:00:35. > :00:38.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:40.The Prime Minister rams home his claim that leaving
:00:41. > :00:42.the European Union puts jobs, security, even
:00:43. > :00:47.Many Tories don't like his arguments - or his tone.
:00:48. > :00:51.David Cameron's mentor and former Tory leader Michael Howard will be
:00:52. > :00:55.here to tell us why he thinks it's safe for Britain to leave,
:00:56. > :01:00.and Labour big beast Alan Johnson will make the case for staying in.
:01:01. > :01:04.Labour's not exactly united when it comes to renewing Trident.
:01:05. > :01:07.That didn't stop Jeremy Corbyn telling protestors yesterday
:01:08. > :01:11.that he believes in a nuclear-free Britain.
:01:12. > :01:13.Following the death of young Conservative activist
:01:14. > :01:17.Elliott Johnson amid allegations of bullying within the party,
:01:18. > :01:20.we've spoken to one of those close to the centre of the story
:01:21. > :01:35.Who are these people who aren't the lead or threatened? Nobody has come
:01:36. > :01:36.forward and there is evidence I didn't do those things.
:01:37. > :01:38.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:
:01:39. > :01:42.rally in London yesterday, the GMB challenges Labour to say
:01:43. > :01:48.where the replacement jobs of its members will come from.
:01:49. > :01:54.All that to come - and with me for the duration,
:01:55. > :01:57.three journalists who show as much consensus on the big political
:01:58. > :02:06.For balance I should say they fall out as often as Jeremy Corbyn's
:02:07. > :02:10.It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakshott and Janan Ganesh.
:02:11. > :02:12.And speaking of cabinet unity, there's a distinct lack
:02:13. > :02:13.of it in this morning's papers
:02:14. > :02:17.of campaigning since David Cameron announced that a referendum
:02:18. > :02:20.on Britain's EU membership will take place on the 23rd of June.
:02:21. > :02:23.The Fleet Street hounds have caught the scent of a good old-fashioned
:02:24. > :02:25.Conservative feud over Europe, and with the party and the cabinet
:02:26. > :02:28.divided over whether Britain should stay or go, they're not
:02:29. > :02:31.The Sunday Times says David Cameron has been warned
:02:32. > :02:34.that he'll face a leadership challenge if he doesn't call a halt
:02:35. > :02:36.to so-called 'blue on blue' attacks on fellow Conservatives.
:02:37. > :02:38.The Sunday Telegraph reports on the 'battle of wills'
:02:39. > :02:43.between the two sides with pieces by David Cameron
:02:44. > :02:46.and Iain Duncan Smith, who says 'they can sack me
:02:47. > :02:52.The Observer leads with Number 10's main message,
:02:53. > :02:55.which is to say that a British exit would spark decades
:02:56. > :03:05.And the Mail on Sunday says the Tory feud turned really
:03:06. > :03:08.nasty after Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond had what it called
:03:09. > :03:12.So it seems fair to say that relations between David Cameron
:03:13. > :03:14.and eurosceptics in his party aren't exactly cordial.
:03:15. > :03:16.The welfare secretary Iain Duncan Smith, he's one
:03:17. > :03:18.of the cabinet ministers arguing to leave, was asked about it
:03:19. > :03:31.You don't think the Prime Minister is much of a patriot, do you? This
:03:32. > :03:37.is not about personalities. They in campaign's whole strategy seems to
:03:38. > :03:41.be about, it is terrible, it is about saying that we are too small,
:03:42. > :03:44.too inconsequential and we cannot do what we want. I don't know why
:03:45. > :03:48.anybody would want to run a country like this. This country is the
:03:49. > :03:53.greatest honour. I think probably the first time a cabinet minister
:03:54. > :03:58.has been asked if the Prime Minister is a patriot and he does not reply
:03:59. > :04:03.yes. Is Mr Cameron getting the tone and the content of this right? I
:04:04. > :04:07.think he made a big mistake earlier this week when he lashed out at
:04:08. > :04:11.Boris Johnson in the Commons. I think there was a degree of over
:04:12. > :04:15.interpreting those comments, and I understand that there was a fuss
:04:16. > :04:20.about whether or not he had slighted Boris Johnson's personal life with a
:04:21. > :04:24.reference to knowing couples that had divorced. Mr Cameron thought he
:04:25. > :04:29.had Boris in the bag. He was certainly bruised by that. The
:04:30. > :04:36.comment on marriage went over Doris's aired, so there was a bit of
:04:37. > :04:41.over interpreting by people on all sides. -- over progress's aired. But
:04:42. > :04:47.if Cameron is being called to stop these attacks, he is the one who
:04:48. > :04:50.started them. Europe is just another word for division in the Tory Party
:04:51. > :04:55.but it almost seems like the manner and the tone of what the prime
:04:56. > :05:01.ministers saying, he is almost going out of his way to upset those
:05:02. > :05:05.opposed to him. I disagree. I think the grievances in the papers today
:05:06. > :05:09.are spurious. It has not been a blue on blue campaign so far, not a huge
:05:10. > :05:14.amount of animosity and poison so far although it is early days. Do
:05:15. > :05:18.they expect him not to play the economic risk card? Do they expect
:05:19. > :05:22.him to go through the next four mums using the single most devastating
:05:23. > :05:25.line of attack he has against the other side, which is the unknown
:05:26. > :05:31.economic has heard of taking a punt on Brexit? But that argument would
:05:32. > :05:33.be true even if he had brought back the store from Brussels or brought
:05:34. > :05:40.back nothing from Brussels. The economic argument is that this could
:05:41. > :05:45.be a profound shock to the world economy. That is either true or not
:05:46. > :05:49.true, regardless of the settlement. But that is not the given reason for
:05:50. > :05:53.their frustration with him. At the moment they are focusing on the tone
:05:54. > :05:59.and negativity. And you don't feel like they have the right to be
:06:00. > :06:01.aggrieved? No. It would be bizarre Prime Minister to lead a campaign in
:06:02. > :06:05.favour of staying in without deploying his most effective weapon.
:06:06. > :06:10.And what Mr Osborne is doing with this argument is have one very
:06:11. > :06:13.simple, crude argument in the general election, that Labour was
:06:14. > :06:17.not credible, and in this campaign that it is a leap in the dark. He
:06:18. > :06:22.needs to be careful. The idea that the world economy is going to tank
:06:23. > :06:26.because Britain leaves the European Union, that Britain leaving the
:06:27. > :06:31.union is up there with the Chinese fall in growth, it is absurd. What
:06:32. > :06:34.did George Osborne do? Equalled the G20 finance ministers to write that
:06:35. > :06:38.into their conclusions. Yes, it will be a challenge for the British
:06:39. > :06:42.economy if we leave the European Union, but the idea that it is up
:06:43. > :06:45.there as a global risk that will lead to some great world economic
:06:46. > :06:49.depression, I think he needs to be careful. He has to ensure that what
:06:50. > :06:53.he does has credibility and I am not sure that passes the test. What
:06:54. > :06:56.annoys a lot of the Tories is that they are using arguments about
:06:57. > :07:01.staying in which I've always been true, regardless of whether or not
:07:02. > :07:05.the settlement makes any difference. To say that if we came out, there
:07:06. > :07:11.would be a profound economic shock, that is true regardless of the
:07:12. > :07:14.settlement. I think that is what annoys the Eurosceptics. They are
:07:15. > :07:18.using arguments that were true six months ago. And many of the
:07:19. > :07:22.arguments are very thin. David Cameron has written for the
:07:23. > :07:26.Telegraph today saying that he can describe exactly what people will be
:07:27. > :07:30.voting for if they vote to stay in. It is the status quo, it is not very
:07:31. > :07:35.difficult to describe that. It is very frustrating for Eurosceptics
:07:36. > :07:40.that there is this constant spurious claim by the In campaign that they
:07:41. > :07:45.cannot describe what Out looks like. They describe what it looks like
:07:46. > :07:49.everyday. The problem is that it is under article 50 of the Lisbon
:07:50. > :07:52.Treaty that exit people cannot guarantee the deal. They can say it
:07:53. > :07:55.might be this or that but they cannot guarantee it because we are
:07:56. > :07:59.out of the European Council the moment we press the button. You
:08:00. > :08:00.wonder whether either side can guarantee what the country will be
:08:01. > :08:08.like whether we stay in or come out. We have a pretty good idea of who
:08:09. > :08:16.will be fighting on which site. Both the Leave and the Remain camps
:08:17. > :08:19.have their own big figures, and they wasted little time
:08:20. > :08:21.in putting aside old loyalties Let's have a look at some of the big
:08:22. > :08:25.moments of the week. I have known a number of couples
