:00:35. > :00:39.George Osborne called it a "major success".
:00:40. > :00:42.Google say they're paying what's due, but Shadow Chancellor John
:00:43. > :00:48.We'll ask him how he'd get big business to pay more tax.
:00:49. > :00:50.David Cameron says he wants an emergency brake on access
:00:51. > :00:53.to welfare benefits for EU migrants to be applied immediately
:00:54. > :01:00.But will that be enough for the PM to clinch a deal and head
:01:01. > :01:06.And will it be best for business if we stay in or we get out?
:01:07. > :01:09.We'll examine the claim and counter claim and bring the two sides
:01:10. > :01:14.And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:
:01:15. > :01:17.As Labour's new leadership fights its first election,
:01:18. > :01:18.its prospective candidates are battling to get
:01:19. > :01:34.And taking time out from their protracted negotiations
:01:35. > :01:36.with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over how much tax
:01:37. > :01:42.they should pay on their enormous fees - the best and the brightest
:01:43. > :01:44.political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:45. > :01:50.and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:51. > :01:52.First this morning, George Osborne hailed Google's back tax bill
:01:53. > :01:59.Since then the settlement's been condemned as too lenient by -
:02:00. > :02:01.among others - Boris Johnson, The Sun, Rupert Murdoch
:02:02. > :02:04.and the Labour Party, which has accused the Chancellor
:02:05. > :02:07.of offering the internet giant "mates' rates".
:02:08. > :02:11.In a moment, I'll be talking to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.
:02:12. > :02:14.First here's Google executive, Peter Barron, defending the company
:02:15. > :02:18.on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.
:02:19. > :02:22.What I would say is that in the UK we pay corporation tax at 20%.
:02:23. > :02:26.It's absolutely the same corporation tax rate as everybody else,
:02:27. > :02:34.Yes, but you keep coming back to this point about sales.
:02:35. > :02:36.We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the activities,
:02:37. > :02:39.the economic activities of Google UK.
:02:40. > :02:42.So, we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20%,
:02:43. > :02:49.and, actually, globally, our effective tax rate over the last
:02:50. > :02:53.five years or so is round about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate,
:02:54. > :03:00.And I'm joined now by the Shadow Chancellor,
:03:01. > :03:13.Welcome. What single step would you take to make sure that companies
:03:14. > :03:19.like Google, Apple, Amazon, pay a fair and appropriate level of tax?
:03:20. > :03:23.Openness and transparency. I want the information about how this deal
:03:24. > :03:30.has been arrived at and I want them to publish in the future there tax
:03:31. > :03:35.records. So that we can have openness and transparency, see what
:03:36. > :03:38.is fair. The Chancellor said this was a major success. But we cannot
:03:39. > :03:45.tell because we have not got the information. Would you extend that
:03:46. > :03:50.to British major companies publishing their tax? Six out of ten
:03:51. > :03:56.of the UK's biggest companies are not paying any corporation tax. Yes,
:03:57. > :04:00.I would. The suggestion has been put forward about the FTSE 100. That is
:04:01. > :04:07.a good idea. There would be no commercial disadvantage. Do you
:04:08. > :04:13.think that transparency would be a major step forward? It is one step
:04:14. > :04:16.forward. We want country by country reporting as well. I supported
:04:17. > :04:22.George Osborne on as negotiations in Europe with that. We're not going to
:04:23. > :04:27.get enough. I found quite angry making this morning that we have
:04:28. > :04:30.allegation -- allegations that their Conservatives were voting their MEPs
:04:31. > :04:36.to vote against this. I find that frustrating. I want HMRC to be
:04:37. > :04:41.properly resourced so they can do the job. There are too many job
:04:42. > :04:44.cuts. We have lost too much expertise. There is time now to
:04:45. > :04:53.start thinking about how we review our tax system. The Treasury select
:04:54. > :04:58.committee has undertaken a review. Corporation tax is levied on
:04:59. > :05:01.profits. Even if you got your transparency, you would quickly find
:05:02. > :05:06.that the concept of profits that can be moved around geographically, they
:05:07. > :05:12.can be manipulated depending on costs, would you consider replacing
:05:13. > :05:16.corporation tax with, for example, a tax on corporate sales? Revenues are
:05:17. > :05:20.less malleable than profits. That is one of the issues to be addressed.
:05:21. > :05:27.Nigel Lawson has done an article to that effect. One of the most
:05:28. > :05:30.important things is to secure international agreement. We cannot
:05:31. > :05:34.have the situation where companies are shopping around the world to
:05:35. > :05:38.find the lowest tax regime and inventing company structures to
:05:39. > :05:43.enable that to happen. But if you had a tax on the revenues, it would
:05:44. > :05:48.not happen what they moved around. Revenues are revenues. You would
:05:49. > :05:54.levy a tax on the revenues in the UK. That is why it is worth looking
:05:55. > :05:59.at. It might be a combination of that and economic activity as well.
:06:00. > :06:03.One professor said if you raise corporate taxes too high, companies
:06:04. > :06:09.may move to island macro or elsewhere. Do you accept there has
:06:10. > :06:13.to be a limit? There has to be a limit, there has to be some
:06:14. > :06:15.reasonableness. If we can get international cooperation, you can
:06:16. > :06:21.avoid this development of virtual tax havens taking place. Would you
:06:22. > :06:27.want a common rate of corporation tax? Not necessarily. You would like
:06:28. > :06:30.to make sure that what you charge is reasonable and fair and you would
:06:31. > :06:36.expect those companies to abide by that. I listened to the Google
:06:37. > :06:40.representative this morning. The reputational damage to Google is
:06:41. > :06:45.immense. The savings they have made in taxes not worth the reputational
:06:46. > :06:55.damage. Let's move on to the other big issue, Europe. And membership.
:06:56. > :07:04.How did you vote in the 1975 referendum? Against. In the 1983
:07:05. > :07:06.Labour manifesto it claimed that a commitment to radical socialist
:07:07. > :07:13.policies was incompatible with membership of the European Union. It
:07:14. > :07:18.proposed withdrawal. Did you agree with that at the time? I did at the
:07:19. > :07:28.time. That is long gone. We're within Europe. We are working within
:07:29. > :07:29.Europe with other parties to see how we can make Europe fair,
:07:30. > :07:33.particularly with regard to the rights of workers. Take this tax
:07:34. > :07:46.issue. We need to be in Europe to ensure we can secure fair agreement
:07:47. > :07:49.on tax. That is why, by remaining within, we have got to remain within
:07:50. > :07:54.with their own reform agenda, that is one of the issues we need to
:07:55. > :07:58.reform. To take that phrase radical socialist policies, you are
:07:59. > :08:06.committed to radical socialist policies. How is that now compatible
:08:07. > :08:10.with remaining in the EU when it was not in 1983? Because we have
:08:11. > :08:15.demonstrated with the work we have undertaken within the EU that we
:08:16. > :08:18.have secured some benefits. Employment rights. In addition,
:08:19. > :08:22.there are real opportunities now where we can work with others to
:08:23. > :08:26.secure that radical change. Withdrawal from Europe at the moment
:08:27. > :08:30.would not be beneficial. It would lose jobs. It would undermine the
:08:31. > :08:33.benefits we have gained in terms of employment. That is why we want to
:08:34. > :08:38.work to reform it. The issue that I have got with the Prime Minister, we
:08:39. > :08:44.will see what he comes back with... On the social Europe issue, you want
:08:45. > :08:48.a more social Europe. In France you have got a socialist government that
:08:49. > :08:53.has moved to the right. In Germany, a centre-right government. Other
:08:54. > :08:57.countries have a centre-right government. Other
:08:58. > :09:02.in power or the hard right at the top of the polls. Where is your
:09:03. > :09:08.social Europe in that? That is why we will work with socialist and
:09:09. > :09:13.social Democrats. I think you will see in the coming years that a wider
:09:14. > :09:19.debate is taking place. In some way the referendum debate will enable us
:09:20. > :09:24.to then look at those ideas. Wouldn't it be fair to say that like
:09:25. > :09:30.Jeremy Corbyn, you are pretty lukewarm about our membership of the
:09:31. > :09:34.European Union? I signed up to remain within the EU. That does not
:09:35. > :09:41.mean to say that we accepted as a perfect institution. We want to see
:09:42. > :09:45.reform. I come back to the tax issue. Unless we get international
:09:46. > :09:51.cooperation, particularly across Europe, we will not solve this
:09:52. > :09:57.problem. You have got a Eurosceptic track record. Kate Hoey, a leader --
:09:58. > :10:00.leading Labour Eurosceptic, she said that you and Jeremy Corbyn
:10:01. > :10:07.consistently voted with Eurosceptic MPs on the EU. That is true, isn't
:10:08. > :10:10.it? On a number of issues, because we were frustrated with the slow
:10:11. > :10:15.pace of reform. That does not mean we are in favour of coming out. It
:10:16. > :10:21.is better to argue from within to secure a commonality of agreement.
