:00:43. > :00:53.Good morning, and welcome to the Sunday politics. David Cameron has
:00:54. > :00:54.finally named the day to see whether England remained
:00:55. > :01:12.# Britain remains part of the EU. About a quarter of the ministers who
:01:13. > :01:17.sit with Mr Cameron in the Cabinet don't agree, they have said they
:01:18. > :01:22.will campaign for the UK Tilly. We will be talking to one of those
:01:23. > :01:27.wanting out, leader of the of commons, Chris Grayling. We will be
:01:28. > :01:32.debating over which way this man will swing. The Mayor of London has
:01:33. > :01:38.been apparently agonising over his decision, although all the money is
:01:39. > :01:43.on him supporting the Lead campaign. Jeremy Corbyn wants to stay within
:01:44. > :01:48.the EU saying it would be better for Security and investment. We will be
:01:49. > :02:05.joined by the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn. And with me,
:02:06. > :02:11.three of Fleet street's finest, so, David Cameron has done a deal. Not
:02:12. > :02:17.everyone is convinced, even one of the Prime Minister's best Cabinet
:02:18. > :02:21.buddies, Michael Gove has decided to campaign on the Leeds side. Those
:02:22. > :02:26.who want to stay and those who want to leave have come out all guns
:02:27. > :02:32.blazing this morning. Let's see what David Cameron had to say on show
:02:33. > :02:35.little earlier. If we stay within a reformed EU we know what we are
:02:36. > :02:41.getting. We know how to deal with economic recovery, jobs, if we leave
:02:42. > :02:44.them there is seven-year is uncertainty, and at the end of that
:02:45. > :02:51.process can't be certain that our business will have access to the
:02:52. > :02:55.market so it could cost jobs, or overseas business not investing in
:02:56. > :02:59.Britain. It would be a step into the dark, a real uncertainty and that's
:03:00. > :03:07.just doubt what we don't need in our country right now. Laura, the tone
:03:08. > :03:14.in the language has changed. All the reports from you and others
:03:15. > :03:22.whereabouts Cabinet meeting. Now, of course, the gloves are off. Teresa
:03:23. > :03:32.Bailey is said it was very emotional. I think this is where we
:03:33. > :03:35.will see gut emotions spilling out. He's moved into this campaigning
:03:36. > :03:39.language, because the stakes are so high for him. He knows fine well
:03:40. > :03:44.that he's taking a huge gamble with his only do ship. He's taking a huge
:03:45. > :03:49.gamble with the country's membership the European Union, which he did say
:03:50. > :03:54.he might argue any end to leave, though very few people believe that.
:03:55. > :04:01.The other thing he's taking a gamble with is his own party's union. It
:04:02. > :04:07.still impart a last-minute plea to those waivers to get on his side.
:04:08. > :04:12.This is something we will see play out, perhaps quite dramatically,
:04:13. > :04:15.this blue on blue action. David Cameron isn't going to stand up and
:04:16. > :04:21.debate directly with people opposing him, so he's doing it in a different
:04:22. > :04:27.way. Another thing he has said which was really quite strong and a bit
:04:28. > :04:31.sharp, maybe, he suggested that those, including Boris Johnson who
:04:32. > :04:39.wanted to campaign for out where linking arms with George Galloway
:04:40. > :04:50.and Nigel Farage. What about the waivers? Boris Johnson. He wasn't
:04:51. > :05:01.able to persuade Michael Gove or George Osborne. Will he campaign for
:05:02. > :05:04.out? There is talk as to why the media are so assessed with one
:05:05. > :05:11.politician, but it's not often may have single name recognition, as we
:05:12. > :05:19.do from time to time, you go out campaigning with politicians to see
:05:20. > :05:22.how they do. People come out of the shops to see Boris Johnson, they
:05:23. > :05:27.want their pictures taken with him, he's a rare kind of politician. He
:05:28. > :05:32.can add real fees to a campaign and cut through to the public. Some
:05:33. > :05:36.people love him. Of course, some despise him, but be pointed his
:05:37. > :05:44.addition into the out campaign, which is absolutely what we expect,
:05:45. > :05:49.it will change the dynamics of the campaign, and particularly for the
:05:50. > :05:53.Out side, who haven't landed one obvious leader, it would be a real
:05:54. > :06:02.significant bill after them. We are finally going to hear from Boris at
:06:03. > :06:08.10pm tonight. The surprise would be if he decided to stay in. You never
:06:09. > :06:12.know with Boris Johnson. He's an unpredictable character, and
:06:13. > :06:17.instinctively, many who know him well see at heart he is a Europhile,
:06:18. > :06:22.he's not somebody who is naturally a sceptic. Just briefly, how is it
:06:23. > :06:26.going to play out now between Cabinet ministers on either side.
:06:27. > :06:30.Are they really going to go to hold it together over the weeks of
:06:31. > :06:37.campaigning? One of the story things about this is that we have official
:06:38. > :06:43.division, and officially divided Cabinet and in normal politics they
:06:44. > :06:47.have to stick together, come hell or high water. I think people are going
:06:48. > :06:54.to do their best to be polite, but I think friendships and loyalties will
:06:55. > :06:59.be tested. What it does mean, all of the focus is going to be in Europe.
:07:00. > :07:01.The challenge for David Cameron, whatever the result, is whether he
:07:02. > :07:08.can keep the party together after the vote. So, after a near sleepless
:07:09. > :07:16.night on Friday, European Union -- leaders were meant to agree a deal
:07:17. > :07:19.over a civilised English breakfast. They didn't bother with afternoon
:07:20. > :07:28.tea, in the end they came up trumps over dinner. History starts with a
:07:29. > :07:37.lot of waiting around as I discovered on Friday. At least it's
:07:38. > :07:40.not raining. Waiting for news from the EU summit, Westminster had
:07:41. > :07:47.ground to a halt. Sniffing out any news from Brussels? European leaders
:07:48. > :07:51.were on their second day of wrangling. The French president was
:07:52. > :07:55.worried about the City of London getting a special deal. The Polish
:07:56. > :07:59.Prime Minister feared that the citizens of hers living in the UK
:08:00. > :08:02.would lose their benefits and the great pro Minister was concerned
:08:03. > :08:06.about migrants. David Cameron says that he was battling for a debt deal
:08:07. > :08:16.for Britain, which involved lots of talk, quite a few axons and not a
:08:17. > :08:21.lot of action. Suddenly, back at Westminster, a thing happen. One of
:08:22. > :08:30.the league campaigns, grassroots, out where it was rumoured it would
:08:31. > :08:37.be a surprise supporter. Who'd you think is a special guest? For me,
:08:38. > :08:44.probably Douglas Carswell? Sorry, it was actually George Galloway.
