:00:39. > :00:43.Was former London Mayor Ken Livingstone booted off
:00:44. > :00:46.Or, as Mr Livingstone claims, did he step down
:00:47. > :00:48.because he is at one on all defence matters with this lady,
:00:49. > :00:50.Labour's new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry.
:00:51. > :00:54.Like Mr Livingstone she's not a fan of Britain's
:00:55. > :01:08.David Cameron has a plan to deliver some rabbits from the hat in his
:01:09. > :01:13.renegotiation with Brussels. Another campaign has entered the fray on his
:01:14. > :01:19.site, led by former Euro Tory sceptic. As it hots up, we will be
:01:20. > :01:24.talking to a man who wants to be out, Nigel Farage and a man who
:01:25. > :01:32.wants to stay in, Ken Clarke. Donald Trump and his former charm, Alex
:01:33. > :01:35.Salmond, have been expending the week exchanging pleasantries. We'll
:01:36. > :01:39.We'll be talking to the former First Minister of Scotland.
:01:40. > :01:45.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotand:
:01:46. > :01:53.What will it mean to communities in the capital?
:01:54. > :01:55.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:56. > :01:59.I won't have a nasty word said against them.
:02:00. > :02:01.Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting
:02:02. > :02:12.So first today let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn,
:02:13. > :02:15.who gave a wide-ranging interview on the Marr show a little earlier.
:02:16. > :02:17.My question, with respect, was about sympathy action
:02:18. > :02:19.and whether you would remove that legislation.
:02:20. > :02:22.Sympathy action is legal in most other countries and I think it
:02:23. > :02:23.should also be legal here. But remember this...
:02:24. > :02:25.So you would repeal those Tory laws?
:02:26. > :02:27.Yes, of course. Nobody willingly goes on strike.
:02:28. > :02:29.They go on strike as an ultimate weapon.
:02:30. > :02:31.The number of strikes is actually very small.
:02:32. > :02:33.It's an ultimate weapon that is used.
:02:34. > :02:35.Anyone that is going on strike is making an enormous sacrifice.
:02:36. > :02:38.They don't get paid, they suffer a great deal as a result
:02:39. > :02:42.of it, so let's look at the causes of people being upset rather
:02:43. > :02:59.A policy packed interview with Andrew Marr on the Falklands,
:03:00. > :03:04.Islamic State, secondary striking, even on the idea maybe we could keep
:03:05. > :03:12.Trident but not any missile warheads on the missiles. I felt nostalgic. I
:03:13. > :03:17.was back to a teenager in the 1980s, I remember these arguments in the
:03:18. > :03:23.1980s and Michael foot put them in the manifesto for the 1983 election.
:03:24. > :03:32.He was robust on the Falkland Islands. He was. The point for
:03:33. > :03:37.Jeremy Corbyn is he has a mandate from the party to put forward these
:03:38. > :03:43.arguments. He had a 60% vote and it is clear what he thinks of nuclear
:03:44. > :03:48.weapons. He has been a member of CND since 1966. The challenge for Jeremy
:03:49. > :03:52.Corbyn is to put forward ideas in a way that appeals beyond new members
:03:53. > :03:58.of the Labour Party to the electorate as a whole who have
:03:59. > :04:02.concerns about security of the nation, for example, possibly having
:04:03. > :04:06.successor submarines of the Trident system without nuclear weapons. That
:04:07. > :04:12.is the Japanese system, they talk in Japan how they have what is known as
:04:13. > :04:15.the bomb in the basement. They are a non-declared nuclear state but could
:04:16. > :04:19.arm themselves with nuclear weapons within minutes if needed. That is
:04:20. > :04:23.what he is talking about. Sounds good in the leg party but he needs
:04:24. > :04:30.to sell it to the country as a whole. It is clear a lot of what
:04:31. > :04:33.Jeremy Corbyn says has the support of the grassroots, particularly the
:04:34. > :04:37.new ones who have joined the party. It is clear a lot of this does not
:04:38. > :04:41.have the support of the Parliamentary Labour Party. That is
:04:42. > :04:47.the constant problem yet to be squared. I cannot see a way it will
:04:48. > :04:54.be squared. I do not think many Labour MPs can either. His problem
:04:55. > :04:58.is admirable, it is he is determined not to remove himself from things
:04:59. > :05:04.said in the past. On the Falklands he is consistent with what he said
:05:05. > :05:09.in 2013, when it did not matter, and how he is now repeating those views.
:05:10. > :05:13.The problem is now Jeremy Corbyn matters and if you look at the
:05:14. > :05:18.Falklands, the last time there was a vote of those on the Falkland
:05:19. > :05:21.Islands, only three voted to change the system of administration, so he
:05:22. > :05:28.is out of step with people living there. He sets out his left-wing
:05:29. > :05:34.stall on these issues. Bit by bit, he is taking his time, doing it
:05:35. > :05:37.astutely. He is taking the lead party in his direction, part of the
:05:38. > :05:47.purpose I would suggest of the interview will stop no one could
:05:48. > :05:51.question that. If you go into a general election with a leader who
:05:52. > :05:57.says something like, let's have the return of secondary picketing, and
:05:58. > :06:01.that is not the worst idea in the manifesto, also talking about
:06:02. > :06:05.renewing the vanguard submarines without warheads and I think he
:06:06. > :06:08.floated the idea of reasonable accommodation with Argentina on the
:06:09. > :06:13.Falklands, he would go to the election knowing you have a white,
:06:14. > :06:19.working-class base, which is already flirting with Ukip. How low can
:06:20. > :06:23.Labour Singh? Technically it is impossible to get rid of him but
:06:24. > :06:28.maybe politics is like water and finds a way to go around obstacles.
:06:29. > :06:33.And if his ideas turn out to be popular? I think they will be
:06:34. > :06:39.popular with the membership at every general election since 1983 would
:06:40. > :06:43.suggest to us these ideas are outside the mainstream. Jeremy
:06:44. > :06:46.Corbyn says there is a new world out there, I tapped into that in the
:06:47. > :06:51.campaign, with thousands packing up meetings. We have the electoral test
:06:52. > :06:59.in May, let's see how the ideas go down outside the party. Should
:07:00. > :07:02.written keep its nuclear deterrent? -- Great Britain.
:07:03. > :07:04.Jeremy Corbyn doesn't think so and neither
:07:05. > :07:06.does his new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry,
:07:07. > :07:08.who we'll be talking to in just a minute.
:07:09. > :07:11.But first here's Adam on a multi-billion-pound question.
:07:12. > :07:16.The Imperial War Museum is showing the work of artist Peter Kennard,
:07:17. > :07:19.the creator of some of the starkest images of the campaign
:07:20. > :07:32.This was in 1980, this is when cruise missiles were coming
:07:33. > :07:34.to Britain and the idea was they were going to circulate
:07:35. > :07:38.It's coming back into fashion because some time this year
:07:39. > :07:42.the Government is expected to hold a Parliamentary vote
:07:43. > :07:45.on whether to build a new generation of submarines to carry
:07:46. > :07:52.The issue is dogging Labour, as Jeremy Corbyn made his first
:07:53. > :07:54.speech of the year at the Fabian's campaign group conference.
:07:55. > :07:57.I thank you very much for inviting me here today.
:07:58. > :08:03.Jeremy Corbyn's speech focused on energy, Europe, rail prices...
:08:04. > :08:06.no mention of Trident, which he has campaigned
:08:07. > :08:12.The issue is - not all of his MPs agree with him.
:08:13. > :08:15.My view at the moment is that the case in favour
:08:16. > :08:18.of retaining is stronger than the case against,
:08:19. > :08:21.but I think it's important we review this and look at all the options.
:08:22. > :08:23.I'm in favour of keeping our nuclear deterrent.
:08:24. > :08:25.I think it's important for keeping our country safe.
:08:26. > :08:28.It's Labour Party policy, I hope it will stay that way.
:08:29. > :08:30.Have you had an argument with Jeremy about it yet?
:08:31. > :08:34.Definitely arguing with Jeremy this week, the boss of the GMB union,
:08:35. > :08:37.who says building new subs will safeguard thousands of jobs
:08:38. > :08:41.in places like Barrow, where they're built.