:10:22. > :10:26.Do you broadly support the changes that David Cameron is trying to
:10:27. > :10:31.renegotiate? I don't know what they are yet. Let's see what he comes
:10:32. > :10:34.back with. My fear is if he does not treat this issue seriously and it is
:10:35. > :10:39.just about party management, he could blow it. We could be outside
:10:40. > :10:44.of Europe and have the economic penalties as a result. Even if he
:10:45. > :10:48.comes back with something you do not regard as satisfactory, you will
:10:49. > :10:54.campaign to stay in? We will campaign for our own agenda. The
:10:55. > :10:59.government wants to get this done by the end of June. Will you cooperate
:11:00. > :11:05.with that timetable? We will see what he comes back with. Let's have
:11:06. > :11:09.it as soon as possible. We want the debate to take place. Delaying it
:11:10. > :11:15.would not help. We want the debate to start now. It would be better for
:11:16. > :11:18.him to come back fairly soon. Get the debate going. Even if the
:11:19. > :11:23.campaign overlaps with important elections in Scotland, England,
:11:24. > :11:28.Northern Ireland, Wales? That is the problem but it will overlap with
:11:29. > :11:31.something. Immigration is good to be a huge issue. The IMF says that
:11:32. > :11:38.almost 4 million immigrants will arrive in the EU between 2015 and
:11:39. > :11:43.2017. Almost 4 million. Should Britain take a fair share of that? I
:11:44. > :11:47.think is important we cooperate with our European partners to make that
:11:48. > :11:51.we can accommodate those that need to come to this country. In
:11:52. > :11:56.addition, that we have systems in place that protect wages, so that
:11:57. > :12:02.immigration is not used to undermine wages. But should we take a fair
:12:03. > :12:08.share of the 4 million? I think we should. We should cooperate with
:12:09. > :12:12.others and carry the burden. The majority of Britons want us to rise
:12:13. > :12:16.to it and ensure we assist others and that others are not suffering,
:12:17. > :12:21.and that we do not stand on one side when people suffer. Could you give
:12:22. > :12:27.an indication of how many? Young not at this stage. That would be a
:12:28. > :12:32.matter to negotiate with our European partners. Should we
:12:33. > :12:38.volunteered to be part of the EU quotas system? Mrs Merkel and others
:12:39. > :12:45.want 160,000 to be relocated through Schengen. Should we be part of
:12:46. > :12:48.Schengen? Should we be part of the 160,000? We should be doing more in
:12:49. > :12:54.terms of assisting refugees coming from Syria. We should be doing more
:12:55. > :12:57.to help those in desperate need. People are drowning in the
:12:58. > :13:03.Mediterranean. We cannot stand aside. This country has a history of
:13:04. > :13:07.receiving refugees. People watching this would want some sort of idea of
:13:08. > :13:12.numbers because numbers are important. It is important. That is
:13:13. > :13:17.why we need to get into these negotiations quickly and come back
:13:18. > :13:21.with practical proposals. In 2013 you told a gathering of the people's
:13:22. > :13:28.assembly at a rally on immigration that they should be open borders? I
:13:29. > :13:33.was arguing then... There was re-search looking at the long-term
:13:34. > :13:37.structure of the globe. Inevitably in this century we will have open
:13:38. > :13:40.borders. The movement of peoples across the globe will mean that
:13:41. > :13:45.borders will almost become irrelevant by the end of the
:13:46. > :13:49.century. We should be preparing for that and explaining why people move.
:13:50. > :13:54.Conflicts, poverty and destitution, and also climate change. In our
:13:55. > :13:59.policy-making we should be working now to see how we address that. It
:14:00. > :14:02.will mean that we need to look at how we resolve conflicts, how we
:14:03. > :14:08.make the world more equal and also how we tackle climate change. In
:14:09. > :14:12.that way we can deal with the reality of the world, which means
:14:13. > :14:17.that people are not forced to move but there will be movement. Total
:14:18. > :14:21.open borders? At the end of this century that is what will occur.
:14:22. > :14:25.People are ignoring borders already as they fly from Syria. We should be
:14:26. > :14:32.making sure that if there is no forced movement, we look at the push
:14:33. > :14:35.and pull factors. Conflict prevention, the tackling of
:14:36. > :14:41.inequality and policies that tackle climate change. In that way we can
:14:42. > :14:45.cope with the global pressures with regard to population movement. To do
:14:46. > :14:51.that, for a Labour government to prepare for that, would be loosening
:14:52. > :14:55.controls as you move towards that? No. What I am saying is if you look
:14:56. > :15:01.at the analysis of what is happening over the next 75 years, the movement
:15:02. > :15:05.of people is such that borders are very difficult to maintain. That
:15:06. > :15:09.will happen by the end of the century. We should be opening up the
:15:10. > :15:14.debate of how we handle that. One of the issues we have to tackle is why
:15:15. > :15:17.people are moving. It is about conflict and climate change. It is
:15:18. > :15:21.about poverty as well. That means greater equality not just in our
:15:22. > :15:26.country but across the globe. I wanted to talk to you about Google
:15:27. > :15:30.and the EU. I hope you will come back and give me an interview on
:15:31. > :15:38.economic policy. Let me finish with a taster? Back to Professor
:15:39. > :15:43.Blanchflower, he said about you and Mr Corbyn that you have to accept
:15:44. > :15:48.the realities of capitalism and modern markets, like it or not. No
:15:49. > :15:55.more silly stuff about companies not being able to pay dividends if they
:15:56. > :16:00.do not do X or Y. Do you accept that? That is why I appointed him as
:16:01. > :16:04.an advisor. I wanted objective advice. I have established the
:16:05. > :16:11.architecture for the future development of economic policy.
:16:12. > :16:17.Are you going to accept his advice on that? We will listen to his
:16:18. > :16:24.advice and take it on board. But we will also listen to other advisers.
:16:25. > :16:28.But those advisers, what's the point of them if you will not listen? We
:16:29. > :16:32.will test every policy we put forward. On that one, we are hoping
:16:33. > :16:36.that we would avoid any need for that by introducing as we come into
:16:37. > :16:40.covenant a real living wage. In the meantime, we want to campaign with
:16:41. > :16:44.shareholders so they pressurise their companies to abide by a real
:16:45. > :16:48.living wage. I think there is an alliance to be built there. Is it
:16:49. > :16:52.party policy that if companies don't pay what you regard as a living
:16:53. > :16:56.wage, until it's made mandatory, that they shouldn't be allowed to
:16:57. > :17:01.pay dividends? it's one of ideas we have floated for discussion. We have
:17:02. > :17:06.put it to the economic advisers to get their view. Angela Eagle said
:17:07. > :17:11.it's unworkable. That's why it's open for discussion. It's a really
:17:12. > :17:14.good campaigning tool for us to work with shareholders to make sure they
:17:15. > :17:18.exert their influence to ensure their companies, on things like the
:17:19. > :17:22.living wage and paying their taxes as well, to make sure their
:17:23. > :17:25.companies are acting appropriately. John McDonnell, I hope you come back
:17:26. > :17:29.to continue the debate with us. I certainly well.
:17:30. > :17:31.So, David Cameron once dismissed the idea of an emergency
:17:32. > :17:34.This morning, Downing Street is indicating that a brake
:17:35. > :17:37.on welfare benefits for EU migrants might be acceptable
:17:38. > :17:39.if it was applied immediately, but only as a stop-gap measure.
:17:40. > :17:43.This evening, the Prime Minister meets EU Council President Donald
:17:44. > :17:49.Tusk as he tries to broker a deal ahead of a crunch summit of European
:17:50. > :17:53.leaders next month - but will the fractious leave
:17:54. > :17:56.campaigns be in any position to take advantage if he's seen to fail?
:17:57. > :18:06.Right now the future of Britain inside or outside the European Union
:18:07. > :18:12.You might think it started here in Brussels, or that the media's
:18:13. > :18:22.massed ranks are awaiting the outcome in the European
:18:23. > :18:27.This week the decision was made in Havering, in Essex.
:18:28. > :18:30.In this chamber right now, Havering councillors are debating
:18:31. > :18:44.We will, when the referendum comes. will change, because the smart among
:18:45. > :18:47.Nevertheless Havering Council deliberately didn't deliberate
:18:48. > :18:52.on the leisure centre or meals on wheels.
:18:53. > :19:05.However the Prime Minister meanwhile was hurrying for a deal on wheels -
:19:06. > :19:08.It's his plan to block in-work benefits for EU migrants for four
:19:09. > :19:09.years that's getting the bumpiest ride.
:19:10. > :19:12.The EU counter proposal of an an "emergency brake" on access
:19:13. > :19:15.to benefits - if a country can prove it's welfare system's under strain -
:19:16. > :19:17.has not gone down well with Eurosceptics back home.