:08:45. > :08:52.Comrades and friends. When he turned up, a bunch of people there. We
:08:53. > :09:02.don't want anything to do with him. Do you often have that effect? It
:09:03. > :09:09.looks pretty busy to me. About 50 people got up and left. My unaided.
:09:10. > :09:15.There are people waiting for Nigel. You are clutching at straws there.
:09:16. > :09:22.Finally in Brussels a deal to keep Britain in the EU was done over
:09:23. > :09:26.dinner. The hacks were briefed by a clearly knackered Prime Minister.
:09:27. > :09:32.Good evening, and welcome. Within the last hour I have ago she hated a
:09:33. > :09:37.deal to give United Kingdom special status with inside the European
:09:38. > :09:45.Union. Angela Merkel was snapped going for some chips. Which singer
:09:46. > :09:53.Kurt Jolly good idea. Good night all. -- which seemed like a jolly
:09:54. > :09:58.good idea. More waiting at Downing Street, this time for the first
:09:59. > :10:02.Cabinet meeting on a weekend since the Falklands, and David Cameron's
:10:03. > :10:09.chance to brief his colleagues on the deal. This is the deal, the EU
:10:10. > :10:13.will exempt the UK from ever closer union. There will be safeguards for
:10:14. > :10:17.the City of London. When it comes to in work benefits, the UK will be
:10:18. > :10:26.able to apply the emergency brake which means the people migrating
:10:27. > :10:33.will get the same rate for a few years. Time for ministers to give
:10:34. > :10:44.their verdict. Home Secretary, are you Romanian? Chancellor, I'm
:10:45. > :10:49.guessing your and in, aren't you? Each gave their answer in a two-hour
:10:50. > :10:53.meeting in number ten, then the Prime Minister appeared to press a
:10:54. > :10:56.button marked referendum. The choices in your hands. But my
:10:57. > :11:04.recommendation is clear. Believe that Britain will be safer, stronger
:11:05. > :11:10.and better of in a reformed European Union. And apparently now totally
:11:11. > :11:16.fine for the members of the cabinets to disagree. What was it like when
:11:17. > :11:19.Michael Gove spoke? Was he sad? Of course, because he and the Prime
:11:20. > :11:26.Minister and the rest of us we we all know each other, the remarkable
:11:27. > :11:30.thing about one of these -- this Government is that we know each
:11:31. > :11:36.other, like each other and we are friends. We had each other's numbers
:11:37. > :11:45.and we text and talk to each other. But the six ministers for the
:11:46. > :11:50.outvote headed straight to the vote leave campaign headquarters. Free at
:11:51. > :11:57.last to point the exit. I will be voting to leave the EU, because I'm
:11:58. > :12:00.profoundly optimistic about the UK. I believe we can flourish outside
:12:01. > :12:06.the European Union, so I think the better option is to take back
:12:07. > :12:12.control, and restore the ability to make our own laws and controller
:12:13. > :12:15.Rome borders in this country. Big smiles! Now the referendum campaign
:12:16. > :12:24.will be brought to a street near you, like the Britain Stronger In
:12:25. > :12:28.Europe, there is one more thing we are waiting for. Which side will
:12:29. > :12:36.Boris Johnson join? He will reveal his intentions to night. Is he going
:12:37. > :12:44.to campaign to come out? It looks very much like it. People that I've
:12:45. > :12:49.spoken to, some pro-European MPs have now resigned themselves to
:12:50. > :12:53.Boris going for Leave. Apparently, it was all down to this great big
:12:54. > :13:00.incident he had with Michael Gove. There it was that Boris was given an
:13:01. > :13:05.argument he found very hard to refuse. And it appears they've done
:13:06. > :13:09.a deal to do this together. Is it more about leadership ambitions than
:13:10. > :13:13.history feelings towards the EU? I think everyone is going to presume
:13:14. > :13:21.that. Not least because Boris Johnson is known as an inner. He's
:13:22. > :13:25.spent time in Brussels, New York. He's always been one for reform but
:13:26. > :13:28.not for leaving. He's been telling people privately and quite openly
:13:29. > :13:35.that he is going to campaign for in, so he's clearly worked out that the
:13:36. > :13:43.electric that matters here for him, are the grassroots Tories and MPs
:13:44. > :13:47.who are sceptical. But does he look sincere in doing this? He's going to
:13:48. > :13:54.have to make a extremely good argument here tonight, as to why
:13:55. > :13:59.he's done this U-turn. Let's talk about some of the substance, Melanie
:14:00. > :14:04.Phillips, because there are people who say that actually, not many
:14:05. > :14:08.people in the voting public will not look at the fine detail, they will
:14:09. > :14:12.go on emotion. Do you think that's true, or do you think there are
:14:13. > :14:16.salient issues that could capture the imagination? The two aren't
:14:17. > :14:22.necessarily in contradiction with each other. They are both part of
:14:23. > :14:28.it. There will play a great deal, will have a lot to do campaign. We
:14:29. > :14:32.must cling on to the fear of something worse, which the promised
:14:33. > :14:37.will continue to play on. I was struck by this morning's interview
:14:38. > :14:41.with the Prime Minister, where he addressed the most important issue,
:14:42. > :14:45.which is sovereignty and he redefined it. He was so keen to slip
:14:46. > :14:49.away from it because it's a dangerous for him. The ultimate is
:14:50. > :14:58.that Britain will still have no control over its own laws. It was
:14:59. > :15:06.still be dictated significantly... He says it will be a mechanism. He's
:15:07. > :15:12.clinging to his apparent concession that he's run out of them not to
:15:13. > :15:17.have ever closer union. That's a a meaning -- meaningless thing. We in
:15:18. > :15:22.Britain will be still bound by Europe. He's floated some sort of
:15:23. > :15:32.constitutional settlement. This is a nonsense because there is nothing
:15:33. > :15:37.that can override that superiority. Opponents of the EU appeared vexed
:15:38. > :15:41.that we have no ability to make our own laws, but aren't bothered about
:15:42. > :15:47.the fact that we can decide whether we can go to war not. There could be
:15:48. > :15:53.a situation with Turkey and Russia could find themselves at war. What
:15:54. > :15:59.happens then? We are then bounce to go to war on Turkey's behalf because
:16:00. > :16:03.Turkey is a member of Nato. And posers of the European Union don't
:16:04. > :16:07.seem bothered by that and that will be an argument that the prime in to
:16:08. > :16:10.use. Will security be the overriding thing that convinces people? The
:16:11. > :16:14.winners of this campaign will be the thing that convinces people? The
:16:15. > :16:17.safest option, and the losers will be the riskiest option. That's why
:16:18. > :16:24.every other word the Prime Minister says is about risk. He is saying,
:16:25. > :16:30.what are you out as having as a vision for outside the European
:16:31. > :16:35.Union. As we've been hearing, as soon as David Cameron announced the
:16:36. > :16:39.referendum, campaign that attack members of the Cabinet were given
:16:40. > :16:45.free rein. So who will be campaigning to see in and he will be
:16:46. > :16:50.campaigning to leave? So, the deal has been done and it time for
:16:51. > :16:54.ministers to pick a side. No surprise that George Osborne, David
:16:55. > :16:59.Cameron and Philip Hammond were how campaigning to stay in. They will be
:17:00. > :17:12.pleased that potential outers, Liz truss, Savage added, and Theresa May
:17:13. > :17:15.are remaining in the remaining team. These politicians will be
:17:16. > :17:20.campaigning to leave and they will be cheering that Michael Gove, after
:17:21. > :17:24.much soul-searching, has plucked for the leave camp. However, there is
:17:25. > :17:28.one big-name waiting on the sidelines. Boris Johnson. His
:17:29. > :17:34.support could sway a lot of voters. Surely it can't be long to wait now.