:08:42. > :08:45.If anybody thinks that unions like the GMB are going to go quietly
:08:46. > :08:49.into the night while tens of thousands of our members' jobs
:08:50. > :08:51.are literally swaneed away by rhetoric, then they have
:08:52. > :08:59.Meet the woman who's got to reconcile the two tribes,
:09:00. > :09:01.the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, a critic
:09:02. > :09:06.of Trident who's doing the party's defence review.
:09:07. > :09:10.But it's turning into a row about how Labour makes policy.
:09:11. > :09:13.On one side, the people who feel the decision should be made by
:09:14. > :09:20.We have a national policy forum, we have a process where the papers
:09:21. > :09:24.go to our conference and are voted on.
:09:25. > :09:28.They involve trade unionists, they involve affiliated
:09:29. > :09:35.John Landsman, who campaigns for a bigger role for party
:09:36. > :09:37.activists and founded the Corbynite group Momentum,
:09:38. > :09:44.I'm not convinced the Government has to have a vote at all,
:09:45. > :09:48.but if it decides to have a vote we obviously need to have taken some
:09:49. > :09:50.soundings among party members and affiliates about what they think
:09:51. > :09:55.So, Labour Party policy on Trident could change by the summer?
:09:56. > :09:58.We will have had some process to consider our policy
:09:59. > :10:03.before the summer, yes, obviously, we have to.
:10:04. > :10:06.So Labour Party policy, when it comes to a vote,
:10:07. > :10:11.by the summer could be voting against the renewal of Trident?
:10:12. > :10:16.Look, I know that you're trying to get me to say very briefly,
:10:17. > :10:20.you know, something very quick about how policy is made
:10:21. > :10:24.in our party, the trouble is it's quite a complex process.
:10:25. > :10:27.Policy is ultimately decided by party conference
:10:28. > :10:30.in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party but if we have to take quicker
:10:31. > :10:40.decisions, we have to do it by other methods.
:10:41. > :10:43.That might drive some Labour people into meltdown.
:10:44. > :10:46.It could be war, not just over whether Labour supports the renewal
:10:47. > :10:53.of Trident, but also who gets to make the decision.
:10:54. > :10:57.And with me now, the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry.
:10:58. > :11:09.Welcome. Did you drop Ken Livingstone from the defence review?
:11:10. > :11:13.No, it was going to be my review and when I spoke to Jeremy about it I
:11:14. > :11:16.said it was an honour to take an extraordinary job, to be able to
:11:17. > :11:21.shadow a department where people are prepared to put their lives on the
:11:22. > :11:26.line. Was he part of the defence review already? I said I would lead
:11:27. > :11:32.the review and it will be my review, and it will feed into international
:11:33. > :11:41.policy commission, co-chaired by Ken Livingstone, which will feed into
:11:42. > :11:43.the national policy forum which will then feed into party conference. Mr
:11:44. > :11:46.Livingstone said on defence matters he had lunch with you and you agree
:11:47. > :11:51.on everything on the defence side and so voluntarily stepped aside, is
:11:52. > :11:56.that true? I am a big fan of Ken Livingstone, that is not a secret, I
:11:57. > :12:01.am also against Trident. I come in as a sceptic and also with the
:12:02. > :12:06.ambition to listen to what people say, to be not afraid to ask
:12:07. > :12:13.difficult questions and to come to a view on policy on the basis of
:12:14. > :12:17.evidence. Did he step aside because you broadly agreed on defence
:12:18. > :12:21.matters? Jeremy Corbyn put me in charge of the review and that is
:12:22. > :12:26.what happened. Did Mr Livingstone step aside as he said? He is chair
:12:27. > :12:31.of the commission I will be feeding my review into. I understand. Do you
:12:32. > :12:36.agree on everything when it comes to defence? I agree with a lot Ken
:12:37. > :12:41.Livingstone says but I do not agree we should pull out of Nato and I
:12:42. > :12:46.will not review this on the basis of us changing any international
:12:47. > :12:51.agreements or organisations we are signed up to. The review will take
:12:52. > :12:55.place within the context of our continued membership of Nato? That
:12:56. > :13:01.is right. On Trident? Ken Livingstone is against renewing
:13:02. > :13:06.Trident. That has been your position. I think the days of
:13:07. > :13:11.unilateral, multilateral, all of this sort of thing is from the
:13:12. > :13:15.1980s. We should look at what are the 21st-century threats to Britain
:13:16. > :13:19.and how should we best address them? It seems that is the best way to do
:13:20. > :13:24.it, look at the threats and what is the best way of addressing that.
:13:25. > :13:31.What I am more than anything is a moderniser. You voted against
:13:32. > :13:36.renewal of Trident in 2007. Do you know what, in the 80s, I was in
:13:37. > :13:42.favour of Trident because there were two macro sides, life was different,
:13:43. > :13:46.but life has moved on since 2007. Certainly since the 1980s, and I
:13:47. > :13:50.think the time has come for us to have a debate about what the
:13:51. > :13:56.21st-century threats are, which includes whether or not it is the
:13:57. > :14:01.appropriate response. What would change your mind? What could you be
:14:02. > :14:08.told about Trident that would make you think we should keep it? Good
:14:09. > :14:14.days and want to go into it with an days and want to go into it with an
:14:15. > :14:19.open mind and look at evidence. You are against Trident? I am in favour
:14:20. > :14:23.of making policy on the basis of evidence put before me and I have
:14:24. > :14:27.had a large number of invitations to talk to people and pick their
:14:28. > :14:34.brains. I want to be able to do that and bring the party with me. Are you
:14:35. > :14:42.against drone strikes? No, I think in the future the role of drones is
:14:43. > :14:49.likely to increase, under the sea and for air strikes. When you were
:14:50. > :14:53.shadow Attorney General, did you question the legality under
:14:54. > :14:56.international law? This is quite difficult, because the advice I gave
:14:57. > :15:06.to the leaders... You have got that wrong. I was asking a question.
:15:07. > :15:13.Have you questioned their legality or not? There is a difference
:15:14. > :15:17.between their use and bare existence so therefore... I'm so sorry but
:15:18. > :15:22.it's legally privileged and I cannot talk about advice I gave to the
:15:23. > :15:30.leader. All right but you can talk to the electorate. Would you support
:15:31. > :15:33.the use of drone strikes? I would support the use of whatever means
:15:34. > :15:38.are necessary to keep the British people safe. Including drone
:15:39. > :15:44.strikes? Yes, within the confines of the law. Do you have an end date
:15:45. > :15:50.when you think you have got to have the review done by? No, I don't want
:15:51. > :15:56.the strategic review to be anything like the Tories' which was very
:15:57. > :16:00.short. They opened a website and only allowed people to put 200 words
:16:01. > :16:08.in and in my view didn't look at it properly so it will take as long as
:16:09. > :16:12.it takes. I have a lot to look at. I understand, we have a lot of ground
:16:13. > :16:17.to cover and we don't have a lot of time this morning. In the meantime
:16:18. > :16:20.it's almost certain there will be a major vote on Trident, which begins
:16:21. > :16:26.the real spending on the renewal some time in the spring. What will
:16:27. > :16:31.happen to Labour? Will you be whipped to vote in favour of current
:16:32. > :16:40.party policy, which is pro-Trident? Will you be encouraging to -- people
:16:41. > :16:45.to vote against it? The first question is, are they going to have
:16:46. > :16:50.a vote, are they going to have a vote in the spring, and what will
:16:51. > :16:58.the vote be? Will we have the Treasury and the MoD agreeing? If
:16:59. > :17:03.there is a main gate proposal, comes forward to the Commons, how will you
:17:04. > :17:07.vote? The rumour is they are not going to have anything more than
:17:08. > :17:12.another vote in principle on whether or not we should renew Trident.
:17:13. > :17:16.Pro-Trident people should be angry about that because we had a vote
:17:17. > :17:22.about that in 2007, what have they been doing all this time? Labour
:17:23. > :17:26.policy is to have a continual artsy deterrent but to have a review. We
:17:27. > :17:37.are in the process of having a review, we need to look at when the
:17:38. > :17:39.vote is, what it is about, then I will have a discussion with Jeremy
:17:40. > :17:42.and the Chief Whip and did -- decision will be made. Jeremy has
:17:43. > :17:46.said he wants macro to accommodate differences in views and I have said
:17:47. > :17:52.my review has got to be done in an atmosphere of trust and respect. So
:17:53. > :17:55.it will be a free vote. What do you say to those who say when it comes
:17:56. > :18:01.to the Trident part of the defence review that it is a sham, that you
:18:02. > :18:06.have replaced Maria Eagle who was pro-Trident. Your leader is a
:18:07. > :18:11.lifelong unilateral disarmament. The party grass roots is increasingly
:18:12. > :18:16.hostile to Trident, so the chances of this recommending anything other
:18:17. > :18:20.than don't renew Trident is pretty impossible. I will begin this review
:18:21. > :18:27.by looking at the threat to Britain because my overriding responsibility
:18:28. > :18:33.is to make sure it is in line with what keeps Britain safe. We will
:18:34. > :18:38.take it as the evidence takes us. That is how we will approach it.