:19:18. > :19:25.They are saying we are allowed to go to Brussels,
:19:26. > :19:27.and ask their permission to change the benefit rules,
:19:28. > :19:34.David Cameron still wants that benefit ban, and knows accepting
:19:35. > :19:38.the emergency brake as is would only accelerate any campaign to leave.
:19:39. > :19:41.We want to end the idea of something for nothing.
:19:42. > :19:47.It's not good enough, it needs more work,
:19:48. > :19:54.I believe we've got to put country before party,
:19:55. > :19:58.country before personality, vote for freedom, and vote for leave.
:19:59. > :20:01.In Havering they aren't waiting for a date or a settlement.
:20:02. > :20:04.The Prime Minster knows Brexit supporters are eyeing his own
:20:05. > :20:07.Cabinet to see who might be tempted do the same.
:20:08. > :20:11.Michael Gove might come out for leave.
:20:12. > :20:17.Boris Johnson, though it's rather doubtful,
:20:18. > :20:20.might just possibly come out for leave, to vote for leave.
:20:21. > :20:21.Theresa May, who almost certainly is preoccupied
:20:22. > :20:26.And finally, Sajid Javid, the Business Secretary,
:20:27. > :20:30.who has the most Eurosceptic record of all.
:20:31. > :20:32.But it's very difficult, when you are a government minister,
:20:33. > :20:35.and you've got real feelings of loyalty to your party
:20:36. > :20:39.and your Prime Minister, to depart from the line.
:20:40. > :20:42.And a lot of pressure, moral pressure, if you like,
:20:43. > :20:52.A Havering Borough MP thinks that kind of pressure is wrong.
:20:53. > :20:55.I think that this is a decision that we all have to make
:20:56. > :21:00.And it shouldn't impede on people's political careers.
:21:01. > :21:03.People should be able to make up their own minds,
:21:04. > :21:06.and not worry about whether they are going to be sidelined or punished
:21:07. > :21:11.Those who do out themselves for out, will need campaign wizards who can
:21:12. > :21:18.Which, of two battling groups, that is yet undecided,
:21:19. > :21:23.but so far both have seen a bad spell of personality clashes
:21:24. > :21:25.and darkening moods way over the heads of most grassroots
:21:26. > :21:29.The chance of winning over undeclared MPs is the magic
:21:30. > :21:39.What we did discover, it's like the dementors slowly
:21:40. > :21:43.sucking the people up out of the air, body
:21:44. > :21:47.I do think that there will be a coming together now,
:21:48. > :21:49.probably for very good reasons, there have been divisions
:21:50. > :21:53.But I think this campaign will not be just politicians.
:21:54. > :21:55.It's about the people versus the elite in many ways.
:21:56. > :21:58.In fact, you have a referendum really in many ways when politicians
:21:59. > :22:01.Meanwhile back in Havering... is they want to do.
:22:02. > :22:06.party motion is therefore carried by 30 votes to 15.
:22:07. > :22:11.So, councillors in Havering have voted for a motion that says
:22:12. > :22:19.Now, there are plenty of councillors who said they don't have any
:22:20. > :22:21.business debating this, they have far more important things
:22:22. > :22:26.But what it might show is that for some people -
:22:27. > :22:28.and in this case, an official elected body -
:22:29. > :22:32.never mind what the date is, and never mind the renegotiation,
:22:33. > :22:40.they would like to make clear their views right now.
:22:41. > :22:42.I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, Steve Baker, co-chairman
:22:43. > :22:45.of Conservatives for Britain and a director of the Vote Leave
:22:46. > :22:55.If the Prime Minister can get an agreement that there will be a break
:22:56. > :22:59.in welfare payments for migrants the day after the referendum, isn't that
:23:00. > :23:04.a powerful thing to take to the country? It's not powerful at all.
:23:05. > :23:07.Bernard Jenkin is the Conservative director of Vote Leave, but we have
:23:08. > :23:10.been told by the OBR that it wouldn't make much difference even
:23:11. > :23:15.if the Prime Minister got this break. They would only take one case
:23:16. > :23:18.brought forward by activist lawyers, and we would expect the European
:23:19. > :23:23.Court of Justice to strike down such a measure. We think it's a red
:23:24. > :23:27.herring, and as John Redwood said, a bad joke. They have ended up trying
:23:28. > :23:31.to manufacture the appearance of success out of very little. As
:23:32. > :23:34.things stand at the moment, there's nothing the Prime Minister would
:23:35. > :23:38.bring back that would make you want to stay in? I've been clear through
:23:39. > :23:43.the whole period that most of us want to end the supremacy of the EU
:23:44. > :23:46.in the UK. Make our own laws in Parliament. The prime ministers had
:23:47. > :23:52.something similar about the European Court of Human Rights. Demanding an
:23:53. > :23:57.opt out from the charter is subbing the Prime Minister has had to give
:23:58. > :24:01.up. So money inconsistencies. The answer is no. I expect a good number
:24:02. > :24:06.of colleagues to join me and campaign to leave at this stage. How
:24:07. > :24:12.many Tory MPs will campaign for out? Of the 150 on the list who have
:24:13. > :24:22.expressed interest, and about a fifth have made up their minds, I
:24:23. > :24:25.think about 50-70. No more than 50 or 70 Tory MPs campaigning on your
:24:26. > :24:30.side of the referendum to leave? That would be my expectation at this
:24:31. > :24:35.stage. John McDonnell said he wanted to get this out of the wear it, the
:24:36. > :24:38.referendum. Didn't sound to me like Labour would join with the SNP on
:24:39. > :24:43.delaying tactics for the referendum. Would you like the referendum to be
:24:44. > :24:47.later? Realistically we are campaigning out to leave the EU and
:24:48. > :24:53.we have secured our objectives for the campaign. But there is a good
:24:54. > :25:01.case to be made that a June date would trust us. There are elections
:25:02. > :25:05.in neigh, and I think there's a good case for a delay until September. I
:25:06. > :25:09.would prefer the government brought forward a measure that went through
:25:10. > :25:12.the Commons without a row, but if Labour and the SNP and conservative
:25:13. > :25:20.colleagues wish to put something through, then we will be able to
:25:21. > :25:26.what's the biggest beach from the -- beast on the cabinet you would like
:25:27. > :25:29.to get? I haven't ruled anybody out. But I'm happy to go into the
:25:30. > :25:35.campaign without any Cabinet big beasts. It would be surprised this
:25:36. > :25:41.point if Chris Grayling didn't join us. He would count as a big beast,
:25:42. > :25:53.leader of the house. People know which Cabinet members are discussed.
:25:54. > :25:56.Theresa May? She made a speech on immigration which would be difficult
:25:57. > :26:01.to recalibrate with the EU. It's a matter for her. You've given up on
:26:02. > :26:08.Bryce Johnson? He occasionally flirts with it in the press. But
:26:09. > :26:11.he's a typical conservative, he loves Europe, he would like Europe
:26:12. > :26:19.to be different, but we'll see what he does when the comes. The
:26:20. > :26:24.different leave campaigns, it's flawed with blood, when will you
:26:25. > :26:29.stop knocking lumps out of each other? I'm not knocking lumps out of
:26:30. > :26:32.anybody and I regret this week that we've had distractions from the core
:26:33. > :26:37.aim of leaving the EU and I regret they have got their way to the
:26:38. > :26:40.press. Everybody involved needs to reach a resolution, everybody
:26:41. > :26:46.involved wants to move on and I hope we do so quickly, let's fight a
:26:47. > :26:49.winning campaign. You are not the director of Vote Leave but you are
:26:50. > :26:52.on the Parliamentary planning committee for Vote Leave, so you are
:26:53. > :26:56.associated. Did you agree with the attempts to get rid of the two
:26:57. > :27:00.full-time people running it, Dominic Cummings and Matthew Elliott? This
:27:01. > :27:05.is a matter for the board. Do you agree with whether they should have
:27:06. > :27:09.gone? At this stage it's very late in the day to make such a profound
:27:10. > :27:19.change. But given the severe concerns of my colleagues, it is
:27:20. > :27:22.clear there will have to be material changes in Vote Leave in order to
:27:23. > :27:24.carry parliamentarians with the campaign. What this material change
:27:25. > :27:27.mean? There has to be a greater degree of involvement with planetary
:27:28. > :27:31.and so they think they are shaping the campaign to win over those
:27:32. > :27:37.voters we need. Will there be a merger in the end? Surely that's
:27:38. > :27:40.what all of you need, you are up against the government, is huge
:27:41. > :27:45.machine, don't you need to be united? It's a David and Goliath
:27:46. > :27:50.battle and we need to be united. The process of unity will come through
:27:51. > :27:55.designation. Realistically, leave. EU is looking at the Courville,
:27:56. > :28:02.where as Vote Leave knows we need the swing vote. -- looking at the
:28:03. > :28:08.core vote. I'm confident that Vote Leave can and will win the
:28:09. > :28:10.referendum. I wouldn't give away the mop in case there is more blood to
:28:11. > :28:12.referendum. I wouldn't give away the wipe up.
