:00:36. > :00:44.After suggestions that David Cameron was diluting his EU negotiation
:00:45. > :00:47.demands, Downing Street insists he's still pushing for curbs to in-work
:00:48. > :00:56.But is there any evidence that the rest of Europe is listening?
:00:57. > :01:00.Jeremy Corbyn says Stop the War is "one of the most important
:01:01. > :01:06.And why all the fuss that he went to its Christmas fundraiser?
:01:07. > :01:08.Yvette Cooper - one-time Labour leadership contender -
:01:09. > :01:11.says Britain should be doing more for refugees and migrants
:01:12. > :01:17.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: This letter tells you that
:01:18. > :01:21.from now on a portion of your taxes will go to the Scottish government -
:01:22. > :01:48.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:49. > :01:51.Downing Street insists that David Cameron will still push
:01:52. > :01:54.for curbs on in-work benefits for EU migrants in the UK,
:01:55. > :01:58.despite earlier briefings to the contrary.
:01:59. > :02:01.The Prime Minister will head to a crucial summit later this week
:02:02. > :02:05.to make his case for a reformed British relationship with the EU.
:02:06. > :02:07.However, several newspapers, citing official guidance,
:02:08. > :02:11.report that Mr Cameron has failed to convince other European leaders
:02:12. > :02:17.and is already preparing a fallback to replace his original demand
:02:18. > :02:22.for a four-year wait for in-work benefits.
:02:23. > :02:24.The Sunday Times headline says "Prime Minister 'caves in'
:02:25. > :02:29.The Sunday Telegraph describes it as "Cameron's climbdown
:02:30. > :02:36.And the Independent on Sunday goes for the same metaphor,
:02:37. > :02:43.describing it as "Cameron's big EU climbdown".
:02:44. > :02:45.Let's speak now to Conservative MP Peter Lilley.
:02:46. > :02:48.He was a Cabinet minister in the Conservative governments
:02:49. > :02:55.of both Margaret Thatcher and John Major.
:02:56. > :03:00.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister is thought by many of your
:03:01. > :03:06.colleagues not to be asking for a lot, yet he might not even get what
:03:07. > :03:13.he's asking for. Could he sell a watered-down deal to his party? It
:03:14. > :03:20.is more a question of whether he can sell whatever comes out of it to the
:03:21. > :03:26.country. There are lots of Labour MPs who want to see democratic
:03:27. > :03:29.powers returned to this country from the European institutions. That's
:03:30. > :03:35.the key issue as far as I'm concerned. He will clearly get some
:03:36. > :03:39.things because a lot of this has been pre-negotiated, so he will get
:03:40. > :03:43.something to say about removing the phrase ever closer union, something
:03:44. > :03:49.to do with benefits, even if actually it is something we could do
:03:50. > :03:55.anyway ourselves, like apply a four-year wait to British citizens
:03:56. > :03:58.as well as foreigners. There will be something, the question is will it
:03:59. > :04:04.be substantial? Will it include a return of powers to this country to
:04:05. > :04:11.govern itself? What major powers is he asking to be repatriated?
:04:12. > :04:25.Publicly, there doesn't seem to be anything on the list, unless some
:04:26. > :04:29.change in relation to free movement of Labour is somewhere up his
:04:30. > :04:33.sleeve. I do occasionally hear rumours that he will come back with
:04:34. > :04:38.some genuine return of powers, and if he does I will be dancing on the
:04:39. > :04:46.rooftops. We have no evidence that's even part of the negotiation. That
:04:47. > :04:50.is certainly disappointing, it is rather a strange strategy not to ask
:04:51. > :04:57.for the principal thing we want and yet still hope to get it. Because we
:04:58. > :05:02.have, over a series of treaties which David Cameron and I voted
:05:03. > :05:11.against, conceded a whole lot of powers to Europe beyond what is
:05:12. > :05:15.necessary. The trading area requires some common lawmaking, but beyond
:05:16. > :05:21.that we concede a lot of powers. We would like to start the process of
:05:22. > :05:26.getting those powers back. If we cannot, we will be on a slippery
:05:27. > :05:31.slope to creating a single state. The reason we are in the position we
:05:32. > :05:38.are, having to renegotiate, is that the countries of the eurozone are on
:05:39. > :05:45.the road to creating a single state. There's never been a currency
:05:46. > :05:50.without a single state to run it. They are forced, because they have
:05:51. > :05:55.created this currency, without a government to make it work. The
:05:56. > :05:59.question is can we be outside that process, can removing the opposite
:06:00. > :06:05.direction and get powers back, or will we be sucked on the slipstream?
:06:06. > :06:10.If we cannot overcome the two doctrines of Europe that everybody
:06:11. > :06:14.is heading in the same direction, albeit at different speeds, and
:06:15. > :06:18.powers can only ever go to the central institutions and never come
:06:19. > :06:21.back to the States, if we cannot break those two doctrines as far as
:06:22. > :06:28.Britain is concerned, he will not really have achieved anything. I
:06:29. > :06:32.understand all of that. A quick final question, if he comes back
:06:33. > :06:40.with even less than he's asking for, would you vote to leave? If he
:06:41. > :06:47.doesn't come back with some increase in power to ourselves, I feel for
:06:48. > :06:54.the first time in my life I would be voting to leave. I voted to stay in
:06:55. > :06:57.1975 but I would be voting to leave in those circumstances.
:06:58. > :07:04.Tom, it is turning into a real mess for the Government, is it not? A
:07:05. > :07:08.huge mess. There was an exposer yesterday, of the 11pm call every
:07:09. > :07:18.night, coordinated with the Downing Street switchboard which the
:07:19. > :07:23.ministers have got to tune into. I can only imagine the horror that
:07:24. > :07:27.went on last night during the call, which still happens, over the
:07:28. > :07:32.headlines this morning. I think what's happened here is the
:07:33. > :07:38.four-year ban on migrants' benefit is dead. You think he's just not
:07:39. > :07:43.going to get it? It died I would say at least a month ago in the Chatham
:07:44. > :07:47.House speech. He said so in his speech saying, here is what I want,
:07:48. > :07:52.but by the way I will also accept what you choose to offer me. The
:07:53. > :07:56.papers reported the next day that it was dead in the water, so we are
:07:57. > :08:02.talking about the choreographing, how it happens and whether the Prime
:08:03. > :08:07.Minister himself withdraws it. Or somebody else might put something
:08:08. > :08:10.else on the table, doing the PM a favour, to bail him out and say if
:08:11. > :08:16.you don't want this how about that. Peter Lilley And, when I said can
:08:17. > :08:21.you sell this to your backbenchers comic said it is a problem for the
:08:22. > :08:24.other parties too but it is overwhelmingly a problem for the
:08:25. > :08:28.Conservatives and if he cannot achieve what is being asked for, I
:08:29. > :08:34.would suggest half the Parliamentary party in my not go with him on this.
:08:35. > :08:44.It is not the climb-down I would query, but the "big". He needed one
:08:45. > :08:48.totemic issue that looked like he was doing something about
:08:49. > :08:56.immigration. He couldn't look at the free movement of people or any kind
:08:57. > :09:01.of free movement cap. He couldn't tell nostrils any major power he is
:09:02. > :09:08.asking to be repatriated. It will be hard to make it look like he has
:09:09. > :09:14.come back with something so that people can say OK, that has changed
:09:15. > :09:19.my mind. If he gets one in February, can he have the referendum in June?