:18:39. > :18:42.Jeremy has already said, he said in the last few days that it may be
:18:43. > :18:46.this won't be a binary decision, things are not must rarely black and
:18:47. > :18:52.white any more, we are not going to the 1980s. What do you make of this
:18:53. > :18:56.idea that he floated on the Andrew Marr Show this morning that we could
:18:57. > :19:01.maybe renew Trident but not put warheads on the missiles? The
:19:02. > :19:07.Japanese option, that is certainly one thing that needs to be looked
:19:08. > :19:11.at. What would be the point? I'm not saying this is what we are going to
:19:12. > :19:16.do, but the way that it works is that the Japanese have got the
:19:17. > :19:25.capability to build a nuclear bomb if they need to, but you can then
:19:26. > :19:30.use them in various delivery forms. That's a possibility, it is an
:19:31. > :19:37.option. So you put the eventual warheads onto Trident submarines?
:19:38. > :19:41.Trident missiles? I appreciate that you want me to speculate and I
:19:42. > :19:49.understand that. Your leader spoke about it this morning. I have said
:19:50. > :19:54.there are of options. When you file a ballistic missile at a country,
:19:55. > :19:58.every early warning ballistic missile system will assume that is
:19:59. > :20:03.an attack because ballistic missile is only carry nuclear weapons so we
:20:04. > :20:10.will risk retaliation for something that is not using nuclear weapons,
:20:11. > :20:17.isn't that very dangerous? You are welcome to take part in my review. I
:20:18. > :20:23.am a kind of busy on the day job. Do you think the party membership
:20:24. > :20:27.should determine Trident policy, not just be consulting on it, which I
:20:28. > :20:31.know you'll want to do, but should they determined in the end such
:20:32. > :20:36.important issue? Party conference will decide what our policy is. I
:20:37. > :20:40.would like to have a review that will have party members feeding into
:20:41. > :20:46.it, feeding into their views in a way we have not had before and I
:20:47. > :20:49.will encourage that. You weren't in the end have a vote among party
:20:50. > :20:56.members to determine your policy? Our rules are that party conference
:20:57. > :21:04.decides our policy. Do you think you will have your ducks in a row by the
:21:05. > :21:10.time of this year's party conference? If I can help the
:21:11. > :21:15.national policy Forum by doing an interim report, I will do so. What
:21:16. > :21:18.do you say to the trade union leaders who say you will put
:21:19. > :21:24.thousands of jobs at risk if you don't renew Trident? I say I will
:21:25. > :21:29.listen to what they say and I will look at whether there are other
:21:30. > :21:34.alternatives. I understand, and I fully respect the concerns that have
:21:35. > :21:39.been raised so we need to look at whether there are solutions to that.
:21:40. > :21:44.You have taken substantial donations from a law firm that support clients
:21:45. > :21:50.that took the British Army to court on what turned out to be deliberate
:21:51. > :21:55.and miscalculated lies, holy and entirely without merit, where the
:21:56. > :22:06.accusations against the army. Should you return that? What happened was
:22:07. > :22:09.that Lee Day seconded people to my office because when your shadow
:22:10. > :22:19.Attorney General you don't have any resources at all. You didn't get
:22:20. > :22:22.?14,500 in donations? No, so I got very good bright lawyers and I have
:22:23. > :22:29.returned all of them and they were very good and they helped us be a
:22:30. > :22:33.good opposition. So there is no money to return? There is no money
:22:34. > :22:38.to return and it was a pleasure to have them in my office, they were
:22:39. > :22:42.very helpful to the Labour Party and interned to the country. We were
:22:43. > :22:49.summarising legislation, helping with clauses, giving advice to the
:22:50. > :23:00.leaders' office. Unfortunately the Government will now even cut the
:23:01. > :23:04.money. Will you come back when your review is complete? Any time. We
:23:05. > :23:06.will hold you to that. Now to the European Union
:23:07. > :23:08.and Britain's membership of it. George Osborne appeared
:23:09. > :23:10.quietly confident this week about the Government's chances
:23:11. > :23:12.of impressing voters with the deal it gets from Brussels,
:23:13. > :23:14.and even the European President, Jean-Claude Junker, appeared more
:23:15. > :23:16.upbeat about the prospects Not good news for
:23:17. > :23:19.those who want out? But they'll be buoyed by one poll
:23:20. > :23:24.this morning that puts the "out" This morning there's news of another
:23:25. > :23:28.group on the pro-EU campaign trail. The question may be fairly simple
:23:29. > :23:37.but there are rather a lot of different campaigns
:23:38. > :23:40.trying to bend our ears. On the side of those
:23:41. > :23:43.who want us out of the EU, there's the Vote Leave campaign
:23:44. > :23:48.headed by Dominic Cummings and Matthew Elliott,
:23:49. > :23:50.who ran the successful They're also linked
:23:51. > :23:53.to Business For Britain, which has the support of a number
:23:54. > :23:57.of leading business figures, and to the groups Labour Leave
:23:58. > :24:00.and Conservatives For Britain, Also campaigning for Brexit
:24:01. > :24:06.is Leave.EU, which has links to Ukip and is funded by the Ukip donor
:24:07. > :24:10.Arron Banks. They're vying with the Vote Leave
:24:11. > :24:13.campaign to be the officially And to top it all, there is now Go,
:24:14. > :24:27.a new grass-roots group made up of MPs including Kate Hoey
:24:28. > :24:29.and David Davis which is designed to coordinate campaigning
:24:30. > :24:30.on the ground. On the other side, the main group
:24:31. > :24:34.is the Britain Stronger In Europe, headed by the former Marks
:24:35. > :24:36.Spencer's boss Sir Stuart Rose. Then there's Business
:24:37. > :24:39.For New Europe, led by Roland Rudd, Labour Yes, led by Alan Johnson,
:24:40. > :24:43.and now there's a new group set up by the Tory MP Nick Herbert,
:24:44. > :24:44.called Conservatives Even though some of the members
:24:45. > :24:52.are Eurosceptics, they say they will support David Cameron's
:24:53. > :24:54.renegotiation and will vote to remain inside the EU
:24:55. > :24:58.if he's successful. Expect a few leaflets
:24:59. > :25:00.through your door in the next And with us now is the Ukip
:25:01. > :25:18.leader, Nigel Farage. With even staunch Eurosceptic MPs
:25:19. > :25:24.like Nick Herbert campaigning to stay in, don't you worry the tide of
:25:25. > :25:29.opinion is moving away from you and tour was David Cameron? I would
:25:30. > :25:37.never regard Nick Herbert as a staunch Eurosceptic. He campaigned
:25:38. > :25:48.to keep the pound, he was paid to do it. He has never once advocated
:25:49. > :25:52.Britain should leave the EU so he is doing a job bolstering the Prime
:25:53. > :25:57.Minister. There was lots of speculation, will Boris Johnson back
:25:58. > :26:05.the outcome pain? What do you think? I don't know. Not Michael Gove, we
:26:06. > :26:11.know now. I suspect lots of senior politicians will put their careers
:26:12. > :26:17.before their conscience and back the Prime Minister. I am beginning to
:26:18. > :26:22.see this referendum as the people versus the politicians, it might not
:26:23. > :26:26.matter. Except your own side continues to be riven by
:26:27. > :26:30.factionalism. We have vote to leave, Leave.EU, and they seem to be
:26:31. > :26:36.spending more time attacking each other than the common enemy. You
:26:37. > :26:40.have these groups vying to be the official bumbler group. I've been
:26:41. > :26:43.trying to support both of the organisations, though I have to say
:26:44. > :26:47.when I listen to Dominic Cummings on Friday... Who is on Vote Leave I
:26:48. > :26:54.believe. Yes, and suddenly they are Friday... Who is on Vote Leave I
:26:55. > :27:03.talking about a two referendum strategy which I don't like the look
:27:04. > :27:09.of one little bit. Why not? The argue was, we can vote to come out
:27:10. > :27:12.and then Europe will panic and make us an offer which will be
:27:13. > :27:17.effectively associated membership and we could vote on that. We
:27:18. > :27:21.effectively have that now, we had that since the euro was created. Dan
:27:22. > :27:26.Harmon has criticised every government that has lost a
:27:27. > :27:34.referendum. After the interview I saw the other day I wasn't sure.
