10/01/2016

:00:35. > :00:44.David Cameron says he's hopeful for a deal next month

:00:45. > :00:47.on a new relationship between Britain and the European Union.

:00:48. > :00:50.Is momentum building for a referendum this summer?

:00:51. > :00:53.He sacked two ministers prompting three to resign in protest -

:00:54. > :00:56.but is Jeremy Corbyn in a more powerful position at the end

:00:57. > :01:02.of a tumultuous week for the Labour Party?

:01:03. > :01:06.We'll speak to Shadow Cabinet Minister Lucy Powell.

:01:07. > :01:10.Junior doctors defy Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and say

:01:11. > :01:12.they will go ahead with their strike, starting Tuesday.

:01:13. > :01:15.What's prompted their first walkout in 40 years?

:01:16. > :01:20.And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:21. > :01:28.If the Prime Minister's optimism over the EU referendum shared by

:01:29. > :01:35.Labour and other politicians here? We're ten days into 2016 and we've

:01:36. > :01:39.not sacked them and they've not resigned yet, so with me,

:01:40. > :01:43.the best and the brightest political panel in the business, Nick Watt,

:01:44. > :01:50.Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So David Cameron toured Europe last

:01:51. > :01:52.week continuing his re-negotiation of Britain's EU membership

:01:53. > :01:54.ahead of the referendum. He knows that whatever he comes back

:01:55. > :01:57.with will not persuade So they will be free

:01:58. > :02:02.to campaign for an exit. But this morning the Prime Minister

:02:03. > :02:05.made it clearer than ever that he would be campaigning

:02:06. > :02:15.to stay in the EU. My aim is clear, the best of both

:02:16. > :02:20.worlds for Britain, the massive prize of sorting out what frustrates

:02:21. > :02:24.us about Europe, but staying in a reformed Europe. The prize is closer

:02:25. > :02:28.than it was and I will work around the clock to get that done. The

:02:29. > :02:32.government will not be neutral about this issue with people on one side

:02:33. > :02:37.or the other, my intention is that at the conclusion of the

:02:38. > :02:41.negotiation, the Cabinet reaches a clear recommendation for the British

:02:42. > :02:45.people on what we will do. I hope that we'll be staying in a reformed

:02:46. > :02:50.European Union, because I have got a good negotiation for Britain. At

:02:51. > :03:03.that point, clear government position, members of the

:03:04. > :03:05.Cabinet, ministers with long-standing, long-held views on a

:03:06. > :03:06.different basis, they will be able to campaign.

:03:07. > :03:08.And we're joined now by the eurosceptic Conservative MP,

:03:09. > :03:19.Who should lead the out campaign? I do not think personalities matter.

:03:20. > :03:24.The Prime Minister matters because he has a big personality. For the

:03:25. > :03:29.out campaign, you have Nigella Lawson, other people. No doubt you

:03:30. > :03:33.will have four five Cabinet ministers. Does it not need to be a

:03:34. > :03:39.better known public figure than Nigel Lawson, who was Chancellor in

:03:40. > :03:43.the 1980s, or Chris Grayling or even yourself? No, people will not make

:03:44. > :03:45.their decision on the basis of which pretty face is leading the campaign.

:03:46. > :03:47.their decision on the basis of which They will make it on one basis

:03:48. > :03:52.alone, will it be good for my job or They will make it on one basis

:03:53. > :03:56.bad for my job? The argument They will make it on one basis

:03:57. > :04:02.other bogus numbers that come up, They will make it on one basis

:04:03. > :04:04.will be about my job, is my industry protected? Boris Johnson, Theresa

:04:05. > :04:08.May? There will be lots protected? Boris Johnson, Theresa

:04:09. > :04:13.in Westminster, should Boris lead, it will not matter. What matters is

:04:14. > :04:17.the it will not matter. What matters is

:04:18. > :04:23.be decided before the conclusion of the negotiation. Nigel Farage has

:04:24. > :04:25.had a torrid time since the general election, culminating in the

:04:26. > :04:33.assassination attempt that apparently was not. Is he a

:04:34. > :04:38.liability to the leave campaign? No, probably not. He has about 3 million

:04:39. > :04:42.people who are supporting him. Some of them in his party? He is his

:04:43. > :04:48.party, to a large extent. I do not of them in his party? He is his

:04:49. > :04:51.think is a liability, everyone knows what he and his party are like.

:04:52. > :04:52.think is a liability, everyone knows he got lots of credibility? It has

:04:53. > :04:56.slipped backwards he got lots of credibility? It has

:04:57. > :05:01.election. I do not think the parties matter. The personalities do not

:05:02. > :05:01.election. I do not think the parties matter. This will be a personal

:05:02. > :05:08.decision. What percentage of matter. This will be a personal

:05:09. > :05:13.MPs do you reckon we'll leave? It is a majority, I do not know what

:05:14. > :05:19.MPs do you reckon we'll leave? It is tomorrow and there was no other

:05:20. > :05:24.is that including the payroll vote? Yes. So two thirds of the

:05:25. > :05:30.Conservative Parliamentary party will vote to leave? Yes, if you did

:05:31. > :05:35.it tomorrow. But you have to be in mind the dynamics. You, like me,

:05:36. > :05:36.have lived through a lot of prime ministers and ministers returning

:05:37. > :05:43.from They arrive on Monday at 330 and

:05:44. > :05:48.declare their victory. We have no other information. None of it is

:05:49. > :05:49.published, the decisions had been taken in private with no

:05:50. > :05:52.journalists. There will be a sort taken in private with no

:05:53. > :05:59.wave out of that. Out of that, taken in private with no

:06:00. > :06:05.thirds will evaporate. Come the day, even 50% of the Conservative Party?

:06:06. > :06:07.I should think so. How many Cabinet ministers will exercise their right

:06:08. > :06:13.to campaign to leave? Not more ministers will exercise their right

:06:14. > :06:18.half a dozen, 56 maybe. I cannot think of more. Iain Duncan Smith?

:06:19. > :06:23.Iain Duncan Smith, maybe Theresa May, maybe sad you jab it, certainly

:06:24. > :06:28.Chris Grayling. Maybe Iain Duncan Smith. What is your reaction this

:06:29. > :06:31.morning to the story Smith. What is your reaction this

:06:32. > :06:37.officials in Downing Street are vetting or altering speeches by

:06:38. > :06:44.ministers to tone down Eurosceptic comments? My speeches go back 20

:06:45. > :06:52.years or so. Is this the start of the government machine getting

:06:53. > :06:55.moving? Yes. There are three things David Cameron said that were

:06:56. > :06:58.important. David Cameron made it plain that the government machine

:06:59. > :07:05.will go crazy on one side of this side image. It has started. Nothing

:07:06. > :07:09.unusual in that, by the way. David Cameron might get some sort of deal

:07:10. > :07:14.which curtails in work benefits for migrants. Is that a game changer,

:07:15. > :07:20.does it change it his way? He said, or something equally powerful, not

:07:21. > :07:24.important at all. Why do people come from Romania to hear? They come

:07:25. > :07:32.because the minimum wage is twice as big as the average wage in Rumania.

:07:33. > :07:35.And about to get bigger. In 2020, according to the Treasury strategy,

:07:36. > :07:42.tax credits will not matter, which is why they wanted to abolish them.

:07:43. > :07:48.In 2020, this whole strategy will be relevant. What is your best guess

:07:49. > :07:52.for the date of the referendum? Probably September this year. Not in

:07:53. > :07:57.summer? It might, but they have limitations built into the law. If

:07:58. > :08:00.they get it through in February, they might get the summer, but I do

:08:01. > :08:05.not think they will get it through in February. Bear in mind they have

:08:06. > :08:10.four basic claims, only one of which has really been talked about at the

:08:11. > :08:14.moment. Some of the others, the parliamentary proposals, the defence

:08:15. > :08:18.of the city, the euro, all of this, it will either be just words and not

:08:19. > :08:25.matter, which is weird lips at the moment, or it will be serious. The

:08:26. > :08:28.city basically needs a veto in European legislation relating to

:08:29. > :08:33.financial services. If it does not get that, it is meaningless. If

:08:34. > :08:37.David Cameron loses the referendum, does he have to resign as Prime

:08:38. > :08:44.Minister? That is the least important question. Is there an

:08:45. > :08:49.answer? I do not know. Should they? Not necessarily, it depends on how

:08:50. > :08:54.it goes with the terms. He said this morning there is no plans for a

:08:55. > :08:59.British exit. This is disgraceful. You have two moderately likely

:09:00. > :09:05.outcomes. We do not know which will be. There were no plans for Scottish

:09:06. > :09:09.independence. I suspect there were. There are no plans for the British

:09:10. > :09:13.exit and that is serious because it is a complicated operation to carry

:09:14. > :09:17.out if it happens. We will be returning to you, David Davis, thank

:09:18. > :09:20.you. Nick, there is no doubt that the

:09:21. > :09:25.Prime Minister is gearing up to campaign disdain with he brings back

:09:26. > :09:29.from Brussels. Absolutely, he is determined to keep Britain in the

:09:30. > :09:32.European Union. His official languages that he wants to

:09:33. > :09:37.renegotiate better terms and if he gets the right deal, he will keep

:09:38. > :09:40.them, but the mask slip today when Andrew Marr asked about British

:09:41. > :09:45.exit, the preparations for that, and he said it was not the right answer.