:09:20. > :09:24.I understand the Electoral Commission doesn't like the idea of
:09:25. > :09:28.a referendum that would overlap with the elections in May, and the risk
:09:29. > :09:30.in September is that we will have another summer migrant crisis and
:09:31. > :09:37.that would be a terrible atmosphere for those who want to stay in the
:09:38. > :09:41.European Union. There are a lot of hurdles, first you have got to get a
:09:42. > :09:44.deal in February that looks like a success. The reason they have done
:09:45. > :09:48.what they've done overnight is because it has been dragged down
:09:49. > :09:52.into a legal quagmire and David Cameron has got to have a
:09:53. > :09:56.conversation with his counterparts to set that entire renegotiation
:09:57. > :10:00.back on the right track. I know that some people in Brussels as saying he
:10:01. > :10:04.cannot get a deal by February, we will never get a deal, and if it
:10:05. > :10:18.slips into 2017 you won't get a deal then either. In June
:10:19. > :10:22.there is this tiny window because -- where you could practically hold a
:10:23. > :10:26.vote. But then as you say you've got the migrant crisis, which pops up
:10:27. > :10:31.over the summer. I'm told that dealing with the flow of migration
:10:32. > :10:35.from Turkey will make an enormous difference to the optics of how
:10:36. > :10:38.Europe is seen to be able to deal with the migration crisis. Even
:10:39. > :10:43.though that doesn't have a huge impact on UK migration from the rest
:10:44. > :10:47.of Europe, David Cameron's renegotiation depends on something
:10:48. > :10:49.truly out of his control. So you're telling me it depends on the Turks
:10:50. > :10:51.now. On Friday night Jeremy Corbyn met up
:10:52. > :10:54.with some old friends Nothing unusual in that,
:10:55. > :10:57.you might think, but this was a fundraising do
:10:58. > :10:59.for Stop The War Coalition, the anti-war protest group that
:11:00. > :11:02.Mr Corbyn chaired until his election And, in case you hadn't noticed,
:11:03. > :11:06.it caused a bit of a stir. It was the biggest mass
:11:07. > :11:13.demonstration in British history. The group that organised it,
:11:14. > :11:16.the Stop The War Coalition, had been founded a year or so before
:11:17. > :11:21.following the 9/11 attacks and George Bush's declaration
:11:22. > :11:25.of war on terror. Around a million people marched
:11:26. > :11:28.as Tony Blair prepared to send Among the speakers,
:11:29. > :11:33.a backbench Labour MP. Thousands more deaths in Iraq
:11:34. > :11:38.will not make things right, it will set off a spiral
:11:39. > :11:42.of conflict, of hate, One of the reasons for its success,
:11:43. > :11:49.I've always thought, is that everyone was united
:11:50. > :11:54.around one single issue. We never got bogged down
:11:55. > :11:57.in our political analyses of what we thought about
:11:58. > :12:01.Saddam Hussein or what we thought about this dictator or that,
:12:02. > :12:04.or how we thought the political We weren't there to offer solutions
:12:05. > :12:10.to other people's problems and tell them how we thought it should be,
:12:11. > :12:15.we were there to stop our government taking what we considered to be
:12:16. > :12:22.a very bad and negative step. But despite the broad support,
:12:23. > :12:32.the inner leadership has largely Stop The War's founding member
:12:33. > :12:36.and convener Lindsey German was a member of the Socialist
:12:37. > :12:39.Workers Party for over 30 years, Her partner, John Rees,
:12:40. > :12:43.who's also co-founder of Stop The War and was a leading
:12:44. > :12:46.figure in the SWP, he also He sits on the editorial board
:12:47. > :12:49.of Counterfire, a political organisation created
:12:50. > :12:51.after that SWP split. He also helped start up The People's
:12:52. > :12:53.Assembly Against Austerity, Which has been organising
:12:54. > :12:57.protests since 2013. He's often sparked controversy,
:12:58. > :12:59.reportedly writing in 2006, for example, that socialists should
:13:00. > :13:03.unconditionally stand with the oppressed
:13:04. > :13:06.against the oppressor, even if the people who run
:13:07. > :13:09.the oppressed country are undemocratic and persecute
:13:10. > :13:13.minorities, like Saddam Hussein. Andrew Murray was the Stop The War
:13:14. > :13:15.coalition chairman from He's a member of the Communist Party
:13:16. > :13:21.and chief of staff of In 2014 he spoke at the launch event
:13:22. > :13:26.of a campaign called Solidarity With The Antifascist
:13:27. > :13:29.Resistance In Ukraine, which supports anti-government
:13:30. > :13:32.rebels there. He took back the chairmanship again
:13:33. > :13:35.in September this year, taking over from Jeremy Corbyn,
:13:36. > :13:37.who'd held the post from 2011 As well as its elected officers,
:13:38. > :13:54.Stop The War has patrons including Labour MP Diane Abbott,
:13:55. > :13:57.George Galloway, the writer Tariq Ali, and Kamal Majid,
:13:58. > :13:59.a founding member of the Stalin Society, formed in 1991
:14:00. > :14:02.to defend Stalin and his work. The 2003 protest against the Iraq
:14:03. > :14:04.war, which took place here in Hyde Park, was the high point
:14:05. > :14:07.of Stop The War. The human rights activist
:14:08. > :14:11.Peter Tatchell never played an official role at Stop The War,
:14:12. > :14:14.though he has participated But this week he took a very public
:14:15. > :14:18.step back and claimed the organisation has
:14:19. > :14:24.lost its moral compass. The shortcomings in Stop The War
:14:25. > :14:27.are driven by basically about half a dozen people at the top,
:14:28. > :14:31.and those views increasingly are not shared by many of their long-time
:14:32. > :14:33.grass-roots supporters like me People are turned off
:14:34. > :14:39.by the sectarianism, by the selective opposition to war,
:14:40. > :14:42.and by the failure to speak out against human rights abuses
:14:43. > :14:47.by regimes that happen to be on the receiving end of US
:14:48. > :14:52.and British military intervention. Critics like Tatchell have accused
:14:53. > :14:56.Stop The War of trying to silence those whose views don't
:14:57. > :14:59.fit their own. Nothing will be achieved by trying
:15:00. > :15:03.to shout down speakers! This video shows a Stop The War
:15:04. > :15:06.official clashing with a protester during a rally about western
:15:07. > :15:09.policy in Iran in 2012, This meeting last month caused
:15:10. > :15:23.controversy when Syrians in the audience said
:15:24. > :15:28.they weren't allowed to speak. There is one reason there is no
:15:29. > :15:31.Syrian from this room on the platform and that's
:15:32. > :15:33.because they support intervention, and the meeting is
:15:34. > :15:35.against intervention. APPLAUSE What's really disturbing
:15:36. > :15:38.is the way in which Diane Abbott closed down the meeting rather
:15:39. > :15:40.than allow Syrian Democratic left wing and civil society
:15:41. > :15:47.activists to speak. It's given the impression
:15:48. > :15:49.that she shares the questionable politics of Stop The War
:15:50. > :15:56.on the issue of Syria. But Stop The War insists a Syrian
:15:57. > :16:00.contributor did ask a question from the floor of that meeting
:16:01. > :16:03.and have rubbished the suggestion they support those who Western
:16:04. > :16:06.governments oppose. Obviously, you will have seen
:16:07. > :16:10.in recent days Stop The War explaining that they were opposed
:16:11. > :16:14.to Russian intervention in Syria as well as British intervention,
:16:15. > :16:18.so they are evenhanded. The reason I think people may think
:16:19. > :16:23.that is because we are a campaign based in Britain and our campaigning
:16:24. > :16:27.is obviously overwhelmingly orientated towards changing our own
:16:28. > :16:30.Government's policy. Welcome to Islington
:16:31. > :16:33.in north London. In there is Jeremy Corbyn's
:16:34. > :16:36.constituency office. This building is also home