:08:26. > :08:28.who have begun divorce proceedings but I do not know any who have begun
:08:29. > :08:31.divorce proceedings in order This open border does not allow us
:08:32. > :08:38.to check and control people who may come and we have seen what has
:08:39. > :08:41.happened in Paris where they spent ages planning and plotting
:08:42. > :08:46.so who is to say it is not beyond the wit of man that those
:08:47. > :08:49.might already be thinking about it? Today almost 200 of Britain's
:08:50. > :08:52.biggest firms including 36 on the FTSE 100 index published
:08:53. > :08:55.a letter warning that so-called Brexit would put
:08:56. > :09:06.the economy at risk. We have a great opportunity now
:09:07. > :09:11.to strike new deals for Britain to be the hub of new trading
:09:12. > :09:13.arrangements around the world and to have a fantastic new future
:09:14. > :09:17.so that is what I am going for. In my judgment as Chancellor leaving
:09:18. > :09:20.the EU would represent a profound economic shock for our country,
:09:21. > :09:23.for all of us and I am going to do everything I can to
:09:24. > :09:26.prevent that happening. The European Court of Justice
:09:27. > :09:29.interprets the European Union treaties and until this agreement
:09:30. > :09:31.is embodied in treaty change then the European Court of Justice is not
:09:32. > :09:37.bound by this agreement. You saw there a few of
:09:38. > :09:40.the Conservative allies David Cameron has failed to persuade
:09:41. > :09:44.of the case for remaining in the EU, and now I'm joined by another one -
:09:45. > :09:46.the former party leader, Tory peer and leave
:09:47. > :09:55.campaign Michael Howard. Welcome to the programme. Let's
:09:56. > :09:58.start on this idea of a second referendum. You have indicated that
:09:59. > :10:02.a vote to leave could jolt the rest of the EU into giving us a better
:10:03. > :10:06.and bigger and more compounds of deal. That could trigger a second
:10:07. > :10:11.referendum. Mr Cameron says that is fiction and Boris Johnson now says
:10:12. > :10:17.the same. Are you sticking to that? Yes. I cannot guarantee that would
:10:18. > :10:22.happen but it is a possibility. Everybody who wants us to vote
:10:23. > :10:29.Remain is going to say it is for the birds, and I understand that. There
:10:30. > :10:33.want us to vote to remain. Mr Johnson is saying that, too. And I
:10:34. > :10:36.don't agree with him. We have reached the same conclusion by
:10:37. > :10:39.different routes. The European Union has form on this. They have done it
:10:40. > :10:42.before in relation to Ireland and has form on this. They have done it
:10:43. > :10:48.Denmark. The very things that make it certain that we would thrive as
:10:49. > :10:51.an independent country, the fact that we are the fifth biggest
:10:52. > :10:56.economy in the world, the strongest military power in Europe, the fact
:10:57. > :10:59.that we are the second-biggest contributor to the European Union
:11:00. > :11:02.budget, those things would mean that we would be sorely missed if we left
:11:03. > :11:07.and that is why I think the countries in Europe, the European
:11:08. > :11:12.leaders would say that if we voted to leave, let's have some more talks
:11:13. > :11:17.and let's think again. Would they? Brexit, I think, if it happens would
:11:18. > :11:21.happen at a time of what is clearly crisis for the EU, perhaps the worst
:11:22. > :11:24.crisis in its history. If it responded by giving us everything
:11:25. > :11:28.that the Eurosceptics wanted, there could be a rush to the door by other
:11:29. > :11:34.countries. Why would the EU risk that? The very fact they are in a
:11:35. > :11:39.crisis means they need us all the more. I cannot guarantee that they
:11:40. > :11:43.would. It is an unknown. There is a chance of that but if they don't
:11:44. > :11:48.come back, if all we are left with is the current under formed European
:11:49. > :11:54.Union, I think we are better out than in. OK. Turning to the
:11:55. > :12:02.economics. Last week we saw some of Britain's biggest companies,
:12:03. > :12:07.household names, warning against the dangers of leaving the EU for jobs
:12:08. > :12:12.and investment. Why should the British people not listen to them?
:12:13. > :12:18.First of all, they were a minority even of the bosses of the FTSE 100
:12:19. > :12:23.companies. Moore did not sign them signed. Secondly, don't take it from
:12:24. > :12:27.me, take it from someone with real authority, someone like Mervyn King,
:12:28. > :12:30.the former governor of the Bank of England, who pointed out yesterday
:12:31. > :12:33.that we ought to take what these people say with a pinch of salt.
:12:34. > :12:38.Many of them were strong adherence of us joining the euro and predicted
:12:39. > :12:44.economic disaster for us if we did not. But not all of them. How many
:12:45. > :12:50.FTSE 100 chief executives are on your side? I don't know. But many
:12:51. > :12:54.business people are, particularly small business people. And
:12:55. > :12:58.particularly business people who do most of their business with
:12:59. > :13:02.countries outside of the EU and who are very hampered in doing so by the
:13:03. > :13:05.rules to which we are in thrall. The kind of people who signed this
:13:06. > :13:08.letter saying we should stay in, they are also the same kind of
:13:09. > :13:13.people who signed the same kind of letters backing the Tories come
:13:14. > :13:20.election time. If you want us to listen to them, when it suits you,
:13:21. > :13:25.but not when they don't agree with you? They can be right about one
:13:26. > :13:29.thing without being right about another. He wants to pick them up
:13:30. > :13:33.when it suits you and disparage them when it doesn't. Can I make a point
:13:34. > :13:36.about this? I think we are in danger of looking at these issues through
:13:37. > :13:44.the wrong end of the telescope. If we leave, there are some things that
:13:45. > :13:48.I can absolutely guarantee. Number one, we will have our democracy
:13:49. > :13:50.restored, our courts and our Parliament will no longer be
:13:51. > :13:53.subservient to the European Union. Number two, as part of that, we will
:13:54. > :13:58.recover control of our borders and Number two, as part of that, we will
:13:59. > :14:01.we will have control over who comes in and who doesn't. Number three, we
:14:02. > :14:06.will no longer have to contribute billions of pounds a year to the
:14:07. > :14:14.EU's budget. Those are certainties, indisputable. The onus is on those
:14:15. > :14:16.who wish us to remain 2.2 similar indisputable arguments which
:14:17. > :14:24.outweigh those and so far I have not seen them. But does it not worry you
:14:25. > :14:30.that all of our allies in the G20 want us to stay in. Only President
:14:31. > :14:35.Putin among world leaders once asked to leave? Does that not cause you
:14:36. > :14:43.concerned? The British people are the best people to decide what is in
:14:44. > :14:46.our interest. You could also site the Attorney General of the United
:14:47. > :14:51.States, who said that of the European Union was undermining the
:14:52. > :14:56.intelligence sharing that is so crucial in our fight against
:14:57. > :14:59.terrorism and crime. So now, it is the British people who are the best
:15:00. > :15:05.people to decide what is in our interest. The Prime Minister says
:15:06. > :15:08.there are 3 million jobs that depend in some way on our trade in the
:15:09. > :15:16.European Union. He says we would not go training -- we would go on
:15:17. > :15:19.trading with the EU, if we left, but would the trade be at the same
:15:20. > :15:23.level? How many of these jobs would be truly safe? Can you answer that
:15:24. > :15:27.question? They want to continue trading with us and we are the
:15:28. > :15:32.biggest export market for the rest of the European Union. And we run a
:15:33. > :15:38.great deficit on trade with them so it is very much in their interest to
:15:39. > :15:45.continue to trade with us. We could do some jobs, couldn't wake Umax --
:15:46. > :15:49.we could lose. I do not think the Germans would not continue selling
:15:50. > :15:53.as BMWs, or the French wine. If they want to continue to have access to
:15:54. > :15:59.our market, we need to make sure we have access to theirs. It is in our
:16:00. > :16:02.mutual interest. You say that all 3 million jobs are guaranteed? I
:16:03. > :16:08.cannot offer you any guarantees and neither can the banister. The great
:16:09. > :16:14.arts profit of integration as he did very well, when he said that if the
:16:15. > :16:17.British do not want to sign up to further integration in the European
:16:18. > :16:19.Union, we can have a very friendly relationship with them, we can sign
:16:20. > :16:21.up to a free-trade agreement with them and that would be the way
:16:22. > :16:30.forward. Let me show you what the current
:16:31. > :16:42.Home Secretary who is the longest serving Home Secretary says:
:16:43. > :16:50.I have great respect for her, I don't quite know why she says that.