:09:46. > :09:49.Today, the other interesting things he did was a reprieve is of the

:09:50. > :09:56.Scottish referendum. He was saying that if you are -- that if you lost

:09:57. > :10:00.the referendum he would not resign. He wants to get that message out

:10:01. > :10:05.there because he wants to kill the idea of a link between his future

:10:06. > :10:09.and the referendum results. With the Scottish referendum, in private they

:10:10. > :10:12.prepared a resignation later. He made clear to Andrew Marr this

:10:13. > :10:16.morning that the government machine is not going to be neutral, it will

:10:17. > :10:20.back David Cameron. That is one of the reasons I would disagree with

:10:21. > :10:26.David Davis and say that the out campaign needs a big figurehead. You

:10:27. > :10:30.will have the full weight of an institutional machine behind the yes

:10:31. > :10:36.vote. On the out said, we have Nigel Farage. He appeals to 3 million

:10:37. > :10:40.voters, but not a majority. There is a responsible case to be made. That

:10:41. > :10:46.is why someone like Boris Johnson will be pressured enormously to say

:10:47. > :10:50.which side he will jump for. If David Davis is right, and at least

:10:51. > :10:55.50% of the parliamentary party, including the payroll vote is going

:10:56. > :11:00.to vote to leave, many will campaign to leave, that is a massive problem

:11:01. > :11:04.for the Conservatives and David Cameron? The problem is especially

:11:05. > :11:10.acute if the final result is so narrow that the result can be

:11:11. > :11:14.plausibly attributed to a credible, sitting Conservative Prime Minister

:11:15. > :11:20.having campaigned to remain in. If Eurosceptic backbenchers are Cabinet

:11:21. > :11:25.minister can say, had David Cameron campaigned the other way, or less

:11:26. > :11:29.lasciviously, we might have got our lifetime's ambition to leave the

:11:30. > :11:34.European Union. If it is close, it will linger in the Tory party. It

:11:35. > :11:39.introduces poison. My guess is that the party will fall apart. I am much

:11:40. > :11:44.less certain than I was 18 months ago. They know they can govern for

:11:45. > :11:48.another nine years. Have we change the constitution? I think the

:11:49. > :11:52.presence of Germany Corbyn effectively guarantees the next

:11:53. > :11:57.election. -- the presence of Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you.

:11:58. > :11:59.So Jeremy Corbyn sacked two Shadow ministers and three resigned.

:12:00. > :12:02.Now another Labour MP says she can no longer work with the party's

:12:03. > :12:04.leadership in the wake of last week's reshuffle.

:12:05. > :12:07.Alison McGovern has told this programme that she is resigning

:12:08. > :12:11.from a policy review on child poverty after the pressure group

:12:12. > :12:13.she chairs was described as "right wing" and "Conservative"

:12:14. > :12:17.Labour say she's resigning from something that doesn't exist.

:12:18. > :12:21.As Labour's internal divisions become more acrimonious,

:12:22. > :12:24.can the different wings of the party continue to work with each other?

:12:25. > :12:38.A new year, a new start, but still the fireworks.

:12:39. > :12:43.But let's be honest, we have sort of got used to them.

:12:44. > :12:48.There was that vote on Syria which saw 67 Labour MPs disagree

:12:49. > :12:50.with their leader and vote with the government,

:12:51. > :12:56.not least because of that speech from Hilary Benn.

:12:57. > :13:00.Can I have a Green Clean Machine, please, with Siberian ginseng

:13:01. > :13:05.Jeremy Corbyn's new year resolution, we were led to believe,

:13:06. > :13:07.was to detoxify his party, starting with a reshuffle.

:13:08. > :13:09.Things had started appearing in some of the newspapers.

:13:10. > :13:11.There was talk of revenge, a dish best served cold.

:13:12. > :13:15.The leadership team denied any such briefing.

:13:16. > :13:22.But nothing actually happened until Tuesday when Michael Dugher,

:13:23. > :13:23.the then Shadow Culture Secretary tweeted, just been

:13:24. > :13:32.The day rattled on but it was not until after midnight that

:13:33. > :13:35.Pat McFadden was fired from his role as a Shadow Europe Minister.

:13:36. > :13:37.Both were accused of disloyalty by the leadership.

:13:38. > :13:42.What then followed was a raft of resignations.

:13:43. > :13:45.The first was Jonathan Reynolds in the Shadow Transport team.

:13:46. > :13:47.Then the Shadow Foreign Office Minister, who picked our programme

:13:48. > :13:54.I have just written to Jeremy Corbyn to resign from the front bench.

:13:55. > :13:57.that I've seen being briefed at this morning, are simply not true.

:13:58. > :13:59.Undoubtedly they will do that about other individuals,

:14:00. > :14:01.undoubtedly they will do that about me.

:14:02. > :14:03.Less than an hour later, Shadow Defence Minister Kevan Jones

:14:04. > :14:10.Jeremy Corbyn's right-hand man, John McDonnell, also

:14:11. > :14:13.We have had a few junior members resign today

:14:14. > :14:17.and that is their right, but they do all come from a narrow

:14:18. > :14:19.right wing clique within the Labour Party, based around

:14:20. > :14:27.I do not think they have ever really accepted Jeremy's mandate.

:14:28. > :14:29.Progress is seen broadly as the Blairite wing of the party.

:14:30. > :14:32.By the time the Shadow Chancellor was making those comments,

:14:33. > :14:35.I am told he was late for a meeting with the group's

:14:36. > :14:40.Alison McGovern says he asked to take part in Labour's policy

:14:41. > :14:43.review on the subject, a role from which the Sunday Politics can

:14:44. > :14:47.reveal she now feels she has to resign.

:14:48. > :14:50.I am there waiting to meet him to talk about it and all

:14:51. > :14:53.the while he had gone to the television studio to call

:14:54. > :14:56.the organisation that I am the chair of of having a hard right

:14:57. > :15:01.We are all Labour members and we believe in having

:15:02. > :15:05.That is what we are, nothing more, nothing less,

:15:06. > :15:08.and I do not want to be on the television talking

:15:09. > :15:12.about this, but I feel like I have been backed into a corner and I have

:15:13. > :15:15.no other choice now but to stand up and say,

:15:16. > :15:18.this is who we are and we should get on with the business of getting

:15:19. > :15:23.The rumours have centred around one man, because of this.

:15:24. > :15:28.It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria.

:15:29. > :15:30.But Hilary Benn kept his job as Shadow Foreign Secretary.

:15:31. > :15:37.The BBC understands a number of Shadow Cabinet ministers had

:15:38. > :15:41.Other new frontbenchers have defended their boss.

:15:42. > :15:44.What Jeremy Corbyn has tried to do is to be consensual, to negotiate,

:15:45. > :15:50.not to hurt people's feelings and get the right team,

:15:51. > :15:53.This has not exactly been a happy new year for Labour.

:15:54. > :15:56.One Shadow Cabinet minister told me the handling of this

:15:57. > :16:02.Another former minister said it smacked of a leader more focused

:16:03. > :16:04.on consolidating his power internally and he was not looking

:16:05. > :16:09.It has left a bad taste in the mouths of a number of them.

:16:10. > :16:14.Actually, can I have a coffee instead?

:16:15. > :16:18.We're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Education Secretary,

:16:19. > :16:29.Welcome back to the programme. Was Jeremy Corbyn right to sack Michael

:16:30. > :16:35.Dugher from the Shadow Cabinet? Good morning to you as well. It is good

:16:36. > :16:39.to be zero. It has been a very difficult week for the Labour Party.

:16:40. > :16:44.How can I top it off, by having a nice friendly chat with you about

:16:45. > :16:47.the Labour Party? Was he right to sack Michael Dugher? I do not think

:16:48. > :16:51.that after the difficult week we have had, I week which everybody

:16:52. > :16:56.will be down to experience and learn the lessons from, that it is helpful

:16:57. > :17:00.to the Labour Party, and indeed politics as a whole, for us to pick

:17:01. > :17:04.through the events of that week. There is the moment to draw a line

:17:05. > :17:08.under what has happened this week and to focus on the job we have got,

:17:09. > :17:14.to be an effective opposition, to take this Tory government to task

:17:15. > :17:17.and to start to begin that detailed work of setting out Labour's vision

:17:18. > :17:22.and policies for the future, so that by the time of the next election, we

:17:23. > :17:25.have a real alternative to put on the table. OK, but you would agree

:17:26. > :17:32.the events are worthy of analysis and this is our first new programme

:17:33. > :17:36.of the new Year. Jeremy Corbyn's team briefed that Michael Dugher was

:17:37. > :17:40.incompetent. Do you think he was incompetent? The events of this week

:17:41. > :17:43.have had plenty of analysis over many days. Not on this programme.