:16:37. > :16:39.to the Stop The War coalition, but it is the figurative proximity
:16:40. > :16:42.rather than the literal one that I spoke to a number of Labour MPs
:16:43. > :16:47.who voted against air One told me that he wasn't so much
:16:48. > :16:53.worried about Stop The War and the influence it may have
:16:54. > :16:56.on Jeremy Corbyn and policy, but more that Jeremy Corbyn
:16:57. > :16:59.simply shares their views. There's dissent at
:17:00. > :17:08.the grass roots too. Stop The War is not
:17:09. > :17:18.a Labour Party organisation. and probably continue
:17:19. > :17:19.to oppose the Labour Party. I don't believe they hold
:17:20. > :17:25.to the values of solidarity, We also spoke to a number of Labour
:17:26. > :17:41.MPs who were relaxed We're joined now from Leeds
:17:42. > :17:59.by the Labour MP, Richard Burgon. Morning, Andrew. The Communist Party
:18:00. > :18:01.of Britain, which has prominent members in stop the war, says
:18:02. > :18:07.attacks on stop the war are, quote, members in stop the war, says
:18:08. > :18:10.a systemic and vicious propaganda oi offensive designed to obscure
:18:11. > :18:13.British imperialism's agenda in conducting the bombing campaign in
:18:14. > :18:14.British imperialism's agenda in Syria. Do you agree with that? Well,
:18:15. > :18:18.first of all I think I'm in a good Syria. Do you agree with that? Well,
:18:19. > :18:20.position to answer some of these questions, pause I've only ever been
:18:21. > :18:25.a member of the Labour Party. questions, pause I've only ever been
:18:26. > :18:28.joined when I was 15. What I really want to focus on is not the members
:18:29. > :18:33.of small political parties who want to focus on is not the members
:18:34. > :18:38.be involved in Stop The War Coalition, but the tens of
:18:39. > :18:40.thousands, in fact they've got an e-mail list of 150,000 people, many
:18:41. > :18:43.of whom are not in e-mail list of 150,000 people, many
:18:44. > :18:47.party, many of whom are in the Labour Party. The chairman who has
:18:48. > :18:50.taken over from Mr Corbyn is a member of the Communist Party of
:18:51. > :18:55.Britain, so what's the answer to my question? I think the attacks on
:18:56. > :19:03.stop the war are proxy attacks on Jeremy Corbyn. We haven't had that
:19:04. > :19:09.previously. When Charles Kennedy was speaking against the Iraq war, which
:19:10. > :19:11.previously. When Charles Kennedy was 2 million people attended, Charles
:19:12. > :19:17.Kennedy wasn't attacked for that, and rightly so. But he wasn't a
:19:18. > :19:22.member of Stop The War Coalition. He spoke on the stop the war platform.
:19:23. > :19:27.But he wasn't a member? I'm not a member, there's a really important
:19:28. > :19:31.point here, it is right that people in democratic society express their
:19:32. > :19:36.views to MPs, march against things they think are incorrect. I do think
:19:37. > :19:39.the line and the leadership of the Stop The War Coalition hasn't
:19:40. > :19:42.changed in the 14 years since it was founded. What has changed is that
:19:43. > :19:46.Jeremy Corbyn has become leader of the Labour Party, so people in the
:19:47. > :19:50.media and elsewhere who wish to attack Jeremy Corbyn are using stop
:19:51. > :19:58.the war to do so. Of course it is not just the media, is it? It is not
:19:59. > :20:08.even the media. Labour MPses, Tristram Hunt, Stella Creasy, many
:20:09. > :20:11.more, they've attacked Stop the War Coalition and Jeremy Corbyn's
:20:12. > :20:14.support for it. I think the majority of Labour members agreed with Jeremy
:20:15. > :20:19.Corbyn on his analysis on whether or not we should agree to David
:20:20. > :20:23.Cameron's proposal to bomb Syria. But what do you say to their
:20:24. > :20:27.criticism of Mr Corbyn's continued association with Stop the War
:20:28. > :20:31.Coalition? I think they are mistaken. I think that stop the war,
:20:32. > :20:36.we've got to look at how stop the war has involved people from right
:20:37. > :20:41.across the political spectrum. When I was on that historical march in
:20:42. > :20:45.2003, there wasn't just the Lib Dem leader speaking but other people I
:20:46. > :20:49.spoke to, Conservative voters, so it is not just 57 varieties of
:20:50. > :20:56.Trotskyite groups that are involved. If it were the case it were merelily
:20:57. > :21:00.people on the ultraleft you wouldn't have 150,000 people involved or on
:21:01. > :21:04.the e-mail list. Who is not either a cop thirst, a Trotskyite or a
:21:05. > :21:09.Stalinist? Well, there are plenty of trade unions involved in the lip...
:21:10. > :21:13.Among the leadership, the people who lead this, whose names are
:21:14. > :21:16.associated with it, who doesn't Paul into that small hard left category?
:21:17. > :21:22.Well, it is a coalition, and that's the point of it. So give me another
:21:23. > :21:26.name that doesn't fall into that. Well, I wouldn't even know the full
:21:27. > :21:32.list of people on the board of stop the war, but what I do know is that
:21:33. > :21:34.there are people from trade unions supporting it, trade unions
:21:35. > :21:38.supporting it, probably in terms of the membership of Stop the War
:21:39. > :21:43.Coalition, the biggest composite of that are Labour Party members. But I
:21:44. > :21:47.do think this is a distraction of the democratic issue. We can't say
:21:48. > :21:51.that in this country being a member of a Stop the War Coalition
:21:52. > :21:54.campaign, campaigning against military interventions that were
:21:55. > :22:01.proven to be disastrous in Iraq and Libya is wrong. It is part of an
:22:02. > :22:06.open democratic process. People shouldn't be demonised for being
:22:07. > :22:10.part of it, or Jeremy Corbyn. I'm not doing that, what I'm trying to
:22:11. > :22:14.do is find out what stop the war really stands for and whether it is
:22:15. > :22:21.right to Jeremy Corbyn and other Labour people should be associated
:22:22. > :22:26.with it. They are had an article titled, Sociopaths United. The
:22:27. > :22:30.United States, Britain and their allies are no less sociopathic than
:22:31. > :22:35.the enemies they propose to hunt down. So British security forces are
:22:36. > :22:37.on a par with the beheaders, do you agree with that? I certainly don't
:22:38. > :22:42.agree with that. I think there've agree with that? I certainly don't
:22:43. > :22:47.been things published on blogs on the stop the war website which are
:22:48. > :22:50.essential wrong, which I wouldn't agree with and the vast majority of
:22:51. > :22:54.people who are members of the Stop the War Coalition wouldn't agree
:22:55. > :22:59.with. I was reading in the paper this morning that the management of
:23:00. > :23:02.the website of the stop the war has changed. If that shows that they are
:23:03. > :23:08.going to be more careful to ensure that the content of the website on
:23:09. > :23:12.every occasion mirrorst or reflects, sorry, the view of the leadership of
:23:13. > :23:22.the Stop the War Coalition, then that's a welcome move. Well, it is
:23:23. > :23:27.certainly, if it is such a splendid organisation, it has to delete lots
:23:28. > :23:37.of articles it has published. It blamed the Paris attacks on French
:23:38. > :23:41.policy, claimed that the threat to the Yazidis was largely mythical, in
:23:42. > :23:46.fact force. And published a poem that quotes a well known anti-Semite
:23:47. > :23:49.and Holocaust denier. All of that it has had to take down. Does that
:23:50. > :23:53.sound like a respectable organisation that the Labour Party
:23:54. > :23:58.should be associated with? Well, the views that you've uncovered aren't
:23:59. > :24:05.views that I or members of the Stop the War Coalition would agree with.
:24:06. > :24:08.But the big picture is this. In a coalition there are always sorts of
:24:09. > :24:11.small numbers of individuals who come out with unacceptable views.