:16:51. > :16:56.I believe that we can continue to have a very good and constructive
:16:57. > :17:02.working relationship with the member states of the EU on security matters
:17:03. > :17:06.if we leave. The reason I say that is simply this, we contribute a
:17:07. > :17:10.great deal to that relationship, our intelligence services are the best
:17:11. > :17:15.in Europe. They want the help we can give them and so there is absolutely
:17:16. > :17:19.no reason whatsoever why we should not continue to have a close
:17:20. > :17:24.relationship with them on these matters on an intergovernmental
:17:25. > :17:30.basis. The declaration of the European Council, which I know you
:17:31. > :17:33.have read as carefully as I have, says in terms, national security is
:17:34. > :17:38.our responsibility of the nation states. One thing we would not have
:17:39. > :17:42.access to is the European arrest warrant. We could come to an
:17:43. > :17:50.agreement on that. Let's say what you said on that:
:17:51. > :17:58.it wouldn't be if we left. It could, because we could easily reach an
:17:59. > :18:02.agreement with the Europeans that the essentials of the European
:18:03. > :18:07.arrest warrant continued in force. Not all my friends on the leading
:18:08. > :18:12.side with that that I think it would be possible to reach such an
:18:13. > :18:18.agreement. No other non-EU member has use of the arrest warrant. No
:18:19. > :18:25.relationship as we are. We don't relationship as we are. We don't
:18:26. > :18:30.know. It was used to bring back one of the failed London bombers from
:18:31. > :18:36.Italy and it came back quickly and the arrest warrant. He is now in
:18:37. > :18:41.jail, how would we do that? That is why I was in favour of it at the
:18:42. > :18:44.time and I think because we offer so much to our European neighbours in
:18:45. > :18:50.terms of the capacity which we bring to these issues they would be keen
:18:51. > :18:55.to continue in that sort of arrangement with us if we left the
:18:56. > :19:15.European Union. Let me show you what Rob Wainwright, the head of Europe
:19:16. > :19:20.all -- Europol said. The head of Europol, British, the longest
:19:21. > :19:27.serving Home Secretary, both think that our security would be more at
:19:28. > :19:30.risk. And the Attorney General of the United States accuses the
:19:31. > :19:38.European Union of undermining the fight against terrorism and I think
:19:39. > :19:43.in all of these issues we need to have some self confidence and self
:19:44. > :19:47.belief. We are a big country, an important country and we have a huge
:19:48. > :19:51.amount to offer in terms of cooperation with our neighbours. It
:19:52. > :19:55.is in the interest to continue to cooperate with us and I have no
:19:56. > :20:00.doubt we could reach perfectly satisfactory arrangements with them
:20:01. > :20:05.if we voted to leave. Finally, Mr Cameron was once your special
:20:06. > :20:09.adviser, you were his mentor and you told his mother one day that he
:20:10. > :20:14.would be Prime Minister, what did he say when you told him you are
:20:15. > :20:17.joining the league side? We had a difficult conversation, I find it
:20:18. > :20:23.difficult to be on the opposite side of the argument to David Cameron. He
:20:24. > :20:28.was very disappointed I had come to this conclusion and I understand and
:20:29. > :20:32.respect that. Michael Howard, thank you for being with
:20:33. > :20:35.So that's the case for leaving put by an elder statesman
:20:36. > :20:38.Let's turn now to an elder statesman of the Labour Party -
:20:39. > :20:42.although he's a fresh-faced one - it's Alan Johnson and he is leading
:20:43. > :20:44.the Labour In for Britain Group, and he's in Hull.
:20:45. > :20:56.Your side of the argument stresses the risks and uncertainties of
:20:57. > :21:03.leaving the EU, do you accept there are risks and uncertainties with
:21:04. > :21:07.staying? No. Not in the sense that Michael Howard was suggesting. I
:21:08. > :21:11.thought what he said was wrong, he said he could guarantee we would not
:21:12. > :21:14.be contributing to the European Union and could guarantee there
:21:15. > :21:19.would not be free movement but he cannot. If we take the Norway option
:21:20. > :21:23.which many of those on the leading site promote then we would indeed be
:21:24. > :21:30.paying them, Norway is the 10th biggest contributor. They have free
:21:31. > :21:35.movement. Why would we have to follow what Norway does? They are a
:21:36. > :21:39.small economy and we are the second largest in Europe? I am just saying
:21:40. > :21:44.that there are other options, the Swiss option once again. Michael
:21:45. > :21:51.cannot guarantee it. We are the fifth biggest economy, we were the
:21:52. > :21:54.fourth when we were in government, but people say that only leaving
:21:55. > :21:59.side but they do not equate it at all with 41 years of membership of
:22:00. > :22:07.the EU. Part of that economic strength, I am in Hull where there
:22:08. > :22:15.is the biggest investment any where in the world by Siemens, billions of
:22:16. > :22:21.pounds and 1000 jobs. They are building wind turbines for offshore
:22:22. > :22:30.Britain. It was fierce competition, if you take... They are building
:22:31. > :22:35.stuff Britain, why would they not do it here? If you take Britain outside
:22:36. > :22:42.the EU you have all kinds of uncertainties and all kinds of
:22:43. > :22:46.possible barriers. The Society of motor manufacturers point out that
:22:47. > :22:49.whilst sales to China and Russia have declined their sales to Europe
:22:50. > :22:58.are up by 10% because we don't pay any tariffs to export into Europe.
:22:59. > :23:01.The other point I wanted to mention was that Michael was part of a
:23:02. > :23:06.government which opted out of something called the social chapter,
:23:07. > :23:11.basic protection for workers. In this huge market, the biggest
:23:12. > :23:15.commercial market, bigger than China and America, there are protections
:23:16. > :23:20.for workers. Michael opted out of those and I believe that he and many
:23:21. > :23:25.others think that is good to not have those protections. We opted
:23:26. > :23:29.back in. For us those protections for workers, to avoid this country
:23:30. > :23:36.becoming a race to the bottom, anything goes kind of free-market
:23:37. > :23:40.experiment, are very important. Hold on, why couldn't the British
:23:41. > :23:43.government, why wouldn't a British government outside the EU replicate
:23:44. > :23:49.these rights if it was so minded, what would stop us from doing that
:23:50. > :23:53.if the government got the democratic will of the British people? The
:23:54. > :23:57.first point is as I have explained that a British government chose not
:23:58. > :24:01.to do that. That was Alex Goode British government. The British
:24:02. > :24:07.government that we were part of opted into those arrangements. There
:24:08. > :24:10.is nothing to suggest in the history of Conservative government that if
:24:11. > :24:15.we left the EU that they would opt into all this. That would be a
:24:16. > :24:19.matter for the British people to choose if they wanted that
:24:20. > :24:25.government. If we let the EU at the next election Labour would promise
:24:26. > :24:28.four weeks paid leave, rights for workers, paid maternity at the next
:24:29. > :24:33.election and if that is what the British people want they will vote
:24:34. > :24:37.for you? The people who want us to leave, the argument I am making, is
:24:38. > :24:43.that the people who want us to leave consider all of that to be red tape.
:24:44. > :24:47.They consider all of that to be bureaucracy. We believe in that kind
:24:48. > :24:51.of market that there has to be protection for consumers, for the
:24:52. > :24:58.environment and for workers. That is an important part of what Europe
:24:59. > :25:02.gives us. Non-EU countries, Norway, Australia, Canada, Iceland, they all
:25:03. > :25:07.score highly even on the trade unionist global workers rights
:25:08. > :25:11.index. Why wouldn't an independent UK, if voters were so minded to do
:25:12. > :25:13.so and I don't see any mainstream politician saying they would want to
:25:14. > :25:21.take away four weeks paid leave, why politician saying they would want to
:25:22. > :25:30.does it need Europe to do it? That's a very good question. In this
:25:31. > :25:34.country alone, it is a political consensus in countries like Norway
:25:35. > :25:37.and Sweden that there should be decent basic rights for workers. In
:25:38. > :25:49.this country it is an election issue. Why shouldn't it be an
:25:50. > :25:53.election issue? I believe if you are trading into this huge market and
:25:54. > :25:56.have got all those opportunities to trade then one aspect of that must
:25:57. > :26:02.be that you don't undercut each other on the basis of terms and
:26:03. > :26:05.conditions. I believe it's an essential part of being in Europe
:26:06. > :26:11.and that is why it is an important part of our campaign to maintain
:26:12. > :26:14.those rights and protections. Moving on to immigration, people are
:26:15. > :26:17.concerned about the scale of it, is there anything in the settlement of
:26:18. > :26:22.David Cameron that'll make a material difference to immigration
:26:23. > :26:30.from the EU? Yes there is, it is very underrated nice to. Two points
:26:31. > :26:35.which were negotiated by Theresa May that were not in the package that we
:26:36. > :26:39.saw in the Donald Tusk exchange were very important. First of all
:26:40. > :26:43.tackling sham marriages and secondly to say that people coming into this
:26:44. > :26:49.country who we suspect might be engaged in the future in activities
:26:50. > :26:53.we would find criminal or perhaps terrorism, that we can stop them
:26:54. > :26:59.coming in. That is important, at the moment it is based on what we know,
:27:00. > :27:03.not on what we predict. Sham marriages with their largely to the
:27:04. > :27:08.subcontinent and is very little to do with Europe. You asked me for two
:27:09. > :27:14.things... I don't know what difference it would make to the
:27:15. > :27:17.numbers, it is about 100 is to 5000 per year net migration coming to
:27:18. > :27:28.this country and it will continue at that level if we stay in want it?