:17:44. > :17:49.You have on your programme during the week as well. Was he

:17:50. > :17:52.incompetent? Michael Dugher is a very good colleague and he will

:17:53. > :17:55.serve the Labour Party well know from the backbenches, as he has done

:17:56. > :18:02.over many years from the front benches. After all that has happened

:18:03. > :18:08.this week, we retain a Shadow Cabinet, a Labour top team, that is

:18:09. > :18:14.a broad team. The team that I joined on that basis, and that spirit of a

:18:15. > :18:17.broad church remains. That is something I am pleased about, and

:18:18. > :18:22.together, we can do the job we have been asked to do, because we are not

:18:23. > :18:27.just Labour's Shadow Cabinet, we are the official opposition. The clue is

:18:28. > :18:32.in the name. It is our job to expose what the government is doing. That

:18:33. > :18:36.is my intention and Jeremy Corbyn's intention. Other members of the

:18:37. > :18:38.Shadow Cabinet, Charlie Falconer, have said we need to draw line under

:18:39. > :18:48.last week's events. Would you have stayed in the Shadow

:18:49. > :18:54.Cabinet if Hilary Benn had been sacked? I am not going to get drawn

:18:55. > :18:58.into nit-picking... It is a huge question because we were told 11

:18:59. > :19:03.Shadow Cabinet ministers had threatened to resign. You had been

:19:04. > :19:09.named in the number of reports as one of them, were you? It is a here

:19:10. > :19:18.political situation. Hilary Benn remains... The Shadow Cabinet

:19:19. > :19:23.remained intact as a broad team. My views were not sought nor offered.

:19:24. > :19:27.This is a matter for Jeremy Corbyn, he is the leader of the Labour Party

:19:28. > :19:31.and it is up to him to make decisions about the team and the

:19:32. > :19:36.Shadow Cabinet. One of the new members of your team is Emily corn

:19:37. > :19:40.bread, Shadow Defence Secretary. She says she does not know why Jeremy

:19:41. > :19:46.Corbyn made her Shadow Defence Secretary. Do you? Again it is not

:19:47. > :19:50.my view. I look forward to working with Emily and the rest of the

:19:51. > :19:55.Shadow Cabinet to develop those policies going forward. One of them

:19:56. > :20:00.is about the defence of our country and we will have a robust process,

:20:01. > :20:04.and very detailed process, where we put forward the argument and look at

:20:05. > :20:11.the evidence and the research and we will build a really good policy. Let

:20:12. > :20:16.me ask you about an issue on this. A lot of the reason people see why she

:20:17. > :20:20.has been appointed is quite clear. Your leader is against Trident and

:20:21. > :20:24.always has been, he put Ken Livingstone in charge of the Trident

:20:25. > :20:29.review, he now has a Shadow Defence Secretary opposed to Trident. It is

:20:30. > :20:36.obvious that he is moving to end Labour's support for the nuclear

:20:37. > :20:40.deterrent, is it not? You have got a very detailed policy process that we

:20:41. > :20:45.will go through. It is not just a matter for the Shadow Cabinet, it is

:20:46. > :20:50.a matter for the national policy forum. I am not a unilateralist, I

:20:51. > :20:57.think we should maintain an independent, ongoing nuclear

:20:58. > :21:01.deterrent. My question to you was... My question was is it not clear that

:21:02. > :21:07.Jeremy Corbyn wants to move your party to a unilateral nuclear

:21:08. > :21:10.disarmament position? That is his position, but let's see how this

:21:11. > :21:15.process goes forward. I have not had a discussion with him about Trident

:21:16. > :21:21.at all and we have not had a discussion in the Shadow Cabinet

:21:22. > :21:26.about this topic yet either. We have a clear policy making process. In my

:21:27. > :21:30.experience of these things, it never turns out to be as binary as

:21:31. > :21:35.everybody wants it to be. As you proceed and set out your argument

:21:36. > :21:39.and case and look at the evidence, as you commission research and try

:21:40. > :21:45.to build alliances, not just within the Shadow Cabinet, but within the

:21:46. > :21:49.trade union membership, you compromise and your position changes

:21:50. > :21:54.and you get a policy that everyone can get behind and in my experience

:21:55. > :21:59.that is what will happen. You are either for or against having nuclear

:22:00. > :22:03.arms and labour fought the 1983 election on a unilateral disarmament

:22:04. > :22:07.tickets and lost by a landslide. You have said you are in favour of

:22:08. > :22:12.Trident. Would you resign from the Shadow Cabinet if labour comes out

:22:13. > :22:20.for nuclear disarmament? I know you want this to be an easy decision. I

:22:21. > :22:28.would just like an answer, Lucy Powell. Let's see where we get to.

:22:29. > :22:32.If the Labour position becomes Mr Livingstone and Jeremy Corbyn's

:22:33. > :22:38.position, if that becomes your official policy, would you stay in

:22:39. > :22:43.the Cabinet? I would be very surprised after all the discussion

:22:44. > :22:47.we go through, after all aspects of the Labour Party, I would be very

:22:48. > :22:52.surprised if we got to a position where the Labour Party policy was

:22:53. > :22:57.one of unilateral disarmament. If it was, what would you do? We will see

:22:58. > :23:02.when we get there, but I really do not think we will get there. I am

:23:03. > :23:07.doing pretty badly this morning since every question has yet to

:23:08. > :23:12.elicit an answer. I am getting better at batting you off. You

:23:13. > :23:18.either on who is telling the viewers you are batting me off. I want to be

:23:19. > :23:23.on your programme topic about what is happening to junior doctors. Stop

:23:24. > :23:31.playing for time. Ask me about education and health. There are

:23:32. > :23:35.reports this morning and Mr McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor

:23:36. > :23:40.already referred to this, that Jeremy Corbyn's people want to

:23:41. > :23:45.policy-making from the Shadow Cabinet to the Labour National

:23:46. > :23:50.Executive Committee, not even the policy forum, just the executive

:23:51. > :23:55.committee. Do you support that move? I do not think that is going to

:23:56. > :24:00.happen. Any changes to Labour Party policy-making process, as those on

:24:01. > :24:04.the left will know better than anybody because they are the holders

:24:05. > :24:08.of the rule book, they will know that changes like that can only be

:24:09. > :24:13.made at conference by changing the rule book of the Labour Party. We

:24:14. > :24:20.have a very consensual policy-making process. Will the National Executive

:24:21. > :24:24.Committee be the policy forum? No, that is not their role. We have got

:24:25. > :24:28.a policy forum that could be improved in the way it engages with

:24:29. > :24:32.outside experts and party members and the public and it could be

:24:33. > :24:38.improved and Angela Eagle is looking that at that at the moment. But we

:24:39. > :24:43.have a very robust and complex system, but to get to the right

:24:44. > :24:50.policy-making process, and I know those of you in the media what it to

:24:51. > :24:52.be really simple, but it is not. Was it consensual for the Shadow

:24:53. > :24:59.Chancellor to describe the progress pressure group as having, quote, a

:25:00. > :25:04.right-wing, Conservative agenda? I do not think his comments were right

:25:05. > :25:10.or helpful. The best thing we can do now at the end of this week that we

:25:11. > :25:13.have had is to put an end to the escalation of factionalism and name

:25:14. > :25:18.calling and move on together to do the job that we need to do, which is

:25:19. > :25:22.to be an effective government. You said today there are big issues

:25:23. > :25:26.around Europe, junior doctors going on strike for the first time in 40

:25:27. > :25:30.years and we have got an important job to do that my constituents

:25:31. > :25:35.expect us to be doing. The last thing they want, and if there is

:25:36. > :25:39.anything that Jeremy's leadership when taught us is that this

:25:40. > :25:48.internal, talking about each other and the factions and so on, that is

:25:49. > :25:50.what the public hate. They want big vision and big ideas and policies

:25:51. > :25:55.for the future. When I ask you about policy ideas you will not give me an

:25:56. > :25:59.answer. There cannot be a bigger idea than whether or not the Labour

:26:00. > :26:05.Party is moving towards unilateral nuclear disarmament. We have just

:26:06. > :26:09.had a huge chat about that. Ask me about education and the floods, the

:26:10. > :26:14.economy that needs to change for working people. Ask me about the

:26:15. > :26:17.crisis that is hitting families at the same time David Cameron is

:26:18. > :26:21.making a speech about families and his government is doing the opposite

:26:22. > :26:28.of supporting families. Ask me some of those things. On families are you

:26:29. > :26:32.disappointed that Alison McGovern, the chair of progress, has resigned

:26:33. > :26:36.from the policy forum on child poverty? It is a shame because

:26:37. > :26:41.Alison has got a huge amount to offer. I have known her for many

:26:42. > :26:46.years before both of us were Labour MPs and she has been a long-standing

:26:47. > :26:48.campaigner on issues of child poverty and international

:26:49. > :26:53.development and how we can change the economy to make it work for

:26:54. > :26:57.working people. I hope Allison continues to make a contribution to

:26:58. > :27:01.the Labour Party and I am sure she will, she is an effective

:27:02. > :27:05.parliamentarian. I know from speaking to her that the last thing

:27:06. > :27:11.she wants is all this attention that she is getting today and she was to

:27:12. > :27:14.move on and draw a line and what has happened and realign our fire

:27:15. > :27:19.knocked on each other, but on the Tories and on this government that

:27:20. > :27:25.is doing a terrible job of running this country. Let me return to Emily

:27:26. > :27:30.Thornberry. A year ago she accepted ?14,500 donation from a law firm

:27:31. > :27:34.which has been condemned by an enquiry for making false allegations

:27:35. > :27:39.against British soldiers which were wholly without merit, in the words

:27:40. > :27:43.of the enquiry. Now she is Shadow Defence Secretary should she

:27:44. > :27:48.returned that money? I do not know anything about that, I do not know

:27:49. > :27:52.about the law firm or the nature of the sponsorship and how it was given

:27:53. > :27:56.or what she is doing, but I am sure she will come on this programme and

:27:57. > :28:01.you can interrogate her about these issues as you happen to me the past.