:24:12. > :24:15.But the fact is I'm interested in the democratic point, in the 2
:24:16. > :24:20.million people that marched on 15th February 2003, in the thousands that
:24:21. > :24:23.protested against the intervention in Libya and intense the
:24:24. > :24:27.intervention in Syria. I'm not a pacifist but I think that the truth
:24:28. > :24:31.is that the Stop the War Coalition and the ordinary people from vicars
:24:32. > :24:36.to pensioners who marched against the war in Iraq, who marched against
:24:37. > :24:38.the intervention in Libya and have demonstrated against the
:24:39. > :24:41.intervention in Syria, they've got it right. Many of the people
:24:42. > :24:45.attacking Jeremy Corbyn and many of the people attacking the Stop the
:24:46. > :24:51.War Coalition have got it completely wrong. It is a topsy-turvy world we
:24:52. > :24:53.are in when attending Stop the War Coalition events is controversial.
:24:54. > :25:00.We are still pretending that Tony Blair and others got it right in
:25:01. > :25:05.Iraq. We haven't got much time Mr Burgon. Mr Corbyn stuck to his guns
:25:06. > :25:10.and went to the fundraiser. His spin doctor says the Labour Party is now
:25:11. > :25:16.slowly co hearing round Mr Corbyn's views, across a range of issues. Do
:25:17. > :25:20.you agree with that? I do. As I minced earlier, Jeremy Corbyn didn't
:25:21. > :25:25.instruct or order Labour MPs to vote against David Cameron's plan to bomb
:25:26. > :25:31.Syria. He gave them a free vote, and that that was the right thing to do.
:25:32. > :25:36.By a ratio of 2 to 1 Labour MPs agreed with Jeremy Corbyn's
:25:37. > :25:42.analysis, and by 2 to 1 members of the Shadow Cabinet agreed with Mr
:25:43. > :25:50.Corbyn. But on working tax credits, police cuts, issues such as ech
:25:51. > :25:55.attacking George Osborne's failed cuts and privatisationings the vast,
:25:56. > :26:02.of Labour MPs and members, and a lot of the public agree with him.
:26:03. > :26:06.Richard Burgon thank you for joining us and for persevering with the
:26:07. > :26:12.earpiece. I'm glad you stalk with it. Thank you. Take care. Bye.
:26:13. > :26:14.Yvette Cooper came third in the contest to become
:26:15. > :26:18.Her campaign only really came to life back in early September,
:26:19. > :26:21.when she became the first front rank UK politician to call for Britain
:26:22. > :26:23.to take in 10,000 refugees from the Syrian war.
:26:24. > :26:26.Now, in her new role as Chair of Labour's Refugees Taskforce,
:26:27. > :26:28.she's been on a fact-finding visit to the Jungle refugee
:26:29. > :26:43.6,000 people are currently living in what, in most generous terms,
:26:44. > :26:54.Yvette Cooper, a former Shadow Home Secretary,
:26:55. > :26:57.a Labour leadership contender, argued over the summer Britain
:26:58. > :26:59.should take more Syrian asylum seekers than
:27:00. > :27:06.Now a backbencher, she is returned as a guest of citizens UK not
:27:07. > :27:10.to argue we should fling open the doors but that the jungle
:27:11. > :27:13.was a problem nobody has tried to find a solution to.
:27:14. > :27:17.Why do we not have UNHCR here doing proper assessments of everybody?
:27:18. > :27:26.And therefore actually they need to go back through
:27:27. > :27:33.You've got to have a proper process to assess people's refugee status
:27:34. > :27:40.and at the moment that's not happening.
:27:41. > :27:43.That's the real big tragedy of here, the people have got stuck
:27:44. > :27:45.here in these awful conditions and there's no
:27:46. > :27:49.Some would call it hell, that's a little hyperbolic,
:27:50. > :27:57.It's really purgatory, since there's a real sense nobody
:27:58. > :28:00.is going anywhere, unless to climb on board a lorry and illegally
:28:01. > :28:05.And a camp unsuited to summer is preparing for a winter it's
:28:06. > :28:10.There's an argument which says, if you help refugees,
:28:11. > :28:12.then somehow that will create a crisis.
:28:13. > :28:32.No, the crisis is here and now, the crisis is happening.
:28:33. > :28:40.You've got to have a basic humanitarian aid in place.
:28:41. > :28:42.At the Medecins Sans Frontieres clinic on-site, the issue
:28:43. > :28:49.of the conditions and winter is a problem itself.
:28:50. > :28:52.The problem when we see the camp, it's very cold, the hygiene
:28:53. > :29:02.And what happens, the condition...the simple
:29:03. > :29:10.flu passes sometimes in the bronchal...and that's it.
:29:11. > :29:15.There are many women and children - yes, they are outnumbered -
:29:16. > :29:18.but they're housed in two sections of the camp we're not allowed
:29:19. > :29:21.to film in, though clearly some choose to live in other parts
:29:22. > :29:25.of the camp and walk the roads around.
:29:26. > :29:30.in the UK that is worrying some of the volunteers.
:29:31. > :29:32.So, there's a ten-year-old boy separated from his family and just
:29:33. > :29:41.There are eight-year-olds, nine-year-olds, ten-year-olds
:29:42. > :29:43.with family in the UK desperate to look after them,
:29:44. > :29:46.and come here to visit them and bring them things
:29:47. > :29:56.Do you suspect that people back home will see this and their natural
:29:57. > :29:58.humanity will say, "this is awful, that looks really dreadful,
:29:59. > :30:01.we still don't want lots of them to come"?
:30:02. > :30:11.The problem is you look around this and you think,
:30:12. > :30:14.how is this northern Europe, how can this be just a few miles
:30:15. > :30:18.How can this be what is happening in France?
:30:19. > :30:20.Yvette Cooper would be much happier if those minors were taken
:30:21. > :30:23.in with their families, and seems to be singing from a song
:30:24. > :30:27.sheet that says whether we take more refugees, fewer or none,
:30:28. > :30:30.it may well be a pressing question, but that the jungle in Calais
:30:31. > :30:44.Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. Should adults from this can be
:30:45. > :30:49.allowed into Britain? It depends on their circumstances. Most of them
:30:50. > :30:54.should be playing in France for asylum and that I think is what you
:30:55. > :31:00.would expect to happen. Some of them may not be refugees, some of them
:31:01. > :31:05.may have safe homes to go to and should do so. Clearly there's a lot
:31:06. > :31:10.of people there who have fled Syria, Afghanistan, who we know are fleeing
:31:11. > :31:17.conflict and persecution. There's a question about the children. We saw
:31:18. > :31:22.unaccompanied children. There are people traffickers, some cases where
:31:23. > :31:28.aid workers said they had families in Britain we were trying to reach.
:31:29. > :31:32.For example I spoke to a 15-year-old whose brother, his nearest relative
:31:33. > :31:39.is in Britain and he wants to join him. That's why he is in Calais.
:31:40. > :31:44.Should we let them in? We should have a process for him to be able to
:31:45. > :31:52.apply. We should be providing that sanctuary. I understand the children
:31:53. > :31:56.issue but I'm still not quite clear what your attitude is towards the
:31:57. > :32:02.adults there. Although a lot of people in this camp may have started
:32:03. > :32:06.as refugees, they are now in France. They are not in immediate danger of
:32:07. > :32:11.their lives so they now want to come to the UK because they think
:32:12. > :32:16.economic prospects are better here than in France. That makes their
:32:17. > :32:22.role economic migrants now. That's not the reality. They have no safe
:32:23. > :32:26.home at the moment, and I agree they should be playing right now and they
:32:27. > :32:33.should be assessed where they are. The French authorities should be
:32:34. > :32:38.doing a full assessment. So why are they not in there? Good question.