:27:29. > :27:33.There is nothing we can do about net EU migration at that level.
:27:34. > :27:39.Absolutely. I have said that before. It was David Cameron's package. In
:27:40. > :27:41.fairness of people making contributions before taking
:27:42. > :27:46.working-class tax credits but I never thought this was a draw for
:27:47. > :27:52.people to come -- taking working tax credits. We can do something to stop
:27:53. > :27:58.the expectation and we don't need the rest of Europe to do that, I
:27:59. > :28:02.think David Cameron was right, you are right about free movement within
:28:03. > :28:06.the European Union but people are worried about movement coming from
:28:07. > :28:10.outside the European Union and outside the European Union ourselves
:28:11. > :28:15.I think we would be weaker. Not just because we'll would the protection
:28:16. > :28:20.of the Dublin accord -- not just because we will lose. The most
:28:21. > :28:25.honourable point is Calais to Dover and that operation of the Border
:28:26. > :28:32.Force moving to Calais, the mayor comes over and says teacher border
:28:33. > :28:36.backed every couple of months. That is between France and Britain, it is
:28:37. > :28:41.nothing to do with the European Union. This is the point and I think
:28:42. > :28:48.this is what Michael missed, if we wrench ourselves away from the
:28:49. > :28:52.European Union after 41 years of membership, does anyone think there
:28:53. > :28:59.will be huge goodwill out there for Britain? Here is another point about
:29:00. > :29:03.French politics, the French presidential right wing campaigns
:29:04. > :29:08.who might well win next year are saying they will get rid of it even
:29:09. > :29:15.if we stay in the European Union. There you are. So what is the point?
:29:16. > :29:21.Nothing to do with the EU. I don't think anybody doubt that if we left
:29:22. > :29:26.the EU it would seriously bring into jeopardy that arrangement and that
:29:27. > :29:31.is the most vulnerable entry point. Jeremy Corbyn believes we should not
:29:32. > :29:36.look upon immigration as a problem. Jeremy Corbyn believes we should not
:29:37. > :29:44.Do you agree in the context of this debate about Europe? Only in the
:29:45. > :29:48.sense that it is not the driving force, people don't come here, they
:29:49. > :29:55.come here to work by and large, they don't come here to claim benefits.
:29:56. > :29:58.In that respect I do. I think as Jeremy accepts the exploitation
:29:59. > :30:06.which comes with it needs to be addressed. So to be clear the scale
:30:07. > :30:10.of immigration if we stay in the EU does not change. It might do. I will
:30:11. > :30:18.tell you why it might do, I was Home Secretary before Theresa May, the
:30:19. > :30:22.net migration figure was around 165,000, very low. Because we had
:30:23. > :30:26.just gone through the collapse of Liman brothers and the economy was
:30:27. > :30:32.doing badly. If we come out of the EU and are in such a state as far as
:30:33. > :30:37.our economy is concerned it might stop people wanting to come here.
:30:38. > :30:41.OK, you said we have the best lyrics, meaning your side, but we
:30:42. > :30:48.are still struggling to put them to music, why can't you find the right
:30:49. > :30:54.chin? What I meant by that is they have simplistic let's regain the
:30:55. > :31:00.borders and regain our sovereign three and it's quite a complex
:31:01. > :31:04.argument to say actually we have got the best of both worlds. Yes we have
:31:05. > :31:11.some sovereign tree into Europe but that gives us influence over other
:31:12. > :31:17.member states and gives us a louder voice and a more powerful voice in
:31:18. > :31:24.the rest of the world. We will give you that, you love your music so we
:31:25. > :31:26.will give you time to find a tune until we meet again. Alan Johnson,
:31:27. > :31:30.thank you. Let's turn now to the bullying
:31:31. > :31:32.allegations surrounding the death of young Conservative
:31:33. > :31:34.activist Elliott Johnson. An inquest is due to open this week
:31:35. > :31:37.after the 21-year-old was found dead It's thought he took his own life
:31:38. > :31:41.weeks after raising allegations about the way he was being treated
:31:42. > :31:44.in the Conservatives' youth wing. He left behind a suicide note naming
:31:45. > :31:51.two other activists. Today, one of them, a man
:31:52. > :31:57.called Andre Walker, speaks out about his relationship
:31:58. > :31:59.with Elliott Johnson and the bullying allegations
:32:00. > :32:00.for the first time. For nearly six months
:32:01. > :32:10.a grieving family, friends, colleagues and the media have been
:32:11. > :32:12.trying to fathom why a young conservative activist,
:32:13. > :32:13.21-year-old Elliot Johnson, lay down on a railway line
:32:14. > :32:16.and took his own life. The student vote
:32:17. > :32:19.is really important. Just months before, he had been
:32:20. > :32:22.an enthusiastic volunteer for Road We are going to be deciding
:32:23. > :32:25.the general election. This was the brainchild of a former
:32:26. > :32:29.Conservative candidate, Mark Clarke, that would bus young
:32:30. > :32:32.conservatives around the country to campaign on doorsteps
:32:33. > :32:36.during the 2015 general election. Are you going to help change
:32:37. > :32:56.the future of our country? Since the death of Elliott,
:32:57. > :32:58.lurid headlines have reported complaints
:32:59. > :32:59.being made against Mr Clarke of bullying, sexual impropriety
:33:00. > :33:02.and blackmail in relation All of which Mr Clarke
:33:03. > :33:05.vigorously denies. Accusations of a Conservative
:33:06. > :33:08.cover-up have led to the resignation of former party co-chairman
:33:09. > :33:09.Grant Shapps, pressure on the current chairman
:33:10. > :33:12.Lord Feldman, Mr Clarke banned from the party for life,
:33:13. > :33:15.and an internal party investigation underway already widely criticised
:33:16. > :33:19.by the Johnson family. Elliott left a note to be read
:33:20. > :33:22.after his death directly accusing Mr Clarke of bullying him
:33:23. > :33:24.and another person, The note was not all that Elliott
:33:25. > :33:33.left, there was also a secret recording of a night at a pub
:33:34. > :33:37.with all three of them in which Andre Walker appears
:33:38. > :33:40.aggressive and threatening over an official complaint Elliott
:33:41. > :34:01.was going to make about Mr Clarke. In the six months which have
:34:02. > :34:07.followed, Andre Walker has been portrayed in the media
:34:08. > :34:09.as Mr Clarke's henchmen, ready to strongarm those
:34:10. > :34:20.who stood in his way. Now in his first interview Mr Walker
:34:21. > :34:23.gives his side of events nature of his friendship
:34:24. > :34:26.with Elliot Johnson. The Andre Walker that the public has
:34:27. > :34:29.seen so far in relation to this story, is that an Andre
:34:30. > :34:31.Walker you recognise? If I take you back to the day
:34:32. > :34:35.that the covert recording took place, Elliott asked me to come
:34:36. > :34:38.with him to meet with Mark Clarke which was a meeting that he wanted
:34:39. > :34:41.to discuss the problems they had. I met Elliott beforehand and we went
:34:42. > :34:45.to the pub together and met Mark. What you hear is me getting
:34:46. > :34:47.frustrated partway through What you don't hear,
:34:48. > :34:51.what wasn't released to most of the media was at the end Elliott
:34:52. > :34:54.inviting me back to his place because I had missed the last train