:28:02. > :28:04.Very well, let's hope I will do better next time. Goodbye.

:28:05. > :28:09.Now, after last-ditch talks broke up on Friday without agreement

:28:10. > :28:11.a strike by Junior doctors, the first in over 40 years,

:28:12. > :28:15.It will lead to the cancellation of thousands of appointments

:28:16. > :28:17.and operations and the Government argues

:28:18. > :28:20.So what's prompted this virtually unprecedented action by Doctors?

:28:21. > :28:27.The Health Secretary is the star of a high-stakes medical drama.

:28:28. > :28:31.The supporting cast, junior doctors, the thousands of staff who finished

:28:32. > :28:34.medical school but are not consultants yet.

:28:35. > :28:37.It is over big changes to their contracts, from rotas

:28:38. > :28:42.to pay, changes which are much needed, according to the government,

:28:43. > :28:52.and their supporters in places like right of centre think tanks.

:28:53. > :28:55.It has wanted to move towards more of the seven-day week,

:28:56. > :28:57.which actually, I think that ambition is shared

:28:58. > :29:00.across the medical workforce, including junior doctors,

:29:01. > :29:02.and it wants to change the so-called pay progression,

:29:03. > :29:06.the way that junior doctors get paid more just for being in office

:29:07. > :29:09.for longer, just as they are doing to the rest of the public sector,

:29:10. > :29:11.so I think they were absolutely right to start this

:29:12. > :29:16.But the doctors are furious about it.

:29:17. > :29:18.Both sides have been negotiating for months,

:29:19. > :29:21.most recently on Friday, when the gap between them

:29:22. > :29:30.Let's look at some of the concessions made

:29:31. > :29:35.They want Saturday to be considered a normal working day.

:29:36. > :29:37.Initially they said antisocial hours which come with extra pay would not

:29:38. > :29:43.But that has been rolled back to 7:00pm.

:29:44. > :29:45.The Department of Health has also promised to introduce so-called

:29:46. > :29:48.guardians who will monitor that doctors are not forced to work

:29:49. > :29:55.They will have the power to fine NHS trusts who break the rules,

:29:56. > :29:58.and the Government reckons most junior doctors will actually see

:29:59. > :30:04.Jeremy Hunt says that agreement has been reached in 15 out of 16 areas,

:30:05. > :30:07.but I've spoken to someone on the junior doctors' negotiating

:30:08. > :30:09.team who told me that the number of unresolved issues

:30:10. > :30:15.Nadia is an anaesthetist at a London Hospital.

:30:16. > :30:18.She will be a consultant soon and is worried for the junior

:30:19. > :30:21.doctors who will follow in her footsteps.

:30:22. > :30:23.They will probably find themselves working more weekends,

:30:24. > :30:31.They would find their shifts much more erratic, much less compatible

:30:32. > :30:35.with having a normal life, which would affect the working lives

:30:36. > :30:38.of thousands of junior doctors who have families and children

:30:39. > :30:42.in school, and they would struggle with that.

:30:43. > :30:45.It would also affect patients, having erratic working lives,

:30:46. > :30:49.erratic working hours, is proven not to be good

:30:50. > :30:51.for anyone's health, and there are lots of studies that

:30:52. > :30:57.If this contract goes through, there is a high likelihood

:30:58. > :31:00.that is going to be the situation and those people will be in charge

:31:01. > :31:05.More than 70 junior doctors from hospitals along

:31:06. > :31:10.It is a repeat of 1975, the last time that junior

:31:11. > :31:13.On Tuesday, this generation of medics will provide only

:31:14. > :31:19.Another two strikes are coming with plans for no junior doctors

:31:20. > :31:30.This issue has even made it into the charts when an NHS choir

:31:31. > :31:36.One of the campaigners behind it says the government is not

:31:37. > :31:42.seeing the real problems in the health service.

:31:43. > :31:45.There are not enough staff, this is not in one hospital,

:31:46. > :31:47.this is every hospital in the country, there are not enough

:31:48. > :31:50.staff to deal with the demands in A

:31:51. > :31:54.There are not enough GPs, and GPs are leaving our health

:31:55. > :31:56.service, A doctors are leaving the health service.

:31:57. > :32:00.These are the key issues which need to be addressed,

:32:01. > :32:03.and they need to be addressed now, not after this contract negotiation

:32:04. > :32:06.or as part of a pay envelope, or any other speak the government

:32:07. > :32:19.Jeremy Hunt is convinced that a more seven-day NHS is the way

:32:20. > :32:22.But it looks like there could be plenty of cliffhangers

:32:23. > :32:26.Now, we asked for an interview with the doctors' union,

:32:27. > :32:29.the BMA, and the Department for Health but neither

:32:30. > :32:33.But we're joined now by the former Conservative MP and Health Secretary

:32:34. > :32:41.He now chairs the NHS Confederation which represents NHS Trusts.

:32:42. > :32:50.Welcome to the programme. Thank you. Our BMA militants spoiling for a

:32:51. > :32:56.fight, or has Jeremy Hunt bungled the negotiations and provoke

:32:57. > :33:01.hard-working doctors to stop work? The last thing patients want is a

:33:02. > :33:05.long running commentary about the behaviour of the negotiating

:33:06. > :33:11.parties. It is disappointing that we have got a strike action plan for

:33:12. > :33:15.this week, but what we need to see is the parties back in the

:33:16. > :33:19.negotiating room dealing with the detail that your report just

:33:20. > :33:26.highlighted. That can only be dealt with round the negotiating table.

:33:27. > :33:33.The overwhelming majority of doctors to back an unprecedented action of

:33:34. > :33:35.strikes, including a full strike in the third one, hardly suggests the

:33:36. > :33:42.negotiations have been handled with aplomb. What has been going on

:33:43. > :33:46.within the negotiating room is addressing the detail. Any pay

:33:47. > :33:52.negotiation, as you very well know, covers a mass of complex detail.

:33:53. > :33:55.There is a commitment from the BMA and the employers and the government

:33:56. > :34:01.to deliver better performance over the weekend and we have seen. We

:34:02. > :34:05.have seen in our hospitals that there is an issue around excess

:34:06. > :34:09.mortality. The government is right to address that issue. This is part

:34:10. > :34:15.of the response to that issue and that is a commitment that is shared

:34:16. > :34:20.by all the negotiators. It cannot be that accepted as they are going on

:34:21. > :34:24.strike. The government claims there are 11,000 unnecessary weekend

:34:25. > :34:30.deaths because of book cover. That is just a propaganda figure. It is

:34:31. > :34:35.right that the excess mortality is not just around we can cover, that

:34:36. > :34:42.is true. That figure is a propaganda figure. There is an analysis that

:34:43. > :34:47.shows there is excess mortality in British hospitals at weekends. That

:34:48. > :34:50.is an issue that the BMA, the doctors, the clinical leaders of the

:34:51. > :34:55.health service and the management leaders and the government from a

:34:56. > :34:59.policy point of view all understand needs to be reassessed. Except the

:35:00. > :35:03.report comes up with the 11000 and you said it is not possible to

:35:04. > :35:08.determine the extent to which these excess deaths may be preventable and

:35:09. > :35:13.it would be misleading to assume they were. It is a figure the

:35:14. > :35:18.Secretary of State uses all the time. Rash and misleading. I am not

:35:19. > :35:22.using it, but I say there is a need to look seriously on behalf of

:35:23. > :35:29.patients if there is evidence of excess mortality at the weekend. We

:35:30. > :35:34.know there is excess mortality. But that is not the right figure. Should

:35:35. > :35:39.we simply sit back and do nothing? If the figure is not right perhaps

:35:40. > :35:43.the Secretary of State should not be using it. Is it not wholly

:35:44. > :35:48.unrealistic to implement a full seven-day week cover in the NHS

:35:49. > :35:53.without an increase in overall NHS resources? That is what the

:35:54. > :35:58.government announced in the comprehensive spending review before

:35:59. > :36:03.Christmas. What is unrealistic... That is simply to keep the NHS

:36:04. > :36:08.ticking over, it is not to pay for seven days a week cover. It is

:36:09. > :36:13.unrealistic to imagine we can deliver the kind of health and care

:36:14. > :36:15.services we want in our country without addressing some of the

:36:16. > :36:50.fundamental issues around Funding. Let us look at the funding.