:32:39. > :32:43.Why are we leaving people in such awful conditions? If the French
:32:44. > :32:49.authorities cannot, we should get the UNHCR to come in and do a full
:32:50. > :32:53.assessment. There will also be people, I spoke for example to a
:32:54. > :32:59.single mother with two small children who had left Syria when her
:33:00. > :33:06.husband was killed in an Assad jail. She was trying to reach her father
:33:07. > :33:11.and brother, also in Britain. There should be a process for her to apply
:33:12. > :33:16.for sanctuary in Britain. If you had a fair system to apply, you might
:33:17. > :33:22.prevent people coming to Calais in the first place. Should we set up an
:33:23. > :33:27.asylum seeking vetting operation in Calais ourselves? We have a system
:33:28. > :33:34.the Government set up under pressure to take refugees from the camps in
:33:35. > :33:38.Syria. I'm talking about the camps in Calais. I agree but I'm saying we
:33:39. > :33:46.should prevent people coming to Calais in the first place. Once
:33:47. > :33:52.people have got to Calais, I think there is a case particularly for
:33:53. > :33:57.those children... We understand the children but I'm asking about adults
:33:58. > :34:01.because it is hard to know what your policy is on this. Should we start
:34:02. > :34:05.to say some of them are asylum seekers, the French are not doing
:34:06. > :34:27.their jobs properly, we will take them in once they go
:34:28. > :34:38.This refugees. Britain is taking photos and refugees a year. We
:34:39. > :34:49.should stop people coming and injured a sports in the 1st place.
:34:50. > :34:59.--4000 refugees. If we do not solve it it will get worse. By giving
:35:00. > :35:04.proper status to people here you will encourage more people to come.
:35:05. > :35:10.People will come anyway. The crisis is going to happen. There is viewed
:35:11. > :35:13.the government took with it were arguing we should not have search
:35:14. > :35:18.and rescue in the Mediterranean because that would force other
:35:19. > :35:23.people to come. I think that as a model. People have come. They are
:35:24. > :35:29.travelling across Europe. What you have to do is have a system that
:35:30. > :35:33.supports them. It is still not clear. Let's take over the million
:35:34. > :35:38.migrants who have made it into the EU this year. The German government,
:35:39. > :35:43.although taking most itself, try to spread the burden through member
:35:44. > :35:51.states. Should we volunteer quarter quest Mark at the beginning I said
:35:52. > :35:54.we should take 10,000 people. Why? The Germans are taking a lot more
:35:55. > :36:05.and the Swedish are taking a lot more, why only 10,000? That meant we
:36:06. > :36:08.would be talking about 10 families for every city or county across the
:36:09. > :36:13.country and I think the best way to do this is to work with local
:36:14. > :36:16.councils and communities and faith groups across the country and seeing
:36:17. > :36:21.how many refugees do you think you can support in each area? In Germany
:36:22. > :36:27.the labour market and housing are in different situations. They have a
:36:28. > :36:31.different demographic. 10,000 out of a million would be the British
:36:32. > :36:35.response? I think that would be a good thing to do. All countries will
:36:36. > :36:40.have to work together on this and is not a simple answer either so it is
:36:41. > :36:44.not just about what you do in terms of the number of refugees you give
:36:45. > :36:48.sanctuary to but also what you do to prevent people travelling and that
:36:49. > :36:51.is why you think we should be be uniting refugees by smack families.
:36:52. > :36:55.We have not talked about in the thing that you on that report is
:36:56. > :37:00.people living in terrible conditions with France and Britain being 2 of
:37:01. > :37:04.the most powerful countries in the world, you would've thought it is
:37:05. > :37:09.not beyond wit of those 2 countries to make sure there is proper
:37:10. > :37:15.humanitarian relief and sanitation and proper heating for people who
:37:16. > :37:16.will suffer not just from scabies but also terrible conditions in
:37:17. > :37:39.those camps. A colleague of yours said that your
:37:40. > :37:45.party is moving firmly towards the direction of Jeremy Corbyn. Do you
:37:46. > :37:49.agree? The challenge for the Labour Party is that we have an internal
:37:50. > :38:00.focus looking inwards as ourselves. We need to look out and we had good
:38:01. > :38:05.campaigns on a series of things and we cannot let the Tories off the
:38:06. > :38:08.hook. Is your party moving broadly in the direction of Jeremy Corbyn
:38:09. > :38:11.are not? I'm not sure what that means because we're having a debate
:38:12. > :38:14.on the part of the moment about what the policy should be the future and
:38:15. > :38:19.it is right we should do so. The trouble is we cannot make that
:38:20. > :38:23.debate just in words when the Tories are being let off the hook on Europe
:38:24. > :38:28.and on Heathrow and on tax credits and a series of things. I will try
:38:29. > :38:29.to make the question more clear next time.
:38:30. > :38:33.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:34. > :38:46.Coming up on the programme: This letter tells you that
:38:47. > :38:51.on a portion of your taxes will go to the Scottish government -
:38:52. > :38:57.What are the options open in Wednesday's budget?
:38:58. > :39:09.Next Wednesday we'll see the practical results
:39:10. > :39:11.of the Calman Commission which in 2012 decided that Scotland
:39:12. > :39:14.could increase or decrease income tax.
:39:15. > :39:17.It will be clear in this week's Holyrood budget what option
:39:18. > :39:19.the Finance Secretary John Swinney has chosen against the background
:39:20. > :39:24.And of course factored into that, we shouldn't ignore the looming
:39:25. > :39:43.In the last few weeks taxpayers across Scotland have received a
:39:44. > :39:48.brown envelope along with the Christmas post. The letter is from
:39:49. > :39:51.the Inland Revenue and it is informing us that from April next
:39:52. > :39:55.year some of our income tax will be paid to the Scottish Government.
:39:56. > :40:02.This is a change from the current system puts sees all tax going to
:40:03. > :40:10.the UK Government. I caught up with 1 person who has received his
:40:11. > :40:16.letter. I would like to know where the tax was getting distributed. I
:40:17. > :40:19.am on my way to Stirling University to meet an economist will hopefully
:40:20. > :40:31.answer some of Paul's questions and look at the option for John Swinney
:40:32. > :40:42.Winnie announces the the back decision next week. -- when he. Rate
:40:43. > :40:48.will be set where all income tax bands will be set so that will be a
:40:49. > :40:54.Scottish rate that applies across all of the tax bands. If he sets the
:40:55. > :41:05.Scottish rate at 10p, actually nothing will change. But if he sets
:41:06. > :41:11.it at 12p, the basic would go up to 22p and higher rate would go from
:41:12. > :41:24.40p to 42p and additional rate would go from 45p to 47p. -- the basic
:41:25. > :41:29.would go up from 20p to 22p. Speaking ahead of the budget,
:41:30. > :41:33.Finance Secretary John Swinney says tough choices have to be made
:41:34. > :41:37.because of the 12% cut his finances by the UK Government that he gave no
:41:38. > :41:42.indication what he might do with his new powers over income tax. What I
:41:43. > :41:47.will have to do for the 1st time is set to Scottish rate of income tax.
:41:48. > :41:51.That is an essential part of the budget process within Scotland and
:41:52. > :41:54.those decisions will be set out to Parliament on Wednesday but we take
:41:55. > :41:57.those decisions against a very difficult backdrop of the financial
:41:58. > :42:00.reductions that have come from the UK Government against the
:42:01. > :42:05.determination of the Scottish film to make sure that we take every step
:42:06. > :42:09.we possibly can do to protect the vulnerable public services which
:42:10. > :42:12.matter to the people of our country. The political reality is this budget
:42:13. > :42:18.is 5 months ahead of a Scottish parliamentary election. I would
:42:19. > :42:24.expect the opposition parties to say you have those new powers and those
:42:25. > :42:28.new opportunities. Why not doing more with them? In that sense
:42:29. > :42:32.bracelet tit-for-tat blame game as usual but the political reality is
:42:33. > :42:36.that this is a pre-election budget and therefore we should not expect
:42:37. > :42:40.too much in the way of dramatic developments. It is traditional in
:42:41. > :42:47.these situations to save the Rabbit? If that is a rabbit it will be a
:42:48. > :42:55.very bunny indeed. -- where is the Rabbit? Next Wednesday will find out
:42:56. > :42:59.if John Swinney is more Scrooge than Santa.