:27:35. > :27:42.There is now a third group called Go. It does lend itself to jokes
:27:43. > :27:49.about the Judaean people's struggle. The point about Go is that it is
:27:50. > :27:55.there to break the deadlock, and next Saturday there will be
:27:56. > :27:59.Conservatives, Labour, Ukip and DUP sharing a public platform. There's a
:28:00. > :28:04.big auditorium with 2000 people coming and we will start the ground
:28:05. > :28:12.campaign in earnest. Should Vote Leave and Leave.EU amalgamate? Of
:28:13. > :28:15.course. Leave.EU are brilliant at mass-marketing. Vote Leave are
:28:16. > :28:20.Westminster -based group of people with some fantastic links to the
:28:21. > :28:25.business community, some great academic back-up. They would be
:28:26. > :28:30.complimentary, not contradictory. Meanwhile, as you still struggle to
:28:31. > :28:38.get a united front, if I can put it like that, perhaps the United front
:28:39. > :28:46.of the Judaean people's struggle... I would suggest from the better
:28:47. > :28:54.together project, which proved so effective in the Scottish
:28:55. > :29:09.referendum, shouldn't you fear Project Fear? Even Project Fear has
:29:10. > :29:17.a problem because a Scottish minister said all of the big
:29:18. > :29:23.businesses would leave Britain, but we would maintain our manufacturing
:29:24. > :29:26.bases. Even though if we stay in there will be some uncertainty as
:29:27. > :29:31.the euro zone becomes more united and we are likely to be part of
:29:32. > :29:36.that, so you cannot be sure of the future, no one on your side can tell
:29:37. > :29:39.us if we come out what will our status beach? What will our
:29:40. > :29:44.relationship be? Because you have lots of differences. We have a whole
:29:45. > :29:47.range of options. There are countries all over the world with
:29:48. > :29:52.different relationships, the Swiss have bilateral relationships the
:29:53. > :29:56.Norwegians have a relationship with the economic area. We are the
:29:57. > :30:02.biggest trading partner the has in the world, trading at a vast trading
:30:03. > :30:03.deficit. We want a British deal based on trade, cooperation and
:30:04. > :30:14.nothing more. There is still the uncertainty as to
:30:15. > :30:17.whether you can deliver. Every German car manufacturer, every
:30:18. > :30:23.producer, will insist we do that deal as quickly as possible. You
:30:24. > :30:32.hold that but it is uncertain. Under the terms of the treaties, on day
:30:33. > :30:35.one nothing would change, we would have access to markets during the
:30:36. > :30:41.time we renegotiate the British deal. Do you feel the ground moving
:30:42. > :30:45.on to you as the forces of the British state, Alex Salmond felt the
:30:46. > :30:50.same with the Scottish referendum, it is a formidable force and you are
:30:51. > :30:54.up against it? In terms of our political class, yes, I think the
:30:55. > :31:00.chances of many people currently in senior positions in politics,
:31:01. > :31:04.perhaps they diminish, inevitably, but you cannot take away from
:31:05. > :31:08.ordinary folk scene such as Cologne and saying to themselves, in three
:31:09. > :31:13.years, all of these people will have EU passports and be able to come to
:31:14. > :31:17.Britain. This campaign will be the people against the politicians and
:31:18. > :31:20.the more the politicians clubbed together, perhaps more the people
:31:21. > :31:26.will choose to vote against them. In any possibility of a relationship
:31:27. > :31:29.with the EU out, will almost certainly involve continued free
:31:30. > :31:34.movement and these people may well still be able to come to this
:31:35. > :31:38.country under any deal you reach? We have free trade deals all over the
:31:39. > :31:46.world that don't involve the free movement of people, it is only in
:31:47. > :31:51.Europe we have the free -- pretence that we have to have free movement
:31:52. > :31:55.of people. I want to control our borders and have an Australian style
:31:56. > :31:58.points system where we can judge whether people will make a positive
:31:59. > :32:03.contribution to society and I cannot do that as a member of the EU. You
:32:04. > :32:16.have not had the best of times, since the election. It culminated in
:32:17. > :32:21.what you designated a car breakdown as an assassination attempt. Has
:32:22. > :32:25.that undermined, as the most famous person on the outcome paying, has it
:32:26. > :32:31.undermined your credibility? I do not think it does. To say we have
:32:32. > :32:35.had a tough time, it is interesting, Ukip has been written off by every
:32:36. > :32:45.commentator in Fleet Street but the latest poll had us at 17%. The most
:32:46. > :32:50.important issue, immigration, we are the most trusted party on 29% and we
:32:51. > :32:54.go into this year with the expectation of winning seats in
:32:55. > :32:55.Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and playing a big role in this
:32:56. > :32:57.referendum. Let's talk now to former
:32:58. > :33:10.Conservative Chancellor, Are you in any doubt the Prime
:33:11. > :33:14.Minister is going to be the enthusiastic leader of the campaign
:33:15. > :33:20.to remain in the EU? I think you will, because all the news, although
:33:21. > :33:25.it is not really news, a lot of it is rumoured, is he will come back
:33:26. > :33:28.with a reasonable deal. He has already got the things he first
:33:29. > :33:33.talked about in the bag when he first announced he was going to have
:33:34. > :33:37.a referendum and seek reforms. He has added one or two more. Nobody
:33:38. > :33:41.knows the final deal but they are close to getting one and the debate
:33:42. > :33:48.is getting more serious and I think David will advocate staying in. He
:33:49. > :33:52.will put it, a reformed European union. Given this was the
:33:53. > :33:58.predictable outcome, is the referendum process, promoted by
:33:59. > :34:07.David Cameron, worth the candle? We shall see. You can see now, is it or
:34:08. > :34:10.not? Wait for the outcome, which will determine the effect of the
:34:11. > :34:17.referendum on British politics and the economy. All politicians of my
:34:18. > :34:21.generation did not think a referendum was a good way to run a
:34:22. > :34:28.modern, sophisticated country. You wish she had not done it? I do not
:34:29. > :34:33.think anybody thinks... I was in favour of calling a referendum.
:34:34. > :34:37.Margaret Thatcher denounced referendums in stronger terms than I
:34:38. > :34:41.have and they are a gamble and I do not think the Scottish one has
:34:42. > :35:26.resolved the Scottish independence issue. Let me come on to Scotland.
:35:27. > :35:34.It is complicated and sometimes frightening. Our nations are now
:35:35. > :35:39.ended on each other. We will be modern and independent state. --
:35:40. > :35:45.dependent state. It'll be more moderate everything in. It is said
:35:46. > :35:50.that Nigel Farage is a parody of a right wing nationalist, on both
:35:51. > :35:57.sides, people are inclined to say there will be calamity if we leave.
:35:58. > :36:03.There is huge uncertainty if we leave. I personally, strongly
:36:04. > :36:10.believe that my grandchildren will discover... I understand. We know
:36:11. > :36:13.you want to stay in so I want to ask you some questions about that. If we
:36:14. > :36:17.do want to remain, should our membership of the euro, at some
:36:18. > :36:23.stage, come back to the agenda? I don't think it will in my lifetime.