:28:13. > :28:15.One of David Cameron's four key demands in his EU
:28:16. > :28:18.renegotiation concerns competitiveness.
:28:19. > :28:21.The Prime Minister says the burden of regulation on businesses is too
:28:22. > :28:23.high, and that the EU needs to strengthen the single market
:28:24. > :28:25.and accelerate trade agreements with America and China.
:28:26. > :28:28.Arguments about the economic costs or benefits of membership will form
:28:29. > :28:31.a large part of the referendum campaign, with both sides keen
:28:32. > :28:38.Those campaigning to remain within the EU say our membership
:28:39. > :28:41.is worth ?3000 to every household in Britain.
:28:42. > :28:47.It's based on a CBI claim that the UK's economy is 5% bigger
:28:48. > :28:54.They also claim that 3 million jobs are linked
:28:55. > :28:57.to trade within the EU, that 45% of UK exports of goods
:28:58. > :29:02.and services go to the EU, and that the value of
:29:03. > :29:08.trade with the EU is ?133 billion higher than it would be if we left.
:29:09. > :29:16.Those who argue we would be better off if we left claim that
:29:17. > :29:18.regulations imposed on business by the EU cost over
:29:19. > :29:24.They say the 3 million figure on jobs is
:29:25. > :29:26.dependent on trade with the EU, not membership.
:29:27. > :29:29.They argue that the trade would continue if we voted to leave,
:29:30. > :29:32.because we currently import more than we export from the EU.
:29:33. > :29:35.So its members would want free trade to remain.
:29:36. > :29:38.They further point out that the importance of UK trade
:29:39. > :29:46.They cite ONS figures showing that the proportion
:29:47. > :29:49.of UK exports heading for the EU fell from 54.8% in 1999
:29:50. > :29:59.But an analysis by the House of Commons Library in 2013
:30:00. > :30:02.of numerous studies into the economic
:30:03. > :30:04.impact of EU membership found no consensus either way,
:30:05. > :30:13.So, which side will manage to convince voters?
:30:14. > :30:15.I'm joined now by the former trade minister Digby Jones
:30:16. > :30:17.and Richard Reed, who founded Innocent Smoothies,
:30:18. > :30:20.who is campaigning for Britain to stay in the EU.
:30:21. > :30:31.Welcome. Digby Jones, the EU accounts for 45% of our exports. Why
:30:32. > :30:38.would you risk any of that? That will not change. Because in the
:30:39. > :30:44.morning after any referendum result, Germany, it is pivotal on Germany,
:30:45. > :30:48.would immediately want some form of tariff free arrangement with
:30:49. > :30:54.Britain. They make a million cars they sell in Britain a year. 75 to
:30:55. > :31:00.80% of all the trains in this country are built in Dusseldorf. We
:31:01. > :31:07.do not know for sure? No. Germany does it and the others follow. There
:31:08. > :31:13.are many arguments to stay in. But the one thing we should kill now is
:31:14. > :31:19.that not one job in Britain is at risk because of EU membership. Not
:31:20. > :31:23.one. There would be a free-trade agreement because we are so
:31:24. > :31:27.important to Europe. And by the way that does not mean there are not
:31:28. > :31:32.other reasons why not -- why we might not want to be in or out. I
:31:33. > :31:38.get so frustrated when people talk about jobs at risk. It is rubbish.
:31:39. > :31:43.That is very easy thing to call total nonsense. It is clear that if
:31:44. > :31:47.your biggest market is suddenly interfered with, that it will not
:31:48. > :31:49.somehow affect trade, does not make sense. You know more than most
:31:50. > :31:55.people that businesses need certainty. What we have right now is
:31:56. > :31:59.unfettered access to the largest market in the world. The fact that
:32:00. > :32:04.we want to start playing around with this and that is good for business,
:32:05. > :32:08.it does not make sense. I do not see the added value in belonging to a
:32:09. > :32:23.club that fetters small businesses in this country every day.
:32:24. > :32:52.Would you want to have a shop that had 60 people or 500 people walk by?
:32:53. > :32:58.You can achieve that from a free-trade agreement. Which we have.
:32:59. > :33:04.You get the sales prevention team in Brussels. They are trying to say
:33:05. > :33:09.this is how you will live your life, small business in Hartlepool. And by
:33:10. > :33:14.the way, the same rules will apply to 520 million people, but we all
:33:15. > :33:17.know that southern Europe, compliance is a voluntary event. We
:33:18. > :33:20.know that the French do not obey these rules and then what happens is
:33:21. > :33:24.that we in northern Europe, we are by no means the best, Scandinavia is
:33:25. > :33:28.better than us, we will be the stuff and baseball business which does not
:33:29. > :33:33.have or be assisting in Brussels arguing the case... And you know
:33:34. > :33:38.this small businesses. Let Richard comeback. Britain loves
:33:39. > :33:43.a bit of regulation, you are quite correct. If we were to come out and
:33:44. > :33:46.UCB will still a treat, we will have to comply with the regulation
:33:47. > :33:52.because that is the conditions of the free trade, so we will not avoid
:33:53. > :33:57.the regulation. It is their father we are in or out. But if we are in,
:33:58. > :34:01.we get to have our voice heard. You tell that to all of the money men in
:34:02. > :34:07.the city that have seen Brussels hammer down with regulation. You see
:34:08. > :34:12.how bad it gets. You see how bad it gets when we are
:34:13. > :34:18.not there at the big table where the decisions get made. We are one of
:34:19. > :34:21.the three big forces in Europe. We are one of the three biggest
:34:22. > :34:29.economies in Europe. In fact... Digby Jones, it seems
:34:30. > :34:34.that you assume we will still have unfettered access to the single
:34:35. > :34:40.market. It has been pointed out by Stephen -- Mr Reid that the
:34:41. > :34:44.conditions of the single market could lead to other costs, for
:34:45. > :34:48.example the free movement of people could be a problem. It would not
:34:49. > :34:51.change things. Let us explore that because I am
:34:52. > :34:55.very concerned that this referendum will become a referendum Trulli on
:34:56. > :35:03.immigration allowed in the street. When they ought to be discussing how
:35:04. > :35:07.can European Union reform improve the life of an unemployed
:35:08. > :35:10.25-year-old in Madrid and a single mother in Athens? How can economic
:35:11. > :35:15.power and otherwise, business, how can it be seen as a driver to get
:35:16. > :35:22.the standard of living up? Have you be sure economy on exporting olives
:35:23. > :35:26.and BMWs, you will go bust. They're asking you to subsidise the growth
:35:27. > :35:30.of all those in the hope that for some reason unskilled people in
:35:31. > :35:32.southern Europe will do this. From migration, Andrew, give or get
:35:33. > :35:39.unskilled people in Europe coming to rich countries instead of getting
:35:40. > :35:41.skilled people in Europe being marketable in northern Europe and
:35:42. > :35:47.you can only pull that off with reform.
:35:48. > :35:50.But if we are not in Europe we cannot do the reform.
:35:51. > :35:54.We must not campaign to stop these people coming, we must campaign to
:35:55. > :36:00.get the skills base of Europe up so that they get wealthier and more
:36:01. > :36:02.importantly they are more marketable in our markets.
:36:03. > :36:05.The British government has enough trouble getting the skills base
:36:06. > :36:11.right in Britain never mind in southern Europe. But if we are out
:36:12. > :36:16.we do not reform. Richard, you have said that inside the club we can
:36:17. > :36:20.influence the rules. Hold on, let me put the question. The British have
:36:21. > :36:24.been on the wrong end of EU majorities on these rules more than
:36:25. > :36:28.any other country that is a member of the EU. We rarely get our way on
:36:29. > :36:34.these things. Are you joking? We have the best
:36:35. > :36:39.possible setup. We are part of the EU, we said no to the euro, we said
:36:40. > :36:46.no to Schengen, we said no to forced my greater rate targets.
:36:47. > :36:50.So why do we have so many majority votes?
:36:51. > :36:54.This is a once in a generation decision, we have to get it right.
:36:55. > :36:58.The big picture is this, it is a causal opportunity to be part of
:36:59. > :37:02.Europe and we have the best version of the deal.
:37:03. > :37:06.Richard, when you and I, years ago, I was at the CBI, we were arguing
:37:07. > :37:10.cases about should be join or not the euro. I can remember sitting in
:37:11. > :37:19.television students and been told the world would end. The sun would
:37:20. > :37:22.not rise in the morning and we would go to Armageddon and bag if we did
:37:23. > :37:25.not join the euro. We made the right decision about the
:37:26. > :37:29.euro... The world is not about to end but this interview has come to
:37:30. > :37:33.an end. Thank you both and this debate will continue. You are
:37:34. > :37:37.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland to
:37:38. > :37:43.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:37:44. > :37:49.As Labour's new leadership fights its first election,
:37:50. > :37:52.we'll ask its deputy leader about the battle to get
:37:53. > :38:06.And here is the deal, inside. I can show you.