:43:00. > :43:02.Joining me now is SNP MSP Kenneth Gibson, who is convenor
:43:03. > :43:04.of the Fiscal Commission and Labour MSP Jackie Baillie,
:43:05. > :43:06.who is the party's spokesperson on public services and wealth
:43:07. > :43:18.I want to ask about a couple things that have come up today such as the
:43:19. > :43:22.Forth Bridge. The new allegation that very heavy vehicles have been
:43:23. > :43:27.stopped from going on for some time, the implication being they knew
:43:28. > :43:30.there was a problem. I think as each day passes that is another
:43:31. > :43:34.revelation and I do think it is time that the SNP government to come
:43:35. > :43:37.clean will stop 1st we had the question of whether maintenance
:43:38. > :43:41.contracts were cancelled and not and then we hear that was a 59% cut in
:43:42. > :43:47.the budget and now we hear today about this. What do you want the
:43:48. > :43:54.government to do what it is not doing already? I think they need to
:43:55. > :44:00.be transparent. You only need to listen to people in phone in
:44:01. > :44:04.programmes to understand how agitated about this. We do need to
:44:05. > :44:06.learn from our mistakes and we did with the Scottish treatment to put
:44:07. > :44:11.everything in the public domain and be transparent and not to engage in
:44:12. > :44:14.ever-increasing amount spent to hide the truth from people about cut
:44:15. > :44:20.budgets and maintenance contracts. Would you accept, Kenneth Gibson,
:44:21. > :44:27.that whatever the rights and wrongs of it, this has not been handled
:44:28. > :44:34.very well? It has not been handled well by the Scottish Government? I
:44:35. > :44:37.think this is bound to happen and such an emotive issue which has
:44:38. > :44:41.disrupted tens of thousands of people's lives. We have seen a lot
:44:42. > :44:45.of transparency and the Minister made a statement to Parliament which
:44:46. > :44:48.were discussed for 20 minutes of First Minister 's questions. It
:44:49. > :44:53.seemed to be contradicted by what he said on the radio the next morning.
:44:54. > :44:58.To be fair it is a movable feast and new things are coming out. If Jackie
:44:59. > :45:03.Baillie said something in Parliament 1 day and is something else on radio
:45:04. > :45:09.the next day you would not just say I take my hat off to her. You would
:45:10. > :45:16.say, come on what is going on? I think everything has been put in the
:45:17. > :45:20.public domain. It clearly has not. Derek Mackay has been frank about
:45:21. > :45:22.what the difficulties are in the First Minister made this crystal
:45:23. > :45:25.clear that this at a problem which was fined a few weeks ago and not
:45:26. > :45:31.been picked up on previous maintenance because it was only a
:45:32. > :45:37.new floor in the bridge itself that was picked up. I also wanted to ask
:45:38. > :45:39.about Donald Trump. We learned this morning that Alex Salmond has signed
:45:40. > :45:43.a petition saying he should be banned from entering Britain. Is
:45:44. > :45:49.that something you would go along with? A number of my SNP colleagues
:45:50. > :45:53.and a number of Labour colleagues support that point of view. I do not
:45:54. > :46:00.support the point of view and I think that when Nick Griffin
:46:01. > :46:03.appeared in question time some years ago a lot of people wanted him
:46:04. > :46:10.banned but when it came on he made such a fool of itself it undermined
:46:11. > :46:14.a lot of the support the BNP had. I'm not sure that is the way
:46:15. > :46:19.forward. Whatever you think of his ideas has
:46:20. > :46:22.forward. Whatever you think of his makes his investments but is not
:46:23. > :46:27.allowed to visit them or he sells off to someone else? I do not
:46:28. > :46:29.believe it should be a ban on Mr Trump coming to the UK. What do you
:46:30. > :46:35.think of that? I don't Trump coming to the UK. What do you
:46:36. > :46:37.what he Trump coming to the UK. What do you
:46:38. > :46:37.reprehensible and people have been very clear about that and people are
:46:38. > :46:45.made our views known. very clear about that and people are
:46:46. > :46:52.imaginable is that that the system ought chance that this man could be
:46:53. > :47:01.the president of the United States. -- I find it unimaginable there is
:47:02. > :47:08.that ought chance. -- remote. John Swinney will have too set a rate of
:47:09. > :47:11.income tax. It has delayed getting this point because of reality he
:47:12. > :47:17.will do anything different to what he's doing already? The Finance
:47:18. > :47:22.committee a lot of lot of evidence right across the board from the
:47:23. > :47:25.to the CBI to the Scottish council for voluntary organisations and all
:47:26. > :47:28.of the muster the same thing which is that in the 1st year of this tax
:47:29. > :47:32.they do not see this should be any change. I do not know whether John
:47:33. > :47:37.Swinney will increase taxes are lower them or give them the same.
:47:38. > :47:43.Would you be disappointed of nothing happened? Not necessarily because
:47:44. > :47:48.people say let's have some stability the 1st year. A lot of people
:47:49. > :47:51.watching would ask if this is the Scottish National party, the same
:47:52. > :47:57.people who demand power after power after power and then when they are
:47:58. > :48:02.given powers to and around and say, we want more powers but these once
:48:03. > :48:09.you have just given us, you do we do not want to use them? The reality is
:48:10. > :48:15.we cannot even change the bandings of the flesh at this stage. If it
:48:16. > :48:18.goes up it is the same for everybody. If increased it for
:48:19. > :48:21.higher taxpayers it would be the same for lower taxpayers. The people
:48:22. > :48:26.who are vastly out there who run businesses and the trade unions,
:48:27. > :48:37.etc. They same for the 1st year letters keep it as it is. -- lets
:48:38. > :48:45.keep visitors. -- as it is. People would ask you why you do not put
:48:46. > :48:52.taxes up to counter the steady policies of the Conservative
:48:53. > :48:56.government. People with low wages have had pay rises above inflation
:48:57. > :48:59.for a few years and this is not the time to increased taxation which
:49:00. > :49:03.would be across the board. He believes some money in their pockets
:49:04. > :49:07.and this is not the time to do it. We brought in attacks for land and
:49:08. > :49:13.buildings last year which was a huge difference to what the United
:49:14. > :49:17.Kingdom. Jackie Baillie, you're quoted today saying that Scottish
:49:18. > :49:23.Labour will offer real alternative to a sedative at different decisions
:49:24. > :49:40.on tax to the Tories and to the SNP. -- on a steady. -- is. --Austerity.
:49:41. > :49:45.There is no comprehensive spending review and we believe it should be a
:49:46. > :49:51.budget for the medium to long term. We see doing the sensitive sort of
:49:52. > :49:56.thing that Kenny Gibson was talking about between the bands. We have
:49:57. > :50:05.said we would introduce a 50p top rate of income tax and we would not
:50:06. > :50:13.take a cut in passenger transport duty.