:36:24. > :36:30.Should it? The euro has got to be reformed. The crisis has still not
:36:31. > :36:36.been sorted. Should come back onto the British agenda? In your I am not
:36:37. > :36:46.going to start forecasting the future. I do believe that, if you
:36:47. > :36:50.have a single market, this is an a trade deal, if you have a single
:36:51. > :37:00.market, there is a single means of exchange. They made a mess of the
:37:01. > :37:05.euro, they did not run properly. We may find that if we do want the same
:37:06. > :37:10.currency, I can't tell. Do you worry? You're very pro-European. You
:37:11. > :37:16.can be critical of it but do you worry now that, any future, every
:37:17. > :37:22.vote to stay in, the future of the EU will very much we watch takes
:37:23. > :37:27.place inside the Eurozone? That there will be, on the periphery, a
:37:28. > :37:35.country club member? Does that worry It did when we started. There really
:37:36. > :37:40.was an issue that needed to be addressed. We are always there, I
:37:41. > :37:44.think. What we did not want is the decision of the British and one or
:37:45. > :37:49.two others who will never join any foreseeable future, not to join. The
:37:50. > :37:52.single currency was going to make a second-class citizens. The Eurozone
:37:53. > :38:03.group should not start deciding things that adversely affected us. I
:38:04. > :38:06.think it is nearly there. My understanding is, I am not directly
:38:07. > :38:10.involved but I have been to Brussels a bit, I think it is is the most
:38:11. > :38:21.important point. It will not feature in this campaign. They are really
:38:22. > :38:24.important things, things that people like me was wanted. We have run out
:38:25. > :38:27.of time but we do thank you for the short interview this morning. We
:38:28. > :38:37.will come back you as the debate progresses. Just gone 11 30 5am. We
:38:38. > :38:40.now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday
:38:41. > :38:43.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:38:44. > :38:47.Unite boss Len McCluskey says the union will give its unequivocal
:38:48. > :38:49.backing to Labour in the May elections.
:38:50. > :38:53.And to staying in Europe Professor Anton Muscatelli is speaking to us
:38:54. > :38:56.live about the biggest educational project in Scotland and his work
:38:57. > :39:02.This road in Corstophine in Edinburgh is Scotland's most
:39:03. > :39:04.polluted - how is it linked to a deferred vote
:39:05. > :39:13.Now - in the independence referendum campaign Unite the Union,
:39:14. > :39:17.as it likes to call itself - sat on the fence.
:39:18. > :39:19.Its argument was that so many of its members wanted
:39:20. > :39:21.independence it didn't want to split the union.
:39:22. > :39:27.The general secretary, Len McCluskey, said yesterday that
:39:28. > :39:30.about 60% of his members in Scotland voted SNP in the general
:39:31. > :39:34.So, would Unite call for an SNP vote in May,
:39:35. > :39:37.Well, I spoke to Mr McCluskey earlier.
:39:38. > :39:40.I began by asking him about one of his other recent suggestions -
:39:41. > :39:47.that Labour should apologise to the people of Scotland.
:39:48. > :39:54.I think what I was trying to say is that the ideology of new Labour,
:39:55. > :40:01.which is pretty prevalent in some of the leaders within Scottish Labour,
:40:02. > :40:08.is that its drives Scottish working people away from Labour and towards
:40:09. > :40:15.the S and P. Perhaps calling for an apology... -- SNP. We now have to
:40:16. > :40:19.say that Labour is under new management so we have to regain your
:40:20. > :40:25.trust and we have to try to make certain that Labour is once again
:40:26. > :40:28.seen as the side of ordinary working people. Evidently, over a long
:40:29. > :40:34.period of time, Scottish Labour lost that trust. It manifested itself on
:40:35. > :40:39.the 7th of May last year and a way that was quite staggering. Yes, we
:40:40. > :40:43.have to be honest and we have to understand what the Scottish
:40:44. > :40:46.working-class are telling us. Now, Nicola Sturgeon, I believe, is
:40:47. > :40:53.seeking at your conference later today. The SNP governments here say
:40:54. > :41:00.they are fighting Tory austerity. Scottish Labour said they are
:41:01. > :41:07.fighting issues like social care and catalogue authorities. The SNP, you
:41:08. > :41:14.say, are implementing it. Which side are you on? I am on the side of the
:41:15. > :41:19.Labour Party. What we have to do with the SNP is the gain to
:41:20. > :41:25.Labour Party. What we have to do scrutinise what the SNP are doing.
:41:26. > :41:33.The reality is that, we need to see, is there a difference between
:41:34. > :41:42.rhetoric and reality? The SNP say that there may be, they have been
:41:43. > :41:47.very pro-union -- they have to turn some of that rhetoric into policy,
:41:48. > :41:53.and to practical policy. We want to see that being more active in
:41:54. > :41:57.opposing the austerity that has been imposed by the Westminster
:41:58. > :42:03.governments. Rather than just blaming Westminster, we want a
:42:04. > :42:09.practical example of how they can oppose this. They want to change the
:42:10. > :42:17.lives of Scottish people and we want to see this. Getty Dugdale, I think
:42:18. > :42:27.is doing a first-class job in leading that challenge. -- Kezia
:42:28. > :42:30.Dugdale. I think it is a question of trying to put it into some kind of
:42:31. > :42:36.context. Labour has to start to deal with things. The Council house
:42:37. > :42:39.freezing, that means there's a whole host of issues which are not being
:42:40. > :42:49.dealt with. Cots are still being implemented. --, is. Kezia Dugdale
:42:50. > :42:55.Has stated how much money is being spent. It is almost half of council
:42:56. > :43:01.tax in Scotland being going to servicing the debt, rather than
:43:02. > :43:08.paying it off. If we are going to have a campaign with the S NP, part
:43:09. > :43:15.of that is pressing strongly for the debt to be dropped. Public services
:43:16. > :43:24.are being threatened. Your union, will it be backing Labour in the
:43:25. > :43:30.Scottish election in a? 100%. I will be saying that a little later on in
:43:31. > :43:36.my speech here. Of course, we will work with the S NP Government. That
:43:37. > :43:45.is Iraq thing to do far members. -- SNP. Many members of them voted for
:43:46. > :43:56.the SNP. We will do all we can to help Kezia Dugdale and Jeremy
:43:57. > :44:04.Corbyn. Why are you backing Labour when you have said that over 60% of
:44:05. > :44:09.your members voted SNP at the last general election in Scotland? Why
:44:10. > :44:14.don't you back then or do what you did in the independence referendum
:44:15. > :44:20.and sit on the Our union is affiliated with the Labour Party.
:44:21. > :44:23.That is all our members within Britain. That is the position and
:44:24. > :44:30.until that position changes, within our rules, we are bound to Labour
:44:31. > :44:37.and we are not bound to support any other political party. That is the
:44:38. > :44:39.way it should be. It was the trade unions that created and gave birth
:44:40. > :44:45.to the Labour Party. Remember, at one point of her story in Scotland,
:44:46. > :44:53.80% of Unite members would vote Labour. Labour have got to do
:44:54. > :44:58.something about it. It makes them never to look like Mount Everest.
:44:59. > :45:12.The challenge they face. We will be supporting Jeromy and Kezia because
:45:13. > :45:16.they offer something different. Unite members are coming back to
:45:17. > :45:19.Labour and away from the S NP. Another poll it looks increasingly
:45:20. > :45:25.likely that we may have this year is a referendum on the European Union.
:45:26. > :45:28.What is your view on that? Are you for staying in the European Union
:45:29. > :45:40.are you leading to what the cup campaign? We are united solidly as a
:45:41. > :45:44.pro-European Union. We were slightly concerned when the Prime Minister
:45:45. > :45:51.started to talk about renegotiating, because they knew he was looking to
:45:52. > :46:02.take away more rights from British workers and we are against that. We
:46:03. > :46:05.called for the Prime Minister to stop playing stupid games. We don't
:46:06. > :46:09.want to take away more rights. It looks as if the Prime Minister has
:46:10. > :46:13.seen common sense and has moved away from that. Of course, he was forced
:46:14. > :46:21.into a corner by the right wing Tory MPs and in need by Ukip. He seems to
:46:22. > :46:24.have moved away from that and all of our manufacturing companies that we
:46:25. > :46:28.deal with believe we should stay in Europe. It is pretty likely that
:46:29. > :46:35.Unite, along with most of the British trade union movement will be
:46:36. > :46:40.supporting staying in Europe. On nuclear weapons, I know you are
:46:41. > :46:45.concerned that there were suggestions that Labour might make
:46:46. > :46:51.some kind of decision on the policy regarding balloting, that may
:46:52. > :47:03.exclude the trade union involvement. Are you satisfied to have been given
:47:04. > :47:06.assurances... Go on. Yes. I am completely satisfied. It has been
:47:07. > :47:13.clarified for is what the process is. It will be a comprehensive
:47:14. > :47:16.review of the sector, not just the nucleoside but conventional offence
:47:17. > :47:22.as well. We think that is the right thing to do. The only political
:47:23. > :47:26.party that is doing it. It is a good thing. The media of course will
:47:27. > :47:30.watch to obsess about Trident because they see it as a division
:47:31. > :47:35.within Labour. The truth is that the review will take place and, what is
:47:36. > :47:45.absolutely critical for Unite is, that we are prone jobs and
:47:46. > :47:53.pro-community. That will be a priority, that will be confirmed to
:47:54. > :47:59.them. Everyone in Scotland can rest easy in their beds, as indeed can
:48:00. > :48:03.defence workers... You say they can rest easy in their beds, but
:48:04. > :48:06.presumably you are not exactly delighted that the two largest
:48:07. > :48:15.parties in Scotland will be going into the May elections, Labour and
:48:16. > :48:20.the SNP, where, in effect, they both have policies on nuclear
:48:21. > :48:25.disarmament... I don't think that is the Labour Party... Well, they have
:48:26. > :48:32.decided they are against renewing Trident. Know, if you really policy
:48:33. > :48:42.carefully, you'll see that is a very queer caveat about guarantees --
:48:43. > :48:51.clear. Given to protect jobs and immunities. This is important. Only
:48:52. > :48:53.this time in years, think you have a leader of a political party in
:48:54. > :49:02.Jeremy Corbyn who is serious about wanting to discuss diversification.