:38:07. > :38:09.Is it possible that Labour - once the predominant force
:38:10. > :38:12.in Scottish politics - might have to rely on the regional
:38:13. > :38:19.list to get any MSPs at Holyrood after May's election?
:38:20. > :38:21.A reminder: The list was put into place in the Scottish Parliament
:38:22. > :38:24.to make it more proportional and, bluntly, to stop any one party
:38:25. > :38:26.getting an overall majority - a provision which the SNP
:38:27. > :38:31.If the polls are to be trusted, they could well do so again.
:38:32. > :38:33.A ballot of Labour members, which decides who gets
:38:34. > :38:35.onto the party's list and, crucially, who gets to the top
:38:36. > :38:39.And we'll get the results at the end of the week.
:38:40. > :38:43.They sing it with conviction. But the tide of history seems to be
:38:44. > :38:46.against them. The SNP have achieved what the polls
:38:47. > :38:51.predicted and more and hold more seats than any other party, a dream
:38:52. > :38:54.of a night for them. But it has been a disastrous nightmare for the
:38:55. > :39:01.Labour Party and the Lib Dems... Poll suggested that after losing all
:39:02. > :39:03.but one Westminster MP at the general election...
:39:04. > :39:06.We almost broke the swingometer with the result from Scotland. The Labour
:39:07. > :39:11.Party may be about to lose all of their constituency MSPs at Holyrood.
:39:12. > :39:14.We have seen that in polling for quite some time now that the
:39:15. > :39:17.Scottish Labour Party are going to be reliant upon the regional list,
:39:18. > :39:24.which is really astounding for a party which at one point in Scotland
:39:25. > :39:29.was in government at every level. So, spin that is good news then. It
:39:30. > :39:32.is not about trying to find a silver lining, it is about getting the
:39:33. > :39:38.Scottish Labour Party back on its feet and providing the electorate
:39:39. > :39:41.with a choice. The Scottish Labour Party had the belief for frankly far
:39:42. > :39:47.too long that it had a right to rule. What the electorate has very
:39:48. > :39:49.kindly demonstrated to the Scottish Labour Party is that that idea is
:39:50. > :39:54.nonsense. We have a project here and it might
:39:55. > :39:58.be that the people we elect in the month of May will be part of a
:39:59. > :40:03.2-term project, where we get new people in now and they are maybe not
:40:04. > :40:06.the finished article but it is people that the public can start to
:40:07. > :40:14.grow and feel that these are people who are standing up for us in our
:40:15. > :40:18.communities and across the region. That means seeing the Ann Sable,
:40:19. > :40:20.about seeing who is responsible. There is a lot of dead wood in the
:40:21. > :40:27.Labour Scottish Parliament. The voters are very clear. Labour has
:40:28. > :40:32.not cut the mustard and there is no point in Labour politicians docking
:40:33. > :40:42.this fact. We have had too many people historically at all levels of
:40:43. > :40:45.party representation, at council level, at Scottish Parliament and at
:40:46. > :40:50.Westminster who were simply not up to the job.
:40:51. > :40:53.The Dutch elm disease taught us there is only one thing to do with
:40:54. > :40:56.dead wood and perhaps Scottish Labour needs to learn that its new
:40:57. > :41:01.rule is making the best of opposition.
:41:02. > :41:05.What frustrates me when I watch First Minister's Questions and not
:41:06. > :41:07.many people do, you know, we have MSPs in the Parliament who do not
:41:08. > :41:14.really hold the government to account and I include SNP MSPs in
:41:15. > :41:17.that, you do not see scrutiny in the committees and often you see that in
:41:18. > :41:21.the House of Commons happen a bit better than it does here. So it is
:41:22. > :41:25.about holding the government to account but it is also about coming
:41:26. > :41:30.up with fresh ideas. So is there a grand plan behind all
:41:31. > :41:35.of this? Something to rebuild trust and turn Scottish Labour once more
:41:36. > :41:38.into a government in waiting? To the outside observer I think it
:41:39. > :41:44.is very difficult to see what that plan is. Nothing is changing,
:41:45. > :41:47.nothing is changing the polls. EC SNP dominance and have done for many
:41:48. > :41:51.months. There does not seem to be any clearer way back for the Labour
:41:52. > :41:54.Party at the moment. We's new leader and her deputy are
:41:55. > :41:59.the only two people guaranteed a place on the party's regional list.
:42:00. > :42:00.The question is, while the ballot of members deliver the fresh faces who
:42:01. > :42:08.Huw Williams there. might start
:42:09. > :42:10.Well, I'm joined now by the Deputy Leader
:42:11. > :42:19.What do you make of what Thomas Docherty was telling us? He said
:42:20. > :42:23.that quite a lot of the people he had seen represent Labour put until
:42:24. > :42:28.now have not been up to the job? I think I look at things
:42:29. > :42:30.differently. I think that Westminster politics, for example,
:42:31. > :42:36.were completely out of touch with the reality of the everyday lives of
:42:37. > :42:44.people. I think Labour paid the price for that. In all walks of
:42:45. > :42:46.government there will be different people giving different things and
:42:47. > :42:52.bringing different experience is to the Parliament. It is the same in
:42:53. > :42:55.local government. People will bring different experiences.
:42:56. > :42:58.In the last Scottish elections, you know that you got more people in
:42:59. > :43:02.that you did not expect because of the rare that it went, you got more
:43:03. > :43:08.on the list and your constituencies. Presumably there was some Deadwood.
:43:09. > :43:12.That is the long-term. Kezia Dugdale has done since becoming leader, is
:43:13. > :43:16.that we have opened up the party and part of that process has been that
:43:17. > :43:19.we have opened up this election from the lists and that is why we have
:43:20. > :43:24.gone through this process. That has resulted in a lot of new people
:43:25. > :43:27.coming forward and that should be welcomed. At the end of the day, the
:43:28. > :43:30.Labour Party itself must be in touch with the communities it seeks to
:43:31. > :43:34.serve, it must be able to demonstrate that it knows what the
:43:35. > :43:40.big priorities are, so it needs to have the policies, and needs to be
:43:41. > :43:44.clear what it stands for. I think we lost all of that in the last eight
:43:45. > :43:50.years, perhaps longer and we paid the price for that.
:43:51. > :43:54.You lost any sense of the relatively of...
:43:55. > :43:59.The sense of direction, actually what it was that Labour stood for.
:44:00. > :44:03.So we have to restate that and set out what our vision is. We have to
:44:04. > :44:07.set out our policies in terms of delivering that vision. If you look
:44:08. > :44:11.at the reality of everyday life, in my constituency there are major
:44:12. > :44:15.issues, people are struggling to get GP appointments, people are
:44:16. > :44:19.struggling to get through A, struggling to get housing, the
:44:20. > :44:23.basics in life. Their budgets and schools are being cut, these are the
:44:24. > :44:26.everyday issues that people are dealing with.
:44:27. > :44:30.I remember Kezia Dugdale telling us she wanted to see new faces in the
:44:31. > :44:33.Scottish Parliament, people who have perhaps not even been in the Labour
:44:34. > :44:44.Party at the time of the last election. Given the
:44:45. > :44:48.number of people you have fighting to get onto these top list places,
:44:49. > :44:50.realistically, will be see any of these new faces?
:44:51. > :44:52.Two points. The first one Kezia made was that you will not change this
:44:53. > :44:55.overnight. It will take time. We are here for the long haul. She is in it
:44:56. > :44:58.for the long haul. But will we see these new faces in
:44:59. > :45:04.this election? Many have come forward.
:45:05. > :45:09.But will we see any of them at the top? Would you like to see them?
:45:10. > :45:14.I think there will be new faces but they are in the hands of our
:45:15. > :45:18.membership. Would you like new members in?
:45:19. > :45:20.Yes, but at least hustings meetings there have been new faces and
:45:21. > :45:25.experience. But would you like people to vote?
:45:26. > :45:29.Are you telling us you would like people to vote for not Mrs Ali
:45:30. > :45:33.people who were not in the Labour Party but not Mrs Ali... You would
:45:34. > :45:37.like people not to vote for the current plot in Parliament?
:45:38. > :45:42.I would like for people to listen to what is being said and vote for them
:45:43. > :45:47.accordingly. Every Labour Party member has evoked. If you look back
:45:48. > :45:53.to fifth, for example in 2012, new people came and that had not been in
:45:54. > :45:58.longer than a matter of weeks. From the outside it appears that
:45:59. > :46:01.there is this massive scramble going on by existing politicians because
:46:02. > :46:05.you know you will lose constituency seats and they want the list. You,
:46:06. > :46:09.yourself, you said when you were standing for the get good leadership
:46:10. > :46:14.that you would not take up the right to be at the top of the list and yet
:46:15. > :46:17.here you are at the top of the list, why did you do that?