:17:35. > :17:38.And the Leader of the House of Commons, Chris Grayling, is with us
:17:39. > :17:44.now. Why do you think the deal that the Prime Minister secured was
:17:45. > :17:47.enough? He's made some progress in Brussels and we give him credit for
:17:48. > :17:51.that, but does this represent a transformation that would see to me,
:17:52. > :17:57.we should stay within the European Union? No, it doesn't. I think it
:17:58. > :18:04.holds us back. I think these we should be taking for our country.
:18:05. > :18:09.But the ability to decide how many people come to live and work here.
:18:10. > :18:15.Forging free-trade deals round the world. We are spending ?350 million
:18:16. > :18:20.a week on subscriptions to the EU that should and could be spent on
:18:21. > :18:26.the National Health Service. That doesn't take into account the rebate
:18:27. > :18:35.that the UK get. So, in your mind, the Prime Minister has failed in his
:18:36. > :18:40.attempt to secure fundamental. What he's brought back is a deal for a
:18:41. > :18:45.sustained European Union. I don't agree. I think we should leave. That
:18:46. > :18:48.will be the debate in the next few months. What could he have done to
:18:49. > :18:53.secure your support? There are key questions about our membership in
:18:54. > :19:00.the EU, and we talked a moment ago about risk. The ability to control
:19:01. > :19:03.our borders, set limits on those who work here. All our national
:19:04. > :19:08.statisticians are saying that our population is going to rise
:19:09. > :19:12.significantly. I don't think we can cope without estimation. I don't
:19:13. > :19:18.think we have the houses, hospitals, school places. Your Government
:19:19. > :19:21.hasn't done anything about migration figures, has it? One of the reasons
:19:22. > :19:28.we can't do anything about it is because of the free movement rules
:19:29. > :19:34.in the European Union. What would be acceptable for a migration level for
:19:35. > :19:40.you? Its 330,000 now. If the UK pulled out of the EU, you would get
:19:41. > :19:45.levels of tens of thousands? We would have the ability to set
:19:46. > :19:50.limits. We could look at the migration pressures that we face and
:19:51. > :19:53.where we have skills needs. We can take decisions in the interest of
:19:54. > :19:58.Britain at the moment we cannot do that. So, there isn't anything that
:19:59. > :20:05.David Cameron could have secured because you boys wanted to come out
:20:06. > :20:11.of the EU. I've sat through European meetings for five years. I do not
:20:12. > :20:15.believe we are probably able to look after our national interests, our
:20:16. > :20:18.businesses, our citizens. I think too many decisions have been passed
:20:19. > :20:25.to Brussels. Michael Gove brightly yesterday talked about the number of
:20:26. > :20:29.changes that come across our desks as ministers that we can't do
:20:30. > :20:36.anything about it. Give me an example of something you cant
:20:37. > :20:38.because of the EU? In the arena of health and safety, there were
:20:39. > :20:43.changes that were brought in that were going to cost British
:20:44. > :20:46.businesses money. Which one did you not what to bring in? You always
:20:47. > :20:52.talk about regulations and so do others and euro-sceptic ministers,
:20:53. > :20:56.but which specific bills we are not able to pass, which laws were forced
:20:57. > :21:08.on you by the EU? I would not have imposed massive change -- it took
:21:09. > :21:13.years to reduce a package that could been damaging. You want to strip
:21:14. > :21:18.away health and said -- safety regulations? The youth that example
:21:19. > :21:27.before. You'd like to get rid of that. I want us as a nation to
:21:28. > :21:31.decide what health and safety rules we want in the UK, not to happen
:21:32. > :21:38.imposed on us. I want less regulation. I want the right
:21:39. > :21:42.regulation. I don't want huge extra burdens put on business. What was
:21:43. > :21:47.the atmosphere like in the Cabinet yesterday? Cordial. It was a
:21:48. > :21:50.friendly meeting. The Prime Minister immediately accepted that they were
:21:51. > :21:54.different views around the table, but we all committed to working in
:21:55. > :21:58.the next few months for the cause that we believe in, on one side or
:21:59. > :22:03.the other in a constructive and friendly way. It would be dominated
:22:04. > :22:08.by this issue, won't it? We don't have two attack each other
:22:09. > :22:12.personally. It's already happening, though. You've already said that the
:22:13. > :22:17.Prime Minister is scare mongering and you said it will be project
:22:18. > :22:22.fear. That's not friendly and cordial. I haven't actually said
:22:23. > :22:27.that. You said it's too risky to leave. I criticised easyJet who have
:22:28. > :22:32.said somehow that cheap airfares could disappear from Europe. That's
:22:33. > :22:36.nonsense. There are regional airports in constant Europe that
:22:37. > :22:40.would go bust if it wasn't for low-cost aviation for the United
:22:41. > :22:45.Kingdom. It's simply not true. You can guarantee that, can you, to the
:22:46. > :22:50.British people? You can guarantee these things for the British people
:22:51. > :22:54.the day after we vote to be the EU? Why would people in continental
:22:55. > :23:00.Europe cost themselves money? You can't guarantee, can you Rhys ask
:23:01. > :23:03.yourself a question, on the day after Britain leads the European
:23:04. > :23:06.Union, the Germans will say we aren't going to sell Brent W is to
:23:07. > :23:15.the British? There will be a trade deal, you are absolutely right. The
:23:16. > :23:23.issue is, will it be the same deal? Will there be full access for the UK
:23:24. > :23:27.to goods and services? Are you saying that they will be this utopia
:23:28. > :23:31.where the same deal will be struck. We wait have to be part of freedom