:49:03. > :49:06.We have been looking for that for a long, long time. We are engaged in a
:49:07. > :49:10.number of initiatives and no one has ever taking it seriously. We see
:49:11. > :49:12.what is happening with the defence review as something that is
:49:13. > :49:17.positive. Our members can rest assured that, irrespective of who
:49:18. > :49:21.the Labour leader on the Prime Minister is, we will defend their
:49:22. > :49:24.jobs and their communities. Thank you for joining us this morning.
:49:25. > :49:26.Education wasn't the first career option of Professor Anton Muscatelli
:49:27. > :49:29.- his childhood ambition was to be an astronaut.
:49:30. > :49:31.When that didn't work out, he became an economist and moved
:49:32. > :49:34.from being a trainee in a bank to a one-year university lectureship.
:49:35. > :49:37.He must have done something right because he's now been Principal
:49:38. > :49:39.and Vice Chancellor of the University of Glasgow
:49:40. > :49:46.He's also been a consultant to the World Bank and the European
:49:47. > :49:49.Commission, a member of the Panel of Economic Advisers
:49:50. > :49:51.of the Secretary of State for Scotland and an adviser
:49:52. > :49:53.to the House of Commons Treasury Select Committee -
:49:54. > :49:55.in addition to serving as chairman for the Calman Commission.
:49:56. > :49:58.Professor Muscatelli joins me now in the studio.
:49:59. > :50:05.You could have been doing your first spacewalk this week. It would have
:50:06. > :50:10.been great, but I am afraid I had to go for my second option. You have
:50:11. > :50:13.produced this report on the economic impact at Glasgow University.
:50:14. > :50:23.Astonishingly, you found it is very positive. Give us a 32nd gist of
:50:24. > :50:27.what you think it is important. As I said in an interview to Holyrood
:50:28. > :50:31.magazine, we have a huge economic impact as an organisation. 1.5
:50:32. > :50:36.billion of Scottish output, we are responsible for up to 15,000 jobs.
:50:37. > :50:39.Not just in Glasgow, but around the country, the Highlands, the Borders.
:50:40. > :50:45.600 jobs in Edinburgh which we impact on. We are also about to
:50:46. > :50:47.embark and unusually exciting expansion of our campus. About 1
:50:48. > :50:52.billion spent over the next ten years, three quarters of which which
:50:53. > :50:58.will be on capital facilities, which will generate another 2500 jobs and
:50:59. > :51:03.another 30 million of gross value added for the Scottish economy. We
:51:04. > :51:08.are a big player in innovation and in skills and innovation. -- skills
:51:09. > :51:12.and education. The world of universities is becoming ever more
:51:13. > :51:17.competitive. You are not just against the fact that universities
:51:18. > :51:22.in England have fees, but also American universities which have
:51:23. > :51:25.huge endowments and the sort of things English universities would
:51:26. > :51:30.find unimaginable. You completely relaxed about the fee situation in
:51:31. > :51:34.England? Yes, because we are a globally competitive university. We
:51:35. > :51:37.are one of two or three in Scotland that are in the global top 100. We
:51:38. > :51:41.have seen demand for our courses grow, not only in Scotland, but from
:51:42. > :51:45.the rest of the UK and internationally. We have grown our
:51:46. > :51:51.international numbers in Glasgow by between 80 and 90% in the last five
:51:52. > :51:57.years. The other thing about universities in America... There has
:51:58. > :52:00.been talk for 30 years in Scotland about universities becoming engines
:52:01. > :52:04.of economic growth, spin off companies and the rest of it. The
:52:05. > :52:09.model was always Stanford in California and its connection with
:52:10. > :52:14.silicon valley. I'm sure you could tell me lots of things that Glasgow
:52:15. > :52:17.and other universities have done that have led to businesses, but hit
:52:18. > :52:22.it has never quite happened in the way it has in America. Your macro I
:52:23. > :52:27.would contest that. If you look at our own performance in terms of spin
:52:28. > :52:31.outs, in terms of jobs over the last few years, which year by year are
:52:32. > :52:34.still producing up to ?240 million of output for the Scottish economy.
:52:35. > :52:45.If you look at Scottish universities, they are indeed places
:52:46. > :52:47.for. We could do better, joining up much better the whole of the
:52:48. > :52:51.innovation landscape. That is something we are on the case to
:52:52. > :52:56.doing with our partner universities, with government, with other
:52:57. > :52:59.agencies. We have to continue to improve because other competitors in
:53:00. > :53:06.the US are continuing to up their game. You played quite a role in the
:53:07. > :53:22.devolution business. You work adviser to the common commission --
:53:23. > :53:25.Calman Commission. Are you concerned about this? I am very concerned. As
:53:26. > :53:30.I have said in the press quite a bit over the last few months, the fiscal
:53:31. > :53:34.framework is as if not more important than the bill itself,
:53:35. > :53:37.because it will set the physical parameters around which Scottish
:53:38. > :53:41.Government in future will have to decide our options. As I pointed
:53:42. > :53:46.out, if we choose the wrong formula for adjusting the block grant after
:53:47. > :53:50.the settlement, the Scottish parliament could lose up to 7
:53:51. > :53:56.billion over ten years if the wrong formula is used. I intervene to
:53:57. > :54:03.support a per capita index, a way of trying to protect Scotland from
:54:04. > :54:09.those demographic risks. The fear is, is it, that, should, for
:54:10. > :54:15.example, we changed tack tax rates -- tax rates appear, if it grows
:54:16. > :54:21.slower than it does in the rest of the UK, Scotland could lose out? The
:54:22. > :54:25.fear is this. Even if our tax base grows at the same rate as the rest
:54:26. > :54:28.of the UK, if we choose the wrong formula, we could still lose because
:54:29. > :54:32.of the growth in population in the south-east of England. The way the
:54:33. > :54:39.Smith Commission framed the agreement is that it said Barnett is
:54:40. > :54:43.central to the new Scotland act. There should be no detriment. If we
:54:44. > :54:47.were to choose the per capita method, we could end up losing
:54:48. > :54:52.hundreds of millions of pounds a year. The problem is, this phrase,
:54:53. > :54:57.no detriment, is itself a tremendously ambiguous, isn't it? I
:54:58. > :55:00.can imagine some people would say, well, if the East of England
:55:01. > :55:07.managers to get lots more people wanting to go and stay there than in
:55:08. > :55:10.Scotland, well, tough. The Scottish woman should implement policies that
:55:11. > :55:16.mean people want to live in Scotland. We can't be expected to
:55:17. > :55:19.pay for that. The UK is a very peculiar country in the European
:55:20. > :55:23.context because London and the south-east are such a magnet for
:55:24. > :55:26.population, and because the Scottish Government arguably does not have
:55:27. > :55:34.any tools at its disposable to try to offset that. It still creates the
:55:35. > :55:40.right incentive. It does mean that we have to keep up our tax base
:55:41. > :55:44.growth within those parameters. It is actually, I think, a good
:55:45. > :55:49.compromise and fair to Scotland and the rest of the UK. The finance
:55:50. > :55:53.secretary, John Swinney, has threatened not to approve the fiscal
:55:54. > :55:59.framework and, in effect, have said no to further devolution. Unless he
:56:00. > :56:03.gets what he wants out of it. What he thinks is fair. Do you think that
:56:04. > :56:10.is a realistic option for the Scottish Parliament, given that the
:56:11. > :56:16.SNP's opponents would say, hang on, the SNP are refusing Morfa Scotland?