:50:14. > :50:20.This was supposedly because you were not going to have people suffering
:50:21. > :50:26.from the tax credit cuts that George Osborne was going to make but he has
:50:27. > :50:34.not made those cuts. He has delayed those cuts, let's be clear about
:50:35. > :50:38.that. Are you saying that people on the existing system will not be
:50:39. > :50:42.affected but when new people come on they may get less than they would
:50:43. > :50:47.have done in the current system. Are you saying that the Labour
:50:48. > :50:52.government in Scotland would mitigate all the effects of that new
:50:53. > :50:55.system? We would need to examine the system but we have already
:50:56. > :50:59.identified financial leaders we reduce to ensure we have an
:51:00. > :51:06.anti-steady budget. The SNP have been silent on what budgets they
:51:07. > :51:11.would bring in. We have been seeing a budget for an election and not for
:51:12. > :51:16.the long-term. With new powers over taxation and welfare people expect
:51:17. > :51:22.cuts. What would you do if you read John Swinney next week? He has a
:51:23. > :51:25.number of options. What rate of tax would you said? We do not think
:51:26. > :51:32.there should be a differential on tax at this time. You hit a done as
:51:33. > :51:38.much as you do the wealthiest. What we are saying is there is a big
:51:39. > :51:41.debate to happen about the kind of tax powers we want to see in the
:51:42. > :51:47.future and hope we reduce them. We are prepared to set out in the
:51:48. > :51:51.agenda and the SNP are being silent. John Swinney is already seeing the
:51:52. > :51:56.terrible decisions you will have to make because of this dreadful Tory
:51:57. > :52:04.austerity. What is this government cut? If you look at it, we have not
:52:05. > :52:10.enabled to spend as much on local government services, 60,000 people
:52:11. > :52:16.have left the. A lot of the services we would like to deliver our not
:52:17. > :52:20.being delivered. Like what? We would like to deliver better health
:52:21. > :52:24.services than we have. We would like to make significant improvements.
:52:25. > :52:28.Only a year ago you were asking people to vote to leave the UK
:52:29. > :52:34.because of this dreadful Tory austerity policy. What are these
:52:35. > :52:40.huge cut? What are they? You will see this week eight ?300 million...
:52:41. > :52:44.Everyone would like to spend more money on the NHS but what are these
:52:45. > :52:49.cuts, what would people have got if it was not for posterity? What tools
:52:50. > :52:53.are not getting prepared, schools are not being billed as quickly as
:52:54. > :52:59.they would have, bridges. I thought you claimed your school programme
:53:00. > :53:06.was a triumph of capital spending. Name a skill that has not been
:53:07. > :53:11.built. -- school. If you want to look at schools even in my own
:53:12. > :53:17.constituency the Gaelic Academy could have in-built earlier with the
:53:18. > :53:24.money to build it and that is being built now. We read this austerity
:53:25. > :53:32.then? Scotland has a 27% cut on capital funding if you're trying to
:53:33. > :53:39.say that has now affect. There is a growth of ?500 million. It is 70%.
:53:40. > :53:45.-- 17. What do you remember
:53:46. > :53:46.about this year? Was there one political event
:53:47. > :53:49.that stood out for you? Hundreds of thousands of Syrian
:53:50. > :53:54.refugees crossing the Mediterranean? As we approach the year end
:53:55. > :54:18.of 2015, here's the A to Z No, no, no, order. The house will
:54:19. > :55:04.show it's a PC Asian in a way other than flapping. -- its appreciation.
:55:05. > :55:26.Hello. Good afternoon. We love you, Charles.
:55:27. > :55:33.Taking a desk, having a a go, that pumps me up and if I am
:55:34. > :55:41.getting lively about it that is because I feel lively. -- taking a
:55:42. > :55:47.risk. Our basic pleasures for a plan for working people. Shall I tell you
:55:48. > :55:55.something about JCB? They made their tell got. -- made this helicopter.
:55:56. > :56:08.Right across this campaign it is about making...
:56:09. > :56:11.LAUGHTER We are not going to have a
:56:12. > :56:18.coalition, we are not going to have a deal. Will you put to bed rumours
:56:19. > :56:23.that you plan to cut child tax credit and respect child benefit to
:56:24. > :56:29.two children? I do not want to do that. That is ludicrous you are
:56:30. > :56:36.lying. Why would we ever believe anything else you say? Am I tough
:56:37. > :56:48.enough? Hell, yes, I am tough enough! # it's the final countdown.
:56:49. > :56:59.# for you I have two listed all
:57:00. > :57:25.because the writing's on the wall. # I will be resigning as leader of the
:57:26. > :57:27.Liberal Democrats. Now it is time for someone else to take forward the
:57:28. > :57:52.leadership of this party. # this is the industry, this is the
:57:53. > :57:59.industry # why have you got a tie on? You at any job. -- I have you
:58:00. > :58:31.not 40 tie on? An elected Labour and Liberal lords
:58:32. > :58:52.have voted down a matter passed by the elected House of Commons. #
:58:53. > :58:56.don't believe me just watch! # but you have oil? Yes. Maybe invade you?
:58:57. > :59:14.You don't usually ask permission. This is an exit poll very carefully
:59:15. > :59:22.calculated. He returns. Ten o'clock and we are saying the Conservatives
:59:23. > :59:24.are the largest party. If this exit poll is right I will publicly eat my
:59:25. > :59:39.hat. English votes for English issues,
:59:40. > :59:49.terribly simple. It is an incomprehensible mess. I will oppose
:59:50. > :59:58.it until my dying day. The wealthier powers of the Smith commission. Fall
:59:59. > :00:00.short subject to negotiation and agreement. No vetoes. I will believe
:00:01. > :00:49.it when I see it. SNP MPs will vote against air
:00:50. > :00:52.strikes in the House of Commons. Public opinion is moving
:00:53. > :00:59.increasingly against what I believed to be an ill thought out rush to
:01:00. > :01:02.war. Do we go after these carers in their heartlands where they are
:01:03. > :01:10.plotting to kill British people or do we sit back and wait for them to
:01:11. > :01:20.attack us? # here I go again on my own. # # going down the only road
:01:21. > :01:34.I've ever known. # like a drifter I was born to walk alone. # focus on
:01:35. > :02:00.me. # Conservative Party candidate 18,848.
:02:01. > :02:05.You will be a leadership election for the next leader of UK inset
:02:06. > :02:08.Amber and I will consider over the course of this summer whether to put
:02:09. > :02:14.my name forward to do that job again. He is standing down but he
:02:15. > :02:20.may stand again? When is toast not post? # sisters are doing it for
:02:21. > :02:46.themselves. # because I am an MP, not only am I
:02:47. > :02:49.the youngest but I am now also the only 20-year-old in the Hall of the
:02:50. > :03:05.UK that the Chancellor was prepared to help with housing.
:03:06. > :03:10.I'm joined by a trio of commentators.
:03:11. > :03:12.Severin Carrell is the Guardian's Scotland correspondent,
:03:13. > :03:14.Katie Grant is a journalist and author and Paul McNamee
:03:15. > :03:30.I watched that earlier on and what struck me more than usual was the
:03:31. > :03:35.earlier it seemed a long time. The relatives because everyone has
:03:36. > :03:39.changed so much no one expected the Conservative government on Labour in
:03:40. > :03:45.Scotland to be completely wipe out? It has been an enormous year but I
:03:46. > :03:50.am reminded that once I looked into the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the year
:03:51. > :03:54.2066 -- 1066 it said nothing much happened this year. I wonder if the
:03:55. > :04:00.Pope will look back and see it as we see it. The thing that struck me
:04:01. > :04:05.most was how many successful female politicians there where. This has in
:04:06. > :04:11.the year of the woman politician. Nicola Sturgeon, Kezia Dugdale, Ruth
:04:12. > :04:16.Davidson. Even with Yvette Cooper it would have in a lovely hat-trick. It
:04:17. > :04:22.has been a Europe with the domestic and global have walloped into each
:04:23. > :04:27.other and so we have an half with our eyes firmly focused on Syria and
:04:28. > :04:31.half with our eyes firmly focused on seismic events at home and it is not
:04:32. > :04:38.often a year that we get so much change in EU both abroad and here.