:23:32. > :23:35.of movement use and we won't have to pay a penny towards the EU? Is that
:23:36. > :23:42.what you're saying the British people. We are... Can you guarantee
:23:43. > :23:46.that we will have full access to trade and services in the way that
:23:47. > :23:52.exists now, without freedom of movement and without paying into the
:23:53. > :23:56.EU? Why would they take a risk with jobs in Germany and France, and
:23:57. > :24:02.other European countries by not agreeing a proper, modern free-trade
:24:03. > :24:05.agreement for goods and services. They ran a massive trade surplus
:24:06. > :24:12.with us. They sell more to ask them we sell to them. They lose out
:24:13. > :24:15.financially those trading agreements not continue. I'm not saying they
:24:16. > :24:19.will continue forth upon talking about the terms. Everyone says we
:24:20. > :24:25.don't know what outward look like, what I'm tried to get from you is
:24:26. > :24:29.how long would it take? Two years? Seven years like Canada? And would
:24:30. > :24:35.be on the same terms we have now? Why would it not be on a free trade
:24:36. > :24:39.basis because it costs them money. It doesn't cost us financially free
:24:40. > :24:46.don't have a free-trade agreement, is Germany, France and other
:24:47. > :24:49.European crunchies. -- European countries. How long do you think
:24:50. > :24:56.that will take? It will take a relatively short period of time. How
:24:57. > :25:00.long? If it Canada seven-year 's? How long will it take the UK? There
:25:01. > :25:05.is a process of negotiation set out in the treaty. I would not expect
:25:06. > :25:10.those countries to take a risk because at the end of two years they
:25:11. > :25:14.would lose out financially. Well, even over the negotiations, they
:25:15. > :25:19.have said, particularly Francois Hollande, that actually he's not
:25:20. > :25:22.going to give special treatment to Great Britain. Why would these
:25:23. > :25:27.countries, who's been polled through the ringer over negotiations then
:25:28. > :25:35.suddenly immediately, on your timescale want to set up favourable
:25:36. > :25:40.terms of trade with the EU? Is Francois Hollande going to say to
:25:41. > :25:44.farmers, who are a fairly lively bunch, you don't have too sell your
:25:45. > :25:48.wine, cheese or agricultural products to Britain. Why would he
:25:49. > :25:52.take that political breeze? That we don't know the terms. You admit
:25:53. > :25:56.that. We know what you would like and you can't believe it would be
:25:57. > :26:00.another option, but it is a risk, isn't it? That's what the Prime
:26:01. > :26:04.Minister is saying and he is right. It's a risk for the French not have
:26:05. > :26:08.a free-trade agreement with us, because otherwise their businesses
:26:09. > :26:13.lose out. With the Business Secretary doesn't agree with you and
:26:14. > :26:19.he says you are wrong. He says it's too risky for business. I think the
:26:20. > :26:24.risk is on the other side. Is he wrong to say the risk is too great?
:26:25. > :26:35.We run huge trade deficit with continental Europe. The Business
:26:36. > :26:39.Secretary is contradicting you. What do you know that he doesn't? We have
:26:40. > :26:43.different views around the Cabinet table, and we set those out
:26:44. > :26:49.yesterday. Some of us were in and some, out. We will have the ultimate
:26:50. > :26:53.over the next few months that in a constructive way. He's a good
:26:54. > :26:57.Business Secretary and he's the be unhappy about the European Union.
:26:58. > :27:01.But he is campaigning to remain. He's been loyal to the Prime
:27:02. > :27:05.Minister. We've taken different views in this. We're both loyal to
:27:06. > :27:12.the Prime Minister. Well you're not on this issue, right you? Government
:27:13. > :27:16.ministers are free to take their own decision on this argument. It's a
:27:17. > :27:23.brave, bold decision and I agree with it. You worried about your job
:27:24. > :27:28.if you lose in a referendum? Why, it could be a situation where David
:27:29. > :27:34.Cameron will say to you in your colleagues who are campaigning out,
:27:35. > :27:39.that South. Game over. He can decide the construct of his Government in
:27:40. > :27:43.his own way in the future. This is a matter of principle for me. It's not
:27:44. > :27:47.about my career, my job. So, you're prepared to lose your job? And doing
:27:48. > :27:51.what I believe is the right thing for the country. It's neither here
:27:52. > :27:57.nor there in job terms, I'm doing it for the country. I think it's the
:27:58. > :28:02.low risk option for my country. Is it right that a majority Government,
:28:03. > :28:09.for the first time in years, fighting, spit and divided over this
:28:10. > :28:12.issue? People expect us as politicians to be grown-up. They
:28:13. > :28:17.don't expect us to agree all the time. We are not automatons. We are
:28:18. > :28:21.going to have a constructive debate because we disagree but we are going
:28:22. > :28:24.to stay friends, respectful of the Prime Minister and work together
:28:25. > :28:31.that we carry on governing the country well. If you win is the
:28:32. > :28:38.Prime Minister had to go? So, you trust him, totally to renegotiate
:28:39. > :28:45.bilateral trade agreements as the prime in this who campaigned to stay
:28:46. > :28:49.in the EU. I campaigned for him as the row minister who gave the
:28:50. > :28:55.country a bold choice. He will lead us in Government if we stay
:28:56. > :28:57.organised. He would really be favoured person to lead those
:28:58. > :29:03.negotiations. You'd still trust after this? I'd still trust. In
:29:04. > :29:07.terms of your colleagues, do you think it would be possible for him
:29:08. > :29:12.to stay? Absolutely. What we don't need at the end of this, whether we
:29:13. > :29:16.vote to leave or stay is a elliptical bloodbath. We've got a
:29:17. > :29:22.good team. It needs to carry on and do what the country needs is today.