:34:55. > :34:59.and us leaving the pub together. If you look at that secret
:35:00. > :35:01.recording, it sounds like you are some kind of hatchet
:35:02. > :35:07.man for Mark Clarke. I think everyone who is fat
:35:08. > :35:14.and from the North of England and involved in politics gets
:35:15. > :35:16.accused of being a bruiser and it is something I never took
:35:17. > :35:19.particularly seriously, I don't recognise the criticism
:35:20. > :35:24.and I think the media has called almost everyone I have ever met
:35:25. > :35:27.in politics and who are these people that I bullied
:35:28. > :35:29.or threatened or harangued? Nobody has come forward,
:35:30. > :35:31.in fact there is plenty of evidence that I didn't do any
:35:32. > :35:33.of those things. What was the nature
:35:34. > :35:35.of the relationship So, Mark Clarke introduced me
:35:36. > :35:39.to Elliott because we both had We hit it off straightaway
:35:40. > :35:42.and the relationship started It lasted until the day he died,
:35:43. > :35:50.as far as I was concerned. The reason I have been coy
:35:51. > :35:53.about that is I know that saying I'm very sorry about that
:35:54. > :35:58.and it is not my intention to go out We have got to discuss this issue,
:35:59. > :36:03.we have to discuss the issue of homophobia and why people,
:36:04. > :36:06.even as close to him as me were not told about the mental
:36:07. > :36:07.health problems. This is a reference
:36:08. > :36:10.to a British Transport Police report prepared ahead of this weeks
:36:11. > :36:19.inquest seen by Mr Walker. The Daily Mail has reported that it
:36:20. > :36:29.suggests: But also that Elliot
:36:30. > :36:31.Johnson had made previous health issues relating
:36:32. > :36:37.to his being accepted as gay. Speaking to the BBC in response
:36:38. > :36:40.to the story, his father denies It is not relevant, Elliott
:36:41. > :36:49.took his life because he had been bullied and picked on generally
:36:50. > :36:53.by certain persons and let down by other organisations around
:36:54. > :36:55.the Conservative Party. He was treated badly,
:36:56. > :37:01.that is why he took his life. He was treated appallingly by people
:37:02. > :37:10.and organisations and we want to make sure that he receives
:37:11. > :37:12.justice for what happened to him. Many of Andre Walker's old friends
:37:13. > :37:15.have blamed him and shunned him. He says that has prevented him
:37:16. > :37:18.from being able to grieve. I was not able to go
:37:19. > :37:20.to the funeral service. Because of the things
:37:21. > :37:22.which were said about me. That was very hurtful
:37:23. > :37:25.because I would have liked Similarly I don't know where
:37:26. > :37:28.Elliott's final resting place is, I would like to visit it,
:37:29. > :37:31.whether that is going to be possible The one memorial service I was able
:37:32. > :37:38.to go to somebody screamed at me and I was effectively thrown out
:37:39. > :37:42.which has just made it impossible for me to pay my respects in the way
:37:43. > :37:45.that I feel I ought to. How would you describe Elliott
:37:46. > :37:48.as a person? He was great fun, we used to go out
:37:49. > :37:53.and have a real laugh and I think that this sort of sad life
:37:54. > :37:56.which people have characterised him as having in London where it was all
:37:57. > :38:06.very depressing and he didn't have many friends and people
:38:07. > :38:09.were bullying him on a day-to-day basis, to my mind is surely not him
:38:10. > :38:13.at all and I think it is sad that It's just gone 11.35am,
:38:14. > :38:16.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:17. > :38:58.in Scotland who leave us now It's just gone 11:35pm.
:38:59. > :38:59.You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:39:00. > :39:02.in Scotland, who leave us now Good morning and welcome
:39:03. > :39:10.to Sunday Politics Scotland. As anti-Trident protesters rallied
:39:11. > :39:13.in London yesterday, the GMB union issued a challenge
:39:14. > :39:16.to the Labour leadership over jobs. We'll speak to Labour MSP
:39:17. > :39:34.Neil Findlay and the union's The Liberal Democrats claim
:39:35. > :39:36.the party has punched We'll watch their leader
:39:37. > :39:40.Willie Rennie float like a butterfly Professor Tom Devine was a prominent
:39:41. > :39:42.Yes supporter during the referendum. We'll ask him if he's
:39:43. > :39:48.changed his mind. When the Labour party elected
:39:49. > :39:50.Jeremy Corbyn as its leader last September, you might have been
:39:51. > :39:53.forgiven for thinking the big unions But on Thursday the GMB issued
:39:54. > :39:57.a direct challenge to the Labour leader over the renewal of Trident,
:39:58. > :40:00.accusing him of being irresponsible to talk about scrapping the nuclear
:40:01. > :40:02.missile system without addressing the implications for
:40:03. > :40:04.jobs and communities. The union, which represents
:40:05. > :40:06.civilian defence workers, Yesterday, Mr Corbyn addressed
:40:07. > :40:09.an anti-Trident protest The union, which represents
:40:10. > :40:10.civilian defence workers, Yesterday, Mr Corbyn addressed
:40:11. > :40:14.an anti-Trident protest in central London, along
:40:15. > :40:30.with the First Minister, The Scottish Labour Party has also
:40:31. > :40:35.rejected the renewal of Trident. Here is Neil Findlay speaking at
:40:36. > :40:40.that time. I have opposed nuclear weapons all my life, I am a member
:40:41. > :40:47.of CND and make the edition is clear. I want to see small
:40:48. > :40:53.businesses around Faslane oppose Trident, I want nationalists,
:40:54. > :40:59.liberals, Greens and I even want Tories to join the campaign against
:41:00. > :41:02.Trident. I spoke to Neil Findlay in Grangemouth and began by asking if
:41:03. > :41:10.it was right that the Labour feeder spoke at that anti-Trident rally.
:41:11. > :41:16.Jeremy has had a long-standing queue on nuclear weapons since his first
:41:17. > :41:18.logical thought, he has been very involved in the peace movement and
:41:19. > :41:33.the campaign for nuclear disarmament. You argue against
:41:34. > :41:37.Labour Party policy? Jeremy was consistent in putting across his
:41:38. > :41:41.view, a QC has held for decades and you would be the first person to
:41:42. > :41:46.criticise him had he not spoken out on an issue that he has campaigned
:41:47. > :41:53.so passionately about over the years. A consistent line he has
:41:54. > :41:57.taken but the party is having a big debate over the future of the
:41:58. > :42:01.nuclear weapon system and many other people will express their views in
:42:02. > :42:07.that debate, it is healthy and democratic, but other parties who do
:42:08. > :42:13.not have healthy debate, they have a line given by the top and everybody
:42:14. > :42:18.is supposed to fall into line. Is it OK for the deputy leader, Tom
:42:19. > :42:22.Watson, to suggest he will back David Cameron and vote for the
:42:23. > :42:28.renewal of Trident no matter what the Labour review decides? Lets see
:42:29. > :42:33.what the review does decide and not pre-empt what that review is and
:42:34. > :42:38.what comes out of that review. We should all indicate with that
:42:39. > :42:42.debate, we encourage people to put across their Duke and I look forward
:42:43. > :42:49.to that debate going on over the next while until we come up with a
:42:50. > :42:54.position. That does not answer my question, you as a party have to
:42:55. > :42:58.accept it is up to conscience which way we vote on nuclear weapons.