:46:18. > :46:21.We are going to fight for every vote but we are being realistic. We know
:46:22. > :46:25.where the polls are at. Our job between now and the election is to
:46:26. > :46:28.set out a progressive agenda and demonstrate because I was not good
:46:29. > :46:36.to spend the most of the last few months trying to fight for a list
:46:37. > :46:39.seat when I needed to be doing my job as Deputy Leader and that is why
:46:40. > :46:41.I changed my light -- changed my mind.
:46:42. > :46:43.The implication is that you have no confidence in yourself to win your
:46:44. > :46:47.constituency. I am fighting hard to win my
:46:48. > :46:51.constituency as we are across Scotland. Realistically we know
:46:52. > :46:55.where the polls are, we know that there is a mountain to climb but we
:46:56. > :46:59.are confident that if we can setup a much clearer vision for the Labour
:47:00. > :47:02.Party in Scotland and set out a vision for the future of Scotland...
:47:03. > :47:07.Labour is the only party in Scotland are doing for change, we are arguing
:47:08. > :47:09.for change in the way that we do the powers that we have and how we will
:47:10. > :47:26.use the powers that are coming to the Scottish
:47:27. > :47:29.Parliament. You clearly don't think you are
:47:30. > :47:32.going to win your own seat. Not true. Why are you on the top of the
:47:33. > :47:35.regional list? Realistic discord for we are going to lose? We know that
:47:36. > :47:37.it would be difficult to hold onto first past the post seats. We have
:47:38. > :47:40.to set out our agenda and policies and we will work hard for every
:47:41. > :47:44.vote. We will give people a reason to vote for the Labour Party and to
:47:45. > :47:47.trust us once again. That is our objective. Lastly, you
:47:48. > :47:52.talk about new Labour and a new image. The only thing you have, with
:47:53. > :48:00.recently or the main thing, is a plan to give money to first-time
:48:01. > :48:01.buyers, this is money that was previously hypothecated to help
:48:02. > :48:09.people who were suffering from the cuts to the working benefits. Is
:48:10. > :48:11.that a policy you are enthused about?
:48:12. > :48:18.We seek to build 45,000 council houses. That is significant.
:48:19. > :48:21.Hand-outs to first-time buyers? We have a housing crisis in
:48:22. > :48:25.Scotland. We have made it clear we want are injured the living wage
:48:26. > :48:32.across the social sector. For all those people working in home care on
:48:33. > :48:36.the minimum wage, the living wage, believe me, will make a difference.
:48:37. > :48:39.We have been clear that we must invest in jobs.
:48:40. > :48:43.Do you agree with the first-time buyer policy?
:48:44. > :48:50.That will give people the opportunity. Yes, I do agree with
:48:51. > :48:52.that. But moreover I agree with balding 45,000 council houses in
:48:53. > :48:55.Scotland that are desperately needed.
:48:56. > :48:57.Alex Rowley, we will have to be put there. Thank you for coming in.
:48:58. > :48:59.David Cameron's efforts to redraw the UK's relationship
:49:00. > :49:02.He's hosting the president of the European Council,
:49:03. > :49:06.And he does so in the week that the former prime minister,
:49:07. > :49:09.Tony Blair, predicted that if the UK votes to leave the EU,
:49:10. > :49:12.A senior EU commissioner has told the Sunday Politics that Scotland
:49:13. > :49:14.should not have to choose between membership of the UK
:49:15. > :49:17.Our political correspondent, Glenn Campbell, is just back
:49:18. > :49:29.Version when David Cameron has been to Brussels, bringing home a box of
:49:30. > :49:37.Belgium chocolates is not nearly enough. He wants new terms for UK
:49:38. > :49:41.membership of the EU and after this week's talks with the European
:49:42. > :49:45.Commission President a deal seems closer. There is a proposal on the
:49:46. > :49:51.table. It is not good enough and it needs more work but we are making
:49:52. > :49:58.progress. No bargain will satisfy Nigel Farage. He wants the UK out of
:49:59. > :50:05.the EU. An independent United Kingdom that makes its own laws, but
:50:06. > :50:10.takes back a fishing limit in Scotland that would bring thousands
:50:11. > :50:14.of jobs. This is a UK wide opportunity to become an
:50:15. > :50:19.independent, sovereign nation again. At the European Commission, top
:50:20. > :50:27.officials warned the UK against self exclusion. You will lose more than
:50:28. > :50:34.you gain. I think it would be best if he concentrates to make sure the
:50:35. > :50:39.UK, a ball of the member of the family, stays in the family. Which
:50:40. > :50:44.may defer questions about Scotland's future. We make every effort for the
:50:45. > :50:52.Scottish people not to have to face a choice between Britain and the EU.
:50:53. > :51:03.That is not a choice that you would like to face. She was speaking after
:51:04. > :51:13.Tony Blair told French radio that if the UK votes to leave Europe
:51:14. > :51:20.Scotland will go to leave the UK. Tony Blair finds himself in a
:51:21. > :51:24.curious agreement with the First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, who has
:51:25. > :51:29.argued that if the UK was to vote to leave and Scotland voted to stay in,
:51:30. > :51:36.then the clamour for another referendum on Scottish independence
:51:37. > :51:40.may be unstoppable. I think this is another scare tactic. If we vote to
:51:41. > :51:45.leave the EU, the United Kingdom will break up and we will all live
:51:46. > :51:50.in poverty. We have heard this before and it will not work. If
:51:51. > :51:55.David Cameron's next get-together with other EU leaders instead they
:51:56. > :52:03.result in a deal he could call the EU vote as early as June. This
:52:04. > :52:09.former Belgian Prime Minister is watching our debate closely. He
:52:10. > :52:13.wants the UK vote sooner rather than later, but he is worried that the
:52:14. > :52:22.momentum may be with the campaign to leave. At the moment the campaign
:52:23. > :52:26.around Britain is about leaving the EU, it is saying the European Union
:52:27. > :52:31.does not work very well and we have a number of requests and if they are
:52:32. > :52:37.not fulfilled then we are going to vote no. My only fear is that it has
:52:38. > :52:45.become a self-fulfilling prophecy. David Cameron hopes to argue for the
:52:46. > :52:50.UK to remain in a reformed EU if he can get the turns. He continues the
:52:51. > :52:52.negotiation today with Donald past who acts as a go-between with other
:52:53. > :52:56.EU leaders. -- Donald Tusk. A little earlier I spoke
:52:57. > :52:58.to the Conservative MEP David Campbell Bannerman, who's
:52:59. > :53:00.co-chairman of the Conservatives I began by asking him
:53:01. > :53:04.what he thought of David Cameron's efforts to secure a temporary ban
:53:05. > :53:18.on the payment of in-work benefits I think the emergency brake proposal
:53:19. > :53:24.is complete nonsense. We would have to prove to the EU that our public
:53:25. > :53:28.services were in crisis, GPs and hospitals and schools, and if we're
:53:29. > :53:33.lucky they would then hold a vote on it and we would need a majority.
:53:34. > :53:37.That is not control of your own country that is handing it to
:53:38. > :53:41.Europe. If David Cameron is going to say this is not good enough and he
:53:42. > :53:48.once more, you sound as if you do not have much faith in that. The
:53:49. > :53:52.renegotiation process has turned into a sham. It is very trivial. The
:53:53. > :53:59.renegotiation process has turned British people want control back of
:54:00. > :54:02.their borders particularly, economic control, democratic control, and
:54:03. > :54:08.this is not satisfying that need and I think they will vote to leave. You
:54:09. > :54:14.describe it as a sham. Perhaps a polite word would be theatre. Are
:54:15. > :54:19.you expecting more of this? I hope I'm not being too cynical, but one
:54:20. > :54:25.would expect that due to refusals on either side, there may not be a deal
:54:26. > :54:31.until 4am in the morning. Harold Wilson went through a similar
:54:32. > :54:34.exercise that fooled the British people in 1975. It was only the
:54:35. > :54:41.Highlands, Ireland and Scotland that voted not to join the UC. I think
:54:42. > :54:49.parts of Scotland are very Eurosceptic. -- join the EU. You're
:54:50. > :54:56.seeing Jim Sillars coming out. The SNP were in favour of leaving the EU
:54:57. > :55:00.before 1992. The polls up here sure there is a substantial majority for
:55:01. > :55:05.staying in the EU. I accept that what we have not had a proper debate
:55:06. > :55:10.yet. We need to see what this package brings out of Brussels. I am
:55:11. > :55:14.not confident. We wanted to see fundamental change and this is not
:55:15. > :55:20.fundamental change, but I think this will be closer than people think. As
:55:21. > :55:26.we know in Scotland, the General Election polls often do not give the
:55:27. > :55:30.right cancer. One of the criticisms is that people like you will never
:55:31. > :55:34.change your mind, it does matter what David Cameron. -- do not give
:55:35. > :55:53.the right cancer. -- cancer. Scotland is the second-largest
:55:54. > :55:56.contributor to the EU. But my point stands. It does not matter what
:55:57. > :56:03.David Cameron does, you will always say it is not good enough. We were
:56:04. > :56:07.looking at fundamental change and this is not fundamental change. If
:56:08. > :56:12.you offer that to the British people they might vote to stay end. The
:56:13. > :56:18.only change we are going to get as if we leave the EU. It sounds
:56:19. > :56:27.dramatic, but we are not. -- it is not. We would get an excellent deal.