:56:17. > :56:21.It is difficult, but you cannot accept it at any price -- additional
:56:22. > :56:25.powers at any price. Over the next ten years, you might lose 7 billion
:56:26. > :56:31.of that, it is not a great deal because it was was Scotland to make
:56:32. > :56:35.choices which are not in its economic interest. Rather famously
:56:36. > :56:38.and controversially, during the referendum campaign, you wrote a
:56:39. > :56:47.piece in the Financial Times arguing for currency. Do you think that is
:56:48. > :56:53.still a viable option, should there be in the referendum campaign? I
:56:54. > :56:57.think it is. If you remember, I argued it from the point of view
:56:58. > :57:01.also from the rest of the UK's point of view. Volumes of trade between
:57:02. > :57:05.Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are so vast that it
:57:06. > :57:08.would have been hugely destructive to break that currency union. I also
:57:09. > :57:13.pointed out it was not the only option. There were a range of
:57:14. > :57:16.options and all have advantages and disadvantages. There have been
:57:17. > :57:21.mutterings from people in the yes campaign to the fact that given
:57:22. > :57:25.everyone else in Britain said, no, you can't have that, it wasn't the
:57:26. > :57:28.best idea to be trying to convince people to vote for independence.
:57:29. > :57:36.There seems to have been not very much discussion about practical
:57:37. > :57:41.alternatives. Obviously, I cannot comment on these argument is, I was
:57:42. > :57:44.making the argument of what would have been in the interest
:57:45. > :57:49.economically... What is your favourite alternative to that? The
:57:50. > :57:53.most immediate would have been a Scottish currency pegged in some way
:57:54. > :57:58.to UK pound to try to avoid major currency fluctuations. That was the
:57:59. > :58:02.heart of that original discussion. Now, given that oil prices have
:58:03. > :58:08.collapsed, where would you go into that model now, you think Scotland
:58:09. > :58:11.can borrow at reasonable rates? Since the Euro crisis, the idea that
:58:12. > :58:16.you can just borrow at the same rate as your quietening currency has gone
:58:17. > :58:20.out the window. Small countries do this all the time. If you look at
:58:21. > :58:25.the Baltic economies, the Scandinavian economies, that is not
:58:26. > :58:28.an issue. The debate has to go beyond one element, which is the
:58:29. > :58:30.currency. Thank you very much indeed.
:58:31. > :58:32.The latest Friends of the Earth survey has revealed that
:58:33. > :58:34.St John's Road in Edinburgh is Scotland's most polluted.
:58:35. > :58:36.It's closley followed by Glasgow's Hope Street.
:58:37. > :58:38.The relationship between car emissions and ambient air quality
:58:39. > :58:42.is a fundamental issue with vehicles contributing significantly
:58:43. > :58:44.to pollution in our towns and cities.
:58:45. > :58:47.So testing those emissions under real conditions is critical element
:58:48. > :58:50.in monitoring and controlling pollution.
:58:51. > :58:53.Against this backdrop, there's concern that a key European
:58:54. > :58:56.vote on testing roadside emissions - due to take place this week -
:58:57. > :59:12.Everyone is used to the site of cars on our roads. They are a vital part
:59:13. > :59:16.of everyday life. But at what cost? The fumes which come out of vehicle
:59:17. > :59:20.exhaust pipes play a big role in the rise of air pollution, a problem
:59:21. > :59:26.which is linked with thousands of deaths in Scotland each year. This
:59:27. > :59:29.is St John's Road in Edinburgh, it is like many other streets across
:59:30. > :59:34.Scotland. There are businesses here and people live here. But it has
:59:35. > :59:38.also been given the unfortunate title of Scotland's most polluted
:59:39. > :59:49.road. So, what do the people who live and work you make of that? I
:59:50. > :00:02.was smoking, I was going out every week and because of the air
:00:03. > :00:06.pollution, I never got down to zero. Age doesn't affect me at all. I go
:00:07. > :00:13.outside for fresh air, but you can't get fresh air. The claim that St
:00:14. > :00:17.John's Road is Scotland's most polluted street is made by the
:00:18. > :00:20.environmental group Friends of the Earth Scotland. It is based on
:00:21. > :00:25.figures gathered by monitoring stations like this one. On the day
:00:26. > :00:28.we filmed here, pollution levels were described as low, but Friends
:00:29. > :00:34.of the Earth say that, on average, legal limit in air quality are being
:00:35. > :00:38.breached. If you are breathing in air pollution day in day out, you
:00:39. > :00:42.are more likely to have a stroke, a heart attack. If you are asthmatic,
:00:43. > :00:47.you might find your symptoms worsened. Air pollution causes 2000
:00:48. > :00:52.early deaths in Scotland every year. It is a serious public health crisis
:00:53. > :00:56.and tackling it should be top priority for the Scottish
:00:57. > :01:01.Government. The annual average European legal limit for the
:01:02. > :01:05.pollutant nitrogen dioxide is set at 40 micrograms per cubic metre. New
:01:06. > :01:12.research from Friends of the Earth say the level on St John's Road in
:01:13. > :01:16.2015 was 65 micrograms. Elsewhere, the nitrogen dioxide level on Hope
:01:17. > :01:24.Street in Glasgow was 60 micrograms. The figure for Dundee's Seagate was
:01:25. > :01:27.50. What is being done about it? Two months ago, the Scottish Government
:01:28. > :01:32.set a target to make Scotland's at the best in Europe. Ministers want
:01:33. > :01:38.councils to play their part, but councils say, to do that, they need
:01:39. > :01:41.more cash. Is being made very clear to the civil servants and the
:01:42. > :01:45.Scottish Government that we are talking about a strategy in terms of
:01:46. > :01:49.low emissions. As local government, we need those resources. We are
:01:50. > :01:52.making cuts this year and therefore we need resources. If you want us to
:01:53. > :01:56.work in partnership with you, we need the resources to be able to
:01:57. > :02:00.implement that low emission strategy. The pressure is mounting.