:42:59. > :43:04.There is no way when you have your leader standing in a rally with
:43:05. > :43:08.Nicola Sturgeon campaigning against Labour policy, should Labour decided
:43:09. > :43:15.to be against nuclear weapons, you cannot argue individual members
:43:16. > :43:22.should not vote for them. Let's see what comes out under review. This is
:43:23. > :43:27.not about that, I am suggesting there is no way Labour can't demand
:43:28. > :43:33.its own MPs vote in line with party policy no matter what the outcome of
:43:34. > :43:39.your review. For some people that will be a conscience issue, it
:43:40. > :43:43.always has been a conscience issue for some people and they may take
:43:44. > :43:48.that decision but the party is in the process of having a review, it
:43:49. > :43:52.will report and we will move forward on that basis. The Scottish
:43:53. > :44:00.Secretary of the GMB said people like you are, and I quote,
:44:01. > :44:03.professional poseurs and armchair generals playing their student
:44:04. > :44:09.politics as they sip lactase in Hollywood and Islington. I don't
:44:10. > :44:17.know what the last eight copies are alike in Grangemouth but you get the
:44:18. > :44:22.point. -- lactase. I am not a big fan of those but Gary Smith is
:44:23. > :44:30.entitled to defend members' positions. This is a serious debate
:44:31. > :44:38.that is taking place, he is entitled to put across his views in that and
:44:39. > :44:43.I welcome that but I think it is an unfortunate choice of language. Many
:44:44. > :44:48.people involved in this debate have had decades of commitment to the
:44:49. > :44:52.trade union movement and the greatest advocates of trade unionism
:44:53. > :45:00.and that type of language is unhelpful. He would say, my language
:45:01. > :45:06.may or may not be unhelpful, that is academic, you are threatening my
:45:07. > :45:12.members' jobs. The jobs issue is critical in this debate and I said
:45:13. > :45:16.so when I spoke at the Labour Party conference, the jobs issue is the
:45:17. > :45:20.biggest issue we have to wrestle with because I am not in the
:45:21. > :45:24.business of putting any one out at work, so we have to look at how we
:45:25. > :45:29.maintain those skills and those jobs, highly skilled people in the
:45:30. > :45:35.defence sector. You have no grounds to do that. Wait, how we keep them
:45:36. > :45:43.in work and provide them with a future is a critical element. You
:45:44. > :45:47.have no credible plan to do that. If we look at what happened in other
:45:48. > :45:53.places, for example the US went naval bases closed there was a
:45:54. > :46:00.diversification process that front on further employment and the ST UC
:46:01. > :46:04.and others have advised a similar process. They would not be
:46:05. > :46:10.advocating that type of process to put Gary Smith and the GMB members
:46:11. > :46:17.to work, that is not the business we are in. On Europe, have you decided
:46:18. > :46:23.which side you were on in the referendum? I am watching the debate
:46:24. > :46:28.carefully. I've personally, since I came into politics have been
:46:29. > :46:33.chronicled of the anti-democratic way the EU operates but at this
:46:34. > :46:39.stage I have not made up my mind how to vote in the referendum, but I
:46:40. > :46:45.would find it impossible to campaign alongside some of the characters who
:46:46. > :46:48.are joining forces in this referendum, Nigel Farage and Boris
:46:49. > :46:54.Johnson and people like that, I would find that impossible, and I
:46:55. > :46:59.would be uncomfortable campaigning alongside David Cameron, so why do
:47:00. > :47:04.not see myself taking an active role on either side of the campaign but I
:47:05. > :47:07.will make my decision on how I vote nearer the time. But you must have
:47:08. > :47:13.made up your mind. It is not as if nearer the time. But you must have
:47:14. > :47:19.it is a sudden issue, we have been in the EU since 1973. We have, all
:47:20. > :47:28.my life we have been in it but there are issues and in relation to what
:47:29. > :47:34.Cameron has negotiated, some of which is appalling, but bigger
:47:35. > :47:37.issues at stake about democracy, accountability and hope the EU
:47:38. > :47:50.operates and I will take my time to make up my mind. We had Alan, sorry,
:47:51. > :47:53.John Mills from Labour Leave on this programme saying he would organise a
:47:54. > :48:02.Labour campaign to leave the EU, what if he asks you to join in? I
:48:03. > :48:10.will listen to all sides in the debate but I do not think I will be
:48:11. > :48:15.taking a front for centre role. I have more local issues to deal with,
:48:16. > :48:19.the small matter of a Scottish election and that is concentrating
:48:20. > :48:25.my mind and all my energies are being put into working hard in the
:48:26. > :48:28.constituency where I am standing and that will be my focus.
:48:29. > :48:31.Listening to that was Gary Smith, who is the Scottish organiser
:48:32. > :48:44.You stand accused of unfortunate use of language. How would you recover
:48:45. > :48:48.from that? This debate over Trident is an indulgent debate played by
:48:49. > :48:56.people who were happy doing student politics. This position was hatched
:48:57. > :49:01.in Islington and Holyrood and the whole Scottish political elite is in
:49:02. > :49:06.direct confrontation with the organised working class. I would
:49:07. > :49:12.rather see Labour politicians like Neil Findlay and Jeremy Corbyn
:49:13. > :49:16.attacking Nicola Sturgeon and her government's record, thousands of
:49:17. > :49:21.jobs being cut, services to the first Scots cut, unemployment
:49:22. > :49:26.rising, no response to what is happening in oil and gas, no
:49:27. > :49:29.opportunities for young people, these are the issues we should be
:49:30. > :49:35.talking about rather than something they have no control over like
:49:36. > :49:40.Trident. But I am not sure it is fair to call someone like Neil
:49:41. > :49:46.Findlay a student politician. This is student politics, an indulgent
:49:47. > :49:51.debate, these are the logical poseurs who rather than talk about
:49:52. > :49:55.real issues and real concerns of working class communities are
:49:56. > :49:59.happier on marches threatening to sack workers in Scotland, and the
:50:00. > :50:03.workers who will go if Trident wasn't renewed or not just at the
:50:04. > :50:10.low workload, it would be at BAE Systems. I had a member marching
:50:11. > :50:15.when Rosyth was privatised by Dutch, Neil Findlay was on those marches
:50:16. > :50:21.and I remember when John major tried to close it and now Labour
:50:22. > :50:26.politicians, rather than challenging the nationalist record on jobs, are
:50:27. > :50:31.marching to have these places closed because the workers on the Upper
:50:32. > :50:35.Clyde will be redeployed to Baron Furnace and hundreds of them are
:50:36. > :50:38.already there because they have big gaps in the work programme. This is
:50:39. > :50:49.an infantile debate. There is something very odd going on
:50:50. > :50:54.here because the readers wanted a left-wing Labour Party and now they
:50:55. > :51:00.have got it they are accused of going on to student politicians. 1%
:51:01. > :51:04.of the eligible trade union vote went to Jeremy Corbyn so this was
:51:05. > :51:09.never an argument, it is not for me to comment on his leadership as an
:51:10. > :51:13.entirety but this was never a working class movement, let's not
:51:14. > :51:18.kid ourselves on. What we have now is in effect a middle-class elite or
:51:19. > :51:20.that Holyrood and Islington going head-to-head with organised working
:51:21. > :51:23.class because they are trying to head-to-head with organised working
:51:24. > :51:29.throw our members out of jobs at the upper Clyde, precise and the lower
:51:30. > :51:35.Clyde. If they do decide that the Labour Party to be against Trident
:51:36. > :51:41.free new bull it seems possible even likely, is there anything you can do
:51:42. > :51:44.about it? What is awful is we have the leader of the Labour Party
:51:45. > :51:48.speaking against his own party policy. It is an inconvenient truth
:51:49. > :51:53.for a meal and others that we have party policy. If they change the
:51:54. > :51:57.Wallasey it will make no difference. What we have said through this whole
:51:58. > :52:02.debate is Trident renewal is going ahead. It is happening, creating
:52:03. > :52:06.jobs at the lower Clyde, we have hundreds of people already working
:52:07. > :52:11.on the Spotlight side, it is good news for jobs on the Opera Clyde, it
:52:12. > :52:15.will not make any change whatsoever and that is why Labour should be
:52:16. > :52:20.concentrating on the issues of the day, John Swinney 's cuts budget.
:52:21. > :52:23.Let me say this, Nicola Sturgeon says this will be able he can be
:52:24. > :52:30.issued during the Scottish election while that is diversely politics and
:52:31. > :52:36.I will be writing to Sturgeon tomorrow about workers from her own
:52:37. > :52:41.constituency and down at Faslane and Coulport as well. If Labour were
:52:42. > :52:46.down the coast as Jeremy Corbyn Monts, with that affect the union
:52:47. > :52:49.support for the Labour Party? It would not make a difference in terms
:52:50. > :52:53.of jobs which is the crucial issue for us. The union then of course
:52:54. > :53:01.would take a decision on our relationship with the party but I
:53:02. > :53:03.keep say this. You would not drop your readership of the Labour Party?
:53:04. > :53:07.keep say this. You would not drop That would be an issue of debate.
:53:08. > :53:13.Neal Finlay and others should be talking about the job crisis in
:53:14. > :53:17.Scotland, the lack of opportunity for working people. You have heard
:53:18. > :53:20.what he had to say about finding alternative jobs, what do you think
:53:21. > :53:24.about that? They have not come alternative jobs, what do you think
:53:25. > :53:28.with credible alternative employment and we have lost faith in demolition
:53:29. > :53:34.and these politicians are now expecting us to trust them to find
:53:35. > :53:38.alternative work? The only proposals that are an alternative to Trident
:53:39. > :53:46.has come from Corbin saying we should build it without missiles and
:53:47. > :53:53.Livingston saying let's invest the money instead in the arts. What are
:53:54. > :53:57.they going to do? Get the ship rights to the waiters? Give them a
:53:58. > :54:01.box of Koreans and a colouring in book? How are they going to feed
:54:02. > :54:11.their families and keep a roof over their head? -- crayons. Obviously we
:54:12. > :54:15.don't like to see people lose their jobs but weapons of mass disruption
:54:16. > :54:18.is a bigger issue than that. It is not about whether the people who
:54:19. > :54:23.make them more uninvolved with them lose their jobs but it is a much
:54:24. > :54:25.bigger issue. You can have your principles but could also have
:54:26. > :54:30.consequences and those against the Trident renewal programme either in
:54:31. > :54:35.direct conflict with workers and working communities in Scotland.
:54:36. > :54:37.Thank you, we will have to leave it there.