:29:23. > :29:26.How big boost would Boris beat your campaign? He would be a great boost
:29:27. > :29:38.I don't know what his intentions but I hope will. If you lose will that
:29:39. > :29:44.be a? If the people vote then -- in then we'll probably won't return to
:29:45. > :29:50.it. Will that be for a generation? If we stay there we stay, if we
:29:51. > :29:55.leave them we leave. Now, what of labour? Jeremy Corbyn has been
:29:56. > :30:01.sceptical of the EU in the past. He voted to leave the European economic
:30:02. > :30:07.meet in 1975. Times have changed, though. The Labour leader says the
:30:08. > :30:12.EU brings investment, and protection. In a moment, we'll be
:30:13. > :30:17.talking to the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, that let's
:30:18. > :30:25.hear what Jeremy Corbyn had to say speaking in Wales yesterday. We were
:30:26. > :30:30.voted to stay in the EU because it brings protection for British
:30:31. > :30:35.workers and consumer -- consumers. We believe it's a vital framework
:30:36. > :30:39.for Corporation in the 21st-century, and the vote to remain using the
:30:40. > :30:45.best interests of our people. But, we want progressive change in
:30:46. > :30:50.Europe, to make the EU works for working people, that includes
:30:51. > :30:55.workers rights, putting jobs and sustainable growth at the heart of
:30:56. > :31:01.economic policy, greater accountability of institutions, and
:31:02. > :31:06.a halt, and absolute halt to privatise public services by some
:31:07. > :31:12.element in the European Union. And Hilary Benn joins me now. Dit David
:31:13. > :31:17.Cameron do a good deal? Well, he went through this whole process
:31:18. > :31:20.because of splits within the Conservative Party. It hasn't
:31:21. > :31:26.changed our view. We are in favour of remaining. He announced there was
:31:27. > :31:30.don't be a referendum, renegotiation and we are still in favour. It
:31:31. > :31:37.hasn't made a difference in that respect. But some of the changes,
:31:38. > :31:47.the red card, that something that is good for Britain. A red card on laws
:31:48. > :31:52.we don't like? I think that it's a good thing. The changes on child
:31:53. > :31:55.benefit, we believe in fair contribution, but, this referendum
:31:56. > :32:00.is not in the end going to be about David Cameron's deal, is going to be
:32:01. > :32:07.about whether we are better off In or Out. Chris Grayling wasn't able
:32:08. > :32:11.to answer your perfect their question about what trade
:32:12. > :32:14.relationships will replace the free access to the largest single market
:32:15. > :32:18.in the world because we are in the EU. Let's go back to the deal. You
:32:19. > :32:24.see why make a difference, but you do concede that introducing a red
:32:25. > :32:29.card, some sort of challenge to EU laws that UK doesn't lie, and
:32:30. > :32:34.restriction on child benefits, even though exact that they went exactly
:32:35. > :32:38.what the Prime Minister promised? Those changes that we ourselves
:32:39. > :32:43.called for, but when it comes to this decision, it's about much, much
:32:44. > :32:46.than that. It hasn't changed Labour's view about the case for
:32:47. > :32:51.Britain remaining in the European Union, because it's good for jobs,
:32:52. > :32:58.investment and growth. Let's take an example. We export cars to Europe
:32:59. > :33:01.with no tariff. When the Japanese and Americans export then they had
:33:02. > :33:06.to pay a 10 cents tariff. That's what the single market means. That's
:33:07. > :33:10.why there's a lot of investment in Britain, investment in the car
:33:11. > :33:18.industry which is now growing and expanding. People thought it was on
:33:19. > :33:27.the way out. It isn't. Why wouldn't we -- we can't guarantee that. No
:33:28. > :33:32.one voting out can guarantee access. There could be high skill jobs that
:33:33. > :33:37.depend on that. They wouldn't go, would they? That is project fear, as
:33:38. > :33:43.Nick Clegg used to say that 3 million jobs would disappear. That's
:33:44. > :33:48.not based in fact, is it? I'm not saying that. Let's look at the
:33:49. > :33:52.alternative, we've got no way. In order to get access to the single
:33:53. > :33:55.market, Norway has to pay a contribution which is the same per
:33:56. > :34:00.capita as ours. They have to accept all the rules. But that's because
:34:01. > :34:07.the Norwegian establishment wanted that. But they don't have any say
:34:08. > :34:12.over the rules in Europe. Now, how is that an advantage, an improvement
:34:13. > :34:15.on what we've got now? It isn't. It's a worse deal. Even the
:34:16. > :34:19.Norwegians don't recommend that we go down that route. That's why the
:34:20. > :34:23.league campaign is, as we've just seen with Chris Grayling's inability
:34:24. > :34:26.to answer your question is that they cannot tell us what our would look
:34:27. > :34:31.like, so why we take the risk? Are you saying that Britain just can't
:34:32. > :34:36.survive outside E U. You are implying that this country can do
:34:37. > :34:41.well on its own. Because survive, that you are scaremongering in that
:34:42. > :34:50.sense. That's what brexit-mac ministers are saying. Four. Are you
:34:51. > :34:55.saying that this country isn't capable of being able to run its own
:34:56. > :35:00.affairs. I'm making this argument, we'll ready have a lot of great
:35:01. > :35:05.trade deals with other countries in the world precisely because we are
:35:06. > :35:08.part of the EU, which gives us tariff free access. We are part of
:35:09. > :35:13.the largest single market in the world. Why would we trade what we've
:35:14. > :35:18.got at the moment, which is good deals, for the price that -- of
:35:19. > :35:21.deals that are just as good when guys that have campaigned to leave
:35:22. > :35:26.can't tell us what it will look like. Are you happy with levels of
:35:27. > :35:31.net migration? What about our borders? The issue of free movement
:35:32. > :35:36.in the European Union is that it's part of the rules. So there would be
:35:37. > :35:40.limitless migration in that sense, over the next 5-10 years, bearing in
:35:41. > :35:44.mind with what's happening in the moment, it will be impossible to
:35:45. > :35:49.bring those levels down. What's happening in the world as a separate
:35:50. > :35:53.argument if you are talking outside of the European Union. Once those
:35:54. > :35:57.people within the EU get citizenship then they will be ever to come over
:35:58. > :36:00.to Britain, rightly or wrongly. But it is something people are concerned
:36:01. > :36:06.about. Being part of the EU does mean that being part of the EU means
:36:07. > :36:11.that we cannot control our borders. If we look at the number of people
:36:12. > :36:14.Germany are taken in because of the crisis in Syria. It will be many
:36:15. > :36:20.years before they can acquire citizenship. I do think they would
:36:21. > :36:24.choose to move from Germany to the United Kingdom in large numbers.
:36:25. > :36:29.Look at the economic opportunities and standards in Germany. There are
:36:30. > :36:34.many British people who living and working in other European countries,
:36:35. > :36:38.and EU migrants who have come to Britain who are working as nurses,
:36:39. > :36:43.lecturers and in manufacturing, and they are paying into the British
:36:44. > :36:47.economy. They are net contributors, as you know because they work and
:36:48. > :36:52.pay tax. That gives us more revenue of the country. Did you agree with
:36:53. > :36:57.Jeremy Corbyn attacking the deal, particularly because of the brake on
:36:58. > :37:01.benefits to EU migrants? Our view on that is that we believe in fair
:37:02. > :37:06.contribution. Jeremy Corbyn said the deal is tinkering around the edges,
:37:07. > :37:10.particularly when the focus is on a brake on benefits for EU migrants.