:36:51. > :36:57.The government is trying to implement seven-day week cover on

:36:58. > :37:06.health spending. That is essentially unchanged in real terms. Look at the

:37:07. > :37:12.health spending, as a share of our GDP, among the wealthier countries,

:37:13. > :37:16.we spend 8.5% of our GDP on health, that includes private health. These

:37:17. > :37:22.other countries, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, are all close

:37:23. > :37:30.to 11%. Given that we already spend less, how can we hope to have a

:37:31. > :37:34.seven day a week NHS on 8.5% of GDP? You dropped about slogans, can I

:37:35. > :37:40.pick up on this slogan, most people know perfectly well that we already

:37:41. > :37:46.have a seven-day NHS. What you say about this? The funding of the

:37:47. > :37:53.health service, that is precisely one of the issues with which I

:37:54. > :37:57.agree, it needs to be addressed. On a cross-party basis. That is one of

:37:58. > :38:01.the things I learned as chair of the cross-party health committee in the

:38:02. > :38:05.last parliament. Can we afford things like seven-day week full

:38:06. > :38:13.cover. That is what is being proposed with that level of health

:38:14. > :38:18.spending. Only island spends less than we do. I accept that there is

:38:19. > :38:26.an issue with excess mortality at weekends. What I do not accept is

:38:27. > :38:29.that we have a seven-day week NHS. Do you accept that we need to get

:38:30. > :38:35.closer to France and Germany than we are the moment on spending? I do

:38:36. > :38:39.agree that not just in this country, but right across the world over a

:38:40. > :38:43.very long period, as societies get richer they spend more of their

:38:44. > :38:46.income on health and care services. But we have to move away from

:38:47. > :38:52.thinking that the health service is an island. It is part of the care

:38:53. > :38:56.system and we have to look at that from a holistic pieces across health

:38:57. > :39:02.and care. That is why think we need a cross-party review in the medium

:39:03. > :39:06.and long-term. You're doing a commission and a hope you keep us

:39:07. > :39:12.appraised of that. It is coming up to 11:40pm. We say goodbye to

:39:13. > :39:18.viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday politics in Scotland.

:39:19. > :39:20.Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:39:21. > :39:23.Coming up on the programme: As David Cameron continues to press

:39:24. > :39:25.for reform of the EU how do politicians here view

:39:26. > :39:31.the prospect of a European referendum?

:39:32. > :39:33.Help for first-time buyers, and THAT reshuffle -

:39:34. > :39:39.we'll be speaking to the Shadow Scottish Secretary Ian Murray live.

:39:40. > :39:41.So, a new year begins - and it's another election year.

:39:42. > :39:44.Voters go to the polls to choose their MSPs in May.

:39:45. > :39:48.But the prospect of a second national vote this year is looming

:39:49. > :39:49.increasingly large - could we have an EU

:39:50. > :39:55.David Cameron gave his ministers a free vote on the issue this week

:39:56. > :39:58.and told the Andrew Marr programme this morning he remains hopeful

:39:59. > :40:01.of making a deal next month on new terms for Britain's

:40:02. > :40:05.With a growing crop of campaigns on both sides of the argument,

:40:06. > :40:08.it was announced today that the former Labour MP Frank Roy

:40:09. > :40:10.will be Campaign Director in Scotland for Britain Stronger In

:40:11. > :40:17.Europe. Natalie Higgins reports.

:40:18. > :40:24.2016 is just ten days old, but David Cameron has already resumed his

:40:25. > :40:32.seemingly unending to review it. He is trying to persuade leaders to

:40:33. > :40:37.back his version of reforms for the EU. That means opting out of further

:40:38. > :40:45.political integration, more protection for non-EU countries and

:40:46. > :40:49.restricting benefits for EU workers who come to the UK. In Scotland,

:40:50. > :40:55.Ukip will be campaigning to leave but most parties are officially for

:40:56. > :41:03.staying in. However Labour MPs will be allowed a free vote.

:41:04. > :41:07.I think the more distinctive view, the most important view, is to put

:41:08. > :41:12.forward the case for a corporation generally, and a corporation that is

:41:13. > :41:15.possible within Europe, not just on terrorism and security and jobs, but

:41:16. > :41:21.on energy, to use the wind, wave and solar power that we can use in

:41:22. > :41:25.Scotland as part of the European great, cooperation on trade, or

:41:26. > :41:28.receives International aid and development. First Minister

:41:29. > :41:33.meanwhile is adamant that Scotland should not be dragged out of the EU

:41:34. > :41:38.against its well. But if the EU as a whole does vote for Brexit then

:41:39. > :41:39.Scotland would be an uncharted territory.

:41:40. > :41:44.The Scottish Government could say we want another independence referendum

:41:45. > :41:48.and want to stay in the EU. Westminster Mile not agree with

:41:49. > :41:55.that, then there will be another conflict. You might find that the

:41:56. > :42:00.parliament will say, we will not repeal EU laws, we do not agree with

:42:01. > :42:06.you, and then there would be a stalemate while Scotland with block

:42:07. > :42:09.Britain leaving the EU. The last, intriguing option, might be that

:42:10. > :42:15.Scotland would leave Europe with the rest of the UK but say, we want

:42:16. > :42:18.devolution of a lot of the EU policies so that we can negotiate a

:42:19. > :42:28.closer relationship with muscles than you, the UK, are planning to

:42:29. > :42:32.negotiate. The truth is nobody knows the extent

:42:33. > :42:36.to which those waters which are at the moment opposed to independence,

:42:37. > :42:44.how much they would be willing to change their view is the UK were to

:42:45. > :42:48.vote to leave the European Union. But certainly any very committed

:42:49. > :42:55.unionist who is really thinking about, which direction do I want

:42:56. > :42:58.this to go and perhaps is not completely committed to going

:42:59. > :43:02.outside of the European Union, might ask themselves, defying courage

:43:03. > :43:07.people to leave, maybe I will be bringing about the break-up of

:43:08. > :43:09.Britain. With the EU negotiations potentially

:43:10. > :43:15.been concluded as early as next month there is growing confidence

:43:16. > :43:17.there will be a vote this year, possibly as early as June. That

:43:18. > :43:19.would mean less talk on the continent and more debates here at

:43:20. > :43:21.home. Labour north and south of the border

:43:22. > :43:24.will campaign to remain in the EU, although MPs and MSPs

:43:25. > :43:26.will have a free vote. But there is a history

:43:27. > :43:29.of Euroscepticism from the far left. In the 1975 referendum to decide

:43:30. > :43:32.whether Britain should stay in the European Economic Community,

:43:33. > :43:35.as it was then called, both Tony Benn and Michael Foot

:43:36. > :43:37.campaigned prominently Under Tony Blair, opposition

:43:38. > :43:43.to the EU dwindled, but its current UK leader's position has

:43:44. > :43:45.been more ambivalent. Jeremy Corbyn has voted in favour

:43:46. > :43:53.of social measures and those As recently as September last year

:43:54. > :43:56.there was a question of whether he'd favour continuing

:43:57. > :44:02.membership of the EU? Well, to answer that,

:44:03. > :44:07.and other questions, the Shadow Scottish Secretary Ian

:44:08. > :44:09.Murray joins us from our Edinburgh

:44:10. > :44:22.studio. Are all of the MSPs in labour here

:44:23. > :44:26.pro-euro? Think the vast majority of not just Labour members but Labour

:44:27. > :44:33.supporters are pro-Europe. We see the benefits of being part of... But

:44:34. > :44:37.do you see any Labour MSPs campaigning to leave? And do not

:44:38. > :44:48.know of any campaigning to leave. There are some MPs who are

:44:49. > :44:53.campaigning. They are running that Out campaign. We are broad church of

:44:54. > :44:57.a party. But Scottish Labour will be putting lots of resources behind

:44:58. > :45:00.staying in the European Union because it is in Scotland's

:45:01. > :45:05.interests to do so. As far as you are aware, you will all be

:45:06. > :45:11.campaigning to stay in? As far as I am aware, the entirety of Scottish

:45:12. > :45:18.Labour will be campaigning to stay in. Do not know any colleagues who

:45:19. > :45:21.will be of the view of wanting to leave. They will have a free vote in

:45:22. > :45:27.any case and that is the right thing to do. We will be campaigning very

:45:28. > :45:30.hard, it is in Scotland's national interest to do so. Would you be

:45:31. > :45:39.happy to campaign with conservatives who are in favour of staying in? We