:54:38. > :54:39.There was a time when the Liberal Democrats were big
:54:40. > :54:43.The party has served in government at Westminster and Holyrood,
:54:44. > :54:45.but more recently has suffered heavy losses at the hands
:54:46. > :54:49.They used their spring conference in Edinburgh this weekend to attempt
:54:50. > :54:51.to sell their message of fairness to the voters.
:54:52. > :54:53.But with just a few months until the Scottish election,
:54:54. > :54:56.will the public buy it, or are the Lib Dems still
:54:57. > :55:16.Our reporter Andrew Black went to find out.
:55:17. > :55:23.Politics, it's a brutal old game and that's a lesson the Lib Dems have
:55:24. > :55:29.had to learn the lad -- hard way. Recently it seems the Scottish Lib
:55:30. > :55:35.Dems haven't even fully reflect on public opinion. That hasn't always
:55:36. > :55:40.been the case. After all, this was a party which used to be in power,
:55:41. > :55:48.both in Holyrood and Westminster, it has now been reduced to one Scottish
:55:49. > :55:52.MP and a handful of MSPs. Now the Lib Dems have done what every
:55:53. > :56:00.political party does when it's on the ropes, launched a fightback. At
:56:01. > :56:09.times signs of this fightback were always evident. That said, Lib Dem
:56:10. > :56:11.leader, Willie Rennie, said his party, despite small numbers, has
:56:12. > :56:17.helped the Scottish Government to account on key issues like policing.
:56:18. > :56:20.That's the kind of record, he says, will stand the Lib Dem is in good
:56:21. > :56:27.stead ahead of the Scottish election. We can be the best again
:56:28. > :56:32.if we are bold, bright, liberal and green. If you want change, one thing
:56:33. > :56:36.is to be better, if you want to get Scotland's fit for the future, if
:56:37. > :56:44.you want Scotland to be the best again, that the Liberal Democrats.
:56:45. > :56:50.That was a message which seemed to go down well with Lib Dem
:56:51. > :56:54.supporters. Hard work to do. A lot of brothers and the a lot of teeth
:56:55. > :57:02.in Willie Rennie, he is very, very popular. This is the first time the
:57:03. > :57:04.Lib Dems have suffered since me but I think it is important to remember
:57:05. > :57:09.that we can always come back. I I think it is important to remember
:57:10. > :57:17.couldn't be anything else. I am liberal to my back on. So, how does
:57:18. > :57:24.Willie Rennie reverses fortunes? One of his big ideas is to add a penny
:57:25. > :57:31.to income tax, raising money to boost education. Holyrood is one
:57:32. > :57:38.thing but Lib Dems in Scotland also have a role to play in aiding the
:57:39. > :57:43.party revival across the UK. You deserve victory but you will not get
:57:44. > :57:50.it by accident, only by fighting with passion, belief, discipline and
:57:51. > :57:55.energy. Get out there, get on the doorsteps, rain, wind, maybe even
:57:56. > :58:02.shine, victory is there to be one, Scotland meet you to win. So, can
:58:03. > :58:08.the Scottish Liberal Democrats delivers some glitz to a brand once
:58:09. > :58:10.more popular than it is now? All that, of course, is up to the
:58:11. > :58:12.supporters. Willie Rennie joins me now
:58:13. > :58:21.from our Edinburgh studio. Willie Rennie, we will talk about
:58:22. > :58:25.the election any moment but I wanted to ask, the Lib Dems were critical
:58:26. > :58:31.of the fiscal framework deal done this week, can you explain exactly
:58:32. > :58:35.why? The real issue is that whilst there is a cash agreement for the
:58:36. > :58:39.next five years we do not know what the arrangement is going to be after
:58:40. > :58:46.that. The conditions might not be as favourable for Scotland at that
:58:47. > :58:49.time. While she's also, in Nicola Sturgeon, has embedded the Treasury
:58:50. > :58:54.model which she is very critical of fiscal part of the fiscal framework,
:58:55. > :58:56.it is very difficult to get something out of a framework when it
:58:57. > :59:02.has already been established in the framework that actually to have an
:59:03. > :59:06.open blank sheet which we would have advocated. We would have preferred
:59:07. > :59:08.to have the Treasury model out of the fiscal framework now rather than
:59:09. > :59:14.having all the arguments again in five years' time. You are worried
:59:15. > :59:20.she has sold the past as it were? Yes, I don't think it sets itself up
:59:21. > :59:24.well for a debate in five years' time over this. It is good she
:59:25. > :59:28.managed to get the cash agreement which was helpful for Scotland but
:59:29. > :59:34.it is just this big argument in five years' time which I don't think
:59:35. > :59:37.helps Scotland. You'd ideas for the election, pupil premium, you want to
:59:38. > :59:42.have one in Scotland and it was a Lib Dem policy in England. Is there
:59:43. > :59:46.any hard evidence it has made a blind bit of difference? It has. The
:59:47. > :59:52.evidence has shown that the attainment gap has closed by five
:59:53. > :59:57.centage points in just reuse. That is as a result of direct financial
:59:58. > :00:03.support for extra tuition, on work support. The inspectors have shown
:00:04. > :00:07.it's made a difference. Particularly in primary school. The evidence for
:00:08. > :00:13.secondary is not as strong but for primary school it is strong. Can I
:00:14. > :00:16.just read from a report from the National Audit Office in last year
:00:17. > :00:19.it says the pupil premium has yet to have any identifiable effect and I
:00:20. > :00:21.it says the pupil premium has yet to quote, since the attainment gap has
:00:22. > :00:25.it says the pupil premium has yet to narrowed since 2011 it remains wide
:00:26. > :00:29.and at this stage the significance of the improvements remains unclear.
:00:30. > :00:33.He said it also had considerable potential to make a big impact.
:00:34. > :00:38.Which is not the same thing is actually having had an effect. The
:00:39. > :00:44.closure of the attainment gap is quite clear, others have identified
:00:45. > :00:47.it has closed the attainment gap I providing direct support for
:00:48. > :00:56.children who need extra help at school. Let me put you what the
:00:57. > :01:01.dangers C. EU guv call last year found that less than half of
:01:02. > :01:06.teachers. The pupil premium help disadvantaged children. A
:01:07. > :01:09.considerable number thought it did help disadvantaged children is the
:01:10. > :01:13.opposite side of that too so I think it is pretty clear to making a big
:01:14. > :01:17.difference. Another point and you would have to concede that by some
:01:18. > :01:21.measures, particularly on A-levels, the evidence is that the attainment
:01:22. > :01:24.gap in England has actually increased over the past few years. I
:01:25. > :01:32.except by wider measures it has closed slightly but by other
:01:33. > :01:34.measures it has increased. I have already said the difference in
:01:35. > :01:38.secondary is not the same of them primary. We have started this
:01:39. > :01:41.programme in the last four years so we have yet to see the full benefit
:01:42. > :01:48.of investing in primary school and in later years. It is at least
:01:49. > :01:53.unbeatable? It is debatable but the evidence from a number of people has
:01:54. > :01:59.shown that it has been a significant difference closing the attainment
:02:00. > :02:02.gap in primary schools. That will feed through to the secondary
:02:03. > :02:09.schools and make a big difference in later years. The problem is that if
:02:10. > :02:14.it is debatable and not straightforward, the problem is you
:02:15. > :02:20.want us all to pay more tax for it. This is part of what we want more
:02:21. > :02:23.tax board. I would disagree with your description of the pupil
:02:24. > :02:29.premium I think it is much more certain than that. If you want
:02:30. > :02:32.people to pay more tax you must have witty uncontroversial evidence that
:02:33. > :02:38.what they are to pay tax board will make a difference. It is providing
:02:39. > :02:42.for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds, you are say that will
:02:43. > :02:46.cause a problem but I think investing in children when they need
:02:47. > :02:52.it most is what we need to do to make a big difference to people in
:02:53. > :02:55.Scotland. It is a massive cut to our education system, they have done it
:02:56. > :03:00.to colleges already and have not been able to feed through to the
:03:01. > :03:03.nursery education and now they are to slash budgets in schools and I
:03:04. > :03:08.want to go in the opposite direction. Why do our taxes have to
:03:09. > :03:15.go up? In the UK Government you did not put tax up to pay for it? You
:03:16. > :03:20.had a much more difficult position in the UK in 2011 than you have in
:03:21. > :03:25.Scotland now. We managed to find it in the south. There has been no
:03:26. > :03:28.indication they are trying to find the money to invest in education and
:03:29. > :03:31.therefore we will put our money where our mouth is. Why not find the
:03:32. > :03:36.money somewhere else? Budgets and where our mouth is. Why not find the
:03:37. > :03:40.incredibly tight, we believe it is cut to the core and we also believe
:03:41. > :03:45.we should be reinvesting in children at this time and with a modest
:03:46. > :03:51.increase of 1p on income tax we can have a big effect. Another thing
:03:52. > :03:52.will be to end dressed in colleges, in nursery education. I do not
:03:53. > :03:56.understand why you need to put tax in nursery education. I do not
:03:57. > :04:07.up. You have conceded given the budget passed this year 17 slash 18
:04:08. > :04:13.with the B time it would make a difference. Assuming you do it would
:04:14. > :04:18.be 17/ 18. You could shuffle spending around, take money from
:04:19. > :04:21.reserves, it is probably some flexibility by that time to transfer
:04:22. > :04:28.some capital budgets to borrowing and to use the money to... For your
:04:29. > :04:33.pupil premium. Why do you have to put people's taxes up? You made it
:04:34. > :04:37.sound very easily that you can just shuffle a few things around and
:04:38. > :04:41.magically create different call money but it does not work quite
:04:42. > :04:44.that. The Conservatives are promoting massive cuts to the
:04:45. > :04:48.Scottish budget and we want to do something about it. We have done
:04:49. > :04:52.much more than when we were in government at Westminster. I want to
:04:53. > :04:59.invest money and people agree with me.