:56:28. > :56:36.You consider yourself a conservative and a unionist. If there is a Safari
:56:37. > :56:40.no -- if there is a scenario where Scotland votes to stay in the EU and
:56:41. > :56:43.the rest of the UK votes to leave, that might lead to another
:56:44. > :56:50.referendum and the break-up of the United Kingdom. It is totally
:56:51. > :56:54.illogical. If the UK leads the EU and in Scotland votes to stay
:56:55. > :56:59.outside of both the EU and the UK for years. The British Prime
:57:00. > :57:06.Minister said there is a long queue to join the EU. There is Serbia,
:57:07. > :57:13.Turkey, Albania, Scotland will be behind them. I think it would be a
:57:14. > :57:17.disaster for them. That is an argument, but the least one can say
:57:18. > :57:21.is that if this scenario comes to pass it will make the United Kingdom
:57:22. > :57:27.is less stable than it is at the moment. I think it will be more
:57:28. > :57:33.stable because I think Scotland will be less able and willing to break
:57:34. > :57:46.away. We could devolve powers now held by the EU back to Scotland,
:57:47. > :57:51.fishing, farming, parts of trade, tourism, energy and the environment,
:57:52. > :57:55.a lot of these powers are with the EU and not Westminster. I think the
:57:56. > :57:58.Scottish people will feel more independent if we left the EU. Thank
:57:59. > :58:01.you. And I'm joined now from Edinburgh
:58:02. > :58:14.by the SNP's Europe spokesperson, What about that last point? Is it
:58:15. > :58:19.slightly odd for a national list to be in favour of staying in the EU?
:58:20. > :58:24.Alec Salmond always made a big thing about being critical of the fishing
:58:25. > :58:29.policy and wanting power is repatriated to Scotland. This is
:58:30. > :58:32.your big chance. He has missed the point little bit on the European
:58:33. > :58:39.Union because it is the member state that govern what goes on in the
:58:40. > :58:49.European Union. The European Union could never force Scotland to take
:58:50. > :58:54.Trident nuclear missiles. He is giving the example of fisheries.
:58:55. > :58:57.That is one of the pillars of the European Union. You cannot be a
:58:58. > :59:02.member of the European Union unless you accept the common fisheries
:59:03. > :59:07.policy. David Cameron ruled out treaty change quite early on and
:59:08. > :59:10.that is something we might of needed for the fisheries policy. Something
:59:11. > :59:14.that we will agree on is that this has been a huge missed opportunity
:59:15. > :59:18.by the Prime Minister to get some real change. No one says that the EU
:59:19. > :59:23.does not need reformed, we would like to see fisheries and public
:59:24. > :59:29.health back in Scotland, but he has not taken that opportunity to take
:59:30. > :59:33.them back. Well vote no and have them back. No, because overall it is
:59:34. > :59:38.better to be in the European Union. It is good for jobs in the economy
:59:39. > :59:49.and climate change and security. Your message to fishermen you might
:59:50. > :59:55.see benefits of repatriated policy to Scotland but in the bigger
:59:56. > :00:01.picture it does not matter. We would like to be in there trying to reform
:00:02. > :00:04.it. For example, the Conservatives and others who want to leave often
:00:05. > :00:12.hauled up the example of Norway. Norway is in a position where it has
:00:13. > :00:16.no say in the European Union but has to adhere to its rules. The oil and
:00:17. > :00:21.gas industry in Norway were talking about that recently. I think the
:00:22. > :00:28.idea that you leave the European Union and is not the case. Norway
:00:29. > :00:34.does not have to adhere to the common fisheries policy. It does
:00:35. > :00:38.have to adhere to other issues. Its politicians often complain about
:00:39. > :00:43.that. If David Cameron had been serious about fisheries and other
:00:44. > :00:47.issues he would have taken it to the negotiation table but he did not
:00:48. > :00:52.bother. So your opportunity to get these powers back is to vote no.
:00:53. > :00:56.Overall we think it is better to be part of the European Union with the
:00:57. > :01:00.economic benefits it brings and the jobs that it brings. It benefits
:01:01. > :01:03.small and big business and it is overall better to be part of the
:01:04. > :01:10.European Union. In Scotland votes yes and the rest of the UK votes no,
:01:11. > :01:12.as Tony Blair discussed this week, do you think you would have
:01:13. > :01:18.legitimacy Collin for another independence referendum. I think so.
:01:19. > :01:22.I put down amendments that were backed by my colleagues to avoid the
:01:23. > :01:27.situation. We pit down amendments that meant that England, Scotland,
:01:28. > :01:32.Northern Ireland and Wales would have to vote to leave the European
:01:33. > :01:37.Union for the vote to be valid, but they were rejected. We might see a
:01:38. > :01:40.breakdown in what is meant to be a partnership of equals but we did put
:01:41. > :01:47.down amendments that would have darker David Cameron out of this
:01:48. > :01:50.hole. The SNP policy is that you should be campaigning to vote yes in
:01:51. > :01:56.Scotland and hoping desperately that people in England vote no. No, we
:01:57. > :02:06.want to stay in the European Union and we are campaigning to vote yes.
:02:07. > :02:12.It was more important than fisheries a moment ago. I put only amendments
:02:13. > :02:16.to make sure that Scotland could not be taken out the European Union
:02:17. > :02:21.against its Wales. We pit down those amendments and they were rejected.
:02:22. > :02:27.It is said picking that they were rejected. In Scotland is taken out
:02:28. > :02:33.of the European Union against its will, a breakdown in the
:02:34. > :02:35.relationship of equals. Thank you for joining us this morning.
:02:36. > :02:36.Liz Lochhead has been Scotland's national poet -
:02:37. > :02:41.As her time in the role draws to a close today,
:02:42. > :02:44.she came to the studio to reflect on her time in the role.
:02:45. > :02:49.I began by asking her if she had enjoyed the role.
:02:50. > :02:56.Being the Makar? Absolutely, it has been fantastic. It has been
:02:57. > :03:03.wonderful. I have had a bit of prominence when I'm fading away. You
:03:04. > :03:09.get after do a lot of things. There have been less gigs turning up as
:03:10. > :03:17.you hit your 60s. It is just the people that used to invite you along
:03:18. > :03:23.to the arts centres are now dead. Some people who have been Paul
:03:24. > :03:27.Lawrie at think it is constraining. Did you expect to turn up in write
:03:28. > :03:32.an ode to the fiscal framework? It was not like that at all. I was
:03:33. > :03:36.asked to do poems on particular subjects and sometimes I wrote
:03:37. > :03:43.things that I would not have written otherwise. I wrote up or you I like
:03:44. > :03:49.about encouraging people to join the children's panel. It was social
:03:50. > :03:52.things. I did a poorly for the opening of the last Parliament and
:03:53. > :03:59.it wasn't the best one I have ever written. I responded to what Edwin
:04:00. > :04:04.Morgan did for the opening of the Parliament building. It has been
:04:05. > :04:10.fantastic and it is nice to be invited to do things. I could not
:04:11. > :04:14.always do it, I could not always right a poor young, but I could
:04:15. > :04:23.often find a poor young that the suitable from the Scottish or world
:04:24. > :04:30.canon of poetry. I don't believe you when you say you
:04:31. > :04:33.are fading. I will not be the national poet of Scotland any more,
:04:34. > :04:39.someone else will have that honour and able do it in a different way
:04:40. > :04:48.than I did. Edwin Morgan was the first Makar and it was a lifetime
:04:49. > :04:53.award to him in his early 80s and it was a recognition of what he had
:04:54. > :04:57.done. When he died they thought it would be a good idea to appoint
:04:58. > :05:01.someone every five years. Someone might do a major piece of work and
:05:02. > :05:08.do less public stuff than I have done. It is very open. The job is to
:05:09. > :05:16.promote poetry and life in Scotland and that is a great thing to do.
:05:17. > :05:21.They can ask you, the independence referendum, there was lots of talk
:05:22. > :05:29.about how terribly important it was artistically. It was.