:37:11. > :37:15.He doesn't like it. Do you? We agreed that there aren't abuse and
:37:16. > :37:21.is the right price. Are you sure he signed up to that? We are agreed
:37:22. > :37:25.that their contribution is the right approach he was making a different
:37:26. > :37:28.argument. His argument was that it is irrelevant to the view that
:37:29. > :37:34.Labour is taking about the benefits and being in the European Union. It
:37:35. > :37:44.doesn't change our position in that sense. Jeremy's is campaigning to
:37:45. > :37:51.stay in as are the whole Labour Party. So will you share a platform
:37:52. > :37:55.with David Cameron. I won't. The Prime Minister can make his case to
:37:56. > :38:02.his party which is bitterly divided, as we've seen, over the last few
:38:03. > :38:08.months. You were always going to stay within the EU, thereby backing
:38:09. > :38:13.the status quo. Why wouldn't you share a platform with the Prime
:38:14. > :38:18.Minister. Surely it's too big an issue to be partisan? We make our
:38:19. > :38:24.own arguments in a railway to try and win the case. The Prime Minister
:38:25. > :38:27.can do the same in his way in his party, with the people he's seeking
:38:28. > :38:34.to persuade. In the end, the decision that the British people
:38:35. > :38:39.make is we safer? This is important, because in the last decade or so,
:38:40. > :38:43.5000 people who were suspected of crimes had been removed from the
:38:44. > :38:53.country to face justice elsewhere. One of the bombers on the 21st of
:38:54. > :38:58.July fled to Italy, and he was returned to Britain to face justice
:38:59. > :39:01.and he was convicted. Why? Because of the European arrest warrant.
:39:02. > :39:03.These are practical considerations that show we are safer being in the
:39:04. > :39:08.EU rather than leaving. Good morning and welcome
:39:09. > :39:10.to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme:
:39:11. > :39:12.We know the date. And on the streets of Scotland,
:39:13. > :39:16.campaign groups are quick to get It was the worst kept secret
:39:17. > :39:21.in British politics, but now the details
:39:22. > :39:23.have been confirmed. The Prime Minister came
:39:24. > :39:26.home with a deal which, he says, is good enough
:39:27. > :39:29.to keep the UK in the EU. Though his political opponents have
:39:30. > :39:31.already dismissed it as pathetic. So the starting gun has been fired
:39:32. > :39:36.for that In Out Euro referendum, which will take place
:39:37. > :39:54.on Thursday the 23 June. Get your Jhumpa Lahiri gladrags on!
:39:55. > :39:59.The Eurovision Song contest announced a change to the voting
:40:00. > :40:03.system since its bigger shake-up since 1975 and now David Cameron
:40:04. > :40:07.says he has done a deal which means that Britain should stay in the E U.
:40:08. > :40:12.Our plan for Europe gives us the best of both worlds. It underlines
:40:13. > :40:18.our special status, through which families across Britain get all the
:40:19. > :40:24.benefits of being in the EU, including more jobs, lower prices
:40:25. > :40:27.and greater security. But our special status also means we're out
:40:28. > :40:36.of those parts of Europe that do not work for asked. It's already clear
:40:37. > :40:43.that not everyone is convinced. Bring back full control of our own
:40:44. > :40:47.affairs to the UK, so we asked three of the European court of justice,
:40:48. > :40:52.the unelected bureaucracy in Brussels, and we are free to set up
:40:53. > :40:56.our own trade agreements with other countries around the world. And we
:40:57. > :41:08.are free to cooperate with our nearest neighbours, on our turns.
:41:09. > :41:13.But the main political parties in Scotland will all be campaigning to
:41:14. > :41:18.stay in the EU. Let's hear the case, and the SNP will be making the case
:41:19. > :41:22.for Scotland to stay in the EU, because it's good for jobs,
:41:23. > :41:30.protections, social employment, and it's good to enable independent
:41:31. > :41:32.countries come together to have sovereignty, and deal with things
:41:33. > :41:42.like climate change and the refugee crisis. Scots farmers believe on
:41:43. > :41:46.balance we are better off. We want to stay because Westminster have
:41:47. > :41:53.said nothing. There's been nothing said about agriculture in Europe.
:41:54. > :41:57.40% of the European budget directed at agriculture means it's important
:41:58. > :42:09.it's got right. If there's an eternity of weed consider, but for
:42:10. > :42:18.the moment we want to stay in. Jerry the independence referendum, the EU
:42:19. > :42:21.told us to get stuffed -- during. I don't see why should go to an
:42:22. > :42:30.organisation that told us to get stuffed. I think they will tell us
:42:31. > :42:34.to get stuffed in the second independence referendum. I've got
:42:35. > :42:38.more fundamental objections than that it's a profoundly undemocratic
:42:39. > :42:43.organisation. He says that Brexit could mean a bright future for
:42:44. > :42:47.Scotland, independent and a member of the free trade area. I wish that
:42:48. > :42:53.some people in the SNP leadership would go and have a look at the
:42:54. > :42:59.Treaty. If the UK emerges with a very good trade agreement, then it's
:43:00. > :43:03.much easier for Scotland to peel off as an independent member and still
:43:04. > :43:08.be associated with that trade agreement with the rest of the EU,
:43:09. > :43:12.giving us the access that we want to that 500 million market, but at the
:43:13. > :43:17.same time, allowing us to be much more sovereign than we would be if
:43:18. > :43:22.we were a small member states in the EU, ruled by a Brussels. But a
:43:23. > :43:28.different vision which is simpler and bureaucratic. I'd like to see
:43:29. > :43:32.reforms along the lines of more simplification, and are taking away
:43:33. > :43:40.of the regulations that are causing problems within our industry. It's
:43:41. > :43:44.not really delivering an awful lot. It's a deep joy to be here and I'm
:43:45. > :43:49.happy to announce the results of the United Kingdom. So, now will have to
:43:50. > :44:01.see if David Cameron's deal will get UK votes or Null point.
:44:02. > :44:05.I'm joined by Kiran Stacey from the Financial Times.
