or does it? I think all bets are off. The only
:09:15. > :09:18.historical situation I can compare this to is probably 1967 after the
:09:19. > :09:24.Hamilton by-election where you had a huge increase in SNP membership.
:09:25. > :09:30.Immediately after that, I got elected for Dalmarnock in the city
:09:31. > :09:36.council elections but there was major gains across Labour seats. Of
:09:37. > :09:42.course, things went down, came up, went down, but it was a game changer
:09:43. > :09:47.in that period. I think this could very well be a game changer and that
:09:48. > :09:50.is going to be fascinating to see the general election campaign in
:09:51. > :09:56.Scotland because I think it is wide open. Everyone was assuming as usual
:09:57. > :10:01.it is a choice between Tory and Labour at Westminster so we have to
:10:02. > :10:07.vote labour whether we want to or not, but if the SNP can tell the
:10:08. > :10:10.story, if the narrative could provide a big block of SNP and
:10:11. > :10:18.greens, they could hold the balance of power at Westminster. Radical
:10:19. > :10:26.change of subject. Iraq and Syria. Are we now involved in the long-term
:10:27. > :10:29.effort? William Hague was saying there may be a return to the House
:10:30. > :10:40.of Commons to ask for permission to take military action in this area --
:10:41. > :10:44.in Syria with no endgame. You cannot have an endgame until the end of the
:10:45. > :10:47.game by definition and we do not know how or when that will be the
:10:48. > :10:52.case. There is a lot of nonsense being talked as though Britain is
:10:53. > :11:00.going to war in Iraq for the third time. This is a of half a dozen
:11:01. > :11:13.fighter jets, it is a police action from the year designed to assist the
:11:14. > :11:17.Iraqi forces combating ISIS. We are only involved in one part and it is
:11:18. > :11:22.important to date in a sense of perspective about the depth and
:11:23. > :11:24.longevity of British importance. There's a massive international
:11:25. > :11:35.effort and you can see contributions from the and Belgium. -- the
:11:36. > :11:40.Netherlands. There's a general recognition that ISIS a threat not
:11:41. > :11:46.just to the legion but in terms of the philosophy, the wider world.
:11:47. > :11:50.What do you make of this? Everything we have done in the Middle East and
:11:51. > :11:55.North Africa over the last half decade has been disaster after
:11:56. > :12:02.disaster. We have shown ourselves to be so ignorant and unaware of all
:12:03. > :12:06.the tensions. I actually was not opposed initially to the US, UN
:12:07. > :12:13.approved, of the initial air strikes in Libya which were supposed to just
:12:14. > :12:19.protect against Colonel Gaddafi's forces. And then what happened?
:12:20. > :12:26.America, France and the UK to get us an opportunity to bomb the place to
:12:27. > :12:32.create regime change and we are in a situation now where we have had to
:12:33. > :12:36.withdraw troops. If you were initially in favour of the reasons
:12:37. > :12:43.given, presumably you are in favour of the argument that this is a
:12:44. > :12:48.police action. That they are people, refugees in danger of being
:12:49. > :12:52.massacred by these Islamic state militants. Even if the only effect
:12:53. > :12:56.of a bombing campaign is within a mile to stop them advancing and
:12:57. > :13:02.killing these people, limited though that is, is it not worthwhile? One,
:13:03. > :13:10.I don't think it will work, but to, let's remember Syria. Are you saying
:13:11. > :13:15.the Assad regime has been less destructive than ISIS? It has killed
:13:16. > :13:21.many many more people. What we are doing now is propping him up. We had
:13:22. > :13:27.any situation with no simple answer but what I would say is why are we
:13:28. > :13:30.in there along with Saudi Arabia, which has been financing the
:13:31. > :13:36.jihadist and encouraging them and now they are out of control and they
:13:37. > :13:40.are not taking the lead, let them take the lead. We will have to leave
:13:41. > :13:46.it there. Thank you both very much indeed. That's all from us this
:13:47. > :13:48.week, back at the same time next week, until then, from all of,
:13:49. > :13:53.goodbye.