:05:00. > :05:14.The reserve being held at the moment is just ?9 million. ?500 million of
:05:15. > :05:19.cuts are coming to our schools and it will impact on every year, that
:05:20. > :05:24.is not think schools can put up with when we are falling down the
:05:25. > :05:30.international league tables of educational performance. We used to
:05:31. > :05:35.have them best educational system in the world and now we're just above
:05:36. > :05:40.average. That is not nearly good enough and that is why I want to
:05:41. > :05:45.make Abe the Wallasey offer. It is important and you cannot just
:05:46. > :05:50.dismiss it as shuffling around to magic of money. I didn't dismiss it,
:05:51. > :05:56.I suggested there might be other ways of winding the money. There's
:05:57. > :06:02.also a macro economic reason for not putting taxes up, every economist
:06:03. > :06:07.says we are heading for a slowdown, surely the last thing you want to do
:06:08. > :06:13.is take money out of the economy. You want to get the right talents of
:06:14. > :06:17.tax and spend and you ignore the economic impact of investing in
:06:18. > :06:23.education. There are massive skills gaps, businesses are crying out for
:06:24. > :06:29.skilled workers. I am not ignorant that, the SMB say the art investing
:06:30. > :06:35.in education, just not what you have come up with. They are slashing
:06:36. > :06:40.budgets to colleges, they have butchered the college sector in
:06:41. > :06:46.recent years and I want to put that right. We need business is with
:06:47. > :06:53.skilled people to create jobs to pay the taxes that will keep the economy
:06:54. > :06:58.on track. If we ignore that side of the balance sheet we will be in even
:06:59. > :07:03.worse economic conditions than now. I want to ask you about Alistair
:07:04. > :07:08.Carmichael, would you be happy for him to be a candidate for the
:07:09. > :07:13.Liberal Democrats in a future election? We are sometime or from
:07:14. > :07:18.that decision. Alistair will make his own might up but in the meantime
:07:19. > :07:27.he is getting on with representing people. But the Liberal Democrats
:07:28. > :07:32.pose as being the honest people, cleaner, straightforward, what you
:07:33. > :07:35.see is what you get, but you have already experienced a new terminal
:07:36. > :07:40.collapse of voters because of tuition fees and the Alistair
:07:41. > :07:48.Carmichael situation isn't helping. It is not good in to say it is up to
:07:49. > :07:53.Alistair Carmichael, it is up to the leader of the party that wants to be
:07:54. > :07:57.different from other parties. I have an election campaign to fight in a
:07:58. > :08:02.few weeks, I will discuss Alistair's future with him after that. The
:08:03. > :08:08.election is four years away. I am trying to get on and grow the number
:08:09. > :08:15.of Liberal Democrats in the Scottish Parliament, we need strong Liberal
:08:16. > :08:21.Democrats to stand up on education and mental health, issues that evil
:08:22. > :08:27.are crying out for a proper political debate on and it is my job
:08:28. > :08:32.to put that case so Scotland can be the best again. We will have that
:08:33. > :08:40.discussion later. Willie Rennie, thank you.
:08:41. > :08:51.I almost said retired historian that he is about to publish a new book.
:08:52. > :08:54.was an outspoken supporter of the Yes side
:08:55. > :08:57.Now he says that the SNP hasn't addressed the economic weaknesses
:08:58. > :09:00.of its case to become an independent nation,
:09:01. > :09:01.and that Brexit shouldn't be the catalyst
:09:02. > :09:06.Well, he's here with me in the studio to answer that.
:09:07. > :09:11.You haven't changed your mind, have you? Not on the principle of
:09:12. > :09:14.independence, to change my mind after that after all the
:09:15. > :09:20.soul-searching in 2014 would lack credibility. But you did say if
:09:21. > :09:25.there was another one, let's say Britain voted to leave Europe and
:09:26. > :09:31.there was another referendum, you said you would abstain. The
:09:32. > :09:37.intellectual case for another referendum at the moment does not
:09:38. > :09:40.stand up. My concern in terms of somebody who voted for independence
:09:41. > :09:47.a couple of years ago is that such a move would be counter-productive,
:09:48. > :09:51.and it might result in the parking of this major issue for the future
:09:52. > :09:56.of this country for a very long time in the future because there is no
:09:57. > :10:01.evidence at the moment, there may be in opinion polls to come, but there
:10:02. > :10:07.is no evidence at the moment that there is yet the clear breakthrough
:10:08. > :10:13.for the Yes vote that I think is necessary for a rerun of September
:10:14. > :10:17.2014. But if they did have another referendum, to abstain is hardly
:10:18. > :10:22.helpful to the cause. Abstain means, the reason I said that is because
:10:23. > :10:27.they are not convinced there should be such a thing. If it comes to the
:10:28. > :10:32.point and things seem to be changing as we go down that road, clearly I
:10:33. > :10:36.will have to rethink my position, but we're a long way from that now
:10:37. > :10:42.because all the signs are, despite the current league that the out
:10:43. > :10:50.campaign has in England, I think it is highly likely there will be no
:10:51. > :10:54.Brexit. If there was, if we did leave the EU, one of your points is
:10:55. > :11:02.that you think from your research for your book that the European,
:11:03. > :11:10.joining the EU was one of the things that bound England and Scotland were
:11:11. > :11:17.loosely, so could the UK outside the EU actually re-forged the UK? It
:11:18. > :11:22.could inflame and stimulate some of those elements of the border which
:11:23. > :11:29.are totally opposed even to devilish and, because the elements south of
:11:30. > :11:34.the border who were so extreme, your skip X, they have little time for
:11:35. > :11:41.Scottish devolution, far less independence. What side are you
:11:42. > :11:47.taking in the Brexit debate? Personally I want to stay in because
:11:48. > :11:53.I think isolation in this particular juncture in world or European
:11:54. > :11:57.history is not a good idea. Like most people I have major criticisms
:11:58. > :12:04.to make of the huge and giving your rocker says. -- burgeoning
:12:05. > :12:09.bureaucracies. But you clearly do not think people in Scotland feel
:12:10. > :12:17.strongly enough that if the UK vote to leave, that would change the
:12:18. > :12:22.odds. I think the issue of Scottish independence is more fundamental.
:12:23. > :12:24.But you don't think people will say they will vote for independence
:12:25. > :12:31.because written votes to leave Europe. The future is not my period
:12:32. > :12:37.so to say that is speculation. At the moment there is no evidence that
:12:38. > :12:42.forwards it would produce a huge surge of commitment to independence.
:12:43. > :12:47.There seems to have been little discussion about the weaknesses in
:12:48. > :12:52.the Yes campaign, for example the issue of currency. There has been no
:12:53. > :13:00.debate since the referendum. Two reasons why I would urge caution in
:13:01. > :13:04.terms of what Nicola Sturgeon said, that almost automatically Brexit
:13:05. > :13:10.would result in another referendum on Scottish independence. The first
:13:11. > :13:14.is what we have discussed, the electoral dynamic for independence,
:13:15. > :13:20.a clear-cut majority over a period of time does not yet exist. That
:13:21. > :13:24.second think this what you have just brought up, the intellectual
:13:25. > :13:30.problem. The intellectual defence of the end of Hendon 's position has
:13:31. > :13:35.not yet sorted out. There has been no one tent made that I am aware of
:13:36. > :13:41.to address these major issues you talked about like that aren't say,
:13:42. > :13:45.like future Scottish economic development, especially since the
:13:46. > :13:48.fiscal position in this country has deteriorated since December 2014.
:13:49. > :13:53.I'll be back at the same time next week.