:44:06. > :44:12.There's a lot of talk about Boris Johnson. Do you think it makes a
:44:13. > :44:16.difference what way he jumps? I think it makes more difference than
:44:17. > :44:21.the way Michael Gove jump. He cuts through on a level which many
:44:22. > :44:27.politicians aren't able to, even David Cameron. He has a status in
:44:28. > :44:30.the public mind which transcend politics and if he goes out and
:44:31. > :44:35.makes a populist case for the EU, that will be herds in a way that
:44:36. > :44:40.other members of the Cabinet which voters might not have heard of, are
:44:41. > :44:45.able to make that point. If you have a look at all the choreography
:44:46. > :44:53.behind Boris's move, is difficult to see that he would be backing the UK
:44:54. > :45:00.saying in the EU after all. Do you think he'd be an automatic leader of
:45:01. > :45:07.the league campaign, because one of the dangers they have, Cabinet
:45:08. > :45:11.ministers about, perhaps interesting cranks and oddballs, that
:45:12. > :45:17.nevertheless cranks and oddballs. The question is which group is going
:45:18. > :45:22.to lead. Vote lead? Leaves EU? There a number of factions battling the
:45:23. > :45:27.supremacy. There is a faction around Nigel Farage who is saying that
:45:28. > :45:33.there should be a campaign to Leeds based on the core vote. And there's
:45:34. > :45:36.more cross-party consensus which involves people from Labour, the
:45:37. > :45:42.Conservatives, and they save they need to lead a more moderate, broad
:45:43. > :45:45.wide ranging campaign. I think RS would fit better into that latter
:45:46. > :45:49.group and perhaps ease the figure to bring the two camps together, but at
:45:50. > :45:53.the moment, they are so divided that they will keep fighting for the next
:45:54. > :45:58.few months until the electoral commission decides who is in charge.
:45:59. > :46:04.On the other side of the argument, the stay in people, they will be led
:46:05. > :46:09.by David Cameron, Nicola Sturgeon has been clear the SNP will be
:46:10. > :46:13.campaigning BS, so it's all going well, but could that be the problem?
:46:14. > :46:17.One of the phenomena we are seeing in Europe, at the moment, is that
:46:18. > :46:23.people just want to give a bloody nose to the establishment, and it
:46:24. > :46:26.anything looks like the political establishment in Britain gang up on
:46:27. > :46:34.one side of the argument, this is it. I think that's slightly and
:46:35. > :46:41.overdone argument. If you look at the 2015 results for the election,
:46:42. > :46:45.it was a surprise result. I think voters want to give a bloody nice
:46:46. > :46:50.politicians when they think the stakes are a little bit lower. So,
:46:51. > :46:55.at an EU election, they might go vote en masse for a party like Ukip,
:46:56. > :47:00.but when I think it comes to the really big stuff, they are much more
:47:01. > :47:05.cautious. Especially on an issue where lots of people haven't been
:47:06. > :47:09.engaged in the argument, it don't necessarily care about a comic
:47:10. > :47:14.doesn't affect their daily lives. I think that most people will be risk
:47:15. > :47:16.averse and think they are better of staying where they are because they
:47:17. > :47:23.know what happened in the current setup stop do you think the Yes
:47:24. > :47:37.Campaign has to get a certain tone to it. Nicola Sturgeon make the
:47:38. > :47:42.point that initially -- all the momentum went towards them during
:47:43. > :47:47.the campaign and they were seen as more positive, and that the stay in
:47:48. > :47:54.campaign in Europe doesn't have that margin to lose? I think it does have
:47:55. > :47:57.a bit of margin to lose. I think a negative campaign, which is what
:47:58. > :48:04.Nicola Sturgeon is warning against, could be effective by saying that
:48:05. > :48:06.voting for things with huge risks, it means there are like to vote for
:48:07. > :48:21.it. That very briefly, do you expect
:48:22. > :48:28.business to come out, like big multinational companies, much sooner
:48:29. > :48:34.than in the Scottish Referendum and say, look, hang on, folks. Your jobs
:48:35. > :48:39.will go for we leave the EU. And I could see the trade union saying, do
:48:40. > :48:45.you know what's? They are right. I think you'd start to see that very
:48:46. > :48:49.same. The CBI, who have always been EU, have come out. And I think other
:48:50. > :48:53.organisations will join them. They will save jobs are on the line. They
:48:54. > :48:55.will couch it carefully but the message will be clear.
:48:56. > :48:58.Joining me now is the MP Stephen Gethins, who is the SNP's
:48:59. > :49:03.And John Mills, who is the founder of consumer product empire JML
:49:04. > :49:21.John Mills, before we talk about the actual issues, just on the Labour
:49:22. > :49:25.Lead campaign, does it concern you that the doesn't appear to be any
:49:26. > :49:29.major figures in the Labour Party involved in it? I think you've got
:49:30. > :49:33.to wait and see what happens over the next day or two. I think you'll
:49:34. > :49:39.find more Labour figures will declare in favour Britain to leave
:49:40. > :49:43.the EU, and that will be a very welcome development. But the point
:49:44. > :49:48.is, with the Conservatives talking about Boris Johnson, I'm not sure
:49:49. > :49:51.there's anyone in the Labour Party with that kind of clout and
:49:52. > :49:55.influence you could come and join your campaign. I think we've got
:49:56. > :50:00.major figures who are well-known to the that you will see. Boris Johnson
:50:01. > :50:08.is in a class of his own, I'll admit. If he comes to the league
:50:09. > :50:13.campaign then it will be a big plus. He does reach out to people in a way
:50:14. > :50:21.that other politicians to, I think it will be a real acid becomes
:50:22. > :50:32.on-board. -- a big asset if he comes on board.
:50:33. > :50:41.What is Labour lead's attitudes or are you happy to join up with anyone
:50:42. > :50:46.who is interested in leaving. We don't take the view that we only
:50:47. > :50:50.want to campaign on our own. We are happy to campaign with everyone who
:50:51. > :50:57.shares our views about coming out of the EU, and we think that unity
:50:58. > :51:02.across the board there is a big plus. Stephen, what about the SNP on
:51:03. > :51:05.that front? Are you going to have your own SNP campaign? Nicola
:51:06. > :51:10.Sturgeon was asked about this and rather neatly avoided it by saying
:51:11. > :51:15.that David Cameron won't necessarily want to share a platform with her.