:05:30. > :05:35.Then what we? As Scotland's culture suffered from a No vote?
:05:36. > :05:38.Not because of that but before the referendum people where expressing.
:05:39. > :05:42.You know, a lot of people in the arts where yes voters and I was
:05:43. > :05:47.myself, that was not a secret, I was allowed to have my own opinions. I
:05:48. > :05:52.was not desperately disappointed by the No vote because I had not
:05:53. > :05:56.expected independence at this time. I was not asking some much about
:05:57. > :06:00.that, but more the idea that this whole debate about independence.
:06:01. > :06:04.What about it? People in the artistic world arguing
:06:05. > :06:09.that independence would be liberating for the arts?
:06:10. > :06:13.I think it might have been but also not getting independence is also
:06:14. > :06:17.liberating for the arts because that makes people decide to talk about
:06:18. > :06:23.what is happening. I do not think it was important in that kind of way. I
:06:24. > :06:31.do not think being the portal Laureate for Scotland is important
:06:32. > :06:35.in that party way. The Poet Laureate gives reference to what people say
:06:36. > :06:38.and how important it is and tells people to listen to what is being
:06:39. > :06:44.said and judge how important it is. I was called to finish regarding
:06:45. > :06:50.that. And your considered view, is poetry as important as it has been
:06:51. > :06:53.in the past in Scotland, more important, less important, are you
:06:54. > :07:01.optimistic? Of course. I have worked with young
:07:02. > :07:05.rappers which is also poetry. Poetry is a basic fundamental human rights
:07:06. > :07:10.of people, that is why we do not rhymes with children and that is why
:07:11. > :07:15.the balance, the great ballads tell us stories from the past. It is a
:07:16. > :07:22.basic human instinct like song or dance and for some reason, most
:07:23. > :07:27.countries seem to point a poet to be a poet. I think there should be a
:07:28. > :07:30.dancer in residence or the national dance of Scotland and the national
:07:31. > :07:37.singer of Scotland as well but there is a national and I was very proud
:07:38. > :07:39.to fulfil that role. As best I could, very imperfectly,
:07:40. > :07:43.but as best as I could for five years. Liz Lochhead, we'd better let
:07:44. > :07:49.you get back to your wrapping. Yes! Thank you, Gordon.
:07:50. > :08:03.I'm joined by the Sunday Herald's investigations editor,
:08:04. > :08:05.Paul Hutcheon, and by Paul Sinclair, who's a former advisor
:08:06. > :08:15.What do you think about the state of the Labour Party?
:08:16. > :08:19.It is in a very difficult situation heading up to this election. Earlier
:08:20. > :08:22.in the programme I saw Thomas Docherty talking about the dead wood
:08:23. > :08:28.in the Scottish Labour Party, I think he has a point, there is some
:08:29. > :08:31.dead wood but the difficulty is not replace it with dead wood that got
:08:32. > :08:34.cut off in Westminster. What will be interesting when we see these
:08:35. > :08:40.results of the list elections is how many new people get through.
:08:41. > :08:45.Alex Rowley seemed to believe and claimed that there would be new
:08:46. > :08:49.people but then he said it is up to the members to vote on it. Kezia
:08:50. > :08:53.Dugdale spoke about the sort of phenomenon we have heard from the
:08:54. > :08:57.SNP, people that have hardly been in the Labour Party for any period of
:08:58. > :09:01.time and it has been a surge in membership because of Jeremy Corbyn,
:09:02. > :09:05.will be CNE of them? I understand that Daniel Johnson, a
:09:06. > :09:12.new figure, is doing well and might come top. At the same time, if we're
:09:13. > :09:15.going to have a list that means that Scottish Parliament will be blessed
:09:16. > :09:18.with the bit Oracle skills of David Kelly again, I do not think that is
:09:19. > :09:21.something that will appeal to the Scottish public and that is
:09:22. > :09:26.something that the Labour Party needs to do.
:09:27. > :09:30.I think it is difficult for Kezia Dugdale to make any significant
:09:31. > :09:35.changes to our group driven that there is a declining vote share. --
:09:36. > :09:39.given that. She made a mistake allowing all existing MSPs to stand
:09:40. > :09:44.on the list. Compare that to what Ruth Davidson did, some of her
:09:45. > :09:48.allies tapped her MSPs on the shoulder and said thank you for your
:09:49. > :09:51.service but you will not stand again. I think if Kezia Dugdale and
:09:52. > :09:57.been more brutal, there would be more fresh talent in the group but I
:09:58. > :10:00.think... You referred to some personalities
:10:01. > :10:04.there and it is up to the members to decide who they want but there is
:10:05. > :10:09.all this talk about and we heard from Alex Rowley, new beginnings and
:10:10. > :10:13.being completely different, he said that in the past Labour had not paid
:10:14. > :10:18.attention to the working lives of ordinary people. Where is this New
:10:19. > :10:22.Labour Party and what is it? What it doesn't have, it is the same
:10:23. > :10:25.problem that Ed Miliband had in the general election, there is not a
:10:26. > :10:29.simple story for people to understand what is Labour Party
:10:30. > :10:33.Scotland would look like. Very good party initiatives and they are both
:10:34. > :10:37.well but nothing compelling to people here. I hear what Paul
:10:38. > :10:40.Sinclair says about Kezia Dugdale and not being able to open up the
:10:41. > :10:44.lists, but the problem is the Labour Party is incredibly difficult to
:10:45. > :10:48.manage and one of the difficulties is, if one of the other candidates
:10:49. > :10:52.had won the UK readership, I think Kezia Dugdale would have been given
:10:53. > :10:55.more space to change the party the way that she wanted to.
:10:56. > :10:58.Unfortunately with Jeremy Corbyn she cannot do that and that is the
:10:59. > :11:01.difficulty and I think the Labour Party needs to get through this
:11:02. > :11:10.election and then be serious about reform and reform its system.
:11:11. > :11:17.Paul Hutcheon, there is no clarity that the image of Scottish Labour is
:11:18. > :11:21.the same as that of Jeremy Corbyn's? Yes, there is a mismatch, for the
:11:22. > :11:24.problem is that the Labour Party has, as they did have sensible and
:11:25. > :11:30.moderate leadership they could possibly put AB back but bear it is
:11:31. > :11:34.entirely different. If Scottish Labour was led by Barack Obama and a
:11:35. > :11:37.campaign run by Bill Clinton I think they would still have the same
:11:38. > :11:42.result in the month of May which is about 20% of the vote and 25 MSPs. I
:11:43. > :11:49.do not think there is anything she can do in this short space of time.
:11:50. > :11:53.Why not? When Labour were last in power in Scotland, there was a focus
:11:54. > :11:55.on bread and butter issues like health and education. The
:11:56. > :12:00.post-referendum legacy is that there is a correlation between how you
:12:01. > :12:05.voted in the referendum and how he vote in elections. I think Labour
:12:06. > :12:07.have been left behind on that. To use a football analogy, they are
:12:08. > :12:12.playing away from home and struggling to make up ground.
:12:13. > :12:18.There is a fundamental problem for Labour and that is if you have had
:12:19. > :12:21.18 years of Tory rule, why did people not vote SNP? It was
:12:22. > :12:25.essential because the Labour Party at that point was a nationalist
:12:26. > :12:29.party, it stood up for Scotland and it was about Scotland versus
:12:30. > :12:33.Westminster and people voted for it and liked it but nobody has started
:12:34. > :12:38.to vote for the nationals party because it is the real thing. Labour
:12:39. > :12:41.have to come out with a different story, it has to come out with
:12:42. > :12:51.something new and at the moment they're thinking is not present.
:12:52. > :12:54.Europe, Paul Hutcheon. Briefly. Can the know people are pure make a go
:12:55. > :12:59.of it? I do not think so, the problem they
:13:00. > :13:03.face is leadership. If you look at the yes Lock, we have four party
:13:04. > :13:08.leaders but who is going to beat the No vote? Ukip will not provide any
:13:09. > :13:13.good leadership and I think there is also this cross-party group of
:13:14. > :13:17.politicians who do not agree on anything.
:13:18. > :13:21.What about the UK, do you think they are in with a chance?
:13:22. > :13:25.The big difficulty is that for those who want the UK to remain in Europe,
:13:26. > :13:30.it is now being framed on what to deal David Cameron gets out of the
:13:31. > :13:35.EU, that is a huge mistake. Whatever TV gets, even if it is meaningful,
:13:36. > :13:37.will not be enough for the No vote people. The campaign must be framed
:13:38. > :13:42.on the principle of being part of the EU and I am frightened that it
:13:43. > :13:46.is not being framed like that. -- whatever deal he gets.
:13:47. > :13:49.So you think there is a chance they could win?
:13:50. > :13:50.I think there is a chance. Thank you for both joining us.
:13:51. > :13:55.I'll be back at the same time next week.