:45:40. > :45:45.have set up our own distinct campaign, run by Alan Johnson at

:45:46. > :45:49.national level. We will be campaigning with the Labour Party,

:45:50. > :45:54.for the Labour Party, to stay in. Other parties will have their own

:45:55. > :45:57.campaigns. When you run through the referendum campaign there will be

:45:58. > :46:00.issues we will campaign on together and separately, but this is a

:46:01. > :46:06.distinct Labour campaign to keep Scotland and the United Kingdom in

:46:07. > :46:11.the EU. You would be happy to share a platform with conservatives who

:46:12. > :46:17.share your views? We will ship platforms was also the parties,

:46:18. > :46:25.including the SNP, the Greens -- we will be sharing platforms. There can

:46:26. > :46:31.only be one official Out and In campaign. What do you make of the

:46:32. > :46:39.SNP argument that shoot the eventuality arise that Scotland

:46:40. > :46:42.voted to leave, but the UK voted to stay in, that that would be

:46:43. > :46:47.justification for another independence referendum? The SNP

:46:48. > :46:51.have had between 15 and 20 justifications for another

:46:52. > :46:55.referendum. We should all sing from the same hymn sheet in terms of

:46:56. > :46:58.keeping Scotland and the UK in the EU. That is what we should all be

:46:59. > :47:05.campaigning on with one voice because it is good for Scottish job

:47:06. > :47:10.and Scottish corporations. -- jobs. Should that come to pass, how

:47:11. > :47:14.strongly do you feel about it? Do you think the British government

:47:15. > :47:18.would be entitled to say, no, you have just had a vote on independence

:47:19. > :47:23.and have faltered to stay in the UK and if the UK votes to leave that is

:47:24. > :47:29.it, you cannot have another referendum? The other question is

:47:30. > :47:34.true. What if the rest of the UK voted to stay in the European Union

:47:35. > :47:39.and Scotland voted to leave. This is a vote for the UK Parliament as the

:47:40. > :47:47.state that has the membership. That is what we are fighting to keep end.

:47:48. > :47:57.We will be fighting to make sure that it is larger than one vote to

:47:58. > :48:01.end. -- to win. We want to put this to bed as an issue so that we can

:48:02. > :48:06.start cooperating in Europe to get what we want. Whatever scenario we

:48:07. > :48:10.talk about, there is no justification in your view for

:48:11. > :48:15.another independence referendum? I cannot see where the justification

:48:16. > :48:19.would come from. On all of these issues, the economic case for

:48:20. > :48:24.independence is worse now than it was last year. We have to do what is

:48:25. > :48:28.in the best interest of Scotland and the Scottish people, that is why we

:48:29. > :48:35.are campaigning to stay end, it is the right thing to do. RU still a

:48:36. > :48:42.member of the Progress grip? Yes. How did you feel about it been

:48:43. > :48:46.described as part of our right-wing clique by the Chancellor of the

:48:47. > :48:53.Exchequer -- Shadow Chancellor of the exchequer? They need to ramp

:48:54. > :48:57.down the rhetoric. We are on Labour Party fighting to oppose the

:48:58. > :49:00.Conservative Government and when elections in Scotland in May. Some

:49:01. > :49:03.of the words that he chosen that particular interview were

:49:04. > :49:09.unnecessary and, indeed, you should be trying to unite the party rather

:49:10. > :49:12.than ramping up rhetoric against embers of the party who are loyal

:49:13. > :49:17.servants of Labour Party and their constituents and opponents of this

:49:18. > :49:35.austerity Conservative Government. How did you feel

:49:36. > :49:45.about Michael Dugher been fired? He will be a stronger thorn in the

:49:46. > :49:47.Conservatives's sides from the backbenches perhaps. I went to give

:49:48. > :49:51.can solidarity to some colleagues who had lost their jobs because that

:49:52. > :49:57.is the rate thing to do because they are good parliamentarians and close

:49:58. > :50:00.colleagues. You're close colleagues and friends have been sacked and you

:50:01. > :50:07.have been described as part of the hard right by a man who is the

:50:08. > :50:11.Shadow Chancellor of the exchequer. In this process, did you at any

:50:12. > :50:18.point considered doing what some of your other colleagues dead and

:50:19. > :50:21.quitting the Cabinet? No, we need a strong Scottish voice in the Shadow

:50:22. > :50:27.Cabinet, we have a big job to do here in Scotland. My only concern at

:50:28. > :50:30.the moment is to make sure we can put forward a policy platform for

:50:31. > :50:34.the 2016 Scottish elections that is bald and positive and radical and

:50:35. > :50:40.will take the fight to the Scottish Government and will win as many

:50:41. > :50:42.votes and seat is possible whilst holding this dreadful Conservative

:50:43. > :50:45.Government to account. I have no intention of resigning from the

:50:46. > :50:52.Shadow Cabinet because we are part of the team, we have a big job to do

:50:53. > :50:55.as the official opposition in this country and that is why we are

:50:56. > :50:58.working together as a team. Some of the language that has been used

:50:59. > :51:01.should be toned down slightly and we need to get back to doing what we

:51:02. > :51:04.should be doing, and that is being the official opposition. Do you

:51:05. > :51:10.think Jeremy Corbyn can win the next general election?

:51:11. > :51:16.Jeremy Corbyn is trying to do politics differently. It is not

:51:17. > :51:22.everyone's cup of tea. He wants to very carefully go through a policy

:51:23. > :51:26.development process and go through using his Shadow Cabinet and Shadow

:51:27. > :51:30.ministerial teams. He wants to involve as many people as he can and

:51:31. > :51:34.he is doing that in a very considered way. It is a new way of

:51:35. > :51:38.doing politics that we all have to consider. Then he get that kind of

:51:39. > :51:42.policy platform in place and gets the new policy in place that

:51:43. > :51:47.everyone wants to see we will see the benefit of that. This new policy

:51:48. > :51:52.that Kezia Dugdale promote with this week, basically giving money to

:51:53. > :51:55.first-time buyers, this was money that was supposedly going to be used

:51:56. > :52:01.to help people who would the affected by George Osborne's cuts to

:52:02. > :52:09.tax credits. He has since abandoned those. I struggle to see the logic

:52:10. > :52:12.of saying money you mark to help the police in society should now be

:52:13. > :52:18.given as a bunk to people who want to buy a house. I think you're being

:52:19. > :52:23.slightly unkind to this holiday. It was bold and radical. It is not the

:52:24. > :52:27.bond to people looking to buy a house but to support first-time

:52:28. > :52:33.buyers who are looking to get on the property ladder. People who qualify

:52:34. > :52:37.for this will already have been in a thief to buy ice that set up by the

:52:38. > :52:44.Tories and the Tories and they could have got 3000 homes from the

:52:45. > :52:49.conservative government already. It is saying we will do double poorly

:52:50. > :52:56.in Scotland. We have to be careful when using words like bung. The air

:52:57. > :52:59.passenger duty money was allocated to tax credits and that is no longer

:53:00. > :53:05.required to be used cause of the U-turn won in the house of lords.

:53:06. > :53:08.That money is available to be reallocated and Kezia Dugdale has

:53:09. > :53:13.reallocated that. The second thing is, let me just run through the

:53:14. > :53:21.hypothetical of a couple living together. If erect were to put ?100

:53:22. > :53:26.each into a help to buy ice they would have enough within two years

:53:27. > :53:33.to have it topped up to ?9,000 which would give each couple ?3000 each

:53:34. > :53:39.from Kezia Dugdale's policy. What is this got to do with helping the

:53:40. > :53:45.least well off in society? 96% of first-time buyers ie property less

:53:46. > :53:49.than ?250,000 so this is the kind of deposit you require. It is

:53:50. > :53:55.aspirational in terms of those who want to get on the property market.

:53:56. > :54:00.This is the right thing to do to help them. I think it is important.

:54:01. > :54:03.This isn't just about getting first-time buyers on the property

:54:04. > :54:08.market but about putting money into the economy. It is nothing better to

:54:09. > :54:13.stimulate the economy than people buying their first home. I am

:54:14. > :54:17.tempted to buy the same question again but I do not have time.

:54:18. > :54:19.For Unionists there's an added pressure in all this.

:54:20. > :54:22.Some may be Eurosceptic but worried that if a majority in Britain vote

:54:23. > :54:26.in favour of leaving but Scotland elects to remain part of the EU it

:54:27. > :54:28.could trigger a second independence referendum here and tear

:54:29. > :54:38.Here's Nicola Sturgeon talking last year about that eventuality.

:54:39. > :54:46.I have said before and I repeat again today that it Scotland was to

:54:47. > :54:51.find itself facing an EU exit that we hadn't voted for a second

:54:52. > :54:56.referendum may be unstoppable. It may be a material change to the

:54:57. > :55:00.circumstances in which last year's vote was taken. We will be

:55:01. > :55:03.campaigning for the UK to remain within the European Union.

:55:04. > :55:05.Well, to talk about that we have two Conservative politicians.