:04:39. > :04:41.Do you think it has been seismic? Yes. I think it has been an
:04:42. > :04:47.extraordinary year. I think when historians come to look back over
:04:48. > :04:50.this period of our history they will see 2015 as a more important year
:04:51. > :04:56.for Scotland than 2014 because we are now in an SNP either. This could
:04:57. > :05:02.the anti-pork defining moment. Not truly geologically but in the narrow
:05:03. > :05:07.frame of life we now have the generational shift. A number of SNP
:05:08. > :05:12.'s. The number they are on the cusp of having a second majority
:05:13. > :05:15.government at Holyrood. The sense in which the opposition parties as well
:05:16. > :05:21.are now so diminished by the shift in what happened in May 2015I think
:05:22. > :05:28.actually is going to define the next couple of generations. Whatever the
:05:29. > :05:31.outcome of May 2016, the SNP will be in power for the next five years in
:05:32. > :05:35.Scotland. The outcome could be different but based on the old know
:05:36. > :05:40.the difference we are looking at next meet is only any couple of
:05:41. > :05:48.seats even the for the SNP which I think is hugely significant. It is.
:05:49. > :05:53.I think it is always impossible when you look back in the year to single
:05:54. > :05:59.out 1 particular point. Especially when you look back at a film like
:06:00. > :06:09.that you wonder what is the key moment when the international and
:06:10. > :06:21.domestic worlds came together such as the C Heddle attack.
:06:22. > :06:33.--Charlie Hebdo. Then you can look at me and when David Dimbleby read
:06:34. > :06:42.out the exit poll. -- look at the month of May. There was a very
:06:43. > :06:52.dramatic moment earlier in the morning when John Curtis said it
:06:53. > :07:03.could be a Conservative majority. --Curtice. I see that as a big
:07:04. > :07:11.moment for us but not in the Globe. Governments come and governments
:07:12. > :07:13.goal but it is not as if they have such a stonking majority the
:07:14. > :07:18.Conservatives could do as they like. And then overtaken by events as
:07:19. > :07:26.always. I was thinking about what you were saying about the SNP and
:07:27. > :07:30.the Forth Road Bridge might loom very large and growing larger every
:07:31. > :07:35.day because closure of the bridge is something affects Scotland very
:07:36. > :07:39.particularly and it affects people very directly every morning so I
:07:40. > :07:44.wonder if maybe 7th, of course I think the posters have been wrong in
:07:45. > :07:48.the past, but there will be an SNP majority, but I think these sort of
:07:49. > :07:57.seemingly quite small events can suddenly escalate and derail whole
:07:58. > :08:03.political leaders. I wonder. Clearly the opposition parties to be SNP
:08:04. > :08:06.would love the bridge to be a giant example of the narrative they are
:08:07. > :08:11.trying to create which is that the SNP go on about independence but but
:08:12. > :08:14.meanwhile back in the backyard everything is going to rack and ruin
:08:15. > :08:21.because they have not been paying attention. Is the even the slightest
:08:22. > :08:25.chance that narrative would work? I think 1 of the really interesting
:08:26. > :08:28.political challenges for the opposition parties is that for a lot
:08:29. > :08:32.of the Scottish electorate that appears to be this disconnect
:08:33. > :08:34.between the performance on day-to-day domestic policies that
:08:35. > :08:40.the Scottish garment is there to fulfil and the way the SNP opinion
:08:41. > :08:48.poll rating appears to be so buoyant. That is no connection they
:08:49. > :08:51.make between it is Nicola Sturgeon who is responsible but surely we
:08:52. > :08:55.should be going for an alternative now. You may find that the bridge
:08:56. > :08:59.that it is an incremental thing that adds to the crisis over the NHS and
:09:00. > :09:02.the crisis in education spending and so on and so forth and people start
:09:03. > :09:07.to think maybe they are not up to the job. But the problem for the
:09:08. > :09:10.opposition parties is that they have to appear to be a credible
:09:11. > :09:14.alternative and as things currently stand sturgeon is still the
:09:15. > :09:17.pre-eminent politician in Scotland and the Forth Road Bridge. To really
:09:18. > :09:32.annoy thousands of voters in 5 will be enough to bridge that gap? In the
:09:33. > :09:35.Kingdom of Fife. Labour are also supposedly involved in this
:09:36. > :09:41.regeneration narrative. How do you think that is going Christmas not
:09:42. > :09:44.terrifically well. Jeremy Corbyn says it is going swimmingly because
:09:45. > :09:51.he is just won an election and people say he would have done very
:09:52. > :09:57.badly and if not lose a safe Labour seat. Jeremy carbon came out rather
:09:58. > :10:01.well and he managed to get a set amount of people who would vote
:10:02. > :10:07.Labour to vote for him but that does not necessarily reflect on people in
:10:08. > :10:14.the wider sense. If he had lost in Oldham, the disaster would been
:10:15. > :10:19.told. That is no way they would have lost that matter who's in charge to
:10:20. > :10:23.think is a false reading saying that because Labour won the leadership of
:10:24. > :10:37.Gerry Corbyn is going well. I think Casey Dugdale is a good young reader
:10:38. > :10:40.--Kezia. -- leader. But Ruth Davison seems to clips and seems to be the
:10:41. > :10:45.rising voice of an alternative point of view and talking about women
:10:46. > :10:51.becoming much more dominant this year, she will have an incredible
:10:52. > :10:54.role to play in 2016 running up to Hollywood elections. If she can
:10:55. > :11:09.galvanise a particular vote the change in Scotland could be marked.
:11:10. > :11:19.I was just thinking that maybe the big S this year 's scrutiny. Corbyn
:11:20. > :11:23.supporters would say you have underestimated us. You keep saying
:11:24. > :11:27.it will be a disaster and it is not. It is not a disaster yet because
:11:28. > :11:31.there has not really been anything to be as acid about. I agree with
:11:32. > :11:34.Paul, I do not see how they could have lost the Oldham by-election
:11:35. > :11:38.although I do remember that he was not involve much in it. I think the
:11:39. > :11:43.great test for the Labour Party is still to come. We have just seen
:11:44. > :11:50.Jeremy carbon go to the stop the War Christmas party and I think actually
:11:51. > :11:54.that is a sort of echo chamber for a Jeremy Corbyn which is quite
:11:55. > :11:57.dangerous for him that he will be buoyed up by his own supporters and
:11:58. > :12:02.take very little notice of what is going on the rest of the country.
:12:03. > :12:09.Again, playing devils advocate, his supporters would say people are
:12:10. > :12:14.getting this wrong. For example, in splits over Syria, the issue for a
:12:15. > :12:18.lot of people was not about whether that would Labour splits over Syria,
:12:19. > :12:22.it is nice that that is a proper debate about this for once and
:12:23. > :12:29.frankly we do not care. We cared about Syria but not the splits. I
:12:30. > :12:32.think that is true but do people really care about Syria when the
:12:33. > :12:39.care most about the economy and jobs and proper management and thinks the
:12:40. > :12:44.government should be doing Gate today. Syria for most voters are
:12:45. > :12:49.still apart from their everyday concerns. What Labour and the Carbon
:12:50. > :12:53.leadership team have to accept is that they have challenges right in
:12:54. > :12:56.front of them such as the May elections in Scotland and Wales and
:12:57. > :13:02.local government downside. The report from a lot of Labour MSPs in
:13:03. > :13:07.Scotland is that Corbyn is not sufficiently attractive to a lot of
:13:08. > :13:11.Labour voters they need to take back on board. On the doorstop they are
:13:12. > :13:22.hearing voters saying that they are not sure Corbyn is the man for us.
:13:23. > :13:29.They think they might be able to finally achieve liftoff in this
:13:30. > :13:32.election in May, the Conservatives. I do not think the world because
:13:33. > :13:35.when it comes to putting across the box people will still be resistant
:13:36. > :13:41.but Ruth Davison has done really good job at making the Conservatives
:13:42. > :13:44.look nice, if that is possible word. I think she herself her manner is a
:13:45. > :13:48.very good advertisement for them. That's all from the us
:13:49. > :13:51.this week and for 2015.