:02:01. > :02:08.The revelation that the car-maker faults wagon -- Volkswagen fitted
:02:09. > :02:16.emission deceiving devices to its cars. A vote on the issue, due to
:02:17. > :02:20.take this place -- take place this week has been postponed, as
:02:21. > :02:23.politicians decide whether to make those limits even tougher. For
:02:24. > :02:27.residents living in congested cities like Edinburgh, that means further
:02:28. > :02:33.delay. The local council here says 97% of its streets actually pass at
:02:34. > :02:38.quality tests and it is working on the rest. Assurances like that have
:02:39. > :02:40.not persuaded campaigners, who argue that air pollution is now at the
:02:41. > :02:43.heart of a major health crisis. I'm joined in our London
:02:44. > :02:45.studio by Alan Andrews, who is an air quality lawyer for
:02:46. > :02:59.the ClientEarth environmental group. ClientEarth was involved in a legal
:03:00. > :03:03.case against the British government over air quality. There has been
:03:04. > :03:06.talk of a legal case against the Scottish comment. I'm not clear
:03:07. > :03:11.whether that is just an idea whether this is something you do intend to
:03:12. > :03:15.do. ClientEarth fought a five-year legal battle against the UK
:03:16. > :03:21.Government over illegal levels of air pollution, but the Scottish
:03:22. > :03:23.Government, the Scottish ministers, are responsible for protecting
:03:24. > :03:29.Scottish people from air pollution. They could find themselves in the
:03:30. > :03:31.firing line in the future if other organisations like ClientEarth
:03:32. > :03:35.decided to take action. For the moment, ClientEarth is very much
:03:36. > :03:40.focused on the UK Government. We are pushing for a new air quality plan
:03:41. > :03:43.which will tackle pollution from dirty diesel vehicles as soon as
:03:44. > :03:47.possible. You have no present intention of taking a legal case
:03:48. > :03:52.against the Scottish Government. Our present intention is to focus on the
:03:53. > :03:57.UK Government, but that case will improve Scotland, the supreme court
:03:58. > :04:00.order covered Glasgow because pollution in Glasgow is at illegal
:04:01. > :04:05.levels and the plans to achieve legal limits were not adequate. The
:04:06. > :04:13.UK and Scotland is very much in our sights. What is a government or
:04:14. > :04:17.local authority supposed to do? They seem to be particular streets, Hope
:04:18. > :04:21.Street in Glasgow, there are a lot of bosses. Tall buildings either
:04:22. > :04:42.side. What are they supposed to do to ameliorate this? You mentioned
:04:43. > :04:49.buses, the also taxis, vans, and diesel cars. We need to ban diesel
:04:50. > :04:55.vehicles from the road unless they meet the new emission standards on
:04:56. > :04:58.the roads. You can imagine a lot of people saying, "Hang on a minute,
:04:59. > :05:07.are you saying we need to stop using buses? " No, we need to see cleaner
:05:08. > :05:12.vehicles on the roads. We need to see a will emission buses on the
:05:13. > :05:16.roads. That'll require a major investment. We need to see money
:05:17. > :05:18.invested and given to local authorities so they can have the
:05:19. > :05:26.tools in front of them to this problem. How significant a player
:05:27. > :05:31.our cars that households use in this converged to buses and trucks Lewes
:05:32. > :05:38.some local authorities have been accused of not doing roadside
:05:39. > :05:41.emissions testing. It is now part of MOT for cars. We should now have to
:05:42. > :05:51.do that. LOSS OF SOUND
:05:52. > :05:55.Diesel cars -- diesel cars are a massive part of this. We do need to
:05:56. > :06:01.take action against diesel cars. That is what we need to be looking
:06:02. > :06:04.at. Parking rights schemes and major investment in public transport, so
:06:05. > :06:08.people have a realistic alternative to driving the dirty diesel car into
:06:09. > :06:14.the town centre, where we know it does much damage to humans. Does
:06:15. > :06:20.this connects to the Volkswagen scandal? Because obviously we have
:06:21. > :06:23.been told some whoppers about the actual emissions about nitrous oxide
:06:24. > :06:29.from diesel cars. I'm not clear whether these hotspots, if you like,
:06:30. > :06:37.of bad emissions across Britain, whether that has anything to do with
:06:38. > :06:40.cars giving off more nitrous oxides than the manufacturers say they are
:06:41. > :06:45.or whether there are just too many cars and buses on the roads. The
:06:46. > :06:51.Volkswagen scandal is very relevant year. The levels on a mission
:06:52. > :06:53.pollution, we are seeing in these hot spots from diesel cars and
:06:54. > :07:01.buses, the Volkswagen scandal shoulders that diesel emissions are
:07:02. > :07:12.far higher than the legal requirement. -- showed eyes. What we
:07:13. > :07:15.need to see is action at the EU level to make sure that EU
:07:16. > :07:21.regulations are fit for purpose and directly delivering real world
:07:22. > :07:22.emission cuts and that they are not breathing in this for years to come
:07:23. > :07:30.thank you. Well, joining me is the MEP
:07:31. > :07:49.Alyn Smith, who's in our Hyde, Gordon. You are tightening up
:07:50. > :07:52.nitrous oxides in Europe and how they are outlined in documents. Any
:07:53. > :07:56.documents they have produced, they seem to be allowed to exceed the
:07:57. > :08:03.limits that haven't been introduced yet. This is my letter that has been
:08:04. > :08:07.called in as part of the scandal, I am also involved, not just laid a
:08:08. > :08:11.legislator but also as a consumer. I am hopping mad about it. When I got
:08:12. > :08:22.my car, I did look at diesel emission levels, and I was told that
:08:23. > :08:25.they had improved and I was safe to buy one. We are actively misled as
:08:26. > :08:30.consumers by industry. The proposal we had was not actually contingent
:08:31. > :08:35.to the Volkswagen scandal, it actually started much earlier. We
:08:36. > :08:44.need to tighten up emission scandals and we needed to tighten up how we
:08:45. > :08:47.test. What was the result was a pretty toothless package. That is
:08:48. > :08:52.why we responded and was restored by only a month, because they were
:08:53. > :08:56.thought they were going to lose it. We have been on a systematic
:08:57. > :09:04.industrial scale, misled by industry that we trusted on a long-term
:09:05. > :09:10.basis. Just a nice proposed changes, you call them mealy-mouthed, an EU
:09:11. > :09:19.rules, the car manufacturers will be allowed to exceed these levels, the
:09:20. > :09:25.new maximum levels. By 110%. That is why I said it was not good enough of
:09:26. > :09:31.it for purpose. What power of the European Parliament have, can you
:09:32. > :09:40.just say no and that is it? Yes, we are the legislators. It is not law
:09:41. > :09:47.unless they say it is long. What ClientEarth has been referring to is
:09:48. > :09:50.how these emissions levels were achievable. We have seen a lot of
:09:51. > :09:54.failure as to what we think we should be getting a new way of
:09:55. > :09:59.emission testing in our atmosphere, and that is not adding up and
:10:00. > :10:02.aligned with what industry has told us. We have seen a massive
:10:03. > :10:05.discrepancy in that. What is even more significant is that it was
:10:06. > :10:10.discovered by the Scottish, British, German, European authorities. It was
:10:11. > :10:14.discovered by an American authorities. It is the US Federal
:10:15. > :10:16.levels was not a different case about this. There will be huge
:10:17. > :10:21.ramifications of this going forward. We have been actively misled by a
:10:22. > :10:24.major, major industry. That is why we are having the abortion problem
:10:25. > :10:31.that we are having. Is it your suspicion that this is scandal
:10:32. > :10:45.Michael Fuller? -- pollution problems. Is your suspicion that
:10:46. > :10:48.this goes wider than Volkswagen? It is so fundamental that this calls
:10:49. > :10:54.into order all the numbers that we have approving. In 2004, I approved
:10:55. > :10:56.the current emissions levels because we were led to believe that they
:10:57. > :11:02.were achievable. We were allegedly decided by the industry who know
:11:03. > :11:13.what better than the legislator do. It is the problem that we have been
:11:14. > :11:16.less said by a great chunk of automotive companies. -- misled. The
:11:17. > :11:25.European Parliament decided in November that we will be setting up
:11:26. > :11:29.a enquiry. This will set up how we do the testing and measure the
:11:30. > :11:34.standard. We have to move to a new testing regime, it is ridiculous
:11:35. > :11:37.that we haven't. This is a huge global scandal. Again, just explain
:11:38. > :11:43.to people have not been following this too closely, when you say real
:11:44. > :11:48.world, that is different from last testing. You can do at testing and
:11:49. > :11:53.it looks fine but when you taken out of the street, you get different
:11:54. > :11:56.numbers. It is exactly that. It is down to the extent of which
:11:57. > :12:02.computers actually run cars on their software. It is much less mechanical
:12:03. > :12:07.and more about computers. These cars have a software that identifies when
:12:08. > :12:11.a car is only rolling road. The thing that you have or MOT centre
:12:12. > :12:14.will demonstrate it is on a rolling road. Otherwise, the cavalry
:12:15. > :12:24.reacting as if the car was having some kind of scared. -- skid. That
:12:25. > :12:29.changes the power output of the car to a more emissions efficient way of
:12:30. > :12:33.doing it. It was woefully misleading. To convey a much bigger
:12:34. > :12:37.issue, good and? I'm Tuesday and what you think of this. We in Europe
:12:38. > :12:45.have gone for diesel cars in the way that consumers in America have not
:12:46. > :12:48.done so to the same extent. If it turns out that these figures are
:12:49. > :12:53.wrong, one of the reasons we went from diesel cars right across Europe
:12:54. > :12:56.is because they were supposed to be fuel-efficient and the emissions
:12:57. > :13:06.were supposed low. Good people industry, do you think, the change?
:13:07. > :13:18.The whole industry has to change. It has to change full stop. I bought my
:13:19. > :13:22.car on the basis that I thought it was safer in terms of emissions than
:13:23. > :13:26.it is. A lot of people have been misled. Not least, in terms of tax.
:13:27. > :13:32.But at the different tax regimes we have entered is a pedal buses
:13:33. > :13:38.diesel. A lot of the market signals -- petrol versus diesel. Full a lot
:13:39. > :13:41.of the figures have been different to what we were told. We have been
:13:42. > :13:45.woefully misled. Emission standards away with them they have been. This
:13:46. > :13:49.is not just a Scottish thing. I am sorry to bring you to a halt but we
:13:50. > :13:54.have ran out of time. We will leave you to go stir woefully actual tax
:13:55. > :13:57.year.