:51:16. > :51:20.Should he want to, what would your attitude to that the? I think the
:51:21. > :51:24.SNP will run its own campaign. I want to see a yes vote in Scotland,
:51:25. > :51:32.and I don't know how much David Cameron can Andrew do -- contribute
:51:33. > :51:38.to that. Boris Johnson might cut through, but I do did make a lot of
:51:39. > :51:46.difference in Scotland. But Bruce Davidson could help you? Yet. They
:51:47. > :51:50.are still bumping along, they've just got the worst result since
:51:51. > :51:54.1865, so we just want to focus on having our own column a positive
:51:55. > :52:00.campaign, and talk about the benefits we get from sharing common
:52:01. > :52:05.rules on issues, and helping us to trade with our neighbours, and
:52:06. > :52:10.educational benefits, workers rights. Brussels has made a lot more
:52:11. > :52:16.progress than London did on workers' writes and these are the issues we
:52:17. > :52:25.want to campaign on. You just heard is John Mills outlining a social
:52:26. > :52:31.democratic case. You want the case for leaving, what is it? I think
:52:32. > :52:37.that there are a number of things in the number of people in this country
:52:38. > :52:44.who are worried about the cost, migration. They are worried about
:52:45. > :52:48.some of the effects that the budget is spent, particularly on
:52:49. > :52:53.agriculture, and with high food prices, there. But they are worried
:52:54. > :52:59.about Chrissy, the European Union having to move towards migration and
:53:00. > :53:02.the euro zone, which is not where people want to be. So, I think
:53:03. > :53:08.there's a very strong social democratic case to say we are better
:53:09. > :53:13.to come out and negotiate a better deal than we got at the moment. But
:53:14. > :53:18.watch would you reply to Stephen's points at about workers right. He
:53:19. > :53:23.argues that they've been more protected by the European Union
:53:24. > :53:27.British governments? I think there's some truth in that that the European
:53:28. > :53:33.Union led the way, but the idea that Britain came out -- that if Britain
:53:34. > :53:41.came out of the EU, then all these rights will be swept away. There are
:53:42. > :53:44.some issues around the edges about a 48-hour week, but generally
:53:45. > :53:48.speaking, there's complete unity across-the-board now. That workers
:53:49. > :53:55.rights on paternity need to stay in place and I'm sure they will do.
:53:56. > :53:59.Stephen, what about that? Not least because you disagree with the new
:54:00. > :54:03.trade union legislation, but George Osborne and David Cameron have made
:54:04. > :54:10.a great play that they want to be on the side of working people. Well,
:54:11. > :54:15.they might make a great play a bit, but I'm not sure that that stands up
:54:16. > :54:23.to the facts. If we withdraw from the EU, these powers go to London.
:54:24. > :54:29.Now, we've had nothing about powers returning to Scotland or Wales, or
:54:30. > :54:33.island. So, leaving ourselves at the mercy of London, is not something I
:54:34. > :54:36.feel entirely comfortable with. In this debate, there's a good
:54:37. > :54:40.opportunity to talk about the benefits we get to the European
:54:41. > :54:45.Union. We are quick to criticise, even when the UK signs up to these
:54:46. > :54:48.measures, but the EU doesn't always get the benefit of some of the good
:54:49. > :54:52.that it's done over the years, and I think there's an opportunity to do
:54:53. > :54:59.that over the coming months. What your opponents will argue is, let's
:55:00. > :55:03.take this question of health and safety, social legislation that
:55:04. > :55:09.affects workers' hours, at the bottom line here is that you should
:55:10. > :55:13.be up to Britain to democratically elect governments who in a
:55:14. > :55:20.democratic manner, decided what those rights should be. But what --
:55:21. > :55:23.you might like -- you might not like the results, but this is the
:55:24. > :55:28.alternative to Brussels imposing democratic governments in Britain
:55:29. > :55:35.things which they don't necessarily agree with. First of all, with the
:55:36. > :55:41.UK Government disagreeing on what's is going on in Brussels, the UK
:55:42. > :55:46.Government hasn't yet voted against a proposal that had to be adopted,
:55:47. > :55:50.finally. In terms of issues like health and safety, the UK signs up
:55:51. > :55:53.to this because we have a common set of rules that are greed throughout
:55:54. > :55:57.Europe, so it's a level playing field, which makes it a lot easier
:55:58. > :56:01.for businesses and other organisations to go out and work
:56:02. > :56:08.together. So, there are benefits to that. John Mills, what's your
:56:09. > :56:10.response -- response going to be about sovereignty, being made
:56:11. > :56:17.increasingly by supporters of staying in. They are saying that we
:56:18. > :56:22.are members of Nato, that should Turkey end up in a war with Russia,
:56:23. > :56:26.which is not inconceivable over the next few weeks, we would be bound by
:56:27. > :56:32.the rules of Nato to join in on Turkey's side. That's a much greater
:56:33. > :56:39.succession of sovereignty than one could almost imagine happening in
:56:40. > :56:43.the EU. There's a difference between our role in Nato 's and other
:56:44. > :56:50.organisations which are essentially intergovernmental. In the EU, it's
:56:51. > :56:55.different. The EU law is superior to British law, and I think that's very
:56:56. > :56:59.undemocratic. I think it would be better if we have the same sort of
:57:00. > :57:04.relationship with the rest of the European Union as we do in Nato and
:57:05. > :57:09.the United Nations. The logic of what you are saying is that
:57:10. > :57:12.difference would only exist, to take my hypothetical example of Turkey
:57:13. > :57:17.and Russia, Britain turning round and saying we don't want any of
:57:18. > :57:20.that, we will leave Nato. We'd have the right to do that because of an
:57:21. > :57:30.interdict that -- intergovernmental agreement. You got to look at recent
:57:31. > :57:34.events where countries have different views about what sort of
:57:35. > :57:41.action should be taken, Nato is a really presenting united front on
:57:42. > :57:46.this any more than the Union is. We're running out of time. Stephen,
:57:47. > :57:49.I wanted to ask you about the No Campaign in Scotland, the timing.
:57:50. > :57:56.I'm not sure I'm best place for that, Gordon! You were opposed to
:57:57. > :58:03.David Cameron's timing on this. I know you were disappointed that the
:58:04. > :58:08.European elections happen before the Scottish Referendum in Ukip won a
:58:09. > :58:12.seat. Because of the meshing of these two things, is your concern
:58:13. > :58:16.that you could get a lot more publicity and potentially did quite
:58:17. > :58:23.well in the Scottish elections? Look, Ukip have yet to see the
:58:24. > :58:30.deposit in a Parliamentary election, so perhaps a bit of an irrelevance.
:58:31. > :58:35.The reason we want to see a long campaign is because I think the case
:58:36. > :58:40.for Scotland as a member of the EU, and the UK, stands up to scrutiny,
:58:41. > :58:43.so let's put it under scrutiny, and as Nicola Sturgeon wrote in her
:58:44. > :58:49.letter and as was agreed by the first ministers of Northern Ireland
:58:50. > :58:52.and Wales, to having just six weeks to do this was not a lot of time.
:58:53. > :58:57.I'll be back at the usual time of 11.00am next week.