:55:06. > :55:08.In a moment we'll speak to the Conservative MEP Ian Duncan

:55:09. > :55:11.but first, from our Aberdeen studio, is MSP Alex Johnstone who supports

:55:12. > :55:16.the Prime Minister's endeavours to renegotiate terms.

:55:17. > :55:25.Alex, have you made up your mind which way you are going to vote? I

:55:26. > :55:30.have not. It depends entirely on the outcome of the negotiations the row

:55:31. > :55:35.minister is involved in. We have serious problems in Europe at the

:55:36. > :55:38.moment. These are obvious to anyone who watches news broadcasts. Our

:55:39. > :55:42.direction in Europe is inappropriate at this time which is why we need

:55:43. > :55:51.you can bring to be successful in these negotiations. I think my red

:55:52. > :55:56.line is a rather sense of direction. I see problems, political problems

:55:57. > :56:00.across Europe where the refugee crisis, for example, has affected

:56:01. > :56:05.relationships between countries and affected the article opinion within

:56:06. > :56:08.countries. I see the economic crisis we were talking about before this

:56:09. > :56:12.happened, particularly the state of the Greek economy and other smaller

:56:13. > :56:19.populations particularly in the south of Europe desperately needing

:56:20. > :56:21.assistance and attention. I see a Europe that is not designed to

:56:22. > :56:25.properly deal with that problem and written needs not to be right into

:56:26. > :56:31.that kind of situation against their will. I want a Europe that has a

:56:32. > :56:38.different sense of direction. One that is about opening up trade,

:56:39. > :56:41.competition, opportunity and not providing an economic and political

:56:42. > :56:47.straitjacket that will benefit some countries and disadvantage any more.

:56:48. > :56:51.If you decide David Cameron has not met those objectives you just

:56:52. > :56:58.outlined, will you campaign to leave the European Union? If we get to a

:56:59. > :57:02.position with it is obviously disadvantageous for Britain to

:57:03. > :57:05.remain within the EU then I think it is all our duty to ensure that we do

:57:06. > :57:11.the right thing and I would be repaired to support a vote to take

:57:12. > :57:18.us out of the YouTube in union if it was a disadvantage for us to stay

:57:19. > :57:21.in. -- the European Union. I want to stay in the European Union and I

:57:22. > :57:27.want David Cameron to achieve a deal. Do you know if any of your

:57:28. > :57:34.colleagues will be campaigning for exit? At this stage I would be

:57:35. > :57:37.surprised if any of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament declared

:57:38. > :57:50.that they would be campaigning for a noble. -- reinvent. The evidence

:57:51. > :57:53.seems to be that conservative voters are split on the issue. If you are

:57:54. > :57:58.the Conservatives aborted in Scotland I do feel very strongly

:57:59. > :58:00.written should leave the EU who, given that Ruth Davidson has told

:58:01. > :58:06.this programme several weeks ago that she would campaign for a yes

:58:07. > :58:10.vote irrespective of what David Cameron negotiated, who will

:58:11. > :58:19.represent these Tory voters who want out? It is entirely important that

:58:20. > :58:25.people will have their own opinions. What we have to remember is that it

:58:26. > :58:29.is equally irresponsible for anyone to take a position in advance of

:58:30. > :58:33.these negotiations whether we should be in or out, particularly those who

:58:34. > :58:40.find themselves in a position where they want Britain to be stronger

:58:41. > :58:42.within Europe. That is why it is so important that we wait for

:58:43. > :58:48.negotiations to take place, find out the deal that David Cameron is going

:58:49. > :58:51.to achieve and we vote on that deal and not on a broader principle which

:58:52. > :58:58.is not defined within David Cameron's negotiations. Before I let

:58:59. > :59:02.you go, with another hat on, you are a north-east MP, you have had

:59:03. > :59:08.terrible floods up there. We are also a farmer. Briefly tell us how

:59:09. > :59:13.the clean-up is going and whether you think farmers in particular need

:59:14. > :59:17.any more help from the government. One of the particular problems you

:59:18. > :59:22.is that farmers are not getting much help from the government at all. As

:59:23. > :59:25.you may be aware, most subsidy payments were gathered together many

:59:26. > :59:31.years ago into a single annual farm raiment. For many farmers, the

:59:32. > :59:36.majority in Scotland, they have not received last year's payment yet.

:59:37. > :59:42.They are at a particularly difficult point and are trying to recover from

:59:43. > :59:47.weather-related problems. It has to be said also that if you are farming

:59:48. > :59:50.in an alien not affected by flooding, the weather has been

:59:51. > :59:55.appalling and there have been impacted on people not directly

:59:56. > :59:58.affected by flooding to but those new Zealanders who have been

:59:59. > :00:02.directly affected by this could have seen their business washed away

:00:03. > :00:07.entirely. That is why we need more work from the government to make

:00:08. > :00:10.sure resources allocated by the UK Government which have come to

:00:11. > :00:14.Scotland through the Barnett formula are properly distributed. Hum of the

:00:15. > :00:19.things said by the First Minister yesterday suggests these things are

:00:20. > :00:23.happening but we did see a position earlier in the week where farmers in

:00:24. > :00:27.Cumbria were receiving support when people in Dumfries were not. Thank

:00:28. > :00:30.you for joining us. Listening to that is Conservative

:00:31. > :00:40.MEP Dr Ian Duncan, who's I think you intend to campaign to

:00:41. > :00:46.stay in Europe at a much irrespective of anything David

:00:47. > :00:49.Cameron comes up with? We have made significant progress during this

:00:50. > :00:53.period. I am a member of the European Parliament and it has been

:00:54. > :00:58.any 2% reduction in the laws passing through that particular payment.

:00:59. > :01:01.That is because of Britain doing less better. We are making

:01:02. > :01:06.substantial progress in reforming the EU. We are no longer standing

:01:07. > :01:09.alone when it comes to reform. If you look at other nations the word

:01:10. > :01:14.reform is now the forefront of their campaigning. You have actually

:01:15. > :01:19.gotten government now a number of parties who are ashamed and driving

:01:20. > :01:23.forward to reform the cause, after all, look where the EU is right now.

:01:24. > :01:30.It is calm. It is struggling to deal with its own feet of Rob 's. Whether

:01:31. > :01:35.in the Eurozone itself, the prices of the Mediterranean countries or

:01:36. > :01:40.the recent crises of migration. The bottom line is, if I asked you what

:01:41. > :01:46.are your red lines for David Cameron to negotiate? Your answer would be

:01:47. > :01:50.the are not any? There are red lines. I need to be sure keeping the

:01:51. > :01:55.pound is safe and we would not be compelled ever closer towards the

:01:56. > :01:59.union with other states. We need to be able to trust that going forward

:02:00. > :02:04.what we have now is protected and we can see that reform on the table but

:02:05. > :02:08.the leveraged the Prime Minister has secured by these negotiations and

:02:09. > :02:12.the referendum coming up it has led to a sea change in Brussels. The

:02:13. > :02:19.things you have mentioned can be pretty much met by some fine words.

:02:20. > :02:24.The issue of, for example, delays to benefit payments to immigrants, that

:02:25. > :02:28.is a much more hard issue. Is that a red line for you or do you not give

:02:29. > :02:34.further? Everything can be met by fine words but it is the force of

:02:35. > :02:39.law, we will need two CDs fine words enshrined in something binding, not

:02:40. > :02:43.just upon the UK but upon the role of the EU, only then can we be sure

:02:44. > :02:51.and save that we do have detection from being out with the Eurozone,

:02:52. > :02:55.and with the Schengen area. We will not consider the centrifugal force

:02:56. > :03:01.Dragon as ever closer to the centre. This is not just about Britain,

:03:02. > :03:06.member states across the EU are looking for the ability to do things

:03:07. > :03:13.differently, less and better. At the forefront is the United Kingdom. Do

:03:14. > :03:19.you think this should be a referendum on Europe? You think it

:03:20. > :03:23.is a good thing to have it? Is it a good thing to have it? I think the

:03:24. > :03:31.leveraging the EU has given more power in the negotiations. The SNP

:03:32. > :03:36.and Scottish Government have top about, should, by any chance,

:03:37. > :03:40.Britain vote no to Europe and Scotland vote yes, they would see

:03:41. > :03:45.that as justification for another independence referendum. What do you

:03:46. > :03:52.make of that argument? The SNP a national list party and they assert

:03:53. > :03:56.independence is a declared objective. I think any excuse would

:03:57. > :04:02.be fine to have that there can referendum. The Scottish National

:04:03. > :04:05.party and government did not give an to Orkney, Shetland, Dumfries and

:04:06. > :04:11.the oil anywhere else should they wish to remain part of the UK. The

:04:12. > :04:15.issue was that we remained part of the United Kingdom and this issue of

:04:16. > :04:21.whether the EU with the good, bad or indifferent, was very clearly aired.

:04:22. > :04:24.I do not think we can say we would be unsure what would happen if there

:04:25. > :04:31.was a referendum. We would be bound by the will of the people. Should

:04:32. > :04:35.that eventuality arise, do you think it would be justified for David

:04:36. > :04:38.Cameron and the British government, even Cameron has already said it

:04:39. > :04:44.would not be another independence referendum as long as yet the yen,

:04:45. > :04:47.would he be justified in those circumstances to say you have had

:04:48. > :04:53.your independence referendum and voted to stay in Britain. You might

:04:54. > :04:56.have voted to stay in the EU and we voted to go out but I will simply

:04:57. > :05:01.not allow another independence referendum? It was very clear during

:05:02. > :05:07.the last referendum we were told it would be once during a referendum

:05:08. > :05:12.but it is fast approaching. I do not doubt a party which thinks they are

:05:13. > :05:26.better out with the UK will continue to push for another referendum.

:05:27. > :05:30.voted right back should they say, if you want one then you can have

:05:31. > :05:35.another one? My opinion is that there will not be another

:05:36. > :05:38.independence referendum, that is the statement from the first Minister.

:05:39. > :05:43.They do not think that she will say that there will never be one, but at

:05:44. > :05:48.the same time we have one referendum coming and I do believe that we will

:05:49. > :05:52.vote to stay in and therefore the second question will not arise. At

:05:53. > :05:56.the nationalist government you will find another reason to have a second

:05:57. > :05:59.independence referendum, that is only a matter of time.

:06:00. > :06:01.It's been a few weeks since we were last here.

:06:02. > :06:04.Let's have a look at what's been happening and what's coming up

:06:05. > :06:12.Joining me is the Times Scotland editor, Lindsay McIntosh,

:06:13. > :06:21.and the Observer columnist Kevin McKenna.

:06:22. > :06:27.Lindsay, just on Europe, suddenly out of the blue everyone is talking

:06:28. > :06:33.about having this in a few weeks or months rather than next year. Yes,

:06:34. > :06:36.people are talking about June or October, September time. All of this

:06:37. > :06:41.is dependent on the kind of deal David Cameron is to get in this

:06:42. > :06:52.deadly meeting. If you can come out of that with something then he might

:06:53. > :07:03.say, go to the polls on June -- surgery meeting. It also presumably

:07:04. > :07:08.depends on the opinion polls? If you came back and said, I have a deal,

:07:09. > :07:14.and it was a big majority for staying in in the opinion polls, he

:07:15. > :07:19.might be tempted to say, let us just, right now, whereas if it is

:07:20. > :07:27.less predictable he might say, let us have a long campaign. He will

:07:28. > :07:33.look at the independence referendum campaign and issues that arose from

:07:34. > :07:38.a long campaign. That did his side and no favours. If you're looking at

:07:39. > :07:45.a site which has the wage to start with, they are interested in having

:07:46. > :07:48.a quick poll. Kevin, I know you do not necessarily regard yourself as a

:07:49. > :07:53.conservative vote who is in favour of leaving the EU, but the do

:07:54. > :07:56.deserve representation and listening to her two representatives there it

:07:57. > :08:02.does not look like they will get any. As you rightly observed

:08:03. > :08:08.earlier, the Tory vote in Scotland seems to be divided on this issue,

:08:09. > :08:10.there does not seem to be a clear majority one way or another amongst

:08:11. > :08:18.the rank-and-file Tories. But if you believe Ian Murray there will not be

:08:19. > :08:24.anybody standing up for a Labour voters... What David Cameron was

:08:25. > :08:30.seeing on Andrew Marr this morning, there does not appear to be any

:08:31. > :08:34.lead. David Cameron as saying, my government is going to campaign to

:08:35. > :08:39.stay in Europe, so all of the machinery of government will go for

:08:40. > :08:43.it, but you can have a free vote. But it seems to me that senior

:08:44. > :08:46.Conservative figures seem to be afraid to be too extreme one way or

:08:47. > :08:52.the other when they try to watch their language. If you are of two

:08:53. > :08:57.mains as a Conservative, there is very little leadership either way,

:08:58. > :09:00.there is no prevailing argument. This thing about, we will see what

:09:01. > :09:05.sort of deal David Cameron comes back with, we saw David Cameron

:09:06. > :09:10.during the week on first name terms with the Hungarian President, this

:09:11. > :09:14.being the Hungarian President who set himself up as some kind of

:09:15. > :09:21.Christian despot, invading Christendom and the West against the

:09:22. > :09:26.hordes of Islam a few months ago. I think it is getting quite confused

:09:27. > :09:29.and again, if I was a Conservative, I would be saying, you need to do

:09:30. > :09:35.better than that either side if you're going to get my vote one way

:09:36. > :09:38.or another. Lindsay, the Labour reshuffle, or you more in Pewsey

:09:39. > :09:46.Astec abated then Ian Murray? His language was interesting. John

:09:47. > :09:51.McDonnell coming out in front of the cameras and criticising process,

:09:52. > :10:02.saying things like right wing clique. He was seeing, we need to

:10:03. > :10:05.halt the rhetoric. He was the only possibility for the shadow Scottish

:10:06. > :10:11.Secretary, he can come out and say, this is what I think, without fear

:10:12. > :10:16.of his position. Have we resolved anything? I can see the narrow

:10:17. > :10:18.issue, that of Jeremy Corbyn once Labour to be unilateralist then he

:10:19. > :10:24.has taken place in the rate the rich. At this basic problem that the

:10:25. > :10:34.Conservatives have, is that really been resolved? Has been a lot of

:10:35. > :10:37.backbiting and briefing against people and it has not looked great

:10:38. > :10:42.and the public. A lot of language being used, words like disloyalty,

:10:43. > :10:46.it does not look right at all. What Jeremy Corbyn has done is a lot of

:10:47. > :10:54.empire building. He has got a stronger Shadow Cabinet, for good

:10:55. > :10:55.empire building. He has got a look like a stronger power in arenas

:10:56. > :10:59.like these ones. This is look like a stronger power in arenas

:11:00. > :11:06.recently, Kevin. The other way of look like a stronger power in arenas

:11:07. > :11:06.People inside politics care about this,

:11:07. > :11:18.great, we have a left-wing Labour Party. This was clearly flagged up

:11:19. > :11:22.with the result and conduct of the Labour leadership campaign. Jeremy

:11:23. > :11:25.Corbyn was not even expected to stand, and there were even less

:11:26. > :11:32.expectations that he would win by the huge majority that he did win

:11:33. > :11:34.by. Even then it was flagged up that the overwhelming majority of

:11:35. > :11:37.ordinary rank-and-file members in the country were backing him, but we

:11:38. > :11:41.ordinary rank-and-file members in knew he would have a problem

:11:42. > :11:45.the Parliamentary Party. We know that he has a

:11:46. > :11:46.the Parliamentary Party. We know Labour Party. People say,

:11:47. > :11:51.the Parliamentary Party. We know one thing, but these

:11:52. > :11:54.the Parliamentary Party. We know understand that one thing is having

:11:55. > :11:56.enough people to have a big mass demonstrations not the same as

:11:57. > :12:03.winning elections. But the Prince country are saying, this is

:12:04. > :12:08.interesting. Win we knew he would have a battle on his party with the

:12:09. > :12:13.leftovers of Tony Blair. This is being played out. Many people will

:12:14. > :12:16.say, what is the problem with trying to impose your authority, influence

:12:17. > :12:20.and command on your own party and cabinet? Some might say that the

:12:21. > :12:25.reason why there was a three-day process in the reshuffle was because

:12:26. > :12:28.he was being too nice. He was being too considerate, taking

:12:29. > :12:31.he was being too nice. He was being many people's views. I would not

:12:32. > :12:37.have expected David Cameron to give house room to anybody who showed the

:12:38. > :12:40.slightest sign of opposition within his Cabinet on serious issues.

:12:41. > :12:45.Jeremy Corbyn is just doing what he was or was going to do, it will take

:12:46. > :12:48.him off while and it will be at least two elections, possibly three,

:12:49. > :12:54.both in Scotland and England, before Labour will be in a position to

:12:55. > :12:58.govern anyway. There is a view which is taken by many Labour MPs that,

:12:59. > :13:04.look, all you no actress Labour Party will never when the general

:13:05. > :13:12.election -- unilateralist Labour Party. It was most effective in

:13:13. > :13:17.1997. That is not the party Jeremy Corbyn is being forward now. What

:13:18. > :13:21.happens to those people? That is not the Labour Party for them under

:13:22. > :13:28.Jeremy Corbyn. I think there is a lot of years in the wilderness for

:13:29. > :13:32.them. As Kevin said, would you agree with him that it is at least two

:13:33. > :13:36.elections away? It is looking like it at the moment, although goodness

:13:37. > :13:40.knows what is happening in that party at the moment, who might be

:13:41. > :13:44.coming forward. We are seeing names being bandied about as potential

:13:45. > :13:47.equivalents to Jeremy Corbyn. It will depend whether that arm of the

:13:48. > :13:55.party can get organisation behind it. That is all we have time for

:13:56. > :13:56.this week. I will be back next week. Until then, from all of us on the

:13:57. > :14:00.programme